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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 95A S. Wells, typist
Marilyn Taylor interview w/
Ed Watkins
4/17/73
T: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I'm recording for the Doris Duke
Foundation. I'm,at Pembroke State University at the Human
Services Center. Today is April 17, 1973. With me is Mr. Ed
Watkins, who is head of this center, and he has kindly consented
to give us an interview. Would you tell us your full name, sir?
W: My name is Edward D. Watkins)III.
T: The third. And what is your address?
W: My address is Box 91, Pembroke. I can't give you the exact street
address because we don't have a ... I live right across from the
college in the town of Pembroke.
T: Is that the College Terrace area?
W: No, it's on the other side of the tracks.
T: Oh, I see. I was thinking that you did. Let me ask you, are
you married?
W: Yes, I am.
T: Do you have children?
W: Yes, I have one child whoW three and a half years old.
T: Three and a half. Is your wife from around here or ...?
W: No, my wife is ... both of us are originally from Missouri.
And she ... we're both from Springfield, Missouri. And we
came out here to Jort Bragg about five years ago with the
service.
T: You were in the military service?
LUM 95A
2
W: I was an instructor at the John F. Kennedy Institute for Military
SAssistant- for two- years. With the Army.
T: Then perhaps you knew Mr. Courtner who is a Dean of Affairs, uh,
Student Affairs here?
W: Yes, I used to teach some classes for him at night school at N.C.
State.
T: How did you get interested ... first of all, I want to as we
go into the work that you do here, -would like to know how
you became interested in human services and then explain to
us what it's all about. Because it's a general;-you know,`
phraseand it could cover a lot.
W: Well, initially, my concern was when I came here as a sociology
instructor my concern was that there was absolutely no op-
portunity for the student to get outside of the classroom.
All of the hours, for example, in sociology, I think this
0- a
is general criticism, would be general criticism at that time,
in other departments, all the departments outside the education
department. They did not offer opportunities for experience
wwih-learning for the student. So I began an attempt through
the Student Volunteers Association, I was a sponsor of that,
and set up experiences outside of the classroom for the students.
And we had around 150. This was e two and a half years
ago. And at that time we set up these experiences. We had
around 150 students out in the field,and I gave them the option
of either having a term paper or ;.. doing a:term paper, or
going out in the field and working with an agency.
LUM 95 A
3
T: Now you're speaking of just going out in the community?
W: Right. This is working with agencies. We had at that time
around eighteen agencies we worked with. And we divided the
students up as to their inteiSts which particular agency they'd
like to work with. Well, then on the basis of that, the re-
sponse that we had I instituted, I took to the department chairman,
sociology department, a list of courses which I was recommending.
which I recommended to be adopted, which allowed for field ex-
perience ead for academic credit. This was presented to the
curriculum committee and was adopted as recently as last year.
In the summer, in the summer we actually began this program.
Last summer. And at that time we worked with three agencies.
We had thirty people, ten per agency. The Department of Social
Services, Department of Housing, and the Department of Corrections.
We had thirty students out in these three agencies. We, be-
cause of the success of that, I believe, and last summer, the
Human Services Center was created by the university to broaden
the opportunities for more students and to allow more departments
for students
to use this service; to find experien lal opportunities/out
in the field. We worked with fifteen agencies the first semester
0-
on/ contractual basis. We frkP 4lcjh 4CUjc vteML
contract. And then the second semester we, this particular
semester we're involved in now, we're working with thirty
agencies in the community and we have a contractual agreement
with all of these agencies. This is a contract between the
LUM 95A
4
student and the agency and the faculty sponsor. At this point
we have five different departments involved in this process
and we have two hundred students.
T: Could you name the five different departments since you're going
to give us a brief explanation of what each one, you know, tries
to do.
W: Okay, okay. The sociology department is probably the most,
well, it's the most active in terms of the fact that now
the sociology department has three areas of speciality-)all of
the
them allowing/student- to get out in the field; medical
sociology, criminology, and social work. In all of those
components there is a field component, in all three of those
sections in the sociology department. In the education de-
partment we have taken on some students who are interested in ---
competency-based education is -t new thing in North Carolina.
And ...
T: This is a teacher program?
W: Right. The new teacher program. And this gives them some other
alternatives other than the traditional student teaching. So
we have some students from the education department. We also
have several students from the home economics department. And
we're dealing with them.A For example, the Department of
Social Services and Family Planning. We also have er workeA-
Social Services and Family Planning. We also have, -or work&
d-
LUM 95A
5
the
with/Guidance and Testing Center. And we, for example, we're
very proud, I just had a student come today who had been tested
pL1 G,
by the Guidance and Testing Center and had been sent over here to
volunteer to work in Probation. He's now hired with the De-
partment of Probation. And-Mr. j&t'the head of Guidance and
Testing tested him and recommended him on the basis of his
test scores and the fact that he had experience working through
us. So this is a matter of cooperation in between us.
T: That's great.
W: We have worked with the Media department also. And so these
are the, these are the departments that we basically work with.
T: Now the Media department for the benefit of our listeners
v1 y44k kvw4 son PO explain a little bit ...
W: Okay, the Media, actually, I say department, actually it's a
center, like the Human: Services Center, it's an auxiliary
with
service that has just been created/in the IAt year. The
Guidance and Testing Center, the Media Center, the Human
Services Center, the computer center. These services are new
at Pembrokeand basically whae, what they're trying to do
with these kinds of centers is provide, broaden the opportunities
for the students here. The Media Center in particular, the
Media Center inarticular, is involved with providing audio-visual
experiences for the students, hat have learning labs, And they
have a number of opportunities in terms of visual and audio
LUM 95A
6
kinds of things available for the student.
T: FTis is remedial, is it not, in some cases?
W: Yes, in some cases, um, huh, it is remedial.
T: Do you find that there, I know you deal with all three races
that we have in Robeson County and all three are a minority
according to, you know, leaders and politicians;aR4 we're a
minority of whites and a minority of blacks and a minority
of Indians. Do you find that, do you use many ...the Lumbees
require much remedial work prior to going into these, their
majors or whatever they .- have selected to, you '..I know, study?
W: My experience has been and I'm not, I don't know if I'd be the
proper person to talk to ...
T: Well, this is just your opinion. That's what we want.
W: Yeah. My, my experience in terms of this safatioun the Lumbee
Indians have been quite willing to become involved in experiential
learning. Now it's just, this..is just my opinion, but I do feel
like that school systems and what-have-you being what they are
and coming into this school system, I think a Lumbee is at a
disadvantage in terms of intern phase into the school up
here at Pembroke.
T: Have you had any experience in observing or seeing any of the
school facilities in Robeson County or in this immediate area
that yaedeal with, you know, the Lumbees?
W: I've, I've observed, you know, very, very, .... I've had very
little ... little opportunity to do that.
LUM 95A
7
T:
W: But, but I would say this. It has been my general observation
q
the Lumbee student in terms of intern phase which involves
other students is at a disadvantage. But I think this is
important. I think that unfortunately they have been tested
only in traditionally oriented ways. I think they're extremely
interested, for example, and,,proven to be quite successful in
this, thus far in this experiential learning program. We have
a large number of Lumbee Indian students, percentage-wise,
in our group, that are in the field at this particular point.
And I think this is significant, Significant to the extent
that there's an alternative provided for them. There's some
more alternatives provided for them. We find some kids, for example,
who are not the best traditional type students. Many times
these people get frustrated. They find/ it's just extremely
so
frustrating for them to become involved in the process and they
drop out because these they're not provided with adequate
alternatives. This I think is an alternative, where if they
that
come in, they're tested, they find out -\ they can work in
this particular area, they become interested in their work
perhaps. This is an added incentive to them to continue th(r
studies, too. So I think it can be a, a real incentive to
them if they come into the experiencial learning program and
become interested in it. And I think their general work
LUM 95A
8
overall can improve because they find other outlets. It is
frustrating to me to sea,-te see an educational system which
does not provide for alternatives for students.
