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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 122A
Subject: Roscoe Brooks
Interviewer: Lew Barton (I: interviewer)
Date: June 13, 1973
Typist: JoAnn Suslowicz
Side I
I: This is June 13, 1973. I am Lew Barton interviewing.for the Doris Duke
Foundation and the University of Florida's History Department American
Indian Oral History Program. Today we are here in Lumberton, North Carolina
at the North Carolina State Department of Corrections, Robeson County
Unit. This is the third interviewee of the day, and with me right now is
one of the inmates, whom I will question very shortly. Sir, I want to thank
you for coming in and talking with us on this program. Would you mind
telling us what your name and number is?
B: My name is Roscoe Brooks. My number is 3063378. I'm from Robeson County
and I am an inmate serving time here, and I've been serving for quite a
while.
I: Um-hm. (Affirmative) Would you mind telling us your offense, or do you get
tired of people asking you that question?
B: Well, no, it's nothing to be ashamed of. I think I have rehabilitated myself.
I have a good job, an h1/fr e ri"
I: That's great.
B: And, oh well, getting along good. I think, according to society, I have paid
my utility according to the law, and I have no objection to that.
I:. Um-hum. Uh, now who were--who were your parents? Are you from Robeson?
B: I'm from, uh, across the river here at Pembroke. Behind the old Brook
settlement.
I: Um-hum.
B: And I guess--you know, a lot of my people are over there; the Locklears and
LUM 122A 2
Brookses.
I: And, uh, how long have you been in?
B: I've been serving time ever since 1949.
I: Uh-huh. (Affirmative) Are you looking forward to getting out?
B: I'm looking forward to building a good life.
I: Uh-huh. Uh, do you know--do you have any idea when that will be?
B: I have approximately two years.
I: Uh-huh. Well I sure hope you make it, and, uh, uh, I would like to ask you
if you would mind telling us some of your experiences--or just about anything
you'd want to talk about. We don't want you to talk about anything you
don't want to talk about.
B: Deffinitely (?) I'ld like to talk about rehabilitation. We've come a long
ways in this unit.
I: Um-hum.
B: We have a staff and real nice staff officers, and I come here 1950, I was
first sentenced to the mountain camp. January 1, 1950 I moved in here on.
I: Uh-huh.
B: I've had a lot of ups and downs. Anybody--it's always my fault. I understand
that. I think since Mr. Dill Brooks took over this unit, he has really
brought it a long ways. He's tried to rehabilitate every man with plus
giving him the opportunity and the chance to. He's made a lot of introduc-
tions, he's made a lot of programs that we did not have when he come here.
I think I've seen 'em all come and go out. And Mr. Harry '. ; Locklear I
think is the first Superintendent, and Mr. Hammer was the second, and Mr.
Oxedine was the third and a Mr. Oxedine again which is still with us. One of
our first. .
I: Would this be Mr. Rov-UL Oxedine?
B: Mr. o Oxedine. Mr. Oxedine, he is still with us. I think he's, uh,
LUM 122A 3
sitting in 1 c__ until, um, maybe somebody comes up better. We have
the greatest--one of the greatest and helping men--giving them an opportunity
to try to rehabilitate themselves as we ever had and that's Mr. Dill Brooks.
I: That's great. I'm certainly glad to hear you say that. And you certainly
do have an institution here to be proud of, and I'm proud of. .
B: I'm proud of the rehabilitation school, and I'm proud of--when he came here
he went all out to try to do what he could for us. When he first come here
we had no TV's, in other words we had 'em but they weren't no good. He
installed new TV's and got this here. All programs' system started. He has
been working' faithful with us, and he would help every man to gain a chance,
an opportunity to help him. In fact of the business, he's helped me, I'ld
say about three times. He, he never gives up on a man. That's one good
thing about him. I like it about him, because he never doubts a man.
I: Well that's great.
B: And I think any prison system should have a man that will work with 'em
like that and try to show 'em that the--he's not been forgotten. When you
get in a position ..with quite a few years, uh, ahead of you to go, you get
in the position that the world don't owe you nothing, and you don't owe them
nothing, and nobody cares any more, yeah, I think you need a man like him to
reach out and say he's not been forgotten. I'm still here to help you, so
this changes a man's mind quite a bit.
I: It changes his attitude. .
B: And his mind. Yes it does.
I: .to know that somebody does care.
B: Somebody does care. We know that, um.
I: Right.
B: Do I know myself by me being here? When I came here I couldn't read, couldn't
LUM 122A 4
write, but now I've -i .'i5 i toga Minister's degree and I've been
working with God for the past twelve years.
I: Oh, that's great.
J -1
B: And, uh, I think I know the bible from the beginnings -- the Revelation. I
think he's done everything that any inmate would let him do according to
God's word.
I: Do you--you remember Mrs. Mary Livermore, don't you?
B: Mrs. Mary Livermore? A person of established Y u You
went all out and worked hard for us to get her chapel here.
I: Uh-huh.
B: There's been quite a few of 'em i r-C '. fI and you try to worship
her in some ways like she was something special.
I: Um-hum. She certainly was. I agree with you there.
B: She was the finest lady we ever had in this part of the county.
hce.
I: I remember coming over4several times with her and sort of helping her out in
teaching, you know, adult education.
B: She taught it--she done everything she could to help.
I: Um-hum.
B: And no matter what some of the guys wanted, you know, her to do any little
thing.
I: Anything for them.
B: Or, whether it was little or not, if she could do it to help them, she would.
She made a statement here one time in my presence. She wanted God to let us
stay here long enough to see this Chapel finished and see the worksof God
start to moving on before we'ld leave and I think he let her see that a lot.
LUM 122A 5
I: Oh, that's great. Um, it certainly was sad when she passed along.
B: r.i, I? I Vr O\Ar but nevertheless, God knows the
best, and therefore, there's always somebody to come and take over and keep
"-S I think a lot of Brother Harold Wood, he's our Chaplain. He tries
to do everything he can to help the inside world.
I: Is that Rev. James Harold Wood?
B: James Harold Wood, yes.
I: Um, what is the name of your chapel, or what do you call it?
