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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 136A
Miss Rose Mary Jackson (J)
Raeford, North Carolina
Interviewer: Lew Barton (I)
November 22, 1973
Typed by: P. F. Williams
I: This is November 22, 1973. I am Lew Barton interviewing
for the University of Florida's History Department's and
for the Doris Duke Foundation's American Indian Oral
History Program. This afternoon, I am privileged to be
in the home of Mr. and Mrs. David Jackson near Raeford,
North Carolina. R-a-e-f-o-r-d, Raeford, North Carolina,
in Hoke County, h-o-k-e, Hoke County. Hoke County, of
course, adjoins Robeson County and at one time was a part
of Hoke County. And so far as the Indian community is
concerned, the Indian community spills over into this
county and it has always been that way. With me, con-
senting to give me an interview for which I am deeply
grateful is one of another daughter of Mr. and Mrs.
David Jackson. And would you tell us what your name is,
please, ma'am?
J: Rose!Mary Jackson.
I: Rosemary Jackson. That's r-o-s-e-m-a-r-y, one word,
right?
LUM 136A 2
J: No, sir. Two.
I: Two words. Excuse me, I've got a terrible cold. And
the last name is spelled j-a-c-k-s-o-n. Rose Mary, how
old are you? May I call you Rose Mary?
J: Yes, sir. I'm sixteen years old.
I: Sixteen years old.
J: Yes, sir.
I: And may I say you're a very pretty daughter, too?
J: Thank you very much.
I: Where do you go to school?
J: Right now I'm going to Hoke County High School.
I: Hoke County High School.
J: Yes, sir.
I: What grade are you in?
J: I'm a junior, which is the eleventh.
I: Uh-huh. Are you enjoying yourself?
J: Very much. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the
world.
I: Oh, that's great. What kind of sports or hobbies do you
go for on campus besides talking to boys?
J: Well, right now I'm a member of the FTA. I'm also a member
LUM 136A 3
of the FHA and the Annual Staff and the Pep Club
and DE--or the (D6C A 1lub, rather.
I: Could you tell us a little more about those clubs, what
each club means? I'm not sure I understand all the
initials of the clubs that you've given me. Would you
go over those again so that our girls will be able to
type down the correct name of the organization, please,
ma'am?
J: Yes, sir. FTA stands for the Future Teachers of America
which are for students who are interested in teaching,
and four days out of every year they are eligible to go
to other schools and teach other students. The FHA is
the Future Homemakers of America which pertains to any-
body who:may be interested in homemaking. And it per-
tains to making dresses and things like that, you know,
and fashion shows. And the Pep Club, which of course,
everyone knows, contains the;..you support your foot-
ball players, basketball players and all other sports.
And which I'm glad to say, I'm very proud of ours. And
the DE stands for D(F1n t,V-v Education which
goes to show...it combines on-the-job training with
classroom studies.
LUM 136A 4
I: Uh-huh.
J: And I think that covers all of them.
I: I think you're a pretty popular girl on campus, aren't
you?
J: I try to be to keep up my image.
I: Oh. Were you ever a cheerleader, or is that part of the
Pep Club? Do they take part in cheerleading activities,
that sort of thing to encourage the athletic team?
J: Well, I never was a member of the cheerleader staff, but
the Pep Club has very much to do with it. You go with
the football players, where they go and you support them.
That's just the same as...well, you might as well say it's
just as equal as a cheerleader.
I: And you do a lot of yelling and jumping and looking pretty,
sort of decorating the field, all you girls. Is that
right?
J: Yes, sir. It's an all-girl club.
I: That sounds very interesting and it should encourage more
people to come out and see the athletic events. But they
just might watch you girls more than they watch the players.
How about that?
J: Well, just so they're at the game!
LUM 136A 5
I: You do get them out, don't you?
J: Yes, sir. We get them out, one way or the other.
I: You get a lot of fun out of that, don't you?
J: I'd say it's one of the most privileged clubs to be
in it. It's a great honor, especially since there's
only three Indians in it.
I: And the rest are white?
J: White and black combined.
I: About how many blacks are in your club?
