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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 147A
Taylor interview
Marlene Locklear
Side 1. 1
T: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I'm recording for the Doris Duke
Foundation under the auspices of the University of Florida for
the American Indian Oral STudies Program. Today is August 2,
1973. Today I'm in Woods Department Store and with me is an
employee who works here. I'd like to say that it's been very
gratifying the cooperation we've had from these girls' supervisor
who has made it possible for them to give an interview on
company time.so to speak or, if they want to, or on their time
either way. But he's been most cooperative and so have the
girls. I just wanted to mention that in this opening. Would
you tell us your full name please, and spell if for the
benefit of our readers and listeners?
S: Yes, ma'am, it's Omalene;lLocklear Steen. O-m-a-l-e-n-e. Last
name is S-t-e-e-n.
T: Steen is a name that you don't hear too much around here. Did
you marry somebody that's local or did you, or is it someone out
of the area?
S: Well, his father is out of the area. His father is a white man.
T: Um, huh, and what, is he part white or part ...?
S: He's part white and part-Indian.
T: Well, then I can sare that feeling. Or that, rather that, I guess
it's a being more than a feeling sometimes. 'Cause my father
LUM 147A
2
is part Cherokee, whereas my mother is-lndian. What part of A the
country does he come from? *Did you meet him here in Pembroke?
S: Yes, ma'am, I met him here in Pembroke, but his father's from
Hamlin, North Carolina.
T: How many children do you have?
S: We have two. We have a son, ten, and a daughter, eight.
T: And give us their names. I think names are interesting.
S: Mauy Linda Steen and Clisby R. Locklear. I had the little boy
before I'd gotten married.
T: I see. I have run into that sometimes too. The difference in the
kids and the names. And they all say, well, my momma got
married, but I didn't. It amazes me the way children explain things.
You have two children. Let's see. Do both of them in school?
S: Yes, ma'am.
T: How do you feel about the education :i system here in Pembroke? DO
you think it's getting the job, or is it educating our children?
And tell me the schools that your children are atteVing.
S: They attend the grade school. It's not the kids,I don't think,
the majority of the time. It's the teachers Most of them they're
there for the dollar. That's it. They don't have no interest
in the kids whatsoever.
T: Do you ... what do you think as a parent, just one parent, you
could do about it? I mean, are you willing to get involved to
do something with other parents? What could you do perhaps?
S: Well, right at the present I don't know, but, for example, I helA
LUM 147A
3
my daughter back into the second grade another year. And it's be-
cause she wasn't, to me she wasn't ready to go on.
T: In other words, you're saying the teacher promoted her, but you
flet ...
S: She would have.
T: Yeah.
S: ... but I wouldn't let her.
T: Because you didn't feel she ...
S: She was not ready to go on. And if they don't get it in the lower
grades like first, second, or third, they keep passing them, it's
no good. They'll never get it.
T: It's arsocial promotion, in other words, and they don't really ...
S: They just push them on, send them on, get them out of the way
so they won't have them next year.
T: And don't have the tax dollar so the kids ... I agree. They're ...
what do you think about ... do you think teachers, is it their
training? I know that we have, you knew, this university here that
... a great deal, many teachers come out. Is it teacher training
or is it when they go out on the job they get so disappointed with
it or what? As a parent, from what you have observed ...
S: Well, from my standpoint I think it's that they just lose interest;
in the child, you know, in their work. You know.
T: Yes.
S: Whereas if they would, you know, show a little interest in the child
like kind of encouraging it to go on, you know, and do things. I
LUM 147A
4
think the child would catch on eventually and go ahead.
T: Um, huh. Well, I agree. They certainly need a pat on the back,
all of us do-every now and then or we'll just kind of lax off.
D: And, too, I think another thing. There be too many kids sometime
in one classroom for one teacher.
T: Un, huh.
S: You know,,she can't take up the time with the kids like she should
T: Overcrowded classrooms. Well, this could maybe, do you think
cuase the teacher sometimes to lose interest when she feels that
she's spread so thin?
S: Right.
T: ... and can't .... I'm not surepwhat means would you go, maybe
organizing the parents do we not have an organization like
that for parents who are interested in their children and ; wanting
better education that you know of at this frll ?
S: No. It's the parents, I think, like the mothers, you know, would
it
get together, you know, and try and do something abouti,you know.
T: And meet with maybe the teachers or something.
S: Right.
T: I1 De they have parent-teacher meetings over here? I know some
schools they do but I don't ...
