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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 131A
Date: November 19, 1973
Subject: John Raymond Brayboy
Interviewer: Bruce Barton
Typist: Josephine Suslowicz
SIDE I
B: This is side 1. We're interviewing John Raymond Brayboy in his residence
in the prospect communittee. November the 19th, 1973. Interviewer: Bruce
Barton. Mr. Brayboy, we appreciate the interview. Would you like to lead
off the interview with a few words of summation telling us a little bit about--
about yourself; how old you are, where you were born, are you married, that
kind of thing?
J: I'm 26 years old. I've lived in Robeson all my life except for the time I
was in service, and I'm married. I got three children, one seven, one five,
and one fifteen months old, and I'm a sprinkler fitter, and I belong to the
union, and, uh, my job takes me all over the state working in different
places, and that's about it, I guess.
B: Could you tell us a little bit about your family background, who your
parents are, who--who raised you, and that kind of thing?
J: My father's name is George Brayboy and my mother's name's Eray.
B: How would you spell that?
J: E-R-A-Y, and I live with my grandfather all my life because my father and
mother separated when I was about a year old, and--and my grandfather's like
a father more than a grandfather, and I lived with him up until the time I
went in service, but he--now he passed away--been dead about two years, and
my mother was killed in a car accident in '64.
B: Jay, (?) you mentioned that-younbeeong to anunion. That's kind of a rarity
in Robeson County, isn't it?
J: It's very rare. There's'nat many people that are in a-union. There's a few
telephone people, and other than that I don't know of anyone else besides
LUM 131A 2
the three or four guys working with me that are in the -.C sprinkler
union.
B: Could you tell us a little bit about how you got in the union, because it's
so rare a word of background might be helpful.
J: Well, I was working with a fellow when I was working with Crawford. Crawford's
a a-"si n company, and this fellow, his name's Jack Knight, was working
with them, and he was telling me about being in the union, and he told me
I should join it if I was going to stay in A P d so eventually I
quit working with Crawfor, and I was out looking for a job, and someone
told me that--about theV v)e company A 0 A\ri rhtI and
I went up there to see, and they told me I'ld have to join the union, which
I didn't object to, and they had to fill out the papers, and it took a
couple of weeks, and then I went to work, and that's how I got started.
B: Okay, were you raised on a farm?
J: Yes, I was.
B: Uh, was this in the Prospect CommunitA?
J: Yes.
B: And, uh, what kind of farm was it? Did you raise--what kind of crops was
raised on the farm? This was your grandfather's farm?
J: Yes, well, we had some tobacco, and cotton, and corn, and--and the later
part of the time we added a few things, but most-it was tobacco, and corn,
and cotton.
B: Where did you attend school, John?
J: I went to Prospect.
B: Is this elementary school and high school?
J: Yes.
B: Did you have any further education?
LUM 131A 3
J: Well, I went about a year and a half to Pembroke State College.
B: And after that--after you finished, uh, at Pembroke State you went in
service? Is this right?
J: Yes.
B: See any service overseas?
J: I went to Vietnam.
B: How long were you in Vietnam?
J: A year.
B: See any action?
J: Plenty of it.
B: (Laughs) Alright, alright. How was it for a Indian in service? Was it,
uh, any different than--any discrimination, anything you might remember
that, uh, set you apart, or is service different now?
J: Well, there's--there's nothing--no discrimination against Indians. Every-
body liked to joke and carry on with the Indians, but there was not--there
was variety just seeing a Indian in service, and they liked to pick, and
pick at them about living in teepees and things like that, but it was--no,
no harm by it, and usually ninety percent of the White people would tell you
they had part Indian in them. It never failed.
B: Had some of those people that, uh, his grandmother--grandmother was a
Sherokee? (Laughs)
J: Yep.
B: Alright, so we got you up to service. How was it growing up in Robeson
County as an Indian?" Tell us a little about your boyhood.
J: Well, I guess it was hard at times, but I used to get up early in the morn-
ing before I went to school, and get the mule out, and plow a couple of
acres of corn or cotton, or something, before I went to school, and then
I'ld go to school, come in and eat, and then work until dark, and then set
LUM 131A 4
down and listen tq papa tell stories about the old times and AdbU t all
of his people, and how they used to be. It was interesting listening to
his old stories.
B: What kind of stories did he tell?
