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Title: Interview with Rose Mary Jackson (November 22, 1973)
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007123/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Rose Mary Jackson (November 22, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: November 22, 1973
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007123
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 136

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
        Page 1
        Page 2
        Page 3
        Page 4
        Page 5
        Page 6
        Page 7
        Page 8
        Page 9
        Page 10
        Page 11
        Page 12
        Page 13
        Page 14
        Page 15
        Page 16
        Page 17
        Page 18
        Page 19
        Page 20
        Page 21
        Page 22
        Page 23
        Page 24
        Page 25
        Page 26
        Page 27
        Page 28
        Page 29
        Page 30
        Page 31
        Page 32
        Page 33
        Page 34
        Page 35
Full Text



COPYRIGHT NOTICE


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limts the amount of material that may be
used.

For all other permissions and requests, contact the
SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
















LUM 136A

Miss Rose Mary Jackson (J)
Raeford, North Carolina

Interviewer: Lew Barton (I)
November 22, 1973

Typed by: P. F. Williams





I: This is November 22, 1973. I am Lew Barton interviewing

for the University of Florida's History Department's and

for the Doris Duke Foundation's American Indian Oral

History Program. This afternoon, I am privileged to be

in the home of Mr. and Mrs. David Jackson near Raeford,

North Carolina. R-a-e-f-o-r-d, Raeford, North Carolina,

in Hoke County, h-o-k-e, Hoke County. Hoke County, of

course, adjoins Robeson County and at one time was a part

of Hoke County. And so far as the Indian community is

concerned, the Indian community spills over into this

county and it has always been that way. With me, con-

senting to give me an interview for which I am deeply

grateful is one of another daughter of Mr. and Mrs.

David Jackson. And would you tell us what your name is,

please, ma'am?

J: Rose!Mary Jackson.

I: Rosemary Jackson. That's r-o-s-e-m-a-r-y, one word,

right?














LUM 136A 2








J: No, sir. Two.

I: Two words. Excuse me, I've got a terrible cold. And

the last name is spelled j-a-c-k-s-o-n. Rose Mary, how

old are you? May I call you Rose Mary?

J: Yes, sir. I'm sixteen years old.

I: Sixteen years old.

J: Yes, sir.

I: And may I say you're a very pretty daughter, too?

J: Thank you very much.

I: Where do you go to school?

J: Right now I'm going to Hoke County High School.

I: Hoke County High School.

J: Yes, sir.

I: What grade are you in?

J: I'm a junior, which is the eleventh.

I: Uh-huh. Are you enjoying yourself?

J: Very much. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the

world.

I: Oh, that's great. What kind of sports or hobbies do you

go for on campus besides talking to boys?

J: Well, right now I'm a member of the FTA. I'm also a member













LUM 136A 3







of the FHA and the Annual Staff and the Pep Club

and DE--or the (D6C A 1lub, rather.

I: Could you tell us a little more about those clubs, what

each club means? I'm not sure I understand all the

initials of the clubs that you've given me. Would you

go over those again so that our girls will be able to

type down the correct name of the organization, please,

ma'am?

J: Yes, sir. FTA stands for the Future Teachers of America

which are for students who are interested in teaching,

and four days out of every year they are eligible to go

to other schools and teach other students. The FHA is

the Future Homemakers of America which pertains to any-

body who:may be interested in homemaking. And it per-

tains to making dresses and things like that, you know,

and fashion shows. And the Pep Club, which of course,

everyone knows, contains the;..you support your foot-

ball players, basketball players and all other sports.

And which I'm glad to say, I'm very proud of ours. And

the DE stands for D(F1n t,V-v Education which

goes to show...it combines on-the-job training with

classroom studies.













LUM 136A 4







I: Uh-huh.

J: And I think that covers all of them.

I: I think you're a pretty popular girl on campus, aren't

you?

J: I try to be to keep up my image.

I: Oh. Were you ever a cheerleader, or is that part of the

Pep Club? Do they take part in cheerleading activities,

that sort of thing to encourage the athletic team?

J: Well, I never was a member of the cheerleader staff, but

the Pep Club has very much to do with it. You go with

the football players, where they go and you support them.

That's just the same as...well, you might as well say it's

just as equal as a cheerleader.

