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Title: Interview with Gary Simpson (June 14, 1973)
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 Material Information
Title: Interview with Gary Simpson (June 14, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: June 14, 1973
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007108
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 121A

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
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This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

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All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida











LUM 121A
June 14, 1973
Gary Sampson
Interviewer LGW Barton
Typed by Margaret Mittauer



B: This is June 14, 1973, I am Lou Barton interviewing for the University of

Florida's History Departments and the Doris Duke Foundations, American

Indian Oral History Program Today, we are near Lumber n, North Carolina,

at the North Carolina State Department of Corrections, ll/bJOcounty unit.

This is the fourth in a series of interviews with officers here and with

inmates. Today, Mr. Gary Sampson has kindly consented to give us an inter-

view and... that is right isn't Mr. Sampson?

S: Yes

B: And the last name is spelled S A M P S 0 N. Ah, we certainly appreciate this

opportunity.











LUM 121A
June 14, 1973
Gary Sampson
Interviewer LGW Barton
Typed by Margaret Mittauer



B1 Would you tell us what your position is with the prison?
Um, ah,
S; AI am a program assistance II here'that involves rehabillitative

treatment programing and planning for the adult inmate population
Um,
here.i\I have been with the department of corrections for about 13

months now. Ah, found it very challenging, very rewarding.

B; The one thing I admire about you very greatly, ^ '-I '.i V/01 A

that your enthusiasm for the program and for the work that you

are doing here and anybody with alot of enthusiasm is just bound to

do a great job.

S; Thank you. Um. There's *never a dull moment here and anyone like myself

who is interested in trying to bring about something positive and
ah,
constructive and try to improve. ThenAyou can't help but to go about it

enthusiastically, I don't see how anyone could go about it any other

way.

B; UH hah..:Are you a...are.you a-+tra Indian?
ah,
S; Um, let me answer you this way. On theAapplications that-me-all fill

out at various times when it comes to race I try to a, I just put
I,I,
an"H"in there for human. So\I try to get away from putting myself into

any particular category of race other than human. I try to think um

with a universal prospective.
that's,
Be Well,Athat's certainly commendable and I can understand that because ah,
with yhe, IL e-
although I am usually identified with theA4,ua in Indians, I would

like to be thought of as belonging to the human race. I think that is












LUM 121A



a commendable attitude.

S, Certainly we all do. I feel that the a... among the indians have a

heritage that if were more revealed about it, it would certainly be

something that we could all use to help identify ourselves. Self

identity, I see a great need for that and feel that if there were

some sort of tangible evidence of a Lumb-ia heritage, and this

would also apply to a black heritage, to a white heritage it would
ah, the
really help in developing the culture here.

B. Uh Hah.

Sl Self image.

Bt Of course your name is ah, I recognize immediately as a lost colony

name.

S; I understand it is English.

B. Right. English which means the English colony which, settled in 1587, and ah,

and this name was very prominent among those who came and it has also

been very prominent down through the years. We personally think this

is a great heritage. Though these people who came in 1587 were the
They,
first permanent English sett6lErs in America.hThey remained here

permanently. They never returned to England. There have been questions-

as to what has happened to them, but ah, of course)I conducted a study

over a period of eighteen years and I came toAconclusions of my own.

Other people have worked intimately with it and ah I believe that this is
which
something forA we can all be justly proud.
I've, ah, some of your
S; Ai've read someAof your findings on this and I do realize that other

people have their thoughts and theories too.
1










LUM 121A



B: Right.

S: It really doesn't seem to bother me thou which is which.OI m here
whether
whether I came about though a pure strain of indian background,

white background, or black background or a mixture of either it really

doesn't bother me. I'm here, I'm me.

B: Uh hah.
And ah, that I
S: If is important that Ifunderstand who I am what I can do and I
A1,
find myself now working with a group of men very much like any other

group of men in that they all seem to have the characteristics that

all human beings have.

B; Right.

S The're very talented, there creative, they have their negative points,

their positive points.

B: What is your marital status? Are you married?

S; No, I'm not. I'm single.

B; Would you mind telling us about your ... I didn't ask you your age yet?Bat

S; 23.

B; 23 that's great. I hope you will retain all that enthusiasism for your

work because that is a great aspectAad your obvious idealism, I think

this is something we need. We despretly need, because as we grow older we

we tend to become old folgies.

S. I have some thoughts on growing old. I feel that we can either mature or

age as we grow old, and I would prefer to mature.

B; Would youecare to give us your parents names?

S; My father is Earl OYc\O Sampson and my mother is Mildred Alice Sampson.

My father is the son ofS)eC t Baxton who was an educator. I never knew












LUM 121A


Northern
him he died before I was born. My mother is from theANorth Carolinam

Virginia line area. Her father died a couple of weeks ago.

B: Oh, I'm sorry.

S: I really never knew him either, but I met him through a host of

aTener when we went up to the funeral and I learned alot about my

heritage on that side, and I'm very proud of that also.

B: You certainly are.... ah let me see now what I didn't ask you. I get

so interested in you personally that I forget to insert these biographi-

cal facts. Of course me got your age in. You are a native of oA bso

S: Yes. Um when I was eight, eight years old my family moved to Baltimore,

Mayand and we were there for five years and then we moved back to

ndRsrand we have been here since. Of course, I've ventured away a

few times. I was in the Navy for...ah...let's see in 1969 I was in,I

entered the Navy and I took basic training in Orlando, Fla. and I

took some more training in Great Lakes,Illinois and then moved onto

Phillidelphia.Naval hospital were I was discharged from the Navy.
was
After my discharge I went to live with my godfather whoAan Episcopal
he ah,
priest. I met him while in the Navy andAhe provided quite an opportunity

for me to learn alot of things that I consider have been very important
in my,
in myiAmaturing and I was there working and living with father at St.

Elizabeth's Episcopal Church for about nine months. We worked with ,Ghetto

children and various people in the community. Then I came back home, ah,

sort of wondering what I would do with myself. I thought it best to
anA ah, as ah, rPwM
follow up my Navy trainingTas a Corpman medicalal so I worked

in the Southeastern General Hospital for just short of a year. I think
And ah,
it was about seven months.reqventually I worked my way into this position












LUM 121A

ah, ah,
John Harrison who was the superintendent here when I was hired,\was

good enough to think that I might could fit in here. So he was the

one who hired me. Now he has moved onto 'it Correctional

Center.