J: Well, he would tell about people going off to Georgia to work the turpentine,
and people stealing other peoples wives, and running away and things like
this.
B: (Laughs) Let's see, what was your, uh, this was your grandfather that
raised you?
J: Right.
B: What was his name?
J: John Bo C 2d4eCtr
B: Was he an interesting fellow?
J: Quite interesting.
B: I've heard you tell a story about when you returned from service how he
woke you up one morning. Would you like to recount that for us?
J: Yeah, he--he liked for you to get up early in the morning. He didn't want
you in bed after six o'clock, and I thought that I got grown since I'ld
been to Vietnam, and--and I'ld been in service, and he called me one morn-
ing about six o'clock, and I told him to leave me alone. I wanted to rest
awhile. I'ld been out late that night, anyway, and so he went on, and I
thought he'd gone and left me alone--went off hunting, and he went--
apparently went out to the barn to feed the mule and the hogs, and after
a while he come back and stood in the door at the foot of the bed, and shot
out the door, and I got out of bed then, in a hurry. (Laughs) I,...
grabbed my--jumped in my pants and grabbed hy shoes and shirt, and went on
down the road. I stopped down at I and I was shaking like a leaf
on a tree.
LUM 131A 5
B: (Laughs) Did--what did boys do for a diversion, when you were a boy
growing up? Uh, recreation--where did kids go on the weekend, how--where
did guys take their girls courting, that kind of thing?
J: Well, they went out to--when it's courting time, they usually go to Prospect
Drive-In, or to a dance, or something, but when I was a little boy, there
was not too much to do. There was nobody around that I could play with,
but the--except maybe on Sunday when my cousins would come over, and we'ld
run and chase each other, play cowboys and Indians.
B: Did you be the cowboy or the Indian?
J: Well, it's different ways. Sometimes the cowboy, and sometimes the Indian,
but I used to--papa would send me off somewhere and I had a buddy. Oh,
"** I 'Id stop by his house and we would play baseball with corncobs.
(Laughs) And get us a stick and knock--hit the corncob and run to the
base and back. We played hours at a time like that.
B: So you didn't have many toys when you were growing up?
J: Very few.
B: Let's see, how old are you?
J: 26
B: And your grandfather believed that hard work was, uh, a virtue of a good
man?
J: Yes.
B: Do you know if he ever--did your grandfather ever did any traveling, or
was he--live all his life here in Robeson County.
J: Well, the farthest he ever went was to the beach and back.
B: That's as far as he ever went? How old was he when he died?
J: He was 86.
B: I don't know whether that's sad or not, because sometimes people really
LUM 131A 6
don't have to go far afield to learn about life. So, what do you think
about farming? Did, uh, being raised on a farm change your mind about being
a farmer when you grew up?
J: No, not really. Farming is a good life. It's--well, you're more or less
your own boss. You don't have a certain schedule to go by. You work when
you feel like it. If it's too hot, you can wait till it cools offhand do
your work, unless you've got a lot of it to do.
B: Yeah, one of the things we're interested in in this series of interviews
is seeing how people do ordinary things, like going to school, courting,
getting married. Where did you meet your wife?
J: Well, it--I was--me and Richard was running around together, and
he met this woman, and her and Connie were messing around together, and I
had told him I'ld seen her on the street, and I told him I'ld like to date
her, and he called--I'ld been to work at Braysborough, I believe, and I
come in that night, and he called me on the phone and told me that he had
me a date with her, and, well, I didn't believe it, and he--I thought he
said some other night, but he said that night, and so I went down there
and picked her up, and I don't think she knew who she was going off with.
B: (Laughs)
J: She was supposed to went somewhere else, and she had to be sure that I was
going to bring her back in time to go where she was going. It was the only
was she'd go, so she went, and i r 1&- Lk e I made a date with her
for another time, and everything worked out.
B: Was she hard to catch? She give you a run for your money?
J: She--not really. She just hard about her--having her strange ways.
B: (Laughs) Strange ways. You mean she's, uh, kind of strange?
J: She's not like--like normal people.
LUM 131A 7
B: (Laughs) That's one way of putting it. You having any regrets about getting
married?
J: No, not really.
B: Except on payday.
J: Once in a while. There's no big thing on payday anymore. She's beginning
to agree with my. .
B: Looking back at it in retrospect, if you had it to go back over again, would
you get married?