I: And you do a lot of yelling and jumping and looking pretty,

sort of decorating the field, all you girls. Is that

right?

J: Yes, sir. It's an all-girl club.

I: That sounds very interesting and it should encourage more

people to come out and see the athletic events. But they

just might watch you girls more than they watch the players.

How about that?

J: Well, just so they're at the game!













LUM 136A 5







I: You do get them out, don't you?

J: Yes, sir. We get them out, one way or the other.

I: You get a lot of fun out of that, don't you?

J: I'd say it's one of the most privileged clubs to be

in it. It's a great honor, especially since there's

only three Indians in it.

I: And the rest are white?

J: White and black combined.

I: About how many blacks are in your club?

J: There's about two hundred girls and I'd say half

of them is black and the other, you know, are white.

And the three Indians make, you know, so many percent.

I: Well, that percentage is small so you do have a lot to

be proud of. There must be some reasons behind this.

You have to be very unusual, Rose Mary, a very unusual

student. I congratulate you.

J: Thank you. It's an honor.

I: What sports do you like better?

J: Well, I like track, which I run that in my freshman year,

but I'd say otherwise I like football and basketball

best.














LUM 136A 6







I: You were active in track?

J: Yes, sir.

I: What did you...what was your best? The best you've

ever done.

J: Let's see. I'd say I throwed the shot-put 28.8, and

that was one of the top--not quite the top, but one

of the top. And I also threw the discus, which was

108, which was one of the top, too, but not quite.

I: Well, that's great. What other sports have you par-

ticipated in?

J: I participated in a girls' basketball team and I was

the most valuable Indian player. And that's about the

only sports.

I: Among how many Indian players?

J: There was about seven of us.

I: That's great. What other things do you like in school?

J: Well, I really like everything, you know, but if I had

my choice I'd say my best, you know, what I like best

was DE.

I: Have you already made up your mind what you'd like to be

when you grow up' or like to do?













LUM 136A 7







J: Well, I'm planning on going to college, you know, so

I can help mentally retarded people because I'm very

interested in people themselves, especially those who

are unable to help themselves.

I: Well, that's great. You're a very outgoing young lady

and you are interested in people and in helping people,

I can tell that. And you have a very unusual personality,

a great personality, and I'm sure this will help you

whatever you decide to do. If you had a wish, you could

change anything about Hoke or Robeson in the Indian

community, what would you change?

J: Well, I'd say I'd combine it where all Indians could

get along together and not say, "Well, I'm a member
l |l u
of the Lumbee and I'm a member of the Tuscarora and

you say you're a member of the Lumbee it'll start an

argument with the Tuscarora because I don't think that's

fair. I think all Indian people should pull together

and if I had a wish I'd wish they could all pull

together.

I: Oh, that's great. I'm so glad you thought of that.

And I'm with you there. I wish we could all get along













LUM 136A 8







together in all groups, but certainly the Indian com-

munity should be. How about...I guess this is the

inevitable question, but don't answer if you don't

want to. What do you think about interracial dating?

J: Well, I don't think it's for a person to judge him--

self. I think it has to be what an individual thinks

himself because really, another person can't think of

what somebody else might like. Me, myself, you know,

I'd rather stick with a guy of my own race, but then

somebody else might so I'd say that, ou know, right

there is an vi dpt4 A etb c question that you

ought to ask yourself and not that somebody else can

answer;

I: Oh, I think you're a great diplomat.

J: Thank you, sir.

I: This is a great answer. I think you're right. Everybody

has to decide for himself in the last analysis, doesn't

he? When do you think you'll.. .when you get through high

school do you think you'll be going to college?

J: Yes, sir. That's one of my main ambitions and if there's

any way possible I'm going to try to make it.













LUM 136A 9







I: I believe you will, Rose Mary. I certainly wish you

Godspeed Have you decided which college you

would like to go to?

J: No, not as of right now because there are a lot of

schools around here that don't necessarily 4 C1AiJ tr4r

'so right now I'm still studying, you

know, booklets on what college to go to and I guess I'll

go the one that I think will be best. Right now I'm not

positive.

I: You're gonna cross that bridge when you get to it.

J: Yes, sir. Take one step at a time.

