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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH PIAL
RDf01S$AWK .Q1&ss
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
DATE: NOVEMBER 30, 1972
TAPE: ONE
SIDE: ONE
TRAN: PDS
PAGE: ONE
S: Right, right, get right at it. I mean because I would like
to answer, it's much easier for me to answer questions.
I: Then go right ahead, and we'll take a little break. Let's
say, you know;itake-ten minutes. And when the men come back
in with questions.
S: All right.
Now I've almost forgotten where we are, but I'll, I'll...remind
me if I start to
I: I'd like to say, you mentioned, you mentioned
Andrew Jackson who said, "Let's enforce the law.T And
another part
S: Who's that?
I: I was in the middle of the sentence and didn't finish it.
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH D018
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
I: There's a denial and I didn't, I didn't get...
S: Well I'll go back and review it because, if you people have
not read Wooster vs. Georgia, I urge you to do so. I certain-
ly urge you to do so. And read every bit of it. It is a
magnificent piece of literature. If you don't have the cita-
tion, I think I can remember it, it's 31 United States,
well you get volumn 31 United States Supreme Court Report.
How many lawyers are here? And sit down and read it. You'll
find one, a full review in Wooster v. Georgia about the history
of the American Indian people. I wish you'd read it. I was
astounded as a young guy, I'm an old man now, when I first
began reading it, because I had never been told the magnif-
icence of the Indian culture. Their, their, he refers to the
immemorial natural rights and title of the Indian people. He
refers to the fact in his magnificent decision. I'm putting
a little of this on the record. But the magnificence of the
Indian people. And I love the way he went on to describe the
things that the colonists who had decided to rebell, and when
I hear some of my conservative friends talk about, well we see
2
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH 01AL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...all these uprisings, they seem to have forgotten just
exactly what we did with Great Britain. In any event, the
Chief Justice Marshall reviewed this fact, and said we must
realize that when the declaration of independence was signed,
that the colonists were surrounded, and indeed interspersed
with independent nations of Indians composed of Fierce war-
riors. Strikingly independent, who were willing and able and
capable at that time of fighting for their independence. And
as a lawyer, I will tell you there was a bargain struck at
that time. There was a bargain struck by the United States
of America with the Indian people. And that bargain was to
guarantee to them their internal self-government. And that
is an inherent power. The Indians have that inherent power
that rises above any-law that this nation could pass. You
seem perplexed. I saw a worry on your face, I hope I'm not
I: No, no just go ahead, we'll discuss this later.
S: Well what I'm trying to say is that the inherent power of the
American Indian for self-government is vested in him and in
3
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DI)-
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...his descendents, and relating back antecedent to the
quote "period of discovery." It is a tremendous heritage
that the American Indian has that's being daily overlooked.
But they have this power, this transcendent power of in-
ternal self-government that we the non-Indians, the quote,
"dominant society," end of quote, simply do not understand,
and totally ignore. And this is a vast tragedy because the
non-Indian community not realizing what it is doing in the
destruction of this inherent natural sovereignty of the
American Indian, is destroying the only real characteristic
of government that would be totally, quote, "American,"
That is when the tribes, the nations of the Indians were
first encountered by the Europeans who landed here, they
encountered going concerns. The going concerns of the
Cherokees and Choctaws and Chikasaws, and I'm going to say
the Lumbees, because I'm not quite sure of their history
after today. But I am sure that they did have very well
formalized governments, and very satisfactory-governments,
and the real test of their government is does it serve the
circumstances of existence at the time. And most assuredly,
the American Indians did have that kind and type of
4
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH tL-
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...government. And it was an effective kind and type of
government in the environment in which they were living. Now
the fact that times have changed drastically doesn't mean
that the American Indian, your Lumbees and the others, do not
have this inherent power of self-government that transcends
the laws of the state of New Mexico, of North Carolina, and
of the federal government. And it behooves all of us to say
yes for their own internal self-government that the American
Indians are guaranteed their rights to proceed with their
internal self-government, and to manage their lives internally
as they choose to do so. And I hope that you students will
bear that in mind when you consider your contemporaneous
problems of the American Indian, that he has the right, the
tribes, the nations of Indians in this country have these in-
herent natural rights to govern themselves independently,
independently of the states and the federal government. Now
this isn't some kind of a dream, this is what the law actually
says today. But it is law that is being ignored basically by
the bureaucracy of the federal government, which has con-
sistently, and today, is disregarding or supressing the very
5
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...essence of the independence of the Indians and his
sovereignty. And if I may revert again because I'm now on the
record, I want it very clear what I'm saying. I want the re-
cord to show what I am saying; that basically and fundament-
ally, the Indian people are being clanned out of existence.