J: Yes, sir.
B: Well, that's interesting, being a 32 year old bachelor. You have three
boys. What kind of hope do you have for your boys?
J: Well, I hope to have a doctor, and a lawyer, and a football player--base-
ball player, anyway.
B: (Laughs) That's a pretty good hope. How do you feel about being an Indian
of Robeson County? Have you found it to be difficult growing up being an
Indian? Well, at times, I guess, but all in all it's--well, I may be in a
different situation than most people since I got up and got out to work,
and I worked away from home, and it's--the--the discrimination is not like
it is here, and so t-& ly you find people away from home they're
interested in you being Indian. They don't--it's not no thing about being
SL against you.
B: Not a liability away from Robeson County.
J: No, it's an asset.
B: How do you feel about the school system, since you have two boys that are
in school, and you have one won't be too many years away from going to
school. How do you see ways for them to improve the school so that your
boys get a decent education?
LUM 131A 8
J: Well, I don't knowifast what really to say about that. I guess I'm partial
that we've had our own schools so long. They want--now they've integrated
them and set up this bussing situation which is a disadvantage, I think,
to a lot of children, which it's not really affecting mine, I guess, because
being so close to the school, but all in all, when they're having to bus
children that's right close to one school off to another school, I don't
think it's a good thing, but maybe even if they--they've got to be inte-
grated, maybe if they get the right teachers from different areas, they
get better--a better education. I don't know, though, but I guess maybe
I'm old-fashioned. I like Indians going to Indian schools, and Whites
going to theirs, and Blacks to theirs.
B: What about if, uh, doing it that way, if, uh, Indians and Blacks get the
short end of the stick? Could you still live with it?
J: Well, I guess, if there's no way around it, you have to live with it, but
I wouldn't want to agree with that. It's--tha c *.
somebody's--we amirle do something about Indians and Blacks getting the
short end of the stick. It's been like that since I can remember, and it's--
which I think is--they're not going to be too much getting the short end
of the stick anymore. I think the Indians have found out that--and the
Blacks that they can retaliate against things like this.
B: It ought to be a good day when we can all get some equity. When you were
a boy, John, did you have to attend church regularly?
J: Yeah, it's a kind of funny thing, though, uh, it--maybe it's not funny, but
my momma used to go to church and papa would keep me at home on Sunday morn-
ing, and I heard him tell it many time that one Sunday morning I was push-
ing the chair across the floor by about four years old, and I just pushed
the chair back and forth across the floor, and he said, f t I'll
fix you next Sunday, if you can push a chair back and forth across the floor
LUM 131A 9
you can go to church. So he started sending me to church, and I went to
church every Sunday up until the time I went in service, and then, after
I got out of service I got slack on it for a while, but well, after I got
married, I started going back to church then, and I go about every Sunday.
B: Which church, or what denomination do you attend?
J: Now I go to Holiness Church, but before I was going to the Methodist church,
and I think--well, I went to the Methodist church that I attended since
I been going to Holiness church, and I've found that I like--I'ld rather
go to the Holiness church. It seems that it's--well, there's a lot of
difference i________ that the peoples' more in the spirit in
the Holiness church than there are in the Methodist?
B: So that's why you'ld rather go to the Holiness church, because people are
more, uh, demonstrative?
J: Yeah.
B: In what way? Do they shout?
J: Well, they shout, and go on. Well, they seem to be much closer to the
Lord than they are in the Methodist church, and they express their feelings
alot more.
B: What about your boys? Do you try to get them to church every Sunday? Do
you think it's a good thing to send children to school when they're young?
J: Yeah, to church. Yeah, it's a good thing to send them to church. I think
it--well, if it groes up in them, they're more likely to go to church when
they get grown, and raise their children to go too.
J: Do you find that most Indian people do attend church regularly?
B: The majority of them go to church. Well, most Indian people of our church
people, they've been raised like that. They--maybe they don't know any
better, but it's a good thing if they don't know any better, but you find
that they all, uh, tied to the church, the majority of them, some way or
LUM 131A 10
other.
B: The only irony I see in that is that there's such a high mortality rate
among Indians. You know, Indians killing Indians. I wonder what the core-
lation is, if any. It's kind of--I've never been able to figure out why
Indians are so prone to go to church and so tied to church, and yet so
many Indians kill Indians. Can you make any sense of that?
