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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 127A
MV- Karen Blu, Ph.D. (B)
New York, New York
Interviewer: Brenda Brooks (I)
August 21, 1973
I: Today is August 21, 1973, in my home, Route 1, College
Court, in Pembroke. This is Brenda Brooks interviewing
Miss Karen Blu. Karen, give me some of your personal
history e.
B: I was born August 20, 1941 in Illinois. And I did my
undergraduate work at College, my graduate work
at the University of Chicago. It was during my graduate
period at the University of Chicago that I did field work-
here. I'm an anthropologist and I have my Ph. D., 1972,
from the University of Chicago.
I: Robeson County being such a very rural and comparatively
small place, how did you 14 out about Lumbee Indians
and Robeson County way in the north where you were? What
sparked your coming here?
B: Well, I had an advisor, Professor Raymond Fogelson.
I: Raymond Fogelson?
B: Right.
I: Spell that for me.
B: F-o-g-e-l-s-o-n, who had worked with the Eastern Cherokee.
LUM 127A 2
And I asked him--I wanted to work in the Southeast--
and I asked him what to work on and he gave me a lot
of literature on the Southeast and said look through it
and see what strikes you. And the Lumbee just jumped
out because they were such a large group -Wc b -
^sept s2 A V ~lopr -cr
there was no material basically on them.
And I said, "Why is this?" And he said, "Well, people
just haven't worked there." I said, "But it's large."
And he said, "That's right, and I think it's a fascinating
problem but nobody so far has done it." "Well, maybe I
will." And then I moved to Washington, D.C., and I met
William Sturtevant who is a curator at the Smithsonian
Institution. And he thought it was also a good project.
And with their mutual blessings, I came down here +o S-u
lskS Z ccMAA Se-e,
I: You must have found more material, though. You said
there was so little written about us. Did you find
more material to entice you to come even...?
B: Well, everything that I read, I did get into the history
and the few little things that I could. And at the time
I read everything there was. Before I came here I read
everything that I could lay my hands on that had been
written about the group here, and most of the published
LUM 127A 3
historical sources. There's been a lot more done since
then.
I: And you were here at what time? What year were you here?
B: We were here from about April, '67, through August of '68.
I: And what was your actual day-to-day routine like here?
Were you...?
B: Oh, we lived right in Pembroke.
I: You lived in the Indian community, and what did you find
youtmaterial? How did you research?
B: Just talked to people.
I: You talked to Indian people here to do your...and what?
Working toward your dissertation or what?
B: My Ph. D.
I: Your Ph.D. And at this time, your husband...
B: Was also working for his Ph.D. He did his field work a-
has his dissertation from the kBw school of Social Research.
I: And you were both in the same field, anthropology.
B: Yes.
I: And having lived in the Indian community, did you feel
accepted by the Indian community?
B: Well, some folks liked us and some didn't.
I: Did you attend the Indian churches and the social events,
as they are, that...?
B: Yes, we did.
LUM 127A 4
I: And some of the people that you may have met during the
time you were here, what category were they? Were they
mostly farmers you talked to, or did you try to get a
variety of people?
B: Well, we tried to talk to all kinds of people, people
who worked in factories or people who worked on farms,
people who were sharecroppers, people who were land-
owners. Also tried to talk, in addition to talking to
Indians which we did mostly because we. lived in the
Indian community, we also tried to talk to some whites.
Most of those lived in Lumberton, I suppose. And we
tried to talk to some blacks.
I: What kinds of things were you seeking to learn from
the Indian community?
B: Well, it seem to me that one of the striking problems
here that Indians^was a- ppblem also, was the question
of identity. Clearly the community here is a distinct
one from the whites and blacks, but from all the literature
it wasn't exactly clear why this is so. And what I wanted
to do was find out how this _____ worked. Where
people found their identity, which they obviously had to
have or they wouldn't have been a separate community, and
what it was like and what it was all about.
LUM 127A 5
I: And so now I guess you can tell me who I am and what
I am from all your research!
B: No, you can tell me.
I: To go more into your study, maybe some of the things
you found out that maybe we couldn't be pinpointed as
a stereotyped Indian group. Did you find any uniquenesses
among the Indians? I mean our cooking methods, or things
that most whites might expect to find if you mention
"Indian" to them. They have stereo ideas of Indians and
they think that we're all blanket weavers or we live in
teepees or on a reservation. Are there, out in little
Robeson County, uniquenesses that you might describe as
far as cooking habits or anything like this that you
detected in your study?
