Interview with Victor Elk (June 1, 1973)

COPYRIGHT NOTICE

This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limts the amount of material that may be
used.

For all other permissions and requests, contact the
SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida

LUM 94A
M. Taylor interview w/
Victor Elk
April 20, 1973

T: Today is April 20, 1973. My name is Marilyn Taylor. I'm on the

Pembroke State University campus and with me is a student. And we're

out here under the trees and listening to the birds sing and watching'

the signs of spring with iiw. working the bulldozers and layin'lines

of all kinds and all this. The Easter holidays is started so it's very

peaceful around here. There's not too many people. I believe they

started yesterday or was it ...?

E: Yesterday. '" .

T: Okay. 'Kay, the student I have with me is kindly consenting to an in-

terview and we'll let him tell his name and where he's from.

E: I'm anonymous. I'm from ... Pembroke here is my hometown and ... and

my name's Victor Elk.

T: 'Victor, have you lived here all your life? I'm gonna get a little closer

to you ... q-his mike here.

E: Yeah, practically all my life. 'Cept went out West with my father for

about a year. We lived out there about a year when I was between two and

three. Somewhere along this time.

T: Do you remember ... do you recall any ... or were you too young?

E: Actually I was a little older, I think it was about four, or somewhere

along four. A little bit, not very much.

T: Do you remember whether you had a favorable impression or ...?

E: I don't think I had any type impression at that age, but I do remember it.

T: Ummm. Um, where ... who is your mother and father.
I. r'X I
E: Um, my father is Ray H. Elk, and my mother is Jaco-bs Elk,

Jacobs Elk. That's correct.

T: Do they live here in Pembroke?

2

E: Well, my father he ... he lives in Maryland, and my par--, my mother

lives right here.

T: So you stay at home with your mother, is that right?

E: Right, I'm right here at home with my mother.

T: So you come ... I take it as I do, from a broken home? Was your home ...

would you say you were a child of divorce?

E: No, I wouldn't say divorce. Just maybe minor disagreements. Father ad

doesn't like it here.

T: In other words he's .... are they in a state of separation or does he

get home occasionally?

E: Oh, he ... he's home occasionally. About every two weeks or every

month or so.

T: Oh, yeah, I see. So his work takes him ...

E: Right, he's still supporting the family. He still aids in the support

of the family.

T: I see. How many other children in your family?

E: There's ... at home right now there's only two, but I have five brothers

and sisters other than me.

T: And you make up six. Where do you fall in the line?
ItA's, (c-
E: I am the-fourth oldest.

T: Fourth oldest. And uh, the girls--how do they range?

E: I have ... second oldest is my sister, she's about 23. I have a sister

that's about 18 now.

T: And you said two girls in the family?

E: Only two girls.

T: So they're older than you are. Do you find that you look up to them for

knowlee about women and girls and things that you want to know about?

E: No, I believe I've outgrown that now.

T: Was there a time when you could do this?

3

E: Yeah, I imagine they were, yes.

T: Would you say that your family is a close-knit now, but even though there

is ... some of them are married and left home?

E: There's a separation, but we got a close-knit family. It's always

been. From generation to generation.

T: Do you contribute this to part of your Indianness? 'It seems that most

families ...or Indian ... this is an identity of an Indian in alot of

places. Or identifies with them.

E: Well, in our case around here I wouldn't say the closeness had anything

to do with racial anything like that though, no, I wouldn't say.

Maybe if we were off livin' in Maryland somewhere it might help. It

would ...
ypF
T: Is your father giving you any of his rela--, observations of what it's

like to ...to work in another area besides, you know, your homeground?

E: Oh, ummm, yeah, he's .. I've been up there and visited him and stuff

and he ... he ... he likes the type work that he's doin'. He's been

there eighteen years.

T: What type does he do?

E: He works with boys. He works in reformatory school. He's superintendent

or something' I odn't know.

T: This is with ummm, correction-type ...?

E: Right, this is correction-type work, umm, huh.

T: What is your status here as a student at Pembroke?

E: Well, fight now, I'm a senor by maybe one hour.

T: Hooray!! Um, so you'll graduate within this ...

E: No, I'm gonna ... I'm just gonna hang around another year.

T: You are?

E: Lookin' for this job when I'm getting' out.

T: Are you gonna ... are you gonna be goin' to school or you know, takin'

4

LUM 94A

some extra courses or are you just gonna ...?

E: No, I'm just gonna ... just gonna be around area here ... just takin'

regular courses.

T: So you will ... will be a student right on then?

E: Yes, I'll still be here.

T: What is your major? What's your primary interest?

E: Uh, history and political science.

T: Political Science? Are you a political science major?

E: No, just history.
of (0O -s-
T: History major and .'. at one time this was together political science

but now I think it's a separate department, isn't it?

E: Yeah, it's ... it's Social Studies now, that's right, correct.

T: Do you hope to use ... to teach it or how do you ...?

E: No, I'm hopin' it'll get me in law school if I'm lucky.

T: Well, that sounds great because we do need more lawyers in this area

and especially"people who live here and understand our problems and

ups and downs and would you come back to your home?

E: Yeah, I plan on ... this is gonna be my home as long as I'm alive I

imagine. I ... I'll come back here. I'll be here.

T: So many of our qualified people find it necessary to leave the area in

order to make a living.

E: Well, you ... in the cities and around you can make alot more money.

You can make alot more money; you wouldn't ... you wouldn't make alot

around here, but you could make a substantial amount to live on around

here. You wouldn't make as much as you'd be making' in the city somewhere

but you can make ... you can make good money, you can make fair money.

T: Do you have any idea how many Indian lawyers we have in this area here?

E: Right now I don't think we have but we have one. I know ...

5

LUM 94A

T: It's one I have.

E: I know of three; I know of three that's graduation' this spring.

T: Alright. Who's the one that we now have?

E: I don't even know the man's name.

T: A Horace ...

E: Horace ... right ...Horace Locklear.

T: Over in ... I belfve he's practicin' in Lumberton, ten miles from here;

'bout ... approximately ten miles.

E: Yeah, yeah, he's over in Lumbertnn somewhere.

T: And there's three graduation' this year?

E: Right. There's two from Duke and I think there's one at ... one at t

University of North Carolina. I don't ...

T: Now when you say, graduation" does that mean ... does that mean they've

passed their bar exam?

E: I mean they're ... they're ... they're ... they're ... I think .. I

don't think ... let's see, well, they'll receive a certificate, then you

go through the bar. I don't think they've taken it.

T: You don't think so? You know there was a time when it seemed there
an
was no way in the world... / Indian could have all the smarts in the

world, could pass the bar. I don't know how they managed that but I

see that's opening' up a ... what do you feel about that? is that a

discrimination?

E: That's just a bias; that's 'bout like our school right here. The University's

... you know how large university's are ...they don't like to compete

and be beaten by small universities. The whole thing's just wrapped

up .... just a biased feeling you know. Umm, just because you're a

small school, a regional school, don't mean your educational programs
n't to ar. That used to be the trouble in ...in our hi
aren't up to par. That used to be the trouble in ...in our high

6

LUM 94A

schools out here, but it's not any more. I believe it was at one time,

but they have good teachers now and people making' alot higher on ...

on the board and stuff and those days are gone.

T: So you see a bright day for tomorrow?

E: Yeah, definitely.

T: Can you remember stories of discrimination when you went to Lumberton of

your ...perhaps your father ...?

E: Oh, yes, I saw some myself when I was real small.

T: Tell us about it.

E: Well, you knay, it's just like in ... back in '63 and '62, you ...

T: I want to know your feeling's on it because ... want to bring 'em out

in the open.

E: Well, there's not any feeling's right now.

T: Well, I know but ...

E: But then ...

T:I How did you react and how did you feel at that time? What was the cir-

cumstances ____ that you ...?

E: Well, it's sorta ...I ...my myself really weren't discriminated on,

'cause I never was rejected anywhere, but I seen signs that said, "White

Only" and this particular thing ...

T: How did you feel when you saw that? ,et "*J { y*,

E: I ... I was small and you know ... an idea comes into your mind and you

ask your parents why and they ... they try to give you some explanation

and ...

T: What kind of ... were you satisfied with explanations for "White Only", kC

what did that ... what ideal did you get from it or impression?

E: Well, right now, this is during King's and them movement. This ...

what movement was this now? This civil rights movement thing was coming'

1

LUM 94A

along then. Alot of additive tension was you know, directed ...

T: Toward the blacks.

E: ... in these lines. Right, towards the blacks and I believe a year after

that ... that stuff ... 'bout '64, they were beginning to come down;

they really didn't have a ... have a large effect on me 'cause we ... I

never did really get over that way to Lumberton much.

T: Well, I think it was in the fifties when the civil rights was hatched.

E: Well, it began back ...

T: But it took us ten years to get the thing implemented.

E:' That's right.

T: And ..we're still having problems with it, aren't we? But as you say it does

look brighter. We can see doors opening that was once ... we thought

was closed forever, particularly- to people in this area. They ... they're ...

do you feel have better jab opportunities in ... uh, they are not discrim-

inated against as much.

E: Well, nowadays, uh, like before Well, education is sorta helping

that a little bit and I don't think ... around here 0* now it used to be

pretty bad, but I don't think it ... at Lumberton and around it's not as bad as

it usedito be. Not if you're qualified. Now that's the excuse they used to have:

"you're not qualified." You have more qualified people now going up for

jobs, and I imagine we still do have some but they're looking for ... it

just depends on ... well, excuse now is: "you gotta be qualified."