J: Well, I never thought about it, um, but it's true. I don't know. Uh,
Indians are high tempered, I guess, and when they get mad they think about
killing for the first thing, and maybe that's what it is.
B: Why do you think, uh, Indians are so prone to kill each other. Do you
think it's, uh, a sense of what they call manhood? To not let any slight
go uncontested? And if you--seems to me, when I was a boy, if you hurt
somebody's manhood, you more than likely you're going to have to shoot him
or he's going to shoot you. Have you found this to be true?
J: I think that that's a big part of it, and a lot of times, I guess, they __
S+and they don't want their pride hurt, and they want--they
decide that they're going to cut him, or shoot him, or something to get even
with him.
B: I've heard some VCti P references to bootleggers, and you being a young
man, and having lived here during your--your teenage years, and young
adult years, do you know very much about bootleggers? Is this a reality?
Were there really bootleggers, and what did people do when they went to a
bootlegger?
J: It's a reality, alright, and it's still going on. There's people--what it
is people can't go to a store and buy beer and liquor--well, they can get
liquor in a liquor store, but it's not like going to somebody's house and
sitting down and drinking beer or liquor, and talking to your friends,
LUM 131A 11
and going on and talking about what you done this week, and what girl you
went off with last night, and things like that. It's just a place people
could go and sit down and talk, and usually some 1 7 somebody--stranger
comes in, or it's somebody that somebody's got a grudge against and they
decide that that's the time and the place to take care of it, and they end
up an argument, or somebody getting hurt.
B: What do you think we can do to combat this?
J: Well, I think the biggest--biggest thing that would combat it and for--save
the people from having to pay fines in court for being caught for selling
unlegal beer and liquor, is if we had Vh kind of W f it would
eliminate a lot of it, and I think that a lot of people drink like that
just because it's--it's against the rules. People like to go against the
rules just because they're there, for some reason.
B: What do you think we could do as far as, uh, finding something for the
young to do? Does this seem to be a problem to you, along this same line
that there's really nothing to do for the youngsters?
J: Yes, well, like when I was coming up there was nowhere to go unless you
went to somebody's house and played with other kids, and I think that you
need some kind of recreation center set up where--where the kids can come
and play baseball, or maybe somewhere where they can swim, and, like me,
I--I'm 26 years old, and I never learned how to swim, and--and the reason
for that was papa told me that I ought to not get in the water until I
learned how to swim. (Laughs) I often wonder how I'm supposed to learn
how to swim if I didn't get in the water, but I think that children need
to learn how to swim, and to play different games--play baseball, and all
things--sort of things like that, and they need a place to go where they
can do all these things well. Now like, our J.C. chapter started the boy-
LUM 131A 12
scout club I started, and that's a good thing for kids. It gives them
something to do, and they take them on camping trips. That's something
that children really look forward to, and it's things like that that can
help the kids a lot, but you've got to get people involved to help--to do
things like that.
B: Okay, now we're talking about some of the things that the, uh, White people
have done with success, and you know, there's a movement going on now--it's
going--fE Indian movement. What do you think our role is? Is
it to, uh, do you think we should go back to the old traditional ways and
find out how the old Indians used to do it, and go back to that way, or do
you think we ought to take part in the economic and social and political
life in Robeson County?
J: Well, I don't know if going back to the old Indian ways, like they do on
reservations, would cut it with most people. I don't believe I could live
that way. I think we need to gdt in the political life and, and well, as
far as the economic, we've got to educate the children now, so that they
can get in, uh, fit into the economy situation, because it's--education is
an important thing. It's an important factor in whether--how much money
you're going to make, and if you're not educated, you're not going to make
"a whole lot of money. It's because the White man's not going to give you
"a job making a lot of money if--just because you r_ OJ it if you've not
got the education, and politically you've got to get the people out that's
not helping the Indian people, and get people in there that will help them,
and you've got to have Indians that wants to help the Indian people, and
it's for sure that the White man's not going to do anything to help. him if
he can help himself.
B: How was it at Pembroke State University when you were there? Were there
LUM 131A 13
many Indian students there at that time, and when was it?
J: It was in '64 and '65, and well, there's not really--percentage wise there's
not very many there, and I guess there's maybe even less now, is it, when
you compare it to the White--number of White people that--and others that
are there now.
B: Do you ever foresee the day when you'll go back to college, or the University?
