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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 133A
Date: November 22, 1973
Subject: Mrs. Evelyn Lowry
Interviewer: Lew Barton
Typist: Josephine Suslowicz
SIDE I
B: This is November 22, Thanksgiving Day, 1973. I'm Lew-Barton recording for
the University of Florida's History Department and for the Doris Duke
Foundation for American Indian Oral History Program. This afternoon I'm
privileged to be in the home of Mr. and Mrs. David Jackson, and with me is
one of the daughters, who is married, who has kindly consented to give me
an interview. Would you tell us what your name is, please, ma'am?
L: Evelyn Lowry.
B: Who was it you married?
L: Eugene Lowry.
B: Uh, how many brothers and sisters do you have?
L: Five sisters and three brothers.
B: And would you mind giving us their names?
L: Eileen, Norma Jean, Rosemary, Carl, Donna, ilian, and Wentdell.
B: Uh, I won't ask you their ages because, uh, I--I will ask you about your
children, though. How many children do you have?
L: Four.
B: What are their names and ages? Can you remember? Mothers usually can
remember the ages of their children right off, but if you ask a father
you're in trouble. The mothers usually know. You see, the ages are always
changing anyway, and I have to make an excuse for the fathers. I never can
quite keep up with those ages.
L: Uh, Ann Margaret, she is 6 and going to school. She was born October the
third, 1967; Eugene Edwin, he is, uh, four, he was born, uh, October the
23rd, 1969; and Robert Lee, he is--he is two--three. He was born, um,
December the 15th, 1971, and, uh, Bentley, he is one month, and he was born
LUM 133A 2
October the 15th.
B: All right.
L: 1973.
B: That's good, uh, I never had much trouble with the mothers. Uh, who was
it you married?
L: Eugene Lowry.
B: Uh, is this a local boy, or somebody
B: Where did you go to school?
L: I went different places, but I graduated at Hawkeye High School.
B: Uh-huh. Well, I should mention the fact that we are in the community is
near Hawkeye, isn't it. It's not too very far from Hawkeye. As a matter
of fact, it's closer to Ra ford, North Carolina, and we're in Ho e County,
aren't we?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Hoe County used to be upper Robeson. You know, it was cut off from Robeson
in 1911, as I remember, uh, as I remember the dates. I don't remember 1911
now. Uh, what do you do every day?
L: My housekeeping.
B: Uh, what does your husband do?
L: He works at He's in maintenance.
B: He's in maintenance.
L: Un-hum.
B: Uh-huh. Uh, who are his folks?
L: Uh, Willie Lowry, and Helen At_ [/
B: And your mother and father were, uh, Mr. and Mrs. David Jackson, right?
L: That's right.
B: I heard about your father passing away recently and I was very grieved about
LUM 133A 3
this because he was the sort of person I loved, and just about everybody
who knew him loved him, and I'm very sorry to, uh, that this came about.
Uh, how long ago was it that he passed away?
L: About five months now.
B: I know it was a crushing blow to all of you because, uh, your family has
always been so closely knit together, you know, so closely organized and
everything-yad-I always enjoyed coming into this home because, uh, this
was a home where real love prevailed,-uh,.and the mother, and the father,
and the children are always very close together. Is your home like this?
L: Yes, sir.
B: That's good, and you stay home and keep house while your husband works.
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh, what do you think about women out? Uh, do you think it would be better
for the children that they're raising if they did stay home and take care
of the homefront while the husband works away, or do you think it's all right
for them to farm the children out to a day-care centerror somewhere -e&
and work?
L: No, I definitely think it's a mother's place at home with her small
kids.
B: I'm glad to hear you say that. Have you ever heard of an organization known
as Women's Liberation Movement-Women's Lib?
L: (Laughs)
B: What do you think of Women's Lib?
L: Well, I don't really kano-know. It's according to how you look at what
they'?T*b& talking about.
B: Um-hum. Well, I agree with them on one thing, and they think that women
ought to have equal pay for equal work, the same as men. Uh, I'm with them
there, but I don't always agree on everything that they 4-ae-se. Uh,
LUI 133A 4
but, of course, I don't agree with anybody a hundred percent on everything--
ie.
not even the President of the United States. Um, do you have any hobby?
