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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
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f with the Doris Duke Foundation, the American Indian Oral
"History Program under the auspices of the University of Florida. I'm at the
home of Mrs. Crossie Lowry, just west of Pemberton, North Carolina. Today is
May 8, 1973.
3: Mrs. Lowry, can you tell me when your birthday is?
L: Uh, November 3, 1900.
J: And how old are you _] 0_ ?
L: Well, I'll be-I was seventy-two in November, the third day of November.
I was seventy-three November 3r4
J: How long have you been living here at this present location?
L: Sixty years.
J: Uh, tell me a little bit about where you've lived as a child _
L: The-my parents farm. I always worked on the farm. I always had til I got
toJ 0. 16t and we lived right near i&4ltC, uh, right-I mean
we lived on /. Lowry's farm. We'd sharecrop there until, uh, I
was married and went.
J: Uh huh. And how many children were / f -- family? How many
brothers and sister ,h Ai 1 .yt/t/ ?
L: Well, there was fourteen of us.
J: And what was-what was your parent--your father's name?
L: Steve Maynard.
J: And your mother's name?
L: Magnolia Maynard.
J: And what was she before she married?
L: Well, she was, uh, J 41 // ut, uh-
J: Okay, well, uh, now do you--what was your father's father's name--
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J: grandpa's name?
L: afle r4
J: And did your family live at the same location the whole time that you were
a child?
L: Yes.
J: And uh--
L: Now they lived there until I was a little girl, and they moved to
Lowry's farm, right near there, right near 4/ j (, 4 4CgV 7
"L n and I lived there until I married.
J: Uh, how old were your parents when they died ?
L: My father was eighty and my mother was fifty-seven.
J: She died early. Now, what happened to her?
L: Well, uh, she got frightened and run a pce across a field and the doctor
said that all of her blood went out V veins and there weren't none to
keep her heart a beating.
J: So she died suddenly.
L: Yeah, she died suddenly.
J: Tell me a little bit about, uh, going to school IAr A ) tLW4/ child.
all of you go 4 school or C__-
L: Well, what schooling A r _T school.. ) f
izMA C) I ---o --
"down ^ ^^L,
down there AL5 I was going when there was
mean was up there, but I never did ge t> mal, I just igh
school.
J: C^
L: Yeah.
J: Who was the teacher .l.____ ?
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L: Uh, Mr. A 1 S L ( 1er, Mr. Anderson L 6i/Cft and Miss Eliza
J: Now, uh, when you started to school there, were you small, uh, a child--
L: Yes, I was around six years when I started school there.
J: Now, do you remember prior to that time AW/ I Af a06 -- ?
L: UH, yes, the school that I went to was an old school and they finally
built another school there. It's just a small school.
J: Mrs. Lowry's talking about Ly AD ( )- "
Uh, when the school that, uh, you d oA done away with, uh, did you
ever attend school--
L: No, I d n't attend school at the college. I was--no--3 was married--
marrie/ e1 f iQ ?j)
J: Uh, how old were you when you married?
L: I was, uh, sixteen in November and the marriage date was January.
J: And uh, what was your--
L: 1917. Uh, William H. Lowry or William Henry Lowry,
J: Zkd i ?
L: Yes.
J: When did he die?
L: He died in 1944.
J: 1rw vf6Ve s 4 ?
L: Sixty. &/z .
J: Uh, as you were a child going to school, uh, what kind of importance did
your family place on a child getting an education __ .........._
J ^ ftW Aitj4 A couple brothers i--- 2
Was it important to your parents to see that you _____2____
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L: Oh yes, they wanted--they wanted all of us to go to school but you know
back in my days of going to school I had to wait until everybody got
through picking cotton f we picked sff thenr
j C His _CIgoat
on the C ) and uh, X dldntt get to go like T should
on account of that and then I had to stay out .e.tf'k0d 7/'1 J/CIr*
and cut corn stalks and pick them up and burn them and if it be late
when I'd get to go to school, I reckon that's why I didn't get more
education than I did. I only got to the fifth grade. i .tl
J: Now, uh, at that time, dis school go, uh, y7 I / six months
or nine months -Cf 7t
L: No, we didn't go nine months, uh, they would start late. I don't remember
time of the year we'd start, but it was later than the fall, and they
would teach until the spring and, uh, then they would quit. Maybe during
the summer they would have a few months of school after everybody had
&id V crops. ai-Ta V-cd plant tobacco I / -DM
-thon mt planted cotton and corn. Well, I'd get to go for a little bit
during that time.
J: So the main crops at that time was cotton--
L: Cotton and corn.
J: Uh, and people didn't plant tobacco?
L: No, they didn't plant tobacco here at that time.
J: What about, uh, the other children4n your family. How many of them, uh,
went ahead and attended schools 0OaHL / rn ae
L: Well, Uka 'li aynard finished college & iri. At _- ,-
and Theodore and Dolly, they finished college, Esma and Ben ,Tames, they
went and finished high school, but they didn't go to no college,
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J: Did any of the girs, uh, finish high school?
L: Yes, uh, j7 Qatherine and Beth and George Reed, they finished high
school.
J: And was that of them who passed?
L: Yes, that was--well they went in the summer because /A r ormal
down there. You know they combined that school got burnt up and so they
had to come down here atB.emble where the college is nnw.
J: Uh huh.
L: Uh, but they was another building there and then that building got Wa
bad until, uh, when they moved down from they had to buy
land. Indians had to buy land. T I remember well, it was Huston that
I could see my daddy standing !% / p v74 y < He was _4 /
L ',C Ln~ boto ofJjiC^^ the C?)
,' and he was standing at the bottom of the L
and he -in-d it and I believe he did e hid the last penny that he
had to pay on that first (Of Ce.s of land that the state got. And
uh, then they promisedIh they would build them a $75,000 building if
they would cAw?. T7 ^that ten acres of land. And o they went ahead,
uh, they went around and they got, uh, money and uh, ___ and they
built this building that's down here now that got burnt up,
J: #0 00
L: L4L^ /
J: Uh huh. Now, uh, you said that they went around and collected money from
these people in the community to buy the ten acres of land. Uh, who were
some of those men that were going around d// jI ?
L: Mr. Anderson (4Clk'Arnd Mr. Oscar Sampson was the one that come there
and talked to my daddy, and he told them that he knowed it weren't going
to do him no good, but he told them that he had children and he would like
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L: for them to, you know, finish college. I mean go to school. And so that
was why he hid the last penny. You know he had none to put in the bank.
J: Yeah. Uh huh.
L: And what he had he had in his pocket, and he told them he was going to
give them every cent that he owned. And I think it was ten dollars what
he give on it, and the land sold for ten dollars an acre at that time,
and by that, he bought an acre
J: So uh, did the state fulfill bt promise f Z 1;
was _QQ over? Did he build thisI/ ?
L: Yeah, they built this building. I think it runned a little bit over $75,
I don't remember just---
J: Thousand.
L: $75,000. But they built the building there on the same land that A le
this U4im ^ f That is why so bad to see the
J I(LF I know what my daddy had done.
J: Uh huh.
L: He had gived the last thing that he had in his pocket. Well, know he had
to that 4htl in order to pick the money enough to buy our groceries,
Of course, we raised plenty of corn, f and things like that, but
still we had to struggle to live at that time, but he gived all the money
he had to them. He told me-he didn't have none in the bank. He had what
he had in his pocket.
J: Uh, Mrs. Lowry, can you remember the time at which they started building
b04/I sie Was," did people come out to do work on it?