T: In other words, if, you're damned if you do, and you're damned
if you don't. This is, this is ... at
least showing that you care a great deal. What are some of
the other benefits that you can see from this program
for not only the Lumbees, but certainly we deal with all the,
all, a number of students.
W: Well, we in particular, one of the things that, you know, we
haven't talked ef-is the extension program in the Human
Services concept. It's come out of our office. And that is
"a student-run operation. It's called Source. -Asn Source is
"a operation conducted by the students& we have a faculty consultant;
I'm the faculty advisor for this thing. -iwhat they do is
try to get out into the community. And it's more not just
through the agencies. You see our program the Human Services
up through this semester have been simply through working
with agencies. And we had the contracl'and what-have-you.
POO),
And-th the students are doing some programs of their own.
They're initiating, they're organizing their own programs. For
example, this Saturday U program. We've been servicing
between three and four hundred kids on different Saturdays
LUM 95A
9
in the Saturday Youth program. And this was begun, initiated,
by our students in Source. Another program is a walk-in center.
It's daily, open every day in the town of Pembroke. And this
walk-in center was established and opened by our students.
T: Where is this located?
W: This is located at the Methodist church which is about a block
and a half from the campus here. And it's on the main street
of Pembroke and it's accessible to the people. We hads a
Senior citizens Day. The young people, Human Services Center,
and Source working together had a Senior Citizens Day. We
had over a hundred senior citizens come to the day's activities.
And we thought -- was quite successful.
T: There has always been the criticism
here and I won't say it at this point that there : has been a lack
of rapport or understanding between the institutions of the
gown and the town, so to speak. And it seems to me this is
bringing the cooperation of both the institutions of the college
and the community working together. You -are working really
for better human relations than just
W: I think so.
T: Or have you seen this?
W: No, I, I think I've seen, I've seen a lot of change happen since
I've been involved personally with this program. And I,
I've, it's been very gratifying to me. I think I live, I
LUM 95A
10
4$idnkt--use to live in Pembroke; I now live in Pembroke and I
feel _lk_ o) I'm a part of the community V now. And
I feel good about this. I feel it's been helpful to me in terms
of working in the area. I, one of the most frustrating things
to me is the fact t' I think that there should be in the
town of Pembroke and I'm working toward that, I don't know if
it'll ever become a reality, I hope it will some day, I'd
like to see a cultural center established in the town of
Pembroke. In the town of Pembroke. And this cultural
center, community center, that is what I have in mind, a com-
munity center in which services like Boy Scouts and youth
programs and senior programs and what-have-you can coordinated
right through this center. Now this is my, this is my concern.
You know, really working toward that end. I don't know how
it would be accomplished. Someday maybe there will be some
opportunity for this to happen.
T: Well, your frustration is good as long as it stays up because
you'll work on it.
W: Right. With the church thingI think this is just a start. Some-
thing that we think, see, we're serving as kind of an information
referral service through this, through the church. And we
think that this thing is going to grow. And we think it's just
the
like the Human Services Center and Source and4Saturday program,
the Senior program, what-have-you, the walk-in center. We
think that this is going to be something which is going to
LUM 95A
11
gradually grow until perhaps we can turn on enough people
to establish tis, this community center. The frustrating thing
to me, one of the most frustrating things to me is to walk out
in downtown J Pembroke on Sunday afternoon and realize that the
real source of entertainment and the mal source of any kind
of activity on Sunday is riding up and down the main street of
Pembroke. It's very difficult to cross the street.
T:
W: Right. That is, right, and standing up there and ... .This is
the thing. I don't know what the statistics are in terms of
crime and what-have you. Alot of people ...
T: It's high in this county.
W: Right. Yeah.
T: And that's probably one of the reasons. There's nothing constructive
to do.
W: Well, I think it's, I think it very definitely is a reason and eXLA^
would be a tremendous factor in it because the studies have
indicated that this is the case. That iAterms of crime that
when person is not given some productive outlets, constructive
avenues/to participate, then that person Vay turn to just about
anything. I mean, drugs or crime or what-have-you. I think in
this, in the town of Pembroke, my real -concern ...
T: Out of pure boredom. I mean, you gotta do something.
W: Sure. Sure. Sure. And I think in the town of Pembroke, for
example, I remember when I grew up in a small town, and we didn't
LUM 95A
12
really didn't have ilot and it was the same thing. Some people
would say, well, this, you know, this is the Indians.
T: Um, huh.
W: I, I would, I would, I would say this is ridiculous to say this
had anything to do with the fact that they Rany particular race.
Experiences I've had in courses of study that I'm familiar with
indicate that this is, this is a common problem. because of
lack of activity .his is also a low socio-economic area. So these
things are all, all of these factors, all these factors
wi-1 be involved in that particular in the results, resultant
condition of increased crime rate in this, in this particular
area.
T: Well, certainly what we know, and it's ot official
I think we've had some thirty one arsons or fires that's been
officially established as from arson. That was last week, or two
or three weeks ago. And it was
you know, way down low on the educational and the pay scale.
They're not educated enough to hold down a job. It's just
frustration And they call themselves the Tuscaro ras.
I'm sure you're familiar with them. Have you had any dealings
with them through the center here?
W: Not that I kn ow of. I don't really ... you know, I think ...
T: I think( are's some on campus, but they're, they're working toward
they say, I interviewed one yesterday in fact. his education
LUM 95A
13
was going to .The ones that are enlightened
feel they
W: Yeah.
T: ... almost illiterate, you might say.
W: There is a split thereF I understand right now it's really kind
of, you know, a problem.in the Indian community because ...
And it certainly makes our job, it makes my particular job,
the thing I'm involved in with the young people they're associated
with with this program, it makes it difficult for us.- cause
we feel that, well, it's a little touchy. It's difficult
to work in the community when ,. you feel like that perhaps
there's all this sediment and residue. Personally it hasn't
it hasn't, we haven't run into any problems personally, but
never
you/know with something like this. This, this could happen and
there's definitely a feeling, I think, of uneasiness in the com-
munity right now. I'm, and this is what I'm, my, my thinking,
this goes back to this community center. I really think that
like Adult Basic Education, just everything, could be really
prov--, different services and whatever, what have you, could
be combined in one center, one large center here in which
these kinds of services and activities could be coordinated with;
in which you really bring your young, and your old, your il-
literate and your educated, what-have-you, together in this center.
Maybe for different activity, but they come together and they
have they have a part in it, participation and so on.
LUM 95A
14
T: A common bond.
W: Right. And I'm really, like I said, I'm really sold on this,
and I hope that someday I'll have, I'll have an opportunity
to be involved in seeing this a reality.
T: Well, I hope you will, too. I hope you get some finding on.t.
Have you talked to anybody over the people
are
whoA on or off campus?
W: yeah, we are in the process of, we're in the process ...
T: excuse me. ... Okay, I think we were talking about the community
the
center and your goals or hopes, aspirations for/future before
we were interrupted .
W: Right. We were talking about grants, and I think one of the things ...
well, we're pursuing, we have our research council now over here
at the university that's been established recently. And I think
that through this research council that we'll be able to pursue
all the possible avenues for funding from the university's standpoint.
And we'll hopefully be able to find something which, which we
can apply to for this, this community center. I certainly hope
so. I think possibly it can come eventually through the people
in this town Jaybe establishing this as a major priority and
working toward it. So there's a couple of avenues and you just
always keep your options open. Just try to find ways.