B: Uh, Proven Friend Chapel. In other words, we have a Proven Friend Society out at
Pembroke whose done us-quite a few of 'em worked into it, and so, I would say
in--on Christmas we have, oh, we have a great sum of money. It's from the
Baptist 1cO : *r -4 y. South Carolina. And a, and a
1ibm neh N S \1 Aj) f came in with us--each month he gives us five
dollars each--the church gives us five dollars to donate to the Proven Friend
Society. We just have a great feast. To be shut in at Christmas time.
k ( because he had appropriated money for that.
I: That's great. Uh, Miss Mary,-uh, let's see, the, uh, Proven Friend Association,
it supported, as I understand it, according to what he just said, by the )' L'I' Sv '
Baptist Association?
B: Association, yes.
I: And, uh, let's see. Who is head of that now, do you know?
B: ,I don't know exactly, but I think, um, seems to me like I got the news that Brother
\Q \ C, 1 Ias appointed. I know he was appointed as 't '.L
but I think he was settled with that, too.
I: Uh-huh. I understand it's an organization of about 41 or 42 missionary Baptist
churches.
B: Workers, yes.
LUM 122A 6
I: Uh, and uh, this is certainly great. This is the largest organization among our
people right now.
B: Oh, I--I would think, certainly.
I: How many that are Indian churches?
B: All of them is Indian Churches. Now you take when I--I paid my dues as the outside
worldje/ i)k where I could pay my dues. I want to show my love
towards my fellow man with--inside. We have a firm within we--men, white and
black, Indians--somebody deceased in the family--back in '.. tS we got a man's
sister died--deceased. Maybe we can send him out money. So, I'm the man to
go with that. To, to go around and try to show our love towards one another.
We got to help the man-that we--let's get up $25 and buy--buy him a wreath to
give to his sister. And I think that's a great thing.
I: It is. I was just wondering:about the, uh, number of people who've come
and gone since you, uh, were here. I bet you remember a lot of them. People
who've come. .
B: I remember quite a few of them, thank to goodness. I look around sometimes and
say to myself--when I first started serving time--I can't recall too many
names because, um, them that is still living is very few. Now this was, um,
80 man unit when I first started serving time, and I would say 60 percent
of them men that I really new are deceased, or something bad happened to 'em.
And I look at myself sometime, and I have to thank God for letting me stay
here for some purpose. Uh, I feel like sometime--then we're shut up. Then
we're--I committed a crime and I'm not--I'm not proud of being shut up, but
I'm just proud to be a living if I is inside..
I: You're not bitter about it, uh. .
B: I'm not bitter about it one bit. In fact, the fact of the business I thank
God--if He can come in here as good as he can go outside. As long as I'm
LUM 122A 7
paying a debt to society, I have no I(Kcl( v1iivtX3\'C .
)C 0 C. n c ; 1 b C( 16 ""T
I: What happened to that L e- yha eh--an eriany-but, uh, gospel singing' [:'
al/istenMg to te _tlady,- lt;1 Ug a ________
B: Uh-huh. Well we used to have, um, two bands. Fact of the business, youttake
the inside. You've got to have help from the outside, and somebody to support
'em. You only show your love through your fellow man, and if we could get
someone--I have quite a few of 'em to :.'I'.: I; ~ '. We will--we
would enjoy--we would love to form of couple of bands, uh, gospel singing,
um, some church singing, just anything to let the outside world know that
we've not been forgotten. And, I have to say this, we have quite a few men,
uh, good men. I just--I would say that for that matter, every man that should
become thirty years old, I believe shouldn't be surprised to have broken the
law. And we're just some that got caught. We just didn't get away as clean
as the other man did.
I: Um-hum.
B: And, I think if we give opportunity--now we know that somebody's gonna mess
up down the line unless--we don't want this to stop it.
I: Um-hum.
B: We want the opportunity and all programs. I think the--gonna pull 'em off
of the road--all these don't go on working--if we could get the outside of the
a
world to working with us, we can'make thisAhome instead of a prison, and they
can feel at home.
I: Yeah. There certainly has, uh, come a long way in a short while. Uh, you
know, I was thinking when you were talking about the saying that the' -_
there, when I see somebody in prison, or somebody, um, who is shackled by,-.'r
___ co _. or something like that, I always say, there but for
LUM 122A 8
the grace of God do I.
B: There, there, there you go. I knew, um, I can quote many scriptures. I've
been--I asked God to help me. As I read about King Solomon and his daddy--
daddy David 1 .,
one of them that went to God for wisdom, and he acquired the knowledge to
understand the word--the book of Mathew t-; I think
that you have to show your love towards the shut in. You can make a man do
what you want him to do by showing your love toward him. Nowadays you find
"w e-hax'en hc x-0---," A and therefore you don't demand a man to
do nothing. You may kill him, but you don't demand him to do nothing and
therefore you're not showing love nowhere.
I: Um-hum. Well, uh, uh, do you have any ideas for change--anything of yours at
all? What would you do?
B: Well, there's not too much we can change, unless we just get into a program
of worshipping. A program of singing. This would be about the only thing
that will cure you, andn M .'- it started rehabilitation--I think
we've got one of the greatest If'j&U to ever sit in the seat, and I've
seen 'em all come and go, trying to help us. And, he give us every oppor-
tunity, every chance. If a prisoner really in--in other words, I want to say
it, not just--we don't deserve what we are getting. We eat plenty, and we have
as good a food according to what I hear on the outside, and occasionally I
have some people to bring me food, and they bring me the very best they got.
7 /
But we never eat f ~ the year 'round.
I: Um-hum. That's good to know. .About, maybe, 15 or 20 years ago, uh, I was
talking to somebody who had been in a jail, and I asked him about the food
there, and he says well, L'}\ -/ t they have beef that looks
like they run the cow through the kitchen. It's not that way here is it?
LUM 122A 9
B: It's not that way here. I noticed I was e rein there last
night. And I guess we--we should have got close to two to three hundred
just as pretty a roasts. Just as pretty as you'd ever see, laying in
the meat counter. We got one of the best Sews we ever had. He, he, he's
really particular and he tries to fix it the very best way he know how,
and if any man go hungry here, he's sick. There's nothing wrong with his--
I mean, you know, his appetite, he, uh, if he ain't, if you go hungry
anyway, it's, uh, you're just a sick man because we have--I, I would say
on the average the best food that I ever see in this unit in the past
five to six years.
