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LUM 97 A Wells, typist
Marilyn Taylor interviewing
James Hardin, student
T: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I am interviewing for the Doris
Duke Foundation. Today is April 16, 1973. I am here at Pembroke
State University in the Student Center office of the President.
and with me is a/student. Would you tell me your name and your
H: James Hardin. I'm a junior here. I'm majoring in political
science and history.
T: Political science and history. Is your home ... have you always
H: Uh, I was raised and reared around here and brought up around here
and, but I live now in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And
whose your father and mother?
H: Minor and Edie Hardin.
T: Do they live here in Pembroke?
H: No, they live presently in Fayetteville, too.
T: What part of Fayetteville? We might want to interview them some -
H: The address, you mean?
T: I know some of the area there and some of the people there.
H: The address is 2056 Owen Drive. The phone number is 425-5117.
T: Well, that's great. Maybe we can get up and get an interview
with them. I know several ... I think it's out on
H: Yeah, that's right.
T: from Pembroke ... used to live here.
You lived here until wat age now?
H: Uh, 'til about the age of, well, I lived here until I got out
of the sixth grade and then we moved to Fayetteville.
T: What school did you go to in Fayetteville?
H: I went to Les Maxwell High School, which is a mostly/all Indian
high school then. And then my senior year they closed that
school down and we desegregated into the predominantly white
T: Let's see, your name, I believe it was James?
T: James, in your opinion in looking back on it how did you feel
coming out of a school where you'd, you know, been with your
own people, familiar and everything and gone in a group maybe
that you didn't know this kind of thing. What was your reaction
and try, if you can, to explain it to me.
H: Well, my reaction was I was not surprised at the situ--, after
leaving an Indian school, going into an all-white school.
Not all white, but predominantly white. We had blacks, too.
And the thing that amazed me after I left the Indian school
was the tension that existed between the blacks and whites.
There was none that I could note among the ... and the thingsthat
kept the Indian students I think kind of sidetracked from
their own racial problems was the fact that the tension
that existed between the blacks and whites. We, I, for
one, was kind of amused by it. I was, I didn't take time to
worry about the racial problem myself. I tried to treat
everybody the same way, black and white. And I pretty
well succeeded in getting along with everybody.
T: Well, this is good. But you didn't find it any adjustment
at all to make?
H: No, I didnt go through no major change but ...
T: Would you prefer to be back in an all-Indian school? Did
you see much change in the school; itself? I mean in the
studies that you had, the teachers, and that kind of thing?
H: Well, the facilities, was better, yes. The teachers also
seemed to be better educated and better aware, better suited
for the job. Like at the Indian schools there was, even
though there were Indian teachers there was some kind of
lack of communication so to speak between the student body
and the teachers.
T: In other words, you felt closer or had a better rapport
or communication between the, after the schools were in-
tegrated ? Or were there all students and you
dealt with white teachers?
H: As far as rapport is concerned I thought I had a more, a
better rapport with the, after I went to, not a white school, but
a academic rapport, so to speak, but just friendly, over at the
Indian school I just had a sort of friendly rapport, you APow.
We didn't carry on so to speak. But there
was a, some kind of a, I just didn't expect Indian teachers
to meet my needs as a student and they didn't. I had
brought up, been taught for several years by In-
dian teachers and I found that they did not meet my needs as
a student so that's what I expected after I got to high school.
T: So you didn't find it hard to adjust. The curriculum or the
subject matter was not hard, any- harder for you or ...?
H: It wasn't any harder for me because I did a lot of work on
my own. After I found out that I couldn't depend on a teacher
I kind of did it on my own, you know, after a while.
T: You were sort of an independent studier?
H: Yeah, so to speak.
T: This tells us you must be a bright student because they say a
good student will get it in spite of the teacher.
H: You might say that but after I got to the all-white school
which was my senior year, I mean predeominantly white, the teachers,
you know, after a while, there developed a kind of teacher's
pet thing, you know, I don't know why. But everybody looked on
the student as that student as being the brightest but that's
the kind of thing that developed out of my class, you know.
Most of my classes.
T: Around you?
H: Yeah. I was the one that would always speak up so to speak.
T: We've found this to be true, or I-have, and I wonder if you
have. The Lumbee. is a politically-minded, taken on an individual
basis or a collective basis. You're majoring in political science
do you have aspirations for -going.into politics of any sort?
H: Yeah, I certainly would like to. There's a tendency seems right
now if an Indian person gets in a high office he tends to
forget his background, his people. And I think this is due
to the threat that he might lose his job as a security problem
then. But I hope I never get in that spot where I will. For
my personal sake, like if I would go to a high office in
politics/I would never want to get in a position where I would
have to overlook the interest of the ppple, maybe putting
over my own job, you know.
T: In other words, what you're saying, you have to, you have to
eat, or these people have to eat, and rather than to
jeopardize their bread and better so to speak they go along with
the "yes" peoples, or become a "yes man."
H: They become a "yes man," definitely. I could give you several
examplesbut I don't want to go into it.
T: Well, you don't have to call names if you don't want to. But
give us some examples because we certainly do, we're looking
H: Well, this thing that came out of the BIA recently--the firing
of, one of the, the top man in the BIA.
T: Well, we talked about this before in this type of program
and I believe you're talking about Is this right
or is it someone else?
H: I'm talking about the BIA in Washington, the top man which was
T: Yeah, oh, yeah.
H: People blamed, accused, uh, the Indian accused him when they
took over the place that he was a, had become a "yes man."
And to a certain extent ...
T: Was he a Lumbee Indian?
H: Uh, ...
T: Or he had Indian origin?
H: I think I got my men crossed up. Oh, yeah- that's right. Lewis
Bruce. Yeah, I think he was an Indian, yeah. But I don't know
what tribe. He might be a Lumbee I'm n&t sure.
T: This is wtfe they were taking over the building or where
they stole the documents?
