Title: Interview with Dr. Waltz Maynor (July 23, 1973)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007102/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Dr. Waltz Maynor (July 23, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: July 23, 1973
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007102
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 115A

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Full Text


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LUM 115A

Subject: Dr. Waltz Maynor
Interviewer: (I: Interviewer)
Date: July 23, 1973
Typist: JoAnn Suslowicz

Side 1

I: Dr. Waltz Maynor. Today's date is July 23, 1973./Uh, Dr. Maynor when were

you born?

M: February 21, 1933.

I: Where was your place of birth?

M: Pembroke in Robj-son County, North Carolina.

I: Who were your, uh, parents?

M: Wayne Maynor and Lucy Sanderson; Lucy James Sanderson.

I: What was your father's occupation?

M: A farmer and a school teacher.

I: Where dd, uh, he receive his education?

M: At Newlbpes Elementary School and Pembroke High School, and Pembroke State


I: What year did he finish college?

M: He began teaching in 1929, after he finished high school. But after Pembroke

became a four-year institution, he went back and graduated in 1941.with a

Bachelors Degree in Elementary Education and became a sixth grade teacher.

I: Then. .

M: Though he taught--he taught, um, the sixth through the eighth at the greatest


I: Then in 1929, um, he was able to teach, uh, school with only a High School


M: Right.

I: Was this the custom--was this standard in all the schools at that time there?

LUM 115A 2

M: I don't know. I'm sure it was, um, standard in the Indian schools, Qbecause

the college was not a--didn't begin a two-year normal program until 1937 or

so, was when they began it. I believe Daddy was along with the first graduating

class about 1941. So, all the teachers before say 19--late 1930's, all they

could have was a high school diploma, unless they went out of the area and

graduated from college.

I: Sir, at this point, anyway, all the teachers in the Union schools were Indian?

Was this true also at the high school?

M: I think there was some white--or there -were some white--whites teaching in

high school because I remember Daddy talking about--referring to a white lady

who-was teaching him in Pembroke--at Pembroke.

I: Was 'mbroke at this time the only, uh, Indian high school in town?

M: I think so.

I: At this time, uh. .when we say at this time, are we talking about '20's. .

M: '20's, yes. I think that would be a safe bet.

I: Was this in all the communittees, for example, in New Hope, or was this the

New Hope school that was later moved to. .

M: That's right.

I: .Pembroke.

M: The New Hope School and the Pembroke school are basically one and the same.

Because the school was begun in--at New Hope, and then later moved to Pembroke.

I: Your, uh, Mother, uh, what did she do?

M: She was a housewife.

I: She never had any, uh, job outside the home?

M: She worked as a--in a cafeteria for one of the high schools--maybe four--

maybe two of the local schools. She cooked in a cafeteria, (t'i. .-_ firttI't"l'T'\

in the cafeteria. I think she called herself a dietician, or something. She

LUM 115A 3

was the job--manager. That's it. She was the manager of the cafeteria. And,

uh, they were I<\L a sum total of ten years.

I: You say your father, uh. was a farmer. What kind of farm did he operate?

M: He might grow tobacco, cotton, corn, and livestock--pork, cows.

I: Approximately what size farm are we talking about?

M: Hundred acres.

I: Um-hum. (Affirmative) Did he raise any livestock for use off the farm? I

mean to sell off the farm?

M: Yes. Chiefly pork in my younger days. Recently he's beginning to raise beef

for commercial marketing.

I: What size tobacco allotment did he handle in your time?

M: Well, tobacco allotment varied.

I: In that time?

M: Well, when we say in that time. .

I: Oh, oh. ,

M: you meant years I ought to be referring to, you see, because in

1940 tobacco wasn't allotted. It became, maybe about--it was first allotted

sometime about then.

I: Okay, then let's talk about before it was allotted. Uh, approximately how many

acres did he raise?

M: Jeeze, I don't know. I can re--recall him saying that he only had to buy for

maybe one year, six acres. before it became allotted. Then they--we can talk

about (A Aj '- j say during the '50's or during the '60's. I'm pretty

familiar with the '50's and '60's of his farming career.

I: Um, let's see. .

M: But before, but before '50's--before the '50's, I didn't know much bff-- what

was going on.

LUM 115A 4

I: You know about the '50's then.

M: Okay, you mean what was the tobacco allotment duringathe '50's?

I: Right.

M: About seven and a half acres.

I: Uh, your father came from what size family?

M: Thirteen--fourteen. .fourteen children.

I: All that lived?

M: Yeah. All lived to be adults. There was twelve of them lived to be past

60. At one time--twelve past 60.

I: That's quite a family. What did, uh--you recall your grandfather if any?

Your father's father?

M: Yes.

I: He was Indian?

M: He was a farmer.