L: Oh yes, yes. I was living right here where I'm a living now -
0( MAvM f----
a living here whenever they s arted and uh, yes, a lot of foLks
come out. eI I just--that is the first rk
4
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L: knowing.
J: Uh huh.
L: And you know everybody -6 e. 0 iC -**
J: Can you remember the first time you ever went in A c ! or
anything?
L: Well, here it was --f gyi in and everything before I ever went in
it, but uh, they weren't near done building it.
J: Uh huh.
L: But I went several times. I went 7/ ) /d i /O g ft
J: Huh. And--
L: Off and on.
J: Yes. Do you, uh, remember the first time you ever went to a ?
L: Oh yes, I remember that well. Good gracious elizus at that time,
you know what they done?
J: What?
L: They had cars fromLb there and they would ride people downtown
or up to y_ They'd charge them ten cents a ride. You know there
weren't many cars at that time?
J: Yes.
L: that was a--a sight to get on a car or ride. You C (ao
J: I._ I_ a _nd they were having a program there?
L: Yeah, they'd have a program and they'd have the whole yard around and
around. They had stands that they sold the stuff and that i a big
thing to get--the college you know, or they called it the/V
J: Yeah. -
L: And they just I to do that. That was something else.
J: And I guess people came from all over the county?
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L: Oh yes, everywhere, and everywhere. I don't know where
all they did come from. You would have a job to get around there.
J: There was--
6L:% yeah
J: AP dt 4! WA
L: Who, where--
J: "-r%.
L: Yeaa, that was the commencement time.
J: Now, T'm going back a little bit to, um, uh, tell me some of the other
things that the (AI Vbuilding was used for other than just going to
Sschool--- f4 At/*t. community hold things there or--
L: Yes, yes. They used things there. They was, uh, we used committees,:Z!T
,mean these men that went around and G- up the money to build it.
That 's where the rfun !l was. WOel, there was several funerals there,
aRd people would, you know, get it and have t there, you know,
programs. The e politics, you know, they'd, you know, they'd
S6 sometsAto Jaminthmirm meetings. It was used for several
different things, but they finally stopped it. They padlocked it.
3: What about, um when you said these men their funerals were held there,
you're talking .Mr. Oscar Sampson and--
L: Mr. Oscar Sampso M Anderson Sampson=-Locklear and um, well they was
several -LC ks funerals was held there.
J: So it was more or less a tradition that leaders in the community, T ,4 .
L: Yes, yes.
J:.1 their funeral^S& A %4A *
L: Yes, uh huh.
J: Uh, when I die, I'd like to have mine there.
L: Well, I've thought a many a time, I'd like to have mine there, but like
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L: they'd done, I reckon I'll have mine--I'll want mine in the Zacharia
church.
J: Okay. Getting back to, uh, when you were a child going to school,
can you tell me anything about the, uh, building, the conditions you
went to school under, uh, about the--
L: Well, the- way I _II wheee I I _
J: Yeah.
L: Well, I'd have to go out in the woods and tote up limbs to keep a fire,
and we had no coal, nothing but -- ._t e get to the school house and
the. next thing you had to go to the woods, and pick up limbs and stuff
to make a fire. We had a hard time with going to school. No wonder I
didn't get nowhere YY.\A
J: Bet it took you about half the morning to get the place warm.
L: To get the place warm. I never will forget it. There was some folks
they'd throwed out up there, a old lady, Miss Lucy Jean Thompsof and
Miss Jeannie Thompson. They was put out. We went there that morning
and it was a cold morning. We went there and found the stuff out on
the-out on the road, where they hauled it out there. And uh, we went
in that morning and that is the warmest building seemed like I ever
went in my life, and I enjoyed that morning. I didn't enjoyed seeing
their stuff out, but I enjoyed that building thenthat morning.
J: Had they gone there to spend the night or what-wht--
L: Yeah, they went in the school house to spend that night until they
could get a place to go to.
J: They didn't have anywhere else to go?
L: No, they finally moved t-.Red Banks, and that's where they lived until
they all died. Outside of Jeannie, now she went to one of her daughter's
houses and that's where she died, but Aunt Lucy Jean, Wiley Thompson, and
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L: uh, his wife all died back in Red Banks. Uh, she was my husband's sister,
Georgiana j44 Wiley Thompson's wife was my husband's sister 14"
they all, Wiley got fM a place and got a place and they lived
pretty good.
J: Um, Mrs. Lowry, do you vote?
L: Yes mam, I vote.
J: Uh, how long have you been voting?
L: Well, I've been voting, I reckon, about--oh-- 'i *o
I've been a voting, though, for a long time. I can't exactly tell you
the first voting I ever done, but I voted for a good while.
J: Umn, did urn, did you ever have any trouble getting registered dr-r
L: ell, no. I didn't have no trouble. I just--they put i' that the
women could vote and so I went and registered and I've been voting
ever since then, I guess.
J: You've been voting ever since?
L: Yes, but I didn't remember wha -year it was in.
J: And uh, prior to that time, women didn't vote?
L: No, none of the women used to vote.
J: Uh, did you:ever have to read anything in order to vote?
L: Well yeah, I had to, uh, read the names of the V Jrr that I was
going to vote for.
J: No, I meant, in order to get registered to vote, did you ever have to
read part of the Constitution?
L: Yeah, yes. Uh huh.
J: Uh, do you think people should vote?
L: Why yes. I think people should vote. I voted.
J: Do you think-
L: I mean, I voted this past year and I was in my seventy-twos and I think
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L: I'll try to vote as long as I live and i-, .
J: Do you think Indian people vote like they ought to?
L: Well no, no they didn't. They didn't vote like they ought to, uh,
they would, uh, hang around and wouldn't register and, you know,
couldn't vote. They had to register.
J: Uh huh. Do you think, uh, Indian people, uh, ever at one time felt
like, uh, there was no need to vote or didn't see the-f4e4ecf*
L: Yes, some of them felt that way. Some of them felt that way. You
know this--these older folks, now they didn't get to go to school even
as good as I did. Uh, I know my mother told about she was going to St.
4 A church to school, and uh, they--they didn't have a near school
to their home, and she had to go to St. a to school.
J: Church.
L: To the church.
J: I guess that was back when there was a mission there.
L: Yes, yes.
J: Ur, do Indian--uh the Indian people, due to their religion, believe it
was wrong to vote? Have you ever heard--
L: Yes, I'm heard tha. I'm heard that, but I never did feel like it was
no sense for t Avote.
J: I didn't either. Uh, do urn, ?
L: Yes, c.)
J: Uh, Mrs. Lowry, um, when you first lived here--how-when you first
lived here, ur, how much land did you, uh, own? ?
L: Well, my mother actually owned fifteen acres when I come here--fifteen acres.
J: Have you bought any more here since--
L: Oh yes. All qv uuild -thbe most _ i
then we sold them the land or give it t them eavTea
J: You're talking about AIA #1r 'A w diversity?
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L: Yeah, yeah. The most all of these fields in--Lochlear Hall and all of
that--all the way from North Prairie Hall on back from where Jones lives,
we owned that land and we sold every bit of that estate.
J: What about the gym-- where the old gym is?
L: Well, we didn't own that.
J: You didn't own that?
L: No. 1A
J: What about over where the, uh, English
L: Oh, 1--they got that-they've got that-from-that was after my
husband--my husband died. he got it.
J: Okay, tell me about when you sold them the land for Loqoear Hall, uh,
did uK, were you treated fairly?
Lz Well, no, no. They didn't treat me fairly.
J: How much land did they get at that time?