B: And I think he was very wise to, good judge of _LAi n.

S: I learned alot from him.

B: Of course that sort of explains, not entirely but in part your both

universal ... outlook(shall I say.
me
S: LetA say one thing that, that may not make too much sense unless ah

unless those who are listening really thought about it. I believe in all

things. I don't necessarily believe all things, that is, to say I think

there's something good to be gotten from everything.

B: Right.

S: So I just try to learn what I consider to be the good and can't throw out

the rest you know.

B: I:might point out in passing that'in apppearancgure ah... you could be

...you're pure caucasan in appearance.

S: And I've been thought of as Maxican, Spanish, and everything else.
with,
B; You haven't found your connection here witht\this area a disadvantage

have you?

S: No, I haven't. I find it, I find that I move in a very special way.

I am considered -ufftMl Indian by my peers here. Therefore, I can

move in places where other people from other places can't. And also,

when I'm away from here I can move as freely too. So I find it quite an

advantage

B: Yes.











LUM 121A



S, Ah. Let me just throw his in. I have a friend who,um, has been an

English professor at Pembrule, a Richard Ve(- )J He is from a similar
it's
type background, of courses s is kind of Spanish and caucasian mixture,

but he found that he could move in the same way I can and we've talked

about this alot of times. It's pretty interesting.

B; Now, in moving about that way youdrable to come in contact with many

truths of life that you might not have been able to come in contact with

otherwise.
Right and
S. A that is what I am interested in truth.

B: Right. I was over at a r_ College last wee A historical consul-

tant over there for a week end. This college is predominately black

with somewhite students and a few whitestudents and faculty. But I've,I

had one of the most rewarding weeks I have ever had. I throughly enjoyed

myself. I was stimulated ev(co c(f A', and this is the sort of thing

I'd like to, um... I want to broaOden my spectrum of intellectual activity,
I..
physical activity too for that matter. At the same time'lIhave to be in-

terested, I am interested in the place where I spent most of my life. Um,

I've always said that I would have been a writer no matter where I'd been born,

but I was very fortunate in that I was born in an area

where therewas suc abundanI material. So many materials to

write about, i to explore and so forth.

S: I have a special afffinity for this area and a I've done more than just

accept it. I've tried to find out why because I've met other people from

other places who- have the same affinity for the places that they were

born.










LUM 121A



Bi Uh. Hah.

Si And that makes me think there must be some reason for that.

So I've gotten into all kinds of a studies.. .anything fromlastrological

vibrations to um human ___ All sorts of things like this that could

account for the affinity. Notice the place of my birth a ...

B; Right.

S; ...a, the familiar surroundings, the vibrations there which would be a part

of me which would be a part of me.

B; Right.

S; Which would make me long for that place no matter where else, where

else I might be.

B; Um. S!iZmn-Floyd once said, Dr. SiAdmtan-Tyd, that there is in each of us

a desire to return to the the place from which we came. And

I suppose this is probably true of um... of our relatives. In the
6; r-,
firs*-place or the place we've lived or we identify with perhaps.

S" Um. Maybe the boundaries of the tJiob can be extended

B; Right. That is extending it quite abit I think, but perhaps this holds

true. Ah, there does seem to be a special affinity between people who

have lived here, and particularly in what I would think of as the

L'EffLTtRiver Valley. Ah, which is a unique valley, ah, at one time

was very unique because it was and it still is entirely surrounded by

swamps and at one time in our past those were almost completely g$Wt1t a

So we did have the inflax of a few different groups, and people came

here because this was sort of a hide away valley) You know. A place of

refuge,and ah, I sort of personally feeltthat it is still a place of

refuge because ah sometimes people come in from other areas, other ethic

groups and, and they stay here for a while and they find the same sort of










LUM 121A



feeling. Although we certainly have many problems. Ah, but there

seems to be a human denominator here. I hope I'm not exaggerating or

over simplifying or anything like this. But there seems to be a...a...

humanist or humanest here that you don't quite find elsewhere. Have you found

this to be?

S, I've observed um,something for,ah,I can't say many years, for well

many years to me. Since I've lived here I have noticed that people

who go away to northern states or where ever, always seem to gravitate

back.

B: um. Hah.

S: And you know, that's always amaged me. Of course I really didn't give

to much significance to it, because for all I knew it could be that

way in any area.

B: Uh. Hah.

S: You know, Persons always gravitated back, and I've observed the people

coming from outside here who stay.

B: Uh. Hah.

S: And I've even observed those who complain'quite abit while they are

here, but yet they stay. (laugh)

B: Right. Even with all the problems...

S: Right.

B: ....and with the obvious disadvantages because this is a depressed area,

we can't deny that.

S: And I've come to the conclusion that maybe this is some what of a melting
pot this that you are talking about or or that accounts for
pot;or this hnmantst that you are talking about or, or that accounts for










LUM 121A


ah
the buman-st. Well, either way, ah people doAcome together here

from all different walks of life. Just last summer I, I met and ah
ah
fell in love, datedAa Jewish girl from Penns.

B: Ov r{

S: She was just down here for the summer. That was quite an experience.

People come here from all sorts of places.

B: Do you think perhaps the exottic quality, I'll put exotic in quotation

marks, that ah this has bee said of areas. For example, I was talking

to the city editor of the Gr eenitaro Daily News several ah months

ago about my book, and he asked me what did I consider made it successful?

And I said, well I don't know. I would like to ask you that question?

He said you liked it, had you read it, and you liked it? And I said

I would like to have something for you... from you.And he said, well,

it's...it's an exotic book by an exotic author about an exotic people.

AnhlI sort of laughed. I said,'well, I never thought of myself as an

exotic. He said well, no body does but other people do. Do you think

maybe this...this has something to do with the attraction for others?

Si I think it might, ah, t.., -hmystery involvedd with...ah...ah...would

it be defending from a lost colony, you know.

B; Um. Hah.

S; Ah. People are attracted by mysteries. Ah,it has, it has its advantages

in that....ah...it does have, it does create an attraction, but it has

disadvantages in that it doesn't provide an identity for people who

a need one, and who haven't found one within themselves, who

ah
have toclinge to something tangible from the past.