T: So you think education is gonna put the Indian in a better bracket

educationally, economically and socially speaking' that he doesn't feel

isolated in his ...

E: Well, I don't ... I don't think we've ever been ... felt isolated around

Q here. I mean not in my- time, but I'm pretty sure in our folks'

time here, yeah, our parents' time, but not now.

8

LUM 94A

T: I don't believe I established how old you were, Victor. We're

talking' in terms of time, let's get down to ...

E: I'm 21.

T: Twenty-one?

E: Right.

T: Well, I used to ... I was going to say you can vote but now you could

vote when you was eighteen. That's the way it was now. Just interviewed

a man at the ABC store this morning, he said, "Soon gonna be able to

buy whiskey at eighteen. Now does that ... how does that effect you in

any way ... if you were younger would you be pleased of that act of

legislature? ... Legislative act ... ..

E: Well, I ... I'd rather see somebody on alcohol than what I've seen

around here and around what I came up with.

T: Yeah. And what was that?

E: WEll, even when I was in high school the drugs is always been around

as long as I can remember since I was in high school.

T: How do you view this? Would you ... what's the problem? It seems like

the law is trying to enforce unenforceable laws. I mean, you know, like

we went through ...you studying' history at least ... say we didn't,

I didn't ..; we've gone through it in ... in studying' Prohibition

and that kind of thing. It didn't do well with alcohol. Do you

think drugs, marihuana I'm speaking' about now, I'm not talking'

about the LSD, and acid and the hard stuff and all that, but would

you be in favor of legalizing marihuana?

E: No, I ... I don't know ... I'd have to think about that. It's just

not ...

T: I mean the law seems so harsh now and it's been determined ... by

at least some studies said it's not as harmful as alcohol.

9

LUM 94A

E: Well, it's just like ... well, to me just the same as alcohol.

T: Um, huh.

E: It ... that is to say it had the same effect on our society as

alcohol would.

T: Um, huh. Umm, and yet they say it ...

E: It's just ....

T: It's not ... it's not addictive, I mean you know.- in a sense that
E'. 3 0,
a person becomes an alcoholicTbut this they say, I'm speaking' of

research .... this ... supportive of this. But you can get addicted

to a glass of water a day if you just, you know ...someone else .

E: I don't think they ... they're not concerned about ... like look at

how many drunken drivers we got on the road today. Now what's gonna

happen when you get all these ... when' you get carried away with

this ... with marijuana. You're gonna have twice the number of al-,

actually you just got ... you're gonna have ... you're gonna double

your alcoholism on the road. You had ... marijuana has about the same

effect as alcohol except that ... if you experienced'you know what

I'm talking' about.

T: Well, I'm gonna have to plead the Fifth on that 'cause we're liable

to get the and the FBI on it and then ... as I have promised

you earlier I won't ask questions that would incriminate you. But

we don't want to get anything that's too illegal but we do have to

admit and we see evidence that drugs is plentiful around here. Wouldn't

you say?

E: I wouldn't say plentiful.

T: Well, I meaw if you want to get 'em they can be had.

E: Well, if you ... nowadays ... if you want to get any kind of junk like

that you can ... especially marijuana, you can get it about anywhere.

10

LUM 94A

T: What does it sell for? I mean, you know, you hear friends talk and

things like that ...

E: Well, it ... it ... I don't know ... it may sell from ... Fro

T: Say about an ounce. What would you buy an ounce ...what would you get

an ounce for?

E: Well, around here I don't believe ... they don't ... they don't have

it in ..II'd say it's just ...no, they just have a roll; they don't sell

it in quantities like that ... like ... too many people getting' caught

now around here ... getting' set up, so they only sell it, maybe a

joint, hey, you want a joint, that's about all you can get at one time.

T: One cigarette at a time.

E: Yeah, ...

T: And it's rolled.

E: Yea, 'cause too many people ... that't r. the way, these are just

local fellas around here, that's the way they handle it. If you nnly

get caught with a joint, that's only a felony or something' like that.

Like this guy right here who's goin' by right now has been caught

three times, possession, gonna sell the stuff too.

T: In that car?

E: Yeah, he's been caught three times.

E: We don't know who he is, do we?

E: No, we sure don't. No, I don't know ... you can get it for free
r It'. !*>:- ; ,.
and you can go to partieshand it's free.

T: ..... I mean is he a ?

E: Yeah, he's a he was a student here.

T: Oh, yeah. What age would you t say he was? Approximately, I mean.

E: He's younger than I am, or my age.

T: Yeah. But he's been caught ... busted three times with it on?

11

LUM 94A

E: Three times, yeah.

T: ... in his possession. How did he get out of it?

E: He's not out of it yet. He just keeps goin' to court and they

keep putting' it off.

T: Are you aware of the penalties that if you ... if you're caught with

it ... possession ... what happens to your record?

E: Right, that's what would happen if you get caught. Well, that's what

they say.

T: What happens?

E: Well, if youlet caught you ... with so much ... I mean if it's a felony,

well, it's not too bad, I mean a misdemeanor ... I mean a misdemeanor,

it's not bad ...

T: ..' ... ... not pushing it ...

E: Right, right. But if it's a felony or anything like that if you can ...

you're not able to work with the government or take any ... hold any

federal offices or anything like ... any type work like that. That's

so they say.

TY Ur, huh.

E: But you got a record, it's just like goin' to prison, you got a ... you

got a police record.

T: Follows you all your life.

E: Yeah, it's a record.

T: i'm told there are certain jobspyou can't enter into if you ever

have a charge agianst you for any type of drugs. Do you know what some

of these jobs are?

E: Well, I know ... I've got a friend ... I know these friends of mine that

... well, at the pharmicist or whatever they are, ...

T: Druggists?

12

LUM 94A

E: Druggists. Uh, have been caught with marijuana misdemeanors and

they're goin' to Chapel Hill now to be druggists.

T: Be what?

E: They're gonna be pharmacists or whatever they are, you know.

T: Pharmacists.

E: Right. Pharmacists.

T: Pill-pushers, we might way, something' like that.

E: yeah, they're gonna be ...

T: They're gonna be in a legal way, aren't they?

E: Legal, it's perfectly legal; they're goin to school, they can get a

certificate I imagine to practice.

T: Um, huh, I was thinking' it took 'bout six years to become a druggist

though.

E: Oh, it does, it does. I think they've been there about three now. They're

about half way.

T: But you're sayin' they have access to these drugs.

E: I wouldn't say they did now but they've been ... I've known some that's

been caught with marijuana and stuff like that.

T: Um, huh. Do you think there's many people that's hung up on it, many

young people around here?

E: Around here? No, it's just ...

T: Part of it's a psychological crutch, maybe.

E: No, it's just ... it's just ...just like you go out drinking' on a

week-end or-somethin'.

T: Then you see it's really no big threat to our area?

E: No, it's not ... I odn't think right here in Pembroke it is, but at

Lumberton you read about where they get a big raid they find a little

LSD and stuff like this here, but mostly around here it's just m;

13

LUM 94A

marijuana and ...

T: Does LSD frighten you or do you understand enough about it ...?

E: Well, I would ... not LSD; you've read ... you've heard so much

about drugs and stuff.

T: Now is it all propaganda? I'm told you can, you know, have flashbacks

and stuff like this. Frankly, it scared me. If I had a curiosity

about it,.you know.

E: That's what they say. Uh, they ...

T:Q Maybe you have some friends or you know someone who's tried it and

has given you their opinions.

E: No, I know some friends, ... I know some people that tried it but

they don't ...I don't know.
'\ -. I .
T: 9 In your mind from what you know about it factually speaking, do you

think it would be harmful .... more harmful than marijuana? Person

who has stayed on it awhile ...

E: Well, any time ... anytime you break up the chemical process in your

body it's dangerous. You may _and ... and that's what ...

T: I'm told it harms ... it breaks down the ... the chromosome ...

E:. Right, it ... Cr,

T: Damages brain cells which is, I guess, if you' .

E: That's what I've always heard. And I take medical advice and I agree

with it.

T: Is that ... brain cells, are they able to reproduce themselves?

E: I don't think ... not brain cells.

T: Every other cell is except the brain cell.

E: I don't think ..

T: Once it's destroyed you just ...

E: You just gone for good.

14

LUM 94A

T: So you could what? Just become a,a vegetable or a non-human bein' *JI,

or ...

E: That's what they say. That's what they tell me. I, I don't know.

T: Well, I've read ... have you read books like .The Greening of America

or Future Shock?

E: No, I've read from from high school, a pamphlet on this thing is

one that I can remember.

T: Yeah, but have they taught this in the school, you know, what drugs

can do?

E: Yeah, since I'm from high school years, and junior high as long as I

can remember.

T: Well, let me ask you this: is there been any, any program in sex

education when you were in ... when you came on in high school? You

just came right out of high school right to college, you didn't have

any break in between schools did you, or did you?

E: Well, I went to school all the time; I went ... even in high school

I went to summer school; I've always been to school.

T: Do you like to learn or is it just catching' up for you?

E: Well, I ... I like to take other courses. See, in regular school time

like in an open classroom it would be different. But in regular

school there's alot of other courses you'd like to take and you can take

those and ...