LUM 95A
15
T: Well, I can't help but think any concrete thing that we see even
a building, is first an idea. And I certainly hope you don't
lose it or keep, you know ... because you can get discouraged
when you see that people, and particularly people in this area,
where it's most t_ ____ just don't understand some-
times, you know. Maybe it's lack of education or not caring
or whatever. But a person coming in and I've lived here
about five years, too, get discouraged and sort of turned off
and say, well, if they don't care any bit more than that
why should I knock my brains out. Sometimes you come up against
these, these barriers. I hope this is not the case. But
if it is) I hope you'll continue with it because you seem like
a determined person. I didn't, I don't believe I established
your age, did I?
W: I'm twenty-seven.
T: Twenty-seven. And where did you tell me you went to school?
W: I went to school at Kansas State and got my Master's there.
And thenfollowing that I had experience working with the
Department of Social Services in Joplin, Missouri. Then I
also worked as the director of the pilot project that was
establishing neighborhood centers. So I've had some experience
in getting ...
T: Seeiei-what some of the barriers that you can come up against.
W: A, Right. I'm pretty familiar with that because I had thirteen
LUM 95A
16
personnel and we set up six neighborhood centers before I
left. I was drafted in the middle of, well, actually I'd been
working there about a year and then I was drafted and I spent
two years at Fort Bragg teaching there. It-was really some-
thing. I knew nothing about Pembroke. I absolutely knew nothing.
I was .-, at Fayetteville Fort Bragg, which is just thirty-five
miles from here. But I knew absolutely nothing. I had no
idea. I went, funny thing happened. I camdown here and someone
said when I got back. I met everybody down there. And they
saidN'well, did you see Lot of Indians?" And I said, "Oh,
I didn't see any Indians." And ... because here again, you know,
it's a cultural ij This is the first time I've ever really
that I know of, that I've ever been around Indians. And so
this is really a new experience. I came down here and for a
while I was pretty ignorant, very ignorant about what was going
on and about what:: had happened. And people started telling me
stories about discrimination and what have you. It's hat4=l- I .
hard for me to cope with and understand really. But I think
now after being here three years that I understand a lot
r- *-DOUI> the
more about what's going on atd- of course, living in/town itself.
And I think there's feelings, you know, both ways. I think
you know, I've encountered resentment because of the fact that
I'm white and X working in this area. And I think the first
LUM 95A
17
time I was in the paper on something on a community thing I
received a letter telling me that that should be the extent
of my involvement. But, but I will say this, that for the most
a
part it's been/very positive thing. I've found the people of
Pembroke to be quite receptive, the ones that I have been
involved with to change and quite open. We have some people
that help on Saturday who I think are the greatest people in the
world. They come out there every Saturday morning I4 AL
adults in the community of Pembroke. And they are great. They're
... bought tennis shoes for all our volunteer kids out there,
and they're going to have a little weiner roast for all the kids
involved in the progamand d4dt-have-you. And ...
T: Well, this is together and it's not only in a family sort of way, of what
we all get such busy lives it's, has positive aspects in other
ways.
W: Yes, I enjoy a rural community. And I think Pembroke is like a lot
of rural communities because when I grew up everybody was kind
of everybody else's friend. And, you know, if you had problems
in the community then i other people were aware of the problems
and they'd try to help you do somehting about the problems.
And I think, you know, Pembroke is not unlike the town that I
grew up in. It's very similar because there's kind of an identity
here.
LUM 95A
18
T: It's some of our own town, I mean, you know, like you said,
... I think, I read a book called Growing Up in River City
or something.
W: Um, huh, right.
T: I didn't like it but then I had to realize a more realistic
attitude that was that some of River 6ity is in every
town, my town, and I had to realize it. And
get out there and start cleaning it up a little bit. But in
your response now, this community thing has been going on
for how long? The parents coming out, the adults and so on
helping.
W: Well, this has been going on for say, oh, I'd say, trying to
think back, it started in February. And ... this is the youth
program on Saturday. And every Saturday we have the youth
program and they swim and they wrestle and they play basketball
and they play softball and just, we try to provide ... volley-
for them
ball, we try ... soccer, everything/\on Saturday. And-we have
a number of community and university students working together
on this, to make this a success. And I think this has definitely
been a success. I think it's really helpful to people
in the community. I think it gives them a constructive outlet
as students in this area. What we hope to do, this is for high
school kids, eight through sixteen)is who we service.
T: Eight through sixteen?
LUM 95A
19
W: Right.
T: I come, also come in contact with a lot of young people and then you
know, like I say, it's just that we's Indians. And the parents
have given up on them; just, you know, can't do anything with
them. Do you get any like this?
W: Yeah. I think ...
T: /Take 'em. I don't want them any more.
W: Right. I think that, I don't know, you see it, you see the thing
that can happen here; you've been involved with it before as I
have. You just want to say to people, you want to go up and say,
look, 1etlt get this thing built let-s get together& let's
get us a center going and we can work together as a community and
kinds of
do some of these/things." And sometimes, you know, it does
... you say frustration, sometimes it does get a little frustrating
because, to me, because I like, I like to see things done
yesterday. I don't like to, I realize that change is a developmental
thing, but personally, and I try to stay within-th4e the concept
of the system, but personally .i I get impatient, you know, and
I want to see it ...
T: You're a young man on the go.
W: I want to see it happen, you know, and I don't want to, I don't
want to wait ten years or fifteen years when I can see that some-
thing like this can be such a, such a beneficial thing to people
LUM 95A
20
in this community.
T: Well, I think you realize, too, that you can talk a thing to death,
you know. And this, I wouldn't want to see either.
people, you know, on the, even some of the key people in the
community get them interested in this. I understand you work
pretty close with the LRDA. What is your involvement there?
W: Yeah, we work with the LRDA*and at this point we have established
a good relationship with LRDA. What we're presently doing
for example, we're helping them provide some student manpower
for some of their programs. For example, ....
T: Explain this manpower. To some areas it's not ...
W: Okay, one thing that, well, the LRDA has a .number of programs.
One of the things that we were very instrumental in helping them
with, in fact, ...
T: .a-hatdthe Lumbee Regional ...?
W: Lumbee Regional Development Association, right. One of the things
we were very much involved with was their program, tutoring
program. We had thirty students help. And this was about a
with
year and a half ago. Had thirty students involved J\ their
tutorial program, LRDA. And we had, we try to work with them,\ike
for example, with guidance and counselling. We, we were working
with them on that in that particular area also. LRDA at the
present time is also interested. In fact, they're also working
LUM 95A
21
on this community center kind of idea. In fact a young lady
Works with LRDA, her name is Ruth Bettis wrote a tre-
mendous proposal for this community center. I mean it's
absolutely ideal. I hope it will be funded. And so this is
another ...
T: Where did she write?. Was-this-in a..brochure type or ...?
W: No, she, she's written a kind of a proposal thing. We had a,
we sat down and had a conversation about it one day, T N
"it 'a.4/.- dr_4( 7 //. She wrote a proposal. I'll give
you a copy of that, before ...
"T: I'd like to see it. We're going to have to
W: Sure, um, huh. It's extremely ... it's what I have envisioned
as being the answer to this community center idea.
T: In other words the two of you got together mainly from her
initiating it.
W: Right, right. She came down here and we sat and talked t"__A_
because I'd been working with LRDA.
T: Would you say her name again, please?
W: Ruth Bettis, B-e-t-t-i-s. But I've been, we've been working with
LRDA since I've been here actually with, first of all through
program, the tutorial program. And then we established
a pretty close relationships with them. We help them out if we
clSK eainhp
LUM 95A
21
can and of course they're supportive of us, of our programs also.