I: What was your cooks name?
B: Mr. Bobby Shaeffer. I guess you knew him. Ur, this is, u. .
I: Is he an inmate here? ,t
B: No, sir. He's. <- outside.
I: I see.'
IAht'%17 / 1.4 '// I -k
B: But he has inmates working itm ithe '' head man in the kitchen. You
Lzjorlfcrc ^ SY
have three 4 but you only have one so called, uh, uh, steward.
I: How do you feel about, um, the people who are fortunate enough to be on work
releases. Would you. .
B: I think that's one of the greatest programs that ever come forward, because
I've talked, you know, I'm among them, and you got men in there with very
long time, uh, trying to explain to 'em ten dollars a week. Uh, uh, uh,
otherwards, you have to break it down to a man. Ten dollars a week. If he's
on work release making 5 to 80 dollars, he--you only get ten dollars a week.
You allow him that much to draw, and, uh
I: And he has the rest when he gets out. ..
B: Oh, well. The way they did when I was on work release, you, um, pay your
board and so much, but over that they take good care of it. And I think
LUM 122A 10
it's one of the greatest things to let a man work his way through, although
he's paying his debt to society, and this would really take a load off our
welfare.department with outside.
I: Um-hum. And that certainly helps the state, uh. .
B: It helps the political system. I think Mr. Lee B-i .01 6 made a state-
ment. If he could get the system like he wanted it, that he would make
inmates feed inmates. That's why we have men out there today that are not
able to work. And you don't have an J\C(C )C. ,He can't help himself,
although he committed a crime. Now you take me. I'm an able bodied man
to work, and definitely I do love to work. I love to go outside and--
this type of work, and I don't know much other but laying out of pipes and
ditches and so forth, as long as'we're helping : Robeson County. I feel
like if we can get this thing arranged around to where the men would go on
work release, get 'em back with the highway department--work a lot of men.
It would help keep budgets down a little bit.
I: Are you married?
B: I'm a married man. My wife's divorced. I got two boys that are grown. My
oldest boy finished high school this year.
I: Um-hum. Who was it you married?
B: I married Rosa Scott. She was a Scott before I married her.
I; Um-hum. And, uh, you say you had how many children?
B: I had had three, but one 'em got killed--deceased. We have two boys who are
grown.
I: And what are there names?
B: Aurora Brooks and Roman Brooks.
I: How old are they?
B: I have one seventeen. One going on sixteen.
I: I should have asked you your age, but I didn't.
LUM 122A 11
B: My age--42.
I: Forty-two.
B: P1k gcv# 3cS j(ic I K
I: Um-hum. Do you, well, I shouldn't ask--don't need to ask you..
B: Don't bother asking me anything. .
I: .about what you're gonna do when you get out and everything. I hope that,
urnm.
B: When you say dream, do you mean do I sit around and think about it?
I: Urn-hum. ., '^
B: Yes, I tave to--have to always I have to--if I've not lost
hope in myself, and who has done everything he could to give me--I was a human
being in the world--even he had not forgotten me. I made him a vow. I, I, I
got a good job. I can get a good job. I can hold any kind of job, if the, if
the Lord be with me and I keep my head-up, and I enjoy working.
I: Well, um, I wouldn't suppose that any of the guys, not, not very many of the
guys, anyway, are working release, uh, would sort of mess up if they get an
opportunity to help themselves. Don't most of the guys usually take advan-
tage of it and go ahead?
B: You were, uh, you had the same thing here, or, or, in a way you have in the
,______ You're gonna have difficulty--small problems anywhere you
have two hundred men. Some of 'em is gonna come up and break a rule and then
go on and get caught. Where others don't want to hurt nobody but himself.
They've understood that in the past years, and this man's got to pay for his
his punishment, but he don't want to hurt the other man. Now you take. .
I: That's good.
B: .. .what happened back up here in the state. All four, five months agoAin
O.
Maitland, where-they like to hurt the whole prison system byAcrime he committed.
Well, if you look at your news in the newspaper and so forth and so on, it's
LUM 122A 12
being committed every day by the outside world.
I: Yeah.
B: I would say in. .
I: Ij''Jh t M ''itS '
B: Ur, I think it was
I: Uh-huh.
B: You see that gCvesdhm)j ._ 't ,,
I: Was he o-the 0 ?
B: TT2:. On work release, um, um, let me think of his own work release. I think
he was working to-b -e a, inatee rr-...-.-.... and then he went on and didn't
return.
I: Uh-hum.
B: Well, by rights he wasn't on the prison system because an office had taken this
on itself to take in the boy and put him in a hotel, so he just left. I think
he had a nice time.
I: Uh-huh. Do you have a good A.A. chapter over here?
B: I don't think the boys dis--I believe they they've licked that part of it. I
think they dropped it. We don't get out much anymore.
I: Well I know some people who are very much interested in establishing A.A. in
the county. My son who owns the Carolina Indian Voice, for example, has done
work, uh, along those lines, and he's very much interested in it.
B: Oh, I think, uh, we should have this because when you get down to talking a
man--to a man about prob--a problem, and drinking is a problem, problem drink-
ing myself--if you get down to talking to a man about a problem, he won't, say,
understand, and a lot of times, well when he just quit, I think you had quite
a few members of it, and this A.A. I think it's a great thing because, um, it,
it, it donates a lot to this unit. It gives a lot of pride to this unit. It
LUM 122A 13
shows a man what they're trying to do.
I: Um-hum.
B: And you have some people especially in our race you got to, not only talk to
him, you got to show him something.
I: Yeah.
B: I think that helps a lot.
I: Well, maybe, uh, he'll get that chapter started, and would you --would you be
willing to help along with him?
B: I would be glad to help. I--I'll participate in anything that--to try to
rehabilitate a man. I've come to the decision that I wants to help. I wants
to help rehabilitate anything, and support anything that's come along.Now..
