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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 117A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
Subject: Oral History on the Lumbee Date Typed: June 18, 1974
Indian; Interview withBetty Jane Oxidine k^f dr 'a1tccv utv
Interviewer: Ti tlorwit Lttl I0c-t r
Datlof Tape: July 18
I: Foundation under the auspices of the University of
Florida. I am doing an Oral History of the Lumbee Indians. Today is
July the 18th, ^nd I'm at the home of Mr. Clifton Oxindine, about
two miles West of Pembroke, on the Bud Oxendine Road. I am interviewing
Mr. Clifton's daughter, Miss Betty Jane Oxkndine Mangdum. The time
is 1:40MK.
I: Betty, let's begin by you telling me a little about your family.
You were raised here in Pembroker ere you now?
B: Yes I was, and I lived down on the College campus until I was
almost 19 years old, and then we came up here when I was abot
-19 yeg-sm^ a sophomore in college
I: For what reason were you living on the University campus? That's
Pembroke State University you are speaking of?
B: Un, uh (Affirmative). My father was Dean at that time, and was also
working in the History Department axd Sociology, teaching classes
in Sociology.
I: He's now retired f there?
B: Yes, he is.
I: How long has he been retired?
B: I think -a...-.e about four years. Now I might be mistaken,
I: Alrgh, now do you know)ihow long he worked down there?
B: 35 years?
H-~
Lum 117A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 18, 1974
I: Approximately?
B: I thinkT approximately 35 years.
I: -; where did he get his schooling?
B: He went to McKindery College, in LebanonIllinois. And he did his
Masters work aAGeorge Peabody College in Brownsville, University
of NashvilleJ Tennessee.
I: Um, do you have Can you give me your mother's nameTnd
something about her.
B: O.K. My mother's name is Fora Lee Wilkins.Oxindine. She was
reared in South Carolina and went to school ec. and met my
Dad at the building o history of Old Mainp.he was going to
Yigh Shool there at that time. I have one brother who is
now married and teaches school, and lives here in Pembroke.
I: And his name is?
B: Jerry Clifford Oxindine.
I: GouMd tell me a little about your family now J-
B: O.K. I married here was a white minister who came into the
area and was a minister at the First United Methodist Church7
here in Pembrokeorth Carolina, and he had a brother who came
at one point to live with:him in h4- home in Pembroke and wes
attendina the University his name was Albert. And we began dating
while I was going to the University, and he's inAadio. And we
were married a year later, in the year 1661, and we have two
children'from that marriage.
I: And what are theb names?
B: The girl's name is Dawn, and she will be 9 this October. And
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 18, 1974
the boy's name is Troy, and he was just 5 this year.
I: O.K. You spoke about the white minister& what is his name
-7
and what is he presently doing now.
B: O.K. His name is Robert L. Mang um, and he lives about a mile and
a half out of Pembroke, and he is in charge of the Robe son -
L* County Church and Community Centerind he also is astor at
9 ^kt-
that same United Methodist Church.
I: Um Mr. Mangnum has been in the area since about, for about
15 years, has he not? And is very well respected in the Indian
Community.
B: That's correct. I remember when Bob first came to Pembroke,
te people at that time we were very sceptical of the white people)
aindum,_ R4Jt took him a long timetazgs = trust and
influence the community in any way, but people now really
respect him /and turn to him in time of need and also he has been
a good community leader. T6-ga LbeC( \ V e Ia S.
I: He's gotten kinda' involved in the Indian movement, so to speak,
Where were they originally from?
B: Bob Mangum, or Robert Mangum is from Brandywine, Maryland,
which is about 25 minutes out of Washington, D.C. He comes
from a family of five children: two boys and three girls)They
lived in a Aural rea and he grew up and attended the Brandywine
Methodist Church, which is called the Emanuel Church And he got
his degree at Asberry Seminary, at which time he met his wife, who
was from Michigan.
3
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 18, 1974
I: Bob and hits wife' -\wd t, i-- and they have how many
children?
B: They have 3 childrenpThey have a girl who is 15, a girl who is 12
and a son who is 10.
I: WTell me a little about your educational background&
B: O.K. I attended Pembroke Elementary School, I attended Pembroke
High School,and I attended Pembroke State University. And until
I was age.19--e.ua, until I was the age 21,my whole world was in
about a five mile radius. I walked just the short distance to the
elementary school, the short distance to the digh school, which was
just directly behind the house we lived in on the College Campus,
and a short distance to the college campus where I finished school.
I received a BS, degree in 1961, from Pembroke State College, which
is now the University.
I: And your degree was in -
B: Elementary Education.
I: What did you do then, Betty?
B: Well I went to Maehigan. Madison Heights, Michigan to teach, I was
single at the time but I was engaged also, so we were saving money
to be married. I taught three Q years straight, Madison Height,
Michiga Michigan Za LL> y f( O a
1 /I ea'TChen at that time I stoppecdut to have my daughter, and I stayed
home about a year and a half, and then I also taught school in
Ontseagle, Michigan, Bell Creek, Michigan,and then we left 4Be- Creek
because my husband was transferred with his job and moved to
Lincoln, Nebraska, and I taught school there about 2 years.
"Li
Lum 117 A Typist; Margaret Lenkway
June 18, 1974
Um, and that's the last time I taught. I haven't taught, but I'm
looking forward now to getting back to teaching.
I: And you're living where aew? a F
B: I live in Sioux City, Iowa, at the present time.
I: How long have you been ---------------?
B: We've been there two years, and we anticipate another three years.
I: When you were finished with college, why did you leave the area,
and why did you choose Michigan?
B: O.K. I probably, I graduated n January of '60, and that's after
I finished I finished at a semester break and I was editor of the
yearbook at that time, so I had to stay to complete the yearbook, which
was not completed tiXl late that pring jand I was also staying for
graduation since they did not have any half-year graduation. I spent
a great deal of time begging for a job There was an opening at
Pembroke Elementary School/where I had attended as a child. I
Asked for that job but I did not get that position, and there were
not any other positions open at that time. So I continued that semester
until May of '60, just taking a few courses and working on the yearbook.