I: Did he own his own land?

M: No. Ib was a sharecrop--he was a sharecropper.

I: In what area of the county?

M: In, uh, New Hope's area. .C 6 &t I( S area.

I: Who did he own his land from?

M: From, um, uh, Willy Lowry's widow.

I: From another Indian?

M: Yeah, another Indian f-1CAl

I: What about your mother's family?

M: (fAc(L^ I1'tI. '_______

M: Yeah, uh, Tommy Sanderson. He was a farmer, and he owned his, um, land. I

never knew my mother's dad. He died before I was born.

LUM 115A 5

I: Uh, do ou know approximately what size farm he operated?

M: Yeah, he had--jeeze, it's hard to say because I just hear things of back there.
L I^
I'ldsay probably about a hundred acres s, uh--I know one part he owned was

hundred and fifty acres or so.

I: The, uh--this same period of time in the '40's and '50's then would a hundred

acre farm be large, small, or what?

M: Probably pretty large. The average farm size in North Carolina at that time

was about 51 acres.

I: Um,hum. (Affirmative) Your,um, father--what type of person was he as far as

personality? Was he extroverted or what?

M: He was introverted. Um, he was a good provider, very stern. Matter of fact,

he still is stern. And he says things to, to me like he still views me as

his little boy. Happen to go out where he is working on a tractor, you'll see

he'll want me to get on and fix the tractor, and I'll refer to the way I'm

dressed, and he'd say you ought not have come out here dressed like that.

He's still stern, a good provider, doesn't take any nonsense, very honest--

honest sort, very conservative--very conservative, very religious. He believes

in Sunday mornings he and all his household attending church. He shaves on

Saturday night because his mother wouldn't let him shave on Sunday. He still

shaves on Saturday night. At midnight he won't. He'll shave between 11 and

12 o'clock on Saturday night--never on Sunday. Very religious.

I: Did you do anything on Sunday? What were the _\ A r________ ?

M: Maintenance work. Maintenance from the aspect of, um, livestock maintenance.

Feed--feeding, you know, doing little farm chores. Nothing else. Kinda

liked it. If the ox get in a ditch you helped him out on Sunday. That's

about it.

I: You said he was conservative. Were you talking--speaking politically, or. .

LUM 115A 6

M: Yeah, every way. He's a democrat. He votes a straight democratic ticket.

But I think the depression had a lot to do with that. But, he's not a risk

taker, and he lives, um, very internalized in person, that believes in saving
for rainy days--that's his expression. Saved up for a rainy day. And he

doesn't believe in extending himself beyond his capacity. That's in another

pet phrase he has C(6 9, p i ?55_'1 you've got to

crawl before you can walk.

I: You--you seem to feel that the, uh, depression molded him a great deal in

0 S l::Tf\(lu"z9 T him. Do you recall any of the stories that

he told dbout the depression days?

M: Not too mny. My daddy, he, he started teaching school in '29. He got married

in 1931. Because he just was--he was just newly married during the depression.

He was teaching school, and he would talk about the .e. schools were

county--were operated by the county government at that time, uh, the local and

municipality, and he was--he'ld talk about the depr--the state taking the

schools over during the depression. And he taught for like three months with-

out being paid. He was paid $90 a month, or maybe it was 60--and he'd talk

about tting a cut in salary. And it was during this time that--see my grand-

mother died early. My dad's mother. And, uh, he had a lot of brothers in the

house with his father, which is my grandfather--like five or six boys,

were left in this house by ;themselves with their dad. And daddy got married

and my mother moved in--moved in with them. So, um, he--during the depression

he took over the family responsibilities from my grandfather. And the brothers

later married off 0^ &_ 04 1f I So, I imagine I was reared

in a patriartic family. Is that what it is when you're raised--when you're

raised with your grandfather? Yes, patriarchal family. My grandfather, my

father, aid I all lived in the house together.

I: Your grandfather, was he the head of the house?

LUM 115A 7

M: He was somewhat a figurative head. My father was the financial head. My--my

dad supported the house.

I: Your, uh, you say your uncles moved away and the fourteen kids, andKlhow-many

of you remained in Robeson County?

M: Gosh, Ihave to think a minute. All of them did. He didn't have a brother or

a sister that moved out of Robeson County. Everyone of them lived in Robeson

County. V~ o^ yC'c- ("VM"- -- (.rj

I: Did your father ever leave Robeson for any period of time?

M: Not then he didn't.

I: Did he take employment. .

M: Oh, yeah. Well he taught school in Sampson County with the Indians there for

a year.

I: What year is this?

M: Must have been about 1929. The third--was that his first year of teaching, I

think ILA oA_ _C_

I: Uh, was he unable to get employment in Robeson, then?

M: I don't how.

