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Title: Interview with Rosa Jones (October 1, 1973)
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007167/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Rosa Jones (October 1, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: October 1, 1973
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007167
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 189

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
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        Page 2
        Page 3
        Page 4
        Page 5
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This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
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Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

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NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
DATE: OCTOBER 27, 1973
TAPE: ONE
SIDE: ONE
TRANS: PDS
PAGE: ONE
I: This is October 27, 1973. I am Lew Barton, interviewing for
the University of Florida's History Department, and the Amer-
ican Indian Oral History Program. Tonight I'm in the home of
Mrs. Rosa Jones near Magnolia School, in the Barker Ten-Mile
Area of Robeson County. The mobile home of Mrs. Jones is lo-
cated about 50 yards from Magnolia School on Highway 301. The
house trailer is located about 150 yards from the Magnolia
Trailer Park. Magnolia School, traditionally an Indian school,
was the largest Indian school in Robeson County prior to in-
tegration. Mrs. Jones has kindly consented to give us an in-
terview. And I'm going to aske her some questions about her-
self, also about something that occurred near here last night,


1g
NUMBER: LUM 48M
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: ...something very traumatic which occurred here last night.-
I: Would you mind telling us your name please mam?
S: Rosa Jones.
I: That's spelled R-o-...
S: R-o-s-a.
I: R-o-s-a, J-o-n-e-s. Of course everybody can spell Jones, but
we have to spell these words that, you know, that there's any
question about the spelling and so on. You've heard me give
the description of the location of your mobile home near
Magnolia School, was that correct?
S: Yes.
I: How long have you lived here?
S: Going on five year right in, right here. I've been around
here going on 13 year now.
I: Who were you before you married?
S: I was Oscar Barton's...I was Rosa Barton before I ever got
married, this last time that is.
2


10)
NUMBER: LUM 4i88
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: How old are you?
S: Going...
I: We shouldn't ask a lady her age, but we sort of have to?
S: I'm 56 or 57.
I: 57? You're quite a young girl yet. What was your father's
name?
S: John B. McMillan.
I: Have you always lived in Robeson County?
S: Always in Robeson.
I: Are you a Lumbee Indian?
S: Oh yeah.
I: Are you proud to be one?
S: Oh yeah.
I: We're both good Lumbees aren't we?
S: Yeah.
I: I spent the night with you here in my trailer, in your trail-
er. You were married to my father, which makes you my step-
mother. And of course you weren't here last night, but you
live in the community so maybe you could give us a little
light on a few of these things. Last night about two...
3


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: About 2:14, 2:15 around there.
I: About 2:15 a.m. I heard four shots ring out, and then I heard
a lot of women screaming to the top of their voices, and say-
ing the chief killed him, things like this. And this was
coming from the direction of the Magnolia Trailer Park. And
of course about 20 minutes later, we hear, we heard the police
car go zooming by. But I was very surprised that it took the
Lumberton police about 20 minutes to get out here after it
happened, after the thing occurred. And then later on we heard
from some of the neighbors, and of course this is just hearsay,
but you know you can't live in a community without hearing
something about what happens, especially something this tragic.
We heard that the owner of the Magnolia Trailer Park, what's
his name?
S: Edmond Harden.
I: Edmond Harden? Had been shot to death last night at this time,
and this was probably what the commotion was all about. So
I'm still pretty much shaken up about what happened.
4


NUMBER; LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: So am I.
I: It's a very tragic thing. What are the neighbors saying
about it Ma?
S: Well, they're saying they arrested three, had to arrest his
brother.
I: And what's his brother's name?
S: Walter, Walter Harden. Had to arrest him because he come in
a shooting concerning his brother you know, after he'd...
I: That is after this occurred?
S: Happened, yeah.
I: And then, you know, after the killing then somebody else...
S: His brother came in.
I: ...came and started shooting.
S: But they had to arrest about three of them and put them in
jail.
I: Do you know who it is they have arrested?
S: Arthur Wynn.
I: Arthur Wynn, that's W-y-n-n.
S: Robert Wynn.
5


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Robert Wynn, W-y-n-n.
S: And Marshall Wvnn.
I: Marshall?
S: Yeah.
I: Marshall Wynn.
S: And Walt Harden.
I: And Walt Harden, now who is Walt Harden?
S: Edmond's brother, the dead man's brother.
I: Edmond Harden is the man who was shot?
S: Yeah, and this...
I: And he is the man who owned the Magnolia Trailer Park right?
S: Right.
I: And they don't, do they actually know yet who killed him?
S: No, they're laying it between the three boys. I don't know
which one t t_____
I: Between those three boys?
S: Three brothers.
I: Well now this is an eyewitness, sort of an eyewitness report,
and it's an exclusive report too, because we were here on
6


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: ...the scene, or this close to the scene, and heard this
much of it. There's nothing here that's make what we heard
of any value in a court room or anything like that. And
there's no danger of us going, having to go to court. We
don't know a darn thing, do we?
S: No, no.
I: I don't want to get involved in that. But you can't stay
close to something like that without hearing some of the
things, Some of the things you hear may be rumors.
S: Yeah, it was so close though, there was no way to keep from
hearing it you understand.
I: Right. So I'd like for us talk about it a little bit, then
we'll get back to talking about you. This Edmond Harding,
you've lived near him, this is the dead man.
S: Yeah, He was just a fine guy I liked him see, everybody liked
him
I: Everybody liked him?
S: Yeah.
I: That's what I understand.
7