Now the reason I left North Carolina was probablyI because I did not
get a job when I had sought a job in Januarypan I had two cousins who
were living in Madison Heights, Mifhigan:- Magnolia Oxindine Griffith,
now she is, and there was a Ruth Oxindine Turnervitch, who were living
in Madison Heights, Michigan. They were working in a good school system,
that paid 12 months to the year, and they had several positions open.
end I applied for a job there and did get a job teaching the Aird grade.
'5
LUM 117 A Margaret Lenkway
June 18, 1974
I left mainly because of money. I'm trying to remember now what I got
that first year. It was much higher then I would have gotten had I
stayed in North Carolina, plus they were begging for teachers and at
that time there were just no openings, and there were a lot of politics
in the school system at that time, so you be related to
someone, or ,.
I: What do you contribute the surplus of teachers in the county
at that time to what it wagenerally nationwide at that time?
B: Well, ne reason I suppose for the surplus in Robeson County
was the availability of the college. It was very eovi to go to
school, most of the Indian people at that time were going to school
because education was very inexpensive at that time.
I: Would you not say that most of the Indian people who aa college
degrees do teach school?
OL-
B: Yes. Most family units were made, at that particular timeof
maybe a farmer husband, and a teacher wifeAnd they were able to
make a income, because Pembroke as a rurul community and they can
raise cattle and vegetables- things, and they could live real well/
ith that combination of a marriage.
I; After you had moved away a, d your vast experiences from one
community to another, how have you been treated by the white society
due to the fact that you were Indian? Has it been a.aesty experience?
kio &4te-.
B: I feel it ip.haa& probably when I left North Carolina I
didn't feel that strongly. As I left Pembroke I had a lot of mixed
emotions, and emotions were brought about because there was a lot of
discrimination in Robenson County. It was very difficult for me to marry
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lekkway
June 18, 1974
my husband/who was white and he had to go to great length to obtain
a marriage lience and this place --
I: Would you tell me a little bit about that1 deal3
B: O.K. At the time we were married in '61 it was against the law
on the North Carolina Law Books for Indians and whites to be married.
Now there had been a lot of Indian and white marriages, so this was
nothing newbghut most people went to South Carolina, where it was legal,
or were being married in the North. Now in my particular circumstances
my husband and I were married in a courthouse in Madison Heights, Michigan3
p e week prior to my wedding date at the LaRear Baptist Church here
in Pembroke.
I: You wanted to come back home to have a weddin- t ^ ,
B: Right, but I could not legally do it. Now, my brother-in-law,
Bob Magnum encouraged us to have a court fight and the laws were changed
in the fall of that year, but of course being young and so in love we
were anxious to get married right away and did not want to have all of
this in the newspaper. It was just a rather embarrassing situation and
we just did not want to go through the hassle* za-- 0 d v
I: Something you would rather not talk about--
B: That's right.
I: So as you got out, since then the laws have been changed. I think
many other people have faced the same situation, back during those days,
as far as the interratial marriages goes.
B: THere's a I wanted to say this and I don't know if you will
feel its worthy of being on the tape and you can erase it if you feerpi
it is not something that might be, but you know as you leave Pembroke
1l
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 19, 1974
as an Indian, your emotions are so deepin ground, and you have such
deep opinions about the situation here, um, it just ceases to amaze
me that we have all come out of it, and that we are whole people and
are able to contribute a lot to the society. You know that even though
you live in a community where you are well thought of once you marry
a different race and go out into a new community you cannot erase
the past. And I could not help but remember, um, what it was like to
be asked out of a restaurant in Robelson county, and then move to
Michigan where I could eat in any restaurant I wanted to or sit any-
where in the theater that I wanted to. Now I have never encountered
any discrimination. One reas-being that they are not exactly sure
what my race is,
concerning my race) aws I left home as an Indian and I have always yot kor
been an Indian and have been proud of it. But at the time I left
Pembroke, I probably would not have stood behind a podium and said
"I'm an Amercan" probably
"I'm an American India I probably would have Asaid it somewhere
very-quetr ly in a corner. Now I've been away so long that, you
know you just have to accept me as I am, because I don't care at
this point.
I: Uaelince your moving away it's been brought to my attention
that you've been very active in the Indian worldd through the Methodist
Churche)an you tell me about how your involvement in this came about?
B: O.K. During the time I lived in Michigan I was jI suppose kind'a
)
of finding myself in teaching school and I did not get involved at
)
all in the State of Michigan with any Indian work at all. Upon
moving to Lincoln, Nebraska.I was just appalled with the conditions
LUM 117A Typist: M. Lenkway
June 19, 1974
that the Indians were living in that particular city. There were about
250 families there and most of hem were tin >C-c. efadJt was just
a pathetic situation where there were reservations within 100 miles
of the city, the Omaha Reservation specifically, and many of the Indian
pPople would come into the city of Linc61m, Nebraska looking for work,
not knowing simple things, such as how to get on the bus, how to call
10,0 aboe t6eefi4
a taxi cab, how to s. legal help, where do you go to get food when
you're down and out) and this type thing. So through the Methodist
Church that I was attending in Lincoln, Neb I learned of an Indian
/enter that was opening. And I was teaching school at the time, and
I was very hesitant about going down there because I felt I had all I
could handle with my two children. But finally I decided that I should
go down there and see if there was something that I might be able
to do. So I did go down to the center and rdid serve on the Board
while I was there. We dx help find housing. _food, and
medical help and jobs, and this type thing. That's how I got involved
withr. a the Methodist Church part. We also became Methodists when
we went to Nebraska. And through that time back in Lincoln, Neb I
have since been involved with Methodist Chuch work with Indians. Now
the area where we live there are few Indian families, most of the
Indians from 9sas City, Iowa do not belong to the Methodist Church.
They either have no church affiliation at all/or they are Catholics,
or they aR -th- belong to the Native American Church.
I: Um, I noticed that you served on several committees gan you tell
me what they are and what cbndtins- in these committees that you a
serve r on.