T: That's the reason I've been around so long. I take ... I remember two

semesters I carried the whole semester things that I really didn't

need except that I was just interested in 'em. Do you find that you've

done this any?

E: Yeah, I like to go and take some interesting courses sometime.

T: Just for your own enlightenment or ...

15

LUM 94A

E: Right. That's correct. Yeah.

T: In high school do they have any kind of sex education programs?

E: Sex education? Well, in our high school ...

T: Sort of a hush word?

E: No, in our school we didn't have alot of old people and stuff on the

staff. We had alot of young teachers and so forth.

T: Did they talk ...

E: If you had any questions to ask, you just asked.

T: Were they a le to talk about it openly?

E: Well, ... I'm takin' a .. what class is this, we're takin' out here?

Education .It's hard to talk about it open in that class.

Russell 's class.

T: supposed to take an educational psychology.

E: Right, that's right, Educational Psychology, that's ...

T: So many things that you even ..

E: It's even hard to talk about sex in there.

T: Why do you think this is true? Has it been conditioned in us?

E: Yes. In the young generation coming' up now ...

T: You think we're a little more liberal ...?

E: Like reading' the newspaper.

T: I'm talking' about you, your generation. I'm probably a little bit

older; in fact ...

E: You can't be that much older.

T: Well, I'll say your generation. Uh, do you find that your more liberal

in talking' openly? Are you able ...?

E: Oh, when I was coming' up--oh, yeah, yeah, when I was coming' up, yeah,

I can go back as far as grade school. Way back in the sixth grade.

T: Did you discuss it openly with ... with adults and other ...

16

LUM 94A

E: Not with adults but with your own peers and ...

T: Yeah.

E: Adults, well, yeah, with my family and stuff, yeah.

T: How ... do you find it strange or a little bit uncomfortable in this

Educational Psychology course?

E: No, no, no, you know, you just have wise guys and you just giggle

and they just cut the fooling.

T: Well, somebody made some remark but of course you know Dr. Russell

is gotten the distinction of bein' one of the best educators in North

Carolina. His picture was in the paper today. I don't know they

get ...how he got that what someone on the other hand anytime you

achieve something good or if you get some attention you also get

criticized. Think someone has termed it: if it wasn't for sex, he

wouldn't be able to teach class.

E: Well, he's interested in it! Old Dr. Russell's real good.

T: Yeah, and he is ... has managed ...he's also a Episcoplaian priest, you

know ...

E: Gee, that's what they tell me. yeah.

T: ( I ) and learned this, and I've had

classes underhim, but he's able to bring it out in the open. I guess

he's had so much counsel himself ...

E: Well, look here ...when you're our age right here, it's time ...

you're s'posed to have an understanding.

T: Yeah.

E: You're s'posed to look at it..

T: You oughta know what's goin' on and what causes it anyhow ..

E: Yeah, I mean you're s'posed to look at it with a mature outlook and o'o

17

LUM 94A

T: Well, when you get what you're '...-. college and you
7
don't because really it's ... that's the dangerous

years.

E: Well, I ...

T: It's not ... or is it? Do you see not knowing as being more dan-

gerous than knowing? You know our parents say, well, don't tell 'em

about that, you know.

E: Well, it can work both ways.

T: They might try it ... they might try it, you know ...

E: It's like drugs, like tellin' you about drugs, it .. there's alot of

...you know there's alot of little tricks in drugs you can use and

people'll tell you about ... they used to tell us in high school not

to try this and I'd never heard of this before. Then people go on and

try it, you know.

T: That's what always kinda ...

E: Works both ways.

T: Yeah. Get's your curiosity up.

E: And look, you got so much literature nowadays.

T: Um, huh. You know, you have so much literature, you can read about

sex nowadays; you can ... even ... I was looking' at ... I was over at

this house looking' ... I think it was my sister ... my sister has

these teen-age magazines, and they even discuss the sex in those days-

now.

T: Um, huh,

E: She 's about sixteen.

T: How do you feel about pre-marital sex? Do you think this is good or

E: Well, I guess that depends on your religion then.

18

LUM 94A

T: Yeah, well, how would you personally feel? This is what we're

after, your opinion. Your opinion, I mean you know ...

E: Pre-marital sex.

T: Or pre-marital marriage, excuse me, trial marriage.

E: Trial marriages?

T: You know where they have a ... I'm sayin' propose something' like a

person gets a trial license to drive, you know, a permit ...

E: So you can a trial ...

T: Six months to a year ...

E: Trial wife ...

T: yeah, and, and at the end of that time come sit down and reassess

,yourself, 'cause it's been said that no matter how well and if you're

goin' into law, you're gonna see alot of this, no matter how,

how '. long you've known a person, you don't know 'em like you do after

you liW with them.

E: After you life with them. CI di,

T: Sit at the same table, sleep in the same bed and bathe the same bath-

tub and all this stuff and see 'em when they get up in the moAng and

when they go to bed at night and ... all their faults as well as some

of their assets so to speak. It's just a different picture and it's

been said that no one really benefits from divorce, when a person comes

to this point. But the A lawyer, you know he gets the money on it and

everybody else comes out hurt even if when you win, youknow, really

they're no winner. With children it's even worse. So to eliminate

our high divorce rate someone has proposed trial marriages. How do you

... I mean in this vain that I've been talking' ...what would be your

feeling on this? I know ...

E: With me it ... it would depend on ...well, this is my church right

19

LUM 94A

over here.

T: Um, huh.

E: That's where I go to church.

T: That's the rCC i

E: That's the Baptist, Southern Baptist.

T: Southern Baptist.

E: Yeah, yeah. It depend on to me it would depend on the couple.

How .. how do you look at it?

T: Well, I ... I'm like you I think it would ... several factors would

enter into it. But I'm trying' to get at your opinions, it's not mine

that's recorded on the tape.

E: Okay, ...

T: I mean, would you consider the ... you see marriage in the future for

yourself, don't you?

E: I believe ... don't you? I think everybody does.

T: Yeah, I think possibly, you, you do and you certainly wanted to think

about it as gonna be good or you know, it's gonna be a good marriage

that it won't be a failure. I believe ... I odn't think anybody

can really say well, if it don't work out, we'll get a divorce. May-

be some enter into it like that, maybe that's why they get 'em. But

how owuld you view this trial marriage thing? If it were acceptable

to society?

E: Well, I think nowadays it's about acceptable to society. You

got so many people livin' with so many people nowadays.

T: What about this communal living, you know where there's families and

families live together. Sorta goes back to the Indian concept, you

know as sharin'the land belongs to the all; and we till all and

you know, one ... I mean I'm talking about ,,

20

LUM 94A

E: Oh, you're talking' about where families are livin' with families

now?

T: Yeah. And each ... if one has a problem or distress the others pitch

in and help .

E: Well, I think this is good. I done a little reading' on that and

not a whole lot, but I like this, that's sorta ...

T: I'm not talking' about everybody sleep with everybody else, ...

E: No, I know what you're talking about --- family support, well, that's

good. They've been trying' ...

T: Each .T. together to try to preserve the land and you know, and

work and till the land together to ... to cut down on expenses and

things like this and try not to use up all our resources ...

E: Well, I think that's gonna be a big thing in the future.

T: You think that's .2..

E: Yeah, that's ... that's gonna really come out in the future. I'd

say about ... I'd say within maybe well, they're trying' to do alot of

this in New York, and the large cities now,-you find alot of this now.

I've done a little bit of reading' on that. Yeah, I ... I like that.

I'm all for that.

T: Well, let me ask you this. Do you expect to marry a virgin? You

know, ....

E: This ... that isn't important, uh, some people look at ...sexual

intercourse ... there's more to ... just, just the sex ... there's

more to it than that.

T: I agree. What else is there, though to you?

E: Personal ir'______5, you know.

T: Yeah.

E: That's ... that's where your money comes in, you know, there's more

21

LUM 94A

than two people than just sex. So, uh, it really wouldn't matter

that much. Not now, now in this day and time.

T: Well ...

E: It'd be nice ...

T: Yeah.

E: But uh, I don't think that's the important thing.

T: It wouldn't disturb you to know that you're wife had slept with another

man?

E: Ummm ..

T: But would you let yourself dwell on it?

E: I wouldn't dwell on it.

T: You wouldn't hold it against her?

E: No. I couldn't do that, not ... not at my age now.

T: You seem to have a pretty ...

E: You're what? How old are you? I won't ask your age, but ...

T: Well, I'm a little older than you are.

E: When ... when you get married again do you expect your man, your ..

male companion to be a virgin?

T: Well, I couldn't hardly expect that. Not at my age either..

E: Well, in this day and time ...well, at my age I'd i have to say about

the same thing too.

T: Yeah. Fact, I don't know ...

E: But it would ... it would be nice ....

T: Someone has said there's not many virgins around unless you're robbin'

the cradle. But I don't think it's quite that bad, do you?

E: No, I dt: think so. There's still alot of good people around. You

just hear about the bad ones. Still alot of good people around.

T: I think so. I believe ... like you say, just because you ... you're a

22

LUM 94A

a guy 6ti and you're with a girl and it's possible that you won't al-

ways ... it don't always happen, it has to have some meaning to it.

That's what you were saying, a while ago.

E: That'w right. That's correct.