I: In Sampson, at that time, you say that, uh, as far as education there was in
(f ( 17
worse condition than the, uh, the .lWi-t1- ?

M: Yeah. I think that's a good assessment. They were not as literate as the

people in Robeson County--you, you mean the Indians in Sampson County.

I: Yes.

M: They wererot as literate.

I: You mean the Indian teachers the county obtained from Robeson?

M: Look at Robeson County. It's pretty much true today, too.

I: Well. ..

M: Like he Indians in New Hope.

I: Now IhOY-Y' ^ 'V- 1AeJ I? + ^C(C .

LUM 115A 8

M: Right. bn years ago that was pretty true.

I: Uh, how would you describe your mother?

M: Momma worked hard. She wasn't as conservative as daddy is. She was--provided

well for her family. A good housekeeper. Let me go back to my dad, since I

can distinguish between the two. One--one of--daddy never would rewarded you

for anything. He punished you when you didn't do it. A reward from daddy was

to be left alone. You know, but praise, daddy never handed out praise. Momma

would. nmma would praise. But to daddy, you didn't do--he punished. You did

do--you were left alone. But, my mother was another way--she punished and

praised. So, you had negative reinforcement as well as positive reinforcement

from my mother. From my dad you only had negative reinforcement.

I: Who, uh, made most of the decisions as far as how you kids were going to be

brought up?

M: Oh, daddy. Daddy made basically all the decisions.

I: And, what size family was it in?

M: When you say what size family did my father have, do you mean what kind--

size I was reared in?

I: Yeah.

M: My brothers and sisters size?

I: Yeah.

M: There was five of us. There was three girls and two boys. But I was reared

in a house with my uncles. In a--at--vou see, my daddy, moving in the house

with my grandfather, then all the grandchildren, as well as the children, would

sometimes come and spend"nights, and sometimes spend extended stays. My--with

their grandfather--at their grandfather's house. So, I would have to say my

experiences were about a size of twelve. And yet there was only five of we

children, because there's hardly ever less than twelve Deople who are living

LUM 115A 9

there at one time. You know, including uncles or aunts, because daddy had

two brothers that got married late, and there was a nephew that always lived--

that always lived with us. So, let's see. Make those two-brothers, five of

we children, sir, seven, eight, nine--my grandfather was ten. Yeah, about a

dozen normally in the house.

I: Where did you attend, um, elementary school ?

M: Pembroke--Pembroke Elementary School. 1 o,

T: Pembroke Elementary school? And you were reared on the farm near--by the f ?

M: Th. no, no. When I was reared, my father was the--he and my grandfather--they

were sharecropp-rs together on his farm. Later my dad thought a farm. That's

where my dad live= now. Um, but we--I lived with my dad -n the farm when my

daddy and my grandad were sharpcronpino the farm together. My dad taught

school in the wintertime and farmed too. He and my--he and my grandfather were

sharecroppers at the time of then.

It You entered elementary school what year?

M: 1939.

I: And you attended Pembroke. .

M: I entered in '39 or '38. '39 I think--I was five. Must have been '38--'38.

I: This was a distance of how many miles?

M: Three. I entered in '38. Yeah, '38 'cause I graduated in '50.

I: Then you--the farm was--what I'm getting at is how--how did you eet to school?

M: Oh.

I: Was there a bus service?

M: We had, we had bus service. But, my dad was teaching in the area and we would

normally ride with him in the morning, but we'ld ride the bus home in the

afternoon. The bus service--I think for a couple of years we rode the bus.

I: Um-hum. (Affirmative) Do you recall, uh, approximately the year, uh, bus

LUM 115A 10

service began in county schools?

M: No. Probably it was going--I would think it was probably going on in 1938.

In Pembroke I believe we had two busses.

I: Okay, two busses.

M: Their numbers were 31 and 69--number 59 and number 31.

I: Who, who drove the busses at this time? Were they, teachers, or. .

M: Yeah, teachers drove them. Let's see who else. Osmond Lowry drove one bus.

Who drove the other bus? See, now there's Tracey Sampson--not Tracey but

Tracey's brother, Mr. Sampson. What was his name? I don't know. 2
1L'c C C Aoo I i-c-J-co ^-c( Ctc'ipLu (jrrL .27 -I-A -h? ,t/c
I: P t- ---from----so I, acfli, ;Sm 4

M: I don't know. Probably not, becuase we always did have to pick cotton. Is

that what you mean?

I: What I was wondering, is that Pembroke was probably, as far as, uh, the Indian

schools were built in that period of time, fairly large, and I was wondering

how, the mechanics of actually using two busses to transport all of the

students. .

M: Oh. Sometimes you had two and three loads. Is that what you mean?

I: I mean. .