Cl
LUM 117A Typist: M. Lenkway
June 19, 1974
Dh
B: O.K. I am presently serving on the commission f- Religion and Race.
This is a committee of the United Methodist Church: headquarters are
located in Washington, D.C. On this committee I am one of five Indian
members; the membership is 54 peopletb heecomposed of all minority
races;there will be about 10 white people on the entire committee. On
thecommittee I am secretary of the Indian Task Force Group. Our group
is made up of 11 but only five of these are Indian and have ever had
dealings with Indians)the other people have been appointed to our
committee and are trying to get to know us and what our problems are.
The other committee that I am serving on is also with the United
Methodist Church, and it's the National American Indian Committee
of the United Methodist Church& and-our job is to trouble-shoot
throughout the entire United States any trouble areas where there
would be Indian Churches who are having trouble communicating with a
Bishop or minister, or having trouble wiAhit the community e try
to send a representative there. This last year the biggest problem
has been difficulties between the Amish people and the Methodist Church,
and trying to keep communications open. I did not go to Wounded Knee,
but we did send two of our Indian ministers out there to act as the
laifson people.
I: In meeting Indian people from across the country, when patell them
that you are Lumbee, how is this responded to?
B: Most people have never heard about us, and then when you get to
talking about the differences in features, or the differences in back-
ground since we were not raised on a reservation, we have not had the
binds on us like reservation people do have, they find it very difficult
to understand how we could prosper and many of them express a desire to
10
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 20,1974
particularly in the Midwest the Indian people are raised to take care
of their owna f there are children born out of wedlock a family will
just absorb this child before it will be placed in an arphange.
This child will never know discrimination because he was born out of
wedlock. Now, I think you would agree that this would not be true
in Pembroke; there would be some shame, somewhere. And another things
they do they believe ifou have somethingAbe it money, or food, or
extra rooms for people to sleep they would think nothing of just
moving in with you for a month. Well, in Pembroke we just don't
necessarily do W6at. Ah, for instance if they have a paycheck and
they know this particular Indian has gotten paid all the friends and
relatives that he has will come in on Friday night and will be fed/
willingly. And they will eat and drink until all the food and money
is gone. But then the sad point is that Monday morning the man or -
women, whoever had the paycheck is back where they started a week
ago. They're broke and they still have five or six days to go before
another pay check. Now this is completely foreign to my upbringing
because I was tulgh4e you take care of yourself and your family/and
you look after your own', but you don't -e:c invite all the
relatives in to eat a e-until all of you are poor together.
2: &-^B n being brought up in your own home, what values were
placed on education to you as a child
B: Well, of course my parents gave me a lot of encouragement to go
to school, and I never questioned iti-t was just expected that I would
go to school. I suppose, I wi be raised under kind's of Purtian
ethic, the work ethic where you work.jf you want to do things, you work to
make these things happen. You just didn't think of being lazy.
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 19, 1974
that they would like to come and visit this area and see what it is like
because I describe the community as most people have nice homes and two
K J
cars and a//ir t/ and a working wage al t weekly or bi-weekly,
and it just sounds like a dream world to them since the ones on
the reservation f course, there is not much employment on the
reservation most of the land is not that good and there is not
enough land to support the number of people that do live on the
reservations.
I: Have you been accepted by other Indian people as an Indian :S.f
B: I ometimest is\very difficult you have to win them and show
them that you are sincere &kaIt's very difficult because my ways and
the waYd ITve-learned to act through my experiences in college, being
with other races, since when I started college Pembroke State College,
which is now the University, the college was suddenly also open to
whites or the first time. This brought in a lot of different influences
since most of my history teachers were also white, the history that I
learned was white Histor ynd it's terrible but I believed it. I don't
exactly believe all of it now. But what I wanted to say was that
sometimes Indian people are very skeptical when they first meet me
because I might dress a little differently then they would be
accustomed to, or I might entertain a little differentlyobut as far
as the seeeity, the sveny is there but it takes them awhile
because they are,very letry of ae different customs. I do find
one thing different in the mid west, and I don't know if this is a
personal thing or if all ndian people would find it this way, but
i _il
LUM 117 A Typist: M. Lenkway
June 20, 1974
Ae,--1 anyway if you had brainpowerr and money backing it was just
expected that you would go to school. You just never wasted any talent,
what ever your talent was you were supposed to use it, because that
was just part of our ethnic. But I did, my brother and I both were
encouraged to go on, and I'm sure our parents would have liked us to
go on and further our education by getting a masters, and I may do it
someday. I'm undecided at this timi. iit,
I: Since your father was av a college professor was this his only income
or did he also do some farming, did you ever know what it was to
work on a farmr& Gl o (7
B: I certainly did I suppose my dad would also be called a
country gentleman)he loved his school work, but his heart was also
in the farm. He was a farm child and was raised with a family of eight,
and they were raised on a farm and they knew what it was to work
hard. And as I grew-up, -s., even livinggone a college campus I
knew what it was like to put in tobacco a4least six days a week,
and I mean hard labor. This is getting up early in the morning and
then working til the middle of the afternoon before you completed
yer job.
I: What type of wages did you get?
B: I'm just trying to think what I might have gotten an hour.
I: Well I kehtght yourmight-hee- got-ee paid by the day, didn't you?
B: Maybe it was $3 a day, and of course I didn't mind the tobacco, putting
in the tobaccoTso much, although it was hot under the shed. My job
I never did learn how to string tobacco, but I learned to pand it and
L
I was a pretty good sander, and I enjoyed that because you were in the
13
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lankway
June 20, 1974
shade most of the time and a\least we didn't have to get out into
the field. But the hardest labor that 1-did I did as a child was
*o pick cotton, because that's back-breaking work
good pickerpae& I picked all day and I never picked a hundred pounds
in my life. I would pick I l
I: It was also being under the tobacco barn putting in the tobacco
was.also a means of social exchange, was it not?
B: That's right. That certainly was. You could hear mo re gossip
and more things that were going around town. It was funeThere was
always a radio playing and people were happyowe'd sing and >r f
things.
