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Title: Interview with Adolph Dial (November 30, 1972)
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 Material Information
Title: Interview with Adolph Dial (November 30, 1972)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: November 30, 1972
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00007113
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 126

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
        Page 1
        Page 2
        Page 3
        Page 4
        Page 5
        Page 6
        Page 7
        Page 8
        Page 9
        Page 10
        Page 11
        Page 12
        Page 13
        Page 14
        Page 15
        Page 16
        Page 17
        Page 18
        Page 19
        Page 20
        Page 21
        Page 22
        Page 23
        Page 24
        Page 25
        Page 26
Full Text



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This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH PIAL

RDf01S$AWK .Q1&ss

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL

DATE: NOVEMBER 30, 1972

TAPE: ONE

SIDE: ONE

TRAN: PDS

PAGE: ONE








S: Right, right, get right at it. I mean because I would like

to answer, it's much easier for me to answer questions.

I: Then go right ahead, and we'll take a little break. Let's

say, you know;itake-ten minutes. And when the men come back

in with questions.

S: All right.

Now I've almost forgotten where we are, but I'll, I'll...remind

me if I start to

I: I'd like to say, you mentioned, you mentioned

Andrew Jackson who said, "Let's enforce the law.T And

another part

S: Who's that?

I: I was in the middle of the sentence and didn't finish it.
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH D018

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





I: There's a denial and I didn't, I didn't get...

S: Well I'll go back and review it because, if you people have

not read Wooster vs. Georgia, I urge you to do so. I certain-

ly urge you to do so. And read every bit of it. It is a

magnificent piece of literature. If you don't have the cita-

tion, I think I can remember it, it's 31 United States,

well you get volumn 31 United States Supreme Court Report.

How many lawyers are here? And sit down and read it. You'll

find one, a full review in Wooster v. Georgia about the history

of the American Indian people. I wish you'd read it. I was

astounded as a young guy, I'm an old man now, when I first

began reading it, because I had never been told the magnif-

icence of the Indian culture. Their, their, he refers to the

immemorial natural rights and title of the Indian people. He

refers to the fact in his magnificent decision. I'm putting

a little of this on the record. But the magnificence of the

Indian people. And I love the way he went on to describe the

things that the colonists who had decided to rebell, and when

I hear some of my conservative friends talk about, well we see



2
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH 01AL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...all these uprisings, they seem to have forgotten just

exactly what we did with Great Britain. In any event, the

Chief Justice Marshall reviewed this fact, and said we must

realize that when the declaration of independence was signed,

that the colonists were surrounded, and indeed interspersed

with independent nations of Indians composed of Fierce war-

riors. Strikingly independent, who were willing and able and

capable at that time of fighting for their independence. And

as a lawyer, I will tell you there was a bargain struck at

that time. There was a bargain struck by the United States

of America with the Indian people. And that bargain was to

guarantee to them their internal self-government. And that

is an inherent power. The Indians have that inherent power

that rises above any-law that this nation could pass. You

seem perplexed. I saw a worry on your face, I hope I'm not



I: No, no just go ahead, we'll discuss this later.

S: Well what I'm trying to say is that the inherent power of the

American Indian for self-government is vested in him and in




3
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DI)-

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...his descendents, and relating back antecedent to the

quote "period of discovery." It is a tremendous heritage

that the American Indian has that's being daily overlooked.

But they have this power, this transcendent power of in-

ternal self-government that we the non-Indians, the quote,

"dominant society," end of quote, simply do not understand,

and totally ignore. And this is a vast tragedy because the

non-Indian community not realizing what it is doing in the

destruction of this inherent natural sovereignty of the

American Indian, is destroying the only real characteristic

of government that would be totally, quote, "American,"

