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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
Subject: Miss Patricia Blue
Interviewer: Lew Barton (I: interviewer)
Date: May 20, 1973
Typist: Josephine Suslowicz
I: This is May 20, 1973. I am Lew Barton interviewing for the American Indian
Oral History Program under the auspices of the University of Florida's History
Department and the Doris Duke Foundation. Today I'm privileged to be here in
Washington D.C. or near Washington D.C.--in Fairfax, Virginia really--in the home
of Commissioner and Mrs. Brantley Blue. Uh, their daughter Patty has kindly
consented to give us an interview. Patty you're very kind to agree to give us
this interview now, and we're very grateful to you. What are you listening to?
B: This is Floyd Westerman's album. He's a Indian's Johnny Cash.
I: How do you feel about Floyd and his music?
B: He's, he's pretty good.
I: Oh, great. I like him too. Have you ever seen him?
B: Um, yeah. I saw him give a concert.once down in Pembroke, North Carolina.
I: Oh that's great. I saw him too. I'ld like to spend a lot more time with him.
First we better establish your name and age and. .
B: I'm Patty Blue and I'm fourteen years old.
I: Uh-huh. And your parents are?
B: Brantley Blue and Dorothy Blue.
I: Um-hum. Where do you go to school at Patty?
B: Frost Intermediate.
I: How do you spell that? F-R-O-S-T?
I: And this is near Fairfax?
B: Um-hum. It's in Fairfax.
I: Uh-huh. What grade are you in now?
B: I'm in eighth grade.
LUM 85A 2
I: I'll bet you make good grades too, don't you?
B: Pretty good.
I: Uh, what do you--what kind of sports are you interested in?
B: Um, all sports.
I: What's your favorite?
B: I guess running--track.
I: Um-hum, that's good. We've got a good track team over at Pembroke State University
by the way. Um, do you have any hobbies?
B: My friends are my hobbies.
I: Your friends are your hobbies. That's good. Uh, I want to ask you something
about this little dog who's running around here. I heard him called a Lumbee
Indian dog. What, what's his name?
B: F Eeco.
I: Feco. F-E-C-O?
I: Uh, he's a cute little rascal. What kind of dog is he?
B: A poodle.
I: A poodle, uh-huh. Uh, have you adopted him as a Lumbee Indian dog?
B: Yeah. Yes.
I: I understand you got,;uh, some papers signed and everything. Would you mind
reading those for us? Hello, Feco._ Feco heard her--heard us talking about
her and she just crawled right up here in my lap. How are you girl, huh?
You're quite a dog, you know that? I think I understand now why she got into
the act, because you know, in the first of the tape here--on the first of the
tape, I called her a he and I don't think she likes that at all, do you girl?
Now that we've got the matter of Feco's sex cleared up, and she seems to be a
little more relaxed, would you read us those official looking papers Patty?
LUM 85A 3
I: Start at the and read them if you will.
B: Well, we thought as a joke at first, we would get her some papers, since she's
a French Poodle to make her a Lumbee dog; and the papers say "Whereas the
Brantley Blue family, presently located in the Washington D.C. area, is a full-
blooded Lumbee Indian family, and whereas the Blue family owns a dog known far
and wide as Feco Blue, and whereas Feco is in fact a blood line toy French poodle,
but is greatly desirous of becoming the first full-blooded Lumbee dog,now therefore,
the Blue family, constituting 100 percent ownership of Feco the dog in compliance
with the wishes of the dog, hereby apply to the Lumbee Regional Developments
Association for properly certified and duely authenticated document naming her
as the first full-blooded Lumbee Indian dog."
I: Oh, that's great. Who signed--who's that signed that?
B: Every member of our family.
I: Oh, every member of your family. It was notorized too, wasn't it?
I: And, uh, I'ld like to know what the response to that was. Was that .?