LUM 121A



B: UH. Hah. Does...this is very interesting for several reasons, this

interview is interesting because you have these points of comparison

and you've lived in other areas, in Baltimore particularly, where

several thousands of our people migrate since World War II. For

example, I remember that I went over to Baltimore and lived on

Baltimore streets for a short while prior to World War II. And at

that time the only three people from this area that we regard as

indians were myself and two others. And those where the only three
Stret ah
people there, and today Baltimore sf they tell me isApractically

inhabited almost entirely by indian people.

S: Something that you might find interesting, the ah...the route and

escapee takes seems to take him either from here to Baltimore or

from here to Florida or from here to ah....two or three...ah...

other areas, maybe Virginia...ah...one man went down to Louisiana.

But the main...the main path seems to be from here to Baltimore or

from here to Florida, and I guess it's because of so:many of them...

people from here migrated there. But it's...

B: We have some...few people in Detroit I don't know how many. Ah... we'

have some in Greensboro, ah...who have been there within recent years

and I suppose the need for their opportunities...ah...in the field of

employment accounts for some of this.

S: Let me clairify myself when I...ah...maybe I didn't make myself very clear

when I said it, after an escape I mean when a man escapes from this

prison.

B: Uh. Hah.










LUM 121A



S: You know. That's where he goes.

B: Right.
verv
S: It's notA smart, because...

B: Uh. Hah.
it's is ah,
S: Ahthe grapevine is ahthe very thing that brings him back.

B: Right.

S: You know.

B:. I...I was... sorry I missed your reference with...reference to to the

inmates or to the escapee. This is very interesting, it's interesting

indeed.

S: There again are those strong ties,you see.

B. Uh. Hah.

S: To be with ah,to be with his own people.

B: Yes, because ah thisRSO is predominately Idian.

S: Right.
ah
B: And, ah...ah somebody was telling meAyesterday. He said well this is one

of the few things, about the only thing we've been able to hold onto.
ah
But ah I'm happy for this because I believe everybody has a right to

his own identity, Ah... whatever that identity happens to be and if that

identity happens to include two races, or three, or four...ah, so be it,
/1
you know. Ah, it's sometimes like Wil Rogers I say well I can take pride

in the fact that ...ah... when my ancestors came from across the Atlantic

they found others of my ancestors waiting here to greet them. And actually,
POreffike
(laugh) this is what happened on Island in North Carolina. The text

books might say Virginia, because it was Virginia at that time, But this

is what actually happened when many of those people got together and

greeted the first white people over here, um actually &a, ah, welcomes










LUM 121A



m'A Ah, this is a matter of historical record if not tradition.

Although I'm interested in traditions too, I've tried to make a clear
ah
cut distinction between what is..kwhat is on record and what is

traditional. But the fascinatiingthings in this long story ...ah...

mysterious story..'. is-that ah, the traditions always apprat the

historical atr and vise versa. And ah, we have a which was

sent up by a lady just a couple weeks ago cale e r/ ______Heritage)
ah,
Mrs. Eidth Shepherd-, and ah, she has devotedAan entire

section of your te4&e to ...ah, traditions that I've pasted onto her.She...
?
In other words, she gave Lou Bardom a section and then she went over to
tuscC rr^ Im al f// P
th t r Camp in New York where she entered I4/ C
Anderson Anderson. And his traditions, the traditions of the

PvlrkG R ^ s ... coincide exactly with ours. .a.* .concerning the

Lost Colony which they refer to t.. according to whd is their

traditionalist, a very well educated man, by the way7 ftd ____che
coI,1i4c BcAr CIn ,
p7easL'r-aLtyf. you know. And this is very interesting to me when...when

historical facts and tradition coincide especially where you have it
course
reinforced by ah the traditions of two widely separated .people. OfA the

Sf -rO-er 4a originally of North of South East of North Carolina, so

naturally their interest in the area continued even after they migrated to
10 rCi FAlls T
N4isqpefa s, New York. This happened many years ago, in:. the f-wTfffrrA

War,for example, occurred 1711-1713, right in that area. And they'd been

gone since shortly there after, and yet those traditions are still alive 4

this fascinates me because we haven't had all that much contact with

IPA you know.










LUM 121A


S: I can see how that ah, that would. Um I'm glad that...the tradition

does support the history. Ah, that allows you to...ah...ah, that at

least gives you the feeling that you are on the right track, you know.

Um, I'm kind of like Harry ReCSO(C in that ah, I don't like to be...

what is it labeled to a place wherei'f people ah, who are labeled
it's
because it's prob..Aprobable that I wouldn't hold all of their views.

B: Right.

S: So um, ah, ah, because of that I guess I...I would hope that we could

get,that we could climb above ah, racial identity and recognize an

identity that is alot purer than that or maybe more ah, ah, I don't

knowmore valid, ah... Sometimes I, it's difficult for me to even

express myrsat feelings, um but ah, these things that I would hope

we could, we would climb to our universal feelings ah things of love

and ah, ah compassion, understanding ah. We would climb to a level,

to a height where we could see ah, people as individuals, and not

have to rely on ah racial identity. Something I found very interesting

a few months back at ah, ah community seminars um For a time I had

been asking myself why, why, whyis it necessary that in Black schools

we teach black ah, we have to do things in a black way, or in ndian

schools we have to do things in an ndian way, or white schools-in a

white way. Um, and there was a lady there who had a little booklet,
ah
I think it must have been forEfirst, second, or third graders. And the
little
beginning of the book started with"I am black", and it showed ahpicture

of a little black person, ah...and then, ah...I have a big black brother,

a picture of a big black brother with the little child standing beside

him. And ah, my family is very proud of being black. And ah, picture of










LUM 121A


the family around the table and it moved right on w the

book like this and finally toward the back ah... the conclusion seemed

to be that ah, it's alright to be black. And from that I learned that

maybe people, some people, have to realize that it's OK to be what they

are .

B: Right.
and,
S: AndAonce they realize that, they can...they can realize something greater.

Ah, ah, what, that what they are is...

B: \c C'2. think of anything else.