I: Right. Your little sister came over here and whispered

in my ear and said please ask her what her boyfriend's

name is. That's a personal question so you don't have

to answer if you don't want to.

J: I won't answer that one onthe grounds that it might

discriminated me.

I: OK. Well, that's a good answer. Might tend to incriminate

you or something like that. Do you go to church?

J: I wouldn't say I was a member of the church but I go off

and on.














LUM 136A 10








I: Which church do you go to mostly?

J: Whenever I go I go to Turnpike Mission.

I: Turnpike Mission Church?

J: Yes, sir.

I: Is that Baptist, Methodist, or what?

J: I think it's a Baptist. Well, right now the church hasn't

been built yet, but that's what Dad was on before he

died, and I guess when they get it finished it will be

a Baptist.

I: Was your dad a Baptist?

J: Yes, sir.

I: Well, now, Rose Mary. You've gone to schools that were

not integrated, haven't you?

J: Yes, sir.

I: And you've gone to schools which have been integrated.

Right?

J: Yes, sir.

I: Do you have any comments at all you would like to make

along those lines about integration, segregation, and

this sort of thing?

.: Well, I think at the time which I have been in school,

I think it's good that they integrated schools. Because















LUM 136A 12






I: Really?

J: 0Ak 5 -(AlINJ Jorc at our school,

everybody's one-big happy family, because we got our

great principal to back us up.

I: Well, that's good. I'm sure he'll appreciate that.

Let's mention his name. Would you tell.us his name?
/ AWa ++ry
J: Mr. George Sfa o /

I: Can you spell his name? I can't .f e MT

hea it for the first time.

J: G-e-o-r-g-e, r-a- Z -a-u-%+4y

I: That's great, because often students don't speak glowing

words of praise about the principal, especially. He

kind of...he's hard,I guess, in some cases. But this

sounds like a real professional man and certainly

worthy of whatever you want to say about him.

J: He's really a great man, because if it weren't for him

our school wouldn't be where it is today. Because right

now I can say that we are the only school around that I

know of that don't have conflicts between ShA-A S

1a24 ( t Mtal -hJ 4 S D3a(tS/ because he treats
all students equal. He don't go treating the white students

better because they're white.













LUM 136A 13







I: Well, that's certainly a great recommendation, and coming

from a student, this is certainly important. You're not

married, of course, yet. But what are your ideas? Do

you have any ideas about the family make-up among the

Indian community? Do you think a patriarchal type of

family is the best family and this is the family in which

the father or the husband is the head of the family.

What do you think about this? You're pretty independent

girl and you'rekpretty independent thinker, and I'd just

like to have your opinion on that if you don't mind giving

it.

J: Well, I always think the husband should always be the man

of the house because it just seems more...should I say

more manly?

I: Um-hnn, that's good. How women's lib? Do you think you

have any chapters of the women's liberation movement in

Hoke County? (, \

J: No, not really because I think everybody wants la man to be

able to do more than a woman. Because I'm quite sure I

couldn't get out here and do some of the jobs a man does.

I: I said earlier that you're a great diplomat and you are.














LUM 136A 14







J: Thank you.

I: Do you think as a rule that Indian parents are too strict

on their children? Or not strict enough? Or...now this

is going to certainly require diplomacy on your part. I

want you to give me your honest opinion if you will, or

if you'd rather not answer, just pass it up.

J: Well, to be honest, in some cases I think...well, as my

mother, I think she's too strict at times. But then at

others, as time goes on and you look back on it I guess

you would say not really, because you think of all the

things they have did for you and you say, well, if they

would have let you run like you wanted to, things wouldn't

be quite the same. So I guess it's a half and half

question.

I: That's still a diplomatic answer. But I'm sure you're

honest and sincere, and we appreciate your answer. By

the way, I've always been a rooter for young people. I

believe in our young people. I don't think they're any

worse than we were or any better than we were. When I

say "we" I mean people who are a little bit older, let's

say. But within recent years there has been a lot of talk













LUM 136A 15







about the so-called generation gap.. Do you find it very

difficult to talk to an older person?

J: Well, in some cases, yes. Because, well, I guess that we

think, as younger peoplef-as I say "we" I mean the younger

peopleS-that older folks wouldn't understand our point of

view because they've never been IrAr& ; But I

guess once you look back on it you can say they went

through the same thing, so I wouldn't say it was too hard

to talk to an older person.