B: "The full-blooded Lumbee Indian dog certification. This will certify to the
extent, such power and authority exists on behalf of the L.R.D.A. that Feco
Blue, a dog, is owned by Brantley Blue family. This will further certify that
Brantley Blue family, each and every one of them, proclaim themselves to being
full-blooded Lumbee Indians, as the term is generally recognized and accepted.
As such, they have made application on behalf of their dog, Feco, to become the
first full-blooded Lumbee Indian dog, and recognized as such in as much in official
capacity as can presently be done. Now, therefore, to the extent it is possible
for this group to do so, the Lumbee Regional Development Association does hereby
recognize and designate Feco Blue as the first full-blooded Lumbee Indian dog.*
I: Signed by?
LUM 85A 4
B: Signed by A. Bruce Jones.
I: Hey, that's great. Congratulations Feco. I noticed that after we started the
doorbell rang and so we had to interrupt the interview for just a little bit.
Uh, and there was a young man out there. Could you tell us about this young
man? Is this your young man?
B: Yeah, it's my boyfriend. His name's Greg.
I: Oh, that's great. Greg? What's his last name?
I: Uh, how do you spell that?
I: Uh-huh. That's great. You're not planning anything drastic. .
B: No. (Both are laughing.)
I: Patty, Feco apparently considers herself to be a Lumbee Indian. How about you?
What race do you consider yourself to belong to?
B: Lumbee Indian.
I: That's great. Uh, Feco would you please move along girl?
When she hears
her name called, Commissioner, she comes this way doesn't she? (No audible
answer.) How about your father? Are you and he seem to be very close. You
seem to have a beautiful relationship--father and daughter relationship.
I: Oh, that's great. Um, do you go to him with all your problems?
B: Most of them.
I: Uh-huh. I'll bet he comes to you with some of his too, doesn't he?
I: Uh-huh, that's good. Uh, how about the generation gap then? There doesn't
seem to be one here that I can detect.
LUM 85A 5
B: No, I don't think so.
I: You don't think there's a generation gap between you and your father?
B: Um-muh. (Negative)
I: I didn't think so either. I think that's beautiful. Uh, do you have, uh,
encountered any--any kind of Indian prejudice in and around Washington? Have
you? Or where about?
B: Not in my age. None at all.
I: Uh-huh. That's great. I think Indian is--is, uh, it's a in most
areas, don't you?
I: We think--we consider it that anyway. Uh, this program is about the life style
of the Lumbee and other groups of Indians, and, uh, in as much as you live
out of the Indian communittee proper, uh, I wonder if, uh, there are any
contrasts that you could think of between, uh, say life back in Robeson County
and life in Fairfax, Virginia or Washington D.C.? Uh, have you thought about
things like this? At all?
Bi Mm, I've thought about it. It's--I, I liked it better down in North Carolina.
I: Say you
B: Seems a lot nicer and it's calmer. I like it.
I: -u c.k;i it's sort of a feverish pace here.
I: It's a big city-anyway, isn't it?
I: I was coming along and I was trying to think of some words describing-
Washington D.C. and, uh, the stone impressed me, and the concrete, and, uh,
things like this. Uh, did--does it seem a little bit cold to you, uh?
B: Mm, I never thought of it as cold.
LUM 85A 6
I: You haven't. Well, that, it's--it's perhaps because you're fami--more familiar
with it than I.
I: As a new-comer coming into the city, it seems a little bit grey, and, uh, stone
and concrete and so on. I'm glad you. .
B: I think it's very dirty.
I: Uh-huh. Yes, but this shows you that I was a little bit prejudiced I guess.
I: Coming from the rural area and everything. Who are your musical favorites? Do
you have any preferences? All young people do, I'm sure.
B: Yeah. I like the rock groups.
I: Do you. .
B: of them.
I: Do you like hard rock, or do you like, uh, something a little softer.
B: Once in a while I like hard rock, but most of the time I just listen to regular
old rock-and-roll on the radio.
