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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 82AB //f w /
SUBJECT: JEFFERY EGeKEE3R
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
DATE: JUNE 8, 1973
TAPE: ONE
SIDE: ONE
PAGE: ONE
I: ...with the Doris Duke Foundation Oral...American Indian Oral Histories
Program, under the auspices of the University of Florida. Today is June 8
figh2 th 1973. I'm in Pembroke, North Carolina at the Lumbee Regional
Development Association. I'm interviewing Mr, Jeffery Steven Maynor today.
This is Janie Maynor Locklear.
Uh, Mr. Maynor could you tell me how long have you been employed here
at LRDA?
S: Approximately twenty months.
I: About twenty months. Uh, what is your job title presently?
S: Business specialist.
I: Did you uh, originally come to the LRDA for that position, or have you
worked in other positions?
S: Uh, I started with LRDA uh, like I said, twenty months ago. At that time,
the agency had a position for two community...or outreach workers,
community aids. And they decided to combine the two aids, to give me a
job in economic development, because at that time they had uh, submitted
a proposal to OEO for economic development rank.
I: Right.
S: So what I worked on the first eight months that I was here uh, was in
economic development in various areas. Similar to what I'm doing now,
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...but the title then I think was economic development specialist.
I: Right, uh huh.
S: So when we got the grant, business development was what I was mostly
concerned with then, and that's what I'm doing now.
I: Um huh. Uh, andLthis uh, particular program was funded by who?
S: OEO.
I: OEO. Uh, due to the nicks and cuts in OEO's funds, uh, do you see any
cuts in your particular program here? Do you forsee...?
S: To be truthful with you...I'll leave that to the administration of the
office here. And that's their worries. I try to do what I'm hired to do,
and I feel like that's what they're hired to do...look after the
funding of the agency, and I leave those worries with them, and that...I
try not to get involved there.
I: O.k. Uh, tell me a little bit about yourself uh, Mr. Maynor before we
go any farther, a little bit of background as far as your age, and uh...?
S: My age is thirty-four, I'mi4pobably...
I: And when is your birthday?
1
S: March tcha..fif-teerrth.
I: Nineteen...?
S: Thirty-nine.
I: 1939. Uh, who...what community, uh, in Robeson County were you raised?
Are you originally from Robeson County?
S: I'm originally from Robeson County, and raised in the Pembroke area, or
I went to Pembroke school.
I: Um huh. Uh, did you...you went to both grammar school and high school
here in Pembroke?
2
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Yeah.
I: Uh, and what is your parents name?
S: Wayne Maynor, and Lucie Maynor. My mother died in '68.
I: '68. How many children were in your family Mr. Maynor?
S: Four, and an adopted daughter.
I: Uh huh. And uh, what are their names, and what are they doing at present?
S: My oldest sister was Faye, she lives in Los Angeles. She's a secretary
for the Teamster's Union.
I: Has she been in L.A. long, or just recently or what?
S: She moved to L.A. int152, and prior to that she was in Charlotte.
I: Um huh. So after her completing high school, she left the uh, local
area, is that right?
S: She left to go to Charlotte for...to a business college. At that time
if we...if a girl did want to do secretarial work, she had no place to
go unless she did leave.
I: Right. And then she left from there and went to L.A.?
S: Yes, her...she got married while she was in Charlotte, and her husband
was stationed in California. He was in the Marines.
I: So she's remained there ever since?
S: Yeah.
I: Uh, what about your other uh, brothers and sisters?
S: Next to her was my brother Walt. He...when he got out of high school,
he went to Ohio State. He thought at that time he would like to be a
veterinarian, but uh, then at eighteen years old, leaving home was a
hard decision for him to make to stay away from home. So he went
3
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...there a year, and come back home and got married. Or...come...got
married while he was there, and he moved back home, and farmed for five
years, and decided he wanted to go back to college. So he went back to
college..
I: Did he attend school here at Pembroke State University, or where?
S: Yes he did. He attended alPembroke State for three years, and when he
finished there he went to Maryland...Oxford, Maryland right outside of
Washington, and taught for two years. He got a scholarship at North
Carolina University to work on his master's degree.
I: Is that North Carolina State?
S: No, the university at Chapel Hill.
I: O.k.
S: Uh, he went there a year, and uh when he got through school there he
went back to Maryland, and taught for a year, and then he moved back.
In the meantime his wife was going to college while he was in...while he
was in school. And she moved to Chapel Hill with him and went to school
there, and when he went back, she finished that year during the summer,
and they moved to Washington. And he took some courses at George Washington,
and the University of Maryland while he was in Washington. So he moved
back and taught in the local schools for two years, and uh, he finally
got his Master's degree at Appalachian State Teacher's College. At that
time it was a teacher's college. And he went to work then at Sand Hills
Community College, in Southern Pines, for three years. And he moved from
there to Pembroke State University, and he left Pembroke State University
after two years...or three years I think it was, and went to Duke to get
4
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...his doctor's degree. He got his doctor's degree at Duke, and he went
to Appalachian to work for a year. And he went...come back to uh, North
Carolina Central...is where he's uh...presently now. And he's in charge
of Marginal Student's Program at Central.
I: Uh....
S: And I have a sister next to he, Millicent. She's in Tennessee. Her
husband is uh...a coin collector. He's in that line of work, and she's
there. At the same age of her, I have a...my family adopted uh, a girl,
that feels as close as any sister I have. Her husband is employed.at
Pembroke State University in the Biology Department, and she doesn't
teach. Then myself, uh...
I: And what's her name?
S: Anne.
I: Anne?
S: Yeah.
I: And then you were the baby of the family?
S: Yes, I was the youngest of the family.
I: The baby. Did all of your brothers and sisters finish high-school?
S: Yes.
I: And uh, Walt was the only one in the family that received a higher
degree?
S: Yes, all of us went to college, but he is the only one that finished.
I: Finished...right. Uh, as you were a child growing up Mr. Maynor, uh...uh,
before we go into that uh, tell us your wife's name so that we'll have
that on tape.
5
2
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Well, I've been married twice. My first wife was a local girl, that we
went to school together. And uh, while I was farming, when I got out of
school I went to Baltimore for two years and worked in the Cheverolet
Plant on the assembly line, and I didn't particularly like that too
well, and too, my wife was going to college. I moved back and farmed
for four years. And during that time she got her degree, and she uh,
was employed at the college after she got out. She taught a year, and
went back to the college, and now she is Financial Aid Officer there.
But uh, we were married for eight years, and we got a divorce.
I: And you had two sons?
S: Two sons.
I: And what are their names?
S: Jeffery and Wayne.
I: How old are they now?
S: Wayne is six, and Jeffery is eleven.
I: Um huh. Now you're married to whom?
S: Susan Conally, she's from New York...Troy, New York.
I: And uh, she originally came in the area for what purposes?
S: She was a VISTA worker.
I: And did she work...was she employed here by LRDA?
S: She was employed at the agency...or, she worked out of the agency.
I: Out of the agency?
S: Yes.
I: And how long have uh, you and uh, Sue been married?
6
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Nine months.
I: Nine months. O.k. uh, now let's uh, talk a little bit about uh...let's
talk a little bit about the value of education that uh, you uh, was
found in your home as you were a child growing up. Was there importance
put on education? Uh, you said your parents farmed, uh, what else did your
father do?
S: My father was a teacher, and I think he taught about uh, thirty-five,
somewhere along there...thirty-five years in the county school system.
And strangely, he didn't force education on us. I didn't want to be a
teacher, never did. And uh, at that time, when I was in school, if I
finished school, all we could do was teach...be a teacher. And I didn't
particularly want to be a teacher, so I went to college a year, and I...I
quit, because I could see myself getting in that line, and I didn't want
to do that.
I; Was it important in your house that you finish high school?
S; It was expected of me I think. It was never discussed.
I: Uh huh. But you knew that this is what your parents desired?
S: Yes...yes.
I: That you complete high school. Uh, as a child uh, what kind of importance
was placed on you uh, as far as when the report cards came home?
Uh, was it important to you to do your best, or was it something that
your parents payed no attention to? What kind of value was placed there?
S: That's another strange thing, because they didn't really concerned...excuse
me...concern theirselves with grades that I made. That I uh...that I went
at my own pace, and I did or got in school what I wanted to do.
7
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: I imagine because my father was a uh, teacher, he didn't feel like uh,
uh, that he should be pressing, because being a -i.ei-as he knew a
little...I imagine how it went. And through the association with he and
my brother, and what have you when I was in school, I felt like that I
got a ...a fairly good understanding of the school system...just being
around them.
I: Right. Uh...is he retired now, or is he still teaching, or...?
S: Yes, he retired in 1/8 when my mother died.
I: Um huh. So what does he do now as a passtime?
S: He has a farm, and uh...that we always lived on. And he takes care of the
farm. He has cows, and hogs, and that kind of stuff. He probably works
harder now than he ever worked.
I: Is...do you think he's enjoying his retirement?
S: I think so. I think he's enjoying it more than what we thought he would.
Because when my mother died, they were close, and my mother was the one
that always did the...the farming. She looked after the farming end of it,
and my father taught school. And it's a big change for him to uh...to do
farm work now because he very seldom did it because he always had us to
do it.
I: Uh huh...uh huh Uh, what we're trying to capture...capture here is sort
of a lifestyle of the people. Uh, let's talk a little bit about your
generation, and uh, the norms for young people at that time as far as
dating habits go.
S: Well uh, this is probably strange in a lot of respects, because until I
was twelve to fourteen years old, some time during that...that period.
8
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: That I very seldom saw a white person, or a black person. The only time
I would see them is when I'd come to town.
I: Right.
S: And I...I thought until I got twelve or thirteen that the only people
that farmed in the county was Indians.
I: Yes, uh huh.
S: And I don't know how I was led to believe that...that if a white person
farmed, it was a poor poor white person.
I: Right.
S: And why I was put in that position, I don't know. But being that way,
I never had any hangups with white or black because I never talked to
them. And I never was around them, so therefore I don't know whether I
was uh...they...I felt as though that they was a peer to me or not, I
felt as though that-I could...if I had a chance to compete, I could uh,
I could do all right. But from that uh, it kindly...I couldn't say
cramped, because it kindly set the stage on what you could do...or whom
you could date, because there would be very few places you could go. I'm
not saying that you couldn't go...but we never had an opportunity to go
there, and we never had the desire to go there. Because, you no the
beach is only a hundred miles away, which is two hours, and we never
went to the beach with the girlfriend or what have you because that,
we felt like it was...I don't know whether we felt like it was too much
money or what. Because it didn't cost a lot to go, but we just never did
that kind of thing. And uh, the dating would be very uh, remote, what
you would do with...there was very few things you could do. You could go
9
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...to the movie, and that was about it.