M: Two or three routes per bus. You'ld--one bus would take this route and deliver

those kids, come back. take another route, and sometimes as many as three

routes per bus.

I: Hm-hum. Did, uh. .

M: All of them made two routes--two loads -fJriS- +/L. - ,o .

I: Did, uh--is there anything--in all your high school--a teacher or a subject you,

that you particularly liked?

M: Yeah. I always liked school. I always liked my teachers. I can pretty well

remember them all. And I always--the thing that really sticks out in my mind

is reading in the first grade. and learning to write, and arithmetic about the

LUM 115A 11

thirdor fu h grade. That really stands out in my mind. And History about

the, uh. seventh grade--sixth or seventh grade.

I: What sort of, uh, social activities went on in your elementary school at this


M: When you say social activities, do you mean on school break?

I: Any special--special parties?

M: Not many then. Not many. We might have had--near the end of school we had a

series of programs like an operetta.

I: An operetta?

M: Yeah. What is an operetta *o ? You know it's a musical. It's, um,

it's, uh, presented by--by the children of the school where--where they sing

as a group, and you've got little actors. and those kind of little things go

on. Um, and then in the fall we had a box supper. Box suppers are used to

raise funds for the school. A box supper is where girls would bring boxes--you

know, box supper, and you would bid--the box would be sold to the highest

bidder. And the person that bought the box ate supper out of the box and the

proceeds went to the school. And therefore. school revenue. .school supplies. .

I: Was it also true that the. uh, girl--the girl whose box was being bidded on

would also be, uh. present. and, uh, on the stage with her, uh. with her box that

she had.. .

M: With the box you bid on you had supper with the girl, as well as supper out of

the box. Another--it was strange some of the games we played. And, you

probably get an inside into the punitive actions that we had as kids. Like

there was a game Whipping. In Whipping you would have one whipper. He would

take a long whip and run a group. In recess, you might have four or five

various groups of Whipping going on. Like, one boy would run, maybe a dozen

others. And when you caught him, you whipped him. And then when you caught him

LUM 115A 12

you whipped him, you had to be the whipper. And so you'd spend your time

running from the whipper. Running and hiding from the whipper. That's a

strange game. That game I found played nowhere except at Pembroke. I don't

know how it became a part of the culture or what happened--how it got there.

But Whip, Whip-a-crack, or Leap Frog, all these other games that you have to

play when you don't have any supplies--you don't have a ball, you don't have

anything to play with, so you make your own game.

I: Did--are you saying the teachers didn't supervise any activities during recess.

M: Oh, no. There was no supervised activities because there was nothing to

supervise. Unless you could play hopscotch, maybe. but the girls would play

hopscotch and the boys would play whipping. And then it was strings the first

few weeks when school begin in the fall. For the campus would grow up during

the summertime. and a lawnmower--you know, regular haymowing machine--and

the farmers would come and cut the campus. Cut the grass down. That.would

be time for school. When you get about close to .time for school, thev'ld come

and cut the grass. That was the only time it was cut--in the fall. And so,

first two or three, uh, weeks of school, you had a lot of hay. And you'ld play

tumble re_ in the hay. You'ld get a pile of hay and you'ld run and jump

on it. Try to -t{t e over the piles of hay until all the hay was worn

out. And after the hay was worn out. you'ld play whipping.

I: Didn't the boys, uh, devise any sort of games involving--test their, uh, strength?

M: Yeah. They played'wrestling. Normally wrestling would be played on the hay

in the fall more than in the winter, because in the winter the game was pretty

much whipping. You did activities where you could run to stay warm.

I: The wrestling games, were they more or less individual, uh, one to one combat?

M: Some was one to one, some was group combat.

I: Was there any variation of, uh, King of the Hill played?

"M: No. No, not in my day. I don't know what there was before'

LUM 115A 13

M: Yeah. There's another game we played. It was Under-hold, where two guys

would square off with each other and they'd try to lift each other off the

ground. And a lot of versions in this game was that you had a whipper in

this game. And, uh, we'ld pull the pants tight, and a whipper couldn't move

in that game. He'ld just try to whip the one who had his butt turned around

to him. So, it was the strength of the two people and how they would combat

with each other to stay away from the whipper's side. There's another game

we played. Um, Jumping. Jumping over a ditch nearby, and we'd go jump the

ditch, and see if you could jump the ditch without falling in. And when the

water was--we played that in the winter time, and some kid who couldn't quite

jump the ditch would fall in in the winter time and get his feet wet. So the

no reward was for, for jumping the ditch, but the punishment was falling in the

ditch and getting your feet wet. And we played just running without jumping


I: You mentioned earlier that box suppers were used to raise, uh, revenue for

the schools, uh,,what--for what purposes was this, uh, specifically, this

revenue used?