H: Yeah, they took over the building and they, well, after they
took over the building they had certain demands. They wanted
one, was Lewis Bruce replaced by someone else. And they
thought that he had become a "yes man" and the people above
him which was, Rogers Morton I think it was in the Interior
Department which had control over the BIA and from there on
up to the White House.
T: Now I believe we're talking about the Tuscarooras primarily.
Is that not the group that ...
H: Well, they was in on it, yeah.
T: But there was, Lumbee backing or was there ... Was there or
was there not? I mean there was a question or controversy over
that. Do you 'know? I haven't talked to anyone other than
through this. I don't get out in the community except the way
I'm getting to you. Like Will Rogers, I only know what
I read in the newspaper, and half of that is not right.
T: And ... sometimes, I'll have to take some of that back 'cause
I know a lot of good newspaper reporters, but sometimes
it's not so good. How do you see the Tuscarooras as you a
Lumbee? Do you feel identity with them or more with the
Lumbee or do you see them all as one group?
H: Well, let me clarify one thing first. You have certainly
obviously reached the assumption somewhere that I'm a Lumbee.
But I'm not.
T: Well, I thought you were because, I think it was Larry Revels
who has been interviewed beofre, and he knew the study and
the program, I thought that, I just assumed it so this is
bad We should take this out of our vocabulary
so let's tell *hwt you are then.
H: Well, I like to think of myself as a Tuscaroora.
T: You are a Tuscaroora?
H: And I'll explain that. The Tuscarooras are a people who have
become kind of militant, you know, to a certain
T: Well, I'm real happy that you are because I've been trying
to get a hold of some Tuscarooras and if you know some more
I want you to bring them to I) me because they're not as many
in number. So you go ahead ...
H: No, they're not as many /' in number but their cause is greater
I think than the Lumbees'.
T: Alright, explain it. Explain it.
H: Well, over a period of time the Lumbees since they got, in '53
when they was officially designated/Lumbees, they have, :i,
think they have tended to become, gradually become more con-
servative. They have since they, they have advanced economically.
and socially. But they have become too conservative. I like
to think of myself as kind of a militant. And I have went
to a meeting of the Tuscarooras, one as a matter of fact,
and I have found out that the Lumbees, I mean the Tuscarooras
are the grassroots people around here. They are the poor
people. You don't go to these meetingsEj and see Wo#le
with suits on running around.
T: Urn, huh.
H: All you have is dirt farmers out here. They're trying to better
their own situation. You go to a meeting of Lumbees you got
these people running around with suits on, all these rich
folks, middle class, so to speak. These Tuscarooras are not
middle class, I don't think. They're down at the bottom.
T: Would you like to be middle calss? You're working for it.
H: That's W* they're working for. To better their own situation.
Even though they are in a minority and they are trying to
better their own situation. And anything like that I cannot
condemn. And that's the reason I like to ...
T: Well, I agree with you there. You can't fault anybody for
trying to better their situation.
H: Yeah. And even though they are in a minority.
T: How did the Tuscarmoras come about? Do you, I'm sure if you
... was it a split from the Lumbee, or were they once LUmbee,
or did they just pull out and call themselves ... I just
wonder about that. I'm sure you know the history of it.
H: That's a long story.
T: Well, we have time.
H: Well, it goes back a long ways. There's a lot of, well, back
a while -.ago the government officially, they took samples
of blood around here and they found that about twenty-two of
the people they sampled had Indian blood in them, a percentage,
a certain percentage that showed they was Indians, you know.
T: In other words it wasn't just a small percentage, but almost had
to be full-blooded, but not ...
H: Yeah. Almost full, uh, huh.
T: ... At least three-fourths, or something like that.
H: Yeah. Well, that's how it came about and the, on that basis is
what the Tuscarooras has- their name based on there; that's
where they ...
T: From the twenty-two people?
H: Yeah. But how I don't know. That's the foundation of it.
T: Um, huh.
H: And these people have become aware of their condition and they
found out they cannot better their condition by sitting/home
and expecting people to come to them and to help them. And they
have moved out, so to p speak.
T: Did you march with them when they went this week or so again?
When they went to ... left from here to ...
T: To go to Raleigh.
H: No, I did not. I, even though I like to think of myself as
a Tuscaroora, some of the things they do I do not always agree
with them and ...
T: Well, this is like your country, America, you, just because
you put it down on one thing, that doesn't mean that you're
a Communist or that you turned against it, but you can't al-
ways buy the whole package. What do you not agree with?
H: Well, it;s not official, but some of the things that happened
in the community the last, a couple of weeks 4 back and not,
more recent, burning buildings, throwing, parading down through
town, busteing windows out and such things as this. Well, some
of that was did. Busted windows out and burning buildings. I
cannot say that burning the buildings was connected with the
T: We know they got blamed for it.
T: From public opinion, but that's not been proven in any way, has
H: No. Not officially. But, above that, such things as that, I cannot
con--, ... I mean, ...
T: Well, you say you're a militant. You want to think of yourself
as militant. How would go about in getting recognized and
getting the tngs you want and getting the government to see
that you were an individual with needs and here's other people
and brothers like yourself?
H: Let me say this.
T: I know I'm throwing a lot of questions at you, but I'm saying
how would you better your lIe if you, rather than throwing
rocks and, you know, this kind of thing?
LUM 97 A
H: Well, like you asked the question about how would I go about
getting recognized. I think, this is my own personal opinion.
I think this whole idea about getting recognized as/an Indian
by the federal government is a bunch of hogwash.
T: ,/ Um, huh.
H: I think / stupid. Here I am lived an Indian life all my
life. I've endured the oppression that comes along with it,
the educational system that did not help me to that great
extent. I went to schools that was not equally faciliated,
say, with the white schools. I suffer all of this coming up. Then
I get up, say, twenty-one or twenty-two and the U. S. Government
takes a sample of my blood and says, you're not an Indian,
how is the U. S. Government my life, what I've suffered through
as an Indian all that time? But ...