B: Well,,what the main thrust of my study was.that as a
matter of fact you don't look for uniqueness when you
look for separate identities. Or you needn't necessarily
look for uniqueness, because that's been the problem all
along. I mean, other Indian groups have this very same
problem and that is as soon as they stop weaving baskets
or blankets or whatever, as soon as they start wearing
clothes like everybody else, immediately all the whites
around or all the people that are not Indians say, "Oh,
you're not Indian anymore." And of course, that wasn't
LUM 127A 6
what made them Indian to begin with, necessarily. I mean
that was a part of being Indian at one time, but now
a part of being Indian is wearing blue jeans and a Stetson
hat if you're a Sioux Indian, or overalls and smoking a
corncob pipe if you're a Lumbee farmer. Or wearing
stockings and a dress if you're a woman going to church,
a Lumbee woman going to church. So it doesn't lie in
uniqueness, it's the way people do things, the way they
talk to one another, the kinds of things that they talk
about and the kinds of relationships they have. The
way they walk, the way people talk, the meanings that
they give to words rather than the words that they use.
I: Well, just these areas that you've mentioned, I can certainly
appreciate your description because so often in my con-
frontations to maybe attain goals that are not necessarily
ascribed to Indians, someone has compared me to Indians
on reservations. And I say, well, why not compare me to
my fellow white girl in Robeson County rather than to try
to say, "Well, you're surpassing standards of Cherokee
Indian girls." Let me set my goals the same as other girls U
because I'm a human being in Robeson County. But, because
you said the way that people relate to each other maybe
has determined whether they're Lumbee or not, what kinds
LUM 127A 7
of things could one expect to have heard Indian groups
talking about? Maybe if you walk into, well, our county
fair is an example. If you find a group of Indians, men
and women, perhaps, what kind of things might we hear them
discussing in 1968?
B: Well, it's not necessarily the kinds of things that we find
people discussing, it's the way they do it. And to get
that...I really find it very difficult to talk about it
without having notes here. Some of that's in the disser-
tation and I think that's probably the best place to look
for it.
I: Well, how they talk, then. Do you mean the actual vocabulary
used?
B: No, no.
I: Or the way they just feel comfortable talking to each
other whereas they couldn't talk to a multi-racial group
with that same ease? Is this the kind of...?
B: No, it's not that exactly. It's...for example, if you
walked into a dance hall and you found whites and Indians
and blacks there. And you looked out on the floor and you
saw couples dancing and whites were dancing with whites and
Indians with Indians and blacks with blacks--if that were
the case. You would see probably today tAxt each
group would have a different style of dancing. They would
LUM 127A 8
all be dancing to the same music. They might even be
using the same steps sometimes, but they'd all look dif-
ferent because they carry their bodies a little differently.
The rhythms that they respond to are slightly different,
whatever. So this is the kind of thing that I'm talking
about. How close you stand to one another, how close
do blacks stand, how close do whites stand. Do you use
lots of hand motions when you talk? Don't you? What
do you mean when you say "mean"? If you say somebody's
a mean person or that we're mean people, something of
tht sort. What does it mean to say that if you're a
Lumbee? Does it mean the same thing if you say it and
you're black? Does it mean the same thing if you say
it and you're white? No, it doesn't, as a matter of fact.
Mean the same thing. This
is the kind of thing that it seemed to me that's where you
have to look. And it's also where you have to look for
Indian identity in urban Indian situations as well. Urban
Indians and many other Indians, both reservation and non-
reservation, are finding themselves in the same position
as the Lumbee now. And they are constantly met with a
barrage of people telling them that they're not really
Indians. And yet, and they know that they are, but they
LUM 127A 9
find it very difficult to respond since everybody's
looking for these things like wearing feathers and
making pots doing silver jewelry and stuff like that.
I: It's a matter of white brainwashing, I refer to it.
But according to what you said, it would be just as
logical to go and study a group of white Americans.
You could find characteristics among them, but usually
we think of all these studies of minority groups. But
there are white groups, well, any white group you could
do the same type study and come up with probably similar
findings.