J: There's about two hundred girls and I'd say half
of them is black and the other, you know, are white.
And the three Indians make, you know, so many percent.
I: Well, that percentage is small so you do have a lot to
be proud of. There must be some reasons behind this.
You have to be very unusual, Rose Mary, a very unusual
student. I congratulate you.
J: Thank you. It's an honor.
I: What sports do you like better?
J: Well, I like track, which I run that in my freshman year,
but I'd say otherwise I like football and basketball
best.
LUM 136A 6
I: You were active in track?
J: Yes, sir.
I: What did you...what was your best? The best you've
ever done.
J: Let's see. I'd say I throwed the shot-put 28.8, and
that was one of the top--not quite the top, but one
of the top. And I also threw the discus, which was
108, which was one of the top, too, but not quite.
I: Well, that's great. What other sports have you par-
ticipated in?
J: I participated in a girls' basketball team and I was
the most valuable Indian player. And that's about the
only sports.
I: Among how many Indian players?
J: There was about seven of us.
I: That's great. What other things do you like in school?
J: Well, I really like everything, you know, but if I had
my choice I'd say my best, you know, what I like best
was DE.
I: Have you already made up your mind what you'd like to be
when you grow up' or like to do?
LUM 136A 7
J: Well, I'm planning on going to college, you know, so
I can help mentally retarded people because I'm very
interested in people themselves, especially those who
are unable to help themselves.
I: Well, that's great. You're a very outgoing young lady
and you are interested in people and in helping people,
I can tell that. And you have a very unusual personality,
a great personality, and I'm sure this will help you
whatever you decide to do. If you had a wish, you could
change anything about Hoke or Robeson in the Indian
community, what would you change?
J: Well, I'd say I'd combine it where all Indians could
get along together and not say, "Well, I'm a member
l |l u
of the Lumbee and I'm a member of the Tuscarora and
you say you're a member of the Lumbee it'll start an
argument with the Tuscarora because I don't think that's
fair. I think all Indian people should pull together
and if I had a wish I'd wish they could all pull
together.
I: Oh, that's great. I'm so glad you thought of that.
And I'm with you there. I wish we could all get along
LUM 136A 8
together in all groups, but certainly the Indian com-
munity should be. How about...I guess this is the
inevitable question, but don't answer if you don't
want to. What do you think about interracial dating?
J: Well, I don't think it's for a person to judge him--
self. I think it has to be what an individual thinks
himself because really, another person can't think of
what somebody else might like. Me, myself, you know,
I'd rather stick with a guy of my own race, but then
somebody else might so I'd say that, ou know, right
there is an vi dpt4 A etb c question that you
ought to ask yourself and not that somebody else can
answer;
I: Oh, I think you're a great diplomat.
J: Thank you, sir.
I: This is a great answer. I think you're right. Everybody
has to decide for himself in the last analysis, doesn't
he? When do you think you'll.. .when you get through high
school do you think you'll be going to college?
J: Yes, sir. That's one of my main ambitions and if there's
any way possible I'm going to try to make it.
LUM 136A 9
I: I believe you will, Rose Mary. I certainly wish you
Godspeed Have you decided which college you
would like to go to?
J: No, not as of right now because there are a lot of
schools around here that don't necessarily 4 C1AiJ tr4r
'so right now I'm still studying, you
know, booklets on what college to go to and I guess I'll
go the one that I think will be best. Right now I'm not
positive.
I: You're gonna cross that bridge when you get to it.
J: Yes, sir. Take one step at a time.
I: Right. Your little sister came over here and whispered
in my ear and said please ask her what her boyfriend's
name is. That's a personal question so you don't have
to answer if you don't want to.
J: I won't answer that one onthe grounds that it might
discriminated me.
I: OK. Well, that's a good answer. Might tend to incriminate
you or something like that. Do you go to church?
J: I wouldn't say I was a member of the church but I go off
and on.
LUM 136A 10
I: Which church do you go to mostly?
J: Whenever I go I go to Turnpike Mission.
I: Turnpike Mission Church?
J: Yes, sir.
I: Is that Baptist, Methodist, or what?