S: I think they do. I'm not sure.
T: I heard some say if they did it wasn't very well attended.
S: There you go.
T: So it might, that might be \_6 '"
LUM 147A
5
T: You've been working in Woods now, and I know-you've worked other
places because I've seen you around town. How long have you
been employed here at Woods?
S: Since March of '73.
T: March of '73.
S: Um, huh.
T: And where did you work before that?
S: Little Giant in Pembroke and also in Lumberton.
T: The Little Giant, that is sort of a chain grocery store.
S: Right.
T: I guess they : have it, I'm not sure they have it in every area,
but I ... % Qli go to Florida sometimes, you know, things
we take for granted, other people wonder what in the world are
they talking about, you know? So that's ... the Little Giant
gorcery store is sort of a convenience store, I guess. What made
you change and decide and come with Woods?
S: Well, my very first reason was I had too much responsibility.
Alot of times I'd go work at seven and work till eleven at night.
T: Those were long hours. With a family?
S: With a family, too.
T: Well, you just didn't hardly have time for yourself at all.
S: Right- See, I'd have to open the store at seven. Well, I'd
have to drive all the way to Lumberton. And it was just a rat
race all the time.
T: I can see.
LUM 147A
6
T: Well, did you, did your husband pitch in and help with the
housework or anything?
S: No, ma'am.
T: He's not one of these that sees anything that needs to be done?
Are the children old enough to help?
S: If I just, you know, stand behind 'em they'll pick up their clothes
you know, and do little things like that for me. Every once in
a while I let them wash the dishes, you know.
T: Well, every little bit does help, I can see. You're much happier
here because you live in Pembroke do you not?
S: Yes, ma'am.
T: And you feel ...Now in working those long hours were you paid
overtime in all this?
S: Yes, the pay was real good,
T: Um, huh.
S: But in the long run it's not worth it.
T: It's not worth 'the wear and tear on the nerves and all the other
things that you have to think about. Other than you don't
see your family either much, do you, at times?
S: Right.
Strickland
T: How do you like working for Mr. / ? He's an Indian manager
here. You know, a lot of people think that Indians who are in
positions of authority, when they get ready to tell you something,
they're sort of harsh and get on the warpath so to speak; there's
LUM 147A
7
been alot pf propaganda about that. How do you find him as a
boss man?
S: For me to say for him hisself he is as fine a man who ever
lived. He treats one just as he treats us all. If he's
got something to tell us, he tells us in a nice way. He don't, you
know, like well, you got to do this or you've got to do that.
We know we have it to do. He tells us. We go ahead and we do it.
T: Do you think that he ... would you class him as a man who has
leadership qualities, able to lead people you know, and wanting to
do ...
S: Yes, ma'am.
T: ... do things. Have you ever known him, seen him in a mo-
ment of anger?
S: No, ma'am.
T: Never?
S: Never. Never.
T: Have you ever wondered what is he like to see him angry?
S: Yes, ma'am.
T: He must probably all of us they say have some kind of temper,
but maybe he's just one of those people who know when and how to
control it.
S: He seems to be the same thing, you know, every time you see
him, he's in a nice mood. He always speaks to you, you know.
T: I don't think we got established what, in this instance we
LUM 147A
8
are on an Indian study we have to get you to get race conscious
in the sense that we like to identify, uh, what race do you
identify with?
S: Indian.
T: And would you class yourself as Lumbee, Tuscaroora, or what?
SRobeson County Indian or ... we like when we say American In-
that .
dian / encompasses many tribes and many groups I
find that they're.coming in from all, you know, all places so
we don't assume that even though I know it we have to get it
on tape, you know.
S: Well, I'm just me. I'm an Indian. What kind I can't say.
T: You don't classify as Lumbee or what... or don't prefer ...
S: Well, that would be as close as I know, you know.
T: In other words, you'd rather ... if you had to be identified
... identification's sake, say, you'd say Lumbee rather than
Tuscaroora?
S: Yes, ma'am. e k(4A rc
T: What do you think about this band or this group that's pulled
out, a small segment,too. When you read it in the newspapers
I think it's blown up and sounds like maybe the whole town or
the whole county down here has gone on the warpath and people
get all, you know, scared, this kind of thing. But it is a
small group of people that pulled away from what, what they've
been going by is Lumbee mostly ...?
S: Right.
LUM Y 147A
S9
T: How do you feel about it? Do you think they ... I mean, per-
sonally speaking you know, ...