I: I'm not trying to force my favorites on you, but what do you think of the
B: I think they're a little old for me. Maybe I'll like them in a couple of years.
I: (Laughs) That's great. How about the Chavis Brothers who come from the Lumbee
B: Mm, I'm proud of them, but I could go too.
I: Uh-huh. They're a little old for you too, aren't they?
I: Wow, that's great. Well, may the Lord bless to them. Do you like any--do you
have any other favorite Indian artists?
B: Um. .
I: How about Miss St.--is it Miss St. Claire? How do you--Miss St. Marie. I'm
sorry. I'm a little bit nervous talking to you, Patty. You're not the nervous
LUM 85A 7
one; I am.
I: You're very lucky I think you get yours from your
wonderful father and mother. It's kind of natural with you. Uh, we talked a
little bit about Floyd Westerman. Uh, do you remember--do you have a favorite
song on that album of his by the way?
B: Anthro song.
I: The Anthro song. Oh, yes. This is the one which says, uh, here comes the--the
anthros. Better hide your past away. Here comes the Anthros on another holiday.
I think--do you think this is a little annoying? Uh, two of the American Indians.
B: It must be.
I: .are anthropologists who are always around. Uh, uh, I've noticed how much
you think of Floyd Westerman--the album. Uh, do you consider him to be a protest
I: Um, have you thought much about the things that he protests? How do you feel
B: Oh, I think he's right. He just protest against the main ideas against the
I: Uh, the ideas in America which stand against Indian men?
I: Uh-huh. I think he's very effective, don't you?
I: He has such a great band. Have you noticed that he has retained, uh, the
authentic Indian beat in many of these songs, and these sort of combine with,
uh, modern music, too, don't they?
I: He's sort of brought about a wedding of two different groups, or two different
LUM 85A 8
cultures, as far as music is concerned, it seems to me. Do you. .
I: Oh, yes. I--I like that. What do you--how do you feel about Sonny and Cher?
B: I like their TV show, and I think they're funny. Most of my friends like their
songs, but I'm different. I just don't like it too much.
I: Is that right? Uh, she has a song that I like very much. I, I suppose that it
became a hit recently, and it's called "All I Ever Need Is You."
I: She does something special to her songs, it seems to me, and I--I just happen
to like that particular one. Patty, I usually ask all my interviewees this
question. I know it's a hard question. Uh, but I want to ask you anyway because
I'm sure you're equal to--to any questions of this nature, even though it is
very general. Suppose, just suppose you had the power to rub some kind of
magical Aladin's Lamp and you could have your wish--any wish you wanted
related to the Indians and their problems. Uh, what would you change about the
Indians and their problems and their plight, or whatever?
B: Well, most of the problems, um, go back to the You'ld have to move
it back and change the way they were treated many years ago, but they would
need a better place to live and just try, somehow, to lose off our--the war
between the Indians and the White man, but that's impossible.
I: Uh, yes. They, uh, there are many things in the past which I feel that perhaps
most Americans would change. Um, but, um, of course we can't change the things,
in the past--how about the present? Do you--what would you change in the
present, uh, would you like to comment at all on this?
B: Mm, the best things is--the two things to change is where they live, I think.
We need money. Where they live is unproductive land, and
I: Um-hum. In other words, instead of having them live in the swamps and the
mountains and the deserts and on all those places where--those unproductive
LUM 85A 9
places, uh, where they've been more or less forced to live, you'd have them
live in more productive. .?
I: .. .parts of the country? Um-hum. That's good. I sort of feel this way too.
Everything considered, do you think being an American Indian is an asset or a
liability? Do you?
B: I think it's an asset because men--everybody seems to think so. They all want--
they all claim that they have Indian in them. It's just a simple pride.
It's, well, at least people--kids my age just love the idea of being Indian.
I: Uh-huh. And do you think Indianness then is increasing in popularity?