J: I think it's a Baptist. Well, right now the church hasn't
been built yet, but that's what Dad was on before he
died, and I guess when they get it finished it will be
a Baptist.
I: Was your dad a Baptist?
J: Yes, sir.
I: Well, now, Rose Mary. You've gone to schools that were
not integrated, haven't you?
J: Yes, sir.
I: And you've gone to schools which have been integrated.
Right?
J: Yes, sir.
I: Do you have any comments at all you would like to make
along those lines about integration, segregation, and
this sort of thing?
.: Well, I think at the time which I have been in school,
I think it's good that they integrated schools. Because
LUM 136A 12
I: Really?
J: 0Ak 5 -(AlINJ Jorc at our school,
everybody's one-big happy family, because we got our
great principal to back us up.
I: Well, that's good. I'm sure he'll appreciate that.
Let's mention his name. Would you tell.us his name?
/ AWa ++ry
J: Mr. George Sfa o /
I: Can you spell his name? I can't .f e MT
hea it for the first time.
J: G-e-o-r-g-e, r-a- Z -a-u-%+4y
I: That's great, because often students don't speak glowing
words of praise about the principal, especially. He
kind of...he's hard,I guess, in some cases. But this
sounds like a real professional man and certainly
worthy of whatever you want to say about him.
J: He's really a great man, because if it weren't for him
our school wouldn't be where it is today. Because right
now I can say that we are the only school around that I
know of that don't have conflicts between ShA-A S
1a24 ( t Mtal -hJ 4 S D3a(tS/ because he treats
all students equal. He don't go treating the white students
better because they're white.
LUM 136A 13
I: Well, that's certainly a great recommendation, and coming
from a student, this is certainly important. You're not
married, of course, yet. But what are your ideas? Do
you have any ideas about the family make-up among the
Indian community? Do you think a patriarchal type of
family is the best family and this is the family in which
the father or the husband is the head of the family.
What do you think about this? You're pretty independent
girl and you'rekpretty independent thinker, and I'd just
like to have your opinion on that if you don't mind giving
it.
J: Well, I always think the husband should always be the man
of the house because it just seems more...should I say
more manly?
I: Um-hnn, that's good. How women's lib? Do you think you
have any chapters of the women's liberation movement in
Hoke County? (, \
J: No, not really because I think everybody wants la man to be
able to do more than a woman. Because I'm quite sure I
couldn't get out here and do some of the jobs a man does.
I: I said earlier that you're a great diplomat and you are.
LUM 136A 14
J: Thank you.
I: Do you think as a rule that Indian parents are too strict
on their children? Or not strict enough? Or...now this
is going to certainly require diplomacy on your part. I
want you to give me your honest opinion if you will, or
if you'd rather not answer, just pass it up.
J: Well, to be honest, in some cases I think...well, as my
mother, I think she's too strict at times. But then at
others, as time goes on and you look back on it I guess
you would say not really, because you think of all the
things they have did for you and you say, well, if they
would have let you run like you wanted to, things wouldn't
be quite the same. So I guess it's a half and half
question.
I: That's still a diplomatic answer. But I'm sure you're
honest and sincere, and we appreciate your answer. By
the way, I've always been a rooter for young people. I
believe in our young people. I don't think they're any
worse than we were or any better than we were. When I
say "we" I mean people who are a little bit older, let's
say. But within recent years there has been a lot of talk
LUM 136A 15
about the so-called generation gap.. Do you find it very
difficult to talk to an older person?
J: Well, in some cases, yes. Because, well, I guess that we
think, as younger peoplef-as I say "we" I mean the younger
peopleS-that older folks wouldn't understand our point of
view because they've never been IrAr& ; But I
guess once you look back on it you can say they went
through the same thing, so I wouldn't say it was too hard
to talk to an older person.
I: Maybe it would take a little assistance on the young person's
part. But do you really think they understand each other
or is there room for better understanding between older
and younger people?
J: I guess they could stand a little better, you know, under-
standing between both.
I: Yau think there should be some efforts made on both sides?
J: Yes, sir.
I: Do you think the PTA is effective today in helping in this
and similar problems?
