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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 121A
June 14, 1973
Gary Sampson
Interviewer LGW Barton
Typed by Margaret Mittauer
B: This is June 14, 1973, I am Lou Barton interviewing for the University of
Florida's History Departments and the Doris Duke Foundations, American
Indian Oral History Program Today, we are near Lumber n, North Carolina,
at the North Carolina State Department of Corrections, ll/bJOcounty unit.
This is the fourth in a series of interviews with officers here and with
inmates. Today, Mr. Gary Sampson has kindly consented to give us an inter-
view and... that is right isn't Mr. Sampson?
S: Yes
B: And the last name is spelled S A M P S 0 N. Ah, we certainly appreciate this
opportunity.
LUM 121A
June 14, 1973
Gary Sampson
Interviewer LGW Barton
Typed by Margaret Mittauer
B1 Would you tell us what your position is with the prison?
Um, ah,
S; AI am a program assistance II here'that involves rehabillitative
treatment programing and planning for the adult inmate population
Um,
here.i\I have been with the department of corrections for about 13
months now. Ah, found it very challenging, very rewarding.
B; The one thing I admire about you very greatly, ^ '-I '.i V/01 A
that your enthusiasm for the program and for the work that you
are doing here and anybody with alot of enthusiasm is just bound to
do a great job.
S; Thank you. Um. There's *never a dull moment here and anyone like myself
who is interested in trying to bring about something positive and
ah,
constructive and try to improve. ThenAyou can't help but to go about it
enthusiastically, I don't see how anyone could go about it any other
way.
B; UH hah..:Are you a...are.you a-+tra Indian?
ah,
S; Um, let me answer you this way. On theAapplications that-me-all fill
out at various times when it comes to race I try to a, I just put
I,I,
an"H"in there for human. So\I try to get away from putting myself into
any particular category of race other than human. I try to think um
with a universal prospective.
that's,
Be Well,Athat's certainly commendable and I can understand that because ah,
with yhe, IL e-
although I am usually identified with theA4,ua in Indians, I would
like to be thought of as belonging to the human race. I think that is
LUM 121A
a commendable attitude.
S, Certainly we all do. I feel that the a... among the indians have a
heritage that if were more revealed about it, it would certainly be
something that we could all use to help identify ourselves. Self
identity, I see a great need for that and feel that if there were
some sort of tangible evidence of a Lumb-ia heritage, and this
would also apply to a black heritage, to a white heritage it would
ah, the
really help in developing the culture here.
B. Uh Hah.
Sl Self image.
Bt Of course your name is ah, I recognize immediately as a lost colony
name.
S; I understand it is English.
B. Right. English which means the English colony which, settled in 1587, and ah,
and this name was very prominent among those who came and it has also
been very prominent down through the years. We personally think this
is a great heritage. Though these people who came in 1587 were the
They,
first permanent English sett6lErs in America.hThey remained here
permanently. They never returned to England. There have been questions-
as to what has happened to them, but ah, of course)I conducted a study
over a period of eighteen years and I came toAconclusions of my own.
Other people have worked intimately with it and ah I believe that this is
which
something forA we can all be justly proud.
I've, ah, some of your
S; Ai've read someAof your findings on this and I do realize that other
people have their thoughts and theories too.
1
LUM 121A
B: Right.
S: It really doesn't seem to bother me thou which is which.OI m here
whether
whether I came about though a pure strain of indian background,
white background, or black background or a mixture of either it really
doesn't bother me. I'm here, I'm me.
B: Uh hah.
And ah, that I
S: If is important that Ifunderstand who I am what I can do and I
A1,
find myself now working with a group of men very much like any other
group of men in that they all seem to have the characteristics that
all human beings have.
B; Right.
S The're very talented, there creative, they have their negative points,
their positive points.
B: What is your marital status? Are you married?
S; No, I'm not. I'm single.
B; Would you mind telling us about your ... I didn't ask you your age yet?Bat
S; 23.
B; 23 that's great. I hope you will retain all that enthusiasism for your
work because that is a great aspectAad your obvious idealism, I think
this is something we need. We despretly need, because as we grow older we
we tend to become old folgies.
S. I have some thoughts on growing old. I feel that we can either mature or
age as we grow old, and I would prefer to mature.
B; Would youecare to give us your parents names?
S; My father is Earl OYc\O Sampson and my mother is Mildred Alice Sampson.
My father is the son ofS)eC t Baxton who was an educator. I never knew
LUM 121A
Northern
him he died before I was born. My mother is from theANorth Carolinam
Virginia line area. Her father died a couple of weeks ago.
B: Oh, I'm sorry.
S: I really never knew him either, but I met him through a host of
aTener when we went up to the funeral and I learned alot about my
heritage on that side, and I'm very proud of that also.
B: You certainly are.... ah let me see now what I didn't ask you. I get
so interested in you personally that I forget to insert these biographi-
cal facts. Of course me got your age in. You are a native of oA bso
S: Yes. Um when I was eight, eight years old my family moved to Baltimore,
Mayand and we were there for five years and then we moved back to
ndRsrand we have been here since. Of course, I've ventured away a
few times. I was in the Navy for...ah...let's see in 1969 I was in,I
entered the Navy and I took basic training in Orlando, Fla. and I
took some more training in Great Lakes,Illinois and then moved onto
Phillidelphia.Naval hospital were I was discharged from the Navy.
was
After my discharge I went to live with my godfather whoAan Episcopal
he ah,
priest. I met him while in the Navy andAhe provided quite an opportunity
for me to learn alot of things that I consider have been very important
in my,
in myiAmaturing and I was there working and living with father at St.
Elizabeth's Episcopal Church for about nine months. We worked with ,Ghetto
children and various people in the community. Then I came back home, ah,
sort of wondering what I would do with myself. I thought it best to
anA ah, as ah, rPwM
follow up my Navy trainingTas a Corpman medicalal so I worked
in the Southeastern General Hospital for just short of a year. I think
And ah,
it was about seven months.reqventually I worked my way into this position
LUM 121A
ah, ah,
John Harrison who was the superintendent here when I was hired,\was
good enough to think that I might could fit in here. So he was the
one who hired me. Now he has moved onto 'it Correctional
Center.
B: And I think he was very wise to, good judge of _LAi n.
S: I learned alot from him.