Their very existence is imperil&d-and jeopardized by the very
concepts which I alluded to when I began my remarks. Namely,
the concepts of the sixteenth century. That if you were not
a Christian, if you were an infidel, you were not entitled to
the dignity and the recognition of the then law. And it's my
view, and I've expressed it many many times into the record
and elsewhere, that the genises of the parent of bigotry of
many of the Americans in this country today, stems right back
to the ancient times where they said, "Well if he's not a
Christian Prince, then the Indians do not have the right to
the international law that existed at that time. And that is
going forward today, and it doesn't matter what kind of a
United States of America that you go to, whether you go to my
home state of Montana, or if you go to the state where I lived
6
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...for some years in Colorado, if you go to California,
Arizona, New Mexico, you'll find a disregard, a fundamental
disregard of the ancient immemorial, and in my view, vastly
dignified characteristic of the internal power of government
of the American Indian people. That is not being un-American,
to say that we have nations within this nation, we are saying,
I repeat to you today, that if we ignore these ancient gov-
ernmental functions of the Pueblos I revert to them
again because they are so unique. If we ignore the fact that
here is a form of government that has survived the test of
the centuries, and yet we pass a 1968 quote "Civil Rights Act"
that is striking at the very heart of the Pueblo government,
and we are superimposing a white man's concept, which are be-
ing seized upon to undercut the governmental aspects of the
Pueblo people. And we're seeing this ancient ancient his,
this ancient government being erroded away one, by the poli-
tical forces that surround them, but even more demeaning the
outright seizure of their properties which are guaranteed to
them under the Constitution of the United States. And you ask
me, by whom are those rights being seized, and I'll tell you
7
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...that they are being seized by the Secretary of the Interior
as of today. And that seizure has transpired by reason of what
is referred to as a quote, "conflict of interest" within the
federal government. And once again, this is not your leaders
speaking, this is Richard Nixon speaking. In his message to
Congress on July 8, 1960, 1970, and I take a little pride
that, for some of the language that we used in what was referred
to as the Proxmire Papers, if you want the reference for
those, I'll give them to you. And here is what the President
of the United States of America declared, and I hope that you
people studying contemporary Indian problems realize this. He
says, "Under the Constitution, the American Government is the
trustee, and as trustee for the American Indian, the federal
government has an absolute obligation to protect the rights
and the interests of the American Indian without, quote,
"reservations," and the United States of America by the
President himself is charged with the obligation of performing
the responsibilities forlathA-American Indians to the highest
degree of care skill and abilities." Now I respectfully
submit to you people that under the circumstances of the
Lumbee Indians to whom I'm directing some comments this
8
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...evening, that the Lumbee Indians are entitled under the
Constitution of the United States if they so choose, to be
protected in their rights and their interests, in their land,
in their political internal self-government if they desire it.
By the federal government, that protection should be carried
out by the United States Department of Interior, by the United
States Department of Justice, and all the facets of the federal
government. It should be carried out with the highest degree
of care, skill and ability. But I will bet you right here this
evening that there are very few Lumbee Indians that ever look
to the federal government for that kind of performance. And
I see that my 15 minutes are up professor. Do you want to have
some conversations about this?
I: Let see, I believe we can have some...do you want to break
before returning for questions Glen?