NUMBER: LUM -- &W
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: He was really thought a lot of.
I: I heard something else, now this, do you know which one of
the trailers in the trailer court that this happened?
S: At Thomas Wynn's trailer.
I: This was at Thomas Wynn's, W-y-n-n, at Wynn's trailer.
S: It wasn't on the inside, it was on the outside. They was
pitching a party you know.
I: And I understand this was sort of a going away-party for...?
S: Thomas.
I: Thomas Wynn.
S: Yeah.
I: Who is Robert Wynn's brother?
S: Brother, um huh.
I: Uh huh, was this the way you heard it?
S: Yes.
I: And nobody knows exactly what happened do they?
S: No they didn't, they only told they don't know which one out
of the three did the shooting.
I: Still don't know which one of the three, but they think one
of the three did it?
S: Yeah.
8


Inc
NUMBER: LUM 44W
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: How about Robert Wynn, was he...
S: Thomas' brother, all three of them, four boys was brothers.
Robert, Arthur, Marshall, thomas, all them ere___
I: The American Indian Oral History Program is getting an ex-
clusive report this morning.
S: Yeah ~Gi k A)
I: So I sort have ah instinct about things like this because
I've worked with newspapers so long. And I like to rush right
out to the scene, and see what's happened when something hap-
pens usually, but when I hear shooting and stuff like this
I'm not too eager to get near as much.
S: Yeah, it don't pay either.
I: Oh, I couldn't get anybody to go with me over to the trailer
park last night. I doubt if I would have gone, but if I'd
wanted somebody to, nobody is going to rush into something
like this
S: You could've got Earl to gowit>j, but not anybody.
I: No, that's my half-brother Earl, no, Earl's got better
sense than to rush into something like that. But it's just
9


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: ...a coincidence that I was over here when this thing happened
isn't it?
S: Yeah.
I: That's about all we know about what occurred here last night.
But I wanted to mention that on this particular report for
the American Indian Oral History Program because...
S: Yeah, he was g 1 i for the Indians anyway, he
was really interested in us.
I: Yeah, he was a very loyal Indian, wasn't he?
S: Yeah, he was well thought of in lots of ways.
I: Well thought of.
S: Yeah. Well he's, just tell it like it is, he's the body man
around here, what I mean by, well-when it comes to doing
business work, he was the man for that.
I: He was sort of a leader in the Magnolia Community?
S: Yeah.
I: The Barker Ten-Mile Area?
S: Yes sir, he's a business man.
10


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: By the way, that name Magnolia is spelled, you girls who are
copying this, it's spelled just like the flower, M-a-g-n-o-l-i-a.
And then the Barker-Ten-Mile Area I have to spell this for
the girls who type this up. This Barker-Ten-Mile is,
B-a-r-k-e-r T-e-n M-i-l-e, Barker-Ten-Mile Area. And
A A
this is where Magnolia School is located, and of course
your trailer as we said, is very close to Magnolia School.
We can walk out, and walk to the door there.
S: Oh yeah, you can chunk and hit it.
I: You, yeah you could, it's within a stones throw of the school
itself. I wonder how they're getting along with integration
over there now, Ma have you...?
S: Well I don't hear any complaints. It seems like everything
is going all right as far as I know.
I: Do you know if they have, now we know this is an Indian school
traditionally, and it, as I said a minute ago, it was the
largest school among the Lumbee Indians. And who was principal
over here for so long? .
S: Well, you mean the longest one?
11


NUMBER: LUM -gA
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Um huh.
S: Mr. Epps, Mr. Frank Epps.
I: Mr. Frank Epps, E-p-p-s, he's been over here for many many
many years.
S: But he's ^'CSV'H now.
I: But he's retired now. Who's principal over here now?
S: I don't know. What's the principal's...?
U: Brooks.
I: Which Brooks?
U: I don't know the first name.
7TA P PAeo LP& ^
I: Oh yes, we've got that straightened out now, we know that
the first name of the principal of Magnolia School, a Mr.
Mark Brooks,;-M-a-r-k, and of course that word Brooks, Brooks
is a, well a lost colony name. By the way it's English,
B-r-o-o-k-s, just like the brook. I wonder how many, about
how many students go here to school now, do you have any
idea?
S: No I ain't. There used to be about 1,500 I believe out there,
but I don't think there are that many now.
12


NUMBER: LUM 1AS
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Uh huh, but it is a large school yet isn't it?
S: An old building, it's really large yet.
I: Do you think they have more Indians over there than anybody
else?
S: Oh yeah, they've got more Indians there than anything else
out there, that's for sure. They don't have...
I: Got fewer black people perhaps than anybody else?
S: Yeah. Well I believe they've got fewer white than there are
anybody else.
I: They've got fewer whites than anybody else? Maybe a few more
blacks than whites?
S: Yeah, T ^tAk So .
I: And more, still more Indians than anybody else.
S: Yeah.
I: Well of course this is an Indian community, so if you go
according to geography, and take those things into consider-
ation, I guess that's very natural because. Don't, do you
think more Indians live in this area than anybody else?
S: Yeah.
13


NUMBER: LUM -_X
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: So I guess it's just about, the school enrollment is probably
made up according to the population here.
S: Um huh.
I: You don't know how many teachers they have out there do you?
S: No I don't.
I: Now this was a very tragic thing that occurred last night.
Does this man who was killed, Mr. Harding, does he have a
family?
S: Yeah, he's been divorced, but he still took care of his
family you know, and then was remarried.
I: Uh huh, he was married a second time? Did you have an op-
portunity to go to school very much Ma when you were coming
along?
S: No. Along back in them days they didn't care, you know, the
parents didn't care, the young 'un didn't care, the parents
didn't care why there wasn't much going on, your daddy didn't
drive you to school, make you go if you didn't want to go,
that's the way it went. And it was a little old school anyway,
about 25 or 30 probably went to f Luuf ferns iLh a ao/.
14