T: Well, it's been said that Indianness .is an attitude. Do you
agree with this? And I'm asking you a"yes and no"question, but ...
H: Yes, I think so. Like I told my friends, I got some white
friends. I said, you could be an Indian if you wanted to--
in the heart. And I believe that.
T: Now what about .. you look at-me. I I; Cherokee. My father
... my mother's English. And I look like my mother. My father's
dark. But if I tell this i to most people they don't believe
it, because I, you know, ... But still I was oriented around
the white community because my father and mother were separated
when I was smaller. So I lived with my mother. But still I
could not but feel, help but feel an identity with them.
And that's why you got the feeling that Indian-ness is an
attitude. Now what do you mean, that a white person can be an
H: Well, he can, by destroying some of the myths that he has
grown to attach with the Indian people he can, if he has a
good strong knowledge of Indian history, so to speak, if his
history of Indians ..
T: And education.
H: Yeah, education. If his ...
T: Indian Studies.
H: Yeah. If his Indian history overwhelms his white history,
what he's learned that would make him tend to be more Indian,
I think. He would be a little bit prouder of the Indian
race than the white if he has consumed more history about the
Indians because they are ... certainly/the underdog and need
all the ...
T: Well, for all your oppression and I'1lragree with you 'cause
I know there was times when I don't know if you could, but
probably your father couldn't come over to Lumbertnn to get
a hamburger when he could spend his money in department stores
or something like this. This certainly would create bitterness.
When I hear about it I feel bitterness. But still at the same
time it doesn't seem to have hurt you. Do you hurt about it ?
I mean, you know, we can all put these masks and fronts on
and everything, but to get right down to brass tacks, do you
feel a hurt? It has to be with you, I'm sure.
H: Are you saying ... this was the situation now?
T: I'm saying your oppression, your feeling having felt oppressed,
you know, as you said a while ago doesn't seem to have hurt
you. You're outgoing, you're smiling, this ... do you feel
hurt inside? You know we all ...
H: I don't feel any hurt inside. I've learned to live with it.
But I have, it's something you cannot forget, but it's still
there. It's still there. You cannot forget it, but it's
something you learn to live with.
T: Do you feel that you've had an inferior feeling because of
being an Indian?
H: Uh, I was brought up with that intention. When I was .-. I was
brought up on a farm. And whenever the whites ..., we
could be out playing in the yard, the kids or something,
playing marbles, and the white landowner came up, it was
tend the barn, and they'd make us go
in the house. So my daddy, my parents contributed/that
inferior feeling. Say, here come the great white father, you
H: But ...
T: Well, prejudice i usually-ltaught, don't you think?
H: Yeah, definitely. And mine was taught directly, mostly by my
parents, which was not their own fault.
T: Well, can prejudice be unlearned?
H: Yes, I think so.
T: Do you feel that you've gone through the unlearning of it?
H: Well, I since I came to college. Matter
of fact I think the unlearning process started when I was in about
the eleventh or tenth grade in high school. And it really goti
off the ground I think in my senior year when I really moved
into the white and black school.
T: How did you do this? How did you become aware
? Was there any incident that you can remember
or is it just a ...?
H: Yeah, we had ... my senior year in high school we had a lot of
black and white tension and one timeit broke out that we, it seemed
that we were going to have a, a racial war., right there nn campus.
The blacks and whites were really at each other throats. And
we had, we had the situation one time were it was so bad that
we had sheriffs at each, county sheriffs at each
door on campus at the school, at each entrance. And there
we was, the Indian people, which was about, only about
twenty, I think, Indians was there. And I was ... I was kind
of outstanding in sports also so the Indian people kind of
looked up to me as a type leader. And it was / right then
that I realized what you might call the"vantage point"
that Indians have. Here we was, we was caught right between
the tension. We could have sided with the blacks or we
could have sided with the whites right then. But it was,
as it came out we remained neutral. We kind of set an
example, I thought. And it was right then that I began to realize
the position the Indian can get himself in, or is in.
T: Seems to me that the most courageous thing to do, especially
you're feeling caught in the crossfire, is to remain neutral.
Because it, when everybody else/around you swinging, it's
kind of, it's catching(and contagious
H: It certainly is. It's ... we, see, there's a syndrome built up
that everybody looks down on the Indian to such
a point where a situation like that they would expect the
Indian to come up with something unearthly, so to speak.
T: He would be the savage ...
H: Yeah, he would have been the savage.
T: ... in the movie, wouldn't he?
H: Yeah. He would did something nasty, like while the wifes was
fighting' fist and hand, we would been out there burning the
building down, but we didn't do that. We stayed kind of neutral
and from that point we. really made some great strides I
thought, so far as getting things back to normal.
T: What do you think is the biggest thing, James, that's kept
the Indian down, the American Indian? 'Cause he has a wonderful
origin and a wonderful heritage.
H: There's several things, but I would say the 1> major thing I think
would/the movie industry, I would say.
T: Explain that.
Well, you know, you know the Luation as well as I do, how the Indians
have been stereotyped / to be the underdog. If you have the
Lone Ranger and Tonto, Lone Ranger is always ...
T: I always liked that program.
H: ... bringing' up the ... yeah, me, too.
T: Well, I mean in like "your faithful Indian companion," I always
that'd be nice to have.
H: Yeah, I always looked, when I saw that ... when I used to watch
that I always looked on the bright side. I'd say, now here's
... they have Tonto playing dumb, he's the follower, but he's
not really that dumb in my book. He would always go to
town and find out what's going on, then he'd come back and tell
H: So right then you could tell he was more intelligent. He was
my hero. But like I said the movie industry has contributed
to you know, build up this stereotyped Indian as being a
T: I think your perception there saw that different than a lot of
people. Now some Indians take offense to Tonto. You know, they
say that they, he's portrayed as a dumb type of person. But
it's the way a person perceives a thing. And I'm like
you. I saw him--- that used to be my favorite program, you
know, or serial when it came on Saturday, is to, is to see
how he got around or outsmarted the white man, so to speak,
to get back to his plan or to save the Lone Ranger, this
kind of thing.