I'd say recently we've established a real rapport. I'm not
saying it's always been that way. But I think recently, for
example, we had a meeting with gr. ____ i of LRDA and
some of his Staff members
and some of the people from here. It was quite productive. We
sat and kind of explained what we were doing, what we were about
different
in each of theiareas and how we could possibly be supportive
of each other, more supportive than we've been. I thought it was
very productive. I think LRDA is doing some good things.
T: hO 4 1cn _k ^ Z 4
W. Yes, I thought the response there was very good. I mean it
was a very productive meeting because I think people more or less
told what the kinds :of things they were interested in doing and
we talked concretely about dealing with those kinds of problems.
T: I've interviewed several of the new citizens of this county) and
some sota-tin different ways0%t seems to be the feeling of a
great many, I won't say the majority, but a great many that LRDA
is not serving the community as they hoped f it would. Could
you comment on this or what would you think they would ... I
think they say that the money is there, but somehow you have to
go through so much red tape to get the student or whoever you
know needs it. Now how do they work)as you understand it?
W: Well, all I could say, is I'm not that familiar&,you know, I've
heard that criticism before, but I'm not that familiar with how
LUM 95A
22
they are, you know, really reaching the people of this community.
I'm aware of their programs,and I'm aware of some of their
programs, and some of their operations. But in terms of, you
know it'd be kind of like asking them to say, you know, how do
fell the Human Services ...
T: I'm asking you loaded question.
"W: Right. How do you feel the Human Services is doing dealing with
people because they may know, I think they're pretty well informed
about what's happened here, but other parts of the university
perhaps they mightnot be as familiar with. So I think that was
one of the constructive things of that particular meeting. It
really gave a chance to sit down and ...
T: Understand.
W: Right. Get a better understanrng. There was a lot of things
they were doing that I learned aboutthere that I thought I had a
pretty good knowledge of. I think this is important that we do
share information and what-have-you and about what we're about.
and
As far as the other thing that you mentioned, that criticism/what-
have-you, it'd be difficult for me to comment. I've been very
impressed with Mr. Blanks as the director and I've been very
impressed with Dewey Locklear, his assistant, who's been
quite cooperative. In fact, they've been very cooperative in the
Senior Citizen Walk-In Center. They've been very helpful to us.
And Dewey was at the first meeting we had there and he was
LUM 95A
23
explaining what LRDA had done through their VISTA program and they've
opened up a lot of senior citizens groups throughout the county.
Ruth Bettis to me is one of the, she's top in my book. I think
she's a very perceptive person. She's a research, she writes j )
grants and what-have-you and she's very sharp, extremely sharp.
So from that standpointthat's about all I could comment on that---
what I know.
T: Well, perhaps it's lack of understanding is the reason some of the
citizens feel this way. And what you're doing is helping to
eliminate this, I think. As much publicity as you can get about
it, you know, through the newspaper or what-
ever you can use. Have you used the newspaper ...?
W: We sure have. We have, I think it's one thing that's ...some-
times it definitely does work to your advantage. It definitely
does.
T:
V: No, I think it's been very good. I feel sometime,you know, people
feel resentment. You know, other faculty members, what have you.
T:
W: For example, about five or six sessions in a
row about that fact; didn't mention
any names, alluding to the fact. But ...
T: Does this disturb you to get criticism?
W: No, no. You kno,, you just kind of expect it when you're involved
in change. And there's a lot of it. There's a lot of, I
LUM 95A
24
think in the faculty, for example, I feel more pressure within
the faculty than I do, I've received excellent, we've received
excellent cooperation from the administration, from the students,
they've been just fantastic. The students have been remarkable.
And from the state. We've been listed, and I just received a
publication of a little booklet, It's called Noel: Notes on
the Experience .of Learning. And in that booklet we, ourselves,
and Duke were the two schools from North Carolina that were
listed in it as having programs that were considered extremely
good programs by the people that were writing this evaluation. I
myself have been asked to speak at the Davidson conference which
involved all the schools: in the state. I was one of three
panelists to kick off the day's activities and explain the Pem-
broke situation and what we were doing. And we've had numerous
requests from other schools concerning our service-learning con-
tract. They want it and they want to use it. I think ...
T: Have you opened the doors on this for other ...?
W: Oh, yeah, yes. We're very cooperative in terms of, we had a
conference here, North Carolina Office Conference
here last October. We had eleven schools from South Carolina
come to see what we were doing. Spent the day here. One of the
deans from Clemson University was here. And I think, you know,
this is indicative. Most all the agencies we are dealing with,
fifteen at that time, were here, represented Most of the
LUM 95A
25
administration was represented. And we invited,some of the faculty
came. And it was quite a, I think, a good experience. We had
like say, most of the schools requested information, were given
information concerning our operation here. and we periodically
get this request. But I think in terms of support that for this
kind of thing that we're getting pretty good support. The
criticism is there. You know I get teased a lot and (some of
it I don't think is so much teasing about being in the newspaper
or holding a party for The Robisonian or the Fayetteville paper.
T: In other words you're not a favor-bender at heart?
W: But I see publicity as this. You see, I use, I believe in
publicity. I will do everything I can to get publicity for our
program because this is the way I feel: when you don't have
money, you gotta have something going for you and I think
publicity is a way, is really a tool. and when I worked in
Joplin I got on a TV show and I was on there periodically, started
out. And I used a devious method I guess you could say. I
got on this TV show and I had the senior citizens group to call
in and tell them how much they enjoyed the program. After that,
you know, I was just supposed to be on there for that day, well,
they got so much response at the TV station that they called me
back up and said that you're so popular they'd like me to come
back periodically, every ... so I was going back there every
LUM 95A
26
two weeks. And it was a very, it was a station that hit four
states. And so we got all kinds of response. I think it was
the real key point in the development of the center was the
we've
publicity. I think here, too, ./ had write-ups all over. The
Charlotte Observer had a front page story on what we were doing.
Greensboro has done some things. Fayettevill has done a lot
of things. And of course, the Robisonian here. And throughout
though
the state/we've had a lot of publicity.
T: In dealing with young people is it in your program or do you
anticipate it being in your program, or is now perhaps, the
kids that are on drugs or have drug problems, is there any plan
in your program for that or do you have, is this not in the
progarm yet?
W: Well, I can see, this, you know, like being through the community
center, coming through the community center. We don't have,
well, I'll just say, at this point that the drug situation, I
don't, I'm not that involved with it really I guess you could say,
drug rehabilitation. Now I have written off for a grant. I
came down and somebody had to write it. Well, I wrote a draft
a
for/drug rehabilition grant which would send off a number ofi
our students and myself to Florida.
T: Do you happen to have that available?
W: Uh, well, it's, it hasn't been approved yet. It's been sent off.
And it hasn't been approved yet.
T: You wouldn't want to make it available ...?
LUM 95A
27
W: I don't see any objection to it. I submitted it to Dr. Todd,
whose the head of the Research Council and he sent it on.
T: But you say this goes to all the major colleges?
W: Um, huh.
T: And what you're saying perhaps could do with this.
W: Right. This is a ...
T: Using this as a supplemental tape ...
V: Right. This is a drug abuse program. -It's available through
Washington, D. C. And this is available to, as I-understand it, a
number of colleges participated in this or sent grants off for
it. I don't know how many, but after talking to people in
Washington they said that there were just a whole lot of people.
And I'm not too optimistic about our chances right now. I think
we would have possibly heard something by I now if there was
something for us there. But it was available so I sent it.in and
it was request.
T: may have been sort of slow. You know, President Nixon
himself has had a committee going and he's kind of remained quiet
on it this being an election year. But perhaps something will
come through on it. I think they are doing some studies on it.
And we have to face the drug problem of the young people.
W: Sure. I think ...