S: O.k.
I: Let's take a break fellows.
S: It's seven-thirty right now, it's been an hour.
9
NUMBER LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
Q: How about speaking about possibly the recent situation of
the B.I.A. Bill, how it evolved, or if you know the consequen-
ces, and the possible ramifications in the government that
will come from it?
S: Yes, I'll speak on that. I'll probably get fired, but it won't
be the first time. I truly believe that the situation that has
developed within the federal government as effected by the
occupation, that I detest, I want it very clear. I believe
that that occupation and the seizure of the building, and in
my view the violation of the law, was a logical sequitir of
the disregard of the basic Indian rights to which I have
alluded to this evening. I believe that basically the young
American Indians, and I knew some of them, feel that there is
no remedy or recourse without violence. Now that is tragic.
You may want a little aside if I may. My secretary is 73
years old. We stayed in the building, stayed in the building
all day Thursday, and went back and stayed all day Friday
after the occupation. Tried to get out at six-thirty in the
evening, and the doors were all blocked by the Indians on the
10
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...inside, and the place was surrounded by the D.C. and the
Park Service cops on the outside. And a man who has been at-
tacked from many sides named Vernon Bellecourt, said, "Well
Bill I didn't know you were in the building." And I said,
"Well I would like to get out if it's all the same to you."
Well as a matter of fact, he said, "Well we've got one way
to get you out." So we had to go out through a basement win-
dow, up through and I had to go
back and get my 73 year old secretary. And it was something
to see, a rather elderly woman climbing out of the back win-
dow of a cafeteria getting out. But at that time, and I re-
peat, the destruction of property is entirely against my own
personal approach to government. Those people were exasperated
in my view. Now I'm not speaking, as I started out, I'm not
speaking for the Department of Interior, or the Bureau of
Indian Affairs, or the Department of Justice, or anybody else.
I'm speaking as a guy who was there. I think it was tragically
unfortunate. I have in that building today, and I have only
been into my office once since the takeover, I have material
I think is highly important to the Indian people that I've
accumulated over a period of 30 years of litigating and
11
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...representing Indian people. Now whether that stuff has
been destroyed or not, I don't know.
Q: It's not in your office now?
S: I haven't had a chance to make a review. I don't believe the
Indian people did it. I'm greatly worried about... I'm on
the record am I not?
I: I think you ought to cut out some of this.
S: No no! No, no let it, let her go for a second, let her go.
I'm not just sure what happened to some of my material, I'll
tell you that. One day I will be sure, and I'll raise silly
hell about it, you can be certain of that. Is that o.k.?
Q: Well in other words it could be possible that federal agents
could have come into the building after the Indians were
there?
S: Now that's what you say, I don't know. But I know that they
had tours through that building, and I'm greatly worried about
what happened to my own personal material.
Q: They had what?
S: Tours! It was, immediately after the takeover why they would
say, "Gentlemen would you like to go through and see the building?"
12
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: And they had conducted tours. A friend of mine, Peter McDonald,
who is the chairman of the Navajoes said, "It's just exactly
like seeing the Grand Canyon. You go through and they said
here's this, and here's this, and here's this, and here's
this. Well, it was-sort of like this. I, I'm, we'll let me
say this to you. I don't know what happened, see, I don't
know.
Q: Mr. who then makes these attempts that
the Indians laugh at? Now the B.I.A. today, or when you left
there, that I walked up and got in there like I always
Now what happened, government officials
been tramping through or looking over...?
S: That's right, and then there've been groups taken through,
regular tours, but the nuance of the thing is that you could
see what you shouldn't see.
Q: Well what kind of groups are they?
S: Well, groups of secretaries, and groups of the hierarchy, the
press were trouped through there to see it. I'm going to say
this into the record, now I make no bones about this. When
the Indians evacuated on Wednesday, I could have been at work
13
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...at seven-thirty Thursday morning. There is no question
that my office wasn't operable. It was operable.
Q: What about the estimated damages?
