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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
NUMBER: LUM 109A TYPIST: Mary Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER: Dexter Brooks
I: T'm interviewing Mr. Plummer Locklear Jr.. Today's date is 8 July,
1973. Mr. Plummer....Mr. Locklear, when were you born?
S: September 17, 1942.
I: And where was your place of birth?
S: 4k County, North Carolina.
I: ou presently reside in-e.4krCounty?
S: Uh, yes I do.
I: Who was your, uh, parents?
S.t Locklear, and Lois D. Locklear....her maiden name was
I: What was your father's occupation?
S: He's, uh, well, at the time of my birth he was a farmers Then
he, uh, went with the North Carolina Department of Corrections
and he worked there until he became sick this past February.
He's on retirement now.
I: Let's see. Your father, uh, did he own his own land?
1L e
S: Oh yeah, he had roughly I 'd 80 acres.
I: This is the land that he farmed?
S: Right, plus he also rented farms,during the time he was farming,
from other persons, such as the Paine s and ( a name
over at Red Springs, you know. He always farmed more than his
own.
P. 2
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
I: Then your boyhood days were spent on this farm?
S: On the farm, right.
I: What sort of crops did you raise?
S: Cotton, tobacco, corn, wheat. That was the major things. He
also, in the some of the years he worked the farm, he also did
some truck farming--watermelons for sale, you know.... cucumbers,
onions, tomatoes. He also did some of fa oe
----0"ji--
commercial farming.
I: Did he raise any livestock?
S: No, not really. Nothing but more or less for tle- home use. He
raised, you know, a few hogs. We farmed some with mules and
later went to tractors, so we got rid of the mules. -W& never
really had.... we've never really had a cow.
I: How many mules did it take to farm your land?
S: Uh, he's had as high as three. Then when he got the tractor,
then he dropped down to one, you know. Then finally, completely
got out of the mule business.
I: You say you raised hogs. Did he butcher the hogs himself?
S: Usually he did.
I: Did he, uh, keep any, uh, say, uh, did he raise any meet, say uh,
for the table?
S- No, no, he's never butchered any Aa-...we always bought this.
I: How would you describe your father, personality-wise?
S: Uh, well, he's a good man. He's not a religious man. He's very
strict, not as far as, say, you goin out, datin', you know when
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 3) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:) we were young. But he's very... he's always been very strict on
making sure you went to school and this type thing. He's
always been very concerned about.....uh.....as he always said,
"doin' better than he did"--you know. Or going farther in life
than he did. This has always been his main interest. But he
has an interesting personality,. it's interesting to talk to
him.
I: What about your mother?
S: Well, my mother's a little more relaxed than my father. She's
always been more, I guess you would say, more the party-type
than my father. My mother's always loved parties. She's always
enjoyed going out picnicing, and she loves to travel, and she's
a hard worker. She's 58 now and still employed in the textile
industry.
I: How many....uh, were you an only child, or you had how many
brothers and sisters?
S: No, I'm the baby of two. I have an older sister. She's 33.
I: Your early education consisted of what? You attended what school?
S: Well, when I first started school we had a little 4-room, frame
schoolhouse at the church) ) in the churchyard. And I went my
4wo0
first four years to this small i-room schoolhouse, which had
two teachers for everyone. Then I....then they built a. the
school Hawkeye, so then I started at Hawkeye in the fifth grade,
went through the eighth, and complete high school there.
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.4) TYPIST: Mary Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
I: How well did you get along in school?
S: I really didn't have any problems, ,)any significant problems
that I can remember in school. I always had good grades. I
was always interested in education, and didn't really have any
discipline problems or any problems with the teachers.
I: You were well-liked by your classmates?
S: Oh yeah. I was always more or less the, you know--the class has
a clown. I was.....I've always more or less been the clown of
_1 0As&-He d loioLv
the class. I don't tfea_-r as far as, you know, everyone
putting me down for any reason, but I always tried to keep things
going, you kno make people smile.
I: You were always the life of the party?
S: Well, more or less. I guess you could say that, yeah.
I: What about academically? What were you interested in?
S: Art and music. That's always been my two pet peeves.
I: Did the school you attended offer this ype of instruction?
S: No, not in elementary or high school. No, I.wi...during
my high school, I took a correspondence course from Art Instructions,
Inc., I believe it was from Minneapolis or Indianapolis)-one--
Indianapolis, Minnesota. I took a 4-year correspondence art
course and then I.... Picked up on art at college and formal
music training at college, or instructions. But none at the
lower levels.
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.5) TYPIST: Mary Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
I: In high school, what subjects did you like?
S: Well, strangely enough, even though I don't really know much
about it now- I can't recall much of it now-I was very good
in Math and I was interested in Math in elementary and high
school. I was more interested in that subject than v any
other that I had.
I: What sort of teachers did you have in high school? Any that
stand out in your mind?
S: Well, I can remember quite a few of my teachers, but I didn't
have any that was really what I would class as great instructors
other than, I would say, Nash Locklear. I'm not sure if you
know....he's also a preacher I_- c44 -o5 KtK,.
I: No, I don't think I'm familiar with him.
S:; Well, he was ......
I: What subject did he teach?
S: Well, back in those days, it was a combination of quite a few
youL 5e .
kia- The schools really wasn't staffed to have, say, a
Math teacher that taught nothing but Math, or a History teacher.
You may have one teacher, say, for three courses.
I: I see then..,
S: He taught me in Math. He's taught me some History, some English,
You see, it was.....they were very understaffed, you see, because
all the teachers....everything was segregated.....all the teachers
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 6) TYPIST: Mary Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Tr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:'were Indians, and there just wasn't too many Indian teachers
to spread around.
I: I see,Then.. the school you attended was all Indian, and you
say Hawkeye was completed in what year?
S: I think, uh, let's see...around 1949 ori'50, I believe. I began
school in '48--no it was.'52, I think, when I started, because
I was beginning my fifth year, if I'm not mistaken.
4uX>
I: You say you initially attended a -room.....
S: A oom wooden framebuilding at thej church. It was called
Antioch School then; it was located at Mount Elam Church. And
of course there was two teachers there, and those two teachers
taught all the Indian students in that area, no matter what
their grade level.
I: Did-Pik County, at this time, have more of these Indian schools ?
S: There was one more that I can think of, and it was called _.e
r/ aCL$4Xs.a *(M ?)4, and it was also a 2-room, wooden building
at a church.