T: You don't just jump in the hay or take a roll in bed just because you

can or it's there.

E: That's right.

T: Is this what you're sayin'? Or am I putting' words in your mouth?

E: I don't know, let's see. Repeat this little phrase again for me now.

Tv I'm sayin', just ... do you just ... go to bed for sex or does it have

to mean something to you?

E: Well, uh, ...

T: I mean just because you take a roll in the hay so to speak or because

the girl's there and willing ...

T: Well, alot ... nowadays ... the trend toward sex with alot of people

is just ,,, is just a, a relaxation. It's just pleausre. That's the

way society ... that's the way our society is ... the trend to go now

is just ... is just some ... pleasant thing, just like takin' a drink on

a week-end or something Sex.

T: They o( t see it ... any religious or particular moral now?

R: Well, I'd say ...

T: It's always been a paradox to me is the way (4Jr rlto, (c>cs I" ) t I'

r., I wonder ...

E: Well, nowadays, intercourse or uh, well, having sex is not a big thing like

it used to be. 11ike you used to hold hands and you're engaged or

something couldn't hold hands and or kiss in public and stuff like this,

... that's gone. That's gone now.

T: I think people are beginning to open up and see that it;s not altogether

23

LUM 94A

one's virginity, but their attitude about it is ... Someone said that

E: Well, it's gonna be ...

T: ... ( ) those that were virgins, I odn't know 'bout

that but it's been talked about.

E: It's good. It's good that ...

T: Probably a little experience does help both.

E: Now it's good to dis--, ...

T: marriage.

E: Right. It's good to discuss sex. I wouldn't go and marry a woman

that I'd never discussed sex with or anything like that. That'd ...

that'd be stupid.

T: Yeah.

E: You ... you have to discuss sex there. I don't mean necessarily that

you have to have nay relations, but it's good to discuss sex. I'll

tell you.

T: Right. How man'!...

E: See, sex nowadays is like a, an emotion. What it is, all it is, it's

an emotional outlet, sex is. I would say it is.

T: Well, I'll say one thinkor it, the good Lord itself thought it up

and I'm not about to kick it'

E: I'm not about to kick it either. I'm all for it. One hundred per cent.

T: However it's viewed everybody is, you know, is entitled to their own

opinion.

E: Sex ... sex is a special thing. It's special.

T Yeah. And people don't ... people don't tend to look at that anymore.
per cent
It's a pleasureable thing to them. I mean, id say seventy / of the

people do, but I'd say sixty; I'd say per cent of the people might do

24

LUM 94A

or I'd even go to say, about forty per cent of the people do.

T: In other words, that have sex before marriage or experiment with it or

E: I'd say sixty per cent of the people do nowadays.

T: Would you say on a regular basis or ?

E: Not ... what do you mean by a regular basis?

T: Well, I'd say if they go steady, you know ...

E: Sixty per cent ... yeah, sixty per cent at one time or another.

T: I'm not talking' of goin' out here and bein' promiscuous boys ...

E: Oh, yeah.

T: ...as well as girls, but ...

E: Right. Worse. Worse.

T: Yeah. I guess. YOu say that from as from a male's point of view,

but ... I can understand but I can't you know really view it 'cause

I've never been a male, and don't have any hopes of bein' nne.

E: Well, I imagine there's females the same way.

T: Yeah.

E: You're s'posed to be for Women's Lib now ...

T: Well, to some extent I'm for the Women's Lib, but I have to agree that -

wouldn't be any Woman's Lib if we didn't have any men around so we

have to keep them ... you around.

E: Compromise.

T: Yeah. I'm for equal pay in equal jobs ...

E: Oh, yeah, I'm for that too. Yeah, I'm ...women definitely ... in most

jobs I'd say yes, 'cause women are qualified why shouldn't they get equal

pay and so forth? I agree with them on that. I think women are bein'

cheated. They are bein' ...

T: Yeah. Do you think religion has held women back; made 'em feel that they

25

LUM 94A

for instance, I don't knmw, maybe you're read books like The Sensuous

Woman, The Sensuous Man, have you read those books?

E: No. I don't think so.

T: Well, for so many years if a woman enjoyed sex she was held back ... she

was looked at as a brazen husyy or some kind of thing like that.

E: Well, ... that ... that's all gone.

T: And even ... she wasn't even permitted to enjoy it with her husband,

much less I mean, you know, experiment anywhere else or anything like

that. It was just ... the trend of the times, Victorian, puritanical

kind of thing and, but I think maybe it's ... we've been freed to an
do you
extent, the more you see, the ../ think of the pill and contraceptives

more easily obtained has helped us or ?

E: Well, yeah, I'd say this has helped; yeah, a great bit. Well, this is

.. life has lifted sex up alot.

T: Yeah. Increased activity.

E: Increased activity, correct. That's right.

T: Do you feel that new experience or maybe this is a little before your

time, that ummm, that there was a fear of pregnancy on the part of

the girl that caused her to hold back and maybe that since the ..c rc-f

E: I mean ... I don't mean ... I, I think maybe at first it's a little

emotional but like you said on a regular basis you better have ... you

better ... a person gives alot of thought ...you have to give it alot of

thought.
0, r, -
T: Why do you see that if you have /? You evidently responsibilities

'0 to have the right to sex, do you view it as a responsibility?

Is there a responsibility involved as well?

E: Right. 'Cause when you ..when you ... in lines of sex you ...parenthood

26

LUM 94A

bound to come about, one time or the other. First. ... maybe '.first

time, second didn't, well, this is the intention, well, the outcome's

gonna be aprenthood.

T: Right.

E: But that's the outcome of intercourse.

T: Right.

E: ... is parenthood. And if you're not ... if you don't want to be a father,

you don't want to be a parent, you better make some kind of ... better

work out some kind of condition.

T: If this happened to you, say, you know, most of the people in the world

are accidents anyway, and you had an accident happen to you, would you
\\tC, o5p 'o -join" rf!-P' etlf l t i4 I

E: You'd really have to be responsible, even if ... I'd be a father and I

didn't live the mother, I wouldn't marry the mother, but I'd be respon-

sible for the child, you'd have to.

T: Would you consent to her having an abortion if she wanted one? Most

of the states are ... it's legal now but like alot of things they're not

... it's not implemented, but if she wanted one, she could get one.

E: No, I don't believe ... I don't believe in abortion. I don't ... I'm not

for abortion.

T: On what reasons do you base that, that opinion?

E: Well, my religious outcome, I don't ... I wouldn't believe in abortion.

I'd take the child myself.

T: Do you believe that there's any way you could ...?

E: I'd take it myself. Well, it would be damaging to me.

T: Is it murder or what? How do you ...?

E: WEll, I would ... to me, it's like destroyin' life, and I don't like to

destroy anything. I don't even like to kill a bug or anything.

27

LUM 94A

T: Yeah,.

E: And uh, it's just destroyin' life, it's the process, it's a godly pro-

cess and you ...

T: Well, suppose this girl is really upset, ummm, the other party in it,

could harm her psychologically, her whole emotional, mental make-up, ...

E: Well, you'd have to take this into consideration, too.

T: To have the child, I'm talking' about.

E: Well it would be ... you'd have to ...

T: If you saw it was going to make her go on the deep end and ...

E: Right, right.

"T: ______ mental institution.

E: That's right. That's right. You know, you have to take this into

consideration. But on the normal ... on normal terms you know, I

wouldn't let this ... you wouldn't let this come about.

T: Girls, too, have to bear the burden of, you know, of something that

you, pregnancy you can't sweep under the rug, it Es show.

E: Around here it's not a .. it's not a big thing anymore, not a ... I
0
'owuldn't say around here people don't hold it against you now like they

used to. Like around here in my graduation' class, I know at least ,

at least eight that had .. that were mothers before they were married.

T: Unmarried girls?

E: Right, uh, huh.

T: Well, did they keep their children?

E: Yeah, they're livin' a normal life.

T: And some of 'em ?

E: I don't think anybody'll hold it against 'em, I don't ... I wouldn't hold

it against anybody. I don't think it's as 4 as it used to be. Not

28

LUM 94A

now, not around here anyway.

T: Yeah. Well, this to me in one way is that society's ideas can

change on it. This will keep, you know, society of the consciousness.

'Cause many girls used to attempt abortion on their own, and butchers

and things fi like this.

E: Right. Yeah.

T: So maybe this is favorable. If this ... can be viewed from one side
'!Could
anyway. i/ you see it this way?

E: Well, not around here, not ... not here, not here anymore. It used to

be pretty bad at one time, but it's not like that f around here

anymore.

T: Let me turn this tape ... 's'cuse me just a minute.

Side 2, tape 1.

T: It may seem to you that we're dwelling a great deal on sex and abortion

and so on, but this is life and life process.

E: I agree.

T: It is not often that I do get ... well, maybe one a day in the four

perhaps that ...

E: You should Dr. Russell. This s his ...

T: Well, I did interview him. :That I'm able to get a person to talk

openly about it. I am able to, I guess, 'cause I have children and

I get questions and ... and we do talk frankly; if it comes to it

we use the four-letter words, but ... and they tell me jokes and some-

of 'em try 'em out at home before you go out ... you know,

out ... tell 'em out in front of anybody. But uh, they've helped

me a great deal in talking' open 44 about it. can't you

29

LUM 94A

just discuss it openly and so I'm able to do so, but ...