I: A lot of times they would be your own friends who had worked for
the same people, on the same days,
B: Right
I: They were around, and it was a chance to get to see them and -Bw
wa converse with people your ame age) pai it AOl7
B: That's right. There would always, of courses a teenager, of course
we- were always anxious to see the clockers, these were the young
boys that maybe we had our eye on in the community. So there would be
girls whe would be my age under the barn and maybe two or three
mothers, that of course were good stringers and worker a little
harder then the teenagers who were working the jobs.
I: WF ==-, As you were a teenager, Betty what were some of the dating
habits that were enforced in your home?
B: Well, in my home it was early hours and this was one of the hardest
) L'
LUM 117A Typist: M. Lenkway
June 20, 1974
things that, I don't think that I ever quite accepted that t1O-30lom.
I was expected to be home even througifirst year college. Now, I
did not always abide by this, but this was the rule.
I: What happened when you didn't?
B: Well I was spanked, or I was made to stay home for an entire
It,
week. %X, a lot of young boys when I was growing-up I was kinda' the
younger one in my high school class, so most of the young boys were
already driving cars aad-at that time, tm drive-in theaters were
really a big thing, and I was just never really allowed to go to
the drive-in theater. You know, to get in a car and leave home7was
really quite an experience, and yet I just looked forward to it
because -K- e other girls were also doing this. Most of the things
that were held at the school, school activities, even though I was
a cheerleader and was involved with school things regardless to what
point the basketball game was at, nonetheless that I was a cheerleader
b- 10:30 if the game was still going was expected t leave and come
home.
I: And um, when you look back over this, how do you feel about tea&.
B: Well of course I feel the restrictions were a little "e strict.
Now that I have a daughter I'm just not quite sure how I will handle
-T-he-d3aeis g course times have changed and the dating situation,
and most people do have cars now and it's just expected that the child
go on a car date. I don't know what my reaction will be. At the time
I was constantly upset because in my class I was trying to do all
the things that everyone else in my class was doing even though I was
LUM 117A Typist: M. Lenkway
June20, 1974
almost a year younger, and it was very difficult and I had a lot
of crying spills as I grew-up.
I: What were some of the social events that took place in the school?
B: Well, of course the big event was the Junior-Senior Prom.
I: Was it a dance?
B: It was the last year I was there. The year before, when I was a
JuniorI it was not a dance,--L
I: In high school. You're talking about High School or college?
B: I'm talking about high school. I'm talking about high school at
this point. Now religion played a big part of any humbee Indians
background. And there were certain restrictions that were dictated
from the pulpit in the church uch as no dancing, no smoking, no
drinking, no going to the movies and this type thing. For a long time
there were overtones in our school .whieh helped the church enforce
these rules and if that were not enough you were re forced by
your parents constantly telling you this. Now when I was a senior
in high school there was a dance, Junior-Senior Prom. But you
know most of us would danceout behind the house/ or dance out other
places, but we really did not feel as free to et*all-dance.
I: Even when I finished high school in '66 we didn't have any dances
during my -ea 4ro/ ]'o .
B: We didn't know what it was like to have a record-hop that's for
sure. You did a lot of dancing, you just didn't get caught dancing.
aad.t was very difficult when you were finally a senior in high school
and thyyzSaid they were having a dance, and here you are dressed-up,
at that time you wore big erimlins, the great big stiff, starched
slips and we were just so dressed up we really felt like we really
/ \
(^
LUM 117 A Typist: M. Lenkway
June 21, 1974
shouldn't turnfa-loose and really have a good time. We probably didn't
have much fun at those proms. We looked pretty.
I: Other then that there was basketball--
woI)OUbd 4.,e
B: Basketball games, there was.ie conventions where we would be able
F '
i v
to go away from our school and see other teenagers and-other high
schools. But there were not a lot of this sharing at that particular
point among the area schools.
I: Were the FHA organizations integrated?
B: At that time I don't think so.
I: Well who did you go with? What group did you have meetings with?
B: Mostly Indians, other Indian groups.
I: Did you ever attend any state conventions?
B: No,
I: What about Junior College years. Now, here is the college that was
all Indian i he years when you started. How did the white students
accept social standards that had been established at the University
at that time. Did you hear much complaining about "why don't they
6L-
do so and sco or were they caught up with other schools in other
areas, or can you remember?
Iot
B: I don't think, maybe I don't remember so much about that. I
think probably it was, it was really an adjustment just to be suddenly
in school with white people. Now prior to this time the only white
children who were ever in our schools were maybe te- half-white children,
maybe where there:;had been an Indian-White marriage, and the white
person had moved into the areaand-hka decided to become Indian as
such by sending their children to the Indian schools.
K'
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 2], 1974
I: How 4-s it looked on by the community and the real estate
B: Not very well. It was just not an accepted thing. Maybe one
of the reasons was 4is we just did not know each other very well. We
had never lived amonit whites and known then as friends and dated
them. We knew them and we called them by name, but we did no social
things together prior to a few people leaving the area and
meeting some whites. aadThen of course, when I was in college in
the fall of'56 the white people did start coming uia*-yA- at a
time, and we got to know them,but we were very sceptical of the
white person, and they probably were afraid of us. There was
kind'a mistrust on both sides. Maybe one of the reasons wee
beeeer- there was an Army base at Fort Bragg and there had been a lot
of handsome white men come into our community and date the girls,atd
.s they were transferred there were a lot of illegitimate children
left in our area to be raised by the mothers _so there was a bad
feeling about white people, in that they're just not sure they're
up to a good cause.
I: You said .ta you did date some white boys who were atte ding
school at that time. Even though it was not acceptable by the
older adults in the community at that time, did you find a different
acceptance by the let's say younger girls/your age.
B: Well, I think so. Naturally, Janie, if you have never dated a
blond boy, blond haired boy with blue pyes there's going to be a
natural curiosity /or an attraction to this particular person.