M: Supplies. I think it was used for supplies. I don't know if any of it was

used for books, and I really don't know what it was used for. The problem

with an elementary school child--you don't know much of what goes on. You

don't. .

I: Basically, what you're saying is at this point in time supplies were, uh,

apparently, uh, the adequate supplies were not furnished by the county or the


M: Right.

I: The local school paid to, uh, go, uh, get them.

LUM 115A 14

M: I would say that's a fair assessment.

I: Where did you attend high school?

M: At Pembroke High School.

I: Yet, when you got into high school you--in elementary school you mentioned

there were no supervised activities, uh, did the high school offer any kind

of, uh, sports?

M: Yeah, when I got to high school, things were beginning to break up, a little

bit. Like this was in the--in the '40's. Yeah, you know, after the war.

And, um, we had basketballs there to play with. We had softballs to play

with. We had goals--basketballs and goals.

I: You mean you played basketball on the o. .<"- outdoor. .

M: Yeah.

I: .dirt. .

M: Yeah.

I: .court?

M: We played football. We didn't have any uniforms, but we could play. We

had a ball to play with, but we didn't have a ball to play with in the

elementary school.

I: Did you have anyone to, uh, teach you the rules to learn basketball and football?

M: Yeah. We had a coach, who sort of doubled as a coach and a teacher.

I: Where did he receive his training?

M: Probably in Pembroke State College.

I: So, um, this was in the '40's then? Pembroke State College was just beginning

itself, to produce college training?

M: Right. I think it began about 1941.

I: Um-hum. Do you recall, um, whether the--the college at this time had a gym-


LUM 115A 15

M: Yes. The College had a gymnasium. And the high school would play its games

in the college gymnasium.

I: Um-hum.

M: And the college--the high school would practice--the team--the regular high

school team would practice in the college gymnasium.

I: Did you, hmm, did other Indian high schools have it? Or were there other

Indian high schools. .

M: At this time there was four other Indian high schools. See, by this time

I was an--a teenager, and I was--I was knowledgeable at what was going on.

They had one in Magnolia Community, and down in 9Ofi Crr,4Community.

One in 7 Cf'rFermont Community. They had one in, uh, Greengrove

Community. They had one in the Indian Chapel Community, and they had another

one in Prospect Community. So, there was six Indian high schools, and one in

Pembroke. So that made six Indian high schools at that time.

I: Did these--did these high schools play each other in any sort of sports?

M: Yeah. They played each other in all sports. The--this is proof they played.

They played each other--only, only, only each other. There was no cross

racial competition in sports.

I: You finished high school, what year did you say?

M: 1950.

I: 1950. You played each other on basketball. .

M: Baseball.

I: .baseball?

M: Um, we--yes, and some football. Football was 4in&daly, spasmodically--this

year, yes--next year, no. Sort of *, .

I: Hm-hum. Where did the equipment come from that--the football equipment?

M: I think dtizens bought it. I don't know, let's see, if we really played. Just

before I entered high school, had a football team, and maybe my first year.

LUM 115A 16

But then it kind of got lost by the wayside. The citizens of the community

could not muster up enough money to raise--purchase equipment. So, we didn't

have a football team in my latter years of high school.

I: How would you describe, uh, the rivalryVof the Indians between the schools--

six hgh schools?

M: Very strong. We played for school championship, so after they won Conference

Championship, they--who won the championship, they went nowhere. They--they

were champions of the--of the six areas. There was no state competition.

I: Was there a trophy? Trophies were awarded?

M: Only a, uh, basketball did we have a tournament and played for a championship.

This would probably due to the cost. Basketball was a cheap sport. But. .

I: If you, uh, if Pembroke, for example, won this trophy, uh, what--how would

you term that? I mean, what sort of championship--what would be engraved on

the trophy?

M: That's a question I don't know if I can answer. I think it would just say

High School Champions.

I: High School Champions. What sort of, uh, social activities went.on, uh, in

the community during--during-he-high school days?

M: You mean in the high school days?

I: Yes.

M: Again, we had the box supper. And, we might have a Christmas play, and we might

have a, a musical concert. By this time the operetta had changed to a musical

concert. And, this' sprang of the normal Cj) oc commencement excercises,

which would--you had things almost each night for a week. Have a musical

recital one night, and have a school play, where everyone in the school

participated--not participated in this play, but the--the actors in the play

come from the entire school, and you'd have a senior play which would just

be given by the actors in the senior class. And we had commencement. We had

LUM 115A 17

almost a week of nightly activities. We had a baccalaureate service.

I: Were there any school, social functions like dancing?

M: Oh. Yes, in.high school each class would have a spring party. There wasn't

any dancing, because it was a sin to dance, but each class would have a

school or class party. And there was a Junior-Senior banquet -fore the

juniors and seniors. And then each class would have a party. That was it....