T: I don't know how inflitrated it is in the college yet, but I
know in the young people, well, as far as most of the town,
say it's really bad, you know. We might as well
LUM 95A
28
face it.
W: Right. Let me say this. _wasn't quite fair to us there
because we hosted a drug information conference here. And we had
people from Chapel Hill, from Fayetteville at the Fort Bragg
Operation Awareness, from the mental health clinics in two
counties, La group of pharmicists at Chapel Hill came down.
And we hosted this and we had two of the largest assemblies we've
here
ever had/and we filled up Moore Hall two hours consecutively. And
people were sitting in the balcony and what have you, so ... so
I should say we did host that conference last semester and there
was a great deal of participation in the people that were in
the afternoon, talking and rapping with the kids about drugs and
what have you, and their problems. It was quite informative. It
was quite informative. The only thing that I'd say is tvit at
this point we don't have specific, we have initiated a program
like this. I'm not saying that perhaps we can or we should,'
but at this point we just haven't done it. We don't have a drug,
program.
T: Excuse me-just a minute ...
END SIDE 1.
LUM 95A
-29-
SIDE 2.
as
T: Since the center is relatively new/compared to maybe some of the other
things it's kind of hard to take everything in at one time, but you
do as you say draw up a grant and hopes to eventually.
W: Yeah. We do. and of course, who knows, we may find that as
being a priority and we can get into that. I think there's,
but the fact that you know we're this close to Fort Bragg, and
Fort Bragg being what it is, and the tremendous amount of use and
availability of drugs in fort Bragg, that it's very difficult
to say that we don't have a problem. I just, to be quite honest
with you, I am not that aware of the problem here in this county
because ...
T: In other words you haven't been confronted with any students with
this problem?
: No, ...
T: Come to you for help or anything.
W: No, no, I've had people come about abortion and what have you, so
I know about that.
T: What are your feelings on this now that you mention it?
W: Well, my feelings are definitely that it's an individual choice,
but that the individual should be aware of all alternatives, you
know, available to him, or excuse me, to her.
T: Usually there's a "him" involved also.
W: Yes, right, right. But I do get students that come and request
information and what have you about abortion. I think the
LUM 95A
-30-
important. thing here is just, as I see my role, I'm not an
abortion counsellor by any sense of the word, but I am ...
T: This is strictly an opinion now ...
W: Right. I teach Population here, you see, and ...
T I' Tknow you are a member of the Zero Population
an
W: Right. Zero Population Growth. And I'm also/associate member
of the Carolina Population Center and I'm also just recently
have delivered a paper to the North Carolina Sociological As-
sociation on undergraduate population courses. And I'm also in
the process .of writing a, compiling a book,-an inter-directory
book on population with several people from around the state in
North Carolina. So this is my interest then in terms of abortion.
And of course we discuss this in Population, and I think that's
probably, you see I don't teach anything about drugs and maybe
that's why I get some people on abortion and I don't get them on
drugs.
T: Do you think abortion should be legalized to the point where
the person can just go ask for it if
they felt..?
W: Well, the Supreme Court has said, you know, that it is now, and
I think ...
T: Is it in every state?
LUM 95A
31
W: Yeah, well, the Supreme Court now has, you know, some states are
getting slowly caught up on it, what have you, but now they have
to implement it and I'm not sure that all states have yet im-
plemeinted the programs yet. But the Supreme Court has said
that abortion is now legal. So right now that's the system we're
offer ing. My concern is this. My concern is this. I'm concerned
about contraceptives. I think that there's no need to, I think
it's unfortunate people have to have abortions. I think, for
example, they're expensive. There are alot of times psychological
problems associated with abortion. So my personal viewpoint is I
think abortion is unfortunate. It is medically safe.
T: It shouldn't be used as a means of birth control.
W: No, I don't think it is a method of birth control. I don't like
to think of it that way. I think it is, unfortunately I think
there is a lot of misinformation about abortion. Abortion is
medically safe. It is more medically safe, there's less chance
of problems with an abortion than there is with a full pregnancy.
In other words, a person is taking a greater risk by having a
full pregnancy than they are with abortion.according to statistics.
So I think it's safe, I think it can be done very quickly, it's
not, doesn't have, is not something that's going to linger on.
for a week or two weeks or what have you. It's relatively in-
expensive; I say relatively, it depends on where you get it.done.
In Washington for example an abortion can be, you see, New
LUM 95A
32
York is actually cheaper right now than to get it done right
here in North Carolina, which is interesting.
T: I often see numbers in the paper, newspapers, different papers
where you can call.
W: Right. You get abortion counselling, too.
T: Help even financially.
W: My concern and I think it's a real concern around this area I'm
extremely concerned about the sex education program here in this
area.
T: Do you think it's lacking as far as being up to date?
W: Oh, definitely, definitely. I think it's very unfortunate, I
think it's very unfortunate that we still in this area especially,
well, other rural areas I1.think too.
T: We're living in, I'm afraid it's, maybe we go back to our puri-
tanical ancestry that we can't discuss it openly and freely maybe.
W: Well, this is it. This is really what it involves. It's the
fact : that we cannot deal with it openly. Or we are not dealing
with it openly. Ilm always amused that we would rather our
sons and daughters find out about sex reading something off the
wall of the john rather than to sit down in- a classroom situation
and discuss it in this kind of a manner. In other words we
I think
put the kind of negative connotations/to it and the kind of, well,
I just think, you know, you treat sex, if you treat sex in
this kind of manner it's something clandestine, it's something
LUM 95A
33
secretive and something which you find out about by your buddy
telling you what the system is. And I think it's unfortunate
a lot of people find out about the rhythm method or how to use
not
a condom or how to use a diaphragm or IUD or what have you/from
somebody who could help them with it. They find out from some-
body who knows perhaps as little about it as they do, or very
little about it.
T: They experiment and it sometimes fails, but it could ...
W YVery often fails.
T: ... could be successful if it was in the right way.
W; Right. I think it's just, you know, when you're a young
person tampering with contraceptives without education. It's
like a little child playing with a loaded gun. I think you're
not aware of the implications of it and ... For example,
I was talking over in Red Springs one time to a high school
group. And I asked this group, I said, "how-many knew what the
rhythm method was?" Well, a few of them raised their hands.
So this one boy, I said, "well, who can tell can tell me what
it is?" And he said, "yeah, that's," he said, "from the twelfth
to the sixteenth day you don't have sex." I thought this was
a rather astute observation on his part, and I bought well,
maybe I don't need to be addressing this subject. Then he said,
"all you have to do is have a calendar and mark off the twelfth
through the sixteenth in every month for a 0 year." "And,"
LUM 95A
34
he said, "that way you don't have to worry about it." So I think
with that kind of information floating around it's really sad.
And I tihnk this is true not only in terms of the ...
T: And his peer group probably has set him up as an authority.
Wi Sure. Sure. Right. He's an authority and they were all listening
to him and they were all shaking their head and I think
they, you know, really thought that this was the case. That the
or
thirteenth,/fourteenth or fifteenth of the month was the time not ...
and the group I was talking to there were three young ladies
there who were pregnant.
T: Unmarried?
W: I assume. I did not see any rings. I assumed that they weren't
married.
T: Well, I understand it's been happening a great deal. I think,
and there seems to be, there's something about the Lumbees, there's
not, once it happens they don't want to have an abortion as
such. They feel, it goes back to religion. Have you gotten any
criticism for this, that you know, it's murder; you're killing
a life, this kind of thing.
W. Sure. Sure.
T: I'm sure you've encounter some of this. Has it been to any large
degree?