So I didr what had brought this about I had worked at Ridgecrest,
which is a Baptist Assembly6 I was reared Baptist and had left after
*he completion of High School to go to Ridgecrest, North Carolina
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 2], 1974
and worked there the entire summer as a waitress. During this time I
was idorm& with all white people with the exception of two Indians
from Florida. It was a completely new experience for me because I had
never been away from Pembroke fo-stay any length of time, not to any
other town had I gone and stayed where I was not around relatives.
So this was a very frightening experience for me as I watched my
parents drive and leave me there, because suddenly I was going to
make it or not, and I became very homesick. But during this AI
wanted to say that I did meet some white boys and did date a
couple of boys kinda' steadily that summer. So I had dated them before
but as I came back to PembrokeI was dating my first two years in
college I was dating an Indian boy so it wae-my third year in college
before I ever dated any white boy.
I: The summer at Ridgecrest did you find a difference in dating
habits with the other girls that you dormed with than what you had been
accustomed to?
B: Yes. They were just much free r then we were accustomed to in
Pembroke. Also I found out that they were willing to accept me;
I was the one having trouble accepting them as an equal. But there
was noti I don't know if I met anyone specifically from Lumberton,
or Repring or Claremont, that he white people that I did meet were
^\ do-
T
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 21; 1974
willing to accept meand I was the one who was having trouble
accepting them as an equal because I thought they would not see me
as an equal. So it was mory problem thfn th-re's that I had to
work out.
I: It is generally said about the Lumbee Indians that even though
they go away they eventually have a yearning to come back home.
Have you found this to be true?
B: I find 9has to be very true. It does happen. It's hard to ever
get away from your up-bringing and environment. You can run all the
way to Europe and you will still find people who have been away for
years and years come back to a surrounding that is very familiar.
to them. Someone has said that once you get old its just too hard
to make new f iends over and overt it's better to go back where you
verV
know the people and know the families. I find it to be true. I
never ely-lived in Michigan that the people from "the^-Pembroke
area or the Robe son county area generally kept in contact with each
other/so they could hear the news from home or c-.ay =5L4, have a
ride back to Pembroke with them, or visited among each other and were
friends among each other, so it was like having a little Pembroke
away from Pembroke.
I: Well, ir how frequently do you get back home now that you're
-7
staying so far away.
B: I come home once a year. I usually stay a month when I come, mainly
because I have two children. I get lonesome to come home, and my
husband.'does not get a vacation except in the summer months and only
two weeks9at that particular time. If I had my choice, I would come
at Christmas. I have been home one time in 12 years at Christmas time.
But since I don't have a choice, and I really don't care to leave my
AZ0
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret
June 2], 1974
husband alone at that particular time and bring the children down, teE
I choose to come in the summer.
I: How does your children respond to the fact that they are part
Indian?
B: Well my daughter of course is very proud of ity she has, wl
you know in our school they start the Indian Unit in the third grade.
and when she was in third grade she tust wanted to share so many things.
Now my little boy is just now beginning to get caught up in it,
because he's age five and or a longlong time he was going to be a
Uoa'v e Ai -- to 0 ea
cowboy and we'd say no ye-aft Indian, and-haZ dseainand -argue teat
h -wn"_ac y So I do feel that TV probably influenced this, -theh
we are trying to do---
I: Cause the Indian always looses.
B: That's right and he's very smart he wants to be on the winning team.
But we're trying to change:this now because his little cousin, my
brothers' boy, my nephew Todd Oxindine, is just an avid little-ndian
promoter, and Troy now thinks it would be really neat to be an Indian
chief. I said he probably wouldn't get much done if he thinks all .
they do is wear feathers. But at this point he is changing his opinion
of an Indian. But my daughter, I took her to see the play "Unto These
Hills'j and she was just very upset, swhen he saw the "Lost Colony "
last year, when she was nine years old, and she gets very upset
because the Indians were so mistreated and thought of less than
citizens of the United Statesaa4-I want her to know all of this
I don't want to keep any of this hidden, because I will not always
64
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret
June 2], 1974
be around to correct her thinking or to tell her my opinions on the
different things.
I: Do you think you'll ever return to Robenson County to live?
B: I don't know. There was a time whn I thought we would\surely
get into Winston, this was some five years ago. My husband had applied
for a job there and we just felt certain that he was going to get ito
I~: r1K'-e ~LA;> otL40C4-t AA-A 1 -
p Winston-Sal&m, North Carolina. But he did not get the job At this
point I don't really know,,his goal in life is to own. partially a radio
station.
B: Being a goal in his life, um, and the Indian Movement to the extent
that it is growing here in Robenson County, can you ever foresee I
know I've thought about it/ ::: 1
B: I know he keeps in close contact with his brother B/b Magnum, who
has been here for a number of years. And there are possibilities of a
radion station being ere)eve in Pembroke. So there are possibilities
of us coming back.
I: thr-t=dye., hen you would not f the time was right and so
forth, you would not hesitate to enter back into the discrimination
which you had=A& f. anrwould have to face and the battles that would
have to be overcome here after you came?
B: No, because I'm at a different stage in my life. It would not
frighten me now. At the time we started out our marriage/as an Indian-
White marriage that would have been a frightening thing, because had
we lived here as newlyweds he would have had to decide that he was
Indian. Because there would have been no whitenan who would have
accepted him equally as a man, even though he was white had they known
accepted him equally as a man, even though he was white had they known
'A2^
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 2], 1974
he was married to an Indian person. So he realized that he was not going
to be able to work here at the time that we left.
I: He did work .here during his schooling?
B: Yes, he did work here at WTSB in Lumberton, North Carolina. I think
F his job _probab that
Shis probablyat that point terminated shortly
after his marriage to an Indian person. I don't know that that would
be the case now&>I'm just not sure because there are a lot of
intermarriages, but at that particular point neither one of us were
that strong. At this point as my children are getting older and we
are older and have gone through a lot of a. Fa
-5a^^ vgPal ,s -a 'a 9a e $ 4a 4 c1-9,.