J: I don't know. I'ld like to, but the job I've got--well, I'ld like to go
and take some night courses, but the job I've got is unpredictable about
how long I'm going to be at home until--I don't know, unless I get a job
close to home that would last a year or so, but there's not any chance
unless I just quit my job and take another job.
B: Alright, so you're one of the few people I know--Indians living in Robeson
County that belongs to a union. Would you, uh, would you recommend union-
izing all the industries in Robeson County? If so, why?
J: Yes, I would recommend it because it would be a big economic boost to the
Indian people alone, much less the county, because it would mean at least
two or three thousand dollars more per year per family, and two or three
thousand dollars a year more per family would make a difference--a lot of
difference in the majority of the people--Indian people working in plants,
and their economic standings.
B: So you think a little union, activity wouldn't hurt?
J: Not at all, and then, too, there'ld be less jeaperdy in their jobs. They
wouldn't have to worry about whether they worked, didn't do what the employer
wanted as far as working overtime, and if they didn't want to work over-
time, they wouldn't have to worry about it when they got back Monday. He
ain't firing them for not working overtime, or something, maybe, that they
weren't supposed to do, and that they have to do now to keep their jobs.
LUM 131A 14
B: Yeah, we'll continue this on side 2.
SIDE II
B: This is side 2 continuing the interview with John Raymond Brayboy. Inter-
viewer: Bruce Barton. Okay, continuing this discussion with the unions,
why do you think there isn't more unions in Robeson County? Do you have
any thoughts on that?
J: Well, the biggest thing is that the people are led to believe that they are
bad, and they're not good for the economy. They put--they are told that if
they have a union, that the plant will close down, and the people believe
that, and too, they tell them that they'll lose their houses that they got
money invested in, and--and that they ain't got no job, there ain't no
way they can pay for it, and they can't borrow any money from the bank if
they've got a union, and things like this.
B: They're probably pulling our leg, don't you reckon?
J: Yeah.
B: Alright, John, let's go on to something else. How do you feel about Tus-
carora Indians in general? What's your feelings on that.
J: Well, I don't think I'ld want to be a Tuscarora, but they've got their
beliefs, and they're not claiming that they're White people, or anything.
They still claim to be Indians. As long as they're Indians, that's the
important thing, and they've got some good beliefs. Some of the activities
have been sort of violent, but sometimes maybe you have to resort to violence
to get any results out of things, but all in all, it's what they believe,
and if they believe it, that's good. It's a good thing that you can have
different beliefs, and if it's--and it's all working for a good cause--
working for the betterment of the Indian people, and it's--and they're
still being Indians, that's--that's good. They're not getting away from
LUM 131A 15
their identity.
B: I infer from this that you--you're satisfied with the name Lumbee.
J: Very much so.
B: Why do you think they named us Lumbee?
J: Because we live on the Lumber River.
B: That seems to be reason enough, and it doesn't bother you that when that law
was passed naming us Lumbee Indians, that it doesn't, uh, uh, entitle us to
the same, so called, benefits as other Indians, specifically reservation
Indians?
J: No, it doesn't bother me. I--I'm not looking for a handout, and I don't
think I'ld want a handout and somebody telling me that I had to do certain
things in order to get it.
B: You wouldn't want to live on a reservation?
J: (Laughs) No.
B: And you wouldn't want the--thejl.A. to tell you how to run your business?
J: No, not at all.
B: How about if there was an oil well on your little piece of land?
J: It just--what? If I was on a reservation?
B: Yeah.
J: If there's oil on my little piece of land, I'ld want to own it.
B: (Laughs)
J: Not somebody else.
B: (Laughs) Do you think, uh, Uncle Sam's been known to rook an Indian here
and there?
J: Seems he has.
B: You think he did it on purpose?
J: Well, the government--government may not have done it on purpose, but the
people that was handling the situation done it on purpose for their own
benefit.
LUM 131A 16
B: How do you identify with other Indians across the country; those that
live on reservations, and, uh, well for instance, some of the Indians who've
been in jail, supposedly to help others, has been pretty well-known people:
Dennis Banks, uh, Bellicourt, and a few others. Do you identify with these
people?
J: Uh, I don't quite understand.
B: I mean do you--in the Indian way--do you feel like you're brothers and you
have something in common?