S: I think what they're doing may be right, but the way they're
doing it is the wrong wrong way. There's a right way and a
wrong way to do anything. And they're doing it the wrong, wrong
way.
T: Okay. Now we know, you know, I know the way and you know the. way
they're doing it, but again for the benefit of those that
don't know exactly what we're talking about, what do you mean
by the wrong way? Describe some of the ways that they're
/i La the things they're doing.
S: Well, just.Jlike for instance the night up at the college when
Old Main burnt. To me that as stupidity. That was ignorance.
T: Do you feel they had a part in causing it to burn?
S: I don't know but they had no business out there dancing around aIz4
"I * O I'a h nd all this crap.
T: Oh, I wasn't aware of that. While the building was burning they
were doing that?
S: Well, see, they had put it out. It was on a Sunday night and
the building was still smoking. There was a bunch of them out
there beating drums and marching and a whooping and a hollering.
T: Well, I didn't hear about it till the next day. I don't know
why. Till it had been put out. And I live right near there.
But I didn't hear that. I don't know. I must have really
been sleeping that night. Could have been out of town part of
LUM 147A
10
the day. What did this say to you? ... just showing them-
selves or what, what reason do you think they did this?
S: Well, they thought they were doing something big. They thought
they were saving Old Main, which Old Main had already
burnt.
T: Did they seem to think it was a victory celebration or what?
S: I don't know what they thought it was. But to me it was wrong.
T: Yeah. What in your mind everybody has an opinion, I guess it's
all we can have really because it's just a big question mark,
I don't think anything officially has ever been established, what
do you think, or who, or what group do you think it was involved
in the burning of Old Main? If you have, you know, if you have
an opinion, you probably, I guess, A/,i
wonder why in the world would anybody want to do that and,
you know, you come up with some, some reason within your
mind true or otherwise, but it's your opinion that we want
you see. So it's not, can't be a right or wrong answer ...
S: I hadn't- got the slightest idea.
T: In other words it's just a big question ...
S: It's just a big question, and I can't answer it.
T: Well, I think that's the general feeling of everybody. I know
I think about well, why would an Indian do it after we fought
so hard to try and keep it and then ...
S: Right. Well, what reason would a white man have to do it?
He wouldn't have any whatsoever.
LUM 147A
11
T: That's right. It seemed to be ... someone said they thought
that if an Indian or maybe even a white man burned it or had
some part in it that they was probably paid .a good price.
S: They had to be...
T: Something like that could have been
S: ... if it was.
there are
T: We speculate on it, but you really don't know. We know / such
S things as arsons, that people just like to see fire and ...
S: Right.
T: It's hard to ... I don't think the police even if they had any
information, they're certainly keeping it secret. Did you
feel that the building was worth saving? Did you want to see
it '* down?
S: No, ma'am, it would have been nice if Old Main could have been
saved, but the condition that building was in there's no way
he could have been saved.
T: In other words you don't think it's worth all the bother and the
trouble,people getting so hot and so on, and the money tha it's
going to take to restore it ...?
S: It would have been nice, but, you know, if they could have built
one aIC just like it, you know. But why should they save
that one in the shape it was in? I mean, I'd like to see one
just like it there, you know what I mean.
T: In other words, just tear it down and rebuild it the same style?
S: Right, right.
LUM'147A
12
S: But the way it was ... termites had eat it, it was rotted. How
could you wave something like that?
T: Um, huh, I understand what you're ....it's more expensive, I guess
probably, than it would be to b i d. it from the very
beginning. So long as it k looked the same.
S: Well, they'd a had to torn it down anyway to rebuild it 'cause
they couldn't, they might could have saved the front part but
.that would have probably been all.
T: No-aoubt: Maybe use some of the bricks, I think they'd use old
bricks and all.
S: Yeah.
T: How do you feel as a woman, you know, women's lib is on the
scene now. Do you feel as a woman you're being, and particularly
an Indian ; woman, that, have you ever felt discrimination since
you've, have you lived here all your life?
S: Yes, ma'am.
T: Andyou went to school,:where did you go to school?
S: At Pembroke High.
T: In.your experience in growing up, we'd like to get these things,
you know, out in the open, how people, you know, really feel.
Sometimes we bury them, and I can see it's not always good to
dwell on them, but it's good for people to know how other
people feel about it, if they was hurt or what was ... can you
remenmer any time during your growing up when you felt you were
discriminated against? First of all maybe because you were
LUM 147 A
13
an Indian or maybe if you went out of the area say, Lumberton
or somewhere, or Red Springs 4hAI OC-( anywhere?