L: No, not really, unless it's cooking.
B: You love to cook?
L: Yes, I like to cook pies and cakes mostly.
B: What do you think of the Lumbee Indian Community and, uh, our cooking?
Do you think, uh, I may be a little bit prejudiced in favor of, uh, our
women. You know, just a few minutes ago I said I thought that Indian women
were the most beautiful women in the world. I'm also a little bit prejudiced
when it comes to their cooking because I always thought Indian women cooked
great. Uh, how do you feel about this?
L: I think they really do. (Laughs)
B: Your mother, uh, Rose is a great cook, wouldn't you agree?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Ayou cook as well as she does?
L: Not by my taste. (Laughs)
B: You still think she can beat your cooking?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Well, that's great. Uh, you went to Hawkeye Schoolt id your-how far did
you get along before you.
L: I finished.
B: You graduated from Hawkeye. What year did you get married?
L: '66.
B: How old were you at that time?
L: Twenty-one.
B: Ob, that's great. Most, you know, there seems to be a tendency in, uh, be"
Indian community for girls to get married at a very early age. Do you think
this is true?
LUM 133A 5
'Ca use
L: No, not really, l-feas. some of them wait until they're pretty old. (Laughs)
B: k t.OJ Oh, my, well I guess I must be wrong then in my obser-
vations. I--I heard of some people getting married along about fourteen.
Wonder how old your mother was when she got married?
L: I don't know, uh, eighteen.
B: Eighteen, oh, that's not bad. Uh, somebody whispered and said seventeen) SO
hee. I don't know which figure to accept.
L: Eighteen.
B: Eighteen,-aeyoa uh-huh. As I recall it, uh, your father, the late David
Jackson, uh, was a minister. Is this correct?
L: No, sir.
B: Uh-huh, but he was a Christian man, wasn't he?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh, what do you think of, uh, parents -fir enhmi*s-raising their children,
or rearing them--we shouldn't say raising them because you raise plants
and things, and you rear children--uh, do you think they're too strict, or
in general now, I'm not asking you about your parents in particular, but,
uh, parents in the Indian Community in general, do you think they're too
strict on their children, or not strict enough, or what, or do you have
any idea?
L: Froem ir T---ranQg they're not strict enough.
B: They're not strict enough. I recall that in the old days, uh, uh, when a
boy was dating a--an Indian girl, uh, they used to call bedtime at nine
o'clock. Do you think this is too early?
L: (Laughs) I don't know.
B: Uh. .
L: I wouldn't. .
B: I'm asking you for your opinion, but if you don't want to comment on it,
LUM 133A 6
that's okay.
L: Mostly it's eleven o'clock, now.
B: Well, we're improving, t least we're changing. Uh, 4^fecs usually
in the community, uh, let the daughter be up till eleven o'clock.
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh, Robeson adjoins-Hoke-Country and that county is spelled H-O-K-E. I'll
say that for the benefit of the girjwho has to type this out. Uh, and,
uh, so we--we consider the Indian Community as a whole, don't we? In other
words, the Indian Community from Robeson County and the Indian Community
in Hoke County is part of the same community overlapping two county lines,
right?
L: Right.
B: UhA are you a church gipYM
L: Yes, sir.
B: Where are you a member? Are you a member of any particular church?
L: No, sir.
B: Uh-huh, you just go to Sunday School and things like this.
L: Yes.
B: Uh-huh. Uh, I've heard somebody say that, uh, Lumbee Indians have more
churches than anybody. Do we have too many churches do you think?
L: No, I don't think we do.
B: You can't have too much of a good thing, can you?
L: (Laughs)
B: I want to ask you for your personal opinion about a matter related to
childrearing, I guess. How old do you think a girl ought to be before she's
allowed to date?
L: Seventeen.
B: Seventeen? Well, how do you feel about inter-racial dating?
LUM 133A 7
L: Um, I don't.
B: You don't feel about it?
L: Z ""5,+
B: You don't approve?
L: Um-um. (Negative)
B: Uh-huh. We know that in the Indian community usually the father is absolute
head of the home, uh, as a rule. All rules have exceptions, of course, but
do you think this is the-natural order of things. Uh, do you think this
istthe--is the way it shoulA be? Whose the boss in your home? Who wears
the pants?