I: .help somebody else.
B: Help somebody else. Show a man what I've been through it. Experience means a
lot. But I hate--I went through the experience and I'ld love to tell what
drinking, and what, um, uh, cruelty to your fellow man. So forth and so on. I
have a, a escape record, but I'm '' officer here can kick against me if
I've been the type of person who's trying to hurt anybody. I've been here along
J"T 'C n<^<- o i/'. .
time. I're4ve-don my-_ for punishment.
I: Uh-huh. Um, I've heard people talk about the hole--it's not as bad as it used
to be.
B: No sir. It really ain't as bad. I escaped in 1950 and you put me in that
thing--that box cell at .'___ and you gave me six months and I was shocked,
and the doctor didn't even check me in 1950, and he didn't pay you anything to
deny me [ i time. We have some like that, and really one of the strictest
him
rules is that you've got to have there, it's a, it's just a law that you've
got to have him there, and he's, he's really very__very nice. He's laying up
there eating three meals a day, he's got air-condition.
LUM 122A 14
I: In the hole? / f
B: In the hole, and, uh, in other words he just cut offices. I'm not criticizing
a
him. I'm glad to see it thisAway because now-a-days and times if we get a man
that we can't __-, or if they get a man that they can't { and he's
gonna just keep right on, they have a place for him to, to rehabilitate these
J-
rr \) You've got to try and keep talking to him. Then you can't do
nothing with him, you send him somewhere anyhow.
I: Um-hum. We were talking about the rules, uh, the gentleman read the list of
rules, um, um, the inmates know the rules, don't they, and they, they learn
them. .
B: Pretty much on their own.
I: If a fellow happens to slip up on one, and he's, uh, doing something he doesn't
quite know what he's doing, somebody--some of his fellow inmates will try to
guide him won't they?
B: Well, now you have, um, two sides of the thing. Now, according to who the
inmate is. Now you got, uh, I would say agitators as well as you have rehabili-
tated men in there.
I: Um-hum.
B: And, uh, we have quite a few of them. I think that maybe you can say about every
man in there. He may be in his office a lot, but he's, uh, he knows what goes
on down here.
I: Right.
B: In other words, uh, uh, it's the same thing as in a high school. You got some
boys in there and they want to get by with this. Uh, uh, uh, maybe smoking
marihuana, or drink a little whiskey, or Sip s So you have here
in your prison unit, and I'll lay you every dollar you got that some of these
young men and they're the same way they is in the high school. And then you got
LUM 122A 15
some of 'em that really wants to learn. He want to be somebody. Then you got
some in there that just ain't gonna be nobody, I don't care how they're mother
and father sent 'em to school.
I: You think we have some in the prison that can't be helped? Who won't be helped?
B: I would say yes in prisons. I don't believe there's too many on this unit that
don't appreciate everything that you do. And the fact of the business--if, if
he happen to stumble, talk to him and show him what you're trying to do, and he'll
be ('7 I rC(frt in, in, in just a few moments.
I: I was talking to one officer yesterday, and somebody said this morning he was
hoping for a hundred percent, uh, record in rehabilitating his men. Do you think
this is too optimistic? Too hopeful? Do you think this is too much to hope
for?
B: I don't--I don't believe so. Really I don't. The way this program's system's
going now and the way it will be in the next few days, or;.a year or so, a man
had no--had no right to mess up. Or I could say that drinking, a man's subject
to get caught drinking or doing something, uh, with they put itythe Watergate
Committee. Some of them got caught.
I: Right. Somehow I agree to that. Sometimes they do get caught even in high
places don't they?
B: That's right. But I think this is, will, will be one of the units--now we have
all men, all types of men that come in on this unit, and he don't want to leave
this unit. That's the reason why it's more jof. a home than it is a prison unit.
I: Maybe it's better for him to be on the outside. Do you think you have that
case sometimes?
b: Oh, well I couldn't rightly put it that way, but it looks that way.
I: Um-hum.
B: It really looks that way.
LUM 122A 16
I: Um, men shut up in prison for a long time have a woman problem as you know. Uh,
uh, I know I would have if I was locked up. Although I was in the Navy, and
we would be out to sea for long periods of time, and just not seeing women.
B: Um-hum.
I: Just seeing them, ws*, uh, encourages a fellow. He doesn't have to even talk to
them. Uh, and somebody told them that you'd have some women in the prison now.
B: Uh, I think we got all six or eight down here working, and they visit us, and why
naturally we can't visit them, but they allow 'em to come up and visit. And we
just has a good time.
I: Uh-huh. Do you think that there ought to--this is--sounds like a dumb question,
but this is encouraging to the men?
B: I think so. Really I do. Really, I think so. It makes them feel--it is being
rehabilitate. Maybe one object, that if you get eight men to believe in
that he could talk to somebody that says, well, I went out visiting 4 r S0.
and he and I talked thirty minutes, this is every afternoon. I think, though,
now you're going to have a problem with one or two out of five or six hundred
which probably goes beyond the rules of those things from now on. Taken on the
other hand you have rehabilitative powers on him.
I: Well that's--you have a fellow who is, uh, sort of a problem to the other
fellows and, do they do anything about it themselves?Do they try to correct him?
B: He tried--yes, to, um, we have some very nice men in there that they--he would
try to correct him. Correct him in his--his--the problem, so on and so on.
The officers would then ,- do it, and, uh, he'd o' t 'C e c o i
Then, then if he got, uh, keep on--keep on agonizing this matter, they've always
got a place for him.
I: Um-hum. Do you think the punishment here is too severe?
B: No sir. By me being an inmate I couldn't say too severe, but rather than
LUM 122A 17
:. cruelty and hate in a man I think it would be better to move him from out
of his district or--to some people you can't be good to. To some people you
really can't be nice to, and I would say 95 to 98 percent of 'em appreciate it.
I: Uh-huh. Now, uh, you're working with, with 6 fellow inmates and you being in
ministry and all, there's a question I've always wanted to ask, and I've heard
it said that I never could quite accept the answer I got, and I want to ask
you, do you think every man has a conscience'that works, I mean an active
conscience?