I: What would take place at one of these clas parties?

M: 'ii_ f Ct/i / c' p afterwards you'd go home.

I: Um, you said it was something about, uh, you're saying that, uh, the administrator's

views in relation. .

M: I'll tell you, it was community views as well as administrator's views. Because

the community pretty much dictated the--the activities of any school system,

where the community does dictate, pretty much, the activities of the school system.

I: Did, uh, you enter college immediately after high school?

M: Yeah.

I: And complete theLUI _ --the four years. .

M: No. No, I entered college immediately after high school at Ohio State.

I: How, how did you suddenly find yourself, uh. .

M: From Pembroke to Ohio State?

I: Yes.

M: The Ag. teacher. He graduated from Ohio State, and I wanted to be a vetinarian,

and there wasn't one--a vetinarian school in North Carolina. There was one at--

in Ohio, and he graduated from Ohio State, so I went to Ohio State.

I: So that--was the Ag. teacher--he was white?

M: No, he was Indian. Abner--Ab Locklear.

I: Hm-hum. And he influenced this decision to go to Ohio?

M: Yeah, well he influenced my decision to go to Ohio State. I don't know how the.

LUM 115A 18

decision was influenced to become a vetinarian. It wasn't very--it wasn't--

must have been an external )Itq rCIcC because it didn't last, uh, too long.

I: Hm-hum.

M: I stayed at Ohio State for a quarter. Then I came back. I--I couldn't adjust

to the Columbus community. And, I came back. .

I: Was the adjustment problem social or academic, or. .

M: Social, I didn't have any academic problems.

I: Small--small home. .

M: Well, I don't know. I--I'll have to relive that, and, and formulate the policies

that had caused me to leave. But, the best I can do quickly is a social

adjustment. My activities at Ohio State were pretty much attending movies, um,

you know, studying and attending movies and horsing around on the curb, or--

that was pretty much my activities, um, but, I didn't adjust. I just didn't
like it. I'll have to say it's a social adjustment.

I: It wasn't--this time would you, uh, travel extensively outside your own city?

M: No. No, that could be a prob--that could have been the problem. You see, had

I been to Ca((2JCl Yeah, I think I made one trip to / 1 See, had

I been--yeah, I had been to V/llmir '7.i, too. See if I had beenito Charlotte.

No, I think my first trip to Charlotte was--I rode a Greyhound Bus to Charlotte,

and had a change-over there--no, I'ld been through Charlotte. That's right.

I'ld been through the mountains, so that wasn't my first trip to Charlotte. But

I hadn't traveled extensively out of Robeson County. .l

I: Tell me, do you recall the--the first incident when discrimination grafted t4ht--

that you was an Indian?

M: Um, I can recall some earlier ones. One of the first onesI can recall now is--

as about a tenth grader in high school, I went to the--to Fermont to the--to the

tobacco market--took tobacco to the tobacco market. And I went in a restaurant

LUM 115A 19

to get a coca-cola, and this boy, or this waiter who was in this restaurant, I

asked him for a Coke. He said we don't have any. First 1-said-we3l hot-dog.

He said we don't have any. Then I asked him for a Coke. He said we don't have

any. And then he said you might get one across the street, which was a

restaurant owned by an Indian man. And so--let me see if I can think of one

earlier. You see, being reared in Pembroke was kinda different, that you were

in a shell. You had been on the farm and- dn't bee n Pembroke that much.

But, I an remember attending the movies for the first time. But, so, all my

associations were with Indians, so two things kept me from feeling :discrimination.

One: poverty and I couldn't get outside the--one: I was in the Indian community,

two: poverty and I couldn't get outside the Indian community. So, when I was

15--say 14 or 15--then I could get outside the Indian community and this is when

I first started feeling discrimination.

I: So, um, so 1 Pembroke, and the area surrounding Pembroke, was, uh, practically,

uh, all Indian. So, uh, at this point in time a person who wanted to leave could

sort of insulate himself from, uh, discrimination by staying out of the other

towns in the county.

M: That's right. And, too, we insulated ourselves against discrimination by--it's

kindly a--from a, uh, a hand-me-down sort of--sort of insulation. You knew you

couldn't Wt in there, so you just didn't go to those places, if you knew you just

couldn't get in. No need to try it, and you have to be a teenager before you

get brave enough, you know, to really fight.

I: After you left Ohio State, uh, what did you do?

M: I--I only stayed at Ohio State for a quarter. I came to Pembroke, and I was

going to transfer to State College. .Ar-yeouready?

I: Yes. Go ahead please.

M: I was going to transfer to State College, then attend the University of Georgia

LUM 115A 20

Vetinary School. But in the mean-time, I got married, and I farmed for six

years, then I started to college--Pembroke, and I majored in mathematics.