W: I brought a good friend of mine whose on the national board of
directors of ZPG, Kent Hall, Dr. Kent Hallat Wisconsin, and
we had such an overflow of attendance we had to call another
LUM 95A
35
assembly and had two full assemblies for Dr. Hall. It was
very rewarding in terms of student participation. I just
couldn't have been happier about that. At .that particular
thing Dr. Hall talked about abortion. and we got a lot of
response to that cause he was gone and I was here and I was
kind of associated with th\. But I don't know, I think ...
T: Abortion, you're not just advocating it for the person whose
unmarried but even married.
W' Oh, well, yeah.
T: Sometimes you get caught, you know.
W: Sure.
T: I guess it's been said that over half the population's accidents
you know.
W: Right. I think so.
T: Nice accidents, you know, but still we're overpopulated and
becoming more so.
W: I think this, not only the overpopulation thing, see, a lot of
people are putting out information now that ZPG has been reached
in this country. Well, that's true. We've gotten down to around
the 2.0 level in terms of replacement. Per family, 2.0 average.
The thing that people are not saying is that it's going to take.
seven years for our population in the United States to stabilize
in the United STates and other places it may never stabilize.
But in the United States we seem to be ahead of other countries,
if not, like India and South America, for example. But it's
LUM 95A
36
going to take another seven years When our population stabilizes
if we maintain this replacement level, we're going to have
350 million people. A lot of people are concerned about the
quality of life for the people we've got right now. And I'm
concerned for one about the quality of life we're going to have
when we have three hundred and fifty if we keep the replacement
level. And there's no guarantee that that will happen. It
"may go back up again and fluectuate. Economics a lot of times
determines this, you know. During the Depression there was a
low birth rate. People would do anything not to have children
because they couldn't be provided for. There were a lot of
illegal abortions performed in that time. Then after World War
Ut'for example we had this now famous "baby boom". And the
baby boom really was a result and condition of the fact that
people were in pretty good shape. The country was very well
off economically after the second war, second world war. 'Course
other factors like all the men returned and it was a time to ...
T:
W: :Right it was a time to grow and a time to build and a time of
faith in the future, what have you. That this was the last war
maybe this sort of thing.
T: Do you find much resistance towards the Zero Population movement
at this time? Is it two children they advocate plus yourself?
Wt Umm, huh, right.
LUM 95A
37
T: And the guys wear little pins with "I've had my vasectomy."
Do you find many youg men or old men or whatever willing to go
through this or do they kind of ...?
V: Well, a vasectomy is still/I think a couple of years ago there
were a lot of people getting vasectomies. Well, there are
still a lot of people getting vasectomies. But there's a lot
of information being floated around about the vasectomies. I
read a study not too long ago that it's linked to arthritis-
and rheumatism and that sort of thing. But I'm not sure, too
sure about that sort of thing. I know the son of the president...
TI The thing that I was thinking about and it seemed ... I talked-
to one doctor, just a regular M.D., he said that before he would
the operation,
advise any of his patients to have this done4that he would
advise them to see a psychiatrist first to see if their ego
was strong enough.because somehow it was a threat to their man-
hood. What's your comment on this? Do you ... if a person's
secure I can see, but ...could it be, you know, it's called
impotency, this kind of thing, if a person is lost.
W: Yeah, I think .a person has to have his stuff together psycho-
logically before he gets a vasectomy because if he doesn't then
he's setting himself up. If he's not sure I don't think, you
know, in terms of, it's really a psychological thing. If a
person is ready psychologically for this kind of thing then fine.
If he's. nt then I would be be skeptical. I think he really
should be certain that this is what he wants. And I think a
LUM 95A
38
person maybe nineteen or twenty thinking about this may not be, maybe
he really hasn't given it enough thought.' I'm-saying in terms
of age. If he's just gotten married, they've beeimarried three
or four months, and they decide he wants to get a vasectomy.
And then say six or seven years later he decides that he de-
finitely wants a family. So they're getting to the point now
where they're reversable. There's a greater possibility for
reversibility, but it's not a guaranteed thing. Either way--that
you will be able or won't be able to have children once you have
is that
a vasectomy. So my feelings on it/personally a person should
be psychologically ready. I think there should be some counselling
involved before he -goes in. I don't think it's a matter of
going in and getting a vasectomy. And I think, I know a doctor
in Fayetteville, for example, who gives vasectomies. And I
discussed this with him. I personally don't have a vasectomy.
But I have discussed the possibility with him and talked about:
how he did it and what have you. He has a counselling session
with the person. The second, these are fairly expensive, is one
They're a
thing. They don't take long./ maybe, you know,/ten or fifteen
minutes process. You can have it done very shortly.
T: It's advised rather than the wife ...
W: Right. Well, oh yes,yes. If there was a choice, if there
had to be a choice between for example my wife and myself
and one of has to do it, had to do 'it, one of us had to do itj
LUM 95A
39
then I would say that I should be the one. And I think this is
a problem. We've put the burden on the woman. I think it's
unfortunate because actually ...
T: This is >what I was going to say. Even for a husband to
get this operation the wife has to sign the paper. Are you
aware of this?
W: Right.
T: It still comes back to ... the fall
on her. IsC there some way to get this, let it be his decision?
I know that they have to discuss it and talk about it. But
a paper was brought I couldn't sign it
because as a man gets older,I mean .we're not here forever.
l'm not a person who dwells on the dark side of life and I
don't get my kicks that way, but I realize I could go any day.
And he's still, well, even if he's forty the marriage scale
goes down. He could marry someone much younger who would like
to have children and I couldn't bring myself to sign the paper.
And I still haven't. But if he wants it, you know, I think,
well, just like they say an abortion is between a woman and her
doctor, I think, am I wrong in thinking,that it should be maybe
between the man and the doctor or i his counsellor? Of course,
I think it should be discussed with the wife, but .not leave
the final, you know, last thing on her.
W: Yeah, I think it should definitely be discussed with the wife,
but I don't think, I do think that the man ...
LUM 95A
40
T: In other words if you hadn't signed that paper I wouldn't be in
this shape today at least not being able to perform sexually, you
know, as he had been able to do. I feared that kind of reaction.
W: Oh, I see, I see. Well, here again that's going back to his
psychological make-up because it's been proven that this is the
only problem in terms of impotency that you're going to run in-
to; that it's a psychological thing. If the person can adjust
and adapt to this thing -psychologically then, you know, he's
going to be okay. Of the second, he does not physically, it
doesn't do anything physically to you that would impair you
from having sexual relations. But you can believe that. Well,
you know, how much is sex in the mind really? Youtalk about
sex ...
T: The brain's a sexist organ.
W: Right, right. So we talk about that and it's very easy to see
where that could be a problem for a man if he was inclined to
believe that going into it. Now if he was pretty well set, done
his research on vasectomies and what have you he realizes that
he doesn't have to have that problem. But that's another question.
T: How do you think, or have you had any reaction as to how the
Lumbee people would react to this? Because they say that, you
know, the Indians are fading out and getting smaller number and
so on.
W: That's an interesting, that's a very good question because I've
LUM 95A
41
had that, I was giving an address.one time in North Carolina
Home Economics Assocation and I had a black girl, we were talk-
ing about ZPG, and boy, she let me have it. She said, you are
preaching annihilation of the minorities and wp t have you if
you preach this replacement level and what have you. Well,
to me this is a fallacy in logic because this is making an
assumption that numbers necessarily mean power. And being in
a minority is a situation of powerlessness, not necessarily...
-we think in terms of the sociologist a minority axxxaiEg and
majority in relation to power, who controls the power. Well,
in our society the whites control the power; in South Africa,
the blacks,..a large...have many more numbers interms of
quantity in numbers, but in terms of power the whites control the
power structure there. And there's much more pxu oppression in
South Africa toward blacks, where blacks have the majority of
people, than there is here in the United States, you see.
T: Um-hum.