S: Right. But first they have to realize The're black and that it's OK to be

black. And then that there human, or same way with dian or anything

else. Lt ,

B: Well, that's exactly how I feel about te _n--tedhe' dian which is

why ah, I've always tried to encourage pride in our local peoplebeeatise

the' CV'- ndians or eaTre no dians at all, cause anything and.I-don't

worry a darn bit about the names. And some of our people are always

S AA I about names, and to me this one of the most insignificant thing

about our existence. But the fact is 3 ah...we do exist ah...we are

...ah...sort of a I whether we have placed ourselves there or whether

we've been placed there by others, we are sort of a Ah, we have

certain things to distinguish us, even are language. Ah, we have a

language which is different from that of the blacks in this area, that

of the whites in this area. Un, we have our own, ah, dialect, we have

ah..ah, sort of, sort of a... list of.,.a long list of patterns ah...

patterns really.










LUM121A

ah,
S: I can appreciate what you are doing,Ajust as I could appreciate what a

black historian or a white historian would be doing, because I feel

that you and ah...ah...others like yourself are helping to um, maybe

rediscover what a person is, so that they can then realize that it is

OK to be that and then move on to better things, ah,or to greater things

or,...ah...I think we should all remember thou that ah, we can call

something many names but it still remains what it is.

B: Right.

S: You know, and like you say we do get hung up on alot of different names

and things and the same ole song, what is it,the same ole song with just

a different melody?

B: Right.

S: Um.

B: I had an opportunity to sppak before,ah, the Office of EconQmic*

Opportunity and- ei-gn Civil Rights Commission and so on. I said it

doesn't matter whether we're different racially or not in the ethnic

sense, even if we were not we do comprise a distinct community. And,

ah...therefore we have a right to operate as a community. So in that,
in
that interpretation we were able to.get funding for certain things for

LRDA, imbWan Regional Development Association. Ah, on this legal dis-

tinction there's not,not as a race, and not from the racial standpoint

Ltf cittC-t-, It operates and has for centuries operated as a

distinct community, and I'd like to think of it as ah...ah...T.umb4n

River Valley because it is a unique valley as I said awhile ago.And ah,

ah I think this sort of...ah...gives us an outline for it. You could

call it anything else which would do just as well. But ah, it's so, it's










LUM 121A


always been fascinating to me that we had existed at all. Ah, in that

we have had this cohesiveness.This kind of ah...maybe this is good or bad

I don't know which ah this sort of clanishness, that people have often

asked me about and ah, my thought was that we stick together simply

because of planned perfection or the fact that ah, you feel more com-

fortable when you have people...to whom you can identify if you have

a problem or if there is a threat from outside or this sort of thing.

S: This,this...this brings to mind a thought can you just imagiriwhat it

may have been like when some of the first white settlers intermingled
"it's
or intermarried with ah, some of the ndians here. Ah, it'sAconceivable

that neither the whites nor the Idians would accept thenion.

B: Right.

S: Or the offspring from the union, and ah as more and more of this came

about ah, I can see why ah, those of that kind, the mixture would tend

to come together ah out of nothing more than acceptance eoa

B: Yes, I have considered thatI've thought about that ah, and I think

this is one of the things that kept ah, the people together, together
ah
down through thespsyears, sometimes terrible years. When it waslvery

difficult to exist, a little group of Indians was not to

large its self. They had eighty fighting men. AH...ah it's recently

seventeen hundred men, ah...ah it's not very recent in our eeB dng -

today, but in...in terms of National Histroy, History of the Indians
ah
it is. ButAthey had just eighty fighting men then and to call them

it's only about a hundred and twenty, thirty, forty people. Ah those two

groups, groups needed each other, and they came together and

exchanged ideas, helped each other and ah the fact that they survived










LUM 121A


at all in a hostile wilderness. Ah,well there was hostility from

both camps and they were caught right in the middle from the colonist

and also from, from mostl'dian groups, because lets face it ah,
as I
indian people can beAprejudicaeas anybody else. (laugh) And unfor-
t#dc4 oour
tunately often are. And I've oftenctae4d-c--e. people about this.

And it's a condition that doesn't make me happy at all, but it's a

condition that I have to recognize,and live with,and work with because

it is a fact, ah you know. I wish we were more liberal toward black

people,for example. I wish that...

S:. I thought that all men were more liberal toward others. (laugh)

B: Right.

S: Ah, this is the beauty of...of a universal view, you can...you can see

that, that there is a more basic demcriAat=-than race.

B: Right.

S: That, that things such as hatred and, and ah prejudice, and ah love,

ah, are common to all men.

B: Right .

S: It's not just a racial thing.

B: This is really the, the great difference.

S: This is why I can not fight on one particular band wagon, you know.

I can't fight ah,ah strictly for idians as anjndian, any more than
for
I could fight strictly A- blacks as a black if I were black, or whites

as a white if I were white. I just feel that I have to ah,I have to be

a human being and try to fight if if that's the right word for ah love

as opposed to hatred, for knowledge as opposed to ignorance, no matter

where I am or whom I'm with.

B: Right. Because sometimes one group can be right and sometimes another










LUM 121A


one can be right or wrong or just as an individual can.

S: Sometimes, like you say though-two groups could be right yet express

it differently...

B: Right.

S: ... and both be wrong, because they've fail,failed to recognize the

original ahthe basis of what they were trying to do.

B: I've tried to define...define human prejudice and I do call it human

prejudice, because no race is ah, excluded ah, all races just as all the

individuals are more or less prejudice, maybe in different directions

and about different things. But we are all prejudicetIto a certain

extent, and...it grieves me to have to admit this but I've found it to

be true. And sometimes when I make a general statementlrvr-"or\over-

generalization I get criticized a little bit.For example, several weeks

ago in. in a local newspaper ah, I came out with a pretty blatant state-

ment deliberately) because I wanted to provoke responses to see how

people felt about this. And I say well now I've seldom come into contact

with a white person who didn't feel superior to an ndian person. Ah,

(laugh) and ah,of course some people took issue with me and I was glad

that they did. Ah, but actually somebody might interpret that as meaning

that L-B-? is prejudicefagainst white people which is the farthest

thing in the world from my mind and my heart. Ah, one of the persons

dearest to me in this world is white. Ah, as .a matter of fact several

of the persons dearest to my heart are white. I have white members in

my own-family: I have,ah,white brothers-in-law, I have white sons-in-law,

and so on. Ah, I couldn't possibly be prejudice(against white people

but sometimes you have to Aqke these distinctions, and people are always










LUM 121A

now V rC
wonderingkwhere in the hell is he now. Ah, he's always between

whites and indians or blacks. And I just don't see that at all I, I'm

sort of like you, I try to follow what I think is right and act along

those lines. L I

S: I...The thing that amazes me is how any ah,Lkmbiran Indian.could consider

himself Jndian as opposed to white, because according to your findings,

historical findings, your theory, and ah the other findings and theories

that back this up. Ah, tmbdan Indian in itself is not a pure indian

strain.