E: Well, nowadays, there's so much literature, like five years ago you

didn't have this. There's so much literature now--even in Boys' Life

and magazines like this here, they ... they discuss a little sex and

... and then ... high school now, you have counselling and stuff and

... and ... and you can feel free, to discuss ...

T: Do you remember your mother and father ever talking' to you and anything

about sex?

E: No, I don't think they ever did. Not me.

T: Did they expect you to figure it out for yourself or ...?

E: Well, I never did ask 'em; I never did ask 'em. They never did come

around and telling me. I never did ask 'em.

T: Did they ...

E: But now I'm not ashamed to discuss sex around my parents now or was

I when I was in high school.

T: Um, huh. Do they seem more liberal about it or is it .. hush-hush?

E: I don't think it's ever been hush-hush around our house.

T: Um, huh. Well, that might be J why you're able to discuss it a little

more openly than say the average person that I've encountered; and of

course this is just a smattering of people, you know, that I've talked

to. Probably not a hundred altogether except with these classes that

I've taught and I do believe in sex education. I think it ought to

start as early as the first grade.

E: Well, if a person ...

T: I mean you know on a elementary level and ... and uh, bring it up-to-date

...on a day-to-day basis.

E: WEll, if I were a teacher and everything like that I'd ask if anybody

ever had any questions, come, you know and ask me. You know, want some

30

LUM 94A

advice,but I can't their ever doin' that in high school. Except

when I was ... my eighth grade teacher, I had an eighth grade teacher

that done this.

T: She counsels on sex prob-- questions?

E: If you had any questions you wanted to ask you could ask. And in high

school ...

T: How did she make this easy for you to do?

E: If you had any kind of quesiton ... she was young ...

T: Yeah ...

E: I guess she was about twenty ...

T: 'It's a wonder she didn't get kicked out of school. -01

E: But she ... she went open about it ...

T: Um, huh. Because ... hold this just a minute. let me get a ... 4

E: Well, I ...

T: Used to teachers wouldn't mind helping kids with it, you know, and it got

to be a problem.

E: Yeah, like uh, ...

T: But if they talked about it and the kids went home about it, they had

... the Board of Education and every body else up there.

E: Yeah, then you had ...... right, that's right.

T: So it was really a flammatory, explosive thing. And that's probably ...

E: Well, we were in the eighth grade. We were older and I don't think

she got that many people ...

T: You iddn t go around blabbin' your mouth.

E: Right. I don't believe she ... many people went to her.

T: Well ...

E: The girls might have, but I ... I doubt any boys would have.
oo ooo
T: Yeah. well, you think there's a more emotional nature about sex

31

LUW 944

to girls emotionally than it does in the way they're

geared up.

E: I'd have to ask you that question.

T" Well, from your observations. You've been with girls, you know, you're

twenty-one years old, you probably started ...

E: Well, uh, ...

T: ... in grade school no doubt.

E: Well, I imagine ...

T" I mean do you understand or do you believe that it's more emotional with

women? In your opinion.

E: I believe it's more emotional with women. Some less than ... I feel a

majority, maybe yes.

T: Um, huh. By that I mean does it ... does it affect their psychic ...?

E: I feel that it affects any, everybody in about the same way, in the 0 same

manner.

T: Um, huh. Well, I mean that ... it's been said that men can take it more

casually. In other words have relations with a girl and go on and forget

about her. But to a girl it's got ... it's ... you know, she doesn't

forget that easy; it means more to her than just ...

E: Well, nowadays, the way it's getting now I believe it works in both

ways. It works both ways.

T: It seems that from my observation, the guys are beginning to realize that

... uh, ... and I like tds and all, beginning to realize ...

E: Some people look at ... look at sex as a special things

T: Um, huh.

E: Uh, intercourse is a special thing. And I guess that's when sex is more

enjoyable, when it's special.

32

LUM 94A

T; Well, it is special; it's a ... certainly many people relate it with

E: Right. It ... it ...

T: It's not something' to be drug through the dirt. There's a great deal of

movies now. We, you know, lot of nudity and sex and ... how do you see it?

How do you see it for ... for men?

E: Well, it's ...

T: Somebody says, "I;m sick of sex as far as the movies," and quite frankly,

I mean, I'm no prude, and I like airplanes, but every type ... every movie

I go see, I don't want to see 'em about airplanes. How do you feel about

movies and how they dwell on sex?

E: Uh, well, I guess these X-rated things are ....

T: Do ... do they hit it pretty hard or is it all ...

E: It's a money-making ... that's just a money-makin' scheme.

T: Yeah.

E: I say these X, X-rated things ... that's just for money; they don'tshow ..

alot of these movies ... around here they only show late at night. And ...

T: If you goin' to Fayetteville, you can see 'em...

E: Yeah, in goin' to Fayetteville you can see it anytime. But around here they

only show late at night ...it's just to me that's just a money-makin' scheme.

And people go see these X-rated movies, it's just a sexual outlet. It's

helpful and it's harmful, too. But uh, ...

T:, Well, it might be ... television came on the scene and Hollywood realized that

we're goin' to have to come up with something' pretty explosive, or had an

impact to get people out of their houses, it seem to me ... but then I'm

not sure they're gonna have to come on ... something' else ... violence ...

E: See, right ...

T: Violence has hit the scene now how do you view that.

33

LUM 94A

E: Now it's violence ... it seem to take a trend. Violence, well, I don't

like to see a movie with alot of violence, 'cept maybe ... I don't ...

I don't care for alot of violence.

T: Well, I'm like you I like to ... when I see a movie I like to go for

... feel it's recreation or something' ... I like to come out and feel

relaxed. 'Stead of shakin' ...

E: Relaxed, right. Instead of come out tense.

T: Yeah. Bite my fingernails off.

E: Right.

T: What did you think about "The Godfather", or did you get to see that?

E: Oh, I saw .. I liked that. I really enjoyed that even with all .the

violence; it was that type movie. You have to look at that movie in that

perspective.

T: Well, in that perspective, too. But didn't it have alot of tenderness in

it?

E: Some, yes. Yeah. In her feeling's. You could feel the emotion, right?

T: Um, huh.

E: In alot of mov--, Westerns and stuff don't have this.

T: Um, huh.

E: I mean you have to look at the acting, too-.

T: How did you feel about as the men would go out to do their jobs and bump'

off somebody, they would hug each other and ...

E: When I look at ... right, when I look at a r-movie, ....

T: And there was no, no air of ...air of homosexual about it, it was just

simply a nl i ic' .

E: Right, right. People's made this thing of homosexual ...

T: Two men touching ...

34

LUM 94A

E: If two men touch each other, they're homosexuals, like ... just like the other

day I was watching' this soap opera with my brother and these two women
and he
embraced each other,/said "look at those lesbians."

T: Um, huh.

E: And uh, ...

T: Women's always had a little more-freedom. I mean, you know, I hug my

cousins on greeting ...

E: Right, I agree.

T: ... my grandmother or you know, you sort of girls can be a little bit more

affectionate. I ... they say this is one of the reasons women outlive

men ; their life span; is that they have to hold their emotions back

a little more. Even to the point of ... they can't cry.

E: Well, homosexuals are fighting' back now in this country here right now.

T: They're fighting' back, yeah, they're fighting' back that they're not so

...in what way, what would you say that they-re not ...

E: Well, homosexuals, I don't think homosexual's that bad.. I mean, it's just

like anything else. Heterosexual, homosexual, it's the same ,... they

have the same ... that's the feeling' they got ... they can't help it.

They're bringing' it out in the open more and it's just like sex, you gotta

bring it out and look at it.

T: Well, the way I see it is like they may not like a certain recreation or
I
somethin'/like, but I don't have to go along with it but just because it

... they're different they're not necessarily wrong.

E: That's right., that's right.

T: It's just like an opinion, or a preference. I might t prefer to go out with

guys with ... tall men ...

E: Right. I wouldn't criticize a person because because he was homosexual.

35

LUM 94A

I'm sure there are.some around. There are homosexuals everywhere.

T: Have you ever had a curiosity about it? I mean if you want to ... can

you be honest and if you have I mean if it's a question you'd rather

bypass, okay. But it's been said that none of us grow up without having

had some curiosity about it and even experimenting' with it.

E: Well, you go through a stage, you now, if ... ummm, like it's something'

you learn to distinguish, you know. You know right from wrong, and

homosexual ... how can I say it? You may be ...

T: Let me ask you this ... how ...

E: You may be homosexual and you don't even know it, you're not even aware

of it.

T: Um, uh. Well, I believe it was Masters and Johnson in their research,

you know, they're a husband and wife team, studied people from all angles,

sex, havin' relations in every way and over a period of time, and I

think they came up with the theory that all of us we may suppress the

desire or the feeling but all of us are in sense bi-sexual.

E: Right. You got to be.

T: Can you buy that?

E: I'll buy that. I'll go with that 100%. Yeah.

T: I know there's times when I felt deep sympathy for a classmate or a

girlfriend or something like that, but I wasn't aware that they were

sexual

E: Like I like ... right ... you can ...

T: But evidently 'they:must be because says sex is the creative

force that controls ...

E: See, nowadays, well, uh, homosexual don't have to be illicit, or anything

like that.

T: Doesn't have to be what?