S: No, ma'am.
T: You never felt any discrimination whatsoever?
S: Not that I remember.
T: Have you ever felt any recently, even today?
S: Um, huh. (no.)
T: Cu{p C(-CeCA ).
S: I'm a type of person like this. I try to treat the other person
regardless whether he's white, black or brown, as I would have
them treating me, you know?
T: Um, huh.
S: Just like if one walks in the store I'll say, well, good morning,
you know? I don't care who he is or where he comes from. But
I'll be nice to anybody as long as they be nice to me. You
know.
T: give and take in other words.
S: Right. Well, people ought to stop and think, God could have
made us white or God could have made us black. We're all
equal in his eyesight.
T: That's right. Well, I've often said people who get so up in
arms about what kind of blood we got in us, be it red or black
or white or whatever, that this woman said, she says, it don't
matter what you are, you still got red blood.
T: But there's not much good to get upset about it 'cause there's
LUM 147A
14
not much you can do about it.
S: Sure is not.
T: I think, do you feel proud to be an Indian?
S: Yes, ma'am.
T: ... couldn't help from, you know, there might have been a time
when, do you think in your growing up, uh, there might have
been a time when you wouldn't have said that as readily, do
you think?
S: Uh, huh. (no.)
T: You've always felt proud to ... .
S: I've always flet proud to be an Indian. And always will.
T: Well, that's great. I know some people have felt that it's, they've
been discriminated against because they are Indian and maybe\his
is why you have this bright, shiny smile all the time. When you
come in you can tell a person's attitude sometimes by the, you
know, just their countenance, the way they look. How do you
feel about : l your children, do r you feel they get fair treat-
ment in school since, ... excuse me, they're integrated with
the different races?
S: As long, I don't care if they're in a classroom with white,
black, or whathaveyou, as long as they're, you know, treated
equal. You know, don't treat, let's say the white child better
than the Indian child, or the Indian child better ... they all
should be treated equal. You know, the same opportunities and
everything.
LUM 147 A
15
T: Were your children young enough when integration came along,
does it bother them much? Do you remember anything they said
about ...
S: They didn't ...
T: ... a black child, maybe or a white child or something.
S: They didn't pay it any mind. They were too young.
T: I think they'd take it if parents sometimes would stand back
out of the way. They could handle :it a lot better than we
could.
S: Yes, ma'am. That's right.
T: 'Cause they don't ... after while don't see it like we do some-
times, or make as much out of it. Let's see, some of the laws
that's in the making now, abortion, for one, it's been legalized
in some states. I don't think it's been How
would you feel about this person as a woman? Do you think
abortion ought to be legalized?
S: No, ma'am. I look at it this way. If a girl can get out and
get a baby, she can have it and look after it. If she has
an abortion if she gets rid of that child she'll die and go
to hell. That .baby did not ask to be got here, did not ask
to be ; brought into this world. And it's against the law; it
may not be against theilaws of the land but it's against
God Almighty's will. And I do not believe in it.
T: A It's a matter of religion, right?
S: Right. I just don't believe in it.
LUM 147A
16
T: Many people have said they thought women should be able to
choose the destinies of their own bodies, do you feel that ...
if a woman maybe to have a child would cause her some evil
ill effects to her health or something that it could be justified
ever?
S: Well, if it was a matter of her life or the baby's life, you
know, it just depended on it, I would say go ahead, but that
is the only way -- a matter of life or death.
T: How long now have you been married?
S: Almost nine years.
T: Almost nine years. So you .-: pretty well no what it's all about,
don't you?
S: Yes, ma'am.
T: You know the young people today talk about trial marriages and
you have children coming up, and Lord knows, the times change
so much, we don't what it's going to be like when they start
it
dating and so on. But from the way you see/and what we know
about it today which seems sometimes it's very little and it's ...
like the kids say that trial marriages is the thing, that
nobody, you know, really gains by divorce. How do you see
that? You get all kind of arguments, in other words, it's
sort of like a license, getting license, or driver's permit,
you know, you say, well, you get a license to have a trial
marriage for a certain number of months and if it doesn't
work out, you just go separate ways or something like that.
LUM 147 A
17
Would you see that this could benefit society or would it tear
it down any?
S: In a way I think it would. In a way I think it wouldn't.
T: You think it would benefit and would not.?