B: Um, I believe this, and I've want to run up with one. I believe that men are as
school children. There are some has a conscience, and a very few don't. I
believe that a man who told me one time, right after Miss Mary Livermore got
some* talking to him, and he went over to me when I first got saved and he said
son, you've made a good start, but there's one thing I want to ask you. And
do it for me, don't never turn around. He says I been saved four times and he
says today God will not have me because I can't cry, if I see my mother burning
up I can't cry. I think this man had really lost his conscience, his belief,
and his feeling in God will leave a human being.
I: Um-hum. Do you think, in other words, that the Lord deals with a man so, so
long. .
B: So long, and he'll. .
I: when he rejects him he. .
B: .he rejects him he don't cone to him anymore, and this man is just a tree
setting in the field waiting for you to move it where you can plant it good.
That's the way God deals with man.
I: Um-hum. So you've seen God working in this prison camp then haven't you,
with men, in men and through men?
LUM 122A 18
B: Indefinitely--indefinitely. I've seen miracles performed here through God, and
one of the miracles is we just got through talking about it. A man commit a
crime, he come here, he, he, he, he's in a good place, and he don't want to
rehabilitate here, you're not going to rehabilitate him by turning him loose.
And so, miracles is being performed to me everyday. Of course, there's nothing
new to me. Everything has been done, or said. I already read about it before-
hand.
I: Um-hum.
B: As I've always told ministers, this--God gives me mine. I didn't get it from
where you find it, or, um, this difference in God's call and God's wisdom than
it is in the school, really is difference in it, and when you get that belief,
and feeling and faith down in your heart, there's not enough devils in hell
to move you.
I: um-hum. v i i!
B: And furthermore, if for, um, God is for yout- b against you, nobody can
harm you, even though it takes this body, but in the spirit I see, I feel it's
there. i
I: Um-hum. Uh, turhe--eA ly -.. '. -- i-per erm '.4 there's some
that they like better than others?
B: And definitely I'm needed me. I'm needed now. Um, usually when we get a man
where I see work here in the last two or three weeks, that didn't know his job,
or, or wanted to be too hasty, um, and, the, the, the--you got experienced
officers and fine men. You see all the officers, the new officers moving in--
Syou ever move into the third shift, cause he don't realize what he's doing,
mind a thing and everything a man do or say or he's running him in for it, and
this man don't like that, and they move him to the third shift. Now if this
officer go back and call me or one of the inmates in, uh,
LUM 122A 19
he'd say hey when the new man come in, you have convicts been here so long
to, really he don't want a new officer set him in nothing, cause he know it
all anyway.
I: Um-hum. So, uh, do you think that, uh, most of the prisoners are satisfied--
happy? Well not happy, but. .
B: I would say so in this unit. This unit.
I: Can you see any changes in that direction due--we speak of it as morale. You
know, when people are in good spirits, and, and do things willingly, uh, just
having good morale among prisoners. Uh, do you think the morale here is better
than it used to be?
B: Indefinitely. It's a lot better.
I: Um-hum.
B: Because every man you talk to now, he'll tell you right quick he's got something
to look forward to. I can't afford to goof around. I can't afford to get
caught with that. I can't afford to get caught with a lowered knife. I can't
afford to get taken narcotics. I can't afford to caught drinking.
I: Um-hum.
B: Definitely on these men it has a lot to lose, and that's the way biggest of 'em
think themselves. They want rehabilitation, and I feel a lot of it coming on.
I: Uh, there was a time, you know, just a few years ago, when I never heard of
marihuana, unless you did?
B: Kinda.
I: In this county because there just didn't seem to be any around.
B: That's right. That's right.
I: It's gotten to be some kind of problem now. Uh, I wonder if, uh, I'm not asking
you to, uh, rat on anybody or anything like that now, but just give me the, but
do you think it has gotten to be a problem?
LUM 122A 20
B: Not on this unit. Not on this unit, because--I don't know. You deal with 'em.
Of course I know you, I know you there in the outside world you have so many
Indians really scared of narcotics.
I: Um-hum.
B: He seen it. He's seen the other man throw away his health. If you watch a
Indian, the average Indian, if you watch him he's smarter than the average person
because he's scared of a thing with, uh, uh, hurt his health--scare him so he
won't deal with it.
I: Um-hum.
B: We got this camp pretty well loaded with them.
I: Um, do you think, uh, it works better to have, uh, well most of the prisoners
here are Indians, aren't they?
B: Most, most.
I: Do you think they--they're happier because they have, uh, officers--Indian.
officers, that sort of thing, working with them?
B: Uh, indefinitely. And segregation? All men, I think by talking to them, he
don't see any difference because we have, um, couple or three Coloreds, Whites,
and this is fine, because he come to this unit.
I: Um-hum.
B: And so he can't kick against that because--I try to tell men like this which I'm
not the rehabilitation man, but I do a lot of it. I mean I watch these men.
God looks at the heart of a man and not on the outward appearance. And so regard-
less of what color you is, and the biggest of 'em will tell you that. If you
treat me nice, I'll treat you nice. And so we have Coloreds here. Fine men.
Just as fine as--like the businessmen, two or three of 'em were talking--we
would love to see a Colored Sergeant. We don't have a man. We got one. I believe
he'd make a fine man.
I: Um-hum.
LUM 122A 21
B: That won't start--that won't hurt this camp none.
I: Uh-huh. Well that's good. Uh-huh. That's certainly encouraging. Um, so you
don't think Miss Mary will have-been forgotten?
B: She'll never--she never will be forgotten as long as we keep on reminding men of
her. I think by talking to a lot of new inmates, we talk about her a lot of
times, especially once a year when these different, kinda problems and parties,
and so forth came up. Now, um, she would always, you know yourself Mr. Barton,
regardless of what program you get in, if you watch yourself, especially when
there's money appropriated for something, when you are in the Proven Friend
Society, and this is what we're speaking about. Now the Proven Friend Society
,s ,I (.^rc-
is to buy I ~' and toothpaste, soap, toothbrushes. Well, when she fell
and deceased, I may never get it anymore. And they often talking about it.
Now when Miss Livermore was living, we could go to her and get what we wanted.