I: Maybe it would take a little assistance on the young person's

part. But do you really think they understand each other

or is there room for better understanding between older

and younger people?

J: I guess they could stand a little better, you know, under-

standing between both.

I: Yau think there should be some efforts made on both sides?

J: Yes, sir.

I: Do you think the PTA is effective today in helping in this

and similar problems?

J: Well, I wouldn't really know because I don't really know

what goes on behind PTA meetings. So I couldn't really













LUM 136A 16







answer that.

I: Of course, this is an organization for parents and teachers,

and this sort o leaves the students out, doesn't it?

/ysSir. 6ut- beJi;.t jte 4

I: Well, maybe that will be extended to include parents,

teachers and students someday. Who knows? Or maybe there

will be a new organization altogether. We don't know what

tomorrow may bring, but I'm pretty confident, knowing the

young people that I know. This old world will be in pretty

good hands. I understand that your big brother is in...

is it the Navy he's in?

J: Yes, sir.

I: Of course, maybe it's not fair to ask you about him, but

do you have anything you could tell us about him?

J: Yes, sir. I could tell you a book about my brother because

I guess every one would say if they had a brother like me,

he's one that you can be very proud of.

I: Now what's his name?

J: David Lane Jackson.

I: And how old is he?

J: He's eighteen.

I: And he's in the Navy now.













LUM 136A 17







J: Yes, sir.

I: Well, you go right ahead, Rose Mary, and say anything

you want to say.

J: Well, I guess you could say he's a person that after he

goes through school, he really makes a way for himself

because at school everyone talked about how great of a

person he was, because he's just that kind of a person.

Once you meet him it kind of hard to forget him because

he really makes a name for himself, and I guess to boil

it all down to one point you'd say he's really a great

person. And I'm glad to say I'm proud to have a brother.

Because he is.

I: I can see you love your brother very much. I think he's

a lucky guy to have a sister like you, and likewise, you're

lucky to have a brother like him. What were his activities

like before he went into the Navy, your brother?

J: Well, he was a Sunday school teacher for five years. e-**

ces A y, I'm sorry, but he was a Sunday

school teacher for about eight or nine years. And during

school he was the president of a lot of clubs. I think

he was the president of the FHA and he really represented













LUM 136A 18







it well. And as they say as time goes on we have a bfj1C/'!1Q

---" in school of him and I C 5'F you know,

that's really a great honor because there's never been

an Indian at Hoke County High School that had memorandum,

and he'll be one of the first.

I: Well, then it isn't impossible, is it, for an Indian

student to-become the head of clubs and to take a leading

part in student government and this sort of thing. I

mean, it may be difficult for anybody, but it's not im-

possible, is it?

J: No, sir. I think the main thing is the way you get along

other people. The main thing is you get along with all

colors as you do yourself and please them, and also be

willing to take responsibility.

I: Uh-huh.

J: So I wouldn't say it was really impossible because anybody

can make it if they're willing to buckle down and try.

I: Pay the price, in other words.

J: Yes, sir.

I: Rose Mary, you spoke very earnestly of your desire to help

other people. Have you had an opportunity to help young













LUM 136A 19






people, say, in school, in the community and around?

How have you made out?

J: Yes, sir. Like I said earlier in this interview, the

FTA gives members of other an opportunity to go to other

schools and work with other classes. Well, a couple of

weeks ago during an FTA meeting, they chose members to

go to other schools. Well I was chose to go to South
ty A ra, f
Hoke School and I had Mr.A /lnru fifth grade

class. And they were unexpectedly surprised when I got

there because they weren't really expecting me. And when

I got there, that gave me a chanceto see, you know, that

he really hadn't had time to tell the students that I was

coming. And they weren't expecting me, so when I got

there I really realized what it was, you know, to teach

them. And I want to say that was a very nice class. I

don't know how you would say it, but it gave me a thrill

that I've never had before because during the two days

I was there I just really enjoyed it. And the day I had

to leave it really got to me because I wish I could have

stayed on and on. And it's really a great job to work

with young students.