B: That's true, except in this case it was easier to study
a group like this because it had boundaries. White-
groups, if you study an ethnic community in an urban
situation, say, first of all it tends to be very large
and unwieldy. And second of all, they merge too easily
with the rest of the population. In other words, the
boundaries aren't drawn in quite the way they are here
where they're racial, and clearly this community has been
isolated, has a very interesting history, has very strong
community ties within itself which other groups don't
seem to have. Now there are some white groups that one
could study, I suppose. I don't know what _____-PA
LUM 127A 10
I: But basically you found it easy to study the Lumbees
in Robeson County because there are definite racial
boundaries?
B: It wasn't easy, but I think it would be easier because
the community is enclosed. It encloses itself and it
is enclosed by the social-racial boundaries. I don't
mean physical, I mean social.
I: Do you think that the white citizenry in Robeson County
would probably reveal as interesting a history as the
Lumbee?
B: No.
I: Why? What do you think you couldn't find?
B: Because they haven't been put upon in the same way.
I: We have some of the old traditional names that seemingly
the same families have held onto ____ ___ for hun-
dreds of years. So I just thought perhaps if they were
studied as the Lumbees have been that...
B: Well, that would be a good thing to do that, too.
I: ...you might find similar findings. And what you said,
now, that you found it fairly simple...
B: No. I said it wasn't easy.
I: It wasn't easy. Well, did you ever find yourself mis-
taking a person you interpreted from his physical features
as being Lumbee and he was not Lumbee once you got acquainted
LUM 127A 11
and talked with him?
B: Well, you quickly learn you can't tell anything by
looking at someone.
I: Bow could you...how could a new person coming in to
the area be sure he had a Lumbee?
B: Well, there's a whole...there's a section in my disser-
tation about that whole problem. There's several ways
in which Indians identify one another, either by knowing
the person or listening for the last name or
I: What are some of the last names you refer to? The last
names, can you recall any of those names? I'm sure
Locklear is one you will mention.
B: Indians say that the distinctive last names are things
like Locklear and Oxendine, Lowry in this area.
I: These are some of the names that...
- B: Braboy.
I: ...you might...if a person is new, if they are Locklear
they can feel pretty assured that this person is Lumbee.
I wanted to talk some about your involvement or your being
aware of the political scene in 1968. We have had many
Indian candidates throughout our history but we've had few
successes on the part o Indian candidates, and I just
LUM 127A 12
wonder why. Are you aware of any of the statistics or
the figures or just general statements about Indian par-
ticipation in the political arena in '68 or even before
you came? Are you aware of how involved Indian people
were politically?
B: Well, that, as I said, that subject was my husband's
study, and I know a little but not very much. So I
certainly couldn't give you statistics, and even my over-
all impressions at this point are fairly faint. I'd have
to go back w e
I: Was it during this time that I think probably the first
efforts for a registration drive was conducted. Are you
aware of a registration that was going on?
B: Well, there were several registration drives at the time.
I: And this is one unique thing, I think, that even though
there were certain laws that were appealed and we, just
to take account of our history, that the white power struc-
ture in Robeson County, rather than to fight Indian regis-
tration, they always interpreted it as being easier to
dilute the Indian vote rather than to set up obstacles
that would prevent our registration. It seems strange
that most of the registration efforts came from someone
outside or we were provoked from outside. Some outside
LUM 127A 13
help had to come in before we began to register and vote.
And as I have done a little reading, I've learned that
they always felt that, rather than to have federal regis-
trars come in to do the job and they were sure it would
be done, that they would go ahead and allow Indians to
register and vote. But then they systematically set up
the process in that our votes would be diluted so they
would not be effective at all. So in '68 is I guess when
some of my generation were just becoming politically
aware and maybe involved a little bit, and there were
some efforts made on the precinct level. Do you recall
any precinct meetings after the '68 election?
B: Well, after the '68 election I wasn't here.
I: You left after the '68 election. Well, maybe it was from
talking with your husband who was visiting in the area
recently also that this was maybe the first concentrated
effort to organize precinct levels. We have to first
educate the Indian and black people that the game really
starts on precinct level and I think this was the first
time any concerted effort was really given to try to or-
ganize minority groups on the precinct level to get them
participating in it. But it was in 1970 that we really
reaped maybe the benefits of these first efforts when we
LUM 127A 14
JWEM able to get black- and IndianSin precinct official
positions.
B: I don't know if the 1967 and '68 were the first efforts
at precinct organization. I rather think they weren't,
S, though they may have been the
first relatively successful ones. In other words...