T: That's the only one I can see. Tell me some more that you think
the movie industry I mean that's the one that I
consider is the most favorable.
H: Well, you got a ... well, all the movies that's ever been on the
Indians. You know they had one about Geronimo.
T: Yeah, tell.-me about that.
H: Mike Conners played that. You know, the movie industry has
never let Indians play the parts, not that I know of, besides
Tonto in the TV series. And I think if they would have, and
Indians knew a little bit about their history they would have
refused the roles though. &d-
T: But the Indians didn't know as much did they? i ; their own
H: No, thekdidn't. Yeah, it's educational problem_
And you have, and the thing that puzzles me is right recently this
black revolution, t so to speak, in the black movies. This
black ... there's a thing going around says that the black
movie industry has saved Hollywood from bankruptcy. I would
have to come back on that and say that the movies about Indians
is what got Hollywood established financially. So the blacks
and Indians really got things rollin'.
T: If it hadn't a been for the Indians and cowboys certainly
T: Irregardless of how badly they were played.
H: Another contradiction I see also is the fact that out of
this black movie surge we have this white society back here
saying, these white critics saying why don't you quit building
these blacks up as super beings, so to speak. They say,
portray man as he is, not as some super being, Super Fly.
Or Shaft. But I don't see how they can justify saying that
when they have the Indian, how they started off with the
Indian, putting him farther down than he was. He was down
definitely, but they made it worse than it was.
T: But wasn't/ literally the backbone of this country?
H: Yes, definitely was. Was that ever brought out at all?
H: No, that was never .:-. *
T: Do you remember any movies that was ever made other than maybe
you studied a little bit in school where the, I remember,
I don't know, I went to a predominantly white school as you say,
well, it was all white, and all I can remember the Indians were
kind people because they helped us grow corn. They .kept.
us from starving one winter, you know, starving.
H: :. : os .
T: But I didn't learn until I come to college that it was the
white man who started the scalping first.
H: Yes. Well, ...
T: Now this in the movies it's always
H: Yeah, that's true. Not' only, the Indians not only, what
do you call it? The ... -what did you say? The ... well, like
you said about the, getting the things off to a start--they
showed the whites how to grow their own crops, so to speak,
T: Yeah, they were the backbone of the nation more or less, so that
you could get this country started really.
H: They was the backbone also there. And then after they got it
started during the Revolutionary War --if the Indians would
have sided with the British in that they could have wiped
the United States out there. But the United States carried
out a successful campaign of keeping the Indians neutral, not
neutral, but seeking alliances or treaties saying we were
not ;in-alliance with Great Britain or any other foreign
nation. But if the Indians had of sided with Britain in that
the United States would exist today.
T: I've heard this statement and I wonder if you would react to
it. That, it seems like the white, you know the trail of
broken treaties and all this, that the white people have
always kind of been dirty toward the Indian, you know all
the say down to ---. Do you feel resentment toward the white
H: No, I don't. I don't feel any resentment now against them
because back then you had all the people
going out and wiping out M the Indians back in history.
It was just I think mainly the United States Army. They
would go out and just wipe out a tribe. Back home people
weren't condoning that kind of thing from what I've found in
history. The majority of people as far as newspapers and things
like that they were not condoning going out and wiping out
whole tribes. They were just the armies and it's government's
campaign to advance ...
T: Does your mother and father share this feeling with you? Or
have you been able to get it across? Did you study it in
history and did this ...
H: Well, my mother ...
T: It's not always been, you know, the army has not always been
representative of all white people, you know.
H: Right. No, I don't ... my mother and father's pretty well
literate. They, my mother got to the tenth grade in high
school; my father got to about the second or third,/back,way back,
T: Yeah. What type of work/does your father or ...?
H: Both my father and mother don't work. They are disabled, so to
speak. You know.
H: But ...
T: Have you been in service, James?
H: No, I haven't.
T: What is your age? I didn't establish that.
H: Twenty-two right now.
H: Um, huh.
T: If I can ask you, how do you, do you get a grant or a scholarship
or anything of this kind to help aid in college?
H: No, I don't. Not right now, I don't. I did my
first year down here. I got a little bit. But when I reached
twenty-one that was cut out. I was on my own so to
T: I just wondered if you were acquainted with the LRDA and how
they helped worthy students financially and other wise with
H: No, I'm not very well acquainted with them, but I know they
exist. That's about all.
I don't know what their functions are.
T: Do you commute back and forth to Fayetteville each day?
H: No, I've lived on campus ever since ... not on campus, I lived
on campus three years down here. I tried commuting for a
while. I'm commuting right now from about a mile out of town.
I don't commute from Fayetteville.
T: I assumedyou were single* Are YOu?
H: Yes, ma'am.
T: Do you go steady?
H: No, ma'am, no.
T: So you play the field?
H: 0 Yeah, no, well ...
T: DB you have plans of ever getting married?
H: Not right now I don't.
T: Well, sometime in the future perhaps. You look, you know,
_. What do you think about,
you know, your life? Where are you going to be ten years from
H: Well I think I'll be, I like to look on the bright side, and
marriage is not on the bright side.
T: You don't think it is?
H: But I'd like to I like to look on the bright side. I'd like
to get in some field? of politics in the future. Like
ten years I plan to, I hope to, if everything will work
out for me, ...
T: You're speaking about financially?
H: Yeah. Financial. I'm not out to get rich. I don't like people
who's rich. I wouldn't like myself if I was rich.
H: I Don't want to give some money away, I guess. I wouldn't
like to be rich. I just want to be able to ...
T: What do you what do you got against rich?
H: Just don't like rich people. They are, if a person becomes
rich, I think he, it goes to his head. He forgets that he's
rich so to speak. And when I say forgets that he's rich,
he forgets that he, he forgets to the extent that he realizes
that he is the only person left in the world.. There ain't
nobody else out there starving to death. Or anybody else
in the world starving to death and they don't want to give
off any money. I would like, if I was ...