I: That's great. That's a great ambition, and I'm sure














LUM 136A 20







you'll make it. With this exuberant personality of yours

and all the plus things you have going in your favor, I'm

sure you'll be able to do just about anything you set out

to >.

J: Thank you, sir. Nic e compliment.

I: But I'd just like to ask you for your own opinion as to

how you get along with other people. Maybe it sounds

like a redundant question but not really. How do you get

along with other people?

J: Well, I get along with people great no matter what race

or creed they are, because, you know, all people are the

same and as long as a person don't step on my toes we get

along all right. But once he starts knocking on my door

and it really gets to me, we just don't get along so well.

I: How about you and older people?

J: Well, I get along with older people great, too. Some of

them anyway.

I: That's great.

J: Most of them.

I: Most of them. How do you get along with your teachers?

J: I get along great with my teachers because I really think,













LUM 136A 21







you know, as I've grown older now I look back and see

how I was when I was in the first grade because I was

really something else in the first grade. And teachers

now, they look back and they say, "Your daddy must be a

very proud man to have such wonderful children," and

right then I know that 0L6 watch what I

did. So I say I respect my teachers very highly.

I: That's great. I want to ask you another sort of tricky

question, don't answer if you don't want to. Do you get

along with boys better or with girls better? In your own

age frame.

J: Well, I would say I get along with boys better in the

beginning because I really think that you can sit down

and talk with some guys, you know, and they hear it like

a big brother. But then, on the other hand I would say

I get along with girls because right now,'14. Locklear,

she's my best friend and I can say if all girls were like

her I'd get along better with all girls, but unfortunately

I have to say I get along with boys better.

I: I wouldn't say that's unfortunate at all. Your girlfriend,













LUM 136A 22







let's spell her name so people will know her name. It's

Tryla?

J: Twylear, t-w-y-l-e-a-r, l-o-c-k-l-e-a-r.

I: Very pretty name. Is she in your same age group?

J: She's a year younger than I am, but age doesn't really

make a difference.

I: That's great. What other things interest you very deeply,

Rose Mary? I know in you're interested in lots of things.

Can you think of anything else in which you'reAinterested?

J: Well, that's really a hard question because I'm interested

in so many things lately. They all just pile up at one

time and I couldn't name them all one by one.

I: You strike me as the sort of person who really enjoys living

and doing things, getting around, and working and playing.

Whatever you're doing, you seem to have put your whole

heart into it. Is this a fair description?

J: Yes, sir. I'd say that I really enjoy life because as they

say, you walk through this life only one time. If there's

anything you can do for them, tell them.

I: Do all the good you can as you go along. Is that what you














LUM 136A 23







mean?

J: Right.

I: Are you very serious? Are you a very serious person or

do you try to take things as they come, or what?

J: Well, it's according to how you look at it. When it

comes to love, yes. In other things, yes. But then,

on the other hand, I take things as they come.

I: Are you a good loser?

J: Yes, sir. I think everyone should be a good loser

because you can't always win. You have to take the good

with the bad.

I: Right. That's certainly a good answer. Her mother is

telling her some things that we should discuss, perhaps.

And this is...one thing especially is the tie between you

and your father, which seem to be very close. You love

and respect each other very much. Do you have any comments

along that line? Q

J: Well, yes, sir. Because, as you said,cwe really loved him,

which we did. He was a person, even though there was a

great age gap, he always sat you down and told you about

the facts of life and what you really had to know. And













LUM 136A 24







earlier, you asked if I was a good loser. Well, I'd say

yes because seven days he was in the hospital. You

couldn't tell me that he weren't going to live because

I just believed he was going to live. But then after he

died I wouldn't say, you know, that...it hit me bad in

the beginning but once you looked on it, I said, well,

he was really a great person and I didn't much to worry

about because at least I knew where he was going. And

then after I thought of it, you know, I said I was glad

he was dead becausethe would have been alive, you know,

he wouldn't have been any more good and I guess he'd have

been, you know...he was grateful. I guess he would have

been more grateful that he had died, you know. And right

there that goes to say that I am a great loser because

I was willing to give up a loved one.

I: For his own sake.

J: Yes, sir.

I: And this is because of what happened tohim in an auto

accident?

J: Yes, sir.

I: Well, that's certainly a great and a realistic philosophy.
