I: I'm sure they probably were not the first, but because
of the registered voters...
B: The registration oA __gotten high enough
that they could make...
I: It was just not effective.
B: Yeah.
I: How did you interpret the involvement of women injjust
in the mainstream of life in the Lumbee community when
you were here doing your study? How much of a role or
in the eyes of is the Lumbee woman? In your mind's
eye. I
B: Well, it's very hard for me to tell, beeeu I didn't par-
r'
ticularly make an effort to find out what women were doing
and what their role was, unless it was obvious. There
were a few women who were rather prominent politically.
Probably the majority were not, though they certainly
had a hand behind the scenes. How much of a hand and
how they handled it I just don't know, and I'm concerned
LUM 127A 15-
to find out now V rC_& what women are doing. I'm
sorry I don't know cn 4Aa 4- e.-
I: You mentioned that your husband was basically interested
in the political phase of the Lumbee. What can you in
word maybe verbalize the area that you were most concerned
with?
B: Well, my whole dissertation was concerned to identify,
define and show how an identity was worked out here, so
that what I tried to do was say what is going on now and
try to get a little historical perspective on how it got to
be this way. And it's tied into a number of different areas:
how ISsaaes=ae living, the nature of the county, the racial
set-up, the educational system--it's tied into a lot of
things. T 4-r L- e 4o o '4-k rC\ {o^- -+L.SS,
I: Well, I'm concerned quite a bit to interview a lot of
Lumbee women, but do you see any transition in the, just
the...well, the identity, the self-image a woman had of
herself. Did you ever find it convenient to interview a
woman that you recall?
B: Well, I talked to women, but as I say, I didn't talk to
them about that. And I'm sorry I didn't, because I don't.
know what their self-images would have been. They might
be considerably different now, I just don't know.
LUM 127A 16
I: What about the vocation of Lumbee women? Did you have
any idea of any women who have attained high positions
vocationally?
B: Oh, yes. There were a lot of women who had high positions
and good jobs and quite good at what they were doing.
I: What do you mean? How high?
B: How they fit into the community and how...exactly what
their role was outside of their jobs, again, I don't
know.
I: What kind of positions would you categorize as good jobs
for a Lumbee woman?
B: People, women...prominent women t-k uLfl T 4 I
One of them is Helen SCV\te-rb CA t. o uo. C LoLuo,
and sits at the Indian desk in
the Office of Education, and she's always had a fairly
good role w Se U--
becomes quite a good position.
I: And I think she has been a key person in sort of blazing
the trail for others because we often refer to her when
we are trying to encourage a Lumbee woman to attain higher
ID
heights. I know since Helen we have AdoctororNorma Jean
Thompson, who has come back to our own school here as a
professor. So I think Helen did really blaze the way for
others of us to follow as we will. Do you see any difference
in the economic structure of the county? I mean, here you
LUM 127A 17
were dealing with tenant farmers who were absolute sub-
jects of their landlord. They really were subject. Their
daily routine had to be within the approval of their
landlord. Do you see any difference now just by visiting
a few days here with us? Have you detected anything dif-
ferent?
B: Well, there's more industry here. Exactly what impact
that's had on the people's lives, I just haven't analyzed
it. I'm still gathering materials e- *4.%oo..
I: Would you agree, then, that there is less day laborers on
the tenant farm and probably more factory workers in Robeson
County than in '68?
B: Well, I'm not sure about it, whether it's those people.
That is, those who were day laborers and at the very
bottom of the r r of workers. I'm not sure at
all that those are the people who are getting factory
jobs.
I: Well, for example, one factory we have employs about three
thousand employees. That is Converse. And seventy percent
of that employment is Indian. So it's a known fact that
our population growth is not changed that much. I think
it has changed some...
B: No, but...
I: It has decreased, so these people had to have been here
LUM 127A 18
doing something before.
B: But are these people, the people who are being hired
by this plant, are they schoolteachers who are now out
A
of jobs? Are they marginal farmers who were their own
men to begin with? Or are they really the day laborers
who tvse and who can't read and write, who had no
technical skills at all except for...in other words,
who is it that's getting these factory jobs, and what's
happening to the people who were the very poorest
? Are they still the very poorestO Is
that where the change is coming or is it...? I rather
czr _Wpe-r l&q^ 5
think it's Lhe othrae oune, I'm not sure.