T: This program here now and the talking between you and I
is a result of a very rich woman caring about i; about the
American Indian. Once in a while, you will get a, you
know, an exception.
H: Obviously she hasn't forgot ;- that she's rich.
H: Or she'd forgottenthe people that's ...
T: She got to know the American Indian, I think somewhere down
in That's the best I can understand from what I
can learn. She wanted to help them, and this is her way pf
doing it. What do you think Oq about this study? I mean, of
letting the Indians ... no, it doesn't just have to do with
the Lumbee or the Tuscaroora or any group in this area,
it's all over--national and probably international.
These tapes will be sent to the University of Florida and
mass produced and sent to the major colleges and come
back here to be used also. So four or five years from *' now
you can go plug it in and hear yourself talk and maybe somebody
else, Larry Revels, or some of these other friends. And
the people of the community can use it as well as hearing other
groups or tribes reservation What do you
think o/ a program like this? DO you think she could
have used her money a different way, did a better job
maybe of helping people? If you were rich, I'm saying, you
know,,and you want*to help your people.
H: I think the, it's a good idea what you're doing. As long as
it gets to the right people. Say for example, people like
my parents. They, if you asked them the same questions
you asked me you would get ... they would probably not know
how to answer you altogether or they would answer you the
opposite of what I said.
T: Well, this is not only a generation gap, this is a gap
of growth. I mean it's just a ... when there's change and
there's progress, too, sometimes. We say it's progress, we're
not always sure. But certainly when there's better human relations
don't you think there's progress, regardless of what the
... after< all, there are Indian and black and white in the
world and.., we do have to live here. Seems to me it's
better that we try to live in harmony as much as we can.
H: That's right.
T: 'Cause all of us have a purpose
H: That's one thing that's in this Tuscaroora movement--they're
trying to support getting their/schools back. I don't
go along with that. I believe in establishing better racial
relations all over the world instead of getting segregated
again.. We got to ... we've kind of imp ved the situation
around here between the blacks and the Indians and whites
also.due to integrated schools.
TY What, can you tell me what happened ... Carnell Locklear
was leading the Tuscarooras 4A at one time. He's no longer
the leader, is he?
H: No. He's not the leader now. He is the secretary of the
Eastern Carolina Indian Organization, which is also Tuscaroora.
They have elected a new chief which is Elijah Rogers of Red
Springs. So obviously, Brooks, Howard Brooks, which
is the leader of the different Tuscarrora faction right now
LUM $ 97A
He was one of the flowers and he just didn't like the way
things were going along. He, he might of been, a little
"bit more militant so to speak. He just moved off with his
own group.and established himself as the leader.
T: In other words you're saying that the Tuscarooras have
split and come away and split again.
H: Yeah, there's two different factions right now.
T: Now tell us the main difference of each faction 'cause I, for
our listeners as well the people who started it.
H: Well, Howard Brooks' crowd is definitely more militant. They
are out to achieve their goals by going to more extremes than
say the East Carolina Indian Organization. Like Howard
Brooks' crowd, they, they're the kind of people that cannot
attain their goats through the legal system, say, lawyers and
things. They can't afford such things as that. But Carnell
Locklear's crowd can. Matter of fact they've got a suit
right now pending against the federal ... in the federal
grand jury- too, for getting funds down here for that group.
And I think this faction is good myself.
T: Well, now which group was it that went in
They stole all the documents from one of the
buildings up here. Which faction was this?
H: Well, when the building was, when the building, when the
papers were taken from the BIA the defection ^ij had not
H: Yeah, and there was a, not that I can remember. As far as
I can recall the defection had not occurred then.
T: Um, huh.
H: It has occurred since the documents got gone so I think that
most of the people that was up there was a combination
of */ factions that exist now.
T: And then they split after this?
T: Howard Brooks in Raleigh, is this' ..?
H: Yeah, he's in Raleigh now. Like I said, he goes to more extremes
to get things, goals. And I like that. I think he's a pretty
T: Well, I was going to ask you which faction do you belong to.
H: If I had to belong to it would be to/Brooks' faction
because like I said he, I think he's a brave man. He's got
a minority if of people in here trying to better the situation.
And with the small minority he has he has gone against
almost insurmountable odds. And I like a person like that,
when the guy will take a chance. But the reason I say this
faction is good---I'm basing it on the example that was set
back when the black revolution was going on. This black
power movement was going; on. You had the Black Panthers
on one side, which were the faction. And then you had the
Martin Luther King group which was another faction.
H: And when the Martin ...
T: I see the analogy there now.
H: When Martin Luther King was in a position that he could attain
his goals legally through the legal system, but also/he
could not attain ; his goal through the legal system he had
the Black Panthers to back him up, implying a threat of violence.
And I think that is what, Howard Brooks' crowd does, implied
the threat of violence. And where the implication of
violence exists, I think it makes the situation more stable.
as far as attaining your goals. Like if, if these people
in Ralteigh was up there, just go on upthere and say, now
we're just going up here and attain our goals, if we don't
attain them, we're going straight back home and forget it.
The implication of violence is there. If they don't obtain
their goals on the way back from Raleigh there ain't no
telling what might happen. They might burn down every town
between here and Raleigh.
LUM 97 A
T: Does this frighten you?
H: Yes, it really is frightening. Yeah.
T: Does it make you feel proud or does it ...?
H: It don't make me feel proud at all. I hate to realize the
idea that people will have to attain their goals through
such means as this. I think a way should be established"!
from a group in action,white'with black and red, that would
make the situation so that it would not have to attain;these
goals through, such as this. But ...
T: Is it not true that some of the black people are not behind
the Indian people?
H: Yeah, they are right now. As a matter of fact there's a
bunch of students from University up there with them.