J: Well, I wouldn't really know because I don't really know
what goes on behind PTA meetings. So I couldn't really
LUM 136A 16
answer that.
I: Of course, this is an organization for parents and teachers,
and this sort o leaves the students out, doesn't it?
/ysSir. 6ut- beJi;.t jte 4
I: Well, maybe that will be extended to include parents,
teachers and students someday. Who knows? Or maybe there
will be a new organization altogether. We don't know what
tomorrow may bring, but I'm pretty confident, knowing the
young people that I know. This old world will be in pretty
good hands. I understand that your big brother is in...
is it the Navy he's in?
J: Yes, sir.
I: Of course, maybe it's not fair to ask you about him, but
do you have anything you could tell us about him?
J: Yes, sir. I could tell you a book about my brother because
I guess every one would say if they had a brother like me,
he's one that you can be very proud of.
I: Now what's his name?
J: David Lane Jackson.
I: And how old is he?
J: He's eighteen.
I: And he's in the Navy now.
LUM 136A 17
J: Yes, sir.
I: Well, you go right ahead, Rose Mary, and say anything
you want to say.
J: Well, I guess you could say he's a person that after he
goes through school, he really makes a way for himself
because at school everyone talked about how great of a
person he was, because he's just that kind of a person.
Once you meet him it kind of hard to forget him because
he really makes a name for himself, and I guess to boil
it all down to one point you'd say he's really a great
person. And I'm glad to say I'm proud to have a brother.
Because he is.
I: I can see you love your brother very much. I think he's
a lucky guy to have a sister like you, and likewise, you're
lucky to have a brother like him. What were his activities
like before he went into the Navy, your brother?
J: Well, he was a Sunday school teacher for five years. e-**
ces A y, I'm sorry, but he was a Sunday
school teacher for about eight or nine years. And during
school he was the president of a lot of clubs. I think
he was the president of the FHA and he really represented
LUM 136A 18
it well. And as they say as time goes on we have a bfj1C/'!1Q
---" in school of him and I C 5'F you know,
that's really a great honor because there's never been
an Indian at Hoke County High School that had memorandum,
and he'll be one of the first.
I: Well, then it isn't impossible, is it, for an Indian
student to-become the head of clubs and to take a leading
part in student government and this sort of thing. I
mean, it may be difficult for anybody, but it's not im-
possible, is it?
J: No, sir. I think the main thing is the way you get along
other people. The main thing is you get along with all
colors as you do yourself and please them, and also be
willing to take responsibility.
I: Uh-huh.
J: So I wouldn't say it was really impossible because anybody
can make it if they're willing to buckle down and try.
I: Pay the price, in other words.
J: Yes, sir.
I: Rose Mary, you spoke very earnestly of your desire to help
other people. Have you had an opportunity to help young
LUM 136A 19
people, say, in school, in the community and around?
How have you made out?
J: Yes, sir. Like I said earlier in this interview, the
FTA gives members of other an opportunity to go to other
schools and work with other classes. Well, a couple of
weeks ago during an FTA meeting, they chose members to
go to other schools. Well I was chose to go to South
ty A ra, f
Hoke School and I had Mr.A /lnru fifth grade
class. And they were unexpectedly surprised when I got
there because they weren't really expecting me. And when
I got there, that gave me a chanceto see, you know, that
he really hadn't had time to tell the students that I was
coming. And they weren't expecting me, so when I got
there I really realized what it was, you know, to teach
them. And I want to say that was a very nice class. I
don't know how you would say it, but it gave me a thrill
that I've never had before because during the two days
I was there I just really enjoyed it. And the day I had
to leave it really got to me because I wish I could have
stayed on and on. And it's really a great job to work
with young students.
I: That's great. That's a great ambition, and I'm sure
LUM 136A 20
you'll make it. With this exuberant personality of yours
and all the plus things you have going in your favor, I'm
sure you'll be able to do just about anything you set out
to >.
J: Thank you, sir. Nic e compliment.
I: But I'd just like to ask you for your own opinion as to
how you get along with other people. Maybe it sounds
like a redundant question but not really. How do you get
along with other people?