I: Well, with thirty-seven percent of our total population
in Robeson County having an education of eighth grade and
below, I feel confident that a person must be required to
read and write to get a job in these factories, but I feel
that most of this employment is people that are school
drop-outs. I think many young Indian men have maybe perhaps
worked in other towns, have been drawn back home...
B: I think that probably true.
I: ...because of the factory or the industrial influx into
Robeson County. Because we have a surplus of cheap labor.
I still want to get you to talk some about women. Are you
aware tht circumstances have changed as far as certain
LUM 127A 19
appointed boards in the county? Through your husband's
work maybe you were a little bit aware of different
responsibilities that fell on the county commissioners
or the various boards in the county. For example, the
Board of Elections. Are you aware of the circumstances
that existthere during the time your husband was studying
here?
B: ,
I: And what kind of Board of Election do you recall having
there?
B: Well, it was all white.
I: It was all white, and now, for the first time in our
history, we have a tri-racial board. And the executive
secretary was also white, and the secretary now is an
Indian. Do you have any first-hand information? I mean
obvious experience, or personal experience, rather, where
minority groups tried to exercise their rights in the
democratic process, during the time you were here for
registration or for actually voting?
B: Well, yes. There were a number of cases where people
tried to register and had difficulties in doing so, either
because the registrars had only a few hours each day.
which were during the peak working hours that people
could come and register. Therefore if you couldn't get
LUM 127A 20
off work to go and register, you didn't register. One
registrar was reported to have kept a large and apparently
vicious dog in his front yard so that even though he had
hours, people were reluctant to go through his yard to
get to his front door and knock on it, whether or not
he would register them. Some of these complaints were
related to the 4TA-0 o Board of Elections, and some-
thing was done about them. Others apparently had little
effect.
I: Do you feel like that one reason maybe we didn't get
relief earlier is because Indians and blacks just didn't
know the procedure to file a grievance? If we saw some-
thing going on, we just were unaware as to how to do it.
B: That's part of it, but the other part was even...there
were cases when people were very well aware of what the
laws were and what procedures k& ___follow, and
they were prohibited from it.
I: Well, and sometimes, too, I think some of these rules or
even the laws were set up in such a way that they could
not be...they were not really racist in fact but in the
practical application they were racist, because I think
this is one way the power structure in Robeson County
has maintained its control. Because they have had ut -Aj7,
LUM 127A 21
racism that they felt sure would be within the approval
of national and state government as far as the written
law. For example,Aour Board of Education is elected.
We have now eleven seats. but heretofore has been seven,
and these are staggering terms. So I eel that had these
terms all become vacant at the same time and had seven
candidates among the whites running, this would have
diluted the white strength and maybe we could have had
our two Indians in there. But when they set up rules
that you must vote for four and we have two Indians
"running and they have four whites, then we've got to
vote for two of theirs and therefore cancel out our
two Indians. So I think even though sometimes they
did have laws, they have guarded these so highly that
it has taken us a while for us to get our hands on them
and begin to study these laws and challenge some of these
systems. And something else, you were mentioning the
barriers that a registrar could personally set up. Out
of seventy-eight precinct judges and precinct officials,
c^t/or+o '10-
I think something like twenty 6ie fms- -ese 3y were
Indian and black and now there are sixty-eight out of IP.-
seventy-one. And for the first time also in the history
of the county, our Board of Elections are practicing the
LUM 127A 22
procedure that if a precinct reflects a certain ethnic
group that that predominant ethnic group have that kind
of representation on the precinct, on the precinct
official board. So I think that if you were to come
back and just make a comparison, you might find,I want
to think,positive changes in Robeson County. But I
think the overall picture, er, it's just a transition.
It's not that much improvement. It's just that things
change from one phase to another. Like I often say,
we've come from the cotton field/ to the assembly line,
But where has the power been all the time? And where
is the power right now? Who really gets the benefit
out of our working on the assembly line? Out of the
908 professional jobs in the county, less than four
percent of these are held by Indians. And even though
our industry employs so many, they just refuse to put
Indians in positions that they can be promoted or climb.
They'll put an Indian here and one there, and this is what
I often get from talking to Indians that, well, my brother
is the supervisor, he's doing quite well. But they don't
realize that he's one out of hundreds. And this is the
kind of educational process I think we're going through,
but as far as Robeson County changing that much, do you
LUM 127A Z2- --
see a whole lot of improvement in the whole picture,
or do you agree that maybe it's just a transition or
a change that...it's just a natural change?