J: Well I think we've got something in common with all Indians, and we've all
striving to make things better for the Indian people.
B: Because of our peculiar nature, and, uh, because of the peculiarity of the
law that named us Lumbee Indian in 1956, naming us Lumbee Indians but exclud-
ing us from any benefits that might be coming to other Indians, and because
of the physical makeup of our people, whereas we have some black skinned
people, and occasionally, uh, a blue-eyed, blond headed Indian, where do
you think we came from?
J: Well, I'ld like to go along with the theory that we come from the lost
colony, which I believe it's as solid a theory as there is, and I would
like to think that we did come from the lost colony. There's no other trace,
and we don't have any other trace of it.
B: Why do you think we came from the lost colony? This is John White's lost
colony? C
J: Yes. Well, that's from the name GSeu'an being left on the trees, and they
say that the people left who believed that some kind of writing, or something
on the trees so that the people would know where they were at when they come
back.
B: And we do have a blue-eye crop up every now and then.
B:
LUM 131A 17
J: And a blond head.
B: (Laughs) So you think that's from Virginia 2re& and her folks.
J: In all probability.
B: Okay, have you ever been to any of the Tuscarora Indian meetings?
J: No.
B: Would you like to go and see what they do?
J: Well, I would like to go, but--nor am I afeared by not going.
B: What makes you say that?
J: Well, they been kind of violent at times, and they let it be known that they
don't like anybody that's a Lumbee, and if I went, I'ld probably tell them
I was a Tuscarora.
B: (Laughs) But you think they are basically good, sincere people who are--
who are entitled to their beliefs?
J: Yeah, they're basically sincere. I know a few of them. I've got some friends
in the Tuscaroras, and they're--since they're just like the Lumbees are.
They just got the belief, maybe a little different. Don't--well, the biggest
thing is that they really believe they're Tuscaroras and they were mistreated
by being given the name Lumbee.
B: That doesn't--the name Lumbee doesn't bother you personally?
J: Not at all
B: Do you have any desire to move away from Robeson County, or is this where
you want to live?
J: Sometimes I get aggravated and wish there was somewhere else, but I don't
have no desire to leave and stay away. I think I got broke from that in a
hurry. I went to Baltimore and worked about two weeks and a half, and I
liked to starve up there, and the people up there are not like they are here.
The people will talk to you here4 but up there they don't have time, and they
don't take up time with strangers, unless you're very forward, and I'm not
LUM 131A 18
forward, and not crazy to go out and talk to people unless it's something
you got to do to find out about something, but I like living in Robeson
County, and I like living where I'm at. I wouldn't want to live in any
other part of the county, but it's just that--I guess, the Southern
hospitality that's the greatest thing in the world.
B: Do you take part in politics in Robeson County?
J: No, I don't take any part other than voting.
B: Why?
J: Well, it seems that there's a few people in4Ih!.'LCt that doing all the
decision making for everybody else, and they don't try to find out what
everybody else thinks about it, and so, and if they decide anything, they go
ahead and do it, and then you find out about it a week or two later.
B: So you think, probably, that there's about a hardy dozen that's making all
the decisions, and you think maybe--are these Indian people you're talking
about?
J: Yeah, the famous Eighteen they calls it.
B: (Laughs) The ones that, uh, run everything for Indians.
J: Right.
B: Do you think maybe this might have something to do with the deprivation that
the general Indian feels in Robeson County because he's not, uh, maybe not
allowed, but not invited to take part in the political process?
J: I think so. They feel that, alot of them, that if they get an Indian in
there, he's going to turn White on them, and they just might as well just
go ahead and have a White man in the office anyway.
B: That's kind of sad, but I think that's a pretty true reading of the situation.
How about the judicial process in Robeson County? Have you ever had to go to
traffic court or anything like this, and notice, maybe, proportion as to how
many Indians versus Whites you see in court?
LUM 131A 19
J: Well, I've been to traffic court several times, and, well, I've been tPAfbQXl
and the majority of the people are Indians.
B: You mean the ones being tried?
J: The ones being tried are Indians. The majority of them are Indians and
Blacks--very few White people.
B: Do you know of any Indian judges in Robeson County?
J: No, there's not any. Now, there was one one time, but after they made the--
changed the courts into district courts, they voted the Indian judge out
of--which was h&C VR j
B: How about highway patrolmen?