I: Where did you sit when you went to the movie?
S: Well, we didn't go to too many walk in movies, we would go to drive-in
movies because uh, at the walk-in movies we would have to go upstairs.
And it's a strange thing now that I kid a lot of whites about uh, how we
would throw things down on them, and that kind of stuff.
I: Yeah. There were three sections in the movie theatre at that time were
there not?
S: Yes.
I: Uh, one for each race. Uh, the whites sat down stairs, and there was a
section upstairs for Indians, and a section for blacks?
S: Yes, uh, at one of the movies down in Lumberton...what I'm saying is in
Lumberton...and a strange thing, Lumberton was the only place...or we'd
go to Lorxanburug which here, is the same distance from us...everybody was
together in Lumberton. Well, the Indians and whites were together the
blacks were still upstairs. But in one movie in Lumberton, they had a
section for white too upstairs. See, the whites would go upstairs. They
had it sectioned off upstairs.
I: I remember. But at t grrenbtig what procedure was followed?
S: Well, there the Indians and whites would go together. They would go
downstairs in the movie together, and the hospital was the same thing.
So therefore most of the Indians went to Lo-renbur-g to the hospital.
Lo-rrenbt-r-g and Hampton.
I: But Lumberton was uh, completely segregated at their hospital?
S: Yes.
10
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Uh, when you uh, were a young boy, and uh, did you get your driver's
license at sixteen?
S: Yeah, I got them on my...I was sixteen on Wednesday, and the driving-
examination was on a Friday, and I got them on Friday.
I: Uh huh...right. Uh, what kind of policies did you have in your home
about using the family car?
S: That was very strict, uh, on my part, because being younger, the
youngest in my family, I was always judged by what the older did.
I: Right.
S: And I didn't get the freedom of the use if the car as much as my
brother or sister did older than myself.
I: Right. Uh, was there just special times, or special nights...uh, how about
during the week...school week, uh did you have the car to come to Pembroke,
or uh, did you just get it on weekends more or less?
S: If I got it, it was on the weekends, and the weekends was very seldom.
I: Uh huh. Uh, well let's talk a little bit about your uh, work here at
LRDA. Uh, you said you were working with the business uh line of uh,
economic development. What have you done uh...thus far? How did you
begin to uh, start working in this kind of work? What were your initial
steps in being organized in your position here?
S: It's not uh, strange I don't imagine Janie, but mkst Indians feel like
they can do what their given an opportunity to do.
I: Right.
S: And my qualifications for doing this is very...was veryvery limited. All
I had prior to that was sale experience and farming. I was manager of a
11
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...recreation center...Lumbee Recreation Center for two years, and I left
that and started selling cars. But uh, when I was hired, the man that
hired me knew that I didn't have the expertise in bookkeeping and what
have you. But he felt like that I had a general understanding of the
people and how I could get involved with people. And that was the main
thing he was after. Because he told me at that time that he would give
me time to sit down to uh...to think. At that time I'd never had a job
to...that I could do any thinking on, that I had to work for my living.
And they didn't have time to think.
I: Right.
S: So when I started here, I went through an orientation period of
probably three months that I read everything that I could get my hands
on, and I talked to quite a few people that was in the business to form
my opinion of what I was going to do. And then I started work. And the
accomplishments have been the successful, or a lot of people label them
as a success, but there's a whole lot of things that I would have liked
to have done that I haven't done. We started in uh, business development
with uh, we felt as though that we had to increase the capital of the
Indian people. And we felt as though we could do it by the Indian
-c-
businesses. So we started trying to auire loans to make their businesses
bigger, to get other people in business, because unless we do have uh,
the money, we can't go very far. Uh, this is one thing that my family
and myself disagrees on. My brother is in the education profession, my
father was also, and they feel like that education is the answer. But
unless...I feel like unless you have the money you can't get the education.
12
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE MAYOR LOCKLEAR
I: Right.
S: So...they...they go hand in hand, and I don't know which is more
important. Some say you have to have the education to get the money,
but I know you have to have the money to get an education. So I...and
being in business I look at it from that side. And the educators going
to look at it from the other. So we uh...worked at getting people loans.
J 4'7s0) 000
We got seven-hurnd-ed-and-fi-fty-tthousand-dol-lars...part from the Small
Business Administration, part from local banks...to go in business in all
the businesses are doing quite well.
I: But this is over a period of how long Jeff?
S: A year.
I: Over a period of a year.
S: Because...I can't say that I wasted...to the average person on the street
that uh...that hadn't saw, or doesn't know that-much about what we are
doing...would say that I wasted four months...I didn't do anything. But
those four months I spent, I feel like was the most important four months
since I've been here. ..was getting myself ready to do a job. And we as
Indian people is very relaxed on planning...doesn't plan the way we
should. But during the...the money that we have gotten....
I: What do you contribute that to Jeff, uh, lack of knowing...knowing how
to plan?
S: Well, this is....
I: Or lack of knowing that a plan is necessary, or just what...?
S: Knowing that a plan is necessary is the problem, I think. And like I
said, when I started, that it was the first job that I've ever had that
13
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...I was paid to think, and not to work with my hands. Most of us,
and most Indians are paid to work with their hands, and not think.
I: Right.
S: So if you...if a man thinks for his living, he's going to plan for
his living. But if he works with his hands, he's not going to plan.
He'll leave the planning to someone else.
I: Uh huh.
S: So we've never been able to plan like we'd like, or should have.
I: Right.
S: Or...and so all'the_:necessary uh...steps for planning, someone always did
it for us. And basically we know humans are lazy to start with. They're
not going to do anymore than they have to.
I: So there's a lack of experience...experiences in planning...uh, somewhere
along the line we have to learn how to plan don't we?
S: Yes...yes, and this is what we're trying to work on with uh, attitudes
towards that...the importance of panning. You just can't tell a man that
you're going to plan because in all the books that is wrote about
business development, uh, economic development, community development,
never start with the small necessary steps of planning, and getting the
peoples attitude right for what they're going to do.
I: Right. So uh, you said you had uh, uh, what was the figure you used, uh
loans?
S: It's between...about seven-ttndr-enard-dfifty-do-llars that we have gotten
in loans.
I: How-about some of the type businesses that are...have been funded uh,
14
C*'`
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: ...through these loans?
S: Well, we have....
I: Are they new businesses or funds from...which went into established
businesses?
S: Well let me go down some of the line for you.
I: O.k.
S: And we can pick out some is, and some not. We got a loan for a rest-
aurant...was a sizeable loan. But the man was in the restaurant bus-
iness before, but he bought a restaurant on 95. / / --c j
I: Um huh.
S: So uh...that one is going good. Next we got a loan for a man to go in
the dental ceramic business... make casts for teeth. He was doing the
business in a small way, but he didn't have the capital he needed to
uh, get the work and what have you. So we got that, and he's doing
a// a0right in that one.
I: Is that locally?
S: Yes, that's in Lumberton. We got a man a loan to go in the used car
business. He'd been in the business fifteen years in California, and
like all Indians, they like to come home.
I: Right.
S: So he wanted to come back, and we got him a loan to go in business...in
the used car business, and he's doing quite well. So that's a new
business that's created.
I: Right.
S: Uh, we got a loan for a machine shop. It's really the only minority
15
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: machine shop in the state of North Carolina.
I: Uh huh.
S: And out of all the loans we got, he's probably done the best job. Because
the man uh, is only twenty-three years old...twenty-three or
twenty-four years old. He's young enough that...that we can work with.
I; Right.
S: So in working with him we have been able to get contracts at Western
Electric, Converse Railroad Company, R.J. Reynolds, Union Carbide, and
most of his work is done for large industries. And very few of it...a
little bit of it's done locally. Like an old blacksmith shop type-operation
he doesn't have. He's got a highly technical type operation.
I: Has the LRDA played a role in helping him acquire contracts?
S: Yes. Yes, this is...this is what I was saying earlier, that uh, he is
at the age that he can...he will accept our help. But some of the other
ones like uh...a garage that we built...it's very hard because the man's
been in the garage business twenty years. He knows a lot of people that
he does work with. And it's hard for me to change that man...to bring any
new ideas to him, because he's got his ideas set.
I: Uh huh.
S: Another one is uh....
I: The machinist, where did he learn his trade?
S: His father lived in Greensborugh for quite a few years, and he finished
high school in Greensboroqdeg. And he learned his...the trade in high
school. And this is something that has upset me here, and uh...the way
that things go that...but he's learned a trade that he's doing quite well
at.
16
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Right. He's really profiting.
S: And uh, it's not regular, he...they wasn't preparing the boy to go to
college.
I: Right.
S: But here, in our educational system, they're preparing everybody to go
to college.
I: Right.
S: And which I don't feel like is right.
I: Right.
S: He has uh, four people, and he's trying to uh, get two experienced
machinists now which would give him six people. We have another one
that uh...that's a cut and sew operation, a garment manufacture that...
This gentleman worked down at a cut and sew operation, and he decided
he would like to go. in business for himself. So we got him a loan, and
he's in business for himself...employing sixty-five people...maybe seventy
now. And he's...he's doing all right in that line. And we have uh, another
restaurant, and uh, it's doing about the same. And a garage, a super
market type thing, and along that line, a plumbing supply business.
I: Uh, what have you done Mr. Maynor to let Indian people know that you are
here, and know the system, and apply for loans to uh...go into business?
S: Well, Janie this is...to the...to the person that's not in business, or
the person that's not familiar with our organization...I'd probably say
it's nothing. But the most important thing to me...that we formed a
Lumbee Indian business organization....that we have forty-five members.
And these members are from all over the county, in all different kinds
17
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...of businesses, from a servic7station to a carpenter, a painter, uh,
and everything. But we meet twice a month.
I: How long has this been organized?
S: Uh, this was organized in July of last year. Well, in July it will be a
year. But this is...I feel like it's the greatest achievement we made.
And even-h.ndred- rthotand-del-lars is fine, but if I leave tomorrow, who's
going to help the people get the seehde--hoad-l-?
I: Right.
S: But the business organization I feel like is setting the attitudes, and
the trends...people are going to take care of their needs theirselves.
And I feel like this should be my role at LRDA. Preparing somebody to do
the things for theirselves, and not...not expect me to do them.
I: Right...right.
S: Because I'd like to go into business some time.
I: Um huh...right. Tell me a little bit about your Lumbee business and what
type of uh...you say you have forty-five...uh, what criteria is the basis
for membership?
S: To be a...a Lumbee Indian, and own or operate a business.