B: Of course that sort of explains, not entirely but in part your both
universal ... outlook(shall I say.
me
S: LetA say one thing that, that may not make too much sense unless ah
unless those who are listening really thought about it. I believe in all
things. I don't necessarily believe all things, that is, to say I think
there's something good to be gotten from everything.
B: Right.
S: So I just try to learn what I consider to be the good and can't throw out
the rest you know.
B: I:might point out in passing that'in apppearancgure ah... you could be
...you're pure caucasan in appearance.
S: And I've been thought of as Maxican, Spanish, and everything else.
with,
B; You haven't found your connection here witht\this area a disadvantage
have you?
S: No, I haven't. I find it, I find that I move in a very special way.
I am considered -ufftMl Indian by my peers here. Therefore, I can
move in places where other people from other places can't. And also,
when I'm away from here I can move as freely too. So I find it quite an
advantage
B: Yes.
LUM 121A
S, Ah. Let me just throw his in. I have a friend who,um, has been an
English professor at Pembrule, a Richard Ve(- )J He is from a similar
it's
type background, of courses s is kind of Spanish and caucasian mixture,
but he found that he could move in the same way I can and we've talked
about this alot of times. It's pretty interesting.
B; Now, in moving about that way youdrable to come in contact with many
truths of life that you might not have been able to come in contact with
otherwise.
Right and
S. A that is what I am interested in truth.
B: Right. I was over at a r_ College last wee A historical consul-
tant over there for a week end. This college is predominately black
with somewhite students and a few whitestudents and faculty. But I've,I
had one of the most rewarding weeks I have ever had. I throughly enjoyed
myself. I was stimulated ev(co c(f A', and this is the sort of thing
I'd like to, um... I want to broaOden my spectrum of intellectual activity,
I..
physical activity too for that matter. At the same time'lIhave to be in-
terested, I am interested in the place where I spent most of my life. Um,
I've always said that I would have been a writer no matter where I'd been born,
but I was very fortunate in that I was born in an area
where therewas suc abundanI material. So many materials to
write about, i to explore and so forth.
S: I have a special afffinity for this area and a I've done more than just
accept it. I've tried to find out why because I've met other people from
other places who- have the same affinity for the places that they were
born.
LUM 121A
Bi Uh. Hah.
Si And that makes me think there must be some reason for that.
So I've gotten into all kinds of a studies.. .anything fromlastrological
vibrations to um human ___ All sorts of things like this that could
account for the affinity. Notice the place of my birth a ...
B; Right.
S; ...a, the familiar surroundings, the vibrations there which would be a part
of me which would be a part of me.
B; Right.
S; Which would make me long for that place no matter where else, where
else I might be.
B; Um. S!iZmn-Floyd once said, Dr. SiAdmtan-Tyd, that there is in each of us
a desire to return to the the place from which we came. And
I suppose this is probably true of um... of our relatives. In the
6; r-,
firs*-place or the place we've lived or we identify with perhaps.
S" Um. Maybe the boundaries of the tJiob can be extended
B; Right. That is extending it quite abit I think, but perhaps this holds
true. Ah, there does seem to be a special affinity between people who
have lived here, and particularly in what I would think of as the
L'EffLTtRiver Valley. Ah, which is a unique valley, ah, at one time
was very unique because it was and it still is entirely surrounded by
swamps and at one time in our past those were almost completely g$Wt1t a
So we did have the inflax of a few different groups, and people came
here because this was sort of a hide away valley) You know. A place of
refuge,and ah, I sort of personally feeltthat it is still a place of
refuge because ah sometimes people come in from other areas, other ethic
groups and, and they stay here for a while and they find the same sort of
LUM 121A
feeling. Although we certainly have many problems. Ah, but there
seems to be a human denominator here. I hope I'm not exaggerating or
over simplifying or anything like this. But there seems to be a...a...
humanist or humanest here that you don't quite find elsewhere. Have you found
this to be?
S, I've observed um,something for,ah,I can't say many years, for well
many years to me. Since I've lived here I have noticed that people
who go away to northern states or where ever, always seem to gravitate
back.
B: um. Hah.
S: And you know, that's always amaged me. Of course I really didn't give
to much significance to it, because for all I knew it could be that
way in any area.
B: Uh. Hah.
S: You know, Persons always gravitated back, and I've observed the people
coming from outside here who stay.
B: Uh. Hah.
S: And I've even observed those who complain'quite abit while they are
here, but yet they stay. (laugh)
B: Right. Even with all the problems...
S: Right.
B: ....and with the obvious disadvantages because this is a depressed area,
we can't deny that.
S: And I've come to the conclusion that maybe this is some what of a melting
pot this that you are talking about or or that accounts for
pot;or this hnmantst that you are talking about or, or that accounts for
LUM 121A
ah
the buman-st. Well, either way, ah people doAcome together here
from all different walks of life. Just last summer I, I met and ah
ah
fell in love, datedAa Jewish girl from Penns.
B: Ov r{
S: She was just down here for the summer. That was quite an experience.
People come here from all sorts of places.
B: Do you think perhaps the exottic quality, I'll put exotic in quotation
marks, that ah this has bee said of areas. For example, I was talking
to the city editor of the Gr eenitaro Daily News several ah months
ago about my book, and he asked me what did I consider made it successful?
And I said, well I don't know. I would like to ask you that question?
He said you liked it, had you read it, and you liked it? And I said
I would like to have something for you... from you.And he said, well,
it's...it's an exotic book by an exotic author about an exotic people.
AnhlI sort of laughed. I said,'well, I never thought of myself as an
exotic. He said well, no body does but other people do. Do you think
maybe this...this has something to do with the attraction for others?
Si I think it might, ah, t.., -hmystery involvedd with...ah...ah...would
it be defending from a lost colony, you know.
B; Um. Hah.
S; Ah. People are attracted by mysteries. Ah,it has, it has its advantages
in that....ah...it does have, it does create an attraction, but it has
disadvantages in that it doesn't provide an identity for people who
a need one, and who haven't found one within themselves, who
ah
have toclinge to something tangible from the past.
LUM 121A
B: UH. Hah. Does...this is very interesting for several reasons, this
interview is interesting because you have these points of comparison
and you've lived in other areas, in Baltimore particularly, where
several thousands of our people migrate since World War II. For
example, I remember that I went over to Baltimore and lived on
Baltimore streets for a short while prior to World War II. And at
that time the only three people from this area that we regard as
indians were myself and two others. And those where the only three
Stret ah
people there, and today Baltimore sf they tell me isApractically
inhabited almost entirely by indian people.