And there's some students from N. C. State University. I don't
know if they're black or white.
T: How do you see these? Do you welcome their support or do you ...?
H: Yeah, I definitely do. Like right now in Robeson County you
got, it's pretty well balanced off between blacks, whites
and Indians, you know', so far as racial percentages go.
About thirty percent in each group or more. And if two
groups decide to join forces down' here, form a coaltion
whether it be Indian-white or Indian-black, or white-black,
they could take over the county,,politically, socially, and
T: ou realize we have three minorities in tobeson county, don't
T: The whitesand the Indians and the blacks.
H: in a minority. That's the
reason they have a coalition between two that could take over.
But I would rather see a coalition between the three myself.
T: This interest in politics when you think
about it even though it be frightening sometimes. As an
Indian do you ever do
you ever feel fear from the fact that you're Indian?
H: When I think about my future right now I feel kind of fear-
ful. Fearful to the point that, from the fact taht I am an
Indian and I'd like to go out in the world and want to
fulfill my ambitions and there's still a threat that I am an
Indian from a minority and people are going to look at him
and say, well, But ...
T: Well, do you think there's such a thing as culture determinism
being, doing your own thing and being what you are? And
being proud of being an Indian? Do you push that?
H: I'm proud. I push that very much. I think
nothing's going to change my ... wh't I, the way I see myself
right now.. Nothing's going to change it. Unless they change
if for the better. But I never ...
T: Do you realize, you were saying you realize the possibility
that you could be, that you can be discriminated against be-
cause you are Indian.
H: Um, huh, yeah.
T: I think this has happened a great deal in the past, it's happening
today, but do you see in the future, or have you seen from
maybe examples of this kind of thing now coming up
to take his place, rightful place, in government, in education.
Right now we have sort of a shortage of Indian teachers.
We'd like to have Indian professors alot more
of them, we have somewhere on: this campus.
H: Yeah. I think the Indians are definitely moving up. You got
these, in the movie industry would be an example, we got a
alot of people are always saying, why don't the Indians
play in movies? But they don't realize the fact that we got
all kind of movie, Indians that are movie stars over there.
Burt Reynolds, Marlon Brando, just to name a few of the
T: Name me some country western stars that's ---besides Ray
Pr--, what's his name, Ray Price.
H: Country western stars.
T: Johnny Cash ....
H: Well, I guess ...
T: He's poured alot of money into this, not this study, but to
help the Indians with scholarships and so on.
H: Like Burt Reynolds ... uh, Marion Brando just refused the
Oscar for ... in the treatment of the Indians. It's definitely
an awakening there in my mind.
T: Is Marion Brando an Indian or is he white and this is just his
way of protesting?
H: Uh, he's supposed to be an Indian.
T: He is?
H: From what he says, I don't know what tribe.
T: Nobody ever thought this until this issue came up.
H: Marion Brando's ...
T: I never identified/with Indian, white or anything. He was just
a movie star taht I always went to see when he was playing
if A I could.
H: Well, they might have, ... when ... I feel tot this is my own
opinion. Probably when they went to Hollywood to get a job as
a movie star, looking for a job, they probably didn't say,
"I'm an Indian. I want to be a movie star."
H: they just got into it and after they got into it and got established
they came out and said, "I'm an Indian. I'm.
Whereas in politics they couldn't do this; they'd a lost
their job. But now ...
T: Right. Did you see the movie "Billy Jack"?
T: It involved a lot of young people What did you think of this
H: I saw the movie twice. It was a ...
T: Well, who was the star? I don't remember.
H: Well, ...Tim McGlaflin I think, or Tom McGlaflin I cant
remember the first name. I ought to know it.
T: I saw it twice or three times. I think I took my mother to see
it the last time.
H: They said that he was part Indian somewhere but I don't
know for sure. But ... the situation, well, say they got a
scene there where Indians kids are in:a restua S, you know,
cafe, and I'm pretty situation that a situation like this
still exists, I'm not just around here.
T: They wouldn't serve them in the cafe is that right?
T: And then carrying out their
H: The situation don't exist/around here now. It probably used
to. I never did get out in the world back then when I was
coming up too much. But I'm pretty, I hate to realize
T: Have you ever thought of passing for white because you
very well could?
H: No, I never have. And if I could, I would, I wouldn't. And
I don't think I ... I'd never give it any thought like that.
T: I didn't mean the question to be offensive. I know at times
it's considered by, you know, different people.
..... End side 1.
SIDE 2, Tape A
T: I believe you were telling me ... let this tape run on a little
bit so we'll get, be 'sure and get all of it. I believe
you were telling me simt ng about your sister that lives up
North. ... What were you saying?
H: I said, up there, when she comes home / visits, she says
that up there you're either white or black. And she says
there's no such thing as Indian. I guess she has not gotten
out of the city limits 'cause I know there's Indian tribes up
there. The Tuscarooras is one. And, but she says, up there
you're either black or white. And I would not like to get
in any situation like that where I'd either be white or black.
I don't want to change what I am. I don't want to become
anything that I'm not.
T: Well, if you went up North what would you do to draw attention
to your Indian-ness?
H: I wouldn't go out and try to on purpose, purposely, I can't
say it, anyway, I wouldn't go out and try to draw attention to
myself on purpose as being an Indian. And if anyone asks me
what I am or was, is, I would certainly stand up and say I'm
an Indian. And if I went to work at some place and it mattered
rather what race I was I would definitely stop and say I'm an
Indian if it meant I would not get the job.
T: In other words when it's come to the application where it
says t "race," you wouldn't put "white."
T: Not if it meant you would get the job if you __
H: If I went to fill out an application and it had "black," "white,"
or "other" on there I would just put a line through the
"other" and add "Indian." I would not sit back and let my
name, self, be classified as "other" 'cause there's too many
T' Whta do $ you feel about dating? You i know interracial dating.
Dating white girls, dating black girls.