36

LUM 94A

E: you don't have to undergo some sexual act where you ... you reach ...

you have orgasms or anything like this here ... uh, men enjoy bein' in the

company of other men. Doesn't necessarily they have to have -any ... have

to touch. Right.

T: Any overt act, that is.

E: That's right. Agree.

T: Well, I think this is good. I mean I think we have to be with our own

identity as ... you .. you're a guy ...you bring your maleness back to

women from havin' associated with your father and then in turn other

males--else how you gonna learn, you know, learn to be a male. Alot

of it's just born in you, some of it, but some of it develops, too. Don't

you think?

E: Yeah, I agree. I agree 100%.

T: But it's this maleness that also appeals to women.

E: I'm glad.

T: Without it I guess ...

E: Women aren't doin' .too bad themselves neither.

T: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes women. you know, they get to the point where they're

not ... don't like their role :;-, as women and that's where this left-wing

thing came ... women's lib. You know, they got a bad name because alot

of lesbians got in on it and they came out with a left-wing thing called

"S-O-somethin', another" anyway, it meant "Stamp Out All Men." Now, now

I say, if I was in Women's Lib, I'm in National ...Women ...uh, Organization

of Women. That's jsut NOW, you know, they call it "Now." It's just for

equal pay and equal jobs and abortion, if you want it ...

E: Right. I,I agree on that too. I agree on ... I'm along with those lines

too. I'm not anti-female or anything like that, like some men just

dislike women. Abuse women and just dislike- women in general. I guess

37

LUM 94A

the same way in Women's Lib. They're anti-male altogether.

T: Yeah. In your opinion do you think homosexuals, men and women, are they

born or are they created as life goes along?

E: Well, from what I've read and I've never been associated with a homosexual,

but from what I've read and what interviews I've heard from it's just like

... it's just like if I were ... they enjoy relations just like I'm at-

tracted to you or you're attracted to me. They have the same feelings and

attractions. It's just something they can't help. The h>e

T: They have attractions for a man as you would a girl or a woman.

E: Well, yeah, in both cases, yeah. If a male ... if a bi-sexual has at-

tractions for both. It's something' they can't help. It's an attraction,

it's just something they can't help. Everybody's homosexual to a point,

I agree.

T: Whether they practice it or not.

E: To be homosexual you don't have to ... like I said you don't have in-

timate relations, or anything like that. Nowadays in our society when

you think of homosexual, that's the first thing you think of.

T: What?

E: Intimate relations and all this.

T: Yeah.

E: I don't think homosexual ...

T: Well, to me I think a homosexual is like somebody comes up and approaches

you, you can tell when they Have you ever experienced this?

With an overt act of someone giving yyou a proposal or a proposition ...

E: No, I've heard ... I've heard of people talking about coming' across

homosexuals open ...

T: You know, you go in a bar or maybe somewhere.

E: Right.

38

LUM 94A

T: To get out of this area I would imagine it would ...'course we may

have some here, I'm not tuned into it.

E: Yeah, you might.

T: ... too much. But I'm like you what I know is mostly what I've.read.

Like they say they can't help it so I'm not in criticism of 'em.

E: I'm not going to mock 'em either.

T: 'Cause there's alot of things I'm sure I'm not perfect on and I don't want

to be judged ton. I'm not a Bible quoter in a religious sense, but anyway,

you know, you don't want to be judged because ...in so doing it you judge

other people you bringing' judgment on yourself. Um, how do you feel about

... have I talked to you about how many children you'i supposed you

might have?

E: I believe ... I believe in bein' plentiful As many as I can support.

T: Now why would you feel that way?

E: Well, I was raised in a large family. dike a large family. I like

the interchanging of ideas.

T: Um, huh.

E: I'd like to have more than two children.

T:- You don't believe in Zero Population ... you don't think we're going to

smother ourselves to death ...

E: If it would come down to that they'd say, we wouldn't like for you to

have but two children, and ... if it ever got ... if I -was in this

situation I wouldn't have but two. They urge it. Like last year we

were below zero population,United States was.

T: That's what we way. That's just in this country, and I don't think

about the other countries.

E: Well, I want to have as many as I can support, as many as I can possibly ...

T: Would you consider adopting kids if it came to you only had to ...

39

LUM 94A

E: Oh, yeah, I'll adopt some, right I'd adopt some. I'd love to adopt some.

T: Would you adopt some of mixed origins, mixed races if it was part ...

E: Yeah, if I could. Right. Why not?

T: You know, you see ....I get some kind of magazine, I can't remember what

it is, always have the different kids' pictures to be considered for

.adoption, or you can have a foster kid across the sea, you know,

and send money for support. And that kind of thing.

E: Yeah, I ... I'd like that.

T: But I think if I was gonna have a kid to call it and support it and

everything, I'd want to see it around. Would you feel that way?

E: Right, I'd want to see it around. Yeah.

T: Yeah. Do you think that Planned .Parenthood is good? I mean, would
?
you want to space the kids or :1' would you rather they come as they might?
about
E: Well, well, when I'm talking' /-; as many as I can that would be planned

parenthood, yeah.

T: In your opinion how often do you think they ought to be spaced? L;Doy

youithink for the sake of nerves and for you to get adjusted to a new

baby coming in this kind of thing ...

E: Within two years of each mother/

T: Two years.

E: Like I don't even know ...

T: Where did you get this year ... where did you get this figure from, I

mean is it your own thinking ...

E: From my own family, yeah, from my own ... we've always got along good.

T: And you're spaced about two years apart?

E: Right.

T: Is that the way it is?

E: Um, huh.

40

LUM 94A

T: Do you ever hear ... do you ever hear your mother complain about it's just

too much work.

E: No. Oh, they always complain, but you know, you know how parents

are.

T: Really she enjoys having something to complain about.

E: Right, yeah, she's wantin' another one now. Here she is about forty-five,

forty-six.

T: Is that right?

E: Yeah.

T: Well, some women feel that this is, you know, it makes 'em feel needed.

Um, how do you feel about women ... would you want your wife to work?

E: Oh, yeah.

T: what ever she's .

E: That's right. I certainly do. I'd like to have one with a PhD. if she

can get it. I'm not hung on this thing of ... if I had a wife and she

made more money than I did, that wouldn't bother me. That wouldn't

bother me at all.

T: Would it be beneath your dignity to wash dishes or change

babies' diapers?

E: If my wife could ... if my wife could go out and make $30,000 a year,

I'd stay ... I could see myself staying home three or four years washin'

dishes and the diapers and stuff. That wouldn't bother me.

T: 'In other words you'd be willing to exchange roles if it was necessary, if

she had the opportunity for education?

E: Not ... not fully, like ...

T: Well, I don't mean exchange ...I mean

E: Well, I know what you mean. Right. I'd stay home, yes, two or three years,

maybe four years, something' like that.

41

LUM 94A

T: ?

E: Right. Yeah. If she got ... if she reached a plateau wherever she was.

T: Well, many women have done this to men, many wifes. You see evidence of

it ... "well, my wife put me through school", you know.

E: Well, that wouldn't bother me at all.

T: Then when you got above that .... Then when, you

know, the guys get out, the women stay home, they start their family then.

I think it's nice to have a compatible relationship like this.
It's
E: I believe in marriage as a partnership. I11 tell yoi./ Got to be ...

got to be looked at ... looked on like ...

T: Yeah. Well, that's ... that's a healthy attitude to have. I hope you'll

always keep it because sometimes when it gets in the rough roads and the

rocky ups and downs so to speak, hit rocky country, ...

E: Oh, yeah.

T: ...you ....

E: I lived in rocky country.

T: Yeah.

E: That's all I've ever seen is rocky country.

T: Well, maybe coming from a large family you do have a better insight_

to discuss things more openly. At least you get more

opinions, as you say.

E: Yeah, I like intermingling of ideas. I just don't like .. I just don't

like the exchange of a few ideas. I like the inter--, I like the conflict

in ideas.

T: Um, huh. How do you feel about interracial dating? Did I ask

you I that?

E: No, I don't believe you ,,. asked me about interracial dating.

T: No? Well, ...

42

LUM 94A

E: No, it's okay, it's alright.

T: It's usually one of my standard questions among students.

E: It's alright with me. I'm not racial. I ... everybody's racial but ...

T: Well, ...

E: I don't ... I really don't look down on it.

T: I believe. in race, and the human race, but I mean sometime they bring problems

on themselves.I think they have to .be prepared to

E: .Well, yeah, they have alot of probr--.. I don't think it's worked out ...

there's been alot of interracial marriages in the United States that ...

T: There alot here in our community we can see evidence of ...

E: Right. That's true.

T: 'Specially of white Indian

E: Right. Right. Well, I speak a little ... think in a little more stronger

terms like black and white.

T: Yeah.

E: Well, lots worked out okay ...

T: in the bigger cities I guess.

E: Right, in the larger cities.

T: But how would you feel I mean when you see a ... if you see a black and

white couple

E: Well, it don't ... it doesn't bothr me, not a whole lot. It's just one

of those things our society looks at.

T: or to some place public.

E: Well, that happens right here. I knows fellas that date ... date girls right

here.

T: I think there's a curiosity on the part of both races or three races or

1. four races or how many ... good gracious, I believe in the human race

that's all I know.

43

LUM 94A

E: Well, that's what I look at it too. I believe in the human race.

T: But then you do .......... then you do have to come down on the say, well,

you have some identity, you know.