" e t*aaccepting each other just as people, and since we have been away
along time where people never question so much what you are Mgt what
you can do) I think at this point we're strong enough that we
e do it. Now I'm not saying that I would be able to go to Lumberton-
or Re springs and shop without becoming angry. I!'m not saying that I
would be able to speak to people, peak-to white people that I have known
all my life and accept them as equals I think I would probably reserve
a certain opinion about my relationship.
I: But you don't feel this way about whites thb- ju li-j. *--- __
B: No, there is a different feeling about whites in Robe2son County.
Probably one thing that would help me grow more than anything else
if I could meet a white person from Lumberton7or Red rings in"Ilwa
where I would feel they are equal& it would just be interesting to
see if we could have a friendship One girl that I grew-up with,
her name was Janet Kennedy6, she lived on the college campus. ,he-
was whiteg&he lived on the college campus next to us6 e played together
as children, and our brothers played togetheias we grew up, but I was
P3
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 2], 1974
never invited to her birthday parties. Well this was a very difficult
thing for me to understand, because everyday we played together and
yet when it came time for a birthday party) her white friends came.
But I also understood that when they left I was free to go and play &-d-
3st as we did before. Strangely enough I have continued to hear
from her through the years, with a Christmas card every Christmas.
Now there has never been a ne exchanged between the two of us. I
tried to look her up at one point and they had gone away on vacation.
He is a doctor in Columbus, Ohio and they have five children. Awd she
married a doctor. I would like someday to meet her and visit with her,
but I have never felt free to say what I wanted to sayts like
opening old wounds, to say what I would like to say and have her,..
-Is^- 9- /
and-I wish so much she would say the. to me/something like you have
proven yourself, or now I see you as an equal. But we knew each other
as children and this is something I'm not sure wi+i-ever go away, but
we do exchange a Christmas card.
I: You have several friends that you attended/aigh S/hool with, and
some moved awayatd do you still keep in contact with people other
than your relatives who are from this area?
B: I do only at Christmaa time. The first years that we were away we
kept in very close contact. I mean we would write several times a
year and we- would correspond at Christmas time long lengthy letters
about what we were doing and what.lour children anehusbands were
tdng, and this iS= Gf thing. But the longer I am away the less I
do this. I've just been away a long timgeI su ose and we have moved
wheo
l j -
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 2], 1974
page 25
quite a bitoand& I don't even get frightened with the moves, because
once we-left Madison'Heights, where I was completely surrounded about
with relatives that knew me as a child and kinda' protected me, because
I had never been to the city if you can believe, and stayed It was
a fr tightening experience my first year. as an Indian in a completely
different environment where whites would accept me. This was
frightening. Once I left Madison Heights, from that point on my
husband and I had been on our own/because only one other time have
we lived in a town where there was another Lumbee Indian. Now this
hasn't been by choi e, this has just happened that where ever he is=*
transferred, there &Lumbee Indian there. But
at one point when my daughter was four, we lived in Battlereek,
Michigan)and a girlfriend of m Vinnea Warre, who lives in the
Rollin areamarried, Battlqreek, Michigan boy, and they moved to
Battlehreek. Well she had met her husband at Merta e Beach, South
Carolinaigso that was just a rare circumstance that I had been very
close friends with her throughout 'igh Achool and then/ollege, and
then she finally moved where I was living. And we were friends and
did visit back and forth.
I: When you come home during the summer do you see,deoyou visit
other then your,-ah relatives?
B: Not a lotI do get to see when I'm home, I try to see Joy Brayboy
Locklear, who was a close friend throughout elementary school, %igh
school and ollegee.-and she is married and lives here in Pembroke.
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaeet Lenkway
June 24, 1974
Page 26
So when I come home I normally call her on the phone and find out
when it would be convqjent that I visit her. But maybe in a month
of time now I will see her tonight, and I have seen her one other time
When you move away, you come back to the area, even though I'm on
vacation other people have things to do,and I just call and say
when can I see you and when is a good time, and then I kinda' go
by that.
I: You say you get home once a year. Do you keep any contact on
what's happening in Robeson county, anyway?
B: I get the Carolina IndianVgL. which your mother, I think has sent
to me and I appreciate that because it keeps me informed with what
going on locally& I really miss the Indian newspaper when I am not
taking it. I do not get the Robesonian. And then I talk by phone
with my mother every Sunday so I have quite a high phone bill, but
she keeps me posted on the deaths and marriages and the births of
children, and this type thing.
I: The Carolina Indian Voice is an Indian-owned and run newspaper
that's a weekly.;-: that has been in operation abott six months.
Do you look forward to seeing it come in the mail every week?
B: I certainly do. It's like a visit from home. I wish they would
have more news I'm talking about who visited who, who's in the
hospital, who was home visiting their parantsga&d- I would like of course
to see a lot }ore pictures in the paper, of who's having pictures
taken at a birthday party, or pictures of a bride, or an engaged
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 24, 1974
"Page 27
person, this type thing. But I appreciate getting the news, it's
a good paper.
I: Have you followed any of the issues that have been
in the past year/or so, for instance the Old Main Issue? Were
you aware of what was happening there.
B: I was very much aware, and I just can't believe what happened
to that building. In fact I was at the drugstore this morning and
I thought I must go back and buy some of those postcards Roger's
drugstore ha these postcards that were taken years and years ago
of Pembroke State College, the Old Main Building / with the
Pembroke State College written on itCae I was looking at those
this morning and I thought I should go back and buy some of those.
because as I look at the building it's hard for me to believe that
this really happened in Pembroke.
I: -L =ow-- Jow do you feel about the controversy on as far as having
the building remain?
B: Well of course, I would like to have the building rema4i on the
campus. I feel it was apart of Indian,..it was just part of the
Lumbee Indian. It is one of the few things that we can say is our
own thing. Now there are lots more beautiful buildings, as far as
more modern and nicer facilities, but I just have fond memories of
that building, because as a child living on the campus, we played on
the stairwells and we'd climb up on the top of Old Main there was a
way you could get up on top of the entire building. We danced around
A
the columns on front, and watched a lot of couples get engaged and -ea
even as a child I remember many couples standing by those columns
LUM 117 A TYpist: Margaret Lenkway
June 24, 1974
Page 28
I have strong feelings now o the other part of the University, I
donk have any strong feelings towards any of the other buildings.