H: I think it's great if there's an understanding between the
two, say if I wanted to date a black girl. I have a pretty
good knowledge of black history and what's going on in the
black world right now. And if she had a pretty good outlook
on Indian history. And in the situation right now we could
get along fine. But if she went in there with one ideal, "I
am black," you know, and so what. The date would not turn out
too good. would have to have some basis for com-
munication. She would have to have an understanding of me
as what I am, and I as her, what she is.
T: How do you feel about interracial, with Indian and white dating?
H: Well, I think there's nothing wrong with f it. I don't see
anything wrong with it and I ...
T: Have you had experiences or is that getting too personal? ...
H: I dated a white girl before and attempted to date black. girls.
You. might say I'm a liberal in that sense. I don't know too
many people Still working ...
T: Well, I'm sorry ...
H: Still working on the black girl, but uh, it's not too personal.
T: Well, good enough.
H: That's personal, it's just ...
H: But I've dated white girls and even though they shun the subject
of me being an Indian, we still got along pretty well.
T: Well, do you find that they are more on the awares, so to speak,
as you, as an Indian, or a male or what would the, how would
you take that, or do you see any difference at all in these
H: Well, going out with a white girl, you know, there's, white
society has the idea about the Indian being below the white
society in class and everything.. And the white girl has a
fear of seen with an Indian. And everybody's going to look down on
us on our race, you know. But I don't ...
T: You feel this is true?
H: Yes, it still exists here. But she might think that. But
if I was I would definitely feel they're equal and
tell anybody's equal that was in the crowd looking. No matter
what race he was. Far as being human, being personal, being
T: Have you found that when you really get to know people that race
H: Uh, ...
T: I mean when you really get to know them, I'm talking about. It
may be in a class, it may be on a ball team, it may be in a,
what's your thing in sports? What do you like best?
H: I'm on a basketball team.
T: Basketball. Well, here :i/ certainly integrated. Have you
noticed that, or have you had an opportunity to have the
H: Yeah, they ... I was on an integrated team my senior year in
high school. And like I said, I wasithe only Indian on the team
and the situation was so bad between the blacks and whites that
the blacks would come to practice session with knives in
their socks, so to speak.
T: Well, you were, you just came on in a t bad time.
H: Yeah, I was definitely thrown in a barrel with a lot of ... rotten
apples, so to speak.
T: I'd have to agree to that with the knives certainly. I believe
I'd Were you ever afraid to go to
school? Really just honestly feared down in your gut that...?
H: No, I weren't afraid to go to school. Matter of fact ...
T: Did you ever carry you a knife?
H: No,/never did. I never take my knife to school.
T: Any kind of weapon?
H: No, not that I can remember, I never have.
T: That seems impractical when everybody else is.
H: I don't ever remember carrying a knife to school.
T: But you are able to defend yourself with your body and hands
and that kind of thing probably.
H: Yeah. And I think ./ I could, but I'd rather defend myself
verbally. I'd A rather talk a man out of a fight before I
T: I agree with that.
H: But in a situation like that I would have probably been in a
position to talk myself out of it. got between
the two and made a difference But uh, your first question
was what now? About after you get to know a person ...
T: If you really get to know a person even though they are of
a different race than you does the .race seem to sort of fade
H: It fades, it fades into the background so to speak. Like I
live in a trailer park right now. My next door neighbors
all of them -mostly are white. And my next door neighbor,
right next door, is my best friend. He's white.
T: Um, I find this true.
H: When we get around each other we joke about the Indians and
joke about whites. But we're just carrying on foolishness.
H: Still there, there's still the possibility if he says anything
wrong it might hit a nerve.
H: But I understand. And I can say things that would hit his
nerves. But we try to ...
T: If you do it in a friendly manner.
H: Yeah. Do it in a friendly manner. Race kind of fades into
the background, but it never fades from existence
T: Uh, huh.
H: Still, it's always there between either, it doesn't matter if
you're white and black and you're good friends, best friends.
T: What about if you marry somebody of another race? How would
you feel you could live with this' or adjust to it?
H: Well, ...
T: You know, we see very much of that now.
H: I think if I was, would marry say, alright, I don't think it's
top personal a thing, but if I say, if I was going to marry
out side my race right now I would: marry a black girl.
T: You have your reasons for this.
H: Yeah, I have my reasons definitely because our, both/our
histories are similar. Indian, black and white history are
similar. And from that, not from that alone, I think we would
have something common in our background, so to speak. We
could get along better.
T: considering minorities at least on a
national scale anyway. Well, we saw that ... with the board
of education where two minorities would go out, the Indians and
the black man sided so he outvoted the whites. Sometimes
two minorities together can be as powerful as ...
H: Yes, the can.
T: ... as the majority.
H: Like you said if I was to marry a person outside my race and
I married a black I would probably have to leave the community
I live in and go somewhere else. And I would probably never
be welcome back in my home, but that wouldn't matter to me.
T: Do you think your mother and father would disown i4 you com-
pletely for this? If you married outside your race.
H: Yeah, they would, they would ... from, say they heard I,/they heard
that. I :had married a black girl they would disclaim me.
But if I ...
T: What if you married a white girl? Would they have felt that
you had come up on the scale?
H: Yeah, they definitely would.
T: And they wouldn't disown you?
H:1' No, they wouldn't. That's the way it is right now. I've got
two sisters that's married to white guys and they're welcome
at home any time. But if I married a white girl, I mean a
black girl, I would be an outcast. But if I established some
kind of communicative situation where I could bring her to
the ... to my daddy and momma, get her introduced and let
them get to know her, why, the situation would change probably.
But I wouldn't jump off and marry a black girl just for the
fun of it.
T: No. Just to see what the reaction would be. Don't do that.
It's not that much fun.
T: Oh, certainly. We all do that. That's normal. Uh, how
do you feel about drugs? Marijuana, I'm speaking of. You
know, well, I'm not quite so young, but we all have questions
or wonder about it if we have it. Do you think it ought to
be legalized or at least liberalized to a sense of,maybe
like alcohol, you know, controlled. And this way, you're sure
to get something pure and not a bunch of really, just, hayseeds
or grass or something. Or even something more dangerous.