L: I believe, if I make no mistake, it was, um, ten or it was eleven acres
they got.
J: How long ago was that-about in the fifties?
L: Yeah, it was in the forties-it was in the forties, and my husband sold
that.
J: Uh huh_ t_ .
L: Uh huh, yeah.
J: Uh--
L: That other--why he didn't took it 4r4 4;
J: Uh huh. You're talking about, uh, okay, you've said you've, uh, sold them
the land where Loc ear ..as that the first land you sold to the
state for the university?
L: Yeah. We. sold them that strip of land. We, uh, sold--we bought some more
and we sold them that a/ we sold that. I don't know how
IF
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L: many times we sold land to the state.
J: And now thet. trying to, uh, get some more from you--
L: Oh yes, yeah. Oh their working on it, but they never paid me for it.
J: You mean they-- /
L: I was told that-whenever they brought us the / .I^, I told them
that if they would save I'd let them have the land for $6,000.
I got $5,000 for that 'N Sr eight there joining.
J': Hiuh.
L: And T--I figured that S strong enough' to hold a building
S[__________ That other ought to be a little
bit more than that.
J: UIh Buh.
L: And J-_SQ when they offered me $32,000 for ten- acres
hundreds
and $30Q.oume I Believe it's $30 some hundred or twenty some hundred.
J; Now that land there j Is that where they're building that
new art building or is it back on over?
L: It's, uh, it's--I mean it's the, uh, uh, they're building that-that
building on this other that I sold, the $5,000, ur, acre trade.
J: .Teah.
L: But this is over where they claimed thoCfn-llI us ball park and parking
lots and I don't know what all over there, __J_ _____
J: Um, so um, they, uh, state said that they were going to get it anyway?
L: QO yeah--yeah. They'd took it over. I had to move my tobacco farm,
pay for moving it, by my tobacco farm, and then I had to pay for it to
being moved, and uh, English told me that the state would move my tobacco
farm or build me one. And I told him I'd rather have that one movedj .
Cf uFti- tt iis' built out of. It is built out of good stuff,
and I'd rather have it moved then to have a new one. If I couldn't get
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L: the timber that was in that farm, uh, I couldn't get enough--no more
timber just like that was in that farm, and so I told him I'd rather
have the farm moved. Well, he said it would be moved, and then I
heard that it was up for sale and I called him and asked him and he
denied telling me that. And I had witnesses to prove that he told me
that, Well, he would--they were having it put up for sale; and I didn't
even know it. And whenever I did, they brought me, uh, a paper here to
fll out howrmuch I would pay for it, and so I was the one without it.
I believe there was better bids put on it than that, but I was the one
that got it. And, uh, I had to 2A4A4440 pay for the tobacco I4rT
and then pay to move.
J: You mean you had to buy your tobacco barn?
L: My tobacco barn that was on that place, and the state weren't going to
use that tobacco barn. They could of let me a had it without me paying
for it. Even if they required me to .move it, I: think the state done me
a d$ty, deal on that place. I had to / and to move it.
J; And the state payed you for the rent and the barn?
L; No, they ain't pay me for the land and the barn. I mean the land.
J: What does your lawyer say about this?
L: Well he says he's going to get more. I don't know whether he is or not.
I ra into what they, uh, 4-^l $3200 a acre was what
they offered me for the land. And I got $5000 for the other.
J: And -uh, so you had to buy your tobacco barn back from the men, and uh--
move your tobacco barn.
L: Yeah, and pay for the movement of it. I had every bit of that to do.
J: And they still-and they haven't paid you for any of your land yet?
L: No, no. They ain't paid me for the land; they paid me $3200, but uh,
my lawyer says they'll have to pay more.
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J: Well, I think this seems to be a perfect exam o how Indian people, urn--
L: That's the way fteit treated. That's the way treated. They just,
uh, go ahead and tell them what they'll give them and expect them to
take it regardless of what he wants.
J: Now what about, un, this land you say you-sold for $5000 a acre. Was
that what they offered you in the Beginning or--
L: No, no, no. They offered me $2700.a acre, and we went and uh, had a
kind of a hearing, and uh, so I had so many men there to tell how
much the land was valued at and how much, uh, it was. And so they
had three commissioners and so these commissioners, all but one, they
gie. it to them--to the third one if they would take a bit less, they
would say a bit less than $5000 so that's what we compromised and paid them.
Jz So probably the same thing had happened wi:th:-the h-uf-
L: Yes, yes.. Now, you fiow- if they'd went ahead and paid me for that
land, I-wouldn't have had to hired a lawyer and give him part of it
and I just think that's wrong. The wrong way to do, but
then that's the way they do business.
L; I reckon /J a been an Indian, it would have been a white man
that had gotten his paid for.
J: Probably. Um, so um, this is the way, um, the uh, state authorities
have treated you as far as your land--
L: Yes, yes, as far as my land's concerned. I sold them the land cheap. I
sold them the land cheap, and then, um, I thought it was cheap for land
here, and uh, that's the way they done it. And it went out over i4
television, it went out over 4 radio, it went in the paper and every-
where--what I asked for the land. How much I charged for the land, and
I: didn't get a third of that.
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J: Uh, have you found that the, uh, the university treats the people in
the community like they should?
L: No, I ain't never found that. Not since they turned it over to the
university.
J: Do you think, um, the Indian people feel free to go out there like
they did?
L: Why no, no. I ain't been out there and ain't a going. I did go over
there to the, uh, hut for a divorce 4 divorce CLJCF_ W 1
and watched the fire burn and just sit there and prayed for the Lord
to save them nothing else. And they was
saved, but it was messed up on the front. But that was the number one
building. "Mai had people to tell that he'd lived there and searched it, and
t was all right.
J: What would you like to se 4/ 1/$ 49 ef ?'
L: Well, I think that he should try to help me 4 1A^
J: What would you like to see him do with 0\(t /f 4( ?
L: With Old Main, I want it saved if there any change in this world. I
just, on account of my daddy, what I seen my daddy do, I just hate to
see that Building tore down. This house here of mine is much older,
lots older, uh, than uh, that there Building is and it's just a frame
Building. And I lived C
J: Um-
L: That building a being a brick Building, I dontt see why in the world
ittd be torn down only just some people are wanting it done. And that
was no place to put a no how. I've been there many a times
and the train would come along and the man that is up making the coffee
had to stop and wait until the train got by. And now, like these goes
by, miles long, miles long. It ain't a mile long. It's miles long. I
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L: didn't ever have any 1OfTf6Win there. I didn't have to have any
school hardly in there.
J: Well, Governor Holshauser and the state, un, go about fixing on land, how
would you--what would you like to see it used for? Would you like to see
a museum
them use there? Would you like to see it built just like it was?
Or would you like to, ur, uh, what would you like to--do you have any
thoughts about what you'd like--
L: Well, if they'll just fix it back like Old Main was-
J: You mean the outside--the walls and--
L: Yeah, yeah. Well, they ain't much to do to the walls.
J; UK huh.
L: But if they'll fix it back. Now as far as them using it, I'm not
opposed to them using it if it's necessary, But I would loVe for them to
build it-'s 4S "I fksie^
J; eah Te h. huh.
L: Being my, daddy, a poor man and he--before he died---he died here with me--
and he come and sit on my front porch and he says ain't it a lot of difference
here now than it was when we built that--I mean bought that land and had that
building f$L ,T.
J: Would you have any interest in having a museum put--
L: Well, I'd be glad if they didn't have that.
J: Your main concern is to leave the building.
L: To leave the building there, fix the building up and leave it there.