L: My husband. (Laughs)
B: Are you glad of this, uh, do you think this is--do you approve?
L: Yeah, I agree with it.
B: Ur, I guess somebody has to have the final say in just about anything. Uh,
you have a sister named Norma. What do you think of her?
L: (Laughs) She's unbelievable.
B: She's unbelievable. (Laughs) Uh, we like to tease her a little bit, you
and I, sometimes, don't we?
L: Yes, sir.
B: She's so good natured. She takes it all in stride. Are your grandparents
living?
L: Yes, sir, on my mother's side.
B: What are their names?
L: Mr. and Mrs. Bricy Collins, and AwM- Collins.
B: How do you spell, uh, you would spell it B-R-I-C-E-Y?
L: C-Y
B: B-R-I-C-Y, C-0-L-L-I-N-S?
L: Um-hum. (Affirmative)
LUM 133A 8
B: Uh, have you lived in Hoke County--have they lived in Hoke County very
long?
L: They're living in Scotland.
B: Oh, they live in Scotland, which is another county adjoining Robeson, right?
L: Robeson and Hoke.
B: Yes, 4wt-they adjoin both counties, doesn't it? I said they--I should have
said it. Uh, uh, how do you feel, of course, when you finished school,
that was before integration, wasn't it?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh, what do you think about integration now, as you observe it--not as a
person going to school, but as a person who is close to the Indian community?
L: Well, I don't really think it has any Pffect on the kids as of yet.
B: And do you think children are as prejudiced as older people, usually?
L: No.
B: And do you think that integration in the long run, may have beneficial
4-
affects?
L: Yes, sir. I think it will.
B: You have a very talkative sister named, uh, Rosemary, I think. How--what
do you think of her? Is she un--is she unbelievable too?
L: She's
B: (Laughs) Uh, uh, Rosemary says she's going to give me an interview and
she'll get you back. How about that? Uh, your parents to me have always--
seriously--they've been unusual parents. Uh, and I know they've influenced
your life for good, and, and the lives of all you children, uh, because
you're all so very well-behaved, and, uh, what do you think of this? Well,
I guess everybody thinks they have great parents, but don't you know that
you've got absolutely great parents?
L: Yes, sir.
LUM 133A 9
B: Had. Were you brought up on a farm?
L: Yes, sir.
B: What do you think of farming?
L: I like farming.
B: Um-hum. Do you think farming has changed a great deal within recent years?
L: Yes, sir.
B: About what kind of changes have you noticed happening?
L: Uh, they have the tobacco strainer, and now they have the tobacco fenCi
B: How about the cotton picker?
L: Yeah, they have it, but I haven't seen it changing the cotton, unless you
plow it under.
B: Uh-huh. Do you think farms have a tendency to get larger instead of
smaller, and if, uh, do you think that--tha small farmers are just about
doomedrwon't be able to continue because of machines?
L: Well, I think that unless you have one of your own, I don't think youf d
be able to farm in the years to come.
B: Um-hum, so you think farms are going to continue to get bigger? Did you
ever pick any cotton?
L: A little.
B: Were you good at it?
L: No, sir.
B: I've heard some Indian people say they could pick as much as 500 pounds
in a day. Have you ever picked--have you ever picked even 300 in a day?
L: No, sir.
B: (Laughs) What's the most you ever picked in it, do you remember?
L: I don't really know the--my sister and myself we'd put on the same sheet,
see. We'ld get about a hundred and eighty pounds a day.
B: Uh, together?
LUM 133A 10
L: Yes, sir.
B: Ia aa hundred and eighty pounds? Well that's pretty good, I guess. Uh,
I don't-do you remember how much cotton your father could pick?
L: Yes, sir.
B: How much could he pick?
L: Five, uh, five hundred pounds a day and imraT e three labor hands.
B: Hey that's great, and I just don't know how people do it, do you?
L: No, sir.
B: I never in my--I've picked cotton just a--a little--no more than I could
help, but I've never picked two hundred pounds in my life. Uh, but the
cotton picker came along, and so that put a lot of people out of work,
didn't it?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh, of course, industry, uh, are there very many industries in Hoke County,
or would you know?