I: Why in mathematics?

M: It was just easier--the easiest thing to major in.

I: Your career plans at the time are what?

M: My career pans at the time was to farm, but I just wanted a college degree. I

planned to major in math and minor in business. And, when--my first business

course--I had a lot of busy work to do, so I dropped business and minored in

feawciwy- and when I graduated from college the most profitable thing to do was
to teach school, so I went to A and taught one year. Then I came to the

University of North Carolina Graduate School. In the mean-time as I--when I

was a senior in college, we had three kids, by this time, and let me back up a

little bit. And sqf-well, does this back up, or do you need to back up?

I: No, I don't need to back up.

M: While I was i college, I finished it in three years, I, uh, attended college in

the winter and farmed and leave in the summer and go nto highway construction

work--bridge construction work. Um, when I was a senior, my wife started school

also. So we both attended that year, and we had three kids. Then, when I
graduated, I went to A and attended school--taught school for a year. I

was given a National Science Foundation Scholarship by the University of North

Carolina. I returned to North Carolina and went to school for a year. While

I was there my wife graduated and we went to Maryland and taught for a year.

Then she had a problem adjusting to social life in Maryland, so we returned to

Pembroke, and taught there for three years in the public high schools. So I

continued my teaching for, and taught for three years in the public high school,
+ k- if b f- r
or that is the Robeson County system in the high school 0 And, I

took ajob in, uh, at SandHills Community College. Taught there for two years,

LUM 115A 21

then I went to Pembroke State College and taught mathematics for one year. I

left there and went to Duke and got my doctorate in Educational Research and

minored in mathematics. And I worked--the job from Duke to Appalachpaq and

worked at AppalachianState University in Institutional Research, working on

my faCCl"f~\C for the University, taught some graduate research

courses in education. From Appalachua I got a job in Administration at North

Carolina Central and as directly--as the director of the Academic Skills

Center--I came to North Carolina Central and I've been there for two years now,

at the Academic Skills Center, and I've just been promoted to Assistant Dean.

Part of my duties as assistant Dean will also be the Academic Skills Center

but it will be the Honors Program and all special programs on the Central

campus. I'll be sitting on top of all these programs. I'm the Dean of special


I: You seem to have done a lot of moving around in the past, uh, five years. Do

you have any ultimate goals as far as, uh, what you might be going and where

you might be going?

M: Yeah, I' Id like to be President of a college. Ideally, Pembroke, but I don't

know, and I'm not really looking forward to being President of Pembroke. I

don't know if ideally of Pembroke, but I would like to be President of a college.

I: Why do you mention Pembroke?

M: Well, that's where I'm from, and the Indian never escapes from his homeland.

That's where my people are.

I: Do you tink this, uh, might have had something to do with your wife--your

wife's likely adjustment in. .

M: I think so, and I think it had something to do with my likely adjustment, but, uh. .

I: At Ohio State?

M: At Ohio State.

LUM 115A 22

I: To get on another subject, uh. .

M: And even now. Consider Pembroke. I bought a farm there and so that's, that's. .

I: How, how were you registered to vote?

M: I don't know.

I: You did register in the, uh. .

M: Twenty-two

I: You lived in what. .

M: The first person I voted for was--was, um, couldn't have voted in the '50

election--I was only 17--1 was in Ohio then--yes, I was in Ohio around, yes, uh,

Adlai Stevenson. 'CAJ4*l- S-Th7 First presidential election was

Adlai Stevenson.

I: Upon what township or precinct. ?

M: Pembroke.

I: You registered in Pembroke precinct. Do you recall who the, uh, registrar was

at this time? Or, um, I guess what I'm getting at is what color?

M: No I don't. I really don't.

I: Did you experience any sort of difficulty in registering?

M: No. No.

I: Were you active in any sort of political movement after you--after you came


M: Not really. As you say active--no. Not a political activist. Because I

had a family I had to support, so I spent my time working, going to school,

I: Were you, uh, would you say you were aware of, um, basic political situations

that existed in the county in the '50's?

M: I would say so. Where as much as I was a teenager in the '50's, so in '60 I

was 27. Yeah, something li ..**-__

LUM 115A 23

I: What is some of the things where you stick in your mind about in the system

that you perceived to be?

M: Well. .

I: For example, do you recall, uh. .

M: Uh, in 1950, let's say, there were, I don't believe there was any Indian

elected official in the county.

I: Go on. Do you recall any--where there any--when you saw your first Indian

elected to any sort of political office?

M: No, I don't recall dates.

I: You mean. .

M: Probably I have to back up and say that I was not--based on today's standards--

I was not very politically aware of what was going on, because I was busy making

a living. You know, and I did--I remember people--Indians running for the

Board of Education and I remember when Judge Maynard won. I remember Tracey

Sampson, and I remember when he won.