The Indian folks bought that land. It weren't the white folks d they
bought that land and struggled to buy it, and I think it should belong
to the Indians.
J: Uh huh.
L: Now that's the way I feel about it.
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J: Yeah. Don't you think a lot of the other people in the community feel
the same way?
L: Oh yes. Hundreds and hundreds of them.
J: Um, Mrs. Lowry, um, .tell me something about, uh, the churches in the
community. Uh, have you always gone to churches If ) Baptist?
L: No, Iwent to New Hope--Jtaaa-for years, and so I was so close to
"-"___ C and I could get out and walk very easy, and so I moved my
membership to Wf! church in place of having to go so far.to up
here to Hope's to go to church.
J: Do you know--has there always been a church at New Hope?
L: A AA Oh Lord, yes. As far as I knew anything about it there's
been a church there.
J: Well, and uh, do you remember when _____ was built or--
L: Oh yeah. I remember when that was built. I remember well when it was
built A (r 6 was ____
J: Then after you moved here?
L: Oh yeah. I'd been here for years when they built ___ church.
J: What about some of the other churches around? You said Saint Ana is
an old church that's been there a long time?
L: It's been an old church, but I remember when it was put there. The first
old church that's put there. The first thing they done they had a 4 5Tt1
(C o and so they finally got .them a church built out there. And
now they've got this beautiful church as I want*to look at built there
in that--
J: What about the First Baptist? e
L: The Fi st Baptist. Well, now the old First Baptist, you know I used to
J: Uh huh.
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L: much, but uh, the old church was there whenever I got to going to
Pembroke, and I don't know how long it's been built, but iti there.
fArnc cf
J: It was built before you got ?A
L: Yes, it was there before I got 'Ntaea The old church.
J: Yeah. Now uh, the uh, white people who lived in Pembroke have some
churches. 'Have they always had a church in Pembroke?
L: Oh yeah. They been churches as long as I can remember in Pembroke--
the white--among the white churches.
J: Um, what about um, the uh, the--some of the other churches in the
community like eera Swamp or churches like that?
L: Well, ser Swamp was an old church. Old-Ba Swamp was an old church,
but still I can remember when it was built, Bear Swamp.
3: So evidently New Hope would be built--
L: New Hope is--was the oldest church that was around tlbfLt..t.'i
community.
J: And it was torn down in order to build--
L: Ih order to build that one that's built.
L: Uh huh. So they built a new building there.
J: Now when you went to school at New Hope, did--was it just children from
here and the Pembroke area or was it children come from way out around
L: No, they mostly went from around here. They finally built that school
in L and they went there and the Hope WAI --they built
their church--I mean their school over there and they went there, but
it was in Pembroke they all went to this school here at Pembroke.
3: What about the children down around ?' ? What did they do
about going to school?
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L: Well, they went, uh, finished, uh, you know, the seventh grade, at uh,
down there and they come up here and went to high school up here at
Pembroke.
J: Uh, what about the uh, Hope Well church?
L: The Hope Well church?
J: Uh huh. Was it an old church?
L: Well, it--the old church was an old church, but they built a new church
J: So it seems like the older things J1 4 h # f J "--
L: Well they--I think they still got that old church--
J: Old building.
L: Old building, yes.
J: Now, what about the post office? What--when you were a kid growing up,
where did you get your mail?
L: Uh, it was--
J: When you were staying at home, did you get it at Pate's or ,_____ ?
L: At Pate's--we C- i > Pate's. Pate's S .
J: Would uh--
L: There was no mail carriers that carried out when I was at home.
J: Uh huh--and--
L: Y had to go You got a letter you had to go'to
Ip / to get it--I meant, uh, Pate's--Pate's and get it.
J: Is that where the Pate's store burned?
L: Yeah, that is the same old building. That building--I hate to see it
go down, because that is the first store I ever went to in my life.
J: Pate's?
L: Was Pate's store--the first store that I ever went into in my life.
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J: When--when you-- I
L: It was what they called old store in Pembroke.
J: Uh huh.
L: I remember when that was standing. And then, uh, they would--some of
the Indians went and bought places and built stores there. W. M. Lowry
built a store down there. Mr. JtfeM g built a store down there--
right there in the same line did, urn, Pate's supply company's been Sl___
But I remember before any of that was started.
J: So uh, did uh, your r or--or who went to check the mail? Did
somebody go over there?
L: Well, you know there was so e of the older children would mostly go.
No, they didn't go Jg s' They didn't expect no mail.
J: Uh huh.
L: Back then we didn't get much mail. There weren't many letters sent.
J: Well, now, what about clothes? Did you come to town and buy clothes?
Did your mama make your clothes? Did you order your clothes out of the
catalog?
L: Oh ho. She done well to get them any way. I mean anyway she made what
I wore--always did.
J: Uh.
L: And I remember working in the field getting twenty-five cents a day and
I carried Wi With the other people, they got forty and
I only got twenty-five and I bought all my clothes. I bought them for the
winter-', I had bought them from the hope that I could pass with them
through the winder. You know, thet ain't like they was now; but then
they were clothes. I was pregnant, Uh, couldn't much when you had to
buy for fourteen children.
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J: What bout the winters, uh, back when you were a child and the winter
S Do you see any difference?
L: Oh honey yes. You know, we didn't have sufficient shoes the way them
snows they used to come. Well, they'd come and just stay on the ground
months and months and months. And uh, we didn't have clothes nor shoes
fitting for that weather, but we had to put up with it.
J: Did you have to walk to school in the-snow?
L: Yes mam, walked to school in the snow. I remember one time I got there
to the school house and the door was locked. Miss Eliza she
had the key and she hadn't got there and Mr. Angus -aSge hadn there
and Mr. Angus-- seg"Lo a ear or Lochie, he calls it. He had got
there and he had' built a fire and where he pulled me in at was the
cloak room window. And I got in there and got to getting warm and I
fried me a bacon. I could s then my hands were frozen. I had a hard
time going to school J too.
J: Now uh, you said that the winters were much colder and a lot more snow.
L: Yeah, yeah--a lot more snow than it do now, yeah.
J: Did school ever close down because of the snow?
L: No, I never stayed home on account of the snow. I waded through it and
it's mostly up to my knees. I never heard no tell of school being
closed on account of the snow. They went right on.
J: How about the churches? Did the churches ever close down--
L: No, no. They always had to have--that is up there at Hope--they always
had to have Sunday school and their preaching. They used to always hhve--
J: Did uh, when you were a child--can you remember the first time you ever
went on a trip or went out around the county?
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L: (laugh) I was married before I done that.
J: You was married?
L: I was married before I ever went 'o
J: You was married before you ever went & /t Vt
L: Yes--
J: Can you remember the first time you ever went to ?
L: Yes, mighty well. I went there on a one-horse wagon--me and my
husband went there on a one-horse wagon and his sister--we went
on a one-horse wagon.
J: b albusiness or shop a lot?
L: Well, business and to shop some.
J: What was Lumberton like?
L: Oh Lumberton was ,** it looked all right--I mean it was all right.
It is far different from what I had been used to. I thought I had been
somewhere when I got to Lumberton.
J: Can you remember the first time you ever went to the beach?
C?
L: Yeah, that was--I have and been married and had children
before I ever went to the beach. I thought I'd been somewhere then
End of Side 1-Tape LUM 73-A
LUM-73A Bridges
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Side 2-Here we go--
(What)
J: Do you like to do, uh, I just: for pleasurement?
L: Fishing.
J: Fishing--where do you like--
L: Fishing and more fishing.