B: No, it never has been.

S: My goodness it's, it's a..:.a mixture.

B: Since the earliest days.

S: Uh, hah.
and
B: And the amaze, them...the amazing,Aamusing thing that occurred, you

know in 1958, for example, when the Klu-Klux Klan came over here, took

one look at us and, and instantly concluded that we'd been race mixing

like wild and they ought to do something about it. They immediately

preceded to start condemning-us and they were going to teach us a lesson

we'd never forget and all that. Fortunately, they got taught a lesson.

They (laugh)

s: C(___i___

B: But, ah, this was amusing to me, because to white person in this area

would have felt that way because ah, they knew that this was the thing that

had been happening since before the first white, permanent white

settlements were made in this area and they know this. And they accept it

whether there happy about it is another question. But they do accept it,










LUM 121A


they know this is true, and every time they see somebody ah, with a

red hair they don't immediately conclude that there has been alot of race

mixing going on.

S: Let me throw out another ha...let me throw out another ah universal
ah
observation. Ah, well, first of all there is one, one reallyAbasic thing

I, I will always remember. I think it was an inscription carved on ah,ah,

temple ah, way back in the Roman or Greek times I...I need to really find

out the exact date and place. But any way I think it says something like

"all things in moderation or moderation fall things". This means alot

to mg because I can use this as ah, ah, rule and then I can look about

me and I can see that there are extremes.

B: Right.

S: Ah, at either end of the ah, what spectrum or continuumV I see the ah,

the ah, Klu Klux Klan, I see the black militant, I see the different
wt po etr-t-
factions within the indian groups wer-either militant or ah,

another way. Ah, there are all sorts of extremes. I think we not only

have to maintain moderation as individuals but also as groups. And I

think if we fail to .do this we're going to run into the problem that

exist that-eitherAin-the extremely UtmC Um. I think,I believe

strongly that the whole is made up of the sum of its parts. And since I

do believe in that I'll start with me, ah as far as any move toward
for
improvement A anything. I'll start with self, me. I have to know me,
I
and I have to,Ahave to love me before I can know or love anyone else.

I feel that very strongly. And I feel that is a, a constructive type of

selfishness. And I,I don't believe all selfishness is bad. Ah, naturally

you have the destructive type of selfishness were you, were you ah, ah,

as opposed to everyone else, and,and you walk all over everyone for you.










LUM 121A


B: Right.

S: But, I do believe in a constructive selfishness, were we love ourselves,

know ourselves, so we can love and know others. I use that principle
if
here, Ah, since I've been working here at the prison. Ah,Aif I run into
it's
a conflict with someone I feel that, thatAit's very logical that I have

as much to do with that conflict as that other person. So I jump right

into myself and find out what I might need to change to bring about ah,

ah, greater understanding with that other individual. Sometimes I find

that it's that other individual, and that maybe my fault is that I just
ah
don't quiteAunderstand him or know how to deal with that kind of indi-

vidual. Other times I might find that it is a personal, a personal
Lj f k
flaw wiAthmyself. If I can get that straight then I can approach him.

Ah, these are basics I guess that could be used any where in dealing

with anybody. I know...

B: This is so true when I point my finger at somebody, the thumb points

some errorings in my own direction.

S: (laugh) Right. That's good. I, I consider that filed away in my computer

bank. (laugh) I'll use that again....you know...that's good...

B: This is certainly encouraging to meet someone of ah, ah your caliber

and ah, this is what we need. We, we need ah, people who can think

logically and not only in relation to one group or one individual but

in relation to all. Ah, and yet at the same time we have to realize that

we're living ah...I have to realize that I live here in the Indian com-

munity, I've been a part of it, ah it's sort of adopted me ah, even when

I was-9< -: well I've been pretty far out pretty often. And ah, at times
I've...
well I don't know I might get excommunicated or something.(laugh)










LUM 121A


_- '. But ah, usually they receive me back with grace. They may ah,

disagree with me at times ah... They may mistrust me at times, but

usually,they trust me, but it's, it's something that's taken years

and years, and I wish with all my heart I could make people see and know

that in my heart I'm like you. I feel exactly as you do um... The only

difference is ah, in the relationships that I've had to deal with over

the years. I,I doubt it. Do you know what I'm trying to say?
ah
S: Yes,Awe all have our different ah callings I think. Ah, I think we each

do what we want to do or what we feel we must do. I think you ... are

providing ah, what it is that you are suppose to provide. Ah, perhaps you're

a symbol to the ndian. poeple, thefc4tn Indian people for all
such
that which isAa mystery. Ah, you are something tangible. Ah, I, I would

not... I would not even want to say you're not doing what you're sup-

pose to be doing,or that any other man is not doing um. And I feel the same

way about myself. I do what I want to when I feel that I must.

B: Right.

S: Um... I've had, I've had Lumbian Indians approach me and wonder what

they're questioning why I haven't joined this particular movement or

that particular movement, ah, this cause or that. I guess it's because

I don't...want to be like Harry RefA& lI don't want to be ah, labeled.

B: Right.

S: I feel I can do the good that I would do...ah, if I move the way I move.

and I think that's my choice and no one elses.

B: Of course it's very difficult not to be (laugh) labeled. Ah, what I have

a fear of is ....

B: Mr. Sampson I believe we were saying when we were interrupted by the end










LUM 21A


of the tape, I was saying something about my fear of being misunderstood

in expression and ah, I fear this above all things I think because I

realize that people have been _simply because they were misunder-

stood.

S: I'm very conscience of this too, just in my dealings with people and you

could see how it would be ah, ah, dangerous to be misunderstood by a man

behind ah, ah, fence or behind bars.

B: Right.

S: Um. That's- why I put alot of emphasis on trying to express myself ah,

exactly the way I want myself to come across. Of course, you can't

always do that and ah, I've spent alot of time many ah, hours at the

fence or inside the fence talking with individuals who ah, didn't take
ah,
me the way I wanted to come across, VeryAemotionally upset individuals.