I: Uh, has this uh idea been received uh, like you would like for it:to have
been received? Or have Indian business men participated to the extent that
you would like to see them participate?
S: Well, I don't think...being raised in America, and the way America is
set up to get as much as you can...it's not been as...as good as I'd like
it to be. But it surprised quite a few people that we have done it.
I: Right.
18
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Quite a few people thought that you could never get the business people
together for anything.
I: Right.
S: Because they was always competing against each other. But uh, we are...are
working that out, and uh, our meetings are...we have good attendance at
our meetings. And we feel like that it's doing quite well. We have the
Christmas Parade in Pembroke, in uh, December was the first we've had.
The businessmen got together and bought some gifts that they give away.
I: Um huh.
S: We sponsored a float for Miss Lumbee down at uh, the Azalea Festival in
wilmington, which cost them tiee-ht-mdaed-4lrs...was a lot of money
for the business man that's not involved, or never did anything of that
kind.
I: Right.
S: And we feel like it's doing quite well. They make sure that uh...the
Lumbee, not the uh...The Carolina Indian Voice has enough of advertisements.
We made it clear to Bruce if he ver runs into a advertising problem, let
us know.
I: Uh huh. So they're not only uh, organized to help themselves, but they're
organized also for the purpose of uh, helping the community?
S: Yes, we feel like that uh...to be a success in business you have to give
something back to the community.
I: Right.
S: And not particularly look after yourself. It is a selfish motive that
they are doing, but they realize that they have to do these things in
order to get what they want.
19
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Uh huh.
S: And July te- fuurm of each year we select the Lumbee Indian business-
man of the year. This is how the organization got formed, and it was
formed for that reason. So we're working on that now.
I: Who has been the recipitant of that re...award?
S: Uh, Mr. Ward Clarke was the first. He was...I think he has made the...
the most drive in business of any Indian we have. I think he's the first
Indian millionaire we have, and he did all this in the past uh...six or
seven years. Because six years, he had some bubble gum machines and
taught school. That was his business. And he started in the house
business, and uh built a grocery store, a furniture store, laundrymat,
and what have you, and he did quite well.
I: And he has uh...a shopping center does he not?
S: Yes, Lumbee shopping Center.
I: I think they're...he is uh, sponsoring an anniversary celebration this
weekend for his shopping center is he not?
S: Yes he is. That's part of the uh, things that we have put together
through the Lumbee Indian Businessan Organization...which, it gives uh,
the men a chance to get together and talk about things. We have had uh,
three dinners in different communities for uh, let's say uh, Ward Clarke
for Lumbee Shopping:Center, Russel Oxendine with Lumbee Campers. They've
gone together in a community and given a free barbque in the community to
get the people to know them, because we feel like we have to do some type
of advertising.
20
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Uh huh. Uh, what uh...what type of programs do you have at your meetings?
What uh...have you conducted seminars...have you given these men public
training, or what are some of the type of things you've done to asist
other than just...other than acquiring loans?
S: Well now, this is uh, one thing that has worked out well with the
gentleman that owns the machine shop. Like I said earlier, he's not too
old to try to learn. So the seminars that we have conducted, which we
probably...we conduct...try to conduct one every three months, of some
nature. He always attends. If we have a seminar that's not here...it's
a state-wide seminar, he usually goes to these state-wide seminars to
meet uh, industrial people to look for work. So uh, we got together,
and five months ago I think it was, and come up with an idea of having
a state-wide minority trade fair. It was in Henderson, and I couldn't
operate it because we didn't have the money.
I: Right.
S: And another reason, I wasn't black. And to have a state-wide minority
trade fair, you have to involve the blacks fairly heavy. So we got a
man to do it in Raleigh. And he...the trade fair went quite well. And
this is some of the things, and uh...that we are doing for the business
men. But we have a speaker the first Thursday night in each month, a
guest speaker. We've had the head of the Commerce and Industry Department,
the uh...and different people to come in and speak on different phases of
businesses.
I: Uh, what type of seminars have you sponsored locally?
S: Well we have sponsored seminars on uh, records and book keeping, sales
21
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...and promotion, crime prevention, and along that line.
I: uh, where do you get assistance for...for these seminars? Have you had
any working relationship with the local university?
S: Well strangely Janie, uh...or to my...to my pleasant surprise, everything
I've asked the Pembroke State University to do, they've always helped
me do it. And I know a lot of times they've turned people down, or they
said they have...I don't know. But I've never had any problem. Whatever
I want from the university...l usually get it. We had one not long ago,
that we used their cafeteria, we use their buildings, and the...the
cafeteria prepared the meal for us, and what have you. But uh, too, I
never go to the university and ask them for anything, that I don't feel
like they might gain something from it too.
I: Right.
S: Because I felt like, and I explained to them, that if we get the uh,
business people on the university campus, chances are they would be
more receptical to uh, donations and what have you to the college.
I: Right.
S: And which is true, and...and uh, they participate in the college a whole
lot more, and the college does that. And uh, I got a call last week from
the head of the business department of the college, and he's trying to
set up something similar to this for next uh...for the following year,
I: Uh huh.
S: And I'm running a small survey now to all these businesses...whether they
are a member of the business organization or not, to see what type of
seminars they would like to be in. And we're going to conduct that in
22
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...September. We're going to start it in September.
I: What are some of the categories that you're asking?
S: Here is a list here.
I:. Could you read it please?
S: Sales promotion and advertising, personnel management, planning to...
planning for a small business, financial control, fundamental book-
keeping in p small business tax and customer service a small business,
and financing...frachise and marketing.
A
I: Um huh. Uh, have you received technical assistance from uh...university
personnel?
S: Yes, when I uh, first had the idea of conducting a seminar.-..went up to
the university and talked with Mr. Tommy Ammons. And he thought it was a
good idea, and he conducted the first seminar for us...or he conducted
two for us.
I: This is uh...one definite way that the university can be a asset to the
community. By uh...uh, by offering uh...their assistance uh, in any way
that may be needed in the community. Uh, I'd like to uh, see more of this
done, and I think there is a definite situation where we don't always ask
uh, for their service.
S: I think that's our...our big problem, uh Janie, because a lot of times we
accuse the university for not getting involved with the community, but
the community don't get involved with the university. And it's probably,
and it's one of those things that uh, if I was there I'd probably feel
the same way. That if you always expect me to do something, but what do
you do?
23
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Right.
S: And I fell like it's got to be a two-way thing. The university can only
be what we make it be to us.
I: Right. Uh...in uh, Lumbee BusinessAan's Association, uh, are most of the
business men...uh, what kind of educational backgrounds do the majority
of those who are members have?
S: Well most of them...it's...I would say half of them is uh high school
graduates. We have some college graduates, and some that...that's not.
I: Uh huh. Uh, most of them then uh, got into the business, and have been
successful then, would you say, through their own initiative?
S: Yes, and this is why it's hard to get them involved in anything that
they don't quite understand.
I: Right.
S: The...the uh, man out at the machine shop is...I think he lacks about
uh, twelve hours finishing at the university, and he's young and what
have you. But some of the old ones had to make it on their own, and no
help.
I: The business men.
S: It's hard to...it's hard to get those people. Because they have formed
their ideas of how things have to be, and how they should be, and you're
just not going to change them. But we are trying to work on attitudes,
and it's began to change a little bit.
I: Uh, what future plans do you have uh, for the uh, Lumbee Business MAn's
Association? What would you like to see it grow into?
S: Well we would like to see it grow into...you might say a county-wide, or
24
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...an Indian chamber of commerce type thing that they would have their
own office, they would uh, they would help each other in business
practices for uh, credit reasons and what have you...for customer
service.
I: Uh, economically uh, what future businesses do you see there need to be,
or what future uh, type of businesses does the community as a whole uh,
do you see a need for?
S: Well, I feel like the community can support just about any kind of
business a man wants to go in. Because we don't have it. There's very
few businesses here. What we have is in Lumberton, but uh, Indian owned
businesses there's very few, and I feel like whatever they would like
to go in...it doesn't...uh, we...we say we have enough of uh, gas
stations, and which that's true everywhere. But uh, one gas station
that does...that would go in business now, would give better service,
a better looking gas station...he would make it.
I: Uh huh.
S: And this is what we're trying to promote is uh, Indian business men...to
compete. And not...and not expect the Indians to trade with them just
because they're Indians, or because they don't like uh, a white man, that
they're going to trade with the Indians. We don't want uh...we're trying
to portray, and trying to get ourselves to a point that we feel like that
they would trade with us because we give the best service. Because they
can buy it from us better, and get better service from us, and that's why
we want their business...not because I'm an Indian. Because we feel like
that if we uh, set ourselves up that you should trade with me because I'm
Indian...that's defeating the purpose that we're trying to work towards.
25
SUBJECT: JEFFERY NAYNOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Uh huh.
S: But a lot of times that just don't work. We still get that, that he
should trade with me, that I'm an Indian.
I: Right.
S: I may be wrong, but we're trying to get out of that.
I: Uh huh. You said you were sending out a list uh, a mailing list, uh
asking...a questionnaire about this seminar. How many names do you have
on the mailing list? Uh, can you give me some idea of how many Indian
business men uh, you think there are or something? An approximate idea.
S: One of the...the best things we did from that side, that come out of the
business organization, I doesn't have a co...I don't have a copy of it
here, but we put together an Indian business brochure or booklet, directory,
that has all the Indian businesses in it. we...I...we don't have them all,
but we have quite a few.
I: That's good.
S: And we have about three hundred and sixty that's in the county. That's uh,
including the sheet rock hangers, the painters, the contract ------ ,
along that line.
I: Any type business?
S: Yeah.
I: Uh huh. Uh...do uh,then you would say that uh, Ward Clarke has the uh,
largest uh, business enterprise uh, amongst the Indian businesses?
S: Yes, he uh, his gro...
END SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE
26
LUM 82 AB
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
DATE: JUNE 8, 1973
TAPE: ONE
SIDE: TWO
S: ...is larger than any other in the county.
I: Then what uh, enterprise or business do you feel would come next in line
to him ?
S: I think Brooks Enterprises is...probably would come next.
I: And Brooks Enterprise is a uh, an enterprise made up of uh, several
brothers is it not?
S: Yes, uh...we have our doctor, and our only Indian doctor that's working
here...we have some more but they're not working here...is doctor...
I: A medical doctor.
S: Is a medical doctor, is Doctor Brooks. His brother runs the...is a
pharmicist at Pembroke uh...
I: Drug...
S: Drug Center. Paul Brooks is a contractor, he does...he runs the business.
And Jimmy Brooks is another brother that works with them. So the four of
them is in the building business together.