W: Which, which what I'm saying is the fact that I think to tell a/
Dick Gregory, for example is big on this, a black leader, he says,
"Go out and have as many children as you can have." Well, Dick
Gregory can say that. He has eleven children, and he can provide
for them, both economically, educationally, what have you.
T: Um-hum.
LUM 95A
42
W: But for him to go to a ghetto an tell a person with a low
socio-economic condition. to have eleven children, to me is
absurd. Dick Gregory should bear the responsibility of
providing for those children, I think, if he's going to
make statements to that effect. I think it's irresponsible.
I believe that the assumption there he's making is that that's
going to increase the black power. But when a person has
eleven children they can't send any of them to educational
system to improve their relative position in society. How
in the world is that going to help them? Whereas if they had
two children which perhaps they could provide for, send them
bqoeducational system, adequately care for them, what have you,
then that's another situation. So you could almost reverse that
\v--
; I would almost reverse that arg ent and say
that you actually could...
T: WhatL.he's saying is .. even-illigitimate just as long as you
produce. But who's going to take care of them?
W: Sure, produce, produce, produce. And that's the thing. You can
say, well, who's going to take care of them and he'll say,
well, the government's responsibility. Well, poverty is self-
perpetuating and it's a cycle. A hundred ...
T: It's hard to come out of it.
it's
W: Right. And/especially and difficult to come out of it if you've
got sormany things going against you, like this eleven-child
family or what have you. So I think this to meAis an
LUM 95A
43
irresponsible talk. And for him to say it in that position it
bothers me. This is the same thing that I answered the young
lady. And I would say it to the people here, in this area. I
would say if they had, I think personally, personally I think that
if a family wants to have fifteen children that's their business,
you see. That's their business.
T: If they can provide for them ...
W: Well, if they can provide ... right. If they can provide for the
children. It used to be, it used to be, I say I feel that way,
I really don't but I'm not, let me put it this way. I don't feel
that way, but I would do nothing to, I feel that they do have a
choice. They can do it. I don't feel that that's right. I don't
feel like it's right for example for the Kennedys to have as
many children as they have because today, used to be when we had
a land full of opportunity for people that, it used to be wide-
open spaces to go to and all kindsof new resources and what have
you to take advantage of that we could talk of having about
having as many children as we wanted to. Today we're in a re-
source crisis, you see. And we're talking about rationing
gas up in charlotte and cutting the water supply and what have
you in this area.
T: And we're out of beach.
W: So, so I, I Vd't know. So today I think, you know. we have to
think in terms of the big picture, not just your particular little
situation.
LUM 95 A
44
T: I think I would agree with this. From a sociology standpoint
I wanted to ask you what your opinion was on trial marriages
coming on now?
W: Hmmm.
T: You know if you read Psychology Today and
a great deal of this is going on. 'Course it's in bigger places
W: well, I think a trial marriage, I don't 4w. It's just something,
it's so very complex. I could support an argument either way on
that particular question. I could give you a supportive ar-
gument. I could take either gS side of that and give you a
strong supportive argument for it. And I think a strong sup-
portive argument for trial marriages is theL fact that in our
country we have such a haphazard way of getting married. And it's
kind of, well, I think we give more attention to buying a house
or an automobile sometime than we do to making a decision that's
going to more or less bind us, you know, which ...
T: For the rest of our lives.
W: Right. So ...
T: 'Till death do us part. Anyway it's said that way.
W: I think sometimes, right, sometimes, you know, it's amazing to me
sometimes we spend more times on the decision-making process
on things which are irrelevant as compared to marriage in
which should be a very imporatnt decision, I think. And we don't
spend the time on it.
LUM 95A
45
T: Right. It seems the things that affect us the most
we have very little training for. Bringing up children. It's
by ear; we play.it by ear.
W: That's right.
T: And it's so frightening sometimes.
W: That is so true.
T: And the same thing about marriage. I mean, you can go with a
person for five years but you don't know them until you eat at
the same table, bathe in the same bathtub, sleep in the same bed.
W: Right.
T: And this kind of thing.
W: That's right. I agree with you on that.
T: And I think that marriage is perhaps, and divorce is better than
a bad marriage. Especially when there's children...
W: I agree, I agree.
T: ...involved. I've had experience in this personally and
And even the minister in a'lot of cases says, "this
has been my first time that I have said that divorce is the an-
And
swer here because there's children involved."-/ the personali-
ties were ... it was not to say who was right or wrong, it
was just a difference in the personalities and the backgrounds.
W: I agree, I agree. I agree and I think that, you know, ...
T: But who, when you go ahead and you know, smack and you get
married, you say, it's like discussing'let's go to the movies,"
you know, or which movie to see.
LUM 95A
46
W: Right.
T: No nne benefits from it, from the divorce, but maybe the lawyer.
W: And I think an unfortunate thing is it puts this trial marriage
thing, well, I think, say ...
T: Well, what do you mean by "unfortunate"?
W: Well, I was going to say, really the .fortunate thing about the
trial marriages is that you get to know a person and you get to
person.
find out a little bit about that/ The unfortunate thing, I would
say, would be this, on a trial marriage, would be this; is that
I'm concerned that there's not enough, I'm concerned about the
decline of intimate relations in our society. For example,
we've gone from a rather impersonal society, excuse me, you know,
the old traditionally-ruled society, very closed, tied together,
personal, that sort of thing to a rather secondary ... impersonal
realoons. And also in terms of commitment I think that there is
something to say about two people who make a commitment, you
see AMd then follow it on through. And so, to that point I
think....
T: .Could a person be permitted to get a trial marriage license
as a young person is to get a trial license, you know, to drive?
W: Yeah.
T: For a certain amount of time, you know, to see if this thing is
going to work out.
W: I think it's possible. In fact, I'm thinking along the lines of
LUM 95A
47
what you call a contractuallmarriage, which ... It has some appeals
as far as I'm concerned; there are some appealing things about it.
One of the things about a contractual marriage is that you take
a contract to marry someone for a certain length of time, say three
years or five years or what have you. Then at the end of the
contractual time you either decide to renew the contract or to
not renew the contract.- And then at that time this gives you an
opportunity kind of to get to know the person, to find out whether
or not you are suited. I think that perhaps whether or not therd's
children is, this is rather crucial to this whole idea of con-
tractual. For example, if you had a two-year contractual marriage
and then after the two-year contractual marriage decided whether
you wanted to renew that marriage or not. Then at that timkou
could get into such questions as children and what have you. But
I think the first couple of years are crucial in a marriage.
And a lot of ...
T: children, in my opinion. But I ... not my opinion to
be stated here.
W: No, I don't, I don't think so. I think really the first couple
of years you should avoid having children.
T: It's really a big adjustment ...
W: It's a very, and I'm speaking, I can't speak from my own experience
'cause my wife and I were married, oh, let's see, I guess, second
year of our marriage she became pregnant. So then this was, funnl,
LUM 95A
48
here I am, maybe this is one of the reasons I'm soo interested
in sex education and what have you, because we f got some
misinformation from a doctor and so this was ... At that time
it was a very bad time for us. I was going away to the service.
And it was no time at all. The Vietnam situation was extremely
critical. Most of the people were finding themselves somehow
becoming implicated in that. That's why I kind of felt like
maybe it would happen to me., And it was no time at all to have
a child. Economically, of course, it was not a good time. And
we were just getting off our feet and here we had a child. And
I think that it was very rough. I was at Fort Bragg and it
was very tight economically. It was an adjustment. And so,
this was ...
T: I don't think the mother can really,and research supports the
mother it affects the child even
if you feel that it's wanted. Used to be an old wives' tale,
but I think we've established that it's pretty much true.