S: Something that you might find interesting, the ah...the route and
escapee takes seems to take him either from here to Baltimore or
from here to Florida or from here to ah....two or three...ah...
other areas, maybe Virginia...ah...one man went down to Louisiana.
But the main...the main path seems to be from here to Baltimore or
from here to Florida, and I guess it's because of so:many of them...
people from here migrated there. But it's...
B: We have some...few people in Detroit I don't know how many. Ah... we'
have some in Greensboro, ah...who have been there within recent years
and I suppose the need for their opportunities...ah...in the field of
employment accounts for some of this.
S: Let me clairify myself when I...ah...maybe I didn't make myself very clear
when I said it, after an escape I mean when a man escapes from this
prison.
B: Uh. Hah.
LUM 121A
S: You know. That's where he goes.
B: Right.
verv
S: It's notA smart, because...
B: Uh. Hah.
it's is ah,
S: Ahthe grapevine is ahthe very thing that brings him back.
B: Right.
S: You know.
B:. I...I was... sorry I missed your reference with...reference to to the
inmates or to the escapee. This is very interesting, it's interesting
indeed.
S: There again are those strong ties,you see.
B. Uh. Hah.
S: To be with ah,to be with his own people.
B: Yes, because ah thisRSO is predominately Idian.
S: Right.
ah
B: And, ah...ah somebody was telling meAyesterday. He said well this is one
of the few things, about the only thing we've been able to hold onto.
ah
But ah I'm happy for this because I believe everybody has a right to
his own identity, Ah... whatever that identity happens to be and if that
identity happens to include two races, or three, or four...ah, so be it,
/1
you know. Ah, it's sometimes like Wil Rogers I say well I can take pride
in the fact that ...ah... when my ancestors came from across the Atlantic
they found others of my ancestors waiting here to greet them. And actually,
POreffike
(laugh) this is what happened on Island in North Carolina. The text
books might say Virginia, because it was Virginia at that time, But this
is what actually happened when many of those people got together and
greeted the first white people over here, um actually &a, ah, welcomes
LUM 121A
m'A Ah, this is a matter of historical record if not tradition.
Although I'm interested in traditions too, I've tried to make a clear
ah
cut distinction between what is..kwhat is on record and what is
traditional. But the fascinatiingthings in this long story ...ah...
mysterious story..'. is-that ah, the traditions always apprat the
historical atr and vise versa. And ah, we have a which was
sent up by a lady just a couple weeks ago cale e r/ ______Heritage)
ah,
Mrs. Eidth Shepherd-, and ah, she has devotedAan entire
section of your te4&e to ...ah, traditions that I've pasted onto her.She...
?
In other words, she gave Lou Bardom a section and then she went over to
tuscC rr^ Im al f// P
th t r Camp in New York where she entered I4/ C
Anderson Anderson. And his traditions, the traditions of the
PvlrkG R ^ s ... coincide exactly with ours. .a.* .concerning the
Lost Colony which they refer to t.. according to whd is their
traditionalist, a very well educated man, by the way7 ftd ____che
coI,1i4c BcAr CIn ,
p7easL'r-aLtyf. you know. And this is very interesting to me when...when
historical facts and tradition coincide especially where you have it
course
reinforced by ah the traditions of two widely separated .people. OfA the
Sf -rO-er 4a originally of North of South East of North Carolina, so
naturally their interest in the area continued even after they migrated to
10 rCi FAlls T
N4isqpefa s, New York. This happened many years ago, in:. the f-wTfffrrA
War,for example, occurred 1711-1713, right in that area. And they'd been
gone since shortly there after, and yet those traditions are still alive 4
this fascinates me because we haven't had all that much contact with
IPA you know.
LUM 121A
S: I can see how that ah, that would. Um I'm glad that...the tradition
does support the history. Ah, that allows you to...ah...ah, that at
least gives you the feeling that you are on the right track, you know.
Um, I'm kind of like Harry ReCSO(C in that ah, I don't like to be...
what is it labeled to a place wherei'f people ah, who are labeled
it's
because it's prob..Aprobable that I wouldn't hold all of their views.
B: Right.
S: So um, ah, ah, because of that I guess I...I would hope that we could
get,that we could climb above ah, racial identity and recognize an
identity that is alot purer than that or maybe more ah, ah, I don't
knowmore valid, ah... Sometimes I, it's difficult for me to even
express myrsat feelings, um but ah, these things that I would hope
we could, we would climb to our universal feelings ah things of love
and ah, ah compassion, understanding ah. We would climb to a level,
to a height where we could see ah, people as individuals, and not
have to rely on ah racial identity. Something I found very interesting
a few months back at ah, ah community seminars um For a time I had
been asking myself why, why, whyis it necessary that in Black schools
we teach black ah, we have to do things in a black way, or in ndian
schools we have to do things in an ndian way, or white schools-in a
white way. Um, and there was a lady there who had a little booklet,
ah
I think it must have been forEfirst, second, or third graders. And the
little
beginning of the book started with"I am black", and it showed ahpicture
of a little black person, ah...and then, ah...I have a big black brother,
a picture of a big black brother with the little child standing beside
him. And ah, my family is very proud of being black. And ah, picture of
LUM 121A
the family around the table and it moved right on w the
book like this and finally toward the back ah... the conclusion seemed
to be that ah, it's alright to be black. And from that I learned that
maybe people, some people, have to realize that it's OK to be what they
are .
B: Right.
and,
S: AndAonce they realize that, they can...they can realize something greater.
Ah, ah, what, that what they are is...
B: \c C'2. think of anything else.
S: Right. But first they have to realize The're black and that it's OK to be
black. And then that there human, or same way with dian or anything
else. Lt ,
B: Well, that's exactly how I feel about te _n--tedhe' dian which is
why ah, I've always tried to encourage pride in our local peoplebeeatise
the' CV'- ndians or eaTre no dians at all, cause anything and.I-don't
worry a darn bit about the names. And some of our people are always
S AA I about names, and to me this one of the most insignificant thing
about our existence. But the fact is 3 ah...we do exist ah...we are
...ah...sort of a I whether we have placed ourselves there or whether
we've been placed there by others, we are sort of a Ah, we have
certain things to distinguish us, even are language. Ah, we have a
language which is different from that of the blacks in this area, that
of the whites in this area. Un, we have our own, ah, dialect, we have
ah..ah, sort of, sort of a... list of.,.a long list of patterns ah...
patterns really.