That is when the tribes, the nations of the Indians were

first encountered by the Europeans who landed here, they

encountered going concerns. The going concerns of the

Cherokees and Choctaws and Chikasaws, and I'm going to say

the Lumbees, because I'm not quite sure of their history

after today. But I am sure that they did have very well

formalized governments, and very satisfactory-governments,

and the real test of their government is does it serve the

circumstances of existence at the time. And most assuredly,

the American Indians did have that kind and type of

4
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH tL-

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...government. And it was an effective kind and type of

government in the environment in which they were living. Now

the fact that times have changed drastically doesn't mean

that the American Indian, your Lumbees and the others, do not

have this inherent power of self-government that transcends

the laws of the state of New Mexico, of North Carolina, and

of the federal government. And it behooves all of us to say

yes for their own internal self-government that the American

Indians are guaranteed their rights to proceed with their

internal self-government, and to manage their lives internally

as they choose to do so. And I hope that you students will

bear that in mind when you consider your contemporaneous

problems of the American Indian, that he has the right, the

tribes, the nations of Indians in this country have these in-

herent natural rights to govern themselves independently,

independently of the states and the federal government. Now

this isn't some kind of a dream, this is what the law actually

says today. But it is law that is being ignored basically by

the bureaucracy of the federal government, which has con-

sistently, and today, is disregarding or supressing the very


5
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...essence of the independence of the Indians and his

sovereignty. And if I may revert again because I'm now on the

record, I want it very clear what I'm saying. I want the re-

cord to show what I am saying; that basically and fundament-

ally, the Indian people are being clanned out of existence.

Their very existence is imperil&d-and jeopardized by the very

concepts which I alluded to when I began my remarks. Namely,

the concepts of the sixteenth century. That if you were not

a Christian, if you were an infidel, you were not entitled to

the dignity and the recognition of the then law. And it's my

view, and I've expressed it many many times into the record

and elsewhere, that the genises of the parent of bigotry of

many of the Americans in this country today, stems right back

to the ancient times where they said, "Well if he's not a

Christian Prince, then the Indians do not have the right to

the international law that existed at that time. And that is

going forward today, and it doesn't matter what kind of a

United States of America that you go to, whether you go to my

home state of Montana, or if you go to the state where I lived




6
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...for some years in Colorado, if you go to California,

Arizona, New Mexico, you'll find a disregard, a fundamental

disregard of the ancient immemorial, and in my view, vastly

dignified characteristic of the internal power of government

of the American Indian people. That is not being un-American,

to say that we have nations within this nation, we are saying,

I repeat to you today, that if we ignore these ancient gov-

ernmental functions of the Pueblos I revert to them

again because they are so unique. If we ignore the fact that

here is a form of government that has survived the test of

the centuries, and yet we pass a 1968 quote "Civil Rights Act"

that is striking at the very heart of the Pueblo government,

and we are superimposing a white man's concept, which are be-

ing seized upon to undercut the governmental aspects of the

Pueblo people. And we're seeing this ancient ancient his,

this ancient government being erroded away one, by the poli-

tical forces that surround them, but even more demeaning the

outright seizure of their properties which are guaranteed to

them under the Constitution of the United States. And you ask

me, by whom are those rights being seized, and I'll tell you


7
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...that they are being seized by the Secretary of the Interior

as of today. And that seizure has transpired by reason of what

is referred to as a quote, "conflict of interest" within the

federal government. And once again, this is not your leaders

speaking, this is Richard Nixon speaking. In his message to

Congress on July 8, 1960, 1970, and I take a little pride

that, for some of the language that we used in what was referred

to as the Proxmire Papers, if you want the reference for

those, I'll give them to you. And here is what the President

of the United States of America declared, and I hope that you

people studying contemporary Indian problems realize this. He

says, "Under the Constitution, the American Government is the

trustee, and as trustee for the American Indian, the federal

government has an absolute obligation to protect the rights

and the interests of the American Indian without, quote,

"reservations," and the United States of America by the

President himself is charged with the obligation of performing

the responsibilities forlathA-American Indians to the highest

degree of care skill and abilities." Now I respectfully

submit to you people that under the circumstances of the

Lumbee Indians to whom I'm directing some comments this

8
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...evening, that the Lumbee Indians are entitled under the

Constitution of the United States if they so choose, to be

protected in their rights and their interests, in their land,

in their political internal self-government if they desire it.