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: And those who went probably didn't learn too much?
S: No, no they didn't want you to learn too much.
I: Of course you were married to my father, can you, do you
remember very much about him.
S: Oh yeah, I remember he was a fine man, I'll have to say he
is an outstanding man. He's excellent.
I: Did a lot of people come to him for help, and writing...?
S: Oh boy, he helped, he just, he was a, well he was the help
end of the community, I'll say it like that. He really help-
ed a lot.
I: And my father of course, your husband, didn't have an oppor-
tunity to go to school much himself did he?
S: No, but he really...
I: Did he ever tell you how far he went?
S: Seventh grade.
I: About the seventh grade?
S: But he really knows his Ae .t -C A,
I: But he studied at home, read a lot, he read all the time?
S: Yes sir.
15


NUMBER: LUM IA
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Studied. Of course papa liked to study books he considered
to be practical, but not just stories, but something that
would do him some good.
S: That's right.
I: Something like on law, on medicine, or business, always very
practical about it. He had, he'd have medical volumes, and
law volumes, and things like this.
S: He had any kind of book mostly you wanted to see, he mostly
had them you know.
I: He was sort of a book worm.
S: Yeah.
I: How many children are in your family now, you and papa's
family?
S: There was nine.
I: Nine.
S: Nine, and there was ten of you all. Three, was it three in
his first family?
Now papa of course had, was married three times in his lifetime.
And the first time he was married to a lady and he had two
children by...
16


NUMBER: LUM *0S
r*~~ ~~SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: There was three, there's one of them died.
I: Uh huh, and that was David and Gloria.
S: Gloria. And Lisa I believe he said.
I: And Lisa?
S: Um huh.
I: Uh huh, and Lisa died. Then he and my mother were married,
Kathryn Ann Dial Barton,1whotwasr the daughter of Marcus Dial.
S: Marcus Lowery.
I: Uh huh. This, they lived in the Prospect Area, and there were
seven children in that family, right? And of course I should
know more about that than any...
S: Seven of you all?
I: Uh huh, there were seven of us. There were six girls and
one boy, and that's why I was spoiled so rotten. It was all
those girls kind of spoiled me I guess, and momma too. Then
my mother passed away quite a few years ago, I don't even
remember the year she passed away, do you. It's bee a long,
it's been about...
S: It couldn't have been '46.
17


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Somewhere along about 1946?
S: I believe it was in '46.
I: I know it was, I went to the Navy, it was before I went to
the Navy.
S: Um huh.
I: I came home in '46, it must have been earlier than that.
S: It must have been about '44, '45. Anyway that's been a long
long time. It seems like it's been forever. What are, could
you give us the, I'll bet you couldn't, now this is really
asking you for a lot Ma. I'll bet you can't give the names
and ages of all your children.
S: I can give the names, but can't give their ages.
I: Their ages are always changing you say. And so when you ask
somebody something like that it's really harder, it's really
more difficult than you think, because their age is one
thing this year, next year it's another thing.
S: Now the oldest one, Mary, she's going on 35, no, she'd
have to be going on about thirty-....
I: How much older than Earl is Mary?
S: About two years.
I: Uh huh, and he's, how old do you say Mary is?
18


NUMBER: LUM 1i<f
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: Going on 35.
I: Well that would make Earl about 33 wouldn't it?
S: 33.
I: Uh huh, now come on with the next one.
S: Billy, no, wait a minute, yeah, Billy.
I: How much time is there between Billy and?
S: About two years, about the same.
I: Uh huh, so that would make him about 42?
S: hirty, about thirty.
I: I mean about 30.
S: Yeah, about 30.
I: I was thinking about years there, I'm all mixed up. I'm still
shook up about that shooting ma. Let's see, who comes next?
S: Evon, Eva May. She died, she was next to Billy.
I: Uh huh, do you remember the year she was born?
S: I can't remember that.
I: And who came before she came on?
S: You mean after?
I: Yeah.
S: Nina was after her.
19


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Nina. Nina's the one who, she's always been so darn pretty,
and we always teased her and spoiled her, and she's always
been so very Intelligent too. And it was Nina's little
daughter, seven years, nine years old.
S: Um huh.
I: Kim?
S: Um huh.
I: About whom we had a story in the newspapers not long ago, and
also she sent me a poem, you know, that I published in my
poetry column. And Nina's little girl Kim, is well, her I.Q.
is well over 180. She's a, she's actually in the genius class,
and of course Nina tries to keep this a little bit a secret
from her. She doesn't want her to know how smart she is,
because she figures it might spoil her a little bit. But
she's so smart, you don't keep anything like that hidden
from her do you?
S: No, you couldn't hide anything from her. She's so sensitive,
she can catch right on to anything.
20


(0
NUMBER: LUM IHE
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Um huh, she could sit down right now and discuss the Bible.
S: Or anything.
I: Anything you want to talk about. And if you ask her to do
something, she wants to know why she should do it. And this
is, this is, reason, if you've got a good reason, you don't
have any trouble with her, but if you don't have, she might
give you a little argument. She doesn't give Nina much argu-
ment.
S: Now she could give you a good interview.
I: Yeah, I wanted to interview her and Nina, but I didn't get
a chance. Nina promised, but she got away before I got to
interview her. You know I was over here one day talking,
speaking about Kim, I said, "Kim, will you walk out there
in the garden and bring us a tomatoe" You know, I wanted a
fresh tomato out of the garden. She says, "Unc, what's
wrong with you, why can't you go yourself?" I said, "Baby,
Unc's vision is bad, and he might have trouble finding one
around there." And I said, "I'll go if you don't want to."
"Oh, oh that's all right, I just wanted to understand. I
just couldn't understand why I should go instead of you."
21