S: Now, I don't know enough about it. I don't know enough about
it.
Q: I don't know how they're saying this, but I have an idea
they're higher?
S: If I were to talk two million bucks that they're talking about,
I'd go and buy a new building.
Q: It was a pretty dirty building.
S: It wasn't a good building to begin with.
Q: Pardon me?
S: It wasn't a good building to begin...
Q: No, no, no I was interested in
S: No, no I just I just hope everyone understands what I'm say-
ing. Go ahead.
Q: You know...
S: Let me finish my sentence. I want everyone to understand what
I'm saying. I truly believe, that is one of the most unfor-
tunate examples of bad government that I ever personally wit-
nessed, or anyone ever else personally witnessed. I don't care
14
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: Who hears that. Go ahead.
Q: I think it's a pretty dismal picture what happened
because some of the things that have been
done in position ?
S: There's not very much being done.
Q: I was thinking, I read a news article today about it.
?
S: Yes, I spent my life on that I started working on during
late 1944. And we've worked on that continuously since that
date on behalf of the Pyramid Lake tribes, the Northern
Pyutes. What did you read today?
Q: Well the uh, I think it was a federal judge...
S: Judge guissel in the District of Columbia ruled that the
quantity of water being permitted to go in the Pyramid Lake,
was abusive.- disgression in effect by the Secretary of the
Interior, and that none of the water should go in there. I'll
tell you about my complaint about that, and my complaint about
the Supreme Court Case. It is the federal government that is
asserting that the federal government owns those rights to
the use of the water, and I deny that. I didn't mention the
Winter's Doctrine. The Winter's Doctrine is an extremely
15
NUMBER: LUM 188A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...impottanit principle of law in the western United States.
And pursuant to that doctrine, if you people want to write
down a case that you should read, it is United States vs.
Winters, it appears in 207 U.S. pg. 546. And there was an-
nounced by the Supreme Court of the United States of America,
that the Indians had title to the rights of the use of water
in quantities sufficient for their present and future water
requirements. Now the federal government in the Pyramid Lake
cases is saying the federal government owns those rights, and
not the Indians. And I deny that's true, I say the Indians
own the rights, and those rights are to be guaranteed by the
trust officer of the United States of America. So I'm in
dispute with the Justice Department in regard to their po-
sition presently before the Supreme Court, and dispute the
position taken in the District Court of Columbia by Judge
Guissel, who is in effect saying, "Well the United States
owns these waters, but it should give some water for the
benefit of the Indian people. I hope you, there's a legal
nicety there that may, somebody may be missing, but it would
be like somebody coming along and saying, your uncle owns
the water but you're entitled to use some of it, follow?
16
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: This is why I disagree with Judge Guissells position, and I
disagree with the position of the Supreme Court. Incident-
ally, if you'd like to have me send your professor a copy of
our analysis-of this thing, remind me and I will. And it covers
the basic point in two ways, if you want that. I prepared it,
and we filed it with the Civil Rights Commission. So if you
want it, I'll get it for this class. Remind me later.
Q: O.k.
S: Go ahead.
Q: You want federal government approval of the
?
S: You want to speak louder, so that it will go in here?
Q: O.k. The federal government is quibbling over $2,000,000,
you know, the amount of the destruction of the B.I.A. prop-
erty; but I don't know if you can speak to this, but what
about the tremendous cutbacks in funds, federal funds going
into Indian projects, programs, Indian Scholarship Program.
What, you know, what justifications are used for that?
17
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: Well, I have to say this. I don't know about tremendous
cutbacks. There has never been enough money for the Indian
people, I'll tell you that. And I say that too much money is
spent on the bureaucracy. I'll tell you that. Now, what we
must look too, in my view, is a scaling down of the bureau-
cracy, and the application of those funds to the Indian
people. This has been a constant struggle on our part. We
find the fact, in a large bureaucracy, I don't know how many
guys work for the Department of Interior that are supposed
to be working for the Indians. I don't know how many people
in the Department of Justice, it's fantastic, in comparison
with the number of Indian people. Now I don't know about the
cutbacks to which you alluded, I frankly don't, because there
have been some increases of funds for the Indian people. But
let me say this, the basic question I believe for Indian people,
is are you going to vie as an independent ethnic group, isn't
that what the issue is? Isn't that at least, there's all
whitey here, and that's how I see it. I think the issue is not
whether you become like your leaders, whether you remain like
18
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...you are.