By the federal government, that protection should be carried

out by the United States Department of Interior, by the United

States Department of Justice, and all the facets of the federal

government. It should be carried out with the highest degree

of care, skill and ability. But I will bet you right here this

evening that there are very few Lumbee Indians that ever look

to the federal government for that kind of performance. And

I see that my 15 minutes are up professor. Do you want to have

some conversations about this?

I: Let see, I believe we can have some...do you want to break

before returning for questions Glen?

S: O.k.

I: Let's take a break fellows.

S: It's seven-thirty right now, it's been an hour.





9
















NUMBER LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





Q: How about speaking about possibly the recent situation of

the B.I.A. Bill, how it evolved, or if you know the consequen-

ces, and the possible ramifications in the government that

will come from it?

S: Yes, I'll speak on that. I'll probably get fired, but it won't

be the first time. I truly believe that the situation that has

developed within the federal government as effected by the

occupation, that I detest, I want it very clear. I believe

that that occupation and the seizure of the building, and in

my view the violation of the law, was a logical sequitir of

the disregard of the basic Indian rights to which I have

alluded to this evening. I believe that basically the young

American Indians, and I knew some of them, feel that there is

no remedy or recourse without violence. Now that is tragic.

You may want a little aside if I may. My secretary is 73

years old. We stayed in the building, stayed in the building

all day Thursday, and went back and stayed all day Friday

after the occupation. Tried to get out at six-thirty in the

evening, and the doors were all blocked by the Indians on the




10















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...inside, and the place was surrounded by the D.C. and the

Park Service cops on the outside. And a man who has been at-

tacked from many sides named Vernon Bellecourt, said, "Well

Bill I didn't know you were in the building." And I said,

"Well I would like to get out if it's all the same to you."

Well as a matter of fact, he said, "Well we've got one way

to get you out." So we had to go out through a basement win-

dow, up through and I had to go

back and get my 73 year old secretary. And it was something

to see, a rather elderly woman climbing out of the back win-

dow of a cafeteria getting out. But at that time, and I re-

peat, the destruction of property is entirely against my own

personal approach to government. Those people were exasperated

in my view. Now I'm not speaking, as I started out, I'm not

speaking for the Department of Interior, or the Bureau of

Indian Affairs, or the Department of Justice, or anybody else.

I'm speaking as a guy who was there. I think it was tragically

unfortunate. I have in that building today, and I have only

been into my office once since the takeover, I have material

I think is highly important to the Indian people that I've

accumulated over a period of 30 years of litigating and

11

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...representing Indian people. Now whether that stuff has

been destroyed or not, I don't know.

Q: It's not in your office now?

S: I haven't had a chance to make a review. I don't believe the

Indian people did it. I'm greatly worried about... I'm on

the record am I not?

I: I think you ought to cut out some of this.

S: No no! No, no let it, let her go for a second, let her go.

I'm not just sure what happened to some of my material, I'll

tell you that. One day I will be sure, and I'll raise silly

hell about it, you can be certain of that. Is that o.k.?

Q: Well in other words it could be possible that federal agents

could have come into the building after the Indians were

there?

S: Now that's what you say, I don't know. But I know that they

had tours through that building, and I'm greatly worried about

what happened to my own personal material.

Q: They had what?

S: Tours! It was, immediately after the takeover why they would

say, "Gentlemen would you like to go through and see the building?"


12

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: And they had conducted tours. A friend of mine, Peter McDonald,

who is the chairman of the Navajoes said, "It's just exactly

like seeing the Grand Canyon. You go through and they said

here's this, and here's this, and here's this, and here's

this. Well, it was-sort of like this. I, I'm, we'll let me

say this to you. I don't know what happened, see, I don't

know.

Q: Mr. who then makes these attempts that

the Indians laugh at? Now the B.I.A. today, or when you left

there, that I walked up and got in there like I always

Now what happened, government officials

been tramping through or looking over...?

S: That's right, and then there've been groups taken through,

regular tours, but the nuance of the thing is that you could

see what you shouldn't see.

Q: Well what kind of groups are they?