E: Well, that's ... that's where it all lies--in identity.

T: Do you think there's a curiosity? In other words if the black guy that's

over c there does he have a curiosity about me. the white girl, and

maybe the white girl has a curiosity about the back guv?

E: I believe all races have that curiosity. We wouldn't be a race if it

weren't ... didn't do htat.

T: And alot of races there's a standardized idea about 'em whether it's true

or not.

E: It's an idea, right. It's an idea.

T: Sort of like all redheads are supposed to have a temper whether they do

or not.

E: Right.

T: Somethin' like that- ... Get attached (?) with .. French people are

supposed to be more sexy or

E: Italians supposed to be ...

T: More hot-headed, I know that.

E: Yeah.

T: You see that alot anyway. Emotionalism and that kind of thing. I J was

gonna mention something--I wanted to get back to the Godfather. You

were speaking' of acting when I cut you off.

E! Well, when I go to an movie I enjoy the acting. I lust don't enjoy ... I

just don't ... I really enjoy the acting. $ Like nobody else couldn't

a done that Godfather like they did. You couldn't a sit in and watched

somebody enjoyin' it, somebody else now. But the acting really made that

movie. That's what really made that movie right.

44

LUM 94A

T: And you're speaking' about the -.. the actor as ...

E: Well, I see a movie ... I liked all that ... I liked 'em all. When I

go to a movie...

T: They euy who played the godfather?

E: Brando. Like I like Brando in'The Godfather, but I don't know if

I'd want to see The Last Tango or not.. I don't know if I'd want to see that

or not.

T: Um huh. Umm. Brando in the Godfather was awarded an Academy Award,

given an Academy Award.

E: Yeah, an Oscar.

T: Do you remember that?

E: That's happened too many years ... that's happened two years in a row.

T: Well. do you remember what he did this'year?

E: Yeah, he done that.

T: What 'd he do?

E: Uh, he wouldn't accept in sympathy of, you know, that little thing they

got out at Wounded Knee' now.

T: And what was that? What was he really rebelling?

E: Well. that's what he said. That's what he said was his reason but .;.. my

father was out there last summer. You remember telling me about meeting'

Marlon Brando out there- Marlon Brando ...

T: He was out there to try to get ... something' about the rights of the Indians

out there .to

E: Well, he ... yeah, he owns a little ... he don't own any land out there- but

I think he has a home out there. I spends alot of time out there in the

summertime in the Badlands.

T: Were you ever aware that he was an Indian until he came out and made

a public proclamation?

45

LUM 94A

E: No. I sure didn't.

T: Ummm,

E: Well, he's not going to have anything to worry about. He's won an Oscar

already. He's got more money than ... he's not worried. A man in his

T: But he did turn the Oscar down as a ... to rebel the treatment of the

American Indian.

E: Well. that's what he said.

T: Wasn't that what he ...that's what he stated.

E: That's what he said.

T: He had someone to go in ... in his ... I believe some girl I read in the

paper ..

E: Right.

T! ... to that effect.

E: In ... in Patton, the guy in Patton he just refused it altogether. He

just said the Academy Awards was a bunch of bunk.

T: Yeah. I guess 4 maybe ... I read somewhere there's alot of politics

in it.

E: Right, I'd say ...

T: You tend to ... if you travel with a group of friends you favor them.

You know, 'cause you know more about 'em for one thing. So therefore you

may vote them in whereas the person 's not so well known, you 're not

exposed to 'em. that's the reason ...there's a red ant, he's gonna

bite you good.

E: That's about like Hackman in French Connection. I'll never know how he

got best acotr in that movie.

T: I didn't see i.that. I was supposed to supposed to eo sepe it. but some-

thing happened.

46

LUM 94A

E: I don't see how he got best actor in that movie. I'll never know.

T: Did you see the movie Billy Jack?

E: Yeah. I saw that. I thought that was ...

T: What did you think of it?

E: That was a good movie. It's a good movie to watch..that movie was lust

good to watch.. Just a story. It's okay. It wasn't anything special,

but it was nice- it was a good movie.

T: You didn't think it was special? In any ...?

E! Nothin' real special, but it was a good movie.

T! Not the acting or anything?

E! The acting wll, to me the acting was ... weren't that real good, you

know.

T: What do you do ...what do iyou like to do? We've talked about movies

as one of the things you do as recreation. What .-. when you go on a

date what are some of the things you like to do?

E: Just ... iust mess around, have a good time, like everybody else.

T: Are there any particular sports you like?

E: Oh, outside sports? Oh, I guess I'm ... I like about any type of sport,

any sport.

T: To participate in or .-.

E: Oh, yeah, I try to participate in all of 'em,but I'm fair in track, track,

veah-

T: Well, that's probably- you're ...

E: That's my sport.
that you can
T: What's your favorite spectator sport / look at and relax?

E: Spectator sport?

T: Well, you know, just to sit and look at.

47

LUL 94A

E; I: guess football.
T:
Football?

E: Yenh. It's okay.- I like to watch all of 'em. I don't like baseball.

T: You don't? Why?

E: It's too boring a game for me.

T: Does it move too slow?

E: It's too slow, right. It's too slow. You ... I enjoy watching' it sometime,

but it's too slow of a game for me.

T: Would you say you're an active person, you move fast T easily on things?

E: No, I'm a patient person, I ... I look at my-self as bein' a patient per-

son. But I like fast sports.

T: How did you feel about ... do you enjoy or do you feel that the school

could have- otalong ..., could have done without integration as such?

E: Oh, I'm glad we had integration. I ... I really enioy it. I wish wp

had some poeple overseas here. I wish we had some Frenchman, Englishman, ..

T: Someone has said that they really ... yeah.

E: I wish we had ...

T: You learn from these people.

E: Right. You learn from these people I wish we had some Europeans over here.

That's what I wish wp had-

T: Someone said they resented the fact that they made the tuition higher for

out-of-state ,people 'cause that maybe would make 'em not want to come.

E: Well, I don't think that has anything to do with us. Like we're,c.we're

affiliated with these large univeristies now--North Carolina State State,

Carolina. Well. I think what ... what goes on there is what effects,

what ... they make all the decisions up there. And in effect it just

comes on down the line.

T: But what they were saying they thought that people that come in from out of

48

LUM 94A

state we could learn, you know, people on the local scene.

exchange ideas and lifestyles and that kind of thing, you know.

E: I agree.

T: I don't know what ... what f it is now- I know it's considerably harder

E: Oh, yeah, it's alot ... now ... out-of-state person now could go to

Duke for what they go here. That's alot of money, about $1800, something'

like that.

T: Where do you have ... or have you umm, have asDirations or go to law

school?

E: I only eo to eitherwise Duke or I want to go to Chapel Hill, but what I'd like

to do is go out of state somewhere.

T: Is there any particular type of ...

E: I was thinking about Mexico, I thought about going to Mexico. but I'm

not too sure about that.

T: Is there any particular type of law that you'd lean toward or do'vou

just desire a little bit of all?

E: No, I'm not ... I'm going to wait and see.

T: You're going to hang our your shingle?

E: Right.

T: Or maybe go in with ...

E: I thought about business and I thought about criminal ... I don't know

for v- sure, I like ...

T: How about corporation law ... ? You know you heard the joke about

the man coming' in sayin' there was a criminal lawyer in here- ... Is

there a criminal lawyer in here? And he said "Well, no, I don't, I don't be-

lieve I am."

49

LUM 94A

E: I don't know if I ever heard that one.

T: What you mean ...vou don't -.. you gonna rep--, represent people or

micht represent Deople who have committed acts of crime rather than

you beine a criminal, criminal lawyer.

E: Right, right.

T: Um. do you think there's much crime goin' on in Robison CountAtoday?

I'm talking about stabbin' and killing' and shooting' and fires and

waht have you?

E: You're talking' about premeditated crimes. Is that what you're talking' about?

I believe most crime in North Carolina is or in this section right around here

is not pre-meditated. It's ...

T: It just happens on the ...

E: It just happens on the spot.

T: Pre-mediated, we're thinking' about is planned out.

E: Planned out. Right. But there is now .

T: What causes this now?

E: There is definitely .. well, this shooting' and killing' mostly, mostly

is from the ages from. from nineteen ... I'd say from twenty to thirty-
are
five or forty. 'Cause there/mostly accidents that occur. If_ you go to

court you can see this. People that set there are usually from the

age from twenty to thirty-five.

T: Do you ever go to court and;just-listen in, observe ...?

E' Yeah, I'm, I'm, "T- ... veah. I like statistics. yeah, I really like

statistics.

T: Well, you're going to have to deal with alot of it when you go to law

school. __ going with it.

E: Yeah. you have ... have to start knockin' it out now.

50

LUM 941

T: Yeah. I enioy, not that I enjov, you now. the ... I enjoy haring

court if it has to be. I always like to see some of the people ...

predicaments they get themselves in, but certainly ...

E: Well. I'm going ...

T: ... the strategy is good. Did you read To Kill a Mockingbird? Or see

that movie?

E: Yeah, yeah. I like it because it's interesting. What are you majoring

in anyway?

T: I'm educatiion major, i_ n speech and _.

E: Oh, yeah, that's right, you told me.

T: Yeah, but uh. ... law has always interested me though, but fact my

debating coach told me I ought t to go through the Women's Lib, and

YMCA, and all this, and go into it. It's just that I like to talk.
\ ya
E" Yeah- you got to have ... got to have a bell on/to be a lawyer.