LUM121A
ah,
S: I can appreciate what you are doing,Ajust as I could appreciate what a
black historian or a white historian would be doing, because I feel
that you and ah...ah...others like yourself are helping to um, maybe
rediscover what a person is, so that they can then realize that it is
OK to be that and then move on to better things, ah,or to greater things
or,...ah...I think we should all remember thou that ah, we can call
something many names but it still remains what it is.
B: Right.
S: You know, and like you say we do get hung up on alot of different names
and things and the same ole song, what is it,the same ole song with just
a different melody?
B: Right.
S: Um.
B: I had an opportunity to sppak before,ah, the Office of EconQmic*
Opportunity and- ei-gn Civil Rights Commission and so on. I said it
doesn't matter whether we're different racially or not in the ethnic
sense, even if we were not we do comprise a distinct community. And,
ah...therefore we have a right to operate as a community. So in that,
in
that interpretation we were able to.get funding for certain things for
LRDA, imbWan Regional Development Association. Ah, on this legal dis-
tinction there's not,not as a race, and not from the racial standpoint
Ltf cittC-t-, It operates and has for centuries operated as a
distinct community, and I'd like to think of it as ah...ah...T.umb4n
River Valley because it is a unique valley as I said awhile ago.And ah,
ah I think this sort of...ah...gives us an outline for it. You could
call it anything else which would do just as well. But ah, it's so, it's
LUM 121A
always been fascinating to me that we had existed at all. Ah, in that
we have had this cohesiveness.This kind of ah...maybe this is good or bad
I don't know which ah this sort of clanishness, that people have often
asked me about and ah, my thought was that we stick together simply
because of planned perfection or the fact that ah, you feel more com-
fortable when you have people...to whom you can identify if you have
a problem or if there is a threat from outside or this sort of thing.
S: This,this...this brings to mind a thought can you just imagiriwhat it
may have been like when some of the first white settlers intermingled
"it's
or intermarried with ah, some of the ndians here. Ah, it'sAconceivable
that neither the whites nor the Idians would accept thenion.
B: Right.
S: Or the offspring from the union, and ah as more and more of this came
about ah, I can see why ah, those of that kind, the mixture would tend
to come together ah out of nothing more than acceptance eoa
B: Yes, I have considered thatI've thought about that ah, and I think
this is one of the things that kept ah, the people together, together
ah
down through thespsyears, sometimes terrible years. When it waslvery
difficult to exist, a little group of Indians was not to
large its self. They had eighty fighting men. AH...ah it's recently
seventeen hundred men, ah...ah it's not very recent in our eeB dng -
today, but in...in terms of National Histroy, History of the Indians
ah
it is. ButAthey had just eighty fighting men then and to call them
it's only about a hundred and twenty, thirty, forty people. Ah those two
groups, groups needed each other, and they came together and
exchanged ideas, helped each other and ah the fact that they survived
LUM 121A
at all in a hostile wilderness. Ah,well there was hostility from
both camps and they were caught right in the middle from the colonist
and also from, from mostl'dian groups, because lets face it ah,
as I
indian people can beAprejudicaeas anybody else. (laugh) And unfor-
t#dc4 oour
tunately often are. And I've oftenctae4d-c--e. people about this.
And it's a condition that doesn't make me happy at all, but it's a
condition that I have to recognize,and live with,and work with because
it is a fact, ah you know. I wish we were more liberal toward black
people,for example. I wish that...
S:. I thought that all men were more liberal toward others. (laugh)
B: Right.
S: Ah, this is the beauty of...of a universal view, you can...you can see
that, that there is a more basic demcriAat=-than race.
B: Right.
S: That, that things such as hatred and, and ah prejudice, and ah love,
ah, are common to all men.
B: Right .
S: It's not just a racial thing.
B: This is really the, the great difference.
S: This is why I can not fight on one particular band wagon, you know.
I can't fight ah,ah strictly for idians as anjndian, any more than
for
I could fight strictly A- blacks as a black if I were black, or whites
as a white if I were white. I just feel that I have to ah,I have to be
a human being and try to fight if if that's the right word for ah love
as opposed to hatred, for knowledge as opposed to ignorance, no matter
where I am or whom I'm with.
B: Right. Because sometimes one group can be right and sometimes another
LUM 121A
one can be right or wrong or just as an individual can.
S: Sometimes, like you say though-two groups could be right yet express
it differently...
B: Right.
S: ... and both be wrong, because they've fail,failed to recognize the
original ahthe basis of what they were trying to do.
B: I've tried to define...define human prejudice and I do call it human
prejudice, because no race is ah, excluded ah, all races just as all the
individuals are more or less prejudice, maybe in different directions
and about different things. But we are all prejudicetIto a certain
extent, and...it grieves me to have to admit this but I've found it to
be true. And sometimes when I make a general statementlrvr-"or\over-
generalization I get criticized a little bit.For example, several weeks
ago in. in a local newspaper ah, I came out with a pretty blatant state-
ment deliberately) because I wanted to provoke responses to see how
people felt about this. And I say well now I've seldom come into contact
with a white person who didn't feel superior to an ndian person. Ah,
(laugh) and ah,of course some people took issue with me and I was glad
that they did. Ah, but actually somebody might interpret that as meaning
that L-B-? is prejudicefagainst white people which is the farthest
thing in the world from my mind and my heart. Ah, one of the persons
dearest to me in this world is white. Ah, as .a matter of fact several
of the persons dearest to my heart are white. I have white members in
my own-family: I have,ah,white brothers-in-law, I have white sons-in-law,
and so on. Ah, I couldn't possibly be prejudice(against white people
but sometimes you have to Aqke these distinctions, and people are always
LUM 121A
now V rC
wonderingkwhere in the hell is he now. Ah, he's always between
whites and indians or blacks. And I just don't see that at all I, I'm
sort of like you, I try to follow what I think is right and act along
those lines. L I
S: I...The thing that amazes me is how any ah,Lkmbiran Indian.could consider
himself Jndian as opposed to white, because according to your findings,
historical findings, your theory, and ah the other findings and theories
that back this up. Ah, tmbdan Indian in itself is not a pure indian
strain.