I would have probably had strong feelings about my home, which is
now no longer there. There is a tree remaining that stood in the
yard, by the house where i as a child and I always look at that
tree aand-I always look at a place where there was a- ile pool area
on the campus that ve- -- o,- lots of goldfish, and I have fond
memories of that because we used to take our shoes off and wade in;
that when we were not supposed to be doing that. But Old Main7/
was really, it was a gathering place for Indians on Sunday, and at
Christmas time anyone who got rollerekates was skating all around
Old Maingaa4-I just=have fond memories, and then of course my dad
all his years of teaching were in that particular buildings and-I
took many classes in that building. I attended many social
events in that building, I we talking as far as college plays,
dramas, graduation I graduated, the commencement ceremony for me
was in that particular buildingpSa lot of things have happened on that
stage, and I just have fond memories of them.
I: What do you see as the future for Lumbee Indians in Robeson
County, as far as social change is concerned?
B: Well conditions are better now than they have ever been in any of
my life,,as far as the Indians are right at the point where they can
begin to control their school systems They no longer have to be
e4.. You know for a long, long time we were good Indians, but
the reason we were good was s bc'o we never caused any problems
with anyone, ead Tf someone transferred you to another school you never
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 24, 1974
Page 29
questioned it/one moment. You never questioned who was doing the
transfer, whether he was Indian or White, or who was controlling your
school because at that time if you griped too much you could be
removed. Now the situation at this point is just excellent. The only
thing is that I wish so much that we could keep a lot of the good
Indian teachers, and probably we will because many of them live in the
community. But had conditions not begun to change with the double
voting/and with he politics I don't know,I'm still suspicious of
the politics in the school systems here.
I: Well it's still in existence, and right now you ntieL athee its in
the state of a law suit, which is pending and hopefully I be
4pen i,)and hopefully i be
victorious. If you lived in Robeson County today Betty, what would be
your attitude as far as the whole Indian Movement for that which is
right and just, do you feel like you would be an active participant
in this movement? Would you feel like you would be passive in the
movement? Do feel like you would-- what do you think your attitaes
would be as far as the Indian Movement.
B: If I were back here today I would be active 'I suppose the reason
being J probably would not be employed and I would be akittle freer
to speak ando without fear of a job. There are a lot of people who--
I: Do you see this as being a main handicap?
B: Yes. A lot of people do support the movement secretly and maybe
financially, I'm not sure of that but they are not willing to stand up
and be where the action is and have their picture taken or be quoted.
Maybe one of the reasons is their parents might not support them and
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 24, 1974
Page 30
it might reflect on their parents. But I see a lot of people holding
back because of the job situations they want to protect their weekly
rwwage and I can understand that because they do have families).kut if
I were back and were not employee, I would feel very free. My husband
would certainly want me to b ctive, so he would not fear.he would not
have any strong feelings that :Ishould not get involved.
I: I know many people who were Indian people, who are Indian people
and have married whites away from here4gaeia bring y4mi&sa- back
to mix with the Indian communityG.ave you found this true?
B: I do find that true. It's kinda' unfortunate,but a good rule of
thumb is you should bring the guy to Pembroke first, let him see the
people, lsa-thm get to know them, then if he still wants to talk
marriage this is fine. I suppose one thing whie mig t have been an
asset in my particular marriage was that my brother-in-law, Robert Mangum
was already in Pembroke, hiiarents already knew the situation in
PembrokepI'm not saying A.m they fully endorsed it at the time we
were considering being engaged, but by the time we were ready to be
married, both my parents and his parents were in agreement, because
even my parents did not endorse the engagement. Not because he was not
a good person, just because he was white and they were apprehensive
as to what might become of our marriage and any children we might have.
This happens quite oftenra Lumbee Indian girl is able to go into the
city, and find work and meet someone who accepts her as an equal.
Sometim out of shame maybe) she doesn't bring him back, or maybe
he doesn't care to come back I'm not sur what all the reasons are.
But it does happen.
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 25, 1974
Page 31
I: Do you think, do you think in- marriage 44-as become more acceptable
today, then what it was even 10; 15 years ago?
B: Sure, and it's going to be more then it is at this particular
point. I have very strong feelings about it, and I'm not sure you
would agree with me, Janie. I have worked on a church committee on
racism for a good long time and I feel very openly about it. The
best thing that has happened in Robetson County is that the Blacks
and Indians are uniting. You know for a long time in Robeson County
the fiite people were so smart they kept the Blacks pitted against
the Indians and the Indians pitted against the Blacks. And I suppose
the Aites were really smart because they knew they would be greater
then either of our.numbers if they could keep us separated. I believe
that intermarriage is going to be a thing of the future, and as long
as you have/ I will never be able to dictate to my children. Now,
I may try to tell them, but you know when you fall in love with
someone it's not the race you fall in love with, it's something about
the person that is appealing to one, and I really believe it's going
to be a thing of the future. /,Now, I've taught in mixed schools, every-
time I've gone to work I ask to work in a lower income school. I've
worked in white, suburban schools where most of the enrollment would
be white, but I tend to identify and communicate better with children
from low income homes and specifically since I have been in Nebraska
br
I have always specified a school where there would be Indians, Mexicans,
or Blacks because I feel like there is something I can contribute and
maybe help them seek a little higher goal in life. But there is also
maybe help them seek a little higher goal in life. But there is also
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 25, 1974
Page 32
a job you can do in a White school, because one particular year I
was assigned to a school that would be, in my opinion strictly
school 6f children of bluecollar workers who had "raised themselves
up by their own bootstraps" and would probably be Wallace supporter's
and I worked on their attitudes the whole year, and I feel they
probably think a little differently, maybe of Indians in particular
then they did at the time I started working. So attitudes aan be
changed anywhere in your neighborhood, in your school, in your church,
but I do feel that brotherhood has got to be, because the day of the
pure race is no longer.