Q: ?
S: Of individual Indians? I think that the Indians, I think the
Indians have the inherent right of internal self-government,
that is being daily supressed. I think that the Indian tribes
in the nation have the right to rule themselves with, under
the Constitution of the United States of America, with the
protection from the federal government that I think is
essential. It's the greatest asset you have, to have the
greatest nation on earth your trustee in guaranteeing your
interests. And I see a bargain that was struck when they
wrote the Constitution, and you people are being deprived of
that bargain.
Q: What would be accomplished then through federal recognition
for the Lumbee Indians? What would they ?
S: Well now, you're asking me an extremely difficult question.
My own view as I said to the professor today, I believe it's
written into the Constitution of the United States of America,
I think the Lumbees are entitled as Indians. And I think
that's all you need. But I do believe that it would be a very
19
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: hiFO I 010L
S: ... ious aiM effective idea to have present legislation amend-
ed to say, that be it, the Lumbee tribe is a tribe recognized
by the federal government under the Constitution with all the
rights and benefits accruing to them under the trustee re-
lationship. Does that make sense?
Q: Um huh.
S: This is what I think should be done in effect.
Q: What was the statement you made just before the very last
question ?
S: Right, would you play that back, I'm almost forgetting what
I said..
Q: Maybe some of you remember.You know, the authority was made
when the Constitution was written, and that Indian people are
being denied.
S: Professor, I think that is correct. I think that a bargain
was struck for the very reasons I spoke to originally. As-
suming that the Indians of this part of the country decided
to go to war against the colonies, you can imagine what would
happen. But I think a bargain was struck. If we sit down and
read the history, and I urge you people to read the Federalists.
20
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: -ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: I urge you to read their history in regards to the Articles
of Confederation. Madison wrote extensively about the in-
adequacy of the Articles of Confederation in regard to In-
dian people. I shouldn't say this now, but he wrote about
them. So they decided to have the states delegate their pow-
er to the federal government in regard to Indian people. And
this was the bargain that was struck. And the states delegated,
and the national government accepted the plenary, an exclusive
power in regard to Indian people. They didn't talk about re-
servations, they talked about the Indian people. And I think
that trust relationship exists. And I think that it is being
ignored. And I think that it is tragic. I truly think it is
tragic. I'm speaking as a lawyer, I'm not speaking about a
do-gooder, I'm not a do-gooder. I'm speaking as a guy who's
been out there and looked at it. And as a lawyer, I say to the
Indian people, assert yourselves, by all means. I don't, don't
but assert y-ourselves. I'm oppos-
ed to what happened up there, I really am. I think it's de-
sire. I think when they talk about $2,000,000 of damage, I
21
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...think I could get rich that way, I mean I can't believe
that $2,000,000 was done. I don't know, I'm not a guy that
can estimate it. But if you can look at a $50 damage, and it
jumps to 500, it's quite a thing you know. Anyhow, maybe there's
$2,000,000 in damage, I don't know. But I am saying to you
that that is a little tiny episode in the long long history
of the interference with Indian people. And I don't think it
would have transpired if the Indian people had been fairly
treated. I don't believe so. I believe that that, what I am
saying is correct. And I, if anyone wants to contradict me
on it, I'm simply going to say, I have been viewing the con-
duct, for example, of the Bureau of Reclamation in the western
United States. And I'm somewhat of an authority on that outfit.
I represented them for over 20 years as a lawyer in water li-
tigation. And I know what they've done to the Indian people.
I know that they intensly-circumvented the Winter's Doctrine
to get water for non-Indian people. Yes?