B: No, it never has been.
S: My goodness it's, it's a..:.a mixture.
B: Since the earliest days.
S: Uh, hah.
and
B: And the amaze, them...the amazing,Aamusing thing that occurred, you
know in 1958, for example, when the Klu-Klux Klan came over here, took
one look at us and, and instantly concluded that we'd been race mixing
like wild and they ought to do something about it. They immediately
preceded to start condemning-us and they were going to teach us a lesson
we'd never forget and all that. Fortunately, they got taught a lesson.
They (laugh)
s: C(___i___
B: But, ah, this was amusing to me, because to white person in this area
would have felt that way because ah, they knew that this was the thing that
had been happening since before the first white, permanent white
settlements were made in this area and they know this. And they accept it
whether there happy about it is another question. But they do accept it,
LUM 121A
they know this is true, and every time they see somebody ah, with a
red hair they don't immediately conclude that there has been alot of race
mixing going on.
S: Let me throw out another ha...let me throw out another ah universal
ah
observation. Ah, well, first of all there is one, one reallyAbasic thing
I, I will always remember. I think it was an inscription carved on ah,ah,
temple ah, way back in the Roman or Greek times I...I need to really find
out the exact date and place. But any way I think it says something like
"all things in moderation or moderation fall things". This means alot
to mg because I can use this as ah, ah, rule and then I can look about
me and I can see that there are extremes.
B: Right.
S: Ah, at either end of the ah, what spectrum or continuumV I see the ah,
the ah, Klu Klux Klan, I see the black militant, I see the different
wt po etr-t-
factions within the indian groups wer-either militant or ah,
another way. Ah, there are all sorts of extremes. I think we not only
have to maintain moderation as individuals but also as groups. And I
think if we fail to .do this we're going to run into the problem that
exist that-eitherAin-the extremely UtmC Um. I think,I believe
strongly that the whole is made up of the sum of its parts. And since I
do believe in that I'll start with me, ah as far as any move toward
for
improvement A anything. I'll start with self, me. I have to know me,
I
and I have to,Ahave to love me before I can know or love anyone else.
I feel that very strongly. And I feel that is a, a constructive type of
selfishness. And I,I don't believe all selfishness is bad. Ah, naturally
you have the destructive type of selfishness were you, were you ah, ah,
as opposed to everyone else, and,and you walk all over everyone for you.
LUM 121A
B: Right.
S: But, I do believe in a constructive selfishness, were we love ourselves,
know ourselves, so we can love and know others. I use that principle
if
here, Ah, since I've been working here at the prison. Ah,Aif I run into
it's
a conflict with someone I feel that, thatAit's very logical that I have
as much to do with that conflict as that other person. So I jump right
into myself and find out what I might need to change to bring about ah,
ah, greater understanding with that other individual. Sometimes I find
that it's that other individual, and that maybe my fault is that I just
ah
don't quiteAunderstand him or know how to deal with that kind of indi-
vidual. Other times I might find that it is a personal, a personal
Lj f k
flaw wiAthmyself. If I can get that straight then I can approach him.
Ah, these are basics I guess that could be used any where in dealing
with anybody. I know...
B: This is so true when I point my finger at somebody, the thumb points
some errorings in my own direction.
S: (laugh) Right. That's good. I, I consider that filed away in my computer
bank. (laugh) I'll use that again....you know...that's good...
B: This is certainly encouraging to meet someone of ah, ah your caliber
and ah, this is what we need. We, we need ah, people who can think
logically and not only in relation to one group or one individual but
in relation to all. Ah, and yet at the same time we have to realize that
we're living ah...I have to realize that I live here in the Indian com-
munity, I've been a part of it, ah it's sort of adopted me ah, even when
I was-9< -: well I've been pretty far out pretty often. And ah, at times
I've...
well I don't know I might get excommunicated or something.(laugh)
LUM 121A
_- '. But ah, usually they receive me back with grace. They may ah,
disagree with me at times ah... They may mistrust me at times, but
usually,they trust me, but it's, it's something that's taken years
and years, and I wish with all my heart I could make people see and know
that in my heart I'm like you. I feel exactly as you do um... The only
difference is ah, in the relationships that I've had to deal with over
the years. I,I doubt it. Do you know what I'm trying to say?
ah
S: Yes,Awe all have our different ah callings I think. Ah, I think we each
do what we want to do or what we feel we must do. I think you ... are
providing ah, what it is that you are suppose to provide. Ah, perhaps you're
a symbol to the ndian. poeple, thefc4tn Indian people for all
such
that which isAa mystery. Ah, you are something tangible. Ah, I, I would
not... I would not even want to say you're not doing what you're sup-
pose to be doing,or that any other man is not doing um. And I feel the same
way about myself. I do what I want to when I feel that I must.
B: Right.
S: Um... I've had, I've had Lumbian Indians approach me and wonder what
they're questioning why I haven't joined this particular movement or
that particular movement, ah, this cause or that. I guess it's because
I don't...want to be like Harry RefA& lI don't want to be ah, labeled.
B: Right.
S: I feel I can do the good that I would do...ah, if I move the way I move.
and I think that's my choice and no one elses.
B: Of course it's very difficult not to be (laugh) labeled. Ah, what I have
a fear of is ....
B: Mr. Sampson I believe we were saying when we were interrupted by the end
LUM 21A
of the tape, I was saying something about my fear of being misunderstood
in expression and ah, I fear this above all things I think because I
realize that people have been _simply because they were misunder-
stood.
S: I'm very conscience of this too, just in my dealings with people and you
could see how it would be ah, ah, dangerous to be misunderstood by a man
behind ah, ah, fence or behind bars.
B: Right.
S: Um. That's- why I put alot of emphasis on trying to express myself ah,
exactly the way I want myself to come across. Of course, you can't
always do that and ah, I've spent alot of time many ah, hours at the
fence or inside the fence talking with individuals who ah, didn't take
ah,
me the way I wanted to come across, VeryAemotionally upset individuals.
So...
ah
B: Do you spend time with people,Amore time than you would ordinarily, I'm
sure, than you have to actually? Ah, because of this very thing3you do
want to be understood by those you are working with.
um.