S: Right. 'Cause a lot ...
T: Why do you think it would?
S: Well, a lot that would benefit by it maybe if they would stay
say, for
together/six months, you know. Maybe they could go on for the
rest of their lives, you know. Be happy and stay together.
T: ... anything like living with them, you can be around them
all the time .(Q 2-i< -W but it's different from living with
them.
if
S: Right. And then on the other hand, maybe if they, well,/I
stayed with this man, say, three months,- well, I can't get
along with him.
T: Personality difference.
S: Right.
T: It's not >to say you're wrong, or he's wrong,...
S: Right.
T: You might be different.
S: And jIL-L you could get up and go on as long as there
was no kids involved. But as long as a child was out of the
picture, he'll be fine and well. But I don't think it would
be worth it to bring a child, say you stay with a man say, six
months, nine months or a year on a trial basis, you get pregnant
LUM 147A
18
and have a baby. You're destroying that baby's life. 'Cause
he'll say, well, where's my father. Where's my mother. See,
I lived through that with my son. He'd look at me /I I4 11WAS
asking me about his father. In which I wasn't even married to
him.
T: You wasn't married to his father?
S: RIght.
T: Did you at that time and this is interesting because we dis-
cdssed it before and ... it takes a lot of courage and it says
sometkng about your character, too. You've J grown a
very wise woman. To be able to discuss it openly and I/M_ i_
~2 VfN- You know, without shame.
S: Right.
T: 'Cause really the child is something to be proud of.
S: UrC- tA honey.
T: And you wouldn't take any ...?
S: I wouldn't take a million dollars for him.
T: How did you feel when it first happened? Did you feel scorned
from ... did you get scorn from parents or people around you?
S: No, ma'am, no ma'am.
T: How was this handled in your family?
S: My mother was so happy. See, I was the only child. Well, I
had been dating this boy for three years when I got pregnant.
When the doctors told me I was so happy, I cried. I went
LUM 147A
19
and I told my mother and she cried. It was just, it was some-
thing of joy, you know, of happiness, something that was part
of me that was coming into the world. And she would have a
grandchild.
T: Well, now what about marriage? Did you think of marriage with
this child's father?
S: No.I'll tell you why. When I told him I was pregnant that was
in October, no, November;. We-hhd planned to be married in
March. And he looked at me that night. He said, if you ever
intend to marry me, you better do something about it. I looked
at him, I said, let me tell you something now. I said, I love
you more than God hisself, I said, but my baby comes first.
Goodbye.
T: In other words, he wanted, in order to marry you, he'd give
you an ultimatum and said either get rid of the child or ...
S: That was ...
T: In other words it would be an abortion.
S: That was the understanding that I got from him.
T: Did you... have you ever had contact, or has he ever helped
with the child's support?
S: Yes, ma'am, he supported him up until about two years ago. We
settled it in court. And he had denied him up until two i
years ago, too.
T: So you went to court. And did you release him, in other words?
S: I told him if he never wanted to give him another cent I
had won my battle. He knew then for sure that child was his.
LUM 147A
20
T: Well, is there any likeness there? Can you tell?
S: Yes, ma'am. There usually is, seems like. Seems like in people
who want to deny their children they'll always come out looking
just like a carbon copy of them almost.
T: That's right.
T: I think that's an interesting story and one that certainly
is strengthening. 'Cause many, I think, young girls, do find
themselves in this plight. Especially this day and age. We
say we live in a liberal age were there's you know, free
love and sex and this kind of thing. How do you feel? Evi-
dently you were not against, too much against pre-marital
sex. And I've heard people say that they would never marry
a man until they've had sex with him because this is not all
of marriage, but it is a big thing.
S: Right.
T: How did .you feel along these lines? You've had some _I I ...
S: Well, then, see that was my first love. And I loved the dirt
he walked on. Well, even after the baby was born I married
my husband when he was about eighteeen or nineteen months 64&.
if
And I guess it's just,/you love somebody you want to be with
them. You know.
T: Right. You want to be as close as J__'as humanly possible.
This ... you're talking about your first child's ... your
first love? In other words, it was just a feeling. To you it
wasn't a feeling whether it was right or wrong, it was just
LUM 147A
21
feeling that you, that it was right to be with the one that you
loved?
S: Right.
T: \Now did you run into any hardship in your marriage,in your
present husband accepting this child by, that you had with
another man? Did you, could you detect any, you know, feelings
that, I don't know, maybe resentment or jealousy or ... sort
of hard to label.