H: I think marijuana should be legalized. So far as things like
acid and, acid, LS-, heroin, stuff like that should be
at the bottom of the sea. marijuana ...
T: Have you had any experience with'it? Or would that be incrimina-
ting, if you answered that?
H: No, I'll answer the question. I never mess with any of that
stuff. But I have known a lot of people that have messed,
smoked pot so to speak. Matter of fact, oh, I better not
say that, but ...
T: that's alright.
K: Anyway, I think it should be legalized because ...
T: You've seen enough of it to know that it ...
H: Yeah, it's not, it's up to the person. He has to ... just like
alcohol and beer, you got to control the thing. But it should
be legalized definitely.
T: You know we live, according to most people, you know, the critics
and so on, of/generations, that we live in 4 a liberal age
today; we have a lot of nudity, and this kind of thing. Trial
marriages, pre-marital sex, what are your ideas on this? Do
you expect to marry a virgin?
H: Uh, huh.
T: Or would you want to even? Just give us your comments on this.
H: You say we're living in a liberal age. I don't ... definitely
agree with that.
T: You don't agree with that?
H: No, I don't. From a historical point of view I wouldn't because
history has always been a gradual liberal process so to speak.
And this is just one, nudity aid all of this, is just one of the
things that's going to occur and due to the liberal processes that
happened way back. Just a gradual building up. But it's just
the liberal process going on. Maybe ten years from now all
of us will be walking around completely naked, but this would
be just ...
T: Do you think that would ever ?
H: There'a a chance it might, yeah.
T: They do it in the movies all the time.
H: Yeah, but ... and in nudist camps right how. But as far as ...
T: Would you run around naked all the time?
H: If it was with the times, yes, and I was taught in the
times, I would. I wouldn't ... Right now it's not a part of the
T: So you'd feel really uncomfortable?
H: Yeah, definitely.
T: Well, let's get back to the dating attitudes. Do you feel the
girl you marry ... expect it?
H: No, I wouldn't, I wouldn't expect it, but, and I wouldn't
prefer it. I wouldn't prefer a virgin because I don't expect to
marry, I hope not if I ever marry, I hate to even think about it.
T: You're a typical bachelor, but one of these days you're going
to get in trouble with your heart, but that's all right.
H: Well, anyway, I would ...
T: Those that are against it the most sometimes it really hits.
H: All at one time, I hope not.
H: Well, anyway, ...
T: No, not until you get through with your studies anyway because
I think you have a bright / And I want to see you go
through with it.
H: I'll go as far as I can.
T: A wife does hold you back.
H: Yeah, I think having a girlfriend ...
T: You have to
H: But I don't ... I don't prefer a virgin. If I were to get married
I wouldn't prefer one or /. would I expect to marry one. And I
don't want to marry for sex anyway.
T: What would you want to marry for?
H: ... all sorts of ... I would want to marry for, for companionships.
People, a person I could talk to. I like to talk,
Probably found that out by listening to me. But I like to talk.
I like a person who, I want to marry a pers--, the .'kind of
girl I want ... the most important right now to me right now.
This might change so far as marriage is concerned. Right now
the girl I would want to marry, I would want her to share the
majority of my views on everything.
T: She couldn't think for herself?
H: Yeah, she could think for herself, but ...
T: As long as she thought your way? What about Women's Lib?
H: There's ... I think ... Women's Lib, ...
T: Do you think she'd be d equal to you? Regardless of her color or
H: I'm for Women's Lib, yeah. I'm for anything that has equality in
it. 'Cause ...
T: But what you're saying you would like to be compatible.
H: Yeah. Definitely.
T: Not just necessary to think your way because ...
H: If you disagree, and if you could substantiate or tell me why
she disagrees, I would go along with it. I'm very, I
like to look on myself as being willing to compromise.
T: Have you thought about becoming a member of the debating team?
H: Yes, I have. As a matter of fact I was HLdf a couple of times
to join but I never did.
T: Well, it takes a lot of time; I think you ought to consider it
because I think you'd contribute / and it's good training
It teaches you to think standing on your'feet. And I feel your
potential is good in whatever field you want to go in. I think
you probably would do great in politics; Party Politics in
America --I noticed you've got a textbook here.
T: And The New Indians--whose course is this under?
H: This is, under Adolph Dial. He is head of the Indian Studies
Program here. It just started this .
T: I believe we have an interview on him. He's also writing a book
about the origin of the Lumbee, or is it the origin of the Indian?
H: Yeah, it's mostly the Lumbee. Matter of fact if he saw this
cover, he'd probably throw me out of class because that's not the
text we cutting it out of a newspaper.
T: Oh, yeah.
H: He is a .
T: I want an interview with Howard Brooks
H: Well, the old, I bet you could get an interview with him
till he gets back from Raleigh, unless you want
to go to Raleigh. But they have meetings every Wednesday night.
Do you usually go to their meetings?
H: I've only been to one. J fg di a qaU t______-
T: Do you to go to more?
H: Yeah. I keep, I follow them in the, I follow the events, what's
going on in the newspaper and what Howard Brooks is doing. And
Im pretty opinionated about everything that's going on.
T: Well, you to keep talking for your people
because you're doing a wonderful job. We need more like you.
And don't falter back. I don't ... when it comes to saying,
"I'm an Indian" I think you got the right ideas. And just keep them
and don't lose them.t
H: Doubt I ever lose them.
T: And James, I want to thank you so much for this interview. I
hate to cut you off, but I know the time is getting drawn
out for you. You're getting tired and ...
H: Like I said, I K like to talk.
T: Well, we'd like for you to go on, but I know that it's it
is getting late. And thank you so much because it's been a
great contribution having an interview with you.
H: Certainly welcome.
T: And thank you again.
......... end of interview.