B: OkIL r\o L e work very hard for tbae changes
V --e occur' and people still have to keep working.
I mean, you an't...there have been, I think, re gains
in certain areas made. But it's a situationhwhich you
just have to keep on trying, keep on at it, because it
OX So onVO as VrK. '(f!a p c-.
soaragw stop if
I: Well, as far as Indian identity, I'm sure you're well
aware that even nationally for the past year, quite much
focus has been placed on Indians.. Do you see that there
is more pride in Robeson County in being Indian than when
you were here in '68 or prior to '68? Is just the average
Lumbee, is he more willing to admit that he's Indian?
Because it was not to our advantage necessarily to be
L '-*3 e4frc.r" T':
Indian. So, -de-you expect we were...we're more...
B: __ ; Ti it's probably also the case with a great many
other groups across the United States. I mean, it's no
accident that ethnics all over the world or all over the
country are now standing up and saying, "I'm glad to be
Italian-American," "I'm glad to be Indian," "I'm glad to
be black." It's all kind of coming at once and people &dn
LUM 127A 23
able to bring out that secret pride which they held
within themselves, and bring it out openly. A4 on oou-
I: What do you think this means to the Indian community
as far as carry-over to other facets of our lives. If
I'm now proud to be Indian and this was a handicap before--
I wouldn't apply for a job because I was Indian. I felt
like I wouldn't get it anyway. How do you think this
will affect the total being of a Lumbee now?
B: Well, I don't know. I think there's a lot of pride in
community and a lot...perhaps more interest and knowledge
about what going on in the community now. Probably related
to that -.-k bJ Lrac- 4 \dUrr
)Q
I: Do you think that it would be easier for an Indian can-
didate to plan a campaign and 6X get Indian support than
five or six years ago?
B: Well...
I: Because of this Indian identity?
B: Well, +-de4t...I don't know. I in it depend
on who...
I: Well, just from a, maybe a general psychological effect
maybe I'm hoping that this Indian pride or Indian awareness
or identity has had on my people. I just want to think
LUM 127A 24
that this would be one more common bond that maybe
would just tie us that much closer together.
B: Uh, yes. I think it does have 4V-a- -ffec-
I: Karen, I'm interested to know during your period of study
here, you mentioned earlier that you tried to talk with
blacks, Lumbees and whites. And I wonder what kind of
image did you finalize or did you interpret that the
whites in Robeson County have toward Indians? Where
on the social ladder did they see the Lumbee?
B: Well, what I tried to find out was first of all what Indian
people say about themselves, how they act toward each
other, how they relate to one another, and how they view
whites and blacks. Then I tried to look at whites and
see how they viewed Indians and interacted with Indians.
SThen I tried to see how blacks viewed Indians eaA V-rcr
"-'________ -t so that you get
the whole county encompassed in this way. Each of these
communities isn't just a mon raeee. It's very complex
and there's lots of factions in it, so when I talk about
whites it won't include them all. Some feel this way
and some don't, but probably the majority...certainly
the majority probably rank whites at the top of some
LUM 127A 25--
kind of scale and Indians in the middle
and blacks at the bottom. That appears also to be the
way the socio-economic situation Blacks are
probably the poorest group in the county, though not
all blacks are poor. Indians are somewhere in the middle
though many Indians are better off than poor whites.
And the richest people in the county will be whites
though as I said, there are poor and rich in each of
these groups. But nobody is as rich as the richest
whites.
I: Would you say that there are a much higher percentage
of whites in the top categories, of course...
B: Sure.
I: ... and Indians, and then blacks would follow?
B: Yes.
I: That way.. you see that Indians epe"eotAposition...or,
in talking to them do they categorize whites up there
and Indians in the middle and blacks at the bottom?
B: Well, if you're talking about, as I say, socio-economic
kind of position, sure. Because they know that's the
way it really is. But if you say to an Indian, "Do you
think that white man's better than you?" he'll--if he
doesn't hit you--he'll say, "Of course not. I'm as good
LUM 127A 26
as anybody else."
I: But then, I think we have been molded in the frame of
thinking that in any area that whites are a little bit
superior because if we are competing scholastically,
whatever area...
B: See, this is the socio-economic aspect of it. I mean,
PreA b
if you say to somebody, ite better educated than
PA Indian" yes. On the whole, they get more education,
more years of education than Indians do. And I think
everybody recognizes that. But in terms ofo say ,"Do
you want to be white, and do you think that's better to
be than Indian," no.