I: Do you recall what church it was located in?
S: Masatonio0- lwalex-CL
I: Masaei-o Church?
S: That's above....that's just above now where South Oaks school
is located now, which was, when I went to school, was Hawkeye.
HoE
Now it's South s, since the schools consolidated.
I: How far apart were these two schools?
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.7) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
S: Roughly28 miles, I would say.
I: And this was the total education facilities available to Indian
children at that time?
S: Right.....in the countygat-4=ha-t t-a- Right.
I: And Hawkeye, after it was constructed, approximately how many
teachers were there?
S: We had a staff at the time I was there, i I would say perhaps/
twelve.
I: Twelve. And what number of these were teaching high school
courses?
S: Maybe four, plus the principal. The principal also taught.
I mean he had a dual position.
I: Who was the principal at this time?
S: The first one was....the first principal there was Bew... JImkBw
I: Jim Boe b.
S: I guess his name's Jimmy now, but I've always known him as
Mr. Jim DoIz. and then they had Spurgeon Bullard, whosE deceased
now. And then, if I'm not mistaken now you see I graduated
from school while Mr. Bullard was still there hen I believe
they went to Mr. Hughes OxendineGland Mr. Oxendine's there at
the present time he's still there.
I: Were any of your teachers fromP r county?
S: My teachers?
I: Yes.
S: When I was in school?
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 8) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
I: Yes.
S: No, not originally. No....we had...At the time I was in high
school we didn't have any Indians from-Pe1@- County that had
ever; graduated from college. You see, there seemed to be a
breakdown between going from high school to college, you know,
as far as entrance exams. We had some living in the county,
one or two, but they had moved in from Robeson.
I: But prior to Hawkeye Schoo an Indian could get a high school
degree at one of these two wooden schools?
4L^K* aeq-"R-
S: Yes, but I really don't know of anyone whe.went that far. I
don't know of anyone. I guess maybe someone did but I don't know
of anyone that stayed in school to get a high school degree
until after Hawkeye was built.
I: So, to your knowledge, no Indiane in k even finished high
school until he finished at Hawkeye?
S: Until, say, uea5 about 1956 was about the first... .or maybe
'54.....was about the first graduating class at Hawkeye. 4a L
maybe later than that I'm not sure.
I: Your high school graduating class was what size?
S: Ten.
I: Ten. Okay, of these ten people how many went on to college?
S: Uh, one.
I: Yourself.
S: Myself, right.
NUMBER: LUM 109 (cont'd p. 9) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
I: What did the other nine people do. what sort of....
S: Well, at that time, of course, a lot of them was still farming.
A lot of them went back to the farm. Then/they gradually got
married started families. Then they went into....after the
Civil Rights Act of when the textile mills began hiring
Indians--see, at that time an Indian couldn't work in a textile
mill, at Burlington and these other places. They wouldn't hire
an Indian. And after the textile mills in the area began hir.ag
Indians, most of them now are working in textile mills or other
places. You know, we have some, I believe two of my graduating
buddies, I believe, work at the House of g which is a
you know, a turkey......
I: Processing?
S: Processing plant, right. And one,one...he never did go to any
more school other than high school, but now he's a professional
bondsman. He has a trucking company, and he has a lot of real
estate. He has a large grocery store. He probably has assets
dj" dol ~/ /la us.,
altogether of maybe/ 150,s or$200Ogks but he's still a
high school graduate.
I: The textile mills, you say, didn't employ Indians until 1964?
Was that....
S: It was after 1964, yes, I would say the first Indian I've ever
know tot(/ saygo t Burlington Mills, to use that as-an example,
at Raiford, was Donald Ray Oxendine, who has been a neighbor
of mine for, say, 16 years--since they moved to County.
And I guess this was probably in '65 or maybe '66, when he
went to work there.
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 10) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
I: Was that true also of blacks?
S: Yes, oh yeah. I think Indians, I believe nto your textile
plants before the blacks, or maybe, maybe around the same time.
But it was a discrimination there against all minorities.
I: Now. does employment in the textile mills reflect the racial
proportions in the county as a whole?
S: I would say....I would say now it's pretty well balanced. I
would say that now the Indians and other minorities, of which
there is only one other minority, more or less the blacks.
I think they're getting their percentage of the jobs. And too,
once the Indians became employed in these places, and they found
out what good workers they were, now in a lot of places, they'd
rather have an Indian as an employee than a white, because they
produce more.
I: How do you account for this?
S: Well, this is just from, more or less, talking with some of the
supervisors around the plants and some of the people in the
personnel dept M you know. It's not really .....I'm not
4V
saying that it's one of their policies, you know, to tryreally
hire an Indian over a white or a black, but if they find a good
Indian and the position's available, they'd actually rather have
him in the position.
I: Wh do you....
S: FBa sow this is as a laborer nowo I'm not talking about in a
position, say, in the front office or.any responsible position.
NUMBER: LUM 190A (cont'd p.11) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:) I'm talking about at the labor level.
I: Why do you think that Indians seem to do better than whites in
these positions?
S: Well, the Indian is work-indoctrinated. I mean, ever since...
well, as long as I can remember and even before.I guess, the
Indians always really had to get out there and, as you may say,
use some elbow grease just to make a just to survive. And
when you're really indoctrinated into that type of evi ent
it just comes natural you just, naturally, if you go on a job
you work.
I: So you're saying that Indians traditionally had a harder life...
S: Right. I wouldn't say they've had any a harder life than the
blacks but most blacks that I know tend to be, you know...there's
a tendency to shy away from, you know, work, if they can. Where
an Indian will meet work head-on, you see. But this is ...I
really don't know why that is, but ita just... 1 seems to be
the way it is.
I: Are there any blacks in! County that have made it, so to speak?
S: Well, we had one that made it in the '50Os as a singer, Clyde
Mc atter....I guess you've heard of him..
S: He's from -k County, originally' .we've had...I can't really
think of one that's made any big waves, but we have some
accountants thereand this type, but there's no lawyers, doctors,
or any of this that I know of inr 1'Pl County that are black.
NUMBER: LUM 190A (cont'd p. 12) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER-
(S: ....or Indians, as far as that goes.
I: You say accountants....you mean....
S: I know one that's an accountant at North Carolina Sanitorium
at McCain. There's one in education, a Mr. McAlliste who is
assistant....well they don't have superintendents now I don't
believe....what do they call the guy in charge of the educational
0-
system in he county?