S: Yes, yes. Um,AI find that ah, one of the major problems we have at an
institution, such as this, is ah, our communication. It's ah, it causes
alot of problems, ah, sometimes we get ah, mischanneled, ah, channels
get crossed, ah, in other words what is intended just does not get
through and then time has to be spent in trying to correct them.
B: Yes, and this is, this is the difficulty faced by even Presidents of the
United States. For example, ah, ah, President Lyndon Johnson who re...
who just resigned from politics simply because he couldn't get across to
the people perhaps. Perhaps, this was the biggest thing.
LUM 121A
S: I,I think sometimes, sometimes, circumstances make it, ah, more diffi-
cult ah, at times than at other times to get across what we mean, just
the very external circumstances...ah...ah...I try to approach things
in an organized way, especially here. Of course, I, I think this is
the way
kind of a basic thing with me just ah, as far asAI try to live my life,
in an organized way. I feel that the universe is ordered and I feel
that if ah, if...I feel that ah, creation is ordered. I feel that since
man is the only thing that or the only creature that, that has free will
and can choose to order or (laugh) or to live in order or disorder,
harmony or disharmony. Ah, I feel that if man would recognize thathe
ordered his life ah, then things would be much more in keeping with...
with what the entire universe seems to be presenting. I think I'm
getting a little wordy here. Um. (laugh)
B: That's alright. Um.
S: Let's see, we just, getting, breaking down to ah, getting back to right
Ah,
here at, at the prison.AI try to, to organize things, so that they are
carried out simply, efficiently, and that there is-less room for mistakes
or ah, ah, confusion, misunderstanding. This is no place for confusion
and misunderstanding, because there's enough tention, enough stress
here as it is. Ah...ah...maybe this is a good time to get into some of
the thoughts I had last night about men in prison and men out of prison.
Ah...one thought that came to my mind was an idea for a cartoon even.
Ah, I, I don't know how effective, effective this would be, but still
this was my thought. Ah, I, I think it would...that the picture would
..could be a lion ah in a cage approached by another lion outside. And
the two of them could be wondering how are we different, When it is so
obvious that they are very mush alike. Um, I think that cartoon could
LUM 121A
work up effectively. But getting back to the, the reality man in prison
and man out of prison. There is a stigma attached to being behind bars,
to being in prison. And there is a stigma attached to-being ah, out of
prison, looking 'C those who are in. Um, one of my efforts here, I
ah
think is to try and break down the barriers betweenAthe community.
The very community from which the man in prison came. Ah, but yet the
same community that rejects him.
B: Right.
if
S: Either during his time of prison or when he gets out. Ah,Awe can break
down those barriers, ah, things would be much better. I think they can
be broken down ah, the same way that ah, racial barriers have been
broken down in, in sociological ah, studies. Ah, I recall something 1,
ah,
ah, I heard in&sociological class where, where there was a test done ah,
with some whites and blacks. And I think ah, by mixing the group,
that ah,
mixing the two groups ah, they found thatAthere was less prejudice after
a time ah, as opposed to the two groups that were kept separate after
the same period of time. They still had the same prejudicedfeelings,
where as the group that was mixed did:not. So I think that if we can
get,.bring about more contact between the community and the men in prison
we can break down some of the barrier and this is a part of my job.
And I do this through ah, JC activity, JC efforts. We have an institutional
JC chapter here, the Triangle JC's. They've grown quite abit since I've
been here. Um, right now we are ah, considering ah, ah, a project to help
along these lines of breaking down barriers. We're going to purchase a
sr:.' ,ah,
movey cameraand ah, sme. some of our activities. There sArecreational
activities, ah, ah, working activities. We're going to really put what
we are here on film. And thenwe' re going to approach the various JC
we are here on film. And then A going to approach the various JC
LUM 121A
chapters and this kind of film could be used in other gatherings too.
We're going to approach the JC chapters ah, primarily ah, to show
them what we are. So that, ah, alot of the unknowing, you know the
cloud of-un-..unknowing is ah, lifted...ah, from, from their eyes,
and they might offer more support in our activities.
B: Right.
in,
S: Because up, up to now we've had difficulty ingetting things like
sponsorship, volunteer sponsorship, which I feel that JC ah,outside
JC chapters could provide as a project, to help the men in the JC
chapter here get out more and, and ah, be more productive.
B: Well, if we can help in any way as, as a Caqrqlina Iyndian. spic or
in any of the other papers ah, IC to get across, to help you to get
across to the people, ah count us in your C please.
S: Thank you very much.
B: Maybe this will help, maybe this will help some too ah,because copies
of this study will be sent back to Pembr roG State University, and
ah, distributed to other universities andthi ^' will be made
available to the public. And I'm sure that ah, 'it will be widly used
by newsmen. I for one of them ah, it's, it's a very broad program.
on
I've been working on it ahAmy little part of it for just about a year
now, I think.
S: Ah, this makes me think of, of something I have knowledge of um, it's a
little thing called Project Heritage, and it's, it's the brain child of
Professor Jeff Gorden. Um, he's ah Geog...Geography and ah, ah, Anthro-
pology Professor at Pembr-cC I think he'll be leaving after this
summer. Any way I've seen this proposal he has drawn up and I wish your
LUM 121A
people could get a hold of it and do something with it. It's the kind
of proposal that would work best ah, if channeled through a university
setting. And I, of all the things I've heard, and read, this could be
the very thing that is needed to help ah, create that self identity
that the people in this area seem to lack.
B: Right.
S: Ah, the person who doesn't know who he is, ah, probably won't know
where he's going, and ah...
B: ...or where he's been.
S: Right. Or where he's been.
B: Ah, do you find the people in this area to be very individualistic,
very d Kery V_ '' and so on.
S: Ah...ah, I find people here to conform. Ah, I find that they conform like
other people in other places.
B: Is that right? I'm glad to hear that, because living here so long I've
...I've had times to ah, 4_ when I considered ourselves ah, so
divided and so ah,...not just divided but fragmented that I & /&
to
I was worried as to whether we'd be able to4accomplish anything. You
have to have some unity in order to even carry on the days activities.
S: I think folks talk alot-aboutbeing individualistic, and being different
and all that, but ah, they all seem to jki ed up in the same part. And
if you're really going to be different ah,...I think you have to ...
stay away from conforming so much.