LUM 136A 26







two birds in a, Is that what you'd

call it? Or would you say a honeycomb? Well, whatever

a bee lives in. A beehive, yeah. We are like two bees

in a beehive but then other times we're on unspeakable

terms. Then there comes my brother David. We got along

great before he left. We were two unseparable people.

Then comes my brother Paul. We play a lot and kid a lot





I: This is Side Two of the interview with Miss Rose Mary

Jackson. Rose Mary, we were interrupted there in the

middle of you describing your family so eloquently,

person by person. Could you possibly pick up and go on

with the rest of them? I think you'd got about three.

J: You want me to start where I left off, with Paul?

I: Um-hmm [affirmative].

J: The last word I said waswe kid a lot and we get along just

great, too. Then comes Wanda...Donald. He's a sweet

lovable warm gentle person but I'd hate to think of having

to live with him for the rest of my life. I'm only joking,













LUM 136A 27







he's great. Then comes Wanda, my next sister. She's

a great person but a little time she gets a little touchy.

And then comes my baby sister, Betty Ann, who is selfish,

spoiled and really a great person.

I: Also very sweet, right?

J: Right. And sweet. And that's all of us. One big happy

family.

I: I believe I had asked you about the wish you would have

for your family if you could have one wish, and I believe

we lost that on part of our tape back there. And I believe

you said that you would wish that your family could be

back together as they once were, something like this.

J: Yes, sir. I think there could be one wish that I could

have with my family it would be that my oldest brother

David was back home and that I could turn back the times

of hand to July 7 and my father was still alive and we

were all still a big happy family.

I: That's very tragic. We were talking about human ties and

human relationships, and inevitably they all have to

end sooner or later. This makes you feel very sad, doesn't

it, to think that all your human relationships--or nearly













LUM 136A 28








all, perhaps--during the course of life must end? Have

you ever thought aboutfhis?

J: Well, no, sir. Not really. I've never really stopped

to think, of all things having to come to an end. Well,

I know all things have to come to an end, but I guess I

just live day by day.

I: That's the best way, isn't it?

J: Yes,sir. That way you don't get ahead of yourself and be

disappointed when things don't turn out like you want them

to.

I; Do you like poetry?

J: Oh, yes, sir. I have a whole leaflet of love poems.

I: You do.

J: Yes, sir.

I: That's another side of you, that you're warm and human and

interested in life, all facets of life. I certainly wish

you the best of everything in life, Rose Mary.

J: Thank you very much.

I: Somehow Twylear, your girlfriend, keeps nagging at my

memory. You spoke so warmly of her. Just how long have

you known her?













LUM 136A 29







J: Let's see, I've known her ever since I was in the second

grade, but really, I couldn't stand her when I was in the

second grade.

I: Oh! You weren't friends.

J: No, sir. When I was in the seventh and she was in the

sixth, something or other happened, I can't quite remember

the incident, but we became vry close friends. And ever

since then we have been the best of friends and I guess

really nothing can come between-our friendship except

death. We have our ups and downs but otherwise we are

very close.

I: Does she live nearby?

J: Yes, sir. She lives right down the road.

I: Oh. That's great. Have you had a happy Thanksgiving Day?

J: Well, not really. Oh, I'm only joking. Yes, sir. It was

one of the best! It's not really like it has been in recent

years because,as we say Dad's dead and David's gone. And

it's just not the same. But otherwise with all that's

here, we had a great time.

I: Do you feel very thnakful in spite of your misfortunes?

J: Yes, sir. I'm thankful to be here and that's really a lot

to be thankful of. And all my other family.














LUM 136A 30







I: You know, there are several viewpoints you can take

relative to life. You can look at life and say, "Well,

I didn't ask to be sent into this world." Or you can

view life as a great gift from God and from your fore-

parents and from your parents and so on. Your ancestors.

Do you regardit as a great gift or as I described it

otherwise?

J: Well, I'd say that's another half-and-half question.

I guess once you really look at it I think it's a great

gift. Then other times when I don't get to have my way,

you know, like if I want to go somewhere and Mom says

no, I say, "Well, I wish I hadn't been brought into this

world." But that's only in a time of anger. It's really

a great gift.

I: And you appreciate it very much, don't you?

J: Yes, sir.