J: Where do you like to fish at?
L: Well, I like to,uh, fish in the river, Lumber River or--but I like it
the beach--
better if-jI can sit down, and just fish all day, but uh, you know,
at the river I was apt to /i /, J 0 0 V1 and then I'm crippled
up with arthritis and I can't do much about getting around and so I
don't fish there like I used to. And I fished, uh, up at the recreation
place, uh, I uh, my son died--
J: You're talking about Lumbee Recreation?
L: Yeah. My son died and so uh, I never did join and uh, so I can't go
there now to fish. I'd just love to get down on that bank and fish some,
but I'm seventy-three going on seventy-three and so I can't fish at J
J: Don't they have certain iSthat old people y^""
L: Well, they did last year, but I ain't heard no tell of it now if they
has--if these for old people to fish. I ain't heard if they got any of
these for the old people. I don't know.
J: Uh, what kind of fish did you catch when you'd go to the beach?
L: Spots.
J: What kind of fish did you catch out at the river?
1,: th, what they called Robins and Perch and Cats, all sort of fish.
J: Have you always enjoyed fishing?
L: Always as since I got so I could do it, and that was after my husband died.
LUM-73A Bridges
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L: I didn't get to go but just a few times after I got married. I tell
you, we had so much work to do, clearing up this land and the farming
being until--I didn't go up--get to go up fishing much.
J: Was this woods 4f; 4tA when you Z 0.* At
out
L: Oh yeah, right down the other side of that drive out there from there
back were woods.
J: Were there 1nk 6.
L: Yeah, i yeah, all of that was woods and we cleared it up. I
never will forget the first time we ever seen an airplane on the ground
was, uh, it come down here from, --below or just before you got to
/Ym f4ec- It come down there Jib & t
was --when it went along I was out there right back out there
in that field there next to them buildings-picking up roots that were
gunned over, you know. I was out there picking up roots. My husband
left the next morning to go to town, and when he come back he had been
to see the airplane go up.
J: Uh huh.
L: And I didn't get to go.
J: Yeah. Can you remember the first time you saw an airplane?
L: Yes am. I--well, the first time I ever seen is 1917- no--Af 1918--the
last of 1918 there was two flew by and uh, that was just before my oldest
child was born, add I heard someone say, "Don't call her." They thought
it'd scare me, and I--when they said that, I come out to see what it was.
It was two airplanes a going along. Them was little bitty--theye ^ t4w V
big planes. They were little.
J: Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh, you had, uh, how many children?
L: I had six. I had three that lived and three that died and it was in 1918
I had one _/ flu and it died and then my two last ones died and
I
LUM-73A Bridges
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L: I really screamed.
J: What happened to those?
L: Well, they were born dead, and uh, I, uh, had, uh, three.that lived
and so now I've only got one.
J: And what were their names?
L: Uh, Cedy he died here at this place--gee, it was a year ago or two years
IA4 4 two years and uh, Larky, she was the baby, she died about
five years ago. She was teaching school and got sick and died. So I
ended up with one and that's ) wife, Bertha.
J: Her name's Bertha?
L: Bertha.
J: Uh, so you had--how old was your child that died with the flu?
L: Well, he was born that morning and he died that night.
J: Did you have the flu?
L: Yes, Lord, yeah, and that was the only time I ever thought I was going
to die.
J: And you had the flu when it was born?
L: In 1918, uh huh.
J: Was there an epidemic around?
L: Oh yes, oh, you heard tell of people dying around here and they're
finding them dead. They'd been dead for daysA ah!
J: What'did you do about doctors?
L: Well, uh, I got three doctors--three different doctors before I found
one that would say he would come and '-.K
J: You mean come to the house?
L: Come to the house. That was, uh, Dr. Harris at A_ C And so
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L: he come until I got '04 but the baby died. And then the next
he lived three months and it was blind all of the time and weren't well
and so it was took sick and died right then and then the baby one was
born dead.
J: Uh, when you were, uh, were all your children born at home?
L: Yes mam. Never had wanted to go--I never went to the hospital
J: Did you ever have a midwife?
L: Yes mam.
J: Pid you #/WidugW k- a
L: Midwife. Miss AggieT Vti, iss, uh *WLochlear was my doctor.
Now whenever the baby girl was born, we ( ) so I
weren't getting along good and so my mother took my husband to go get
the doctor, and so we went and got him and that is the first doctor I
ever had with the exception I hadyphoid fever and I went to Maxton
and when I got up there it was Dr. leIMc lellan, and he told my
husband, he said you done brought her up here with typhoid fever, get
her back as q ick as you can and don't bring her no more, I'll come.
So he come A
J: You were married at the time you had it?
L: Oh yeah.
J: It was their epidemic that did it that time?
L: Well--
J: What do you expect? When was that?
L: there was a lot of folks--alot of folks had it.
3: Do you remember when that was?
L: No, I don't just exactly remember but I did have, uh, just two children.
J: Uh huh.
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L: Whenever I had that.
J: So it was sort of between what Le years?
L: It was between & d o.
j: ^' 4e A I_____
L: It was--it was between 1918 and 1922 I had the flu. I don't remember
which one of them years it was, but I had the--
J: The typhoid fever.
L: Yeah, the typhoid fever.
J: Did a lot of people have it at that time? Did many people die or--
L: Lots of them died.
J: was it sort of an epidemic?
L: Well, it was sort of an epidemic around here but, uh, I
happened to live.
J: How long did you stay sick?
L: With the typhoid fever? Oh, they quarantined the house up.about two
or three weeks.
J: Who quarantined ?
L: The doctor.
J: Uh, and uh, did you have anybody ? ?_____
L: Well, *C 4f/ come. Let him come. People was scared of it.
Uh, my husband's mother would come in and my husband'-s sister, and uh,
my mother come some, but you know people's scared of typhoid fever
Snohow and I caught
it and I didn't know '/ ll ', .
J: Yeah.
L: So I said I'd never be that scared of a disease again, i
J: What about, uh, uh, medical attention, uh, did uh, so for a
long time she went to a doctor--what about when your children were growing up?
LUM-73A Bridges
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J: Did, uh, did you carry them to the doctor?
L: Oh yeah, I carried them to the doctor:
J: What about vaccinations, did, uh,--
L: Well, I always had them vaccinated.
J: Did you ever have any?
L: What?
J: Vaccinations.
L: No. I didn't have any.
J: And at the time when your children were brought up, could you go to the
county health department to get vaccinations?
L: If-- if I--if I did, I didn't go. I don't think-I _kknow 4_ _C
J: You got them for school?
L: Uh, when they started school, they'd get them out there--their shots.
3: Oh .
L: Uh huh.
J: Now, when your children started school, where did they go to school?
L: Pembroke Grade School.
J: At that time they had built that school?
L: Yes, they built it--that was the first year they built it--thelfirst day
that she went to school--I mean she went to school there the first day.
J: Well that was in about 19_MaM? So that was built about--around 1923?
L: Uh huh, yeah.
J: And it was being built about the same time Old Main was being built?
L: nMmMi--
J: Do you remember that? Was that right?
L: It was built before Old Main was built.
J: The grade school?
L: Uh huh.
LUM-73A Bridges
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J: Uh huh. Well, that would be about right then if it was AA /Y'_
about 1923.
L: Uh huh.
J: Uh, Mrs. Lowry, could you, uh, tell me about what they called the, uh,
county commencement? Where was it held?
L: They all called it the school breaking.
J: The school breaking?
L: Yeah,
J: Well, the school breaking weren't when all the people in the county
were involved. Where was it held at?