S: Well, groups of secretaries, and groups of the hierarchy, the

press were trouped through there to see it. I'm going to say

this into the record, now I make no bones about this. When

the Indians evacuated on Wednesday, I could have been at work


13
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...at seven-thirty Thursday morning. There is no question

that my office wasn't operable. It was operable.

Q: What about the estimated damages?

S: Now, I don't know enough about it. I don't know enough about

it.

Q: I don't know how they're saying this, but I have an idea

they're higher?

S: If I were to talk two million bucks that they're talking about,

I'd go and buy a new building.

Q: It was a pretty dirty building.

S: It wasn't a good building to begin with.

Q: Pardon me?

S: It wasn't a good building to begin...

Q: No, no, no I was interested in

S: No, no I just I just hope everyone understands what I'm say-

ing. Go ahead.

Q: You know...

S: Let me finish my sentence. I want everyone to understand what

I'm saying. I truly believe, that is one of the most unfor-

tunate examples of bad government that I ever personally wit-

nessed, or anyone ever else personally witnessed. I don't care

14
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: Who hears that. Go ahead.

Q: I think it's a pretty dismal picture what happened

because some of the things that have been

done in position ?

S: There's not very much being done.

Q: I was thinking, I read a news article today about it.

?

S: Yes, I spent my life on that I started working on during

late 1944. And we've worked on that continuously since that

date on behalf of the Pyramid Lake tribes, the Northern

Pyutes. What did you read today?

Q: Well the uh, I think it was a federal judge...

S: Judge guissel in the District of Columbia ruled that the

quantity of water being permitted to go in the Pyramid Lake,

was abusive.- disgression in effect by the Secretary of the

Interior, and that none of the water should go in there. I'll

tell you about my complaint about that, and my complaint about

the Supreme Court Case. It is the federal government that is

asserting that the federal government owns those rights to

the use of the water, and I deny that. I didn't mention the

Winter's Doctrine. The Winter's Doctrine is an extremely

15
















NUMBER: LUM 188A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...impottanit principle of law in the western United States.

And pursuant to that doctrine, if you people want to write

down a case that you should read, it is United States vs.

Winters, it appears in 207 U.S. pg. 546. And there was an-

nounced by the Supreme Court of the United States of America,

that the Indians had title to the rights of the use of water

in quantities sufficient for their present and future water

requirements. Now the federal government in the Pyramid Lake

cases is saying the federal government owns those rights, and

not the Indians. And I deny that's true, I say the Indians

own the rights, and those rights are to be guaranteed by the

trust officer of the United States of America. So I'm in

dispute with the Justice Department in regard to their po-

sition presently before the Supreme Court, and dispute the

position taken in the District Court of Columbia by Judge

Guissel, who is in effect saying, "Well the United States

owns these waters, but it should give some water for the

benefit of the Indian people. I hope you, there's a legal

nicety there that may, somebody may be missing, but it would

be like somebody coming along and saying, your uncle owns

the water but you're entitled to use some of it, follow?

16

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: This is why I disagree with Judge Guissells position, and I

disagree with the position of the Supreme Court. Incident-

ally, if you'd like to have me send your professor a copy of

our analysis-of this thing, remind me and I will. And it covers

the basic point in two ways, if you want that. I prepared it,

and we filed it with the Civil Rights Commission. So if you

want it, I'll get it for this class. Remind me later.

Q: O.k.

S: Go ahead.

Q: You want federal government approval of the

?

S: You want to speak louder, so that it will go in here?

Q: O.k. The federal government is quibbling over $2,000,000,

you know, the amount of the destruction of the B.I.A. prop-

erty; but I don't know if you can speak to this, but what

about the tremendous cutbacks in funds, federal funds going

into Indian projects, programs, Indian Scholarship Program.

What, you know, what justifications are used for that?