S: Yes. Many times. I have experienced this because I have a
stepfather. My son's got a stepfather. Any time a stepfather
is involved he will never be as close to that child as
he should be. Now like he and the little girl there's as
much difference the way he treats them as day and night.
But me, when I do for one I do for them both. When I buy for
one, I buy for them both. It's just there....I don't know.,*-.
It's not that he hates the child, you know, just he ...well,
you just sit back and see the difference. Or I can.
T: Not include him a lot of times and this sort of thing.
S: Right.
T: Well, do you think the child notices the 4 l 7'8 4
T\ as he ever mentioned it to you _
0 s lronf )
S: Sure, he knows L he knows.
T: What ?.. _
S: He don't, he don't pay it no mind. He just goes off. As long
as Momma's there, he's okay.
T: And how old did you say he is?
LUM 147A
22
S: He's ten.
T: Does he know that this is not his real father?
S: Yes.
T: And how old was he when you told him ?
S: I didn't tell him. Someone else told him.
T: By mistake? Did you want it told ...?
S: No, I always said that he would always know who his father was
and he would be taught to love his father.
T: But you wanted to do it, you felt at the right time maybe?
S: Urn, huh.
T: What happened? Some mouthy person ...
S: Honey, people from the time he was big-enough to sit alone told
him who his father was. He was, just growed up and, you know,
people telling him.
)b^ 7" I.(- y
T: If I if I get too personal .:.
S: Honey, AS/C CA Jy.
T: You just tell me because I don't want ... sometimes you can
say I'd rather not comment on it. But have you had any
occasion to see the child's father since? I mean, just in pass-
ing on the street or how do you feel about him as a person
today? If you had to say, maybe just socialize with him in
a group ?
S: I could.
T: You qcild.
S: But it was something I had to learn to live with. It took me a
long time but I finally overcame it. I can talk to him. I
LUM 147A
23
can and pass him and A wave at him. And it doesn't bother me.
But yet, now if he was, you know, if he was around me a lot,
you know, and I'd get attached to him again, it would start
all over again.
T: Well, has he since been married or have any changes taken place
in his life?
S: -Yes, yes. He has been married and divorced.
T: Was any children
S: No, ma'am.
T: So actually the child you had for him was the only child
that he has?
S: That's the only child that he has.
T: And he denied him up until ...
S: He denied him up until two years ago.
T: So maybe that says that he's made some progress perhaps, you
know.
S: He still acts as thought he has never been born. He'll speak
to him, but as far as coming to get him and take him places
and do things for him, no ma'am. He don't do it.
T: Does your present husband ever say anything about you know,
maybe like supporting the child > I _?
S: Well, I the last time were in court together the only thing
Joseph said about it, he said, : fed him eight years. He
said, we can go on feeding him the rest of his life. He
said, we didn't have to have his money, you know.
LUM 147A
24
T: Now Joseph is the name of your husband?
S: Right.
T: Okay- I believe you said you were a Locklear, right?
S: Right.
T: Before you married. Who was your mother and father?
S: My mother was Mary Lee Clark and my father was Percy Locklear.
T: Percy Locklear.
S: The name "Clark" is, it's in Pembroke, I hear it quite a bit.
Is it ... do you know if it's an Indian name associate r is
it CW/ /i 'Lost Colony name s I r4h that it took
on?
S: To tell you the truth, I don't know 'cause my grandfather was
a Clark on my mother's side.
T: Um, huh.
S: And his father was ... I just, I dnn't know.
T: The reason I asked some people maintain that Lumbees, or Indians
you know, within this area as a group, came from the Lost Colony.
S: Um, huh.
T: I'm sure you heard that theory. Do you agree with that? How,
what's your feeling on that? It's history. Its something
maybe that we won't ever know for, you know, for sure, but
there's pretty good evidence points toward that.
S: Well, I can't say because I don't know, you know. It's possible,
yes.
T: Well, I think there's been some research and Mr. Adolph Dial...
LUM 147A
25
S: Urn, huh.,"' A (t,,l
T: 4rf ^^^-^^' I think he's writing a book and, is in the,,you
know, process of writing research or doing research in connection
with this about ... I don't know when it's to come out, it might
be, you know, too far away. How did you feel about ...r you went
to an all-Indian school, right?
S: Um, huh.
T: Did you have all Indian teachers?
S: Yes, as far as I can remember, yes.
T: Integration came along with your children, right?