J: Well, I get along with people great no matter what race
or creed they are, because, you know, all people are the
same and as long as a person don't step on my toes we get
along all right. But once he starts knocking on my door
and it really gets to me, we just don't get along so well.
I: How about you and older people?
J: Well, I get along with older people great, too. Some of
them anyway.
I: That's great.
J: Most of them.
I: Most of them. How do you get along with your teachers?
J: I get along great with my teachers because I really think,
LUM 136A 21
you know, as I've grown older now I look back and see
how I was when I was in the first grade because I was
really something else in the first grade. And teachers
now, they look back and they say, "Your daddy must be a
very proud man to have such wonderful children," and
right then I know that 0L6 watch what I
did. So I say I respect my teachers very highly.
I: That's great. I want to ask you another sort of tricky
question, don't answer if you don't want to. Do you get
along with boys better or with girls better? In your own
age frame.
J: Well, I would say I get along with boys better in the
beginning because I really think that you can sit down
and talk with some guys, you know, and they hear it like
a big brother. But then, on the other hand I would say
I get along with girls because right now,'14. Locklear,
she's my best friend and I can say if all girls were like
her I'd get along better with all girls, but unfortunately
I have to say I get along with boys better.
I: I wouldn't say that's unfortunate at all. Your girlfriend,
LUM 136A 22
let's spell her name so people will know her name. It's
Tryla?
J: Twylear, t-w-y-l-e-a-r, l-o-c-k-l-e-a-r.
I: Very pretty name. Is she in your same age group?
J: She's a year younger than I am, but age doesn't really
make a difference.
I: That's great. What other things interest you very deeply,
Rose Mary? I know in you're interested in lots of things.
Can you think of anything else in which you'reAinterested?
J: Well, that's really a hard question because I'm interested
in so many things lately. They all just pile up at one
time and I couldn't name them all one by one.
I: You strike me as the sort of person who really enjoys living
and doing things, getting around, and working and playing.
Whatever you're doing, you seem to have put your whole
heart into it. Is this a fair description?
J: Yes, sir. I'd say that I really enjoy life because as they
say, you walk through this life only one time. If there's
anything you can do for them, tell them.
I: Do all the good you can as you go along. Is that what you
LUM 136A 23
mean?
J: Right.
I: Are you very serious? Are you a very serious person or
do you try to take things as they come, or what?
J: Well, it's according to how you look at it. When it
comes to love, yes. In other things, yes. But then,
on the other hand, I take things as they come.
I: Are you a good loser?
J: Yes, sir. I think everyone should be a good loser
because you can't always win. You have to take the good
with the bad.
I: Right. That's certainly a good answer. Her mother is
telling her some things that we should discuss, perhaps.
And this is...one thing especially is the tie between you
and your father, which seem to be very close. You love
and respect each other very much. Do you have any comments
along that line? Q
J: Well, yes, sir. Because, as you said,cwe really loved him,
which we did. He was a person, even though there was a
great age gap, he always sat you down and told you about
the facts of life and what you really had to know. And
LUM 136A 24
earlier, you asked if I was a good loser. Well, I'd say
yes because seven days he was in the hospital. You
couldn't tell me that he weren't going to live because
I just believed he was going to live. But then after he
died I wouldn't say, you know, that...it hit me bad in
the beginning but once you looked on it, I said, well,
he was really a great person and I didn't much to worry
about because at least I knew where he was going. And
then after I thought of it, you know, I said I was glad
he was dead becausethe would have been alive, you know,
he wouldn't have been any more good and I guess he'd have
been, you know...he was grateful. I guess he would have
been more grateful that he had died, you know. And right
there that goes to say that I am a great loser because
I was willing to give up a loved one.
I: For his own sake.
J: Yes, sir.
I: And this is because of what happened tohim in an auto
accident?
J: Yes, sir.
I: Well, that's certainly a great and a realistic philosophy.
LUM 136A 26
two birds in a, Is that what you'd
call it? Or would you say a honeycomb? Well, whatever
a bee lives in. A beehive, yeah. We are like two bees
in a beehive but then other times we're on unspeakable
terms. Then there comes my brother David. We got along
great before he left. We were two unseparable people.