B: But I guess when it gets over, it gets worse. Maybe--I'm not too familiar with
it, but jobs and things like that might discriminate.
I: Um-hum. And, I've made this statement and I'ld like to have your opinion of it
if you don't mind giving it. I said that today is the most benevolent period
for the American Indian in American history, perhaps. Do you think this might
be true, or do you think this is an exageration, or do you think it's pretty
accurate? I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but don't mind disagreeing with
B: No, I agree with you.
I: That's great. I think it is true. I think at last the American Indian is
speaking. For a long time he remained silent and, uh, didn't say anything. Do
you think this was because he didn't feel that he would be listened to anyway,
if he spoke?
B: Yes. That's one reason.
I: Patty, here you are living in the Washington area about 400 miles from Pembroke
and Robeson County, and yet you, uh, manage to retain your Lumbee Indian identity
LUM 85A 10
and Lumbee Indian pride? Uh, I just wonder how you go about this, uh, you know.
It seems to be, uh, a little remote from the Lumbee Indian communittee, to say
the least, and a lot different. Uh, could you tell us some of the things that
you do to keep contact, or you and the family--your entire family I'm speaking
B: Yes, we have very close communication. All our trips are spent going down there;
we've got three telephones, mm, there, um, telephone calls long distance so Dad
spends a lot of time on the phone; the newspapers, uh, we got the newspapers from
up here; letters, everything, you know, everything.
I: Um-hum. Does he have very frequent consultations with, uh, Lumbee Indian leaders
and this sort of thing?
I: Oh, that's great. Patty I don't want to give you grown-up questions, but I--
although I you'ld be adequate with just about any kind of question, grown-up or
otherwise, but I'm wondering, are you aware of the evolvement, professionally,
the professional evolvement of the Lumbee Indians, uh, the ways, uh, we're striving
to improve ourselves professionally, and, uh, if you're aware of the--any progress
along those lines?
B: Uh, yes. For education. Um, that's our tower of, um-- happened that
I've met. Arnold Lockliar.
B: Um, he--he just graduated from law school, and his gonna be--he was
first in his class in his career is gonna help the Lumbees.
I: Oh, yes.
B: And then another one was Donald Bullard.
B: He was, uh, another one. He was--they all helped. Dad and I met him.
LUM 85A 11
I: Um-hum. So you've had a chance to, uh, meet them and talk with them, and they
probably come to your Dad for advice, uh, this sort of thing?
B: I guess so.
I: Um, that's great. I think that this is one department, uh, in which we've been
a little efficient in--in numbers. I mean numerically speaking. We just haven't
had enough legal talent..
I: .and that which we had we weren't--we weren't always able to develop, and it
looks very hopeful now with the, uh, you people graduating and everything,
I: That's good. Patty I imagine that, uh, during, uh, your stay here, perhaps you've
had the opportunity to, uh, visit other Indian groups and, uh, that in doing so
you probably receive-deffinite impressions, though this is a--this is an assumption.
Uh, have you had such opportunities?
B: Uh, yes. We went to see the Cherokee reservation two years ago.
I: And who was this when you say we?
B: Oh, my father and I.
B: And, um, the first--when I got there it was nice. It was a nice day in the summer,
and everything, but there--it was--there--there was too many tourists. It didn't
seem like the real thing to me, it just seemed like a Hollywood movie.
B: But then we met some real Indians and they took us in a car and showed us the real
reservation where the people lived and there little houses, and, and it was
beautiful country but they were--seemed like they were real poor.
B: But the--but the main--the main town of Cherokee was all billboards and signs and
LUM 85A 12
shops and it didn't seem authentic.
I: Now this was the North Carolina Reservation?
B: Cherokee, yeah.
I: Uh-huh. In western North Carolina--Cherokee North Carolina, right?