I: Okay. Tracey was the first, uh. .

M: You know more about this than I do, because you might not be aware of the history

..o.- I remember from Tracey, and talking to Tracey, because he'd come

up and sll me fertilizer. And this was early--you know I must have been about--

when was Tracey must have won about '56 or, no. Was he the first one ? Okay,

about '56.

I: Do, do you recall any of the--any of the issues that, uh, you can talk about


M: No, no.

I: Hm-hum.

M: No, just--I don't. I wasn't nearly as politically oriented then as I am now

because c the movement. The movement wasn't--when I say movement, I'm referring

LUM 115A 24

to the Indian movement. It's magnitude then was not anything near what it's

magnitude is now. You know, it's magnitude then was if you can escape the

Indianism you're better off then having to live with it. It's definitely

different now.

I: Was there any--anything that you could point to at this place in your life that

maybe brought about more awareness than you originally had?

M: Yeah, I think--probably my experiences outside the county brought about more of

a political .awareness. When I could see the advantages I could have outside

the county as compared to the advantages, I had when I was in the county. Now,

if I look at that, my first time of really leaving the county for an extensive

period of time.

I: Do you think this. .

M: Uh, no. About 1960.

I: Do you think intermitant to this, was to show what we were talking about earlier

that. .

M: Yeah. I think.. .

I: .you just--in other words, politics is one of the forbidden areas just like

the, um, drug store in Fermrt?

M: Well, I don't quite follow you. Well like you say intermitant to LL lc"ir.

I: Well, you sort of knew you didn't want to enter into certain areas because that

you had unpleasant experiences allayed you, so like in political areas, an

Indian who was to be so bold as to run for an office, if he lost he was sort of

offended by. .

M: You know, that, that, that feeling might have been secondary, but I don't think

it was the cause of that e C .

I: I'm not saying that you even consciously. .

M: Yeah. As I see it now, uh, yeah, you're saying subconsciously it might have

been there, but it definitely was not a cogni7ant level. I think my area of my

LUM 115A 25

concern of my political involvement. .

I: What Iias--let's see--what I was trying to formulate is in a lot of areas you

tend to be withdrawn and if you got right down to it would not even aware

of what was going on in the, you know, you didn't know the YJri ; -county

as a whole where you might know the workings in the Indian community.

M: Yeah. I-and so you're just not tresspassed upon or tread upon cYou knew if

you tried to become involved in the workings of the county as a whole, it was

an automatic defeat. In essence you were not allowed to do this, :i:n Indian.

I: Right, um, that's roughly what I'm trying to say, you know, that, uh, there

was just--you, you work in a world with, in some respects, very defined


M: Hm-hum.

I: And, you knew that as long as you were inside this world in which--you could

live in it, and you could under--relate to other people and you could--as

you perceive that it was fairly whole, that you didn't--there was some sort

of sub-conscious--it, it was almost like you won't know anything that was

said, but it was something which you somehow acquired, that you didn't venture

beyond these--certain things were taboo.

M: Um, yeah. Okay, yeah. I'll have to think, but I think that's an accurate

statement. And you're seeing that--and, you're viewing this now in retrospect,

as I look back at it.

I: Because you want--you want. .

M: Then when you get out and you really see that your world doesn't necessarily

have to be that little shell in which you were in, that little community.

Yeah, yeah, I'ld--I'ld say that's probably a good assessment, you know, when

I became. .

I: You--you were talking--when your father was a school teacher and he acquired

LUM 115A 26

a, for those times, a fairly large quantity--he'ld be dealing with, uh,

basically, at least upper-middle classes as far as Indians were concerned.

So that, if, uh, say, uh, a middle class Indian didn't really understand,

uh, political mechanisms in the county, you could, uh, extrapolate from that

what, say, uh, a lower class would, uh, maybe, uh, A lit.T '\C1 f Ut

M: Hm-hum.

I: Politics was something that really needed the Indian.

M: I'll abide that. And I--and I think it would have to be broadening of one's

scope, uh, uh, to be able to realize that you don't have to be con--confined

to your shell.

I: Right. Another point, or that relates to this is the fact that when you went

off to college you had only made maybe a couple of trips once in a IQ9F 77C

M: Outside Robeson County and--and they had all been day trips. Let me see if

I--I don't think--yes, I'ld been on a camping trip with the boy scouts, and

the--and we were all Indian boy scouts.

I: The Pembroke troop?

M: Yeah.

I: That was troop 327?

M: Yeah, it was 27 in those days.

I: Twenty-seven.

M: And that was my only time I had spent nights out of Pembroke, until I C

...._ I hadn't thought of that.

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