17

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: Well, I have to say this. I don't know about tremendous

cutbacks. There has never been enough money for the Indian

people, I'll tell you that. And I say that too much money is

spent on the bureaucracy. I'll tell you that. Now, what we

must look too, in my view, is a scaling down of the bureau-

cracy, and the application of those funds to the Indian

people. This has been a constant struggle on our part. We

find the fact, in a large bureaucracy, I don't know how many

guys work for the Department of Interior that are supposed

to be working for the Indians. I don't know how many people

in the Department of Justice, it's fantastic, in comparison

with the number of Indian people. Now I don't know about the

cutbacks to which you alluded, I frankly don't, because there

have been some increases of funds for the Indian people. But

let me say this, the basic question I believe for Indian people,

is are you going to vie as an independent ethnic group, isn't

that what the issue is? Isn't that at least, there's all

whitey here, and that's how I see it. I think the issue is not

whether you become like your leaders, whether you remain like



18


















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...you are.

Q: ?

S: Of individual Indians? I think that the Indians, I think the

Indians have the inherent right of internal self-government,

that is being daily supressed. I think that the Indian tribes

in the nation have the right to rule themselves with, under

the Constitution of the United States of America, with the

protection from the federal government that I think is

essential. It's the greatest asset you have, to have the

greatest nation on earth your trustee in guaranteeing your

interests. And I see a bargain that was struck when they

wrote the Constitution, and you people are being deprived of

that bargain.

Q: What would be accomplished then through federal recognition

for the Lumbee Indians? What would they ?

S: Well now, you're asking me an extremely difficult question.

My own view as I said to the professor today, I believe it's

written into the Constitution of the United States of America,

I think the Lumbees are entitled as Indians. And I think

that's all you need. But I do believe that it would be a very

19

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: hiFO I 010L





S: ... ious aiM effective idea to have present legislation amend-

ed to say, that be it, the Lumbee tribe is a tribe recognized

by the federal government under the Constitution with all the

rights and benefits accruing to them under the trustee re-

lationship. Does that make sense?

Q: Um huh.

S: This is what I think should be done in effect.

Q: What was the statement you made just before the very last

question ?

S: Right, would you play that back, I'm almost forgetting what

I said..

Q: Maybe some of you remember.You know, the authority was made

when the Constitution was written, and that Indian people are

being denied.

S: Professor, I think that is correct. I think that a bargain

was struck for the very reasons I spoke to originally. As-

suming that the Indians of this part of the country decided

to go to war against the colonies, you can imagine what would

happen. But I think a bargain was struck. If we sit down and

read the history, and I urge you people to read the Federalists.


20
















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: -ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: I urge you to read their history in regards to the Articles

of Confederation. Madison wrote extensively about the in-

adequacy of the Articles of Confederation in regard to In-

dian people. I shouldn't say this now, but he wrote about

them. So they decided to have the states delegate their pow-

er to the federal government in regard to Indian people. And

this was the bargain that was struck. And the states delegated,

and the national government accepted the plenary, an exclusive

power in regard to Indian people. They didn't talk about re-

servations, they talked about the Indian people. And I think

that trust relationship exists. And I think that it is being

ignored. And I think that it is tragic. I truly think it is

tragic. I'm speaking as a lawyer, I'm not speaking about a

do-gooder, I'm not a do-gooder. I'm speaking as a guy who's

been out there and looked at it. And as a lawyer, I say to the

Indian people, assert yourselves, by all means. I don't, don't

but assert y-ourselves. I'm oppos-

ed to what happened up there, I really am. I think it's de-

sire. I think when they talk about $2,000,000 of damage, I




21

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...think I could get rich that way, I mean I can't believe

that $2,000,000 was done. I don't know, I'm not a guy that

can estimate it. But if you can look at a $50 damage, and it

jumps to 500, it's quite a thing you know. Anyhow, maybe there's

$2,000,000 in damage, I don't know. But I am saying to you

that that is a little tiny episode in the long long history

of the interference with Indian people. And I don't think it

would have transpired if the Indian people had been fairly

treated. I don't believe so. I believe that that, what I am

saying is correct. And I, if anyone wants to contradict me

on it, I'm simply going to say, I have been viewing the con-

duct, for example, of the Bureau of Reclamation in the western

United States. And I'm somewhat of an authority on that outfit.