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: But she's like that, and it makes, it makes a lot of sense.
S: Yeah, that does.
I: She's not arrogant about it, but she's just...
S: Un uh, got to know the details about anything.
I: She wants to know, and she will find out all the details too.
S: Oh yeah.
I: She, her teacher wrote of her one time, said, "We're going
to have to build a special school for Kim."
S: Yeah.
I: She wrote that in her, she wrote that on her report card I
believe, or some written test, I.Q. test wasn't it?
S: Uh huh. I think that'll go down in history.
I: She's really smart. How many children do they have?
S: Just two.
I: Just the two of them?
S: Um huh, two girls.
I: What's the other little girls name?
S: CQrista.
I: Cxristla?
S: C/rista Lynn.
22


NUMBER: LUM 8A
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Cristia Lynn,. and it's probably spelled C-r-i-s-t-i-a. Of
course they live in Media?
S: Um huh.
I: They live in Media, Louisiana, that's near Baton Rouge.
S: Um huh.
I: And Nina has always been a very unusual child. I wanted to
interview them when they were home, but I wasn't that for-
tunate. Nina hadn't been home in two years, and she was, had
so many things to do.
S: Looks like she never could find the time for it.
I: Right. And when you come home in a situation like that, of
course everybody wants to see you, everybody has something
planned for you.
S: Yes sir, just keeps you on the ball, going all the time, she
just didn't have any time.
I: Do you want to talk a little bit and let me check my tape.
S: O.k.
I: It's doing all right, o.k., I checked it, it's doing o.k.
Now tell me something about the other children. What's un-
usual about some of the other ones, we talked about Nina.
23


NUMBER: LUM 2Lf
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: It's a wonder we hadn't spoiled her to death. Well she is
kind of spoiled.
S: Well along when they was all coming up, I didn't take time
to spoil none of them. Now your daddy...
I: You didn't have time...
S: Your daddy did all the spoiling. He really spoiled them all.
I: Well hellovedj.to-spoil children didn't he?
S: Yeah, but I didn't take no time you know, I just was on the
go all the time. I had so much to do I didn't take time to
spoil them. He did the spoiling. I didn't spoil any of them.
I didn't have no patience you know.
I: He was quite a guy.
S: Oh yeah.
I: He was very small in stature. Do you know how tall he was?
S: I was taller than he was, and I'm just 5' 3".
I: You're just 5' 3", and you were still taller than my dad.
S: Um huh.
I: Well he was very small. He wasn't a midget, but he was darn
near it you know. But he was quite a man.
24


NUMBER: LUM '
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: Oh yeah, he was an outstanding man. They ain't another one
in a million like him. I just have to say it like that. There's
not another one in a million like him.
I: Well he was a good even-tempered, good even...
S: Good, yes, good going and everything. He was just a man all
the way around.
I: Did everybody in the community...?
S: Loved him, just loved him to death, and he was well thought
of, thought well of.
I: Well he never was sick very much in his life probably.
S: No, he always had good health.
I: And when he got sick...
S: That was it.
I: Yes, it didn't take long. He went to the hospital, and right
away.
S: He stayed in the hospital ten days.
I: Yet he was always...
S: I believe he would have lived, but I, have a orderly give him
the wrong blood you know, I believe that's what happened.
25


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Yeah. Well that's too bad. He was about 76 when he died wasn't
he?
S: Um huh. He was still a man too.
I: Well he was unusual. Of course he loved all his children.
S: Yeah.
I: Now let's see, we'll have to stop and count up to see how
many children he did have.
S: Alone, the other sides and all, I counted it at 21 head.
I: 21, my daddy was the father of 21, now that's something isn't
it?
S: Well...
I: And he loved every one of them)didn't he?
S: Yes, he always would speak about CAJI / a4^
and think well, so and so, I think I'm so and so's daddy.
I: Would he tell you that ma?
S: Oh yeah!
I: Good gracious alive! You didn't get mad?
S: No, I wouldn't get mad over nothing he had done before.
I: That happened before your time didn't it?
S: Yeah. It didn't worry me a bit in the world.
26


NUMBER: LUM -A
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: And of course he was much older than you huh?
S: Yeah. Now he had children old enough, you know Goldie is old
enough for my mother, and my grandmother almost.
I: Yeah, but you kind of fell for each other didn't you?
S: Yeah.
I: Well these, those things happen.
S: He wouldn't let go. One thing about him, he just wouldn't
let go.
I: He found who he wanted, and he clung to you didn't he?
S: yeah.
I: Well that's good. I think that's the way it should be.
He was quite unusual in many ways.
S: Yeah, he was a business guy.
I: He could do as much work as....
END SIDE ONE
27


NUMBER: LUM 4
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
DATE: OCTOBER 27, 1973
TAPE: ONE
SIDE: TWO
I: This is, this is side two of the tape on Mrs. Jones. Ma we
were talking, when this tape ran out, and I was so engrossed
in what we were saying and talking about my father and you,
that I forgot to check the tape. And we ran out of tape, and
we lost some of our material. Do you remember what we were
talking about.
S: Yeah, we was talking about your daddy, about the accident he
had at the mill.
I: Uh huh, now this was a very tragic thing which occurred. We
were talking about how people loved my father who worked
with him. And he always ran a saw mill all his life. He would,
this is what he loved to do. He ran the saw mill, and he was
what you call a sawyer, and of course he was the man in
charge. And the people who worked with him loved him, but
they said he worked the devil out of them ma.
S: Yeah.
28