L: Well, that was done out here at the grade school. All from different--
Um, this county commencement they had, they met at the college.
J: At Old Main.
L: Old Main.
J: Uh huh.
L: But it weren't the Old Main then, it was the other building.
J: Yes, uh huh.
L: Uh, they all met there, and they marched through Pembroke. They was
from Saddletree. They was from, uh, Hope Well. They was from, uh,
Union Chapel. All of the schools, you know, that was in the county.
J: Uh huh.
L: They come and marched, and had a big day that day. 41 Q/t 447
people cooked and carried something to eat es __ _C and
everything. And we had a ball that day-i thought it was.
4; A4R <- .what -uhrwha aboutwhat did your children wear?
M -W41, they had to have white--what they called midiblouses. It was
4 skirt and a top went over it, and uh, Mr. McCormick ordered the
qathr-whlte cloth--and had it down there and everybody got their--
LUM-73A Bridges
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L: they bought--they weren't but three girls that was out there with
colored clothes on.
J: Uh huh.
L: And the rest of them had on these white clothes, but they bought the
cloth down there and made--had them made. They were midiblouses made
for them to wear a white skirt and uh, sort of these LAS --I
mean these here tops that they'd wear.
J: Yeah.
L: They'd come over their skirt like that.
J: What did the boys wear?
L: They wore white pants and uh, you know, most any colored shirt. They
were supposed to wear a white shirt, but you know everybody couldn't do
that--couldn't buy t ^
J: And did you have a program that day?
L: Yeah, we had a program--had a program.
J: And uh, was--is this something that you see went on after that and they
had it about every year?
L: No, the only time, the only time that I ever seen it was that time.
J: And they marched through Pembroke--all the children?
L: Marched--yeah--marched through Pembroke and come back, and uh, so they
had dinner then when we got back there. Dinner was placed on a big long
table and everybody brought something, and it was put on there and everybody
went to the table and ate. They brought tt0i food "J .
J: '-h, Mrs, Lowry, in the past years here in 4Ol iM County, uh, hor do you
think Indian people have been treated?
t; Well, %llU tell you, they ain't been treated too good, and now, like it is
now) you are-don't very often see a Indian's name. It's might seldom you
ever see one that's named GtL 7/ i .
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J: What about over at the county in general, can you tell that Indian people
are making any progress?
L: Oh yeah, they're making progress. They're making it anyhow lik they've
started all the time. You know when they built, uh,4 Emar.
J: Uh huh.
L: And bought the land and built Normal, you know there's a tiny progress
then.
J: Uh huh.
L: And they've been trying to do ever since.
J: Um, do you think the, uh, Lumbee Indians in Robftson County are people
that, uh, have drive and self determination?
L: Yes mam, yes mam. The Indian people, the Lumbee Indians, have worked
hard to get things just like they've gotten to today. They worked hard.
I know I let them have the land. I let the college have, oh, I don't know
how many acres of land, and I sold-the-grade school their land that they've
got, They got four acres.
J: Uh huh.
L: And then I sold them some more since then to make, you know, room.
J: Yeah, uh huh.
L: For more buildings. I've sold the grade school all they've got and I
sold the bigger part of where this other school's at. These other buildings.
J: Yeah. Uh huh. What about, um,--
L: These two big dormitories out here or three. Is it two or three out there?
J: Three.
L: Well, I--that--I sold them that land for them buildings. Mr. _____
Lowry sold, uh, highs school out there. The land to put his building--I
mean to put that building out there, but I'm sold the most of what the
college has got.
LU4-73A Bridges
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J: What about, uh, Indian people, um, can you, uh, when you were growing up
as a child, were there places you couldn't go into and buy things?
L: Well, now, I'll have to tell the truth. I never was turned down nowhere
I went.
J: Uh huh.
L: But the--the trouble about it, I didn't go so much.
3: Yeah.
L: And they didn't know what I was. They didn't know whether I was a white
or an Indian and so I always got by.
J; Uh huh.
L: Now that's one thing. I went to Red Spring, you know, they weren't
supposed to let them have t l\-14 in the drug store.
3: Yeah.
L: Well, I went in there and I just went on and called for it, and I got it.
J: Uh huh.
L: Well, I've been to Lumberton and never been turned down at no place
S 1_in the town of Lumberton. Of course, now you know I didn't go to
the theatres and stuff like that.
J; Right.
L: But, uh, anywhere--any restaurant I ever went into, I was never turned down)
but they couldn't guess me.
J: TJh huh.
L: But. vl reckon if they'd found et T r11 M -
of the.
J: Yeah, Um, what are some things you remember hearing your parents tell or
talk 4 bou when thy were a child. De you remember hearing them tell any
S Q ries s .......
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L: Oh yeah, we heard a lot whether if it was all true or not. I heard my
grandmother talk about the outlaws when they were here.
J: Uh huh.
L: And I heard my--one of my great aunts talk about the outlaws when they
were here. I R L
J: ATe you talking about _1 '_______ ?
L: t Ar Lowry, yeah. And I heard my daddy say that, uh, Henry
Bear and his men come to their house one night and they wanted them to go
with him to another house and he said that Henry aer was the one that
carried him in his arms. He was lIh #I you know, c_ _v_
J: 'Uh huh. Uh huh.
L: /kW4 ?jkf^ V
J: Yeah.
L: Yeah, I'm heard that. I'm heard about that.
3: And uh, how do most of the people feel about nf u T Lowry?
L: Well, they thought that he was treated wrong. You know if somebody
61,0 L- out there and kill your daddy and your brother and uh,
leave them that--make them dig a hole to put you in, and then they
dig--I mean when you got that hole done, they backed you up there and
shot you down in there and buried you, wouldn't yg--how h would you feel?
3: Uh huh. Now, do you think most people feel that "Lowry, uh,
was justified in what he done?
L: Yes, I believe everybody--most all the people thought that he was justified
in some of the things that he done.
J: Do you think he was a friend to the Indian people when--
L: Oh yeah, he was a friend to the Indians, yeah.
J: Do you think he made the difference--
L: According to what I've been told.
LUM-73A Bridges
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J: Do you think he made the difference in the way Indian people are treated
around here now?
L: Why yes, yes. He made the difference. They was a lot of white folks
that joined in with him.
J: What, um, uh, was your parents born here inoebieaa. County?
L: Yes. My parents were buried right here inlRob son County--I mean
e-
born right here in Roblson County.
J: Did you draw social security, Mrs. Lowry?
L: Yes, I draw some social security. I didn't pay in much, and I'm thankful
for what I'm getting.
J: Uh, have you been drawing it since you--
L: Sixty-two, right after I was sixty-two, I put in for it. l-
1^k I might not live to sixty-five to draw it.
J: Uh huh.
L: So uh, I called and went to drawing in when I was sixty-two.
J: Did your daddy ever go?
L: No, no.
J: Just then recently that, uh, farmers could draw it.
L: Uh huh, yeah.
J: Do you think, uh, do you think this is good?
L: What, the social security? Yes, I think it's good. It--now, take myself,
I didn't go in paying as much as I could have paid in. If I had of, why,
I'd have been a setting myself up good withgetting that check, but I
just paid in what I had to pay in and so I didn't get Pmuch, but it's`
still keeps popping up a little bit.
3: TMh huh, IUh, how do you feel about, um, the Indian people, do you think,
uh, that the government owes Indian people anything?
L: Yeah.
LUM-73A Bridges
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J: Do you think a lot of Indian people have lost their land here in
Rohb#son County because the, uh, white man has come in and took over?