See, she was a mother to this unit. This unit don't have a-mother anymore.
I: Um-hum.
B: And so she never will be forgotten until this generation moves on.
I: Uh, maybe we can do something about that. We, uh. .
B: It would be a great thing.
I: .uh, some of the boys, of course some people who are, uh, you know, are
fortunate enough to earn their. .
B: Still.
I: .to, uh, yeah, to work releases and so on, but there are many more of you
who can't--you can't until a certain time has passed, and all that, and so, in
the mean time, they, they have certain needs and. .
B: They have their needs and, take in business, I work in and I'm
very fortunate. God has prepared a table before me, and I can get most anything
that an inmate would be--could have. But I see the other man. Now we have some
LUM 122A 22
people that maybe just people fell asleep on. He don't have an income. He
don't have a trade, and it would really would be--give a great thrill to my
life to donate at least five or ten dollars a month to that society to buy
himself Lk rVi )
I: Ur-hum.
B: See I work\j, myself and I have no problem I'm'always got most of what
I want, that an inmate could have. I'm looking at the other man, and we got,
if the bank -F /I "!AC+- l 1 we should have 15 to 20 thousand dollars the
last count I had of it anyway. In other words, it's just fell asleep on us
and we got money there, I knew it's there because I'm a member and was until
it just fell asleep the men of the Prison Friend Society, and after we got our
chapter paid for I think it's about three year ago, we had over $7,000 in that
fund there but we don't know where the money is. When Mrs. Mary Livermore was
living we could always--every month, she would tell you how much money there
was in it, and say we gonna spend $50 for soap--50, 60, 90 dollars to buy soap,
0 r toothpaste, toothbrushes for these men. But she's not here any-
more.
I: Maybe we could look into that, see what we could do, and, uh, if, uh, we don't
have the funds JIi-C /i1 t' l I mean, more people can donate
money and help. Uh, I think it's a good thing in the ability, you know, to
change. They may be, uh, maybe we could do something about getting j ?j)
B: If I'm a Prisoner Friend Society there's not--lost the money, let's put it that
way. We have plenty of money, and I think that's what the Prisoner's Friend
Society is for, is to help -ht-ar.
I: Well, uh, I'm wondering if, um, about your relatives. Do they come to see you
very often?
B: Well, my mother. She lives at Fairmont. Sisters: I got six sisters and five
brothers; twelve head in the family. And lessen you want to see me, I had my
LUM 122A 23
mother's telephone put in down there, and I can call her maybe twice a week,
and I never meet anything that--unfortunate enough by God's help to support
myself, and really--my Daddy deceased about three year ago. She can only support
herself. She never was a woman to want to look to the children but O0 )
\1"- takes care of them, and I never need anything from the outside world
no more than somebody to talk to.
I: Yes. Do you remember Stukey? Stukey Jacobs?
B: Jacobs, yes sir.
I: He's gone now, isn't he?
B: Uh, yes he's out. I think if I ain't mistaken, he would have married brother
Harold Woods' mother.
I: Is that right, now? I haven't seen him in years, but he and I used to be
very close. I'ld like, I'ld certainly like to see him. I'm glad he is out
though, you know, probably doing well.
B: Um, I don't know whether you remember me or--do you know a fellow called
Roman ? YC 74.I
I: Uh-huh.
B: You don't remember me. You came down and went back up.
I: My vision is so poor, you see. How long has it been since before you left?
B: Oh, 53.
I: Uh-huh, 53. My vision is so poor, I, you know, I don't see well enough to
recognize. .you know, and, um, if I had seen you more often, and I ought to
be seeing you more often, I, you know, wouldn't have that difficulty. Well,
um, what do you think, um, now we've talked about people on the outside, and
let's, let's assume that somebody at home in the, outside doesdi.-want to help.
Um, what would be the best way of going about it, supporting the Prisoner's
Friend Society, or do you have any ideas about it?
LUM 122A 24
B: Well, I don't think they have any means to support it, if the rules were
carried out. It could support itself already because it-relig-ion-very strong 1,,,
somebody, somebody should look into it.
I: Uh-huh.
B: And, uh, we fell one time before the Prisoner's Friend Society, and this is,
uh, when Mr. um, Bob ") h I helped him get it back
started.
I: Um-huh.
B: So it started itself again. It's just strange because it just don't carry on.
Or something. I don't know what it is.
I: The :SE. BobU W.V' is a good man to work in at anything like that.
B: He's very nice. He's very nice, and, but what .
I,
I: I'll have to talk to 0"i (''Ct and see what, you know, what we can do
about it.
B: Check the funds and you will find, I think thZt-pretty well all right. I don't
see--fortunately Mr. Davis the secretary, I think that there's i *-
r(1 (I ',:,i r* Cvery close.
I: Um-hum.
B: And I know, um, he knows about this amount of money. We got plenty of money
in there to support ourselves. All we want is somebody to work.
I: Maybe do you think that the problem might be that we just don't have anybody
right now who--who's interested in it as Miss Mary was?
B: That's the problem. I don't know ) )O'J), my brother Jim Davis has told me
time and time and time again. .
SIDE .II
I: This is side two of the third interview on June 13, 1973, and uh, we were talk-
ing just now when we were interrupted by the tape running out, uh, you were
LUM 122A 25
saying something about Brother Jim Chavis who works with, uh, the 2f LSwamp
Baptist Association probably. Is that right?
B: That's right. I believe he's a member over at, uh, l Swamp, I. .
I: Barret Swamp.
B: Barret Swamp.
I: 1C3rref Swamp is the name of the Association that supported the church.
B: (A f(e of the two I'm not sure which.
I: Uh, do you remember what you said right there when the tape ran out?
B: Uh, I do, uh. .
I: Maybe you could. .
B: Um, you asked me, um,'about our church attendance.
I: Uh-huh.
B: Uh, we have a few--simple reasons why that. .we've been used to. .if we go
to church; want to hear a man that cuts deep and this is the wrong
place to send a teacher--let him call himself a preacher.
I: Uh-huh.