I: Of course, I don't know that our listeners and, uh, readers, uh, knew this but
there are two distinct groups of Cherokee Indians. Maybe I should footnote
this right here and say that Cherokee comes originally from western North Carolina
and, of course, they were removed from North Carolina under President Andrew
Jackson, and, uh, the main body removed to Oklahoma which was Indian territory
at that time, but some of them remained in the mountains. Some of them did not
want to go. They hid out in the mountains; they did not go, and so this is why
we have the two groups, and so today they do have a federal reservation at
Cherokee, North Carolina as well as the, uh, group which is in Oklahoma, and this
was the North Carolina group which you visited.
B: Yeah. We saw a play about the here. Is that what it's called?
B: That's it.
I: Uh, what were your impressions of this play?
B: That was great. I loved it.
I: Did you cry?
B: No, but. .
I: Did you feel like it?
B: Yeah, I'm sure some--most people were.
I: Um-hum. Sincewe're mentioning things like this, or at least I did mention tears,
and the Indian is supposed to be stoic--this is the Indian stereotype--uh, do you
think Indians are as stoic or unfeeling or--as most people assume? Is this--or do
you think the stereotype is wrong--out of or something like that?
LUM 85A 13
B: In the movies they sure are, but, uh, really I think, uh, it's played up in the
movies, but I think they really are; my relatives are--my Indian relatives are.
I: They are stoic?
B: They seem to be.
I: Uh-huh. But they do feel.
B: Um-hum. They sure do.
I: Uh-huh, but they don't express their feeling perhaps as much as other people?
B: They don't seem to as much. They're--they!re just not overdramatic like lots of
I: Uh-huh. That's very interesting. There's another stereotype I want to ask you
about. Uh, are most Indians--Indian women particularly--shy do you think?
I: You're not, are you Patty?
I: Do you resent such terms as squaw, and you know.
B: Um. .
I: Do you think it's been misused, or. .
B: I've been called one, and I don't like it.
B: I don't think--I think it's been misused very much.
I: And you--do you think this is the reason that you don't like it?
I: That it has been mis--a word which is misused?
B: Uh, I'm not ashamed of it, but I just don't like the way that they use it--the way
they say it.
I: Uh, Patty we've been talking about Indians, but, uh, there are other impressions
that even an Indian girl receives, uh, and this is good too. Uh, all the things in
our lives are not Indian or even Indian connected, so would you mind talking with
LUM 85A 14
me just for a bit about, uh, you know, other things that are interesting to
young people. I mentioned the so called generation gap.
I: And, uh, we established that this generation gap certainly doesn't exist between
you and your father. Uh, you have such a beautiful relationship, but, uh, do
you think this is generally true of our young people today?
B: Uh, many of my friends have problems like that.
I: Yes, and it's too bad, isn't it?
B: Um-hum.'Do you think there is something constructive that young people can do to
close the generation gap and that older people could do to close it?
B: Well, I've never--I've only been on--we're seeing this from the kids view, but I'm
sure lots of kids cause it by being disrespectful or not appreciating the things
they have, and things like that; and not--and not understanding that their parents
can't afford them, and they're not just being busybodies.
I: Ur-hum. Uh, do you think there's something also that we older people might do?
I'm sure we're, um, uh, maybe we're not entirely to blame oin this.. I-know that
as a parent and as a former school teacher I can say this for myself. I make my
own concession for things; everybody else will have to do the same. now
what is the--what is there that we older people could do now?
B: Just remember that they were young once too.
I: Oh that's great. Uh, I do have a strong interest in young people--working among
them in the poetry program, and, uh, I'm proud of the relationship that I have with
young people. Uh, I've been trying to work on this generation gap which is, uh,
perhaps it's a little selfish to ask you about these things, but I'm sure they
would feel very interested--other people as well, um, and I think you've given
us good advice, uh, both older people and younger people.
B: Thank you.