L: Well, there's some of them is, and then there's some of them, I'm
going to be frank with you, there's some of them that didn't do what
they should have done. I helped my tVS44 and when my husband died
and left me, if I'd had been--my debtors would have come in a d close
me out, I wouldn't kpWj uat 4 C e ej 'h W ^
3J: Uh huh.
L: But I went ahead, I done li .; I done 1h lout S&m is
and closed it until I got my debts paid, and now that's my trouble now.
There too many wanting to sell me stuff.
3: Uh huh.
L: Uh, thinking I got money, but I ain't got much money, but
if I take the notion for anything to eat or take a notion for anything
to wear, I can get it.
J: Uh huh.
L: But I'm never been person to throw stuff away. I always keep it, and
try to keep it. And I was told by some of the head men in Pembroke that
if I paid for this place I should have a clear deed made--to make it
right to myself, and uh, I didn't do that. I went ahead and paid the
debt off, and uh, I want it left for my children, of course, the state
keeps a coming in and taking it. I don't know where I'll--I don't
know where I'll have to get some more tj whether I can get any
more. I'd like to stay here my lifetime, but if they keep on, why they'll
have part of everything that we had here during my husband's life.
A/_ K_ jt_n iust a little bit over the fifteen acres that is
left, but I have bought some. I have bought some that is right joining.
3: Uh huh, What do you do about your farm now, Mrs. Lowry?
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 37-
L: Well, I have to have it, uh, I got a man--ur, my son, you know as 'long
as he is here, he'll work the farm.
J: Uh huh.
L: And my son-in-law well, he worked the farm. Well, my son died. See my
son-in-law got disabled so I got one man that's working it all.
J: How much tobacco do you have?
L: I got right near five acres of tobacco.
J: And what else do you plant -- ?
L: Soybeans and corn
J: Do you still have a garden?
L: Yes, I have a garden, but I'm got disabled to work that. I may have to
start doing the stuff cause they haven't planted, and I just have to
give out _____ sit down, and I ain't been moving since.
J: Now, um, do you, um, grow hogs or cows?
L: No, I don't have no hogs nor no cows. I got chickens.
J: Uh huh, and--
L: I tried to raise me some chickens so, uh--
J: Enough to eat r o- or what?
L: Well, no I ain't sold a dozen eggs. I e 440 ti g w.
SL, uh, sold them 1 Sd4 and I'm going to give them to my
people. J 1U
J: Uh huh. Uh--
L: I want you to get your dozen before you leave today.
J: Okay, I'm sure going to do that. What about, uh, what about the, uh, you
said you felt like, uh, Indian people didn't hoi onto their land. Do
you feel like there were a lot of Indian people that lost land, uh, really
to) Do you think they, uh, took a lot of land from
Indian people?
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 38
L: Yeah, they got some from them, but now they owed them. They should have
tried to have paid them some way or another. Now I know I owed them
in the feed supply company--owed them a big bill.
J: Uh huh.
L: And I paid every cent that I owed them, but it took will power and it
took me going leaknrg for things that I wanted to eat, and it took
things for me to, uh, clothes to wear. I didn't wear clothes LfAJ^ r
A|W Well, in fact, I ZVI J J 4t-M a whole big pile of
clothes fW [ Al J 44t4!AAtbig pile of clothes nohow
but I can, if I take the notion to go C4t J0f j 4^^ to put on.
J: What about, uh, dental care, Mrs. Lowry, uh, when, uh, you were
growing up as a child and if you had a toothache, uh, who pulled it out?
L: A yIr t Lowry. She was a midwife.
J: So, uh, you went to her--
L: I didn't go to no doctor. I never went to a doctor in my life before
or after I was married. I never went to a doctor in my life. The
doctor didn't--
J: How would bhe pull your teeth?
L: With a pair of pliers.
J: Did she give you anything to kill the pain.
L: And she pulled them, too. Why honey no, no. We didn't have nothing to
kill the pain. It is pulled out and that is it.
J: And uh, what were some of those things she'd do?
L: Oh, she'd went around just as same as any doctor you ever seen. She'd
go far and near, uh, people'd come and ask her-to go. She'd doctor some
pneumonia or anything they asked her.
J: What--did she carry a bag with her and stuff?
L: Uh, well, she might have carried a little something, but it weren't much.
4LUT-73A Bridges
Page 39
J: What kind of medicines? How would she doctor people? What kind of
medicines?
L: Oh, grease or mix up lard and stuff. The doctor /(d A f
different stuff X4LA --
J: Would she rub it on you or--
L: Yeah, rub it on you, all over you. But as it happened, I never did have
no bad cold or anything of that sort <6/' a doctor jV4 X v but
uh, I'm seen that doctor, the other children. The baby boy, why, she
come there and stayed nights, uh, a doctor eC.K4 L &i-A.
three times A/ 1; the baby.
J: Uh huh.
L: But she was he main door
J: So she di -dL* ee were ?
L: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Indians.
J: You mentioned that you went to a beach on the car, uh, where did the
Indian people buy cars at? Was that the first car you ever had?
L: Yeah, that was the first one we ever had.
J: Where did you go to buy it?
L: Uh, we bought it at Dillon, Dillon, South Carolina. It is the--
J: How did you go down there to buy it?
L: Uh, he got somebody to go in after it, uh, ] nd)he went and got it.
J: Did your daddy ever have a--own a car?
L: Huh?
J: Did your daddy ever own a car?
LT No, no, He never owned a car in his life.
S\Wha, 4't t, i, today, m, can you tell any difference in the Indian
people's demanding their rights or becoming more aware of how they've
been treated? Can you tell where Indian people are becoming more outspoken
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 40
J: or beginning to progress in that way?
L: Yeah, there are some of them. I think they are going the right way, but
there are some of them, it seems to me, that they are going the wrong way.
J: Uh huh.
L: You know we's all ready __I___ we're supposed to be one Indian crowd
and now their wanting to bring in other names.
J: Uh huh.
L: I like the Lumbee name.
J: You're satisfied with the Lumbee name?
L: I'm satisfied with the Lumbee name.
J: Can you remember, um, when they voted on the Lumbee name or when they
got that?
L: Yes, yes.
J: What do you remember about that? Did you vote?
L: No, I didn't vote. I'll tell you, it seemed like Mr. Lowry
went and got that name. Well, I had--we had never had those 1 aIK"t&
J: Uh huh.
L: And so I was glad to have that name, especially being recognized at
Raleigh.
J: Uh huh.
L: And I was glad of that, and uh, so I'm willing--I'm willing to take the
Lumbee--don't want to be nothing else but a Lumbee.
J: Uh huh.
L: And so VI' satisfied with that name. If we can keep that, why we'll
1)r a,4 )Vgktg,
3; Jo you think most of the people are satisfied with that name?
L: Yes, the most around Pembroke and around is satisfied with that name.
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J: Uh, dd you ever hear of the, uh, LumberRiver called-Q( WaVi W*River?
L: Tba's a River, that's what is was called.
J: When you were a child is that what it was called?
L: When I was a child that was--first--when I first remembered it they
called it Drowning Creek.
J: Drowning Creek.
L: And then they went and called it'Lmib+a River so it's been Lumbee River
ever since.
J: Do you, uh, Drowning Creek--remember why they called it Drowning Creek.
L: I couldn't tell you why they called it that. There was just a lot of
people, uh, drowned in it. You know they used to float logs down, uh,
that river.