I: Uh huh. Uh- then uh...what do you feel, Jeff, is uh, the main hinderance
of getting the other three hundred and some uh, men uh, Lumbee Indian men
who are in business to become actively involved in the Lumbee Business Men?
S: Well this will...this will probably shock you Janie, but I think the
church is the thing that has kept the others from doing it because we have
been trained, brought up, believe...that we're.going to...we're going to
27
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...be all right. I mean we can...we can be passive as we would like.
We don't have to push. We don't have to...to really try to make a
dollar, because in the end, we're going to be all right.
I: Um huh.
S: And uh, this has been our training throughout our whole time, and
therefore, the...the people don't have the initiative, the desire to
make a dollar that you have to have in business.
I: Um huh.
S: They're...they're in business...if they-;make uh, tner-trosa1nd-dl-lars
a year...that's fine, that's more than anybody else that makes around
them. So why should they try to make more you know. And we went
through a thing, and even when I was in school, that I didn't try to
be the best student in school because uh, they had a thing then that
I thought I was somebody.
I: Um huh.
S: And I didn't want to be somebody, I wanted to be part of the group.
I: Um huh.
S: And this is...that's why I think we're running into a problem with
them, that uh, the people don't try to make it...it's not because they
can't...they don't try to make it because they have been taught that
they're going to be all right regardless of whether they make it or
not.
I: Um huh. And as long as they're making ends meet, they really see,
have no desire to go any farhter.
28
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: As long as they can make ends meet, they don't worry about how much
they're going to have for next year, they don't worry/biout how much
they save for retirement, because an Indian very)very seldom retires.
I: Um huh.
S: Because up until ten years ago, I didn't know an Indian retired...not
until some of them started retiring from teaching school.
I: Um huh...right....uh, but that's true too. Uh, then uh...would you
say that we Lumbee Indian people are a very very religious sect of
people?
S: Yes, I think so. Moreso...more than any...excuse me...more than any
group I have ever saw.
I: Um huh.
S: And too it may be their...their way of escaping the...the hard work,
the hard knocks it takes to be a successful business person. It's not
easy, and if they feel like that they...and they can convince their-
self that they're going to be all right whether they do it or not,
sure, they won't do it.
I: Um huh.
S: They will take their time to fish and hunt and what have you.
I: Uh, what was your initial membership, uh, is the organization
growing?
S: Yes, the organization is growing. Uh, not by leaps and bounds...we
haven't pushed yet for membership because we didn't want to...so
many times in the past organizations has started...the Indians have
started organizations, and they'll go for four or five months, and
29
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...they're dead. They might go for a year, and they'll completely
peter out. So we were trying to start an organization...it took us
from uh...we started getting together in July, and it was October
before we selected officers of the organization. And uh, November
we installed the officers in their positions, and we brought the
organization along slow to uh...for everyone to understand what was
going on. Yet it was uh...we did run into problems because uh...it
would have been easier for us to meet one night, form the organization,
the next night, we're on the road.
I: Uh huh.
S: But you get people involved then that might not be involved in...in
six months. They might lose interest. But the way we feel like we
brought it along...the people that we have now is going to be involved
you know, until. Because when we formed the steering committee to
start work in setting up the organization, we had people on the
steering committee that...that don't attend the meetings now.
I: Um huh.
S: It's not that they got...uh...had a disagreement with the organization,
they just lost interest.
I: Right...right.
S: And that's what we were trying to....
I: So it is an organization that you have to keep going in order to uh,
keep the interest there?
S: Yeah, we try to have something every two months, some outside
activity of some nature.
30
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M: LOCKLEAR
I: Uh, who is the...who are some of the officers in the uh business
men's organization?
S: Well being...from working here and what have you, I was elected
president of the organization, which is...I don't feel like it's a
good thing. But I felt like that probably I should do it in order
to get the organization to moving.
I: Right.
S: The vice-president of the organization, Mr. Raymond Lowery, that
operates the machine shop...he's doing a real good job. Uh, a
teacher, a business man, is the secretary, James B. Locklear...that
owns Tourist Oil Company. We have a secretary...well, he's secretary,
the treasurer is Curtis Puriss...is a cashier at Lumbee Bank. The uh,
Program Director is Bruce Sweat, he's an insurance salesman, and
C
operates a service station...Bruce's American. Uh, J.P. Thomas is
the publicity director, he is uh...operates Stern Life Insurance
Company in Pembroke. Those are the officers.
I: Uh...then do you...is this uh, organization only for men...do you
have any women participate?
S: We would like to have uh women in the organization. We sent out
letters and what have you, but it's been hard to...to get women
involved. The women have an organization called The Professional
Women's Organization, so that covers that.
I: Right...uh huh.
S: I think the main thing we're working with though Janie, is the
attitude.
31
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M: LOCKLEAR
I: Right.
S: Changing the attitude towards business, and if it can be changed by
the Professional Women's Organization, that's fine. If we change the
attitude in ours, that's the main thing we're after.
I: Really though, there's not...you don't have too many uh, Indian
women who are in business for themselves...do you?
S: The Indian women that's in business is uh...operates beauty shops.
I: Beauty shops, and a few fabric shops.
S: That's...that's the extent of it.
I: Um huh. Uh, what do you contribute this to, do you think it's
tradition of our people to believe that the woman's place is in the
home...uh, is this uh...do you think this is characteristic of Indian
people?
S: Well I know it...it was that way#-and-.uh...my family for a long time.
I: Um huh.
S: But I think the...the big thing that controls that line of thought,
is that Indian people is always on the buying side of the counter.
They're never behind the counter. And women naturally looks to their
husbands, and if their husbands not in business. If we don't have
that many uh, big Indian businesses, we're not going to have any
women's business.
I: Right.
S: Because the women is not going to take the lead in business. But it's
changing, and in the next five years I think there'll be quite a
few changes in that line.
32
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Um huh.
S: Because I think we'll have our...our women in the insurance business,
have their own rea/estate and insurance business, and that kind of
thing.
I: Uh, what type of...let's get back to...uh, I asked a question before,
and you didn't give me any really competent answers...what types of
businesses do you feel that would be necessary to upgrade the
economic level of this community? Do you think we need more uh,
industrial plants...uh, do you think we need an Indian owned uh,
some type of manufacturing...uh, what type of businesses...do you
think we need credit unions...uh, what type of...?
S: Well, the organization...the business man's organization is in the
process of starting a Pembroke Finance Compamy.
I: All right.
S: And uh...we think that's a need. We don't feel like it's morally right
because of the interest rates that they charge, uh, but when the
Indian people or black people will go down to Lumberton, and they
have eight small loan companies there...small finance companies,
and they borrow money from them. Uh, we feel like we should get our
share. Not because we think it's right...because most of us that's
in the uh...in it doesn't agree with it, but if they're going to
spend their money, we feel like that we should get the money. And if
we can get it, it's our duty to get it. But uh, the industries that
that I would be in favor of, is uh, local owned businesses...not
big, they start their own business. I'm not totally in favor of
33
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...bringing in big industry to the uh...the community. Because if
you bring in big uh Industry, you bring in uh...large department
stores to follow.
I: Uh huh.
S: So they get paid on Friday, and on Monday the money is going back
north again.
I: Right...right.
S: And what we're trying to do is come up with some solution to uh...to
keep the money in the community.
I: Uh huh.
S: Through selling like the uh...the...the machine company. They bring
money in, and very little leaves out. The uh cut and sew operation,
or the garment manufactury...they bring money in, and very little
leaves. But this is what uh...this is the only way that I can see
that we can upgrade our uh...our community. The businesses that we
need is just about any kind you can think of, because we need grocery
stores, and we need fine...we need a better uh...clothing store, and
what have you. We can use bakeries, uh...the-whole'...the whole thing.
I: Um huh...right. Uh...so how far in the stage have you gone to organ-
izing uh, some type of a credit association?
S: Well, the way we started this, we have twenty-five men that's
paying wo-thotsd-1l-ars apiece to get it started. And uh, we
have our charter drawn up, and we hope to start it the first of
July.
I: Very good. Uh...do you find that Indian people are uh, dubious about
34
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: ...going into business? In the beginning do you think they have a lack
of self-confidence?
S: I think that's very very true because uh, you always have a lack of
self-confidence when you're doing something you know nothing about.
I said earliermy sister went to Charlotte because she wanted to be
secretary, you couldn't be one here. And that was uh...umm, I'm
getting older than I thought...that was about twenty years ago. But
if we couldn't have a...uh...uh...a lady to be a secretary twenty
years ago...of course, we could never own a...a business. And it's
a period of time you have to go through with. You know you have to
be a secretary before you can be a manager, and you have to be a
manager before you can own the business.
I: Right.
S: And that's about the state we're getting in now, that we have a few
key managers in different positions, and in the next five or six
years I think that we will begin to own big businesses. I think
Indians will get in big business.
I: Are there uh money...is there money readily available for minority
uh, people, or Indian people who want to venture out into the business
world? Uh, say a person has an idea or a concept that he feels like,
feels like would be a growing business in this community...what does
he do once he makes the decision to pursue that?
S: Well, if he has a good idea, he feels like it's good, and he comes
in and I talk to him...I talk to uh, the small administration qt//
Charlotte to get their feeling on it, to get their experience on
35
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: that type of business. If they think it's good, we start trying to
put together uh, a loan package for him. Because....
I: And what goes into that?
S: This is uh, a projected income statement that he feels like he would
make. Uh, a financial statement on himself that he's going to
inject in the-business. How much thistbusiness is,going-tocost to
go into. The employees that he would have in the business, and that
line of thought. But uh, too many times we have these good ideas, or
we feel like they're good. We go to a bank to borrow money, and that's
all we have is an idea. We doesn't have our projected...our projections
wrote down. We just have them in our head, and the banker just don't
go along with that stuff.
I: Right...right.
S: So therefore we get uh, frustrated and we don't try anymore.
I: What percentage of uh...the necessary amount to establish a business
can be borrowed through S.B.A.?
S: Uh, ejglr f e per cent.
I: Eightry-f ve? And the individual must come up with the other f-iteen?
S: F4A-en. That can be in...in property or any type of uh...assets that
he has.
I: Have you had many people to apply for S.B.A. loans who have been
denied?
S: The...very very few, because I talk to the person, and uh, a lot of
times when they come in with their good ideas, and I talk to the -
person, and they finally realize that they are not sure of the idea
36
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...that they're talking about.
I: Um huh.
S: A lot of times I've completed loan applications for people...they
look over them, and they lose interest in them. They don't go back.