I represented them for over 20 years as a lawyer in water li-

tigation. And I know what they've done to the Indian people.

I know that they intensly-circumvented the Winter's Doctrine

to get water for non-Indian people. Yes?

Q: You speak from a standpoint of somewhat an idealist, and an

exact legalist. The things you were talking about for Indian

people to do themselves, or to have done through the

22
















NUMBER: LUM --126A

SUBJECT: DANFORD DIAL

INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON





Q: ...government, or the government guaranteeing them.

S: Guaranteeing them is what I am saying.

Q: O.k. well take information being given or being made available

to Indian people, and right now there's little access to that

information.

S: Well, you're looking at a very very unwieldy, unwieldy situ-

ation. You're looking at a situation where in my view, a defac-

to plan of termination of Indian-people is going forward.

Against the law and against Presedent Nixon's own declaration.

I think you're looking at the termination of the federalization

of the Indian people. I think in the future you're going to be

forced away from their great heritage, unless actions are

taken. We, we're trying it professor you know,

ask them, and you know that we're working with the American

Indian Historical Society, trying to defend the Indian rights

from the San Juan River, and the Rio Grande, and the Colorado

we're trying to do these things. But boy, it's a lonely strug-

gle, I'm telling you that. It's lonely. And it's difficult be-

cause you're looking at a tremendous bureaucracy who wants to




23

















NUMBER: LUM -126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...take the Indian water to make, well, the special interests

rich from land, water, power. Forget the fact that we have a

guarantee to the Indian people. I'm not saying anything now

that I haven't repeatedly written.

Q: Wouldn't you think it would be better if the B.I.A. put to-

gether some information, half the trouble with our Indian people,



S: I'll tell you, I'm not trying to peddle my stuff, but we have

what we call the Proxmire Paper, I'll send you that if you

want it for this class.

Q: You can send a whole load&down to the agency known as L.R.D.A.

I'm sure they'll appreciate that. The people, I know a

thousand people would look at it.

S: We, as I say, these things we've written and they have been

published by Congress, and they have been published by the,

indeed, by the Department of Interior. Which will at least

give you a view as to the true characteristics under the

Constitution of the American Indian. And of course intoller-

able conflicts of interest are there depriving the Indians of



24

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...their heritage. And one of the great heritages, and I hope

you carry this away, the great heritage of the Indian people

is their right of internal self-government in these tribes.

It's the dignity of being an Indian. The dignity of being the

individual. And I don't like what I see. I have fought the

bureaucracy all of my life, and I'm going to continue fighting

it as long as I can be articulate. I don't worry a great deal

about the anger that I seem to raise once in awhile. I simply

am saying with honesty, you people that are taking the kind of

study, Contemporary Indian Problems, must look at the basic

problem. And the basic problem is the failure of the national

government properly to havesformeiLits:Constitutional rela-

tionship with you. This is the problem that the Indian Amer,

the American Indian has. It is the problem of the trustee, the

guy, the outfit that should be carrying out under the Consti-

tution, under our system, and there is no better system than

the checks and balances of the Executive, the Judiciary, and

the Congressional aspects, the Legislative aspects function-

ing together to carry out the trusteeship. It's breaking down



25

















NUMBER: LUM 126A

SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL

INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL





S: ...at the level at which I function. That is the active part

of government is breaking down, not the concepts, not the

Constitution, not the decisions, it is the Executive branch

that is consistently failing to perform. You're smiling, it's

true. You don't believe me huh?

Q: Well I just wonder who's the head ofi;the Executive branch.

S: Well it's not hard to, it's not hard to say, President Nixon

is in charge of the, of it.

Q: Right.

S: But he can't even reach through the bureaucracy. I'll bet you

he would say, "The guy is right." He would say, "How do I reach

through this impervious bureaucracy?"

Q: Well in other words, you're saying the bureaucracy is in control

of the appointed officials over it.

S: The bureaucracy seems to go on.

Q: I would like to you know, express my opinion on this, that you

know, first of all I think we've got to think in terms of all

of Washington being a bureaucratic government you know.

Q: The government within itself?

S: Pardon?


26





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