Q: You speak from a standpoint of somewhat an idealist, and an
exact legalist. The things you were talking about for Indian
people to do themselves, or to have done through the
22
NUMBER: LUM --126A
SUBJECT: DANFORD DIAL
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
Q: ...government, or the government guaranteeing them.
S: Guaranteeing them is what I am saying.
Q: O.k. well take information being given or being made available
to Indian people, and right now there's little access to that
information.
S: Well, you're looking at a very very unwieldy, unwieldy situ-
ation. You're looking at a situation where in my view, a defac-
to plan of termination of Indian-people is going forward.
Against the law and against Presedent Nixon's own declaration.
I think you're looking at the termination of the federalization
of the Indian people. I think in the future you're going to be
forced away from their great heritage, unless actions are
taken. We, we're trying it professor you know,
ask them, and you know that we're working with the American
Indian Historical Society, trying to defend the Indian rights
from the San Juan River, and the Rio Grande, and the Colorado
we're trying to do these things. But boy, it's a lonely strug-
gle, I'm telling you that. It's lonely. And it's difficult be-
cause you're looking at a tremendous bureaucracy who wants to
23
NUMBER: LUM -126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...take the Indian water to make, well, the special interests
rich from land, water, power. Forget the fact that we have a
guarantee to the Indian people. I'm not saying anything now
that I haven't repeatedly written.
Q: Wouldn't you think it would be better if the B.I.A. put to-
gether some information, half the trouble with our Indian people,
S: I'll tell you, I'm not trying to peddle my stuff, but we have
what we call the Proxmire Paper, I'll send you that if you
want it for this class.
Q: You can send a whole load&down to the agency known as L.R.D.A.
I'm sure they'll appreciate that. The people, I know a
thousand people would look at it.
S: We, as I say, these things we've written and they have been
published by Congress, and they have been published by the,
indeed, by the Department of Interior. Which will at least
give you a view as to the true characteristics under the
Constitution of the American Indian. And of course intoller-
able conflicts of interest are there depriving the Indians of
24
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...their heritage. And one of the great heritages, and I hope
you carry this away, the great heritage of the Indian people
is their right of internal self-government in these tribes.
It's the dignity of being an Indian. The dignity of being the
individual. And I don't like what I see. I have fought the
bureaucracy all of my life, and I'm going to continue fighting
it as long as I can be articulate. I don't worry a great deal
about the anger that I seem to raise once in awhile. I simply
am saying with honesty, you people that are taking the kind of
study, Contemporary Indian Problems, must look at the basic
problem. And the basic problem is the failure of the national
government properly to havesformeiLits:Constitutional rela-
tionship with you. This is the problem that the Indian Amer,
the American Indian has. It is the problem of the trustee, the
guy, the outfit that should be carrying out under the Consti-
tution, under our system, and there is no better system than
the checks and balances of the Executive, the Judiciary, and
the Congressional aspects, the Legislative aspects function-
ing together to carry out the trusteeship. It's breaking down
25
NUMBER: LUM 126A
SUBJECT: ADOLPH DIAL
INTERVIEWER: DANFORD DIAL
S: ...at the level at which I function. That is the active part
of government is breaking down, not the concepts, not the
Constitution, not the decisions, it is the Executive branch
that is consistently failing to perform. You're smiling, it's
true. You don't believe me huh?
Q: Well I just wonder who's the head ofi;the Executive branch.
S: Well it's not hard to, it's not hard to say, President Nixon
is in charge of the, of it.
Q: Right.
S: But he can't even reach through the bureaucracy. I'll bet you
he would say, "The guy is right." He would say, "How do I reach
through this impervious bureaucracy?"
Q: Well in other words, you're saying the bureaucracy is in control
of the appointed officials over it.
S: The bureaucracy seems to go on.
Q: I would like to you know, express my opinion on this, that you
know, first of all I think we've got to think in terms of all
of Washington being a bureaucratic government you know.
Q: The government within itself?
S: Pardon?
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