I: I thought the term superintendentt" was still used.
S: Auperintendant?
I: Yes, I believe so.
S: Well, this guy then would be assistant superintendent, then; he's
black--Mr. McAllister. And there's also a McAllister that is
an accountant. he McAllister's seem to be ...they seem to be
a family that's very interested in bettering themselves as far
as education and, well, you know, their position in life. Yeah,
the educational picture for Indians in Poik County has.......
Iiro 2,
I: Has improved considerably these pastyear?
S: Oh yes, oh yes. PLk County now, I think....I don't know if this
is the fourth or fifth year now....I've been in and out of the
county so much in the last ten years, I)pa little lost on some
of the dates and years, but....Pe+k County now...the school
system is 100 percent consolidated completely consolidated.
There's one high school for all the children in the county, no
matter what race; it's located at Ra ford. And then the other
schools out in the county is ...well, I guess the word would be ,.
A
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.13) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear,Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S: ...well, anyway you have say like three grades that go to one
school, say first, second and third; maybe fourth and fifth
at another school, you see. But it's just...it's completely
consolidated....there's no type of dIscrimination there as far
as a child's race, color, creed, as far as education.
I: How do the Indians feel about consolidation?
S: We were all for it because.....we were 100 percent for it because
when I was in school, okay, the whites would get all of the
books first. They would get new books/and keep themsay, two
or three years. Okay, all of the books we/got were second-hand;
you never did get a new book when I was in school. Okay, then
the books would go from our schoolthen they would send them
to the black schools, you see. So, there you see, the whites
were always three or four years ahead, you see, as far as the
books. And we got no type...we had no type of equipment, as far
as educational aid visual aid or anything else to help teachers
to teach. We didn't have any type of equipment, we didn't even
have a gymnasium, you know, we had no....nothing for physical
education other than a post out in the yard with a goal hanging
on it, you see. This is when I finished high school,a" now
you see, you can go to South-4ak School, which was Hawkeye
when I was in school, okay, there's a complete library, there's
a gymnasium, and you have all these visual aid equipment, this
audio aid equipment, you see. And this is because it's consolidated
and the white children is there, you see. So they're 8aa make
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 14) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S-)make surepnow Hawkeye, now I believe has one grade, or two...
fourth and fifth, or just fifth. Only about one grade there
you see. They got all these facilities for this grade. Now
when I was there, they had twelve grades. You know, we couldn't
get anything better than a post with a goal hanging on itJ .
sitting out in a mudhole, you see.
I: Yes. How have the Indian children did academically in consolidated
schools?
S: There's been a great improvement. Now, so far the consolidation
hasn't really produced any college graduates, you see, because
most of the children now that are in college from Polk County,
were say, in the tenth ninth, you know, probably was in high
school when they consolidated, or fixing to go to high school sy
getting ready to go, or something. But now there's....I know
of two that's just completing college at Pembroke. There's a
girl that's going to, I think, medical school to be a gynecologist,
you know o some type of....
I: Gynecologist?
S: Right, something to do with....
I: Women's disorders...
S: Right. That's Peter Row's daughter. I don't know if you know
him. he's a school teacher. He's in LevCounty.
I: His daughter is finishing.....
S: Well, she's not finishing yetbut she's in school and I think
she's wanting to major in gynecology or something like this.
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 15 TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:)Now Louis Oxendine, he has a daughterI I think ehltr graduates
in January of this year s.ki-s coming year. A+-s son that's
in about the third year or so, or he may be an uprising senior, /
.Pnor this coming year, I'm not sure. Okay, we've had three or four
that's finished at the technical institute--San Hill's Technical
Institute at Southern Pines. And I think now with this
consolidation and the children really getting what they deserve
from their public schools, I think we're going to have, say,
'4% e
within the next ten years, a lot of Indian children from-Po4k-
County that's going to go to college and finish college, maybe
probably/eveng farther than that. Maybe into specialized
fields. I think E -consolidation s the best thing that's
ever happened to Indians in -P& e County, because now when the
white kids gets it, the Indian 'sitting in the next chair can
get it if he wants it; if he doesn't get it he can only blame
himself.. or perhaps apparentlyl may need some counseling on
keeping him in school, you know. But it's there.
I: What about teacher employment in consolidated schools. Do the
Indians and blacks get theirshare of the jobs?
S: Oh yeah. There's a lot of Indians in se-consolidated school s 5
in-PouCounty, but you see, the problem is there's still teachers
from out of the county. We only have now, the only teachers O03o
we have from PBe44kCounty in our school system is one--that's
Lenford Rogers. He finished college two year before I did....
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 16) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:)or three, no four years. He graduated the year I started, I
think. But, you see, we have others in Poe-kCounty, you see,
but they've moved in from Robeson. We have a Robert Taylor...
he moved from Robeson. Wenford Rogers' wife, Betty Lou Rogers,
she was from Robeson, but she finished high school and college
high
after they got married. she's teaching in the school..teaching
English. Henry s wife oyce Chavis he's from Robeson,
you seerat jshe's living in the county now. And we have maybe
twelve that are commuting from Robeson every day, teaching in
the school system, you see. So we still only have one that's
originally from B County/ in the system sp this why I hope
in the next ten years that we'll get more...more Indian children
from P-. County to finish school/and maybe be a teacher, if
nothing else, to keep some of this money in the county, you seeD
4tht's going away from the county, you see =this is a loss to
the county. And you p e- twelve salaries and one of them
is a principal's salary, Mr. Hughes Oxendine_.you &eL ha
twelve salaries) that adds up in one month--that's a lot of money.
Maybe more...now I'm just roughly saying twelve, it may be a
little less, it may be more, I'm not completely sure.
I: That's ove 100,000 that you-feel is going out of the...
S: ...out of the county, right, which, to me, if there's any way
possible--I'm not saying everyone from Robeson, you know, shouldn't
` be there. I'm glad they're there because they're Indians and
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 17) TYPIST:M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:)we don't have Indians to put there from Pei4. Well, I'm glad
that Indians have the position from Robeson, you see. I'd
rather for them to have it, then to see a white have the position
^kk a kMni*d
from Pot- County. ISee what I mean?
I: Yes.
S: But what I'm saying....I just hope we get more Indians from
-P1ak County to finish college and get some of these positions,
tood yu peee
I: Mr. Rogers, "you mentioned. Wenford Rogersrwhat degree does
he have?