I: I am sure you are going to have a happy time and I think

you're destined to be happy in life, if you'll allow me to

be sort of a fortune-teller along the way.

J: Oh, if you could give my fortune, just make it a happy

one.

I: Unfortunately, I can't. I wish you that, anyway.













LUM 136A 31







J: Thank you.

I: In the light of your tragedy and so forth, I'm sure you

must be looking forward to a happy Christmas season. Do

you think there is compensation in life for our sorrows?

It sort of balances out in the long run?

J: Yes, sir. Because really, ever since I've been a little

girl, you know, I've always knew that everything had to

come to an end. And when something, you know, has been

taken and sorrow's here, you have to look at it as to say,

well, it was meant. Because as they say, the Lord giveth

and the Lord shall taketh. So right there I don't think

a person, you know, should be sorry for what has happened

because it's really all for the good no matter what it is.

So that shouldn't keep a person from being happy because

they have to live, too.

I: Do you feel that you have the gift of happiness? Of being

happy? That you know how to be happy?

J: Well, everyone tells me I have so I guess I have.

I: Well, I believe you have. And it's a gift I wish every-

body had because some people are quite miserable no matter

what they have in life. Or at least, no matter what they

appear to have in life. Sometimes you can't see below the














LUM 136A 32







surface because there-might be conditions -here-that we

don't understand. But sometimes it seems that the most

fortunate people seem to be the unhappiest people. And

that's not a question, but how do you feel about it?

J: Well, that's something I can't quite put into words.

I: How about your counselors at school? Do you get good

counseling service and this sort of thing?

J: Well, I don't...I wouldn't really say yes and I wouldn't

really say no, because I don't really go to the counselor

that much so I don't really know what it's all about. And

the times I have been I'd say they were really of great

help. They tried, you know, to help you and all that.

So I'd say, well, yes and no:

I: In other words you're the kind of person, as I can imagine,

who doesn't have so many problems that you can't handle

on your own without a lot of advice.

J: I try to solve everything on my own because I think I can.

I: Well, that's great. Of course, if you do need help any-

time, well, it's good to know that the help is there.

Right?

J: Right.













LUM 136A 33







I: Rose Mary, do you often...I know that you're strictly in

the minority in this county, in Hoke County. Do you

often find yourself in situations or in places or in

programs and so on where you're the onlyApresent?

J: Yes, sir. Right now I'm the only Indian in DE. As I

said, you know, I don't let that affect me very much,

because no matter where I'amlI can-makeffriends with any-

body because I'm just that type of person so it really

don't bother me.

I: Do you think that that could be an advantage?

J: I think it could because some people can't even get along

with some people out of their own race.

I: Some people can't get along with anybody.

J: Right.

I: It's good that you have this attitude. I want you to

imagine that we have a glass with water in it, and the

water comes up about midway. Would you describe such

a glass of water as being half-full or half-empty?

J: Well, it's both. It's half-full and it's half-empty.

I: But how do you think about it, though?

J: Well, if I'm looking at it now, I'd say it's half-full.














LUM 136A 34







I: Are there times when you'd think of it as being half-

empty, do you think?

J: Well, I've never really thought of it as half-empty.

I: Well, I'm sure you're an optimistic person and I think

this little test shows. I think if you think of it as

being half-empty, perhaps you would be a little bit pes-

simistic. But if you think of it as being half-full,

then you're positive and optimistic. And you certainly

strike me as an optimistic type of person. Well, I

certainly have enjoyed this interview and I wish we could

go on and on, but I have a ride over here and my driver

sent word long ago that we should go. Is there anything

you'd like to add before we close the interview?

J: No, sir. I think I've talked more than my time.

I: Do you have any advice you'd like to give other young

people?

J: Well, the only advice I can give is to accept things as

they come and to do, you know, do everything you can

possible that will make you in the days to come, well,

you can look back on and be thankful for.

I: That's great. That's great advice. I need that, too.














LUM 136A 35







And again I want to thank you very much for your wil-

lingness to talk to me, and you've been very forthright,

and I really have enjoyed this interview and your exu-

berant personality. And gain I want to wish you Godspeed

in life.in all that you attempt to do.

J: You're welcome, and it was my pleasure.

I: Good night.

J: Good night.






--END OF TAPE--





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