I: Patty I want to talk to you about a general attitude which seems to be held by we
LUM 85A 15
older people about the younger generation, and, of course, I don't feel this way
and you know your father doesn't feel this way, but do you think that some of
our older people feel that, uh, our young people today are going to the dogs, or
they're not as moral as young people used to be. Do you think this is a definite
feeling among some older people?
B: Yes, I do.
I: Uh, do you think that this is unjust?
B: Very unjust.
I: Uh, do you resent this kind of attitude today?
I: Uh, I guess just about anybody would. Uh, this too is perhaps a part of the
so called generation gap. Uh, do you think, uh, this is a fair assessment?
Do you think that, uh, they simply don't understand young people as, uh, they
B: Yeah, that--I think that's the problem; they don't understand.
I: And perhaps there is something on both sides that might be done to, uh, bring about
better understanding--better report between parents and. .
B: This all goes back to the generation gap.
I: Right. It's a little bit different aspect of it perhaps.
I: Patty, are there some things you would like to say to other young people? Are
there some things you would like to say to older people? And assuming that these
would be willing to listen, I'm sure some will anyway, are there some general
sort of things you would like to say along these lines, uh, about young people
and older people, or to them? Make any comment that you like. It's--the mike
is all yours.
B: This problem about helping teenagers, unless--has been for a long time, and I
guess it will go for a long time into the future, but right now there's not a
LUM 85A 16
whole lot you can do about it un--unless you desire to do something. There's
no way you can help it unless you really care, and if--if you have a problem with
someone and you really care to, um, fix it up and make everything all right, and
the other one does--like if you're a teenager and you really want to get along
with your parents and your parents don't care, then there's just no way for it
to work out. And it's the same thing the other way around. But, most of the
problem seems to be--with my friends--their interests are kind of selfish and
they don't think enough about the other person, and that can cause lots of prob-
lems with money and doing jobs around the house--things like that; getting to
go out or stay home and keep your parents company, and, and they should just
be more aware of the other person's needs.
I: Patty, since we're talking about young people, generally--and I'm very deeply
interested in young people, I'm one of their greatest fans perhaps--uh, I don't
agree with everything that's said about young people by any means, I think we've
got the best informed generation ever, and, uh, I think they are superior to us
in many ways, simply because they have more advantages and so forth--so many
other reasons, but, uh, talking about young people generally, I would like to
ask you ab cut this love idea that young people have put forth and, you know, as
expressed in the song "What the world needs most is love, sweet love" and, of
course, if you're a prejudiced older person you might assume they mean another
kind of love, uh, but the one they really mean--I'm sure I understand young people
when, uh, they say this. I'm sure they mean, uh, the love of, uh, each of us
for our neighbor, and so forth. Uh, I'm not raising my question very well I'm
sure, but I just wanted to be clear. Uh, what do you think of this love idea?
Uh, do you think, uh, it would solve a lot of problems if we simply loved each
B: You would solve most of the problems there is.
I: Oh, that would be great. You think we could solve all of them. Well, if you love
LUM 85A 17
somebody, you're not going to steal from them, you're not going to cheat them,
you're not going to injure them in any way, um. .
I: I think I agree with you there that perhaps it would solve every problem that
there is--a wonderful answer. Patty, could you be a little more specific, uh,
about what you mean when you say that love could be or would be a solution to
all our problems if we had it in the right degree?
B: It seems like if everybody loved each other, that there wouldn't be any
and there wouldn't be any evil. So, there wouldn't be any hell or devil, and
the earth would be heaven, and in heaven there's no problem.
I: Are you saying that if there were perfect love down here the earth would be more
I: Well, thank you very much Patty. You've been a very interesting interviewee, and
you're very kind to give us this interview. We thank you very much for the History
Department of the University of Florida and for the Doris Duke Foundation American
Indian Oral History Program. Thank you so very much.
B: You're welcome.
I: In order that our listeners and readers might better understand the music to which
we referred during this interview, we are closing this tape out with music by