S: Elementary. [he's assistant principal at South Hope, you know,
and they teach/ I believe it's the fifth grade or something- There's
\
only one or two grades there--fifth and sixth or fourth and
fifth, or something.
I: And he attempted to secure a Masters?
S: No, no. When he got out of college....Wenford is very easy man
I 5,ee I
to satisfye-he's not very ambitious, you see. He.... now his
wife, Betty Lou, is a very ambitious person. She started back
to school after having two children, and the children was more
or less old enough to go to school. She completed the tenth
through: the twelfth, and completed college, and now she may
return and get a Master's degree, you see. She teaches English
at the high school, Pelk- County high school. But Wenford, no...
I don't think he'll ever return for a Master's, because he's
taught now, this is his fourteenth year--this session
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.18) TYPIST: M. Frese
INTERVIEWER:
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
(S:) in September, will be the fourteenth year.
I* Where do the Indian people in Pe-k County shop?
S: Well, there's quite a few shops in Ra ford, but I think there's
more in Red Springs. And a few goes to Bedville, you know to
Treasure City, Mammoth Mark, and a few goes down to Lumberton,
to your Mammoth Mar4 and your (Nedquills?), and you know, the
larger discount stores. But most of the money for shopping, I
would say it's kind of split between Rai ford, which is in .e44p-0o
County, and Red Springs, which is in Robeson.
I: Are there any significant Indian greas that these people
patronize?
S: No, other than the Indian package stores for beer and wine".they
patronize that rather often. But really, you see, since Robeson
is a dry county, Pe4k county is completely wet, other than li quor
over a bar, you know, liquor by the drink. We have the package
brown-bag liquor. But I'd say your Indian package stores is
the most patronized business that we have in Pe-- County because
really it's the only significant Indian business that we do have,
other than James Albert Hunt's say, trucking company which
I think he has about five or six trucks in his company. But he
works...he always works out of the county, you see. He works
with the state's contractors, you see. He's errenty- a sub-
sub contractor for hauling asphalt, gravel, and all this, you
see. So rte...he really don't have a business that patronizes
the Indians.
I: How many package stores are there?
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p. 19) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:'Let's see, there's...you mean as far as Indians?
I: Yes.
S: One, two,...I believe .thee -si-h e-eunty, It's two or three,
but they're centrally located to...well, they're very well
located and they're very close to Robeson County line--two of
them. And one of them is the first stop in the county. It's
the nearest one, you know, to the Robeson county line. So I
guess they probably do...I believe he said...I believe Joel Dew, Jr.
said their gross last year was right at a quarter of a million--'
gross.
I: Wow, that's quite a bit of...
S: That's a lot of beer and wine...
I: a lot of beer and wine, right.
"S: Plus, that's a lot of ...a lot of littering too, because most
of the people that gets this beer and wine, you know, it just
goes down the road and there's a bottle on the side of the road.
ut-s -
Which it hasn't been too bad in Polk County since we got a
sanitation system that we have now, you see. We have....the county
completely supports our sanitation systems and every five miles
in the county there's a Dempsey Dumpster, you know, eor you -fe&A--
dump your litter, and then the county moves it to land fill
and dumps it, and there's no charge to the citizens of the
county, you see. It comes out of our tax money that we pay ir
to the county. This has helped relieve the litter problem e4f-\
the county, as far as wine bottles and beer cans and this type
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.20)c TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:)of thing.
I: You mentioned the Dew Package Store4 $250,000 gross. Did
this 4)ew also describe his clientele?
S: He said that 90 percent of his business is Robeson county residents,
so I guess in that way we compensated a little bit for our
0orce,
teaching orsje-, I guess, you know we compensated somewhat there,
4>e
I guess, from om- teaching salaries going into Robeson, so we
send the beer and wine to Robeso to make up the difference.
I: Did he give any sort of racial breakdown on his customers?
S: I think, probably...well, from talking with him, I would say
that over half is Indians( and quite a few of that percentage
are bootleggers, you know, they're Robeson County bootleggers.
You have that problem anywhere Tyou have a dry county, you know,
you've- ge the bootlegger problem....which that's...that's the
authorities' business. we're not interested in that.
I: How would you..or could you describe the average Indian'q-"
Perk County Indian's drinking habit?
S: We really don't have too much of a problem in -r+k County with
drinking problems. Now we had quite a few problems when we
were a dry county, but since we've went to the beer and the wine,
I mean, people are still drinking but they're more conservative.
They may....they may, over a period of time, consume more than
they consumed when we were a dry county but, you see, now they
don't have to go out there and hide around to buy, and then
sneak off somewhere, you see, and try to drink it all at one time.
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.21 TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER:
(S:)Now they can just go get it and bring it home, and just sit
back and relax (o they may consume more over a period of time,
but they don't consume as much at one time. ie don't have as
many traffic violations, and as many people getting in wrecks,
and as many people getting killed, you know, from being.....
attributed to alcohol, as before. You just don't see anyone
really on the road now, say in Te4k County, that's drunk.
You know, unless he's coming through from Robeson, teile)-.
I: Did....are the bootleggers completely eliminated from ee4e+klA4
county now?
S: no, no, but they're not completely eliminated. Actually, I
know three or four.
' -S4EB --2! Dexter Brooks interviewing w4i--Plummer Locklear.
Go ahead, please.
S: CI#l were we?
I: Let's see...you were...
S: Oh, we were talking about bootleggers in Polk. No, it hasn't
eliminated the problem completely, which now it's no problem,
you see. I know of, say, four bootleggers in my general area
where I live. Okay, I mean, it's such a small problem now,
tLhe nii a ..the authorities know that there's bootleggers,
but there's really no problem there they just you know,
they do nothing about it because they're really not selling
that much. They don't even....they wouldn't sell enough in a
week's time to pay their light bill, hardly, you see. Because
a person may come by, well, he m4gh-gcome by and get a beer, but
you know, it's really not a booming business l4ke it was, you
NUMBER: LUM 109A (cont'd p.22) TYPIST: M. Frese
SUBJECT: Mr. Plummer Locklear, Jr.
INTERVIEWER: Dexter Brooks
(S:)see. A person may go by and pay 50 cents for a short beer at
a bootleggers)say, in -e-91 County where he can go to the corner
store and get it for 35p but he may go there just because he
may want to sit down, you know, and relax and talk awhile. It's
not that he's going there, you know, to get drunk and all this,
because he don't haveto do that anyore.