I: They won't admit it. But at one time do you feel that
they really felt like it would have been better to have
been white, born white?
B: Uh-uh, nobody that I--that is, in '67-'68, I never ran
into people who felt that it was better to be white.
I: Well, the reason...
B: It's nicer in terms of living circumstances and having
enough to eat and things of that sort, but people did
not want to act white. They didn't want to act like
whites do. They didn't think whites acted very nicely
toward them and they certainly didn't want to turn into
LUM 127A 27
the kind of people who treated them [
I: Well, probably, in Robeson County, you would have had
a difficult time finding a person who would have ad-
mitted he wanted to be white. But we're very much
aware of many Indians who went away because of their
Caucasian features, and they were able to fit into another
kfl Vy\act
society as white. We've even had some go back to those
places and have birth certificates of their children
changed to Indian now that they are proud to be Indian.
So I think that as far as the category and the level on
the scale that whites place Indians, we have pretty
much accepted that, too. Do you have any idea as to
whether this tradition is going to continue like this
as far as as racial...on racial lines, or do you see
any changes that we will begin to have more black and
Indian in that top level, or shall we anticipate a
continuation of racial class?
B: Well...
I: Do you have any basis to...?
B: Race isn't na disappear overnight _. On the
other hand, I think it's possible that people will be
able to work out some kind of mutual living together
without having to say, "I'll become white," or "I'll
LUM 127A 28
become black," or "I'll become Indian." There will
be perhaps some way worked out where you can be Indian
and feel good about it and be black and feel good about
it and be white and feel good about it, and yet work
together to all come out better. \a i_ _li
picture cavzL 80ro' uj Vaean overm- j y vrA^.
I: Is this more of a social class trend? I mean, people
are getting into a certain social class and then those
who are in a lower social class, be they white, Indian
or black, they will now be in the categories as Indian
and black are now.
B: Well, I think both things butneither one e4 6kem OJre
S w .' One is something that's class and it's not .wIty,
to be poor whatever your race is. And the other is race.
And both of these things are going to exist for a long
time oc CSC -J T e rowen-Cm auq o4 rcvtae oaS SeaL
and I don't think one is g9 replace the other entirely,
and it's not clear which is the more vicious kind of
categorization.
I: You came to Robeson County right after the Civil Rights
Act of '64, a couple of years thereafter. What kind of
experience do you recall as far as ____ \ civil rights
K.
LUM 127A 29
in Robeson County? If you can recall, probably when
you came here you still saw three rest rooms. Did
you ever see...?
B: No, +0 that was gone by the time I came here.
I: Well, prior to the Civil Rights Act, in Robeson County
where we had just black and white in most areas in
the country, we had white Indians, and black. And
we had three drinking fountains&retail stores. And I
just wonder how much of this had really disappeared
maybe by the time you came to Robeson County.
B: Most of that kind of overt Se9rCe was gone. The movie
theaters C 45i -Wxi jc usye ajt-v i wV c aer
't^eo v They certainly weren't
segregated and restaurants were not supposed
to be segregated, but in fact they managed to maintain
themselves. There were certain restaurants that integrated,
others that stayed clearly white. Some were obviously
black because A.kti_ r and the white
restaurants maintained their way qg 1 __ simply
br making it unpleasant to go there if you were black
or Indian.
I: Don't you think that this separate racism was easily
maintained like you say because whites just refused to
LUM 127A 30
go to certain establishments and because Indians had
for so long been refused services in certain establish-
ments they didn't go even though now they had the right
to do so. So I think it was maintained much longer than
maybe some of the larger cities where we had people who
were asserting their rights. How about in the retail
stores? Do you recall having seen a balance tri-racially
as far as your clerks? Can you recall?
B: No, the earliest...as I recall, the earliest merchants
4idnlt have black, certainly black help, I'm not sure
about Indian jre e eS L, Sres l- ero-m
____d theAblacks ran a boy-
cott over -ae'^-- -'..... im got some positions
there. When I was here before, there were no Indians
at all working for osAzey NJ'heo dSo.t. no
Indians o- 'lcy -,Ls oAr So^\ern ^o.t; Jt, .
I: Do you agree that perhaps blacks have been used in
Robeson County for integration purposes and Indians
have been by-passed? You know, have you been made
aware of figures to verify this fact, that sometimes
even over an Indian blacks have been hired?