And if a man is not interested in going in business...I don't feel
like it's my duty to try to force him to do it. Because if he's
not sold on it, and I'd force him to go in it, he's not going to be
a success. So he has a little bit that he has to do in that line. I
think I've only had uh, one application that I have submitted that
was turned down, and the reason it was turned down was because
uh, S.B.A...Small Business Administration thought it would uh,
was uh, an investment venture more than a business venture.
I: Um huh.
S: So really I can't say that...I've gotten all the help that Icould
ask for from the Small Business Administration.
I: Does a person have to have land at that particular time on which to
build his business on?
S: No, he doesn't.
I: Or will they fund him money to acquire property?
S: This is a strange thing with the Small Business Administration. Say
that I was operating a business, and doing a good business in
operating, and I decided that I wanted to buy the business. They
wouldn't loan me the money to buy the business...buy the building.
They would loan me the money to increase my stock to do other little
things to help my business. They loan money for the business...not
37
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...to the individual.
I: Um huh.
S: But now if I had the idea...the same idea, right across the street,
and didn't have the building, I could buy the building here and go
into business...I could borrow money to buy the building, and go in
business. But after I get set up in the building, I can't buy the
building...or they won't loan me the money to buy the building.
I: Right.
S: Because then they feel like it's not helping the business...they're
helping me, and that's what happened on the loan that was turned down.
I: Um huh.
S: That the man was in the business, he was doing good in the business,
and he wanted to buy the business because he was going to save on
uh, rent. Uh, there was an office side of it that he could rent, and
he could make some money on it you know. But they wouldn't go along
with that. Because they said if he's doing that well, he can borrow
money from the bank, and they're not competing with the banks.
I: Then is it...is it better for a minority person who wants to go
into business to stick a loan through S.B.A. or through a...like a
bank?
S: Well, the...the big saving like I said earlier was S.B.A. You can
go in business with fifteen per cent...a minority can. If he wants
to borrow a hd -hdhausan D-1uars he has to have fiifteem-thousand,
but if he's uh...has to go through the bank, he has to have a third,
or...or more. He would have to have t irtytousand-f--thir-ty-f-ive...
38
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ... fortythusarrid- lars in order to borrow a hundrtedthousand
dollars.
I: Right.
S: So that's why you would go through S.B.A. You can get started for
less money invested.
I: How do they have to pay this back?
S: Monthly payments. They go through basically the same uh...same uh,
screening that a bank does.
I: Um huh.
S: It doesn't have to be quite as strong of a reference and what have
you as the bank, but you have to be in fairly good shape credit-wise
in order to borrow money.
I: I noticed on the wall you have a uh. North Carolina Governor's Award
Program for Pembroke. Uh, what was your role in that Jeff, and
exactly what is that?
S: That was a big lesson to be gained when I got started in that. Uh,
I was...like I said, when I was hired here, I was supposed to be
looking for industry and this kind of thing. But the people that
hired me a lot of aeeas-eions didn't know what my full responsibility
was, and what I could do...what a man could do.
I: Um huh.
S: So...I got involved with the Governor's Award Program to win for
Pembroke because uh, the State of North Carolina has a program
the Governor's Award Program that they
have for small towns. I think there's about sixty of them in North
39
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...Carolina now that has uh, participated and won the Governor's
Award Program. But if an industry is coming to uh...interested in
locating in North Carolina they show them these towns first.
I: Um huh.
S: But I met with the town board, as far as talking about attitudes,
I met with the town board, and talked to them about it, and they
thought it was a good idea, that they guessed go ahead with it.
So I...I did everything, uh, myself...got the Kiwanis, got the uh,
Lions, and what have you involved in the town clean-up, uh, improve-
ment and everything. But then when we had the banquet, uh...the, the
mayor and one town commissioner come. So I failed in getting them
involved in the Governor's Award Program. I had the award, but I
didn't get the people involved in it that should.have been.
I: Right.
S: And this is the whole thing about attitude. Now if I'd a went back,
and I...and had kept on them...they would have saw the need that we
doesn't have the sewer system that we have, or we doesn't have the
water. And now when the town board meet they're going to t(lak about
a...a new police car, or...or something of that nature.
I: Uh, what were some of the uh requirements for uh, receiving the
award?
S: You have to have four industrial sites for industry...that we have.
It's located on the rail, which you know that Pembroke is a
crossroads for rail.
I: Right.
40
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: East and west...north and south, uh, you have to conduct a clean-up
campaign to beautify the town. You have to present uh...an audit...an
audit of the town, the...the population, the water system, the sewer
system, the uh...the government set up, your tax rate. You have to
get all the information you possibly can about a town...submit. And
then uh...after you do your clean-up you get these other things...
this is a book here...that we had to submit to uh...to win the
Governor's Award Program. This is a little...what I'm talking about
here, and you can see what...But we had to do the little things...
prepare it in a booklet like this, submit it to the...the state.
The state judges it, and if we win we get a letter. This one come
from Bob Scott...that we did win the Governor's Award Program. And
those are the things that you did. I think it's a good program. I
think it uh...gets people involved in their community...know more
about the community, because a lot of times a man can come in, that
worked with the state, and know more about Pembroke than I know.
I: And is...is this particular information here on file inThe state
for uh, interested uh, industry to see what they...uh...come into
North Carolina?
S: Yes. Yes it is.
I: Um huh...uh, then uh...Jeff uh...what is the main hinderance to uh,
recruiting uh, businesses to uh leaave-Pembroke...uh, industry to the
Pembroke area?
41
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR.
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M.LOCKLEAR
S: Uh...the attitudes of the uh...people in powers that we have, or
that holds position. With the uh...uh, the average man on the street,
doesn't quite understand what it takes for industry, and how much industry
can mean to a community. Say if we move a plant here...that we have a
plant here that's employing-, a hundred people...that would mean that we
need of course a hundred houses. We would uh, increase our school
system by about fifty people, which would mean two extra teachers,
and the whole thing down the line. And the man that's running his...his
gas station on the corner...it means that he's going to have uh...
probably twenty-five tanks of gas more a week, and that kind of stuff.
And it's hard for us to get to them to see how...how they're going to
benefit from it.
I: Um huh.
S: See if...if they're...and that's what we will probably move in in the
business organization sooner or later. If they will uh make a pledge
of Q-4kttded-rlas. a year to the organization to do this type of work,
because they see where they can make it tenfolds in a years time.
I: Right...uh huh. Uh, what about uh...as.it is now as far as water and
sewer down in uh...towards Pembroke area? Is there a problem there?
S: Our sewer facility was built in '70. And uh, they're running just about
at uh, the peak now...the peak capacity. Our water system is bui--t on a
loop system, which uh, you get pressure all the way around it, water
pressure. And uh...we doesn't have the water pressure at the plant sites
42
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER; JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: that we have, that would be uh...that we could have uh, industry in. So we
have to do something about the water and sewer.
I: Both of them...um huh.
S: And you know how the townspeople are, you talk...start talking about
increasing that, and you have to increase their tax to do it...the sewer
system, and they're going to start kicking about it.
I: Right.
S: Which I can understand why.
I: Yeah. Uh, what kind of a working relationship then have you had with the uh,
Pembroke uh, administration...uh, town council and so forth?
S: Very)very little, because we get back to planning again, that we have talked
about in Indians, and they hadn't really planned, or they don't really think
that far ahead. I gue...I better not say think...they haven't planned for
advanced uh...growth of the town. They try to satisfy the needs now.
I: Um huh.
S:, And that's as far as they go.
I: Then your main work...line of work here has been working on organizing the
Lumbee Businessm3an's Association, uh assisting people uh, with gaining S.B.A.
and uh, private loans...uh have you gone into any other uh, branches of uh,
work here, or has this been your main concentration?
S: No, I...I've been working with the business, whatever the business does by
helping secure contracts, uh, Federal contracts, State contracts.
I: Have you had very good response in this line ?
43
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Yes, uh...we have. It's not...it's not the state, and it's not the...the
uh, the governments fault uh, that we haven't gotten them. It's the peoples
hasn't come around to accept them because they're not supposed to be doing
that type...kind of work. It's all right...they feel like it's all right
for them to sub-contract it from a contractor that does it, but they have
never been in a position to do the contracting theirselves, and it's hard to
move them to the point. In other words, telling them that...yeah, you can
...you can be the contractor.
I: Right.
S: And not a sub-contractor.
I: Um huh.
S: But that's...that's coming about...that takes time, and it's uh...then too
we're working on the attitudes of the people'towards business.
I: So all during our conversation we keep coming back to the word attitudes,
and this seems to be the main holdback then in the uh...whole progress of uh,
our Lumbee Indian businesses...is being able to form the attitudes to uh,
go beyond, and to be prosperous. Uh...
S: I think that's the attitude of the Indian people. If a...I think it's the...
the problem is the attitude of the Indian people. Right...nothing is going to
defeat him.
I: Um huh.
S: But if he doesn't have the right attitude, anything can do it. This is
whether it's in school or what. And we have dropped, or we have never uh,
put much emphasis on...on planning, which if you plan, you have to be
44
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M: LOCKLEAR
S: ...planning your attitudes too. That's changing your attitude if you could.
So I think...and then going back to the church, like I said earlier...the
church has hampered the attitudes that we have had.
I: What attitudes did your family have towards the churches you were a member of?
S: My uh father was very very religious. My mother also. My father did all right
I suppose, as well as most, or probably better than the average. But he's
never placed emphasis on making money. Never has. He's...he's tight...he's
stingy...very conservative. But for him to uh...
I: Uh...
S: The attitudes through urch...like I said, my father has never been strong
to make money, as far as investments...he's never invested. The money that he
got was through work.
I: But don't you...don't you feel like the Indian person then is afraid of 1
investing money...scared he's going to lose it?
S: True. Now the Indian...
I: Once you got it you better hold on to it?
S: We have been taught that. We have always been taught to saving for a rainy
day. You know, like...like I said earlier, that we're going to make it you
know.
I: Right.
S: So why should we try to make a whole lot. We work everyday, we save a little
bit of what we...we worked for, and that's th- way we make it. We don't take
what we save for investments.
I: Even...even when the uh...Lumbee Bank was organized then uh, they tried to sell
stock, they had difficulties because Indian people were afraid to invest money.
45
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: True...true. And this is the thing, but if we get back...if we can just
change the attitudes of people. To get in a...ina position that uh,
attitude of the Indian people are to make money.
I: But don't you feel though uh, the fear of investing comes from not having
known what investing can do?
S: I think so.
I: Never having done it before this?
S: True...well, true, but uh, our preacher every Sunday morning tells us that
that's wrong.
I: Uh huh.
S: That's wrong to have uh...money.
I: Uh huh.
S: Money is the root of all evil.