So...
ah
B: Do you spend time with people,Amore time than you would ordinarily, I'm

sure, than you have to actually? Ah, because of this very thing3you do

want to be understood by those you are working with.
um.
S: Yes, yes. Um,AI find that ah, one of the major problems we have at an

institution, such as this, is ah, our communication. It's ah, it causes

alot of problems, ah, sometimes we get ah, mischanneled, ah, channels

get crossed, ah, in other words what is intended just does not get

through and then time has to be spent in trying to correct them.

B: Yes, and this is, this is the difficulty faced by even Presidents of the

United States. For example, ah, ah, President Lyndon Johnson who re...

who just resigned from politics simply because he couldn't get across to

the people perhaps. Perhaps, this was the biggest thing.










LUM 121A


S: I,I think sometimes, sometimes, circumstances make it, ah, more diffi-

cult ah, at times than at other times to get across what we mean, just

the very external circumstances...ah...ah...I try to approach things

in an organized way, especially here. Of course, I, I think this is
the way
kind of a basic thing with me just ah, as far asAI try to live my life,

in an organized way. I feel that the universe is ordered and I feel

that if ah, if...I feel that ah, creation is ordered. I feel that since

man is the only thing that or the only creature that, that has free will

and can choose to order or (laugh) or to live in order or disorder,

harmony or disharmony. Ah, I feel that if man would recognize thathe

ordered his life ah, then things would be much more in keeping with...

with what the entire universe seems to be presenting. I think I'm

getting a little wordy here. Um. (laugh)

B: That's alright. Um.

S: Let's see, we just, getting, breaking down to ah, getting back to right
Ah,
here at, at the prison.AI try to, to organize things, so that they are

carried out simply, efficiently, and that there is-less room for mistakes

or ah, ah, confusion, misunderstanding. This is no place for confusion

and misunderstanding, because there's enough tention, enough stress

here as it is. Ah...ah...maybe this is a good time to get into some of

the thoughts I had last night about men in prison and men out of prison.

Ah...one thought that came to my mind was an idea for a cartoon even.

Ah, I, I don't know how effective, effective this would be, but still

this was my thought. Ah, I, I think it would...that the picture would

..could be a lion ah in a cage approached by another lion outside. And

the two of them could be wondering how are we different, When it is so

obvious that they are very mush alike. Um, I think that cartoon could










LUM 121A


work up effectively. But getting back to the, the reality man in prison

and man out of prison. There is a stigma attached to being behind bars,

to being in prison. And there is a stigma attached to-being ah, out of

prison, looking 'C those who are in. Um, one of my efforts here, I
ah
think is to try and break down the barriers betweenAthe community.

The very community from which the man in prison came. Ah, but yet the

same community that rejects him.

B: Right.
if
S: Either during his time of prison or when he gets out. Ah,Awe can break

down those barriers, ah, things would be much better. I think they can

be broken down ah, the same way that ah, racial barriers have been

broken down in, in sociological ah, studies. Ah, I recall something 1,
ah,
ah, I heard in&sociological class where, where there was a test done ah,

with some whites and blacks. And I think ah, by mixing the group,
that ah,
mixing the two groups ah, they found thatAthere was less prejudice after

a time ah, as opposed to the two groups that were kept separate after

the same period of time. They still had the same prejudicedfeelings,

where as the group that was mixed did:not. So I think that if we can

get,.bring about more contact between the community and the men in prison

we can break down some of the barrier and this is a part of my job.

And I do this through ah, JC activity, JC efforts. We have an institutional

JC chapter here, the Triangle JC's. They've grown quite abit since I've

been here. Um, right now we are ah, considering ah, ah, a project to help

along these lines of breaking down barriers. We're going to purchase a
sr:.' ,ah,
movey cameraand ah, sme. some of our activities. There sArecreational

activities, ah, ah, working activities. We're going to really put what
we are here on film. And thenwe' re going to approach the various JC
we are here on film. And then A going to approach the various JC










LUM 121A


chapters and this kind of film could be used in other gatherings too.

We're going to approach the JC chapters ah, primarily ah, to show

them what we are. So that, ah, alot of the unknowing, you know the

cloud of-un-..unknowing is ah, lifted...ah, from, from their eyes,

and they might offer more support in our activities.

B: Right.
in,
S: Because up, up to now we've had difficulty ingetting things like

sponsorship, volunteer sponsorship, which I feel that JC ah,outside

JC chapters could provide as a project, to help the men in the JC

chapter here get out more and, and ah, be more productive.

B: Well, if we can help in any way as, as a Caqrqlina Iyndian. spic or

in any of the other papers ah, IC to get across, to help you to get

across to the people, ah count us in your C please.

S: Thank you very much.

B: Maybe this will help, maybe this will help some too ah,because copies

of this study will be sent back to Pembr roG State University, and

ah, distributed to other universities andthi ^' will be made

available to the public. And I'm sure that ah, 'it will be widly used

by newsmen. I for one of them ah, it's, it's a very broad program.
on
I've been working on it ahAmy little part of it for just about a year

now, I think.

S: Ah, this makes me think of, of something I have knowledge of um, it's a

little thing called Project Heritage, and it's, it's the brain child of

Professor Jeff Gorden. Um, he's ah Geog...Geography and ah, ah, Anthro-

pology Professor at Pembr-cC I think he'll be leaving after this

summer. Any way I've seen this proposal he has drawn up and I wish your










LUM 121A


people could get a hold of it and do something with it. It's the kind

of proposal that would work best ah, if channeled through a university

setting. And I, of all the things I've heard, and read, this could be

the very thing that is needed to help ah, create that self identity

that the people in this area seem to lack.

B: Right.

S: Ah, the person who doesn't know who he is, ah, probably won't know

where he's going, and ah...

B: ...or where he's been.

S: Right. Or where he's been.

B: Ah, do you find the people in this area to be very individualistic,

very d Kery V_ '' and so on.

S: Ah...ah, I find people here to conform. Ah, I find that they conform like

other people in other places.

B: Is that right? I'm glad to hear that, because living here so long I've

...I've had times to ah, 4_ when I considered ourselves ah, so

divided and so ah,...not just divided but fragmented that I & /&
to
I was worried as to whether we'd be able to4accomplish anything. You

have to have some unity in order to even carry on the days activities.

S: I think folks talk alot-aboutbeing individualistic, and being different

and all that, but ah, they all seem to jki ed up in the same part. And

if you're really going to be different ah,...I think you have to ...

stay away from conforming so much.