I: Growingup, how was the church valued in your home?
B: Well the church was-kinda1 the backbone of our home in that we
spent a deal o1time preparing to go to church. It was just expected
that we go twice on Sunday, and at one point we went to mid-week i
a.fservice. It just had a very strong influence on my life as far as
values I was taught to believe in at that particular time. You know
A.
the Southern Baptists are a pretty strict in their background and beliefs
and doctrines, anyway.
I: Umt, have you ehese beliefs and doctrines,as far as the Methodist
Churcbhhas/put a lot of money into Robeson County voter registration,
things that will help bring about social change. Do you feel like the
churches on the local level, do you think they've made much progress
in this direction?
B: Well I think so, and I really can't qualify that statement though.
I don't know that Robert Mangums' church, his congregation) completely
understand all the things that He hao taken on that the United Methodist
LUM 117 A Typist: Margaret Lenkway
June 25, 1974
Page 33
Church nationally has contributed money to. Locally I'm not sure they
would endorse the thing if they completely understood but I am glad,,-
and that's one reason I am Methodist at this particular point, you
know the Baptis have been dragging their feet on this racial
question, they have not wanted to get involved because the people
who were supporting the church were the older people who believed
in complete separate races and separate church systems&, o that's
why I am Methodist at this particular pointbecause the Methodist
Church has not been afraid to get into controversial issues. In
Iowa the Methodist Church appropriated money for Dennis Banks, for
his bail at the Iowa Conference, -tke-eww Methodist Conference this
year. Now this is something that hasn't been done before.
I: What are your feelings about Dennis Banks and
and the American Indian Movement? The organization?
B: The organization as such?
I: Un, huh (affirmative).
B: Oh my, that's a hard question. I don't know. I was happy to
see the Church provide lail, because I believe everybody needs a fair
day in court,and if the Methodist Church can step in and assure
Dennis Banks that he is going to get a fair trial, and then I
see this as an action the Yhurch should take. As far as the AIM
movement is concerned I know many of the Mid7western Indians who
are at the same point because they have friends that are joining AIM.
I don't believe, I just don't believe in some of the things that
took place in Wounded Knee, and yet I suppose every pioneer that has
LUM 117 A Margaret Lenkway
June 25, 1974
Page 34
ever been has had to scrkfice something and stand alone. I suppose
00-
what frightens me more thin anything is that I don't like violence.
Unfortunately in the United States there has to be some act of violence
from minority races almost before any course of action is taken. It's
unfortunate that this is the way it kinda' happens. I have not joined
AIM there is an AIM chapter in Sioux City, Iowa, But the Indians in
Sioux City are dividedT he younger ones belong to the American
Indian Movement. They haveAno violence or destruction at all in
Sioux City, Iowa, but they have marched throughout the state and
did camp on the Iowa Church Conference grounds when the Methodist
people dihave their annual conference. So they have done no damage
locally, but most Sioux Citian's are friglened of AIM because they are
afraid they are going to do burning, or tearing down, or shooting.aad"
I must admit I am a little apprehensive.
I: Have you ever met Dennis Banks? Or _
B: I have not met ens-- I was iff to go out to Wounded Kneeg)
at the time things were very difficult I was supposed to go out as a
Methodist Church member to be a lia on because they needed Indian people
out there to communicate with the AIM peoplea4-I choose not to go, and
I suppose because I was frightened. When it looked like it might be
my neck or maybe my life that I was putting at stake, .af then I thought
of my children and my husband, and it was very easy for me to figure out
a reason why I should not be there. It just was frightening to me. I
have not met them They're very dynamic people. Russel Means was
published on the A- Notes Calandrr, I thinkfor the month
of July as one of the dynamic Indian leaders. His mother is from
LUM 117 A Typist: M. Lenkway
June 25, 1974
Page 35
Sioux City, Iowa, but she no longer lives there. Bt she was the
director of the Indian Center, which is the center wha44er is opposed
to the AIM movement in Sioux City. But I haven't met him.
I: What are some of the conferences that yo'u Teattending through
the Methodist Church? What type of activities have you participated
in, other thn just committee meetings?
B: Nothing other th n just trouble shooting at the different
Indian churches. Most of the time I have been going to Oklahoma City.
because there is an unfriendly Bishop in the State of Oklahoma. He
is a Methodist Bishop, a white man, who is having trouble communicating
with the Indians. In other words he is the leader and he will not
let them have any part of the leadership& je's kind of a dictator.
And this has been where most of our meetings have been, to go down
there and try to communicate with him and -tge point out to him
areas where we feel he needs to change. He has not changed at this
point because he says the local Indian people do not want this
leadership, and we're saying "how do you know they don't want it _
This is mostly the type of activity that I've been involved with.
Now I'm also on an Indian Board for the Sioux City Schools, and we
have not functioned at this point, but we have pending workshops when
I get back, and I will be a participant in two of those days. This
was, the workshop was setlp with Federal money' here was a grant for 0^
Indian studies orkshopjgaAd- what we are trying to do is point out some
of the resources available to teachers who are interested in bringing
in minority race people, pointing out what contributions they have made
to society, how you could intergrate it into a normal classroom situation
LUM 117 A Typist: M. Lenkway
June 25, 1974
Page 36
and point out some of these things that maybe my elementary schooling
did not point out.
I: Well it's sure been nice talking with you. Are there any words2
or comments you would like to leave with history, Betty?
B: Oh, jhjad known this I probably could have prepared a long,
long statement., Yes, I would have been glad to do that. Nothing
- other t ime I'm just so happy that Robeson County is beginning
to change. It's a new day in Robeson County. I see people who are
proud to be Indians9and are not afraid. This was not the case when
I was growingZupt we were nowilling to take a stand, even if it ment
stand alone. So, this has been one of the best signs of progress that
I have seen in all the years coming home, this summer I feel new feelings
in the people. I see people who would be willing to wear a headband
or who would be willing to be called Indian.
I: Thank you, Betty.
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