L: I wouldn't know.
B: We-we call it--in this area we say public work, as opposed to farm work,
don't we?
L: Yes, sir.
B: But does most people do public work, or are most people in the county on
farms in the Indian community) would you think?
L: J public working.
B: Um-hum, uh, Mr. Rogers--what's his first name? Is--isn't he--isn't he a
chief--isn't he chief of the Tuscarora. He lives in Robeson--in Hoke County,
too, doesn't he?
L: Yes-
B: Mr. Elias Rogers, and he is chief of one group of--of the Tuscarora Indians?
L: Yes, sir.
LUM 133A 11
B: Um-hum. Are you a Lumbee or a Tuscarora?
L: A Lumbee.
B: Uh-huh. I heard somebody in the background who is a Cherokee, so I guess
we're well--we're well represented. 4.tj-st hle things got me stuttering
just a little bit. What was it like in the school when you went toY you
know, at Hawkeye and it was completely Indian? Uh, of course, you don't
have any way of comparing it with schools today because, uh, they are
integrated now, and I understand that Hawkeye is very well, uh, integrated
today and I believe they even changed the Indian name from Hawkeye to
South Hoke. Is that right?
L: South Hoke.
B: South Hoke. I wanted to say Hope, but it's H-O-K-E, South Hoke High School.
I taught over at South Hoke for two years, by the way. Uh, do you know
how many students yettnave out there now?
L: It d 2torrr I jtCr'nd-
B: Well, it's much smaller than than it was when I was working over there,
isn't it?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh, do you know who founded the school? Who, uh, do you know Mr. Elisha
Dial?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Is he still living?
L: Yes.
B: He's--he's old and ailing a little? Well, uh, you finished high schooltat
what is now South Hoke, did you go to any other school besides South Hoke?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh, which school were they--or schools?
L: Prospect High School.
LUM 133A 12
B: That's a traditionally Indian school. Go on.
L: Elementary-Union Elementary, and Union Chapel.
B: Um-hum.
L: And Hopewell.
B: Um-hum, all those are traditionally Indian schools, aren't they?
L: Yes, sir, and Gibson.
B: How about Gibson? Is that a traditionally White school?
L: Yes, sir. It's alljAite.
B: How about today, is it still all white?
L: I don't know.
B: Probably integrated, today, but it wasn't integrated when you were going,
was it?
L: No, sir.
B: Were you the only Indian student there?
L: There was about 75 of us.
B: And how many--about--out of about how many students?
L: About nine hundred.
B: That was at Gibson.
L: Yes, sir.
B: Were there any lack students?
L: No, sir.
B: Just Indian and--and white.
L: Yes, sir.
B: Were you treated well?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Uh-huh, uh, do you recall any--any incidents you could call racial incidents
that occurred while you were going?
L: If just that I had one teacher I couldn't get along with.
LUM 133A 13
B: And do you think this had something to do with race?
L: Yes sir.
B: Do you think t teacher was prejudiced?
L: Yes, sir. C ___wea all of us that were Indians.
B: Uh-huh, but there was just one--one teacher you felt this way about?
L: Yes, sir.
B: If you had the opportunity to make one wish, and you knew that wish would
be granted, and that wish could be anything in Hoke County, or Robeson
County, that you would like to see changed, and you knew you could have
this wish, what would you wish for? You want to think about it for a
minute?
L: Uh, that the Indians would get their schools back--be put back in their
place.
B: You would like to see the Indians have their traditionally Indian schools
back?
L: Yes, sir.
B: Are there any particular reasons that you would wish for this?
L: Well, I was brought up that way, and I guess it--it goes along with me.
B: It depends on what you're used to, do you--is that what you mean?
L: Yes.
B: Um-hum, I understand. Uh, is there anything else you'd like to change?
L: No, not really.
B: Um-hum, I certainly appreciate this opportunity to talk with you, and, uh,
I wish we could talk longer, but your husband just came to the door and
said that he was ready to go home, so, uh, I appreciate the time you have
had to give me, and I want to wish you and your family, uh, a very happy
Thanksgiving Day, and thank you so much for talking to us on the American
Indian Oral History Program.
L: Thank you. END OF TAPE
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