B: And that's one of the hard things to do. I've always agreed with that,

this, this is one thing I,I ah, I guess I view this community as being

different more than you do, because a, gesou don't see it as being all








S2q

LUM 121A

be
that different I don't think. But ah, it would ahngreat to me if

every American community were ah, more individualistic, more distinct,

more... If=yoa- ,every community, as every human being is, and as

every family is ah, ah cause...God has made no two things exactly alike,

not even identical twins or the proverbial P/ or... So long as things

are different and, and I believe this adds color, it adds variety, and

ah,...and it...I believe there is room for constructive...ah, differ-

ence of opinion ah, differences of every thing.

S: I, I think it's easy to recognize how we're different. Like other

people all over the world recognize instantly how they're different.

I think it's a little more difficult to realize how, how we're alike,
ah,
and since being different seems to...ah,...bring about so manyAbarriers.

Ah, I think we should place more emphasis on realizing how we're alike.

B: But it this not a form of conformity. Is...is'nt this too much conformity?

S: I...I don't know. It seems the majority of folks would rather realize
I
how...how were different. They take great pride in...in...in ah, empha-

sizing differences. I'm probably contradicting myself, but ah, that's

how we sibian's work.:Ah, we...we...it takes a while for the scales to

balance, so you just have to put up the ah, contradictions.

B: And just about everything has its contradictions ah, I mean ah, it's
we...
very difficult to say that one thing absolutely true about anything, but

maybe mathematical truth, we could say that two...two people's voice.

But as far as to say that about anything else with absolute...

S: I wrote a thought, I wrote a thought down on once.There is only one

thing absolute., that is...there is nothing absolute.(laugh) Therefore,

ah... by its very, by its very nature there .s no absolute.








30

LUM 121A


B: This reminds me of...somebody's quotation "All I know is that I know

nothing". (laugh) You know.

S: Yes.

B: Ah... I've, I've said that about myself many times. Ah, I've gone to

God in,'_.__ l say Lord ah why would you let-me-do.-.these_

-things-- i iv "' iI: or even allow it. I...I don't know what I am

doing here, you've got to help me. Ah, and fortunately he does. ...

Ah, but, I think the only person who doesn't make any mistakes is the

person who doesn't do anything at all.

S: Right. ... I feel that way too.
ah,
B: You're certainly doing commendabletwork here, and ah... could you tell

us more about ah... you know, the nature of the work you're doing

in trying to build ah "' r( between the ah, surrounding com-

munities and, and the prison camp in general .

S: Yea, um, I think it's trying to bring about a.humanrist. Ah, this is...

this is not something I'm starting. This...this is just something I'm

trying to get in on. It...it has been going on for a long time I un-

derstand. Um, it...it's of course been ah...marked by..,.the ah...unbuckl-
JCY] -e )C a'h,
ing of the, what is it the fallen chain, the Andcnow at the end

of this month I think it is, we're bringing the men off the road. Ah,
ah,
men who work undeiAmandatory labor, forced labor if you want to call it

that, ...that's going to end.,...more humanist. Ah, we're...we're trying

to, to...make it known that the people in prison are the same people

that came from the community.

B: Right.

S: OK. And, and for some reason, probably reasons that,that ah,... that









31
LUM 121A


existed, ah...from birth to age five during these individuals lives,

you know. For these kind of reasons that...that ah, we don't under-

stand wholly or, or that some of us don't even recognize. These people

did what they did, left the community and got into prison. Now what

are we going to do with them? Ah,I...I think it is, it is our respon-

sibility, we who are not in prison,to provide the kind of environment

where by a man can change. Can change if he chooses. We can't make any-

one do anything.

B: Right.

S: But, we can provide the environment...um, I like to, compare it to,

ah... soil and seeds. If you place a good seed in, in bad .soil, it's,

it's not going to grow properly. If you place, if you place a ah, ah,

good seed in good soil it will, ah most likely.

B: Right.

S: OK. um. Many of the men in prison are considered bad seeds. Ah, but

lots of times, lots of times we can ah, we can put a bad seed in good

soil and it might just make it...it might not, but its chances are

certainly better than if we placed the had seed in bad soil.

B: Right.

S: Ah.

B: Well,'I've-been aware of the constructive changes taking place in the

state with ah, relation to prisons and even I reforms ah, for a

number of years, and... I'm very proud of the fact that our state is

a ley'out frmn_--t__...

S: They were...

B: And, and I think C_ t s_ very wise to have someone like you on








32

LUM 121A


the team. I...ah, this encourages me, because I think you, ah... you

sort of exemplify.

S: I think we went backwards when, when...ah, the death penalty was

brought back into action, because getting back to my thoughts on
a
providing the kind of environment where byAman can change. Ah,... if

we provide that kind of environment we hare done our part, I feel.

Where as if we don't provide the environment ah, I think we should be

behind bars. We are just as criminal ah,...how...what are we doing if

we take a man's life, you know, by, with the death penalty. What good

are we, were, were we accomplishing? Ah, my goodness a man will die of

his own. What, what good are we doing by, by taking his life. Ah, I'm

not condoning any, the murders, the rapes, the ah, the ah, grand larceny,

or, robbery whatever it is., Ah whatever those things are that, that

would bring about the death penalty. But I am saying that if we are

not to assume the guilt that is involved in these types of crimes,
be to
these kinds of actions, ah we had better just let our actionsAprovide

the environment, so that the man can change if he will, if he will.

If he won't, then at least we've provided the environment. He'll die

of his own in good time.

B: Right. And at least our hands will be clean.
I...
S: Yea.AI think we are just compounding the guilt, the ah, the crime with

this death penalty business. I just can not see it.

B: Well, I...agree with you there. I...I centainly...I th ik adding murder

to murder doesn't solve anything.

S: Right.

B: And ah, the people I've been in contact with that have been guilty of








33

LUM 121A


murder, ah, didn't seem any worse to me than people who hadn't.And ah

I was listening to some remarks made on television, on television

programs a-few months ago and ah, ah somebody on the show said to a
a
psychiatrist ah, why don't we learn ways of detectingApotential

murderer and shut them up and protect society too. And this, this

psychiatrist gave a very surprising answer.He said,"ah, well, every-

one is a potential murderer. You'd have to, you'd have to the

total population.

S: That's right.
that
B: But I think this is a fact that'most people don't realize. That basically

we're, we're not all that different.