NUMBER: LUM --
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: I think I told this on the other side of the tape, but we
lost it, about what happened to me when I worked with him
three days, and I couldn't stand it any longer. He begged me
not to take a job with him throwing slabs, you know, behind
him, because he kept that carriage going, and it was one
piece of lumber after another. And of course we, tell us
again about this man who, the accident that occurred to
him you know, when we were stopped.
S: Really I, it seemed like his name was Bill or something. I
used to think of his name right easily, but...
I: This was a black man wasn't it?
S: Yeah, he was a black man. He said he had to talk to him and
talk to him about riding down on the carriage and back.
I: He had the habit of getting on the carriage and riding back
and forth.
S: And he said, that day he said he didn't know anything, when
he knowed anything something was just hitting him in the face.
And it was blood and meat and bones. Said he just sort of,
said he happened to look, and said he stopped the thing all
of a sudden, and there that man was laying on the saw, just
29


NUMBER: LUM Brtt
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: ...split open.
I: Uh huh, the saw just about cut him in two?
S: Yeah. It just split him plum open.
I: Of course this grieved papa.
S: And the man was just looking right straight at him, but he
was dead then. There was no help for him at all.
I: Uh huh. I've heard, I don't know for sure, that when some-
body dies in a violent way that they die with their eyes open.
Or people, do people die with their eyes open?
S: No, not all, everybody that way. But he did, that one did.
He said he was just looking at him just like, just like to
say that he did it you know on purpose or something. He said
he looked at him so hard, you know, or maybe the man was just
really-hurt. And that was the only place he was looking at
the time I guess when it happened to him anyway.
I: Papa was hurt very deeply with this wasn't he?
S: Yeah, he was really hurt over it.
I: So many tragic things happen, but sometimes some funny things
happen too. You know, like the time one of the men was work-
ing with him at the saw mill. Started complaining about what
30


NUMBER: LUM 6"
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: ...his wife sent him for dinner. My wife didn't send me such
and such a thing. And said, "Now listen, you just wait a min---
ute, your wife sent you just exactly what you bought for her
to send. Don't you talk anymore about your wife." Said, "If
you want better lunches, you buy her better food." Something
like that. Tell me that about the lunch box again.
S: Oh, he was taking, always packed-his'lunch .in-ailardbbucket.
And he thought I had his lunch packed, and he, when, he just
took the lard bucket and went on. And when he got ready to
open his bucket for dinner, he had the bucket of lard instead
of lunch. He didn't have any lunch at all.
I: In other words, when he went to work, he went, he took his
dinner in a...
S: Lard bucket.
I: Lard bucket for a lunch pail.
S: Yeah, um huh.
I: So this day when he got there he just had a bucket of lard?
S Yeah, and he was cut off!
I: Oh gosh.
S: I know he was __ _
31


NUMBER: LUM G8tf
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: I've made some terrible mistakes, but I think that just about
caps me. He was, he never was discouraged or despondent or
unhappy.
S: No.
I: Wasn't he a very happy person ma?
S: Yeah, he was a happy person. Full of life too. All the time
he was, didn't seem like he'd ever get tired. He could work
all day, and put all the young uns to bed when night come
just like he hadn't worked a bit. They'd all pile up on him
after he'd eat supper, every one of them, all three of them,
there was three of them yelling at one time, and they'd all
go to sleep right on him.
I: But he loved children.
S: I'd ask him, I'd say where's my room now, I said there needs
room, needs one more, and I'd say where's room for me.
I: They had you shut out there hadn't they?
S: Yeah. But he enjoyed them kids.
I: He always liked to have children around him didn't he?
S: Yeah, he loved them. And if he didn't have but one egg for
32


NUMBER: LUM 48A
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: ...breakfast, everyone of them kids got a piece of that egg.
I: Yeah, eggs were kind of special weren't they?
S: Yeah, and he had to have eggs every morning. And if there
weren't but one, all the kids...
I: He would share it.
S: Yeah, he shared that one egg. I've seen him do it more than
one time.
I: And of course he came along during a time when it was very
tough ma.
S: Yeah, he had it tough I'd say-all of his life. He never did
have it easy, never had an easy life at all.
I: I've seen him o to town on Saturday, and walk back, and
bring his iS_ rS on his shoulder. He didn't
have a ride.
S: He never had, he never had an easy life.
I: And he never lived very near town either.
S: No.
I: He'd always be about seven or eight miles from town.
33


NUMBER: LUM gA
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: That's right.
I: And you never heard him complain.
S: No, he didn't complain. He weren't a complaining person. I
don't think he wanted anybody else, if there was anything
wrong with him he really didn't want nobody to know it.
So I'd keep teasing him.
I: Did you ever hear him tell ghost stories?
S: Oh yeah, I heard him tell a lot about ghostes.
I: You know ma, there's a suspicion, a superstition among the
Lumbee Indians, that if you are born with a +rMrover your
eyes.
S: Well he said he was.
I: A f-a-u-l, faul, this is something you know, that happens to
some children, are born that way. I think this a part of the
placenta, or after birth, whatever it is, But this old super-
stition says if you're born with a taul over your eyes, then
you're gifted to see spirits.
S: Yeah.
I: And so my father was born this way, did you ever hear him
say this?
34


NUMBER: LUM -- '
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: Yeah, I heard him tell it many a times, about seeing things.
I: Now tell me, tell us about some of the things papa saw.
S: Well one time he said he had to take his granddaddy on the
buggy, catch a train I believe. He was going to Pembroke,
somewhere, I think it was Pembroke to catch a train. But he
had to leave home four o'clock that morning. And he said
going on,the way he didn't see anything, it was coming back.
He said on the way coming back, he had let his grandaddy off,
and he said he seen a little old boy. He said, well the way
he talked, he would have been about nine year old from what
he could tell youuknow. But he said he had something, a
dragging it, had it in his mouth, like a sheep skin, and
said it was dragging it, and went over the edge of the road
ditch. And he said he beat that mule, and he said he was so
scarred he didn't know what to do. And he said he laid the
whip to that mule so he could get home. And he said his heart,
this thing was lit up, he said it had a light in it, into it
somewhere.
I: And this was, he was just a boy at that time himself.
S: Yeah he was a boy.
35


SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW ARTON
NUMBER: LUM -_88K
I: Did he tell you how old he was, I've forgotten.
S: No, I've forgot.
I: You know ma I wrote that story, and tried to remember it the
way...
S: He told it.
I: Papa told it. And they published that story in the November
1971 edition of the North Carolina Folk Lore Journal I believe
it was. And now they've published several other stories in
there. People are interested in things like this. These are
folksy things you know. What our people believe, their super-
stitions, their traditions, but before electric lights came
may0_3_ yo knoL & A '-
along especially, there were many around as you kno
S: I think so. He told me about, he had an old Model T car,
old A Model, T Model, whatever you call it. But anyway, he
said he was going, had been to see somebody that night. But
anyway, he said he was coming along, and you know where the
Collins' Mill is?
I: Is that Lacey Collins?
S: Yeah.
I: Uh huh.
36


NUMBER: LUM !A
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: Well yeah, not
I: Near Leach Stewarts mill pond?
S: Yeah, yeah. He said coming along there he said he hbt some-
thing that night. And he said it was just like a big cow you
know. And his car just stalled, just stopped. He got out and
he looked, and he said he hadn't seen a thing. And he got
back in his car, cranked the car up, went right on, and
whatever he'd said he'd hit, it caused the car to stop. And
he said he never could figure out what it was, and didn't
see nothing.
I: Did he ever tell you about what happened to Liz and I, Liz
and me when we were kids?
S: No, he never did. Was it about a sewing machine or something?
I: Yeah.
S: Oh yeah! He told me about that. Cit^JhSD
I: Yeah. How did he tell you, I included that in my story, it's
called "Meto Tales Along The Lumbee," by Lew Barton.
S: He said you went to an old house somewhere, I forget who he
said had lived in the old house, or was it in the woods you
37


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: ...found it? It was his old house I believe.
I: Um huh, it was at Harm, the old Harmony--school house.
S: Yeah, yeah that's right, a school house. He said you went
there, said you told him like the day, says, "Daddy," said
"there's a sewing machine down there," says, "I would like
to have it, like to bring it home." Said he told you, I don't
know if he give you release to bring it home or not, but any-
way he said you brought it home anyhow. And said that old
sewing machine sewed all night. He said that's all he could
hear, that machine all night that night.
I: And you know I had taken it apart, I always would take an
old clock apart to see what made it tick.
S: Lord! now my young uns did the same thing always. I could
tell what they'd got ahold of, they tore it apart to see
what was in it.
I: What makes it work.
S: Yeah, I didn't know where they'd got that from.
I: Just plain old curiosity ma. It's a part of...
38


NUMBER: LUM ^A
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: And he told you that morning when he got up, he says, "You
better..." said, "you better have it gone from here tonight
when I come back." Said, "That machine is leaving here." I
I: Right. r-
S: And he said you'd have to take it, and you took it away.
I: Of course we'd taken, I'd taken it apart, and it couldn't
possibly have sewn in the first place.
S: But he said it did. He heard it all night, that machine runned
all night long.
I: But he said that was the spirit of those old people, you know,
that lived in that old abandoned house where we got the mach-
ine. He said that was the spirit of those people, who cmae
back there and wanted their machine back, and Liz and I had
better darn well take it pack, and we did. We were both kids.
S: He could tell some of the hedonist th ngs about things
like that.
I: Ma, sometimes you use, some of the words used among the
Indian people are different. They're different from the words
used among the white population here, or the black population
here, like this word, hedonist.
39


NUMBER: LUM ie
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: Yeah.
I: This, you won't find this in the dictionary, it's an Indian
word evidentily. And I'm interested in things like that be-
cause this is part of our history you know. There's another
word you use sometimes, it sort of amuses me, this word klig
mean ma?
S: I don't know.
I: Is it a low type of person?
S: Yeah, that's what I think it is.
I: Sort of like a hussy?
S: Yeah.
I: If you say somebody is a klig...?
S: Yeah, this klig, what I meant by kligs, they would be someone,
like somebody would steal something :o de- for stealing )
or slummy, you know what I mean, just slum people.
I: Now a person that steals of course is a rec.
S: But I call them a klig, this klig, that klig over there,
something like that.
40


NUMBER: LUM -- eft
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Yeah, but you pro, you had to pick that up from somewhere you
know. And I've heard it used before.
S: Well most of the Indians use it.
I: Yeah. Like land you know, swamp land is called percosin,
percosin land, but this means swamp land. It's very rich. And
people would say, "Down in the percosin." Now this is a, this
is definitelyan Indian word. And there're other words like
that.
S: Yeah, and and all such.
I: Some of those words are old English words which directly tie
into the Elizabethan period, and other words which tie into
the Alogonquin language among our people. But we've used
these words so long that they don't seem unusual to us.
S: No, they don't to me.
I: I don't talk very much like the typical one of our people,
because I try...
S: You've got so much more education that a lot of the other
ones don't. That makes a difference.
I: Yeah, I think, I'm not ashamed of it, but you know when you're
in Rome you have a tendency to do as the Romans do.
41