I: So these bootleggers, may serve some social....
S- Right. It's become in-?e+k County, more or less, just a social
type business. It's really not, as far as helping the bootleggers'
economy, and all this-yhis income-Qit really don't do much for it.
I: Befor to sell a beer was legal, were there many more of these
bootleggers?
S: Oh yes, And they were getting rich.
I: Right.
S: Bb#, you see2 yDring those times, say even before we got the
ABC store, which we've ha4 for quite a few years...Okay, you
had your bootleggers, okay, se4 these bootleggers are making
what we call white\ightning, 5 you know, rot-gut.
Okay, there was also that problem, you see then, because the
bootleggers was selling the public all this poison. You know,
people dying from it) going to the hospital from it, and,
you know, going a,4 getting completely drunk on it,, going crazy1..
killing each other. The ABC store, you see, it helped eliminate
that problem, you see, because now there's really no booming
business in Pet4-County as far as white liquor. A person may
LUM 109A (p.23) TYPIST: M. Frese
(S:)go out and buy him a pint or a quart of white liquor, just to
sit in his house and look at it, you know, and say "man, you
ever seen any white liquor?", you know. It's become a novelty
type thing now, even the white liquor. I can remember, when I
was a child, they found up above Ra ford there, they found a
liquor still that was turning out 100,000 gallons per week.
I: But is all this liquor....
S: But see, all this type of thing's been eliminated now. Can you
imagine transfer trucks backing into a liquor still, taking it
out like that?
I: It's a lot of poison...
S: Right. Now a person might have him a little liquor still down
there, and might make, say 10 gallons, you know. It's just...
I:: Li quor is still being made in alk County?
S: It's still being made everywhere, but as I say, it's really not
a profit-making thing anymore, you know. It's really...I'll tell
you something that's becoming a big fad now, even over the white
liquor--the white liquor went out so much--now homemade wine is
really becoming an *in thing. I mean, everybody now wants to
get him a wooden barrel, and all this other things, and get him
some grape-*sort of grape concentrate and all this, and make
homemade wine. You see, I'm even interested in that. I haven't
made any yet, but I want to get me a winemakerAkit, you know,
because it's just the in thing now to have, instead of wine from
the beer store, to have your own little....your own little wine
factory at house ou see. And the deal government will
factory at-i~e house, you see. And the Aederal government will
LUM 109A ( p.24) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)you to make, per year, I jflieve it's--I don't want to be
wrong now--what is it, twelve hundred gallons a year?
I: 12t gallons? Wow.
S: I may be mistaken now, but I know it's....I know it's so high
that a person here that would have him a little 20 gallon barrel
don't have to worry about it, see, as far as wine. There's a
great amount that you make and have in your home.
I: Do certain people try to sell this wine?
S: No. I really don't know of anybody that is selling any wine,
no. I know of a few, you know, thatmae have it in their home,
and they'll offer it to you in a social drink, you know, but I
don't know of anyone that's trying to really sell any wine. I'm
speaking now of Pufa County. Now in Robeson, I know some that
does sell homemade wine, and what they call home brew also,
which is somefype of batches off of white lightning, I think6>_,
call it home brew. I really don't know the process of that.
I: Do a lot of people in -Plk County raise grapes?
S: No, no, not really. I had an uncle Claude E. Dew, that had a
vine vineyard but then he and his wife separatedI he married
again, and I think's living in Florida. So, his vineyard just
completely ...but he sold grapes, and sold a lot of grapes.4V4Fb Y-'A
he had about, I would say, a good acre or more of vineyards,
you know, had the post and wires run, and the vines running on
the wires,-Tt was really beautiful.
I: What is your occupation, Mr. Locklear?
LUM 109A (p.25' TYPIST: M.FRESE
S: Well, at the present time, and for the last two years, I've
been a social worker with the Pf9l County Department of Social
Services.
I: How did you get into this type work?
S: Well, after the military in '68, I became a social worker in
Baltimore, Maryland, but I didn't like the hassle of the city
life, you know. I couldn't drive my car to work I had to catch
a bus, okay, that's an hour, say to the office, on the bus. Have
to go out to a client's house during the day, you got to take
the bus, and transfer from bus to bus, and back to the office-9-
the same. Then/an hour back home on the bus. So, in other
words, the job there was a 10-hour bus ride, you know, and I
couldn't stand thatpso then I went back in music for two years,
worked the East coast as a musician. So then I got married--got
out of that--which is understandable. Then I went to New York,
and worked with Thoroughbred Racing Association up there. Then
I came back home to get my Master's Degree in Art Education.
Okay, so during the time beforefI went to school. one of the
social workers quit in the county--you know, she was going to
have a baby or something, so went home to be a housewife--so I
was contacted by thenjetnekt at the high school, Mr. Gerald
Maynor, that time, and he explained that Miss Mabel McDonald,
who's the director....they had never had an Indian, you see,
in the Department of Social Services. Okay, well, he told her
thatShe wanted to hire an Indian social worker if there was one
LUM 109A (p.26) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:'that was qualified, and she would love to have one from Pltk t No
County, if one was qualified, you see. Even she herself's
from Robeson, you see...she's from out of the county, taking
about $14,000 a year, you see. Okay, so I knew, you know,
why they wanted me--why they wanted an Indian in a department.
You know, it's not for the love of the Indians; it was to
balance off that 10 percent ratio, you see, because they're
using a lot of Federal money, and they have to have so many minorities,
you see. And if you've got black and Indianj-you know, you also
want an Indian in there; they had three or four blacks, you see,
already. So that's how Ilwent and took the merit exam and at
the time, the lady that was there, you see....they only had
funds in for an eligibility specialist, which was her position.
Okay, so I went in in September, so they asked me if I would
work, due to the funds--the way the budget was set up--until the
next July 1, as an el igibility specialist. Well, I said I
don't know, you see, because of the money,-the money was only
about 6400--that was the salary. Well, but I said I'd have
to have a good raise July 1, or I'll go other places. So then
July 1, I went from about 16400 up to 7500. I got you know,
about an $1100 or $1200 raise there. And then this past
January they took me up to 800 and then this past July of this
month--you know, a few days ago, say a week ago--I went to
< ^ 9-
roughly 8,300. So in a year's time-in 12 months--I've had a
$2000 raise--I went from roughly 63 to about 83 or 84. So,
LUM 109A (p.27) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)they've done what they said they would doognd I've went from
r\
el igibility specialist, and now I'm a social worker 1, and my
position is supervisor over __ __ services for the
county. And that covers all the clients from 18 years old up,
you know-.above 65.