Then comes my brother Paul. We play a lot and kid a lot
I: This is Side Two of the interview with Miss Rose Mary
Jackson. Rose Mary, we were interrupted there in the
middle of you describing your family so eloquently,
person by person. Could you possibly pick up and go on
with the rest of them? I think you'd got about three.
J: You want me to start where I left off, with Paul?
I: Um-hmm [affirmative].
J: The last word I said waswe kid a lot and we get along just
great, too. Then comes Wanda...Donald. He's a sweet
lovable warm gentle person but I'd hate to think of having
to live with him for the rest of my life. I'm only joking,
LUM 136A 27
he's great. Then comes Wanda, my next sister. She's
a great person but a little time she gets a little touchy.
And then comes my baby sister, Betty Ann, who is selfish,
spoiled and really a great person.
I: Also very sweet, right?
J: Right. And sweet. And that's all of us. One big happy
family.
I: I believe I had asked you about the wish you would have
for your family if you could have one wish, and I believe
we lost that on part of our tape back there. And I believe
you said that you would wish that your family could be
back together as they once were, something like this.
J: Yes, sir. I think there could be one wish that I could
have with my family it would be that my oldest brother
David was back home and that I could turn back the times
of hand to July 7 and my father was still alive and we
were all still a big happy family.
I: That's very tragic. We were talking about human ties and
human relationships, and inevitably they all have to
end sooner or later. This makes you feel very sad, doesn't
it, to think that all your human relationships--or nearly
LUM 136A 28
all, perhaps--during the course of life must end? Have
you ever thought aboutfhis?
J: Well, no, sir. Not really. I've never really stopped
to think, of all things having to come to an end. Well,
I know all things have to come to an end, but I guess I
just live day by day.
I: That's the best way, isn't it?
J: Yes,sir. That way you don't get ahead of yourself and be
disappointed when things don't turn out like you want them
to.
I; Do you like poetry?
J: Oh, yes, sir. I have a whole leaflet of love poems.
I: You do.
J: Yes, sir.
I: That's another side of you, that you're warm and human and
interested in life, all facets of life. I certainly wish
you the best of everything in life, Rose Mary.
J: Thank you very much.
I: Somehow Twylear, your girlfriend, keeps nagging at my
memory. You spoke so warmly of her. Just how long have
you known her?
LUM 136A 29
J: Let's see, I've known her ever since I was in the second
grade, but really, I couldn't stand her when I was in the
second grade.
I: Oh! You weren't friends.
J: No, sir. When I was in the seventh and she was in the
sixth, something or other happened, I can't quite remember
the incident, but we became vry close friends. And ever
since then we have been the best of friends and I guess
really nothing can come between-our friendship except
death. We have our ups and downs but otherwise we are
very close.
I: Does she live nearby?
J: Yes, sir. She lives right down the road.
I: Oh. That's great. Have you had a happy Thanksgiving Day?
J: Well, not really. Oh, I'm only joking. Yes, sir. It was
one of the best! It's not really like it has been in recent
years because,as we say Dad's dead and David's gone. And
it's just not the same. But otherwise with all that's
here, we had a great time.
I: Do you feel very thnakful in spite of your misfortunes?
J: Yes, sir. I'm thankful to be here and that's really a lot
to be thankful of. And all my other family.
LUM 136A 30
I: You know, there are several viewpoints you can take
relative to life. You can look at life and say, "Well,
I didn't ask to be sent into this world." Or you can
view life as a great gift from God and from your fore-
parents and from your parents and so on. Your ancestors.
Do you regardit as a great gift or as I described it
otherwise?
J: Well, I'd say that's another half-and-half question.
I guess once you really look at it I think it's a great
gift. Then other times when I don't get to have my way,
you know, like if I want to go somewhere and Mom says
no, I say, "Well, I wish I hadn't been brought into this
world." But that's only in a time of anger. It's really
a great gift.
I: And you appreciate it very much, don't you?
J: Yes, sir.
I: I am sure you are going to have a happy time and I think
you're destined to be happy in life, if you'll allow me to
be sort of a fortune-teller along the way.