NUMBER: LUM J8
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: Uh huh.
I: And so people automatically pick up a language like the lang-
uage of the other people. So if I'm in Rome, I try to talk
like Rome. When I talk among our people at home, I talk just
about like they do. And when I get, I've got two languages.
S: Yeah.
I: When I'm off among other people, I don't want to sound odd
or unusual, I try to put on my best language. And of course
the English language is my field. I've studied in that field,
and I've written all my life, so I have had some conditioning
and training in that direction. Ma Honey, I could just sit
and talk to you all day long. It's always a joy to talk with
you. And you never run out of things for us to talk about.
S: And the time Billy, in the w&WSwent and shot the big old
hawk, and thought he had shot an eagle, a eagle I think.
I: An eagle?
S: Yeah.
I: He thought it was an eagle?
S: Yeah.
42


NUMBER: LUM- l8^
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: And it was a hawk?
S: Yeah, a big old hawk. He says, "Well daddy, I've killed a big
eagle." He said, "Oh God! You know you ain't killed one. .
He said, "Yes it is daddy."
I: And what happened, did papa laugh at him > S t l___ ?
S: Yeah, they had a ball. He had a ball awhile, and he kidded him
a long time about killing the eagle, saying itswas an eagle
you know. He'd tell it a long time for a joke you know.
I: Does Earl feel bad about that?
S: No, they got a kick out of it. Oh, killed an eagle!
I: Did you ever the story about what happened to Amster Locklear
you know?
S: I did hear it, I mean I knowed about it, but I can't remember
too much now about it.
I: It's kind of a ghost story about Amster sitting out on the
porch one night.
S: Oh yeah, that, uh huh.
I: And had been hunting and had his shotgun sitting there beside
of him.
S: Yeah, ma heard you know, a lot about his Momma hearing, you
43


NUMBER: LUM -- A
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: ...know, coming up whistling, and whistling, and like that.
I: But anyway, there's a tradition among our people, a superstition,
that if a ghost or a haunt strikes you, if you see it it
won't bother you, but if it ever hits you, you're going to
die, and' that-very quickly.
S: Yeah.
I: But this, on this particular day, this particular evening,
it was late dusk, and Amster, A--m-s-t-e-r Locklear was sit-
ting on the porch, had been out hunting, and this figure of
a man walked up, and had his hands behind his back. And he
had a brush he brought out from behind his back, struck
Amster full in the face with it.
S: No, I never heard of that.
I: And this so angered Amster that he immediately picked up the
gun and fired point blank into the back of this retreating
figure. And he was so sure that he had killed somebody, that
he went through the community searching for this person, but
he never even found any footprints. But the end of this is
that soon afterwards, Amster Locklear was killed. His
father-in-law killed him. But ma, it's very tragic that there
44


NUMBER: LUM 8
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: ...is so much killing among our people.
S: Oh yes.
I: People getting killed, and I don't know if this is part of
a pattern of frustration, or what it is, but we certainly
have our share of it don't we?
S: We sure do.
I: And this is why this thing last night, or this morning, hurt
so bad, because it reminds me how easy it is for something
like this to happen. Let's see how our tape is running. We
have just a little more tape. You have anything else you'd
like to answer?
S: I only think I don't know too much more.
I: It's always interesting, and this is in the field of folklore,
you know, the ways of our people, the way they are living,
the way they act, the traditions, their way of life. We don't
live a lot different from other people. But there are ways
which are typically Lumbee Indian ways.
S: Yeah.
45


NUMBER: LUM -J
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: And they're different from the two other ethnic groups in
the area, and I'm interested in the cause of this. We talked
about the lost colony so much that Dr. Proctor said, "Lew
no more lost colony stuff." Because people talk about this,
and this is an old, the oldest tradition among our people.
Of course there're many other. What he meant is that we
should branch out and talk about other things as well you
know. Because there are many interesting things. Our people
could always ma, do anything they wanted to do, and do it
a darn little bit better than anybody else, don't you think
that's true?
S: Um huh, yeah.
I: Now this is cotton growing country, and we've lived here all
of our lives. How much cotton can the average person pick a
day?
S: Well my average was around about 400 pounds a day.
I: God ma! Could you pick 400 pounds?
S: Yeah, I could pick four. I could pick 350 every day of my life
just about. I didn't come under it. I could pick that, and
all the babies that night.
46


NUMBER: LUM IS
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Oh ma!
S: Yeah, that's right.
I: You know of course, I was always sort of a black sheep, I ;
never was much good in the field doing anything. I used to
plow a horse, a black mare named Nel, and I know Nel was
very happy about my ways, because I'd have a book stuck in
my pocket. Get in the shade at the end of the row.
S: You'd want to sit down and read and rest.
I: Read a little bit, and rest a little bit. And I'm sure Nel
was very close to me because of this.
S: Yeah.
I: But of course we didn't have a very large farm at that time.
I could fool around and still plow the front. But 500 pounds
of cotton ma, isn't that unusual for anybody to pick four
and 500 pounds? That's very unusual.
S: Now Mark Bullard, he was the 500 pound man around Prospect.
I: Well how about his sister, Alice could do that too?
S: Yeah.
47


NUMBER: LUM tgA
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: But ma, nobody else, nobody else other than an Indian could
pick 500 pounds of cotton.
S: Oh no, no!
I: Or 400.
S: I'd put the Indians up against any of it, when it come to
any field work.
I: Ma I couldn't, I never picked 200 pounds of cotton in my life.
S: God knowed I have, a million of them.
I: And I've worked just as hard as I could work it seemed to me.
S: She never could, her average was 100 pound a day. If she'd
get 100 she was getting good. She was the slowest cotton
picker I raised.
I: So I'd say the average person picks about 150, and if he
picks 200.
S: Around Prospect there they did, well kids and all.
I: Well that's different, that's the Indian community.
S: My young uns would pick, my, you take Rosy Carrol, and Dial
and all of them would pick 200 and something every day.
I: But you know, I've seen people, you know, hire people to
come in from other groups, say black people, truck loads,
pick...
48