T: Do you know Brantley Blue or have you ever observed him in a case?

E: No.

T: You know, he's the Indian Claims Commissioner, I believe, the Commissioner

E: Oh, Brantley ... I know him, I know him personally, yeah.

T: They say he used anger a great deal in his, you know plea to the jury or

... but its a controlled type of anger.

E: Everybody has their own style.

T: Yeah. Do you find it interesting to watch the different styles of

lawyers? Or how they- you know.

E: Well, ...

T: Some is real quiet and others is boisterous and and ... some pace and

some, you know, you just ... the ones ...

E: Well, that aspect of law really doesn't ... I really doesn't pay ... it's

important.

51

LUM 94A

Ti You're not aware ...

E: It's important.

T: ... of a thing like body language.

E: Right. I'm aware of that.

T: ...how you carry yourself.

E: That's a point they -really stress.

T: Yeah.

E: But uh, ...
of
T: The strategy /the right psychological moment of when to build a person up

and all of a sudden put the knife in.

E: Right!

T: How do you feel about this. you know. cross-examining--- do you feel like

sometimes the lawyers could be a little unmerciful or are sometimes?

E: Yeah. I agree they are. They are.

T: You do?

E: Yeah. Lawyers put alot of. alot of words ...

T: I want to know how you feel. I might need a lawyer sometime in, in the

next ten years. I'm sure you'.1 be through ..

E: Well, like you know like people like lnwye-s, you know, to get people

to come acroSs it takes-this stuff sometimes. It depends on the individual-

Some people ...

T: If I kill somebody and you took my case. would you use pvervthing at your

disposal regardless of how dirty you ... it meant that you had to be with

other people to win the case?

E: Uh, no. I'm- I'm voine to try to be fair, that's one thing if I be a law-

yer) gonna try to be fair which gonna be hard to do.

T: But to win sometimes, do you ...do you see sometimes have'to play it as

dirty if it means that?

52

LUM 94A

E: To win ... Well, that's the way law is, but I hope not. I mean it changes

a little bit from that.

T: Yeah.

E: 'Cause I know a lot of cases, people bein' caught on drug charges and let go ...

have got out of it. And that's what it come down to.

T: Um, huh. Sometimes it's not always fair.

E: It's not fair, that's right. That's correct.

T: It's who you-know and.how much influence you got. Do you see any relationship

between religion and law? You mentioned that you, you are a Baptist, Southern

Baptist and ...

E: Well, I'm not a member of any church and I don't like to say I'm Baptist, or I'm

Methodist or anything like.that so ...

T: You do go to the Baptist church?

E: Yeah, I ...

T: Feel more at ease and comfortable or something' there?

E: No, I just like that church over there 'cause ... my own peers, people I know,

people I associate goes there.

T: Y6u have a good youth programwand ;..?

E: Yeah, I, well, I ... I was youth program.

T: Is the choir what they___ ?

E: No, it's just ... you know, you can communicate with people over there. The

people I know personally and friends and so forth....

T: Who's the pastor over there?

E: Uh, ...

T: Well, anyway ...

E: Reverend Fox, I don't know, Henry Fox, something' like that.

53

LUM 94A

T: Maybe you just go to Sunday school and skip the preachin'.

E: No, I, I enjoy preaching. I really enjoy preaching. Religion lies more than

just, just 0 words. Religion goes alot deeper than that.

T: Well, to go back a while ago, to the same question again. Do you see any

relationship between law and religion?

E: Well, I always see .. when I there'sralrelationship between everything,

religion and me.

T: In other words, you ... you feel you have a pretty strong spiritual basis?

E: Yeah, I like to think so, right.

T: .... religious because sometimes you can get hung up on religion, to the fact

that it's -fanatical or ...

E: That's right, I agree.

TY What's some of the examples of this as-you see it when you get too far gone

on it?

E: Well, I ... just

T: Um, uhuh.

E: Just, well, you can't say it in words. I couldn't. I could stay, set

and talk about it all day.

T: It's hard to ...

E: You can't, you can't explain it, right, you can't say it in a few words.

In other words, ah, forget it, go on.

T: Well, maybe we'll come back to it if you catch it if it comes back through, let's

put it out. Umm, I'm told that there's a higher rate of suicide among the

Lumbee Indians. I've done a research paper and I've learned that it's second

highest killer among college students. Would you comment on this and tell me

why y-u think this is true?

E: A suicide?

54

LUM 94A

T: Um, huh.

E: T didn't know there was that much suicide around here- I've known of some cases,

but I really didn't know there ... I've heard of ...

T: The second highest nationally speaking and it's high among the L1mbee Indians

E: I mean what age group? What, what age bracket?

T! Well, this is ..

E- I never heard .. h-ar of young people but T hear of, of people in their middle

age- from thirty-five up.

T: It's, it's pretty high---nervous disorders and this kind of thine.

E: Right. I couldn't I don't know anybody personally that committed suicide,

I know one man that committed suicide but he'd been sick. He'd been sick

with cancer or -omethin' so long that he just oculdn't take the nain anymore.

T: Um huh.
the only
E: Well. that's /'. that I know.

T: That would be the most

E: That's Uight- rlIdon't know of any young people. I haven't ever known of any

young people to kill themselves.

T: Um, huh.

E: Around here.

T: There's a great ... I'm told and this is statistics and all ... I'm sorta, like

Will Rogers and only know what I read and sometimes, you know, that's not

gospel. so to speak, but they sayvit is high in this, in Robeson County area,

Robeson County Indians. It might ... could it be because of the i

frustration they feel of beine held back? Do you think the Indians have been

held back? In the vast.

E: Everybody likes to feel that they've been held back.

T: Do you think, you say ... likes to feel ...

E: I mean, yeah. I think peopleio. I think people like to Tfeel they've been held back.

55

LUM. 94A

Anybody. I mean anything that's ever ... ever in, in ...in the, you know,

S- -- or anything feel held back.

T: Um, huh. Well, you're saying that it's not necessarily altogether ...

E: Like uh- the Tuscarooras feel that they've been held back. And ..-

T: As a woman I've been held back I feel-

E: Yeah, I've been held back.

T: I learned to play pool at the YMCA,%WCA. __ good enough,

got good enough to give them a game, I'd everynow and then just ... the urge,

almost a compulsion to walk in a pool room but I know I'd probably get kicked

or insulted or something' like that 'cause I just like the game of pool. It's in-

teresting, you know, different shots and so on. But that's another one of those

things you i take as bein' a woman$it's a small thing, you know.

E: Yeah, I guess -.. I guess people around here have been held back.. I mean as

you say ...

T: Eve ody probably is their own way to a certain degree.

E: Right. I mean you're talking about ...

T: ..... LIke the Indians themselves, and you know. in the ... this area has really

been ..-

E: Yeah- I feel that they've been discriminated against, sure. I agree.

T: Do you think that' it's coming it's getting better though.

changing ...

E: Yeah, it's alot better- By 100% it's alot better.

^ T: And so you're saying' that we've come along way and we've still got a long way

to go.

E: They're more competitive now. Competive ... competitiveness does alot. helps

us alot. Anytime you can compete, anytime two people can compete ....

T: Alright. This is where sports comes in alot of times.

E: That's right. And I suppose the same way our ... our school right here is based

56

LUM 94A

on that---competitiveness.

T: I believe we've about run out of tape.

E: I believe we have, haven't we?

T: I hate to cut this interview ...

E: OH.'

T: ... because it's been interesting talking' to you, and I have enjoyed it. Usually

I hear about the same answers, you know, and you get pretty pat and expect what

a person gonna say, becuase you've got to ask the same questions, but I've got a

little different, maybe a little more honest, opinions from you and I do

appreciate it. I see you as a guy that's going places. ... You, you've pretty

well got i stacked up here and I hope you ...

E: I hope I'm eoin' ...

T: You got your feet on the ground, but you're going' places too, and I believe you

know where you're gnin' and I want to wish you luck on your quest for better

human relations, better understanding in the academic field and one of these

days I hope to see that attorney beside your name-

E: Yeah, we'll see you .-. we'll see you in teart-

MILLISECOND	CLASS.METHOD	MESSAGE
0	sobekcm_page_globals.constructor
0	sobekcm_page_globals.constructor	Application State validated or built
0	sobekcm_database.verify_item_lookup_object
0	sobekcm_page_globals.constructor	Navigation Object created from URI query string
0	sobekcm_database.verify_item_lookup_object
0	sobekcm_page_globals.display_item	Retrieving item or group information
0	sobekcm_page_globals.get_entire_collection_hierarchy	Retrieving hierarchy information
0	sobekcm_assistant.get_entire_collection_hierarchy
0	cached_data_manager.retrieve_item_aggregation
0	cached_data_manager.retrieve_item_aggregation	Found item aggregation on local cache
0	item_aggregation_builder.get_item_aggregation	Found 'all' item aggregation in cache
0	system.web.ui.page.page_load (ufdc.page_load)
0	sobekcm_page_globals.constructor.on_page_load
0	html_echo_mainwriter.add_style_references	Adding style references to HTML
0	html_echo_mainwriter.add_text_to_page	Reading the text from the file and echoing back to the output stream
38	html_echo_mainwriter.add_text_to_page	Finished reading and writing the file