J: Oh, if you could give my fortune, just make it a happy
one.
I: Unfortunately, I can't. I wish you that, anyway.
LUM 136A 31
J: Thank you.
I: In the light of your tragedy and so forth, I'm sure you
must be looking forward to a happy Christmas season. Do
you think there is compensation in life for our sorrows?
It sort of balances out in the long run?
J: Yes, sir. Because really, ever since I've been a little
girl, you know, I've always knew that everything had to
come to an end. And when something, you know, has been
taken and sorrow's here, you have to look at it as to say,
well, it was meant. Because as they say, the Lord giveth
and the Lord shall taketh. So right there I don't think
a person, you know, should be sorry for what has happened
because it's really all for the good no matter what it is.
So that shouldn't keep a person from being happy because
they have to live, too.
I: Do you feel that you have the gift of happiness? Of being
happy? That you know how to be happy?
J: Well, everyone tells me I have so I guess I have.
I: Well, I believe you have. And it's a gift I wish every-
body had because some people are quite miserable no matter
what they have in life. Or at least, no matter what they
appear to have in life. Sometimes you can't see below the
LUM 136A 32
surface because there-might be conditions -here-that we
don't understand. But sometimes it seems that the most
fortunate people seem to be the unhappiest people. And
that's not a question, but how do you feel about it?
J: Well, that's something I can't quite put into words.
I: How about your counselors at school? Do you get good
counseling service and this sort of thing?
J: Well, I don't...I wouldn't really say yes and I wouldn't
really say no, because I don't really go to the counselor
that much so I don't really know what it's all about. And
the times I have been I'd say they were really of great
help. They tried, you know, to help you and all that.
So I'd say, well, yes and no:
I: In other words you're the kind of person, as I can imagine,
who doesn't have so many problems that you can't handle
on your own without a lot of advice.
J: I try to solve everything on my own because I think I can.
I: Well, that's great. Of course, if you do need help any-
time, well, it's good to know that the help is there.
Right?
J: Right.
LUM 136A 33
I: Rose Mary, do you often...I know that you're strictly in
the minority in this county, in Hoke County. Do you
often find yourself in situations or in places or in
programs and so on where you're the onlyApresent?
J: Yes, sir. Right now I'm the only Indian in DE. As I
said, you know, I don't let that affect me very much,
because no matter where I'amlI can-makeffriends with any-
body because I'm just that type of person so it really
don't bother me.
I: Do you think that that could be an advantage?
J: I think it could because some people can't even get along
with some people out of their own race.
I: Some people can't get along with anybody.
J: Right.
I: It's good that you have this attitude. I want you to
imagine that we have a glass with water in it, and the
water comes up about midway. Would you describe such
a glass of water as being half-full or half-empty?
J: Well, it's both. It's half-full and it's half-empty.
I: But how do you think about it, though?
J: Well, if I'm looking at it now, I'd say it's half-full.
LUM 136A 34
I: Are there times when you'd think of it as being half-
empty, do you think?
J: Well, I've never really thought of it as half-empty.
I: Well, I'm sure you're an optimistic person and I think
this little test shows. I think if you think of it as
being half-empty, perhaps you would be a little bit pes-
simistic. But if you think of it as being half-full,
then you're positive and optimistic. And you certainly
strike me as an optimistic type of person. Well, I
certainly have enjoyed this interview and I wish we could
go on and on, but I have a ride over here and my driver
sent word long ago that we should go. Is there anything
you'd like to add before we close the interview?
J: No, sir. I think I've talked more than my time.
I: Do you have any advice you'd like to give other young
people?
J: Well, the only advice I can give is to accept things as
they come and to do, you know, do everything you can
possible that will make you in the days to come, well,
you can look back on and be thankful for.
I: That's great. That's great advice. I need that, too.
LUM 136A 35
And again I want to thank you very much for your wil-
lingness to talk to me, and you've been very forthright,
and I really have enjoyed this interview and your exu-
berant personality. And gain I want to wish you Godspeed
in life.in all that you attempt to do.
J: You're welcome, and it was my pleasure.
I: Good night.
J: Good night.
--END OF TAPE--
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