NUMBER: LUM-
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
S: No, they wouldn't do nothing.
I: And I noticed the average would be so different from ours.
S: Yeah.
I: And ours was:so much higher.
S: They'd get 75 pounds, very seldom one would get 100.
I: But it takes a lot of work to pick 100 pounds of cotton.
S: No it wouldn't.
I: It might not for you ma,
S: It was just a...
I: But I never picked, I tell you, I never picked 200 pounds of
cotton in my life.
S: It was more or less in your mind, you didn't want to do it
you know. If you didn't want to do it, you just couldn't do
it. You couldn't do it if you didn't want to.
I: It takes will power doesn't it?
S: Yeah, you've got to have that will power. I really loved to
pick cotton. God knows I did. Good cotton, there wasn't noth-
ing I could've done any better than cotton picking.
49


NUMBER: LUM- 'g
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: You just enjoyed working, didn't you?
S: I enjoyed it, really did.
I: That's good. Of course you've always been a smart girl, what
we call a *,.
S: I love picking, I could pick cotton day and night. When I went
and stayed with my daddy, we'd pick all day, and pick 'til
12 o'clock that night.
I: Uh huh.
S: And I loved it.
I: Well, not many people like you ma.
S: I really loved picking cotton. Couldn't suit me no better.
I: Now what's the average size of a, what we call a one horse
farm, a two horse farm, about how much land is that ma?
S: About, let's see, it'd be around fifteen or twenty acres of
cotton, about ten, maybe ten or twelve acres of corn And
wheat land if there's one, there's maybe two or three acres
of wheat growing. A garden and such.
I: But all that's changed now hasn't it? I mean since machines
camery came in?
S: Well along...yeah.
50


NUMBER: LUM 4Mtv
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: Where are you working at now ma, let's put that on.
S: Converse.
I: Converse?
S: Rubber company.
I: That's at, that's at the plant near Lumberton?
S: Um huh.
I: ABout how many people do they have over there would you guess?
S: Well about 1,500.
I: About 1,500 people?
S: Yeah.
I: Would you say about half those people are Indians?
S: No, I wouldn't say that.
I: About a third?
S: Yeah, about a third Indian. There're more colored than there
are anything else out there.
I: Is that right? How about conditions out there ma. Of course
you're used to hard work. You've worked hard all your...
S: Well, the work ain't all that hard, you know, for most of
the people it's not. Some of the work, the cutting department
is about the hardest, I think it's that way.
51


NUMBER: LUM ---8tA
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: The main thing is you have to keep right at it.
S: Oh yeah. Well, it depends on what you're doing. Depends on
what, well now if you're on these here belts, all right,
say the making line, where they're making those tennis shoes,
you've got to stay right there.
I: Because that belt just doesn't stop and wait for you.
S: It, no, they don't want you to, no, they don't want it to
stop. You have to keep with it.
I: Uh huh. Do you think our people are getting a fair shake with
Converse rubber company? Do you think we're getting as much,
as many of our people hired over there as the other races?
S: Yeah, they have as much chance as anybody else has.
I: That's good ma.
S: Yeah, they have their chance. They're not stuck up about who
they hire, and they're not anything about that.
I: What they're interested in is who can do the work?
S: Yeah, that's right.
I: And do it well.
S: That's right.
52


NUMBER: LUM '
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: But you know that plant originally came over here, was a
Goodrich plant, and they sold out.
S: Uh huh, they just changed it last year.
I: Right. And the reason they came over here, one of the reasons
is the Indian people, because they can get lots of people to
work.
S: Um huh, they had heard the Indians was good workers.
I: Right. And then they didn't have labor union troubles in this
county.
S: No, they didn't have that.
I: They still don't have, not serious.
S: No, but they have tried to get in you know, over there. They're
still trying.
I: Yeah, they're still trying to get in.
S: Yeah.
I: And it's all right when they do get in.
S: I don't like it there, I don't want no union.
53


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: You don't need a union do you ma?
S: I don't want no part of a union.
I: You're going to do what you're supposed to anyway aren't you?
S: That's right. I just seem like I don't want to have nothing
to do with a union.
I: Uh huh. Well unions are good in some cases, but they have
their drawbacks.
S: Yes.
I: Well you know this tape...
S: About out ain't it?
I: Yeah, it's about out. You've been so very sweet to talk to
me ma. You are a sweet girl, you know that.
S: Oh, I didn't think it was that easy, I could have been ____
I: An interview, and you were backing off because you thought
it was sort of difficult.
S: I cd- to be so intelligent and all, I don't know.
I: Oh no.
S: _A_0_ -s
I: This is the beautiful thing about these interviews. It's,
they're natural and spontaneous. And we don't want, we don't
54


NUMBER: LUM -
SUBJECT: ROSA JONES
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
I: ...want them polished. We want them that way. We want to just
sit down and talk heart to heart with people, and mind to
mind you know.
S: You see, I thought it had to be so intelligent, and I just
couldn't do that way.
I: Oh ma, you're intelligent. And you're sweet too. You're a
sugar lump, you know that?
S: Don't put that on there.
I: Well you're my ma, my step-mother, and that's the truth about
you. And I'm going to put that on there, that I do love my
step-mother.
S: That's o.k.
I: And I want to thank you for giving us this interview.
S: Yeah, and I'll give you another one quick as a pin.
I: All right ma. And thankyou very much.
END OF INTERVIEW
55


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