I: Right, that's true.
S: So we don't...we don't go for that kind of stuff because we want to be right,
we want to make it one day.
I: Uh huh...uh huh...that's true.
S: That's how we are.
I: That's really true. Uh...that uh, you know as far as uh, having stock...or,
this is something that's really foreign to our people. And I think this is
one reason the uh...Lumbee Bank people had uh, problems of selling their stock,
because stock is a word that's foreign, other than uh, a movie that they might
have had at the uh, S.B.A. Uh...
S: Well, the Indian people that's tried it in the past .uh, self-originated ideas,
and they sold stock for it. Most of them lost. Just about every time, they lost
46
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: And they are kind of scared of that.
I: Uh huh. Even your Lumbee paper that uh...went for a few years...well,
everybody goes back to that. And uh, well people invested money, and uh, they
didn't make it you know. Because of lack of uh...poor management. In fact they
had a white man uh, managing the paper. Uh, you know, one bad experience like
this preached all over the community don't you think?
S: I...I'm quite sure that that had a big part to play in it, because we
place more value...Indian people does...place more value on their homes than
whites. Now you're not going to get an Indian person, if he owns his house,
if he owns his home...to mortgage his house to get money to go into business.
He's not going to do it.
I: Um huh.
S: Because that's the only thing he has. Now the reason of that, a white man
can do it in Lumberton, and lose his house...he can move to Charlotte and get
another house, and he's all right. But the Indian people that's here is not
going to move.
I: Right.
S: And they're embedded in what they do, and they have to watch it, and they
have to be more careful of what they do because they're not going to
leave.
I: Um huh.
S: And that creates the problem of gamble that you have to take if you're
going in business. You have to be willing to.
I: Have we not also been taught that to gamble with anything is wrong?
47
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: I'm quite sure so.
I: UH, so I think you've got a good point in saying that uh, a lot of it does go
back to our religious teaching. Uh, because uh, Indian people...well most
Indian wouldn't you say do go to church every Sunday morning?
S: Uh, I would think most of them do. Uh the churches we go to is uh...we have
probably more churches in our radius...about eight miles of Pembroke, than any
other place. But the churches that we have, is not nice churches. I mean they,
the people that go there are nice, and the service is nice and what have you,
but I'm talking about the structure, the building itself, compared with uh,
a church in Lumberton, or a church in Red Springs, or a white church.
I: Don't...don't you feel like though the Indian churches are beginning to change
as far as that goes? Uh, most of them are beginning to either add on, or
build a better structure?
S: Yes, that is because we are...we are making more money than we have in the
past. And so we have more money to spend for them.
I: Uh huh.
S: Now I...I attend a church...Prospect Methodist Church is the largest
Methodist Church in the United States.
I: Right...right.
S: We have an enrollment of 600 people.
I: Largest Indian Methodist Church?
S: Yes. Uh, but it has uh...it's changed quite a bit. The collections are greater
now than what they were five years ago.
I: Uh huh. Uh...then do you feel like uh...this teaching uh...about uh...this
48
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: ...hinderance we talk about...that the church has created an attitude.
Uh...do you think some of this comes from the fact that uh...the majority
of the ministers are not uh.. .fl-trained ministers, that they have uh,
set down and learned what they've learned on their own, without uh, being
able to expand on their own personal knowledge?
S: I think that's very very)very true.
I: Or do you really feel like this has something to do with this?
S: The ministers that have been to seminary don't think along the same line as
a minister who has not.
I: Right.
S: Because uh, we have quite a few ministers that's self-educated ministers.
They know the Bible, and they try to live by the Bible, and that's it.
I: Right.
S: They only has heard the Bible from their parents. They only heard the Bible
from their own reading, and formed their opinion from that.
I: Um huh.
S: They haven't heard other views on the Bible.
I: Um huh.
S: And the teachings of the Bible. That from a...the uh, ministers that have
been to seminaries has.
I: Right...right.
S: And they are more liberal than the...the self-educationists.
I: Uh, I'ver heard it said that to bring about social change amongst the uh,
Indian people, and to get Indian people motivated, we've got to venture out
into the churches. Do you feel that's true?
49
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Well now...I don't want to knock the churches because I've met with the
uh, Bear Swamp Ministers Association quite a few times when I first started
here, Because I had to get the feelings of the people in the church. I had
to get the feelings of the ministers.
I: Um huh.
S: To make sure thatlIwas going in the right direction.
I: Well that's...that's what im saying. Uh, too often we overlook this aspect,
and this is one aspect that Indian people look to, is to the minister, and to
the church you know. Uh, we've gone around them so to speak, and not really
gotten them involved in the whole process of bringing about social change.
S: Well uh...could uh you turn..... Well this is uh, when I was talking about
the ministers and I met with the ministers, I felt as though that I should
get their feelings to start. So I give a speech to the uh, Bear Swamp Minister's
Association.
I: Uh, define for us a little bit what is the Bear Swamp Minister's Association?
S: It's uh...it's the Babptist ministers that covers-uh...there're:forty-two...
forty-two churches that's members of it. And it covers Robeson County,
Scotland County, Hope County, Gladen, Sampson, and uh, Dillon County in
South Carolina, and another county in South Carolina.
I: Is this all Indian?
S: It's all Indian ministers. It's an Indian organization.
I: Baptist?
S: Baptist ministers.
I: O.k.
S: But in the speech that I give them here, I said that the uh, times are
50
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...changing all over the world, but the church hadn't changed to keep up with the
times. Back when the church was formed that we had, that was the only place that
we could, as Indian people, could get together, could meet anybody, was at the
church.
I: Right.
S: But the things are changed uh, a whole lot now. But the role of the church to
keep up with the changes of the people has to change also.
I: Right.
S: This is what uh...one thing that I believe you can never find the Bible wrong,
because however you...you can interpretate the Bible in so many different uh,
ways that you...you just can't...what was truthful now, a hundred years ago,
reading this part of the scripture...I can read it today and get a completely
different meaning.
I: Uh huh.
S: The same thing, but what would have been wrong a hundred years ago is right
now. See, it's completely different. But this is what uh...is what I said to
them, uh...that I thought that they should change. For the people here in
Robeson County, the church has been the only social institution which we
could gather collectively. But uh, like I said, that...that's the main thing with
the church. And I...I go on in my...in my speech here to tell how the role of
the church should be played to a community. Because you can draw uh, a circle
around any church...a mile radius, and there's people in that mile radius that
needs help, that the church doesn't help. So they are not really taking care of
what the church is set for. The church that we know it now in our community,
takes care of Sie church members.
51
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: Um huh.
S: They go there for self-satisfaction.
I: Right.
S: And not to do the work of the church. But I feel like that the uh, the churches
role is...it has to change in order to uh...to meet the obligations in which we,
which we have set up. But it's uh...that's our biggest collective people that we
have is in the church. And if we find how to motivate those people, we're all
right. But most people are not going to be motivated in a church, because they
can hide under the churches roof to keep from doing anything. To keep from doing
their responsibilities.
I: Right.
S: And the ministers who's brought..I give each a copy of the speech, and they
brought out some of the things in their sermons and which we have to work on,
our attitudes, like we do everyone else.
I: Um huh.
S: That how important it is that industry moves in, and how important it is for a
man to make uh, uh, fitfa -rsado iaL rs a year. How much it can mean to the
church, and his beliefs. And that's why I...I think that our...our big thing is
in the church. I'm not an atheist or anything like that, I believe in the
church.
I: Yeah, well I understand what you're saying then...this is one of the things in
particular we've been trying to capture with our oral history program, you know, the
life-styles of the people, and this is one thing that uh, hadn't really been
expounded upon in any of my interviews, and I'd like for you to give us that in
detail, so that we would uh, have your concepts there.
52
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Well let me say this then. I...we're probably running out of time. I can give you
the speech, and you can put it in the uh...you can put what part you would like
on here, because some of it might not be relevant to what you would like. I can
give you the speech and you can put what you'd like in it. I think it's very good.
I: Um huh...um huh.
S: Or I got a lot of response from it.
I: Um huh. Uh...you say you got a lot of response from it. What type of response
from it?
S: All of them are the same thing, they're favorable, they know it's so, but to get
them to act on it has been a little hard to do. They just hate to move. You know
it's one of those things like uh...one of the ministers was telling me after I
give the speech, and it made him think of a joke that...that he had heard.
I: Um huh.
S: That relates to this...and he said a lot of times we...we...it passes our head,
we think we're talking to somebody else...plus we're taking a message to somebody
else. But said, I understand what you're...what you're trying to get to. The...the
joke was that he uh...this minister...would always preach to this man that was
always sitting on the front pew. And every time that he would leave he would
say, you told them about it today. You really put it to them today. And he
arranged his sermon just to preach to this one individual, and he would always
//
come back... he would miss what he was talking about, and say preacher you really
told them about it today. So one day it rained, and nobody come but this man,
(I '1) f
and he said well...the man said well I...I think that we should probably call
the services off. The preacher said, no, the Lord has given me a message to give,
and I'm going to...I'm going to give it. He said, well go ahead. So they went through
53
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...the whole service, so he went through his same...so he went through his same
original that he always goes through, the minister...he went to the door, the
/
man come out to shake hands like he always do, and he said, preacher...if
you'd a...if they would have been here today, you would have certainly told them
about it today. So that's...that's the attitude that most of the ministers get.
That when they're talking they feel like that you're not talking to them. You're
always talking to somebody else.
I: Somebody else.
S: So I think the uh...the speech, and the involvement that-I.had with the ministers
went over quite well. Uh, the way that I did get to some of the people......
END SIDE TWO, TAPE ONE
54
Lum 82 AB
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
TAPE: TWO
SIDE: ONE
S: ...what the ministers did, and the people in general, they don't seem to
quite understand what you are trying to dol nd when you're talking to
them they don't feel like it's them that you're talking to. You're talking
to the other man all the time. But uh. like I said, they...we have been
able to get loans from the ministers that...that I visited, that I talked
to, because they do talk to the most people.
I: Right...right.
S: In the county. And they are the uh, they're the setters of the uh,
attitudes that we have.
I: Right. Now do you feel like uh, the ministers are afraid of venture
out...venturing out, from becoming the stereotype uh, concept that many
people have that a minister should be.? Do you think they're afraid that
the congregations will uh, ridicule them if they step out of this
stereotype?
S: Well uh, some of that's true I feel like, but uh, a lot of times you know
we have ministers that's not full-time ministers, and most of our
ministers are that way that's not full time. And they have to work for a
living like everyone else, and preach on Sundays.
I: Right.
55
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE MAYNOR LOCKLEAR
S: And they can't speak out a lot of times like uh, they would like to.