B: And that's one of the hard things to do. I've always agreed with that,
this, this is one thing I,I ah, I guess I view this community as being
different more than you do, because a, gesou don't see it as being all
S2q
LUM 121A
be
that different I don't think. But ah, it would ahngreat to me if
every American community were ah, more individualistic, more distinct,
more... If=yoa- ,every community, as every human being is, and as
every family is ah, ah cause...God has made no two things exactly alike,
not even identical twins or the proverbial P/ or... So long as things
are different and, and I believe this adds color, it adds variety, and
ah,...and it...I believe there is room for constructive...ah, differ-
ence of opinion ah, differences of every thing.
S: I, I think it's easy to recognize how we're different. Like other
people all over the world recognize instantly how they're different.
I think it's a little more difficult to realize how, how we're alike,
ah,
and since being different seems to...ah,...bring about so manyAbarriers.
Ah, I think we should place more emphasis on realizing how we're alike.
B: But it this not a form of conformity. Is...is'nt this too much conformity?
S: I...I don't know. It seems the majority of folks would rather realize
I
how...how were different. They take great pride in...in...in ah, empha-
sizing differences. I'm probably contradicting myself, but ah, that's
how we sibian's work.:Ah, we...we...it takes a while for the scales to
balance, so you just have to put up the ah, contradictions.
B: And just about everything has its contradictions ah, I mean ah, it's
we...
very difficult to say that one thing absolutely true about anything, but
maybe mathematical truth, we could say that two...two people's voice.
But as far as to say that about anything else with absolute...
S: I wrote a thought, I wrote a thought down on once.There is only one
thing absolute., that is...there is nothing absolute.(laugh) Therefore,
ah... by its very, by its very nature there .s no absolute.
30
LUM 121A
B: This reminds me of...somebody's quotation "All I know is that I know
nothing". (laugh) You know.
S: Yes.
B: Ah... I've, I've said that about myself many times. Ah, I've gone to
God in,'_.__ l say Lord ah why would you let-me-do.-.these_
-things-- i iv "' iI: or even allow it. I...I don't know what I am
doing here, you've got to help me. Ah, and fortunately he does. ...
Ah, but, I think the only person who doesn't make any mistakes is the
person who doesn't do anything at all.
S: Right. ... I feel that way too.
ah,
B: You're certainly doing commendabletwork here, and ah... could you tell
us more about ah... you know, the nature of the work you're doing
in trying to build ah "' r( between the ah, surrounding com-
munities and, and the prison camp in general .
S: Yea, um, I think it's trying to bring about a.humanrist. Ah, this is...
this is not something I'm starting. This...this is just something I'm
trying to get in on. It...it has been going on for a long time I un-
derstand. Um, it...it's of course been ah...marked by..,.the ah...unbuckl-
JCY] -e )C a'h,
ing of the, what is it the fallen chain, the Andcnow at the end
of this month I think it is, we're bringing the men off the road. Ah,
ah,
men who work undeiAmandatory labor, forced labor if you want to call it
that, ...that's going to end.,...more humanist. Ah, we're...we're trying
to, to...make it known that the people in prison are the same people
that came from the community.
B: Right.
S: OK. And, and for some reason, probably reasons that,that ah,... that
31
LUM 121A
existed, ah...from birth to age five during these individuals lives,
you know. For these kind of reasons that...that ah, we don't under-
stand wholly or, or that some of us don't even recognize. These people
did what they did, left the community and got into prison. Now what
are we going to do with them? Ah,I...I think it is, it is our respon-
sibility, we who are not in prison,to provide the kind of environment
where by a man can change. Can change if he chooses. We can't make any-
one do anything.
B: Right.
S: But, we can provide the environment...um, I like to, compare it to,
ah... soil and seeds. If you place a good seed in, in bad .soil, it's,
it's not going to grow properly. If you place, if you place a ah, ah,
good seed in good soil it will, ah most likely.
B: Right.
S: OK. um. Many of the men in prison are considered bad seeds. Ah, but
lots of times, lots of times we can ah, we can put a bad seed in good
soil and it might just make it...it might not, but its chances are
certainly better than if we placed the had seed in bad soil.
B: Right.
S: Ah.
B: Well,'I've-been aware of the constructive changes taking place in the
state with ah, relation to prisons and even I reforms ah, for a
number of years, and... I'm very proud of the fact that our state is
a ley'out frmn_--t__...
S: They were...
B: And, and I think C_ t s_ very wise to have someone like you on
32
LUM 121A
the team. I...ah, this encourages me, because I think you, ah... you
sort of exemplify.
S: I think we went backwards when, when...ah, the death penalty was
brought back into action, because getting back to my thoughts on
a
providing the kind of environment where byAman can change. Ah,... if
we provide that kind of environment we hare done our part, I feel.
Where as if we don't provide the environment ah, I think we should be
behind bars. We are just as criminal ah,...how...what are we doing if
we take a man's life, you know, by, with the death penalty. What good
are we, were, were we accomplishing? Ah, my goodness a man will die of
his own. What, what good are we doing by, by taking his life. Ah, I'm
not condoning any, the murders, the rapes, the ah, the ah, grand larceny,
or, robbery whatever it is., Ah whatever those things are that, that
would bring about the death penalty. But I am saying that if we are
not to assume the guilt that is involved in these types of crimes,
be to
these kinds of actions, ah we had better just let our actionsAprovide
the environment, so that the man can change if he will, if he will.
If he won't, then at least we've provided the environment. He'll die
of his own in good time.
B: Right. And at least our hands will be clean.
I...
S: Yea.AI think we are just compounding the guilt, the ah, the crime with
this death penalty business. I just can not see it.
B: Well, I...agree with you there. I...I centainly...I th ik adding murder
to murder doesn't solve anything.
S: Right.
B: And ah, the people I've been in contact with that have been guilty of
33
LUM 121A
murder, ah, didn't seem any worse to me than people who hadn't.And ah
I was listening to some remarks made on television, on television
programs a-few months ago and ah, ah somebody on the show said to a
a
psychiatrist ah, why don't we learn ways of detectingApotential
murderer and shut them up and protect society too. And this, this
psychiatrist gave a very surprising answer.He said,"ah, well, every-
one is a potential murderer. You'd have to, you'd have to the
total population.
S: That's right.
that
B: But I think this is a fact that'most people don't realize. That basically
we're, we're not all that different.