W: That's true. I think when you're nervous and the emotional
stability and what have you of the mother is extremely important
during pregnancy. And so I think really when you have a child
that you should pretty well set in terms of, you know, eco-
nomically, you should be fairly stable; psychologically, you
should be stable and ...
T: And emotionally feel that there's a person there with you. That
LUM 95A
49
means a lot to a woman.
W: And let's face it. A child can be a very constrictive thing to
a young couple, you know, who are just kind of still maybe ex-
ploring themselves. And then there in a position ...
T: You walk out the door and in ten minutes decide to go to a movie,
but you have to, like plan three days a head of time to go some-
where and get a baby-sitter.
W: Right, this is the thing. This is the thing that really, it
made such a transition in our life because we used to like, say,
we'd
at one or two/get these crazy ideas, one or two in the morning,
to go for a ride or walk or go get something somewhere, or go
to an all-night coffee shop, and just crazy, you know, things
like that. But we really enjoyed it. We'd go and play bridge
all night and things like that. Well, when a child arrives and
you, there's just no ...
T: They dictate your whole life.
W: It's a whole new ballgame. You just, you can't help, I mean, I
admit it's not a, I don't like to admit it, but I have some
resentment toward my child, you know. I love my child, I'm
not saying that, you know.
T: I know what you're saying.
W: I'd do anything for him, but I actually feel a resentment toward
him in the sense that he has, causes me to change my lifestyle
a great deal.
LUM 95A
50
T: Well, women feel this, too, I think because maybe their husbands
and
are taking business trips / they've always been able to go with
him, and they're able to shop and do things while they're
It's kind of a holiday for them. .But you don't leave
a small child. Somehow the mother, if she's away she's miserable,
if she's there and he's gone she's miserable. So it's just a
miserable time you live through there for a while.
W: I think a lot of people ...
T: I thought I'd never get through it, but after looking back it
goes pretty fast.
W: I think an interesting thing is a lot of people don't like to
admit,you know,that they feel this; that they feel perhaps a cer-
tain way toward having maybe a negative feeling toward their
child. This doesn't mean they don't love their child. That
can't, that shouldn't be confused with it. It simply means that
this caused a complete change in their lifestyle. And it cer-
tainly did with us. And we're still I think adjusting, even
though our child is three and a half years old, you know --the
baby-sitter problem and what have you. and the fact of kind of
getting away together and spending time alone is a problem.
You think ... well, ...
T: Don't you feel it's kind of like maybe there's something there,
just like, and when you get away alone, the baby, you know ...
W: You worry ...
T: You're thinking, you're glad to get out and you're worried i it's
LUM 95A
51
a mixed emotion.
W: Um huh, right. You get out there and you can't really com-
pletely enjoy yourself in a way 'cause you're always worrying
whether the baby-sitter is giing to give it the kind of care
that you would and what have you.- And it jus really, that's
one thing I gues is an advantage of living around your parents,
you know, 'cause they seem to enjoy taking care of children
and you don't feel so ...
with
T: I talked to a young man right before I talked /- you on an inter-
family
view who had ten in his /. I said, I feel sort of, feel for
your mother sympathetic to have ten children. She must be made
out of good stuff. He said well, she was. But really I don't
know how people have large families like they used to. It
just doesn't seem like we have whatever it is that ... I don't
think I could go through another pregnancy now.
I don't know ... I feel, I have two boys ... But
I'm sure for men that, you know, have their tale of
woe, too. I mean, you know, they have to go through all the
sufferhgi, but I'm sure it's not, it's a psychological thing,
too, as you've explained. Is there any other things of the pro-
gram that you do here that I haven't mentioned. I wanted to
go into some of the, well, things that you being a parent
you see this coming on the scene today. I don't know if your
wife works or not, it's beneath your dignity to wash dishes
LUM 95A
52
or maybe Something like this, or change
the baby's diaper or things that had to be done. This is just
personal.
W: I'll be honest about that. In terms of Women's Lib I'm not, I'm
probably a more liberal thinker than I am in terms of actual
practice. And I'm a real hypocrite because I think women should
be accorded equality and what have you, but I'm very hypocritical
about it. My wife has done the household task what have you
and I have not really been very helpful. In fact I've been
very little help at all around the house. And I think this is
partially my fault and I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say this on
tape but it's partially her fault because she is very concerned
about the appearance pf the house and what have you which does
not bother me to that extent.
T: Well, this is in fact any way you .
W: So in a way then if she wants the house to have a new appea*nse
what have you then she feels compelled to do it. And, but
again, I do feel this though. After working very hard to get
her an education, she has a wealth of experience, she's a very
talented musician. She's toured Europe, and she sang and
with international competition. But she is finishing
up here in terms of her formal degree. And I want her to get
it because I want my wife to feel independent of me. I don't
want her to feel tied to me and I do want her to find a sense
of fulfillment through what she's doing. I want her to do her
LUM 95 A
53
thing and I want her to be, don't want her to g feel her only
alternatives are to stay in the house and ...
T: And live in your shadow.
W: Right. I don't like that. And I think sometimes,tyou know, this
comes up For example ...
T: Well, we're all kind of living in hard times as far as the
male/woman relationship because women I think are a certain
and men see it as a threat. Sometimes you don't
know how to deal with it. -- noti! experienced
as far as doctors and what have you today.
W: I think, for example, I was just talking with my wife the other
day, and I told her that I'd like her to go as far in education
as she'd like to go. I'd like to see her do that. And if she
wants to stop after a bachelors, fine; if she wants to go get
her Masters, fine; if she wants to go get her Ph.D. I'd like
to help her to do it if I can.
T: Do you have any plans to get your Ph.D.? ever working
on it? You're so busy.
W: Well, at this point if I stay in education I definitely will
get a Ph.D. If I stay in the educational arena. I'm not sure
at this point whether what my plans are in that respect be-
cause I. very much like community work. I enjoy this setting
extremely, but in a college atmosphere what have you there's
a lot of pressure to get your Ph.D. I don't feel like pressure's
LUM 95A
53
been put on me here because I have a lot of freedom in the work
I'm doing. But in general that's the situation in terms of
Ph.D's.
T: I want to ask you one other thing. ... Research again supports
that suicide is the second killer of college age students; auto-
mobile wrecks is the first. What comment can you make on this?
*.iWhat reason would be given for this? Do you think maybe the
frustration level, do they put too much pressure--you mentioned
pressure in your job--and pressure in obtaining your degree and
things like this. Why would a college-age student commit suicide?
W: Hmmm. Well, I think suicide is related to what we call in
sociology "anomie,'" which is the state of normlessness. And
It doesn't mean that the person doesn't ihave:any norms at all
or standards. It means that he has so many he doesn't know
which to choose from. It's very difficult for him to choose
and set a norm and internalize it for himself. So I think this
is a problem sometimes. For example, I think a student who's
grown up in a very rigid, structured family group, leaving that
group and then going to school. And so when he's in a very
rigid, structured group he accepts this what have you, and when
he goes to school, it's a totally different environment. And
many times a person cannot adjust. He doesn't know whether
to cast off what his family has been teaching him for all these
years or to cast off what everybody else around him, his peers,
are doing. So he's left with that conflict. What he may do is
LUM 95A
54
reject both. He may become frustrated at his parents for put-
ting him in a situation like that, and frustrated at himself
because he can't adapt to it.
T: Well, one reason I asked this question because this is a problem
with the Lumbee people. The suicide rate is high, nervous dis-
orders are great and we have a lot of alcoholism among the
people here. And you just expressed;an understanding of it
and we're appreciative of this, the community is, and we hope
you'll keep your work up and I appreciate this interview with
you. And for myself and on behalf of Doris Duke Foundation I
thank you very much.
W: Thank you. I enjoyed it.
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