S: Right. Right before they started, right before they started.
T: Did you like most people at first try to keep it from happening
within your own mind? Did you resent the change at first?
Some people did, but then they realized like, I think you said
they realized they were going to have to integrate. hie-college
over here; there's just not enough Indian students enrolled to
support the .'. .
S: ,,Right. 1,,,
T: ... the ___ .Were you for that or against it? People
from outside come in.
S: Well, honey, as long as they can get an education, where and how they
do it, it's fine with me. Something like that you can't take it
away from a person, you know, it wouldn't be -'right. This,
this would deny him his rights. You know. Why shouldn't they
have a right up here? I mean I hadn't got a thing against
LUM 147A
26
white, black or nobody else. I mean, I just, I can't help it.
I'm just that way. If they want to put my child in a class with
colored children, it's fine with me. Just so they treat them
both alike.
T: Something to be learned from all ...
S: Well, sure.
T: Well, I agree with you, too. I've always said if we could appreciate
the differences,because after all, we're all people, and ...
S: Right.
T: ... we're alike in so many ways ...
S: Right.
T: ... ways we don't even want to admit sometimes.
S: There you go.
T: And yet we do, there is a differences. And I think if we're all
alike, it would be such a boring world, wouldn't it? Thank
goodness we're a little bit different in little ways, anyway.
Sometimes little ways ... ; J}seems like it's
little things that get us crossed up now and then.
Let's see, there's one or two other things I wanted to
mention. I can't ... bring them to mind V ght now. How
do you feel about, you know, who should have the say? Do
you think the father should be the head of the / house or
should it be on an equal ... ?
S: If he's any father at all, he will be the head of the house.
6v- PC
T: Or a husband. Would you, would you ... or is it this
Wu... oru isul it hi
LUM 147A
27
way in your home; would you say? Or is it sort of half and
half?
S: Well, I help him pay the bills, r- he helps me pay the bills.
You know. I guess you could say about half and half. You know.
T: Yeah. Well, it almost takes two now ...
S: It's got to take two, honey, er you won't make it.
T: ,,,With prices going up and up more so every day. What do you think
is the hardest thing on the family today? A lot of people say our
family, the thing of the family unit is going out of style
so to speak, or out / of structure. And that families are the
backbones of the nation. Well, we see this in divorces, and
some people don't even bother about the marriage part of it,
this kind of thing, but waht's the hardest thing in your mind?
And everybody's got a different answer. It's, it's, I don't think
it's probably right or wrong. What the hardest thing to keep, you know,
the family structure together? Think of your own little
present family.
S: WEll, there's only one way this can be done. That, say,
I mean just keep it together, and keep it perfect. That both
he and she if they're Christian people knew how to budget
everything just right, you kn ow.
T: Yeah. You're saying religion and money ...
S: Right. If they have a nice income, you know.
T: At least give'Jst, ik 4toC c a
S: Right. And just, like going to church and I'll tell you another
LUM 147 A
28
thing that help keeps the family together is doing things
togetherness.
T: Go on with that a little more.
S: Not letting one go one way, the other one go the other way.
T: He goes fishing and she takes the kids and goes swimming and
that kind of thing.
S: Right. They should do it together. Take those kids places to-
gether. Don't send them. Go with them.
T: Do you agree with this in the sense of going to church?
S: There you go. Don't send the kids. Get out and go with the
kids.
T: You say the whole familyrS oP.(,> 4
S: The whole family should go.
being
T: If it's not / too personal--what is your religion? How do
you, or what do you affiliate with ...?
S: I tell you, just like a told the preacher last night, no,
excuse me, night before last. They say, well, why don't you
come to church? Who don't you join the church? I said, "Jerry,"
i said, "I don't claim to be no Chtristian," I said, "but I'm
as good as alot of thv'e hypocrites sitting' up over there
in that church." I said, "They're going back'claimingr:they're
something which they're not." I:said, "I'm just out here
minding my own business." I said, "I'm not f 1tj j 'm 0
-i^>* to nothing I'm just j .
T: Um, huh. You believe in God, don't you?
LUM 147 a
29'
S: Right. ,
T: To what extent do you believe in Him? Is I.a personal
______ __ _ff_ you know, L;/ i i/c J o C ij0
-D keeping things going, or is it a personal 1A f'
_t__ J__ __ ? In other words, would you be a person to
say, well, I felt the presence of God / A, C V-4 7-
or something like this? Would that be a statement that you might
want to make or is it maybe not quite that close or tha\
S: No, God is somebody or a person that you have to have faith
in.