I: What are some of the major social problems as you see them,
in P County?
S: I think the major social problem is illiteracy. I think it all
falls back to.....I think it all falls back to our formal
education system, back when everything was segregated, a"4 of
course, people just didn't get- they wasn't interested--and
now the tax payer is paying for that, you see. We've having
to pay for that with money for these people, as-far-as- for
their medical assistance. I think it all falls back to just
illiteracy. The people just don't have the education to get
out there and really get a job to support their self. And by
not having that education to make the money to support their
self, okay, their health is deF etAd, you see. There's been
that malnutrition there, you see...they've not had the right
type of foods over the years, say, according to the person's
age...over the last 20 years, or 40 years, or 65 years, or 70
years. Their health is dAeri4eaed-because of their living, and
be-eaue e-t r. nrWe not capable of making a standard income
to live. And it's just causing the tax payer and everybody else,
you see,.....now the country's paying for the wrong which they
caused to start with, you see. ft was caused by, you know, our
way of government and our prejudice against each other and all
LUM 109A (p.28) TYPIST: M. FRESE
(S:)this. So, I think if you sow the seed, y-__ 4 ,MW&to reap
them. So, it's their duty now--w3L, I should say our duty-1-2
to take care of these people.
I: What is the racial composition of most of Social Services'
clients?
S: Well, now, over the complete United States, most people will
say the largest number on Social Services is blacks, but this
is not true. The largest percentage over the United States is
white. Simply because, you know, the majority of the population
4tk-e AMede
is white, you see. But in e14k County, the black....in Polk
County, the blacks is the largest percentage on Social Services:,
as the same in Robeson, you know, and all the surrounding
counties. Then,....then, I guess, whites are next. We have
less, I believe, we have less Indians....a smaller amount of
Indians on Social Services in -elk County than any other race.
Even though I know there's Indians out there that need it as
bad or more than, say the white or black, a lot of the Indians
are too proud to come up and ask for Social Services. And this
is bad in a way. If a person needs something, he shouldn't be
too proud to ask for it, you know. And then in another way
it's good that this person will go out there and, even though
he's struggling, he'll just keep, you know, keep going instead
of just doing the way a lot of people does. You see/a lot of
people are on Social Services because they're just too lazy to
work. They wouldn't have a job if you'd bring it to their bed.
LUM 109A (p.29) TYPIST: M.FRESE
I: Do you think the Indian attitude might have something to do with,
maybe, the manner in which your services were dispensed in prior
years--the attitudes of the white personnel at that time?
S: YeahE I would say the Indians' attitude has caused him to lose
out on a lot of services that he could have gotten and a lot of
services that he needed. But he...he'll just say Zell, that's
some white man's something, so I don't want anything to do with
it, you see, I mean. This barrier's gradually breaking down,
but years ago it was really a hard barrier to even crack because
the Indian....you know, and I can see why--if you're out there
uneducated, and you've always got a raw deal from the white man,
then you really try to completely stay away from him as much
as possible, even as far as...back then it was welfare...even
as far as his welfare programs, you see. Because you figure,
okay, in order to, say, get a check up until April 16 of this
year....in order to get a check from Social Services you had
to sign a property lien. Whether you owned property or not,
it said "property that I own, or may get in the future," you
see. And you could not until April 16, get a welfare check
or which we call Social Services now, without signing that
property lien. And that meant the money you got from us....
if your children or you didn't pay it back before your death
or after your death, the county got your property when it was
sold--they got that amount of money out that they had given
you, whether it was 50....if it was $50, when your children
LUM 109A (p. 30) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:'ever sold your property--the county got them $50. If you
had been on it twenty years and, say received $15,000)when
your property was sold, if there were $15,000 there, the
county got that; if it was less, the county got it all.
I: Was this owin. lien law especially hard on the Indians?
S: No, seebecause there's really not...not too many Indians that's
receiving checks, and the ones that are receiving checks--most
of them don't own any property to start with. So, they would
gladly sign it--'yeah, I'll sign it'--you know--'it don't mean
nothing to merit's a piece of paper^ See because, there's
not too many of them that own property. I would say it affects...
I think it affected the blacks more than the Indians, and
definitely affected the white more than the Indians, because
more of them that was on welfare owned some property--maybe a
house and a lot, you see, and all this. Where most of the
Indians on welfarehliving out there in somewhat of\tenant house,
youiee-. Don't even own the chair he's in, a lot of times.
I: In dispensing their services, how would ;you describe the courtesy
of the staff of Social Services?
S: Well, I....since I've been there for two years, I'll have to say
I've been well pleased with the staff there, from the director
on down. I haven't seen any type of prejudice of any of the
workers, the black or the white. And I've tried not to show
any myself, you see, because I'm not the type of guy that really
has any prejudice, you know, as far as a man's color. I have
LUM 109A (p. 31) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)some prejudice and some reservations and all this about, you
know, other things but not a man's color. But I haven't seen
any whites discriminated against, I haven't seen any blacks
d scriminated against, and I definitely seen any Indians
discriminated against because that's the first thing I've
looked for. So, as far as the staff there, I can't really say
that our services have went more to one race than to another
one, because our services are there for anybody that comes in7
and is l6ligible to get them, no matter what his race, color, 6'
creed. I haven't seen any of that. Now, you get hassled more
by the blacks you get hassled more, especially out in the
field, when I was doing a lot of field work, you see. Now I
crety- have quite a few employees under me, so I'm more
hotO
in the office, you know, than out -ad jt. Because I have to
make sure that they're out there doing it. But when yodre
out in the field, you get hassled more by the blacks than you
do any other race. And when I mean "hassled" I mean they're
always complaining about, you know, the department has pet
peeves, and they know thfeyknow they should be getting this and
they know they should be getting that. But....and I always try
to sit down with them and explain to them exactly how the laws
and procedures of that situation works, you see. Because,
they're usually talking from another case over there. 'Well, here's
my neighbor over here, she's shacking with so-and-so, and she's
getting a check, and I'm sitting over here--just me and my
LUM 109A (p.32) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S-)children, and I'm not getting what she's getting,'you know....