LUM 127A 31
B: _
I: Well, we have. I just wondered if you were like...
well, at Social Services where we have seventy-one
employees, fifty of those are white and there are--
if I can get my math right, if I remember correctly--
twelve are black and nine...or maybe it's fourteen are
black and the remainder is Indian. But so often I
have had that interpreted as being that the Indians
seem to bea threat to the power structure because
we had educational facilities here before the blacks
did, and we seem to be more of a threat to the white
power structure than blacks and so blacks were really
sought out before Indians were. They tried to form
a co-operative, not a coalition, just co-operate with
blacks more than Indians because Indians offered a
greater threat. Do you agree that there was a greater
threat, or do you see us in the same basic category as
the minority groups?
B: Well, when you tell me that story my first reaction to
that is none of those things, but rather that if Indians
get upset about the fact that more blacks have been
hired thi Indians, that has the effect of plli blacks
and IndianSapart which is all to the whites' good.
LUM 127A 32
I: Right. This is...
B: S_; 1 1
I: This is another basic maneuver that has been successfully
used throughout our history. Are there any other areas
that you found interesting that you might like to just
share in an oral history of the Indians that we could
mention at this time? Is there anything else as far
as...? Well, I mean, what about the churches among
the Lumbees? Did you find that our services are any
different from white Protestant churches that you may
have attended elsewhere?
B: As I say, only in style. That's...
I: You mean in another community if I go to a little Baptist
church, I might find the same general procedure? Whereas
we might...do they actually have these emotional meetings
that we sometimes get involved in in Indian churches?
B: Whites? Oh, yes. They have them.
I: Well, maybe it's because I haven't been exposed to that
many............................................ ...... ..
that maybe I was not aware of the actual kind of service
that one might experience if he attended a little white
LUM 127A 33
community church. I just haven't been exposed to that
many white churches away, well, even in Robeson County.
And before our tape ran out on the other side, we had
talked a little bit about the educational transition,
or what has happened in the educational field that you
4ro 1-n
might be able to talk about some- o your observationS,
comparing the time you were here before '68 and maybe
40
just from looking and talking wiah people for the last
two weeks.
B: Well, I think people are more concerned about and
interested in education _, -ar. e wer e-. Ifrc '
I: Did you ever hear of Indian parents attending a Board
of Education meeting when you were here before?
B: I know that some people did attend them, but not much.
I: You didn't hear...it wasn't enough that it would make
the newspaper.
B: No.
I: Where we have nineteen or twenty parents go down for a
Board of Education meeting, this kind of thing# was not...
B: No.
I: Well, this is happening now, I'm very happy to say. What
about Indian teachers? I'm a teacher myself, and probably
LUM 127A 34
because the only school that was available to me
happened to produce teachers. And most of us have
become teachers, but do you think that finally we're
realizing that we can attain higher goals and we're
beginning to accept the challenge and feel sure we
do have the ability and confidence in ourselves to
attain higher degrees?
B: Certainly more people are going on in school and getting
higher degrees _,, There's also more money
available for helping_.4,,4 ,, Schools all over the
country are aware of the need for this kind of thing.
I: Do you think that one Indian group or tribe communicating
with others has had anything to do with this, perhaps?
Because like you say, you found very little printed
about Lumbees, but I think now we're beginning to com-
municate nationally with other Indian groups. And
probably this has allowed us to get more financial
assistance.
B' Yes.
I: Well, Karen, I certainly appreciate your talking with
me. If you have any other area, I'll be glad to talk,
but if not, we'll just conclude this hour. I want you
once again give me your complete mailing address and I'm
LUM 127A 35
sure probably you will receive a letter to ask your
permission to use this tape for research and for scholarly
purposes only, but just once again give me your mailing
address.
B: 124 West 79th Street, Apartment 14D, New York, N. Y.,
10024.
I: Thank you again, Miss Karen Blu.
Just a comments. This is Brenda Brooks
requesting that a transcribed copy of this interview
aBrenda Brooks with Karen Blu be mailed to Karen at
the address given in the tape. Also, Karen has
material that hopefully will be published by this
time next year that the Oral History will possibly
be interested in securing. Also, Karen wishes to
know how she may receive copies of interviews that
have been done in Robeson County as a part of your
Southeastern Oral Indian History.
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