S: I think too many of us live on surface levels. We, we just don't look

inside of ourselves, we don't see depth, we don't realize this very

thing that we're all capable of the very things that we see other men

do. Ah...
And ah,
B: Iwith the same conditionsAthe same things will go on happening again

and again, and again...as long as those conditions prevail.

S: Right. It just perpetuates things. Ah, another thing I might add is that

what, not all criminals are in prison and not all,...let's see how does

it...how did I have that...not all men in prison are criminals right,

and not all criminals are in prison. ...One of my best friends I imprison-

ed. And, ah, they're'men that.just maybe haven't been taught how to live.

Ah, this is one of my big arguments with our educational system. Ah,

we're taught how to make a living, but ah,we're...I think we really fall

short on the teaching how to live. And ah, ah, the men in prison are

products of this very education. The guys who didn't ah, learn about ah,

dealing with money, the guys who didn't learn about patience, the fellows








34

LUM 121A


who wanted something then, wanted it right then and ah, and took it,

And didn't learn these values, these virtues. They weren't taught to

them. OK. Ah, ah, I, I can, some arguments could...could come back
be
that these things should A taught at home, Well, how many people have

the, the kind of home setting that would teach these things. I think,

I think these kind of things should be taught all through a person's
?
education or ah, ah history.

B: Right.

S: But it's not happening. I guess this is one of the reasons I became

discouraged with ah, ah, institutionalized learning and dropped out

of school. Ah, I have a year at P State. And ah, I as yet don't

have any definite plans to go back to formal schooling. I'm learning

a heck of alot right now. Of course, I'm also, ah, paying the price for

this freedom. Ah, I, I don't...

B: Freedom is never free, it's...

S: Right. I don't have the ah,...ah...I'm not quite, in a position for

the promotions that I could have if I had a...a degree. But yet I'm

learning somethings that I wouldn't learn in college...too.
when
B: I, I came through a time myself when ah, ahI was very disgusted

with institutionalized learning and ah, ...ah, I suppose I...ah, assumed

that I could...better educate myself than I could get educated in the

institutions, but ah, eventually, ah, I did go through with ah, with

the college training, ah with the graduate school training. And I'm

glad I did, because ah...and I'll tell you the reason why...ah...with...

It was necessary for me to subject myself to this kind of discipline.

Ah, I don't think they were as, as effective in teaching me as I was








35

LUM 121A


able to teach myself some of the things I wanted to know, because I

could be more selective and...I could do it at my own pace, I didn't

have to meet schedules and that sort of thing. And, and I loved the
ah,
self educated man. I admireAthis kind of ah, thing. But now that I've,

I've been through the painful process ah, to the extent that I have.

And it was painful. Writing my thesis made me sick because I couldn't

write it the way I wanted to write it. I had to adhere to certain

guidelines, and ah, ah, that sort of thing ah. And no body will prob-

ably ever read that thesis or not too many people. Ah, but ah,...the

discipline, the self discipline, and ah,...ah...the ability to learn

more about methods and..ah...of doing things. I, I think this pays

off. But ah.. I'm like you it's, very, very painful, and some of the

things that...ah, go on. For example when they ah, put schools into

politics and there playing around with the welfare of your children

and mine, your brothers, and your sisters, and my brothers, and my

sisters. Ah, this grieves me very much, ah and..but we know this is

the way it is. But...but...I, I haven't accepted it, but it was very

painful for me and I can accept, I can understand exactly

what you mean because....

S: I feel that dis...discipline is very important, but I think ah,there's

something called regimentation...that goes beyond discipline...

B: Right.
I,
S: ...and destroys all creativity and I just refuse..fI guess I'll always

fight regimentation, because that definitely makes everybody alike. All

the tin soldiers standing a line.

B: Ah, you jump when we crack the whip.








36

LUM 121A


S: I'm not a tin soldier!'

B: Right. I fought regimentation myself, which is ah, why I disagree

with the basic concepts of ah, of regimentation in our schools where

enrollment is concerned. But, perhaps we have here ah, ah, choice

between the two evils, the lesser of-two evils.

S: I,I,...when I...when I was in school I saw ah, many people...going

through ah, just a regimented process. I asked myself whether, what

they were really learning. And I seemed I have observed them since they've

graduated from college, and they don't know were they're going. Ah,...

they, well maybe I should say they don't know how to go,...or...or they

just...they...there's not to much difference in them, ah, four years,

four years later.

B: You didn't see that, that it did any good for them.

S: Maybe it was something that would come out later. Ah, but I just couldn't

see very much enthusiasism. Ah, it just appeared that they had been

exposed.to education and that's it.

B: Uh, hah. That probably is a very fair assessment.

S: And I...I feel...I feel it's a waste of my money to pay for exposure to

education if that's all there is there to be gotten If I want it, I can

get that free. I can expose myself. .., 1fdta ...LJLtIr--in-L e. -..

B: Well, that's alright...

S: I'm afriad there's not to much in me.

B: C it doesn't have to beindianess. Ah, what you've given;

us is far more important ah, than ah, one little idea,Sndianess

includes, is one idea. And you've given us, ah, such a magnificent outlook

on things, such a healthy outlook on things. Ah, this is a very








37

LUM 121A

interview
valuable one of the best I've ever had.

S: Thank you very much. I've appreciated ah, your asking me to do this.

B: Well, we've certainly appreciated having you and I wish we could

just sit here and talk right on and on, but I believe somebody is ah,

knocking on the door, or they were just a moment ago. Perhaps, ah,

they would like to see you, but ah...I do appreciate it more than
mean
I can say. I appreciate you,ITA your contribution. I hope you never

change. ^ t,.

S: (laugh) That is my goal. (laugh) Not to ah...

B: As we get older I'm afraid that we let some of our idealism get knocked

out of us or bumped out of us, or something.

S: I fink that might be, because we start aging.

B: Right.

S; ...and, and get off the maturing process.

B: I'm going to try and remember what you said about aging though. Boy, I

never want to get old. I've been thirty-nine for many years.Although...

S: This is body now is gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna age.

t: Like Jack Benny.

S: Ah.

B: But ah, I tried to ..... I'll-certainly try to think of that, and I'll

remember these other things too.

S: Thank you. I hope I've given you something that will be worth while.

B: Yes, you have indeed, and thank you very much. I appreciated it.





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