J: Uh, I think we've got one, or did have one Indian, but I think he's quit' and
IjN wV*4 44 F0,40
B: (Laughs) Probably outnumbered. How about, uh, does the school situation
bother you any?
J: Well, the biggest thing bothers me is bussing. It's--I think they spend a
lot of tax money unnecessarily running busses all over the country--all over
the county, when it's not necessary, and we've got three or four children in
one household and they going to two different--two or three different schools,
and that's uncalled for jy *i
B: What kind of future do you see for your children in Robeson County?
J: Well I think they're going, basically, they'll probably get a better educa-
tion. It's there if they want it, and as far as getting money to get an
education, if they want to get an education, and go to law school or doc--to
be a doctor, I think the chances are much greater than they were when I
was going to school.
B: You would encourage your boys to go on and get as much education as they
could?
J: Just as much as they can get, and as long as it's there, I'll encourage them
LUM 131A 20
to take all of it they can get.
B: Well, one thing that interests me is, uh, attitudes in Robeson County. What
do you think's been the biggest, uh, drawback to Indian people in Robeson
County in your estimation as far as, uh, molding people's attitudes and
getting--keeping Indians in line, and getting them to do what they want them
to do?
J: Well, uh, I think that the White man has misled Indians so long, and that
once somebody tried to do something for them, they think that it's just a
hoax and they're not really going to be able to do anything, and they think
that if somebody tried and they failed, they think that everything else was
going to fail, and it's just hard to convince Indians that things is going to
get any better for them.
B: The Robesonion is the daily newspaper in Robeson County. Do you think,
generally speaking, and I know you can't be specific on any particular thing,
but do you think, generally speaking, that e Robesonion is anti-Indian, or
pro-Indian in its news reporting?
J: Anti-Indian.
B: Why would you say that?
J: Well, if anything bad happens to Indians,. ie Robesonion is the first to
carry it. If there's anything good, they say as little about it as they can--
no more than they have to, and it's--they just play up the Indian to be a bad
B: Why do you think so many Indians subscribe toThe Robesonion?
J: Well, it's been the only every day paper in the county for years, and I think
maybe that's the biggest reason they do it--to get the news.
B: Do you subscribe torhe Robesonion?
J: Not any more. I used to, but I quit.
B: You see any hope for the future in this area?
LUM 131A 21
J: Well, I think that there's hope. Indians are slow to convince, but once
you get them convinced and get them on your side, they--and they see the
light, then they usually stay with you and go along with what you've got to
say.
B: Right now, in your way of thinking, uh, how do you think Indians are going to
do politically in the coming years.
J: Well, I think the political situation is going to turn around, and you're
going to have more Indians in public office. Not just in the county, it's
going to be in the state legislature, and places like that.
B: Do you think an Indian could be the superintendent of the Robeson County
School System and get the support and cooperation from other Indians?
J: Yes, uh, well, I think he could be, and, uh, there's several Indians that are
qualified for that job, and I think they could do a lot better job of running
the county's schools than Young Allen's doing. --
B: You're not, necessarily, a great big fan of Young Allen's?
J: Not a fan at all. I don't care anything about him. I'ld really like to see
him out of office.
B: Do you think things are getting better or worse?
J: Well, sometimes I think they're getting better, and then, againl"ttooks like
it might be getting worse. I don't know. It's up and down.
B: What do you think's the biggest problem facing Indians in Robeson County right
now?
J: Well the biggest problem facing Indians, I think, is that the--the majority
of them are the economic situation, and they're not got enough education to
compete with the White man.
B: See any ways to change this?
J: Well, you've got to educate the people. Of course, they've got this technical
schools that even people that's up in their twenties can go to and learn a
LUM 13 A 22
trade, and then against still, a lot of trades that you learn you can't put
to use in the county-because there's--like the work I'm in, uh, you've got to
leave home to do it, in most cases, but still, even if you had to leave home
and stay away a week at a time they'd be better off economically than they
are now.
B: In spite of everything you know about being a Lumbee Indian of Robeson County,
are you proud to be an Indian, and if not, what else would you rather be?
J: There's nothing else I'ld rather be. I'ld rather be an Indian.
B: Well, I think we've covered the situation fairly well, and I certainly appre-
ciate you taking the time to give me this interview, and I hope we'll be able
to talk again at a future date. Thank you.
J: You're welcome.
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