Now where we're getting the ones that speak out full time...is the...is
the full-time ministers, and ones that is being heard is full-time. And
of course they're the ones that has been to seminars...uh, seminaries and
what have you. They've got their degree in ministry.
I: Uh huh.
S: So uh it's going through an educational process that they are going
through also. And when that is completed, I don't know how long it will
be, but if a man is...if the man's a minister, he's had some training in
that profession, but you know, most of our people say that if a man is
called to preach, he don't need no training.
I: Right...right.
S: But that...you know that's not necessary so.
I: Right.
S: Because he's dealing with people's emotions, and people's lives.
I: Well uh, then uh, the best thing for like this is the need that uh...we
need to venture out, and to working more closely with the church. And uh,
seeing that the uh, church ventures out, and the needs of the people other
than uh...those uh, religious needs. But in order to have religious
experiences, other needs have to be meet...met, and there's a il y^ -'
concept of the church in the needs of people, than just preaching to them
on Sunday.
S: True, this is what I...I...I feel like. That the uh...the church has to
go beyond the spiritual needs of an individual.
I: Right.
56
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: And that's what the church did. That's all it had to do fifty years ago.
And it's still doing the same thing. I think the uh, the advancement of
the people is getting uh, by the church. And the church has to keep up.
For an example, the...the Catholic religion has changed some of their
beliefs, or some of their doings in the past, and we have to change ours
also to keep up with the times. I don't think it's wrong because it was
done in the 1600s this way. Uh, in the 1600s, you know we didn't have air
planes, and we didn't have cars and what have you, and things are
changing, and we have to change with the times. Religion has to change
with the times. You don't have to change your moral standards.with the
times, morals can be the same. But we have to have money to operate
today, and uh, most of the churches don't speak, or don't preach that a
man should make money. He should pay his tithes in church, but he
shouldn't make...he shouldn't make, you know, go overboard making money.
I: Right. Jeff uh, what's your feelings about the Lumbee name?
S: Well uh, I maybe classified by saying this Janie as an apple Indian. But
being an Indian, I never really think of myself as being an Indian. I'm
an Indian, and know I'm an Indian, but I can't let being an Indian stand
in my way or hinder what I'm going to do. Because I can't sit back and
say well, I'm an Indian, and I should have so and so because I'm an
Indian. I don't feel like anybody should have anything because they're so
and so, because if we're going to fit in the uh, in the America's United
States here dociety...we have to go along, and we have to do the things
/ 0
that...that makes the country run. If we were in control of the country,
57
SUBJECT: JEFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...we could...we could back off an do what we wanted to, but we can't do
it, we're in a minority, and the only way we're going to progress...we
have to get in the mainstream of the way the things go. And uh, most of
our...or when I was small, and uh....see an Indian..on television, he
always had feathers. He was a stereotype Indian and what have you, and
I know that I was never that way. I never had feathers, and the only
difference between myself and a whiteman was uh...was the color. And
there's not that much difference in color. Our uh, our capability of
learning is the same because you never saw Indians win wars on television.
You never saw them do anything constructively, but most of the time the
Indians was always right. They never...they never started anything. They
didn't move in on the settlers, unless the settlers moved in on them.
And it was always somebody else that caused them to do it, but they never
did get that credit for fighting back. They always got ridiculed for
fighting back. And as long as I take this attitude, and try to live in
the United States, you just can't do it because you have to fight back.
There's a...I heard a man say not long ago that the Indian people in
Robeson County didn't have the guts it takes. Which when he first said
it kind of upset me and I thought about it for awhile, and I...I had to
agree with him, which I didn't tell him that I did. But I had to agree
with him because...in order to be a success here, we have to have that
ability to fight back. And the Indians don't fight back unless that is
the last alternative to do. They might say uh, some things that's not
nice, but you can say something else to them, and they get mad and leave.
58
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: And you can't get mad and leave and fight back. So we say, well what...
what's the good of fighting back, you know, we are going to...we're going
to be ,right. It goes back to our...our training in the church again,
.1
we're going to be aright, so why should I have this extra thousand
dollars, I'll get along without it. And I've heard my father say it
quite a few times that...that he's as good, or better than I am if he
would have got so and so.
I: Right.
S: So that's the training that we have been through. I can't hold them
directly responsible, because their parents think the same thing. And
it's been handed down and handed down, but it has to stop someplace.
I: Right.
S: And if a man should get wrapped up in being an Indian...and that's
what I am...you know, and that's all, and uh, I'm against everything
white. I'm against everybody that don't see eye to eye with me. I don't
feel like they can ever make it. And uh, I fe l this way about the
Indian name...of Lumbee. It don't really matter to me what the name is,
but we have a name of Lumbee, and I feel like we should keep the name
-0
of Lumbee instead of trying to undo the past. We are to busy looking
behind to ever see what's ahead. And Indian people, we're kind of like a
mule with blinds on, we can omly see in one direction, and that usually
is behind. We...they got the Indian name that uh...I was young when they
got it, so it didn't really...I didn't know that much about it. I didn't
uh, it wasn't real popular then to be an Indian because of the association
we had in the county with black and what have you. And most of the
59
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYNOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE LOCKLEAR
S: ...Indians that were Indians at that time would have liked to been
something else. But uh, the name, it don't bother me. I don't have any
feelings one way or the other. I have to uh...to look at what I can do as
an individual for development of the people that's around me, and they
can't develop unless the county develops, and that includes blacks and
whites.
I: Well you say it doesn't bother you one way or the other, but then uh,
if there was a great movement and the tribal name changed again, do you
think we should continue going through name changes, and you wouldn't
if-
be bothered, aiSd every two years our name was changed?
S: Well, I don't uh...I don't think it should.
I: Are you satisfied with the one we've got?
S: I'm satisfied with the one we have. Whatever it would be, I'm satisfied
with Lumbee now.
I: Right.
S: If it was changed...I don't feel like the Indians have time to try to
change something that's happened. We better...we should be preparing
for the future.
I: Right.
S: And what's happened in the past...let it happen in the past, and make
sure things like that doesn't happen again. But it's going to take too
many...too much of your time, my time to try to keep the name like it
is. We have another group over here trying to change the name, and where
does the progress come?
I: Uh huh. So uh, you're satis...do you think most people are satisfied with
the Lumbee name?
60
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE LOCKLEAR
S: I think most people accepts it for that reason. That uh, it's always
done, and why change it.
I: Um huh. Uh...then uh,what is your concept of being Indian?
S: Uh, the only Indians I know, is the Indians here. I've met some on
reservations in different places, and...but uh...the concept I have
of Indians...as smart a people as you're going to find, physically and
mentally...if they're given an opportunity to do so. But the thing -/fcl
we're missing as...Indian people...is not having the guts to demand
the...the...that opportunity.
I: Uh huh.
S: We felt like like that we should...the doors should open to us. Or we
should get something just...just because...no, I better not say just
because we are Indians, but we didn't have to fight it, we got the...the
college degree. We felt like we should be accepted because of our degree,
not because what we could do.
I: Uh huh. But then as...then as we were we sort of took our punishment, and
went on without uh questioning why.
S: We took hate against the white for not accepting us. But still the white
is geared to make money. The uh, United States is geared to make money,
and...and if he don't accept me for some reason, it's because he can make
more money with something else. Then asking why should he be giving us
these things of his own time, that he's worked at. It's the same at my
home, I'm not going to be giving somebody something that I have worked
hard to accumulate just because I feel sorry for the man. I'll give him
a little appeasement you know, and help him, but I'm not going to give
61
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE LOCKLEAR
S: ...him my home.
I: Uh huh. Uh...do you think this is beginning to change do you think Indian
people are becoming more willing to fight back than what they were
fifteen years ago?
S: Well, I'm quite sure so. You know the incident happened with the Old Main
situation at Pembroke, was one of the first that I know of. Was where
the Indian fin...they fought back. Not to...not for any capital gain, but
they fought back. But from that come a lot of things, uh...that
stimulated from it, that the Indians took a stand. We just didn't move
on. And it...you know the problems that we went through with to get
people to fight back on that issue.
I: Right.
S: And I don't think Old Main was the issue, as much as getting people to
fight back for something they believed in. The building sure meanta lot
to all of us, but the biggest thing on it was that we got the Indians to
fight back.
I: Uh huh. Uh...then uh, when you uh...what am I trying to say...is uh...you
think then that this was a stepping stone to a new day so to speak?
S: I would think so. I think it's the greatest thing that's happened to the
Indian people.
I: What would you like to see done with Old Main?
S: To be truthful Jane, I couldn't tell you.
I: You just want it left bhred?
S: I wanted it left there for the point to...for the Indians to fight
back was the reason I left it. But I'll leave the educational system to
62
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...the people that's into education...that has the degree in education,
that should know. And if they feel like that it uh...that it should be uh,
some type of museum or what have you, uh...that's fine with me. But I
hate for somebody to come down and say well, we should tear it down, or
we should do this, without questioning what they say. And that's been
our...our big problem here. We never question, we accept what a person
says.
I: Uh, talking about part of that, you had an interesting experience
during the Old Main situation about a march one day. Would you uh,
uh...explain that to me, and uh, tell me about your hinderances that
you, you know, your apprehensions you felt about uh, doing something
like that.
S: Well, working at the agency here I couldn't get involved as much as
I'd liked to have. But working at the agency is what brought me to
realize that we had to. From...uh, from a selfish reason I imagine,
from my business development, I knew that we had to fight back, and
we had to instill that in the people that we were going to fight back.
So we uh, they met...we met one day about uh, well, it was at twelve,
there was about seven or eight men met. And they went through the
planning of how we were going to conduct the uh...saving Old Main.
And Mr. Danford Dial, Harold Deaves, -Dowden Brooks, and myself was at
the meeting, and we were coming back, and I said it would never work
Because uh, the ways that we were...they were planning to save the
building was the same way that the Indians had planned to do things
before. On the sympathy...just because...and what have you. Just because
63
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...it's nice...the morally thing to do. But you just don't operate on
morally rights in business all the time. You operate on what's legally
right. What's in the realms of law. So we decided that uh, or uh, I
talked to Harold Deaves about the possibility of marching, and everybody
was against the idea that we were at the meeting for. So we come back
here to the office, and we finally got Mr. Dials roused up so that he
was ready to march. So we got the signs made, and everything made to
march, and in the meantime I got a call to go downstairs. I didn't
think we were going to do it...really.
I: All along, you were leading on and saying do it, but you had apprehensions
yourself.
S: Ain't no way I was going out there, because that was below the dignity
in which we had been raised to believe in.-
I: Right.