B: And, if this man came on time. .we're going to hear him. Good enough. But
if he came again, they won't hardly go out to see him because he taught 'em
and didn't cut 'em deep. I think, and I've always brought this to Brother
Woods' thinking, though Jim, he agreed, that this is where you need to--the
cut deep at, because we have committed a crime, we know about the crime, and
now you've got to go down and grind the crime out. You can't teach it out of
no hard criminal. You got to go down and cut him deep. You got a lot of men
in there would be .
I: You got to reach his conscience ...,
B: Reach his conscience, and let him know that vice shall not kill is still the
word of God, and cut him when you talk to him about it.
LUM 122A 26
I: Ur-hum.
B: And, so, I think if we put some hard-hitting men in here that we will make,
uh, uh, uh, a church group. That's what we want, a church group.
I: Uh-huh.
B: And with the church group we'll make a rehabilitating group.
I: Um-hum.
B: And with the rehabilitating group we'll make it a camp of the holy ground and
not a prison unit because we don't have the help from the outside. Nobody
cares anymore. I think that this thing comes up to everybody 5 looking for
help, and he's got something to look forward to.
I: Right.
B: You don't kiss the whole *J anymore because you can see Mr.--well we
K4e _f to put it on our daddy, Mr. Joe Brooks--give him all the credit
for it. He held--that man took this unit, we maybe had one on work release,
or two. When he said I am ypur superior, I am your superintendent, I am the
wheel now; and I made your W\CI O1 now I'm organizing so they ain't going
to put you on work release, I'm going to rehabilitate, I have the authority
here; and he real--real--really made it a good prison camp. / JT f L
I: What happened .s uh, to Mr. Brooks? Did he, did he resign or
something? He's no longer here, is he?
B: Uh, Joe Brooks?
I: Uh-huh.
B: I don't know. This is the one we got now, ain't it?
?: Right.
B: Right. yeah, he saw me MJ' r." He saw me A14 1 .
I: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I wasn't C '"
B: Uh, really, you, you, you touched me a __- e_ _m__ig,--
p, y, ,y,-o- n- .
LUM 122A 27
I: .You looked a little uneasy there.
B: That's putting on the sweat over my brow. That's the cruelest place to sweat
you know.
I: Well, I'm certainly glad you think that much of him, and all the officers here
do seem to be so, and so understanding, and, and they want to help it seems.
B: One of the greatest things that I like him for--well I can say all of them--
that he walked through that camp and men respected him. Not that he is, is
hard, but he is a man.
I: Um-hum.
B: He'll tell you something--he'll do what he'll tell you, and all men recognize
him because of that. He, he, he, he is just the man for the job. I--he'll
stand up and walk with you. .
I: Sit down and counsel with you, won't he?
B: Sit down and where if you got a problem as I've seed the time that these men
have problems, you take a man and shut him up and he in love, and something
happen to his family, I've seed him go out into the homes and reach him and set
down and reason together and bring these families back--unite 'em together
again, and directly the inmate would be off the street and back with his family.
We don't have too many men. Now I've told you I've seen 'em all come and go.
But he's the greatest.
I: That's great. I'm certainly glad to hear you say that. Um, well I've certainly
enjoyed this Saturday with you, and I certainly want to wish you. .
B: It's been a great pleasure to. .
I: I wish you all he luck in the world, and, eTr, Y L an all6V
-nf-sa-yt I hope it won't be long before you'll be free, and you'll be
carrying that message on the outside and you can be bringing it back.
And I think you've been very kind and very helpful to sit with us and, and
LUM 122A 28
discuss these things, and, uh, you haven't shown any bitterness, or, uh,
you've tried to play it straight from the shoulder and be honest and square,
and, uh, I think everybody can appreciate that, and I--I'm certainly encouraged
to see that, uh, that the future is going forward as it is. I'll see what
I can do about, uh, some of these things, um, like you developed the, uh,
the American Friend Society)sort of die out. We want to keep it going. It's
a good thing and has been a good thing. A
B: God won't let a thing die out because we are coming outamsaag the curtain.
We got some education in us now and He's, uh, He's moving on out into--into
the field of the thing. He realizes now that He can have 'em in position,
and He's moving on out into the field. We are no more in darkness anymore, but
we have come i hI came a long ways, and I am grateful, and I am
happy to see a man like you, which ==c = "___ talk about, I don't
really know to be nice enough, to be helpful enough, to be gentleman enough
to work with our people like you working. I'm sure that you'll never be
forgotten in that. _0 always go down in history because you, from what
I can learn and the men that talks about quite a few of you, did, uh, you all
trying. You all working hard for our people and that's what we need; somebody
in the field to work. We got a revival running or anything like that and we
got men in there that want to get on down and work, God will come in and work
-t\w '-r1 .Cool I
with n, men when ae-everybody's-tld why He's with em.
I: Uh-huh. Well we do--we're trying to do what we can. We want to do a lot more
with God's help. .
B: With God?
I: with the courage required to that end, and h, uh, I know you have
Christians here in camp just like you -;--nI ra, and I do know that God
k\ ef, OesA f 7 2 jOt C/ and I do know that He loves you as He love
LUM 122A 29
all men, and I do, do know that He has his prayers, because He's answered
them for me. I probably wouldn't be here today if He hadn't.
B: That's true
I: Do you ? God has been wonderful to me in many ways. He's blessed me
in many ways, and I didn't deserve it. It wasn't because I deserved it. It
was--it was because Hejstr love, wR3 He loves you.
B: He loves you. That the greatest thing in the greatest of the land. We
was talking about rehabilitation. Faith without words (C? A
words without faith( ISOt C # #.so yo ac ompl h nothing. We say we
have faith and don't have the words. We just C ]ur S'S ,..*
That's what we're looking forward to. It's star--staring us in the face--in
the face. If you work with your faith, I'm sure God will be in it.
I: I'ld like to encourage you to go on with the work that you're doing, and, uh,
somebody's going to know about it. Above all God knows about it.
B: Amen.
I: .and maybe I could help bring this to the attention of some of the
people on the outside through the newspaper and things like this, and keep in
contact. Uh, maybe I'll be able to help in some small measure in this
direction. I--I certainly hope so.