T: Um, huh. In other words, you have to believe There's a God.
S: You have to believe there is a God. And read the Bible. Just
as He said. It's the only truth. The faith of a mustard seed.
T: Um, huh. How did you feel about the decision maybe at that time
but how do you feel about it now? Do you think that they ought
to have prayer -) in school though? You know the Supreme
Court outlawed it because some woman said it was, she didn't
believe in prayers, she didn't believe in God and she want
the idea enforced on her children to believe something that
the family didn't believe in, which was God, you know. So
the Supreme Court then ruled that there would be no prayers
in the schools as such How do you feel about that? Do you
think that we should give our children a Ch.ristian basis
LUM 147 A
30
: you know,
as to prayer, at least/maybe have a Bible story and a little
prayer?
S: To me it would be fine, but there is so many other people who
wouldn't approve. You know, Like well, they don't believe in God,
they don't believe in this, they don't believe in that. But
to me there would be nothing wrong with it.
T: Um, huh. It would ...
S: Tell them a Bible story or something, you know.
T: Yeah.
S: 'Cause a child, you've ot to teach that child. 'Cause if you
don't teach that child he'd never know. What if the parent
well, don't teach my child. Don't pray to my child. Pray
for ... waht if the teacher said, well, I can't teach it to read,
can't 'teach it to write.
in
T: Well, maybe, hopefully, they're saying,/teaching them to read
and write, that they can then in turn read the Word or the
Bible story when they get a little older.
S: Right, if they ever get old enough they'll read it, and
you know, be taught to read.
T: Those that really want to learn it, I think sometimes, will
learn
get out, and you know, just /: it on their own. That some-
times it's harder for those that's held back. Do you
think as Indian people in this area that we've been held
back in any way ?
LUM 147 A
31
S: No, ma'am.
T: You don't think we've been held back in any way?
S: Well, it's possible, but I'm speaking from my standpoint of
view. A person has got to help his own self. He's got to kel
self before anybody else can help him.
T: There is a getting back to the Biblical, the Lord will help
those that help themselves.
S: 4C) I II they walk around here, they grumble about, well, we
ain't got an Indian this, ain't got an Indian that. Well,
why don't an Indian get up and go on to school and be an Indian
this or Indian that?
T: Get qualified.
S: There you go. They can do it just as good as ....
T: What about the ones that gripes about the white man's done
us this, the white man's done us that and spends his day
griping about what the white man has done to us, in other
words? But I mean he knows the problem. It seems like he
beyond to
needs to go a little/ what the solution is. I mean, do you
think, what I'm asking, do you think a lot can be accomplished?
I know history,in studying it you can't help but feel the
Indian has been done wrong with the white man in the past,
you know. .
S: Well, Z La 1 P ').
T: But do you think that that helps us just to dwell on that
and we not go forward ; just looking back "i saying, well,
LUM 147 A
32
the white man's done this and the white man's done us
wrong and he has *" '.
S: No, no, no, no.
T: We're not going to get it unless we get out there and ...
S: There you go. If you going to get out there and sweat and work
for what you do, you don't get nothing I don't care whether
you're white, black or brown.
T: What about the, you know, the Tuscarooras are asking for their-
schools back. But in so asking they don't get any federal
support. And what kind of schools would they have?
S: They wouldn't have no schools.
T: There's not that much money among them, it don't seem. They're
not that wealthy a people, are they? Do you IN' ]
S: No, ma'am.
T: And do you see them as educated, in the sense that they have
known as
education and, you know, know about what is / formal
education like 1 -0t8 to school. Would you say as
many as ten or fifteen of them finished college?
S: I seriously doubt it.
T: I believe it was fe t< who said he got V o r
S: He's as stupid as any of them. He's got no sense. He 6itA-
much got no common sense,
T: Have you ever talked to him or I,,
S: % no, and I ain't going to,.
LUM 147 A
33
I know some of them said they had just to see what it was like,
you know. But I jut wondered, you know, how, if you'd heard
about it or heard him speak or anything. But you've known
him in growing up, I guess, and come in contact with him.
S: My opinion of them peopler-they're from out of the backwoods,
they hadn't ever had no education, they hadn't ever been taught
what
no commons! sense. If they know w/ they want why don't
they go at it in the right way instead of the wrong way?
Just like going down before the board of education, standing
therekhooping and a hollering. That's stupidity.
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