S: That's the way the blacks done it, that's-the.wayso and so done it, but
we were above that. We did it at a sophis...at...uh...uh, at a higher
level.
I: A sophisticated way...yeah.
S: Right. So uh, in the meantime I got a call to come down stairs to...I had
some ladies down stairs that wanted to meet me. And they got,the signs
made up to...to uh...march. And they sent a gentleman to my office, and
said that they were ready, and I said to myself, you look at them damn
fools, they's going to march. And I didn't go and I stood there and
talked hoping they would go on.
I: Yeah... "4-eA .X-
64
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S:Yeah. And so they didn't, and the man came back in about five minutes,
and said they...said they was ready to go. They must be serious, and I
still didn't leave because I didn't want to get involved in that. But
uh, then Harold Deaves stuck his head in the door, and said let's go.
So I went out, and I said I can't let.them know that I'm chicken.
I: Right.
S: I grabbed my sign and said let's go. But I thought we were just going
to walk across the street, and everybody was going to chicken out. But
as soon as we got across the street, Mr. Edwin...uh, Mr. Elmer Hunt, who's
a photographer at the college was up taking pictures of some of the
sorority houses, so he took our picture. I said, Oh my God! Put up...put
my sign up, and down the street we went.
I: Wanting to turn around all the time?
S: Wanting to leave, hiding behind the sign and this kind of thing, So we got
about half way up there, and we were hollering "Save Old Main," and this
kind of stuff. We marched around the school house and this, you know.
And it was...it was embarrassing but when I got started the embarrassment
left me then. And that kind of thing would never embarass me again. If I
-feelthe need I egT ...I can do it in a minute now. But I'd never..,I
never was in anything like that. So we come back, and we...here, and when
we got back, the lady from he Robesonian was here to take our picture.
So I said let me run in and get Harold Deaves. And I wasn't/Iaout to go
back out there and get my picture made. But still it...it's the training
that we had gone through.
I: Right...it's what we've been taught, you don't rock the boat, and uh, you
be nice to old Indians. 65
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE LOCKLEAR
S: That...that's it. But come to find out, that the next night we had a
board meeting at LRDA, and they got on us pretty hard about doing it.
We shouldn't have done it, which I agree, we shouldn't have done it
during working hours. But uh, come to find out after the meeting, we got
in the car, and I...I made a statement. I was sitting in the car with
Harold Deaves, and Mr.Dial, and uh, I made the statement that how
scared I was, and they turned around and looked at me, an said ou
were scared? Said, we were scar-ed to death; we thought you were the
only one that wasn't scarred. So come to find out, everybody in the
group was shamed as they could be, but they done it. And that's the
important thing, that we have to portray to the Indian people. Regardless
of embarrassment we uh, Indian people are...they fear..I don't know
whether you say fear...they...they're just scarikd to be embarassed.
I: Right.
S: They don't ask questions a lot of times because they think that you
should know the answer.
I: Uh huh.
S: You want to...but it's part of our training that we've been through in the
past. Uh, that...that if we don't know, we're scared to ask, and that
kind of stuff, and we've been pushed around. Not all the time their fault,
but most of the time our fault. And I come to realize after the Old Main
issue that whatever we do we have to do it. And the fault that we're in,
the reason we're in this conditions we are, is our own fault. And we can't
blame nobody else, because if we start blaming somebody else, we can never
change the reasons.
66
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE LOCKLEAR
I: Right.
S: A lot of times it's not all our fault, but unless we believe it's our fault
we're going to stay always separating somebody else.
I: So uh...be though...even though uh, it did sort of damage your dignity
to go out and march, you feel now that it was a worthwhile thing for you
as a person?
S: Oh sure...sure. And I think everybody should go through that experience.
I: Uh huh. Uh...
S: It made me at that time do something that I believed in strongly. And...
and I took the action necessary to do it. But I'd...I'd never done it
before. I'd always said it would have been nice if we'd done so and so,
and it would of been better if they hadn't of done it, but then we...we
got out to do the things that...that we wanted done. And that's what
I wanted to talk...I was saying earlier, that we don't have the guts to
do what we need to be doing. And that was just one small incident that
we had the guts. But if we'd a knew,, and if I'd a knewd those other
people was scarred as I was, I'd of never done it.
I: Never done it...right.
S: It was awful funny though.
I: If the time arises again would you still have those same apprehensions,
or will you be more confident in doing something like that when you feel
like it's needed.
S: Well, I was always a person that believed if I thought...if I believed
in something...I was confident that I was right. There was never no second
67
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE LOCKLEAR
S: ...guesses in my mind whether I was right or not. And when I was out
there uh, demonstrating, I was sure I was doing right. You know, and
which I still think of it. But if it happens again...uh, I don't think
I'd have second thoughts about doing it. And I think that opened the,
that little...the little march that we had, the eight people that we had,
opened the way for uh, eight people. It brought a lot of the people in
involved in Old Main...it criticized it at that time...criticized in
what we did in March. But in a month later, they were completely different.
The uh...speaking of the Old Main incident...uh, you know, we met at
Old Foundry and formed a steering committee type thing to take care of
what we were doing because it was getting real big at that time.
I: Right.
S: And uh Janie Locklear...or Maynor Locklear was the executive chairman
of it. And well, she worked awful hard to put the thing together, and
most of it was her responsibility...the good and the bad she got credit
for. But uh she...she spent a lot of money and time in trying to restore
Old Main. And the building, we stopped the uh...we stopped them from
tOaring it down of course through their efforts. At that time I had to
get out of it because it was getting to deep in what I...what I was
working here. And it had to be done with people outside the agency. So
I had to kind of take a back seat then, and wish everybody well. But uh,
we were successful in stopping the destruction of the building. And it
so happened that the building caught on fire, and burned, and our
governor....
I: Filed arsonu....
68
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: Yeah. I don't know how...who did it, they haven't found it yet. But our
governor when he was running was Republican, and as you are probably
aware of we never had a Republican governor in North Carolina in the
past seventy years.
I: Right.
S: So he was one of the first that made a statement to save Old Main which
was a likeable thing for him to do, because he couldn't lose any votes
in Robeson County being a Republican, because he'd never had any...he
wouldn't get any to start with. So he said if he was elected he'd do
what he could to restore Old Main. And when the building caught on fire
and burned he uh...
I: Who is He?
S: The governor.
I: What's his namT
rS .-
S: Governor Holdhouser...Jim Holdhouser.
I: O.k.
S: He's young, energetic, and I felt for a long time that I thought he'd be
JCs
the best man. I got aquainted with him in the JygCees, four years ago.
And he was an outstanding a>G.-Cee, and I knew the man, so that's why I
supported him for a long time. Not because I was a Republican at that time,
but because I thought he was the best man.
I: Right.
S: And he said if he was elected, what he would do for the Old Main, and when
it burned that he...he come down right after the building burned, and on
the steps of the building, Whit Chaney, and some of the other leaders in
69
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: the movement, he said that he would do what he could to restore the
building. And he got a...was successful in getting the group a grant
for a a housand-4delars to restore the building. So that's in
the process now. What they do with it...I...I heard there was a
feasability study to uh, restore the building...see what possible ways to
do it, but like I said earlier...I couldn't stay involved with it as
much as I would like to because, you know how those things go.
I: Right. Uh, Governor Holdhouser uh, got a Federal uh, Grant from the
Coastal uh, Regional....
S: -------------- development.
I: ----- ------ development. And uh, this is a grant for a study
commission to be organized to study uh, what would be the most feasable
uses of the uh Old Main building. And uh, this grant was just funded
last week, and hopefully in a couple of weeks...uh, we will be uh, hav...
the governor will appoint the commission to start work on the study.
Uh....
S: As well...let me say one other thing Janie...as well as I know the people
that's involved from here...the Indian people that's involved, Janie and
the rest...I'm quite sure they will ride a heard on the thing...that they
do make sure that the uh...feasability study goes the way that they want
it to go, and include what they want it to include, because if they have
the feasability study, it's so many times that they might say it's not
feasable to do. I'm quite sure the people that we have is going to try
to find out why it's not, and just not take the man's word if it goes
against their wishes.
70
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE LOCKLEAR
I: Right. Uh...then what you're saying, you feel like the community very
definitely should have uh...this type of input into uh decisions made
about them?
S: Yes...yes, I think so. I think the community will become from the results
of that little march that we had...will come more involved with the
university. Not from a critical state, but from a helpful standpoint.
It serves on two purposes to bring to the uh...to the community their
involvement, how they have failed the college, and how the college has
failed them. It's been a two-way thing.
I: Right.
S: And I think there's more people being involved in the college in the
past year, more local people than ever has been. And of course the
college is involved in things that they have never been in. I think
it's going to work out all right. But we never can stop, we never can
be satisfied at what we get.
I: Right, that's true. Well, it's really been nice talking to you uh, Jeff
do you have anything else that you would like to add to your part in
Lumbee history?
S: No, I just hope...that I could be as successful in the future as I'd like
to be in business development, because I think the future of the Indian
people has to be in business development' q economic development. We can't
do very much unless we have the money. If we get the money we can do
something, but without the money, we can't do...very little. We can
have all the technical knowledge in the world, without a dollar, we
can't do anything.
71
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
I: What are your future goals then?
S: Well, we hope that we can set up an organization as I mentioned earlier,
for the Lumbee Indian business men to work from, that can do basically
the same things that I'm doing now.
I: Right.
S: But they are funding themselves because I'm tied. A lot of times I can't
speak like I'd want to, because I'm with a Federal Agency. But I'm
representing a man that's uh, as well as I am a farmer because I'm
employed by The Lumbee Regional Development Association that's funded
to work for Indian people. So I can't offend that school teacher in
any way J id I can't offend anyone, and it kind of keeps our hands tied.
)//
But if we had an organization that was funded directly by the Indian
.-----a y
business gen they could do what was best for the Indian business msiP
I: Right.
S: They could do what was best economically for the Indian people, and that's
what we have to get, because these businesses...tthey know-more about the
business. They no more about how, the way it should...uh, the way it
should be run than anyone else. But the way we are here, a school teacher,
a housewife, can have as much effect.on me as the largest business man.
I: Right.
S: Because we can't offend her either. It's good and bad...it...it saves,
it runs, it checks...sort of a check and balance system that you can't
go overboard one way or the other. But we have to get more specialists
in what we are doing, and I hope in another year we do have the uh,
Indian business organiz...have an organization that would do basically
72
SUBJECT: JEFFERY MAYNOR
INTERVIEWER: JANIE M. LOCKLEAR
S: ...what I'm doing now.
I: Right. O.k. thankS/i lot Jeff.
S: Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW
73
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