B: We feel that OuT OhC )o me which he talks to me. I don't know why.
__ rather scared to talk to him myself. Did we all feel--
all these men--he asks me sometimes that how do the men feel about it. I
Vo k-WDtlA
would love for him my statement and how I would tell the outside world
how we feel about it.
I: Um-hum.
B: That is the greatest of all--to let him know that he's working hard himself.
I: Let him know you appreciate it and you're palA3-ng for him, and then he'll be
LUM 122A 30
able to work a little bit harder.
"B: Thre you Go. l
I: .h:teMtfthere's no telling what he can't accomplish.
B: That's the truth. So if he knew these things--like a foreman I used to work
under. I worked as hard as I could and that man would tell me, you're the
best worker, and, man, that made me work that much harder. But if he had
criticized, I'ld quit work. I ain't settling. So that's the way things
is going on in the world today, if one is doing a good job)helpig him.
I AtL brother, but we're living in a day and a time now that men would
take your testimony if he is possible if God gave you, instead of praying
and reaching out, asking God to give you one like it.
I: Right.
B: We're living in a \ vI 0 'Cff
I: the other person has. We only want what. .
B: What he's got.
I: Yeah. What--what he'll give us and what we can devote .God has given every
mana a\_____
B: I have many people that come by to visit and ask me one question. I got a
problem. Who am I to give him advice? But I am the man. But who am I to
give him advice?
I: So he's the one you come to--h -you're the one he comes to.
B: CI Aet me tell you something. You quit going to
the preacher. The same God saves the preacher saves you. If you have a
problem, go on down here out in them woods and talk to God as me and you are
talking. He'll give you the answer. Don't you do--if you do what the
preacher tell you to do, he'll f 1 0} '7 fCI
I: Well, he'll. .
LUM 122A 31
B: Don't go to a man. A man. .
I: .but He never fails.
B: He never fails. I went to him so many times, and He's never failed me.
You ain't gonna hurt. You ain't gonna die from it. Uh, I fk. k1i
in the last if I had a problem, I said, then you know what I'm gonna
tell you. You ain't never tried the first thing, I says, and when you go
home tomorrow I'm not going to give you none. When you-go home tomorrow,
get down there behind the hog pen there in the woods. Talk to God as me and
you--talk to God sincere. He'll give you the answer. He come back the next
day smiling. I could have told the man wrong, because I am not God.
I: Well He's, uh, He's always with us.
B: He'll hear a cry.
I: Right.
B: As long as it's from the heart. But, if it ain't in that heart there ain't
no good in talking to Him none.
I: And if we make excuses when we go to him, and we're not honest, then He--
He can tell. He knows.
B: He knows. Before yu know. .
I: -. Im always honest with Him. You get used to r _______ try to cover
up. You know, I can talk to Him just as you and I are talking and I'm satis-
fied that I'm being heard, and I can see the results of it.
B: Yeah.
I: So what gives me the courage towards it? God has not forgotten .you any ..
B: God never forgets me 'cause I always en--feel his presence, see his scenery.
You look out among the trees--even the trees bow to God. God's still alive.
I don't care what nobody tell me about God dead. I've seen him working every
day. When I look at you I look at God. I'm no fool about these things. When
LUM 122A 32
you get a fool, a man is a fool, you can't tell him nothing no how. But, you
see the presence of God in everything you do. Life still remains.
I: Right.
B: When God turns His'back on us, darkness covers all the land, because when His
son was hanging on that cross and gave up ld it turned dark from the
sixth to the ninth hour. God turned his back on the world--His son. All the
rocks ringing and the bodies rolled and went into the see, but when we had that
spirit to advocate with the Father between I and God, God's still alive, md-S
WthiaMMis shining all over presence of land.
I: Uh-huh.
B: And we still got a problem. We pray through Jesus Christ. We don't pray to
man anymore. So we see his presence every day, but to see his presence, you got
to want to see his presence.
I: Right.
B: If a man doesn't want to, he's not going to see God's presence.
I: h- UI[ kWWl Sv^c aC / /4rneA-s 6 -&k /4, k witrcii-
B: If He's a king, He must come.
I: Yeah.
B: You want--ever want me to go in a poor church, a poor sermon, everybody with
find suits on, and nobody gets down in honor of God? I didn't COA like
that no more. The Bible says shake the very dust off of your feet and leave
it in. Don't carry them on back here. God's ve7.g_-
I: Um. ..
B: God's spirit is just like a fire. You strike a match and hope it doesn't go
out. But if you lay it down there and begin to put more and more and more and
more on it, it reckons to get so hot you can't stay in this room, and you want
to tell people about God.
LUM 122A 33
I: Um-hum. .. )O J(
B: That's the way the spirit is.___ you want to tell people
about it. You got a little light and I can't see Y1 Cal V
I: Uh-huh. That's good. That's good. You're talking about something that I know
you've experienced, and have been--I can tell it. Uh, walking with God, even
here on this prison grounds, daily walking and daily talking with Him, this
will accomplish more than anything else in the world. God can reach the people
outside and inside.
B: I, I, I watch myself in, in a lot of ways. I made this statement last night.
I says, I ordered a Bible from Miss, um, I believe it was from Miss *
Clark. I says, I might even have the money to pay for it, I says, but, um, I
told him to order the Bible (?) and I'll pay for it today. And it's just God's
will and I say now it's God's will that you men help me, and whether you help
me or not, I'm going to get that !zU ) One of our friends' sister
4 P e CL& 07 V Chapel. I says, I intend to pay for that flower(?)
tomorrow, and they come across. I never failed. He never failed me. We have
some good men in there and that's the reason I love to get on and help them.
I'm the man that knows them, d Air 0ic amongst them, I sleep with them,
I eat with them. I'm the man--I wouldn't mind S g g got good
men in there--he's just a man that got caught.
I: Uh, well again I want to say thank you very much. This has been a very in-
spiring interview, and, uh, we'll be in touch with you, and, I praise God for
each of His blessings on you, and I want you to pray for me, too.
B: Yes. Thank you very much. Pray for all of us.
I: .Thank you so very much now.
B: Yes, sir.
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