"not this and that....she shouldn't be getting it because she's
shacking with a man.' We don't care who they're shacking with.
You know, our manual says as long as it's accepted by the
community....you can be common law all you want to, you see.
A man's covered under the Constitution to live where he wants
to live and with who he wants to live, and how long. You see
a lot of people used to think if they were on the welfare we
could go in, because they were shacking or what you call 'holding
out to the public' that we could cut off their checks, but
we couldn't do that, you see?
I: Yesq Mr. Locklear, are you registered to vote?
S: Oh yes. Yeah, I'm precinct chairman Democratic precinct
chairman in my township Antioch township.
I: You are a registered Democrat?
S: Right.
I: Why?
S: Well, I'm a registered Democrat because I've always....I've
-e
always thought-now I'm not a political science major or anything,
but I'm just going to give you my personal views 7 ve-ni'
from what I've seen of the political process over the past
few years, you know, that I've really been involved, that the
Democrats just seem to let the funds flow more loosely towards
your lower income people, which is, you know, my interest
because I am, you know, .seantly-in between there somewhere.
And the Republicans seem to try to start drying up all these
funds, you see, from a certain project to the poverty-striken
LUM 109A (p.33) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)and other people, you know, even on job levels and everything
else ,different positions. They seem to start drying up this
and 4-4thnk that's taking away from the public a few of their
A
dues because I think...I think in order for everybody to survive
I think you got to have these programs. You know, such as
the funds now that he's holding back from OEO and all these
other programs, you know. He's not wanting to really turn
them loose, you know, which Congress is trying to, you know,
'say you'll turn them loose or we'll cut off your money to
Cambodia and all these other places, you see. So, I think
the Democrats, I think, are more lenient in that way as far
as.....as far as, say, the average man.
I: I see.
S: Well, I'll put it this way....to me, you've got to be financially
stable or independent or rich to really follow the Republican
party, you know, or you're going to lose out down the line. I
mean, that's just the way I see it.
I: How old were you when you registered to vote?
S: 21, I think it was., yes.
I: So you registered immediately, as soon as you were el igible to?
S: Right, my father....yew see, that's one of the things about
my father....he was always interested so the first thing he does
is take me down or asks me to go down and register to vote, you
see....because he was kind of a heavy political man in the county.
My father's always been the type that loves those smoke-filled
rooms. I've been....well, I'll be 31 in September so I've been
LUM 109A (p.34) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)registered about 10 years) 'Co[5L,
I: You say your father has always been active politically. What
did this consist of?
S: Well, about everything in the county/from people running for
judge to people running, say, on your education boards, an4,
well anything within the county, he's as w ho' always tried
to do what he could for the interests of the Indians, you know.
He's always tried to help.
I: Let's see, Mr. Locklear, you're discussing your father's political
activities.. did he ever, on election day, haul people to vote?
S: Oh yeah. He always....he also....he would haul people to register,
he would haul people to vote, he would work for who he thought
was the best man. I mean, he would go out and talk to people
about ....fvtalking--I say'people, I mean the Indian population
in the county. He would talk with them on who he thought would
be the best man for the position in the county, whether it be
sheriff/or whether it be dog-catcher, you know. And who he
thought would do more for the Indian and help the Indian more,
you know. He would always do this too. And he was...he was
one of the supposed-to-be-upstanding citizens in the county,
you know. Even among the whites and the blacks, you know. He
was well known and well liked, and people would listen, you know.
I: So if I were a candidate running for office, your father would
be one man whose support I would...
S: He would've been, I would say) back then. Of course now he's
completely out of politics-has been for I would say eight years,
since him and my mother separated and divorced. But before then
LUM 109A (p.35) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)he would have been maybe about the first Indian--him and my
grandfather, &A A>I --he was the first Indian as far
as politics...he was the first Indian that any candidate would
contact, whether they were running in Polk County, whether I
mean for a position in-a.k County, or whether they was running
for a position at the state office, where PWk County was
concerned. 1-randather's ame was the first to be contacted
and I would say my father would probably be the second.
I: You say your father helped to get people registered. Were any
of the registrars Indian?
S: Oh no. We've never had an Indian registrar. I'm the first
Democratic precinct chairman Indiaq that I know of we've ever
had.
I: I see. Were the white registrars cooperative when it came to
being able to register?
S: No, not....now see, I was kind of young back then., I really don't
know how they were, say, in my father's era or his day. But
even now they're.not cooperative. I mean even now, even far as
0-
back as last year we had to write letter...or the president
of the Jaycees, Robert Taylor, wrote a letter to the State
Department of Election Board...
I: State Board of Elections?
S: Right. He wrote a letter there just in order for us to get the
books open or brought to where we wanted them brought on a certain
day to register people.
LUM 109A (p.36' TYPIST: M.FRESE
I: Was this letter successful?
S: Oh yes. This letter got immediate action. I mean, we got
a call from the guy who said 'you didn't have to do all that,
you could've just came up and' you know...the same old sob
story. But we got some action and we registered that day.
We registered 106, and I think about 97 of those were Democrats.
I: I see. Are you aware that the County Board of Elections appoints
the registrar?
S: No, not really. You see, I really haven't. iirall .es. '
had the time with my other duties to really get down and take
a manual and read, or go ask them the procedures, you see. I've
been so tied with other committees--you see I've been on about
five other committees in the county this past year--so I really
haven't had the time with my job/and my family and other things,
and with my father's illness for the past six months or so-ffive
months-gto really get down to the process and procedures of every-
thing, you see.
I: Yes. Peik County Board of Elections apparently is all white?
S: Right.
I: Two of these people come from the party of the governor, and one
comes from the opposite party, so now in the coming year you'll
have two Republicans and one Democrat. Perhaps you should find
you a....
S: Democrat ......
I: .....an Indian Republican to be appointed.
LUM 109A (p.37) TYPIST: M.FRESE
S: Well, as a Democrat and as a precinct chairman for the Democratic
party, I really couldn't personally....
I: not ....
S: Right....do too much of finding Republican' you know. We may
end up with .....you know, they say for every "Watergate" there's
got to be a "Millhouse", so we may have a "Millhouse" in Polk
County if I do that. I'd rather try to find a Democrat to put
on the election board, you know, thinking in terms of '76 when
the Democrats, you know, is returning to all these positions
from the top echelons down. Now I think that would be more
feasible than probably....and wouldn't be as temporary as putting
a Republican in there, you see.