S: I think too many of us live on surface levels. We, we just don't look
inside of ourselves, we don't see depth, we don't realize this very
thing that we're all capable of the very things that we see other men
do. Ah...
And ah,
B: Iwith the same conditionsAthe same things will go on happening again
and again, and again...as long as those conditions prevail.
S: Right. It just perpetuates things. Ah, another thing I might add is that
what, not all criminals are in prison and not all,...let's see how does
it...how did I have that...not all men in prison are criminals right,
and not all criminals are in prison. ...One of my best friends I imprison-
ed. And, ah, they're'men that.just maybe haven't been taught how to live.
Ah, this is one of my big arguments with our educational system. Ah,
we're taught how to make a living, but ah,we're...I think we really fall
short on the teaching how to live. And ah, ah, the men in prison are
products of this very education. The guys who didn't ah, learn about ah,
dealing with money, the guys who didn't learn about patience, the fellows
34
LUM 121A
who wanted something then, wanted it right then and ah, and took it,
And didn't learn these values, these virtues. They weren't taught to
them. OK. Ah, ah, I, I can, some arguments could...could come back
be
that these things should A taught at home, Well, how many people have
the, the kind of home setting that would teach these things. I think,
I think these kind of things should be taught all through a person's
?
education or ah, ah history.
B: Right.
S: But it's not happening. I guess this is one of the reasons I became
discouraged with ah, ah, institutionalized learning and dropped out
of school. Ah, I have a year at P State. And ah, I as yet don't
have any definite plans to go back to formal schooling. I'm learning
a heck of alot right now. Of course, I'm also, ah, paying the price for
this freedom. Ah, I, I don't...
B: Freedom is never free, it's...
S: Right. I don't have the ah,...ah...I'm not quite, in a position for
the promotions that I could have if I had a...a degree. But yet I'm
learning somethings that I wouldn't learn in college...too.
when
B: I, I came through a time myself when ah, ahI was very disgusted
with institutionalized learning and ah, ...ah, I suppose I...ah, assumed
that I could...better educate myself than I could get educated in the
institutions, but ah, eventually, ah, I did go through with ah, with
the college training, ah with the graduate school training. And I'm
glad I did, because ah...and I'll tell you the reason why...ah...with...
It was necessary for me to subject myself to this kind of discipline.
Ah, I don't think they were as, as effective in teaching me as I was
35
LUM 121A
able to teach myself some of the things I wanted to know, because I
could be more selective and...I could do it at my own pace, I didn't
have to meet schedules and that sort of thing. And, and I loved the
ah,
self educated man. I admireAthis kind of ah, thing. But now that I've,
I've been through the painful process ah, to the extent that I have.
And it was painful. Writing my thesis made me sick because I couldn't
write it the way I wanted to write it. I had to adhere to certain
guidelines, and ah, ah, that sort of thing ah. And no body will prob-
ably ever read that thesis or not too many people. Ah, but ah,...the
discipline, the self discipline, and ah,...ah...the ability to learn
more about methods and..ah...of doing things. I, I think this pays
off. But ah.. I'm like you it's, very, very painful, and some of the
things that...ah, go on. For example when they ah, put schools into
politics and there playing around with the welfare of your children
and mine, your brothers, and your sisters, and my brothers, and my
sisters. Ah, this grieves me very much, ah and..but we know this is
the way it is. But...but...I, I haven't accepted it, but it was very
painful for me and I can accept, I can understand exactly
what you mean because....
S: I feel that dis...discipline is very important, but I think ah,there's
something called regimentation...that goes beyond discipline...
B: Right.
I,
S: ...and destroys all creativity and I just refuse..fI guess I'll always
fight regimentation, because that definitely makes everybody alike. All
the tin soldiers standing a line.
B: Ah, you jump when we crack the whip.
36
LUM 121A
S: I'm not a tin soldier!'
B: Right. I fought regimentation myself, which is ah, why I disagree
with the basic concepts of ah, of regimentation in our schools where
enrollment is concerned. But, perhaps we have here ah, ah, choice
between the two evils, the lesser of-two evils.
S: I,I,...when I...when I was in school I saw ah, many people...going
through ah, just a regimented process. I asked myself whether, what
they were really learning. And I seemed I have observed them since they've
graduated from college, and they don't know were they're going. Ah,...
they, well maybe I should say they don't know how to go,...or...or they
just...they...there's not to much difference in them, ah, four years,
four years later.
B: You didn't see that, that it did any good for them.
S: Maybe it was something that would come out later. Ah, but I just couldn't
see very much enthusiasism. Ah, it just appeared that they had been
exposed.to education and that's it.
B: Uh, hah. That probably is a very fair assessment.
S: And I...I feel...I feel it's a waste of my money to pay for exposure to
education if that's all there is there to be gotten If I want it, I can
get that free. I can expose myself. .., 1fdta ...LJLtIr--in-L e. -..
B: Well, that's alright...
S: I'm afriad there's not to much in me.
B: C it doesn't have to beindianess. Ah, what you've given;
us is far more important ah, than ah, one little idea,Sndianess
includes, is one idea. And you've given us, ah, such a magnificent outlook
on things, such a healthy outlook on things. Ah, this is a very
37
LUM 121A
interview
valuable one of the best I've ever had.
S: Thank you very much. I've appreciated ah, your asking me to do this.
B: Well, we've certainly appreciated having you and I wish we could
just sit here and talk right on and on, but I believe somebody is ah,
knocking on the door, or they were just a moment ago. Perhaps, ah,
they would like to see you, but ah...I do appreciate it more than
mean
I can say. I appreciate you,ITA your contribution. I hope you never
change. ^ t,.
S: (laugh) That is my goal. (laugh) Not to ah...
B: As we get older I'm afraid that we let some of our idealism get knocked
out of us or bumped out of us, or something.
S: I fink that might be, because we start aging.
B: Right.
S; ...and, and get off the maturing process.
B: I'm going to try and remember what you said about aging though. Boy, I
never want to get old. I've been thirty-nine for many years.Although...
S: This is body now is gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna age.
t: Like Jack Benny.
S: Ah.
B: But ah, I tried to ..... I'll-certainly try to think of that, and I'll
remember these other things too.
S: Thank you. I hope I've given you something that will be worth while.
B: Yes, you have indeed, and thank you very much. I appreciated it.
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