I: Of course, one third of all the election board have to be....
there has to be both political parties represented on the election
board. Have any Indian candidates ran for office in Pe+k County?
S: Ahey have in the past. Now this last year, I can't really think
of any Indian that came out for any position, even on the school
board or anything else. I can't think of one that came out.
I: Did any blacks run?
S: Oh, let me think. No, other than....not from oe4k County that
I can think of. There may have been one. I can't really
remember3but I believe there was one that ran for Board of
Education or something like this, but I'm not even sure about
that. But eftk County, of course, supported the black and Indian
candidates that ran for state positions.
LUM 109A (p.38) TYPIST: M.FRESE
I: Are you saying that B4k County supported Reverend Joey
Johnson?
S: Joey Johnson, right. We were definitely...we even supported
him the other time....I think this was his second round. He
was supported in Rel County the first time, this time, a4 gf
course, we were overjoyed when Henry Ward took Mr. White's
place after his death. Of course, we supported Mr. White
because he was well liked )seemed to be a good man, you know,
to be white&b ut of course, we were overjoyed te-he- van Indian
get the seat /over say another white getting the seat. And
hopefully, if he runs again, we will definitely support Henry
Ward Oxendine. And we're hoping that more Indians come out
for more positions-Tcounty-wide and state-wide-the next time
around.
I: What are some of the offices you would like to see an Indian ig
in -Pek County?
S: I would like to see an Indian try for the Sheriff Department.
You know, as the sheriff not a deputy. The problem there is
someone who would be qualified. I would love to see--and we plan
to try to get--a county commissioner, which we've never had an
Indian commissioner.
I: Do you have any black commissioners?
S: Oh yes. We have. -well, the one we've been thinking of, in
his district, is James Albert Hunt...hopefully we'll get him to
run and perhaps something .. another guy's district, hopefully
maybe Proctor Locklear, who is a school teacher at the high
school....maybe he would... .now I don't know/by him being a
LUM 109A (p.39) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)school teacher if this would have any affect, but I don't
think so-not as county commissioner, because I know one
from Red Springs that's a counselor at the high school--
Bobby Locklear. And I understand that my name is in the
pot for the directorship of Social Services when the director
retires in January, but of course I'll be resignd-+n August 31,
so I guess that position will probably go to a white, in
January.
I: You mentioned the Sheriff's department. Does the Sheriff's
department employs any Indian deputies?
S: Not at the present time. We had one there, Robert Locklear,
but there was a conflict in his social life and his professional
life so he was.....it was highly suggested that he resign and-
ye haven't had....they had four applications on the file at that
time, they said, from the Indians but....and they've hired quite
a few deputies since that time, but so far there hasn't been
an Indian hired up to this point. But I really don't think that
a qualified person has really applied for the job, as far as
an Indianbecause they've always ended up with some type of
police record or something else.
I: You say the Sheriff's department can't find a qualified Indian?
S: Well, the problem is they can find them, but with the salary
they pay, the- people L-tae- the Indians that they find that are
qualified don't want....they can make more money out there say,
in a textile mill and working less hours. So they really don't
want to put up with the hassle of the Sheriff's department for
LUM 109A (p.40) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)the amount of money that they're paid.
I: How are they able to find whites who are willing to put up
with the hassle?
S: Well, most of the ones they have are kind e-4.ind- of older
men, say. They're not 30 year olds. Most of the ones that
they're finding say, are in their late 40 s or in their 50 s.
And of course they say you have to be a high school graduate,
but I think that most of the one's they're getting are, say,probably
eighthgrade graduates. I don't think that, really, what they're
getting....I don't that they're getting too many high school
graduates, you know.
I: A# you a cook, Mr. Locklear?
S- Pardon?
I: Do you cook?
S: Oh yeah, I do a little bit of cooking...not very much, but I
fouL kvtvP
can......I do a lot of cooking out steaks and this type of
stuff, you know, on the grill. I can cook breakfast.
I: Do you like to cook?
S: No, not really.
I: Your wife, then, does all the cooking?
S: Yeah. She does most of the cooking .my wife or my mother.
My mother lives with us and about the only time that I'll really
do any cooking is maybe, as I say, on the grill out in the
yard. I don't mind that because I think I can cook my steak
the way I want it better than, you know, my wife or my mother.
LUM 109A (p.41) TYPIST: M.FRESE
I: You're married. ._you have how many children?
-rI
S: I have two children at home. One is three. aladene will be
three this month and the baby will be one this month.
I: Do you have any plans for having any more children?
S: After I get out of school in the next three years---you know
I'm returning to school in September---and the two children
at home get into school we plan then to......you see, both of
our children now are girls, so after, say, the baby is six years
old and enters school, we plan maybe by that time to try for a
boy.
I: Approximately how many children would you like to eventually
have?
S: Well, I was hoping not to have but two-if I had a boy and a
girl-but now I guHe ....!I guess now we're going to at least
have threep,nd whether that's a boy or girl, _that's going to
be. f it's another girl, we'll only have three. If it's a
boy, we'll only have three--that's our plan. I think two children
is enough for any married couple, and three is definitely enough.
I don't think anyone should have over three, at the most.
I: Why is that?
S: Well, because of, I would say mainly, the living expenses nowadays.
I mean, I'm not too hip on this thing they have, you know, 'due
to the space of the world and due to the air and due to the this
and the that'. You know,'you shouldn't have a large family
because, you know, because if everybody has a large family there's
not going to be room and there's not going to this', you know.
LUM 109A (p.42) TYPIST: M.FRESE
(S:)This may be true, but who cares, you know. But I would say
you shouldn't have over twor and three at the most because of
living expenses expensegof raising children now, you see.
Back when people had, say, large families years ago, well these
people were working on farms, you see. And they didn't have to....
they didn't have to go out and buy everything at the grocery
store, you see. But nowadays, every what you get to eat or
anything else,it's got to be bought. And a person just can't
afford to feed six or eight children and be working a job, whether
it's a professional job or a labor-type job.
I: Then, what you're saying, really, is that you think a family
should gear the number of children they have to the amount of
money or salary ?
S: Right, right. Because I think you should only have as many
children as,..that you think that you'll be able to send, say,
through college/and get that child/not everything that it wants
but everything that it needs in the way of medical, clothing a
and, as I say, education and everything else, you see. And I
know that me and my wife will never be able to supportcompletelyy
over three children.
THE END!!!!!!
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