J: Uh huh. J
L: And float on them--float on together and nail, uh, boards on
then put them on a raft and carry them.to--I reckon they carried them
to Lumberton or somewhere way down there. I don't know where they
carried them to, but I remember being at the river and seeing just
loads of them and loads of them on that river--going down that river.
J: Did, uh, did you ever go there swimming?
L: The river?
J: Uh huh.
L: Lord yeah. I could swim up the river and down the river, across _4_ -
1 V but I bet if I was to fall in down there I don't know whether
I could swim the length or not. It's been fifty some years since I
went to the river to swim.
J3 Yeah, uh, what about J_ church? Has it, uh, it's an
old church--has it been there a long time?
L: Well, you know they built a new one now--
LUM-73A Bridges
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J: Yeah.
L: But now that--that was as long as I can remember _f_
church, it was there. But they built another church now.
3: Uh, at New Hopets, did you always--who were some of the preachers that
you had there as a child. Do you remember any of the names?
L: Well, Mr. Henry Lowry and, oh there was several of them
There was several of them preaching C J
3: .th huh. But most of them--all of them were Indian preachers?
T:; Indian preachers, yes. There ( white preacher.
3: That's, uh, part of the, uh, methodist church now, isn't it?
L: Yeah, uh huh.
J: And when you started coming to I was it a Baptist church?
L: .t is a Baptist church.
J: In the beginning?
L: It was a building that was built, you know, uh, on (d dcme 4
J: Yeah, that's what I was asking you about. Can you remember when that
orphanage was built?
L: Oh gracious. I was staying here when / 4/e -h ;f { C>
4W/ -f4p_ p Arh that was built---that wooden building.
J3 Yeah, Can you--uh, what was the purpose for building that orphanage
L: Well, they, uh, for taking care of Indian children, but now they all
goes there. I don't--I don't know whether they any black or not but I
know there are white.
J: Uh huh. Uh huh.
L: They all--
LUM-73A Bridges
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J: It was turned over to the Baptists--
L: Association.
J: Association.
L: Uh huh.
J: But back when it was first built, uh, was there not a, um, gift of land
or something?
L: Yeah, them was the one give that land down there--the Indians, and so
they deeded it to the Baptist Association. So the Baptists took it over
and they built that church--that church--I mean that orphan home down
there. that
J: Who sort of was responsible for giving S /so that there
would be a place for the Indian children that didn't have any parents?
Where did--what happened to Indian children before then?
L: Well, they just run around.
J: Stayed with some of their people-or something ** .
L: Yeah, there was no place to put them.
3: Uh huh.
L: And so they begun to carry them off, you know, and put them 80) *
Or other places that they have.
J: Yeah.
L: And so they built this one down here and so whenever the school got
h f and everything--I mean the school 90 /t why theyJO o0 0 a
built that orphanage.
J: Uh huh.
L: And so they got to taking white and Indian. I don't know whether they
got any colored or what IOO "Y .
3: Uh, then, um, who--who was the--who looked after it after it was first
built? Do you remember?
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 44 1rQ
L: Well, uh, Mr. and there was Mr. Underwood-=hd stayedrthere
for a time. M __A __ stayed there until he got old and
Mr. Henderson; he was the first one to come there. He stayed there and
then, uh, then the others come in after he did.
J: Were they white people?
L: Which?
J: The people you are talking about.
L: Yeah, yeah.
J: And.who paid them? ,How did they get paid?
L: Well, they got it out of the--
3: People?
L: 6T -in Et f1 churches. well, they got it that way.
They did some fund raising fV OY .
J: For money?
L: Uh huh, among the churches / /4 S.
J: Now, uh, later on, though, it was turned over to the Baptists.,
L: Baptist Association. 6 i, 4 Ai4e 17 .
J: What about e_'CrO church? Did, uh, have they always belonged to the
Baptist Association?
L: What-- e re.L ?
J: Uh huh.
L: Yeah. Well, you know, uh, that building, I think, was built, uh, after,
you know, for building the train and all in it. All--
j: A 6n5 Cu I+ re?
L: No, it was the, you know, ____ __ all of them.
J: Yeah, uh huh. -
L: All the churches, Baptist churches, in the "I Association.
J: Uh huh.
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 45
L: And uh, so they got it as church. And so the association--T mean the
Association finally give b & so many acres there and deeded it to
them for a church. And so it belonged to the Baptist Association.
J: What about First Methodist Church? Has it' been there long?.,
L: Well, not too long. The First Methodist Church ain't been there too many
years C .
J: Uh huh. But was there another building there before that one was built?
L: No, no. Uh uh, no.
J: All right. Do you know anything about how that church was bu l'/ ?
L: Well, no, I don't know too much about the Methodist Church. I know Mr.
Fuller preached there for years and years.
J: Uh huh.
L: And then they went to getting white preachers /6 w
I don't know too much about 444 A.
J: Do you remember, uh, when you first moved here? Did you have a mail
carrier or did you have to go to Pembroke and get your mail?
L: Well, we always had a mail carrier.
J: Ever since you moved here?
L: ell, pretty well. He'd come in -Mr. o 4/.
_4, _d and his girl run that mail route for years until ever they
sold out and moved from here.
J: Uh huh.
L: Well, uh, Mr. F er c, 1 w ^ c.-
J: j. h F, "
L: DF .
J: Uh huh. Now--
L: s-nd then now Cleo Maynard got it.
J: Did Mr. Cleo become mail carrier right after Mr. D ,. ?
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 46
L: Yeah, uh huh.
J: And he's been mail carrier ever since?
L: Yeah, uh huh.
J: So there's only been three since you moved here?
L: Three that I can remember ___ they put on this route,3oB.
J: Yeah, uh huh.
L: But, uh, Cleo carried all of the mail until here just a few years ago
he got put on another route.
J: What about the town of Pembroke, uh, how long have they--have. .aJ-i.r1
had a mayor at Pembroke? Do you remember?
L: No, I don't remember.
J: You don't remember anything about that?
L: No, it's been just here in the last--not too long ago we got a mayor in
Pembroke.
J: That you started having a mayor in Pembroke.
L: Uh huh.
J: Do you remember who was--it was--how far back can you remember? Who was
one of the first ones you remember?
L: ,... / I thought)I knew Sonny was on there for a long time.
J: You're talking about Sonny enrne.
L: Sonny @mrThr, _____* erti
J: Uh huh.
L: And then / 4 Clarence, he was on it, and--
J: He was before Sonny?
L; Yes, he was before Sonny__________
^5 ^ Sonny was before--
T: But qh, they kept changing ri .
Ja: h huh. So, uh, it's always sort of been under control the ba I.
LUM-73A Bridges
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L: Uh huh. Uh huh.
J: It's always been tm Indian# ) What do, uh, back long years
ago, the uh, whites that lived in Pembroke--what did they do? Did they
usually own businesses or--
L: Well, you see--
J: How did they end up in Pembroke in the first place?
L: Well, you see the Pate's Supply Company--I done forgot what they called
it at first--Pate's Supply--they called it Pate's Supply aC fJ(f ?
It's had several names.
J: Uh huh.
L: It is come through, seem like, years, uh--
J: Uh huh.
L: Started this business that he had. When the bank--I reckon they got
Ar* 0 from the bank, yes.
J: So the McCormick's have always--were living in Pembroke--
L: Mr. Archie McCormick is been there ever since I was a little child.
J: Uh huh.
L: He did have a store there, and he runned it until not too many years
before he died so that's been 4 // 14 E q ._ rfo
Ss store Mr. Bruce--and Bruce, he run the store there
pretty well as long as he lived. That's s M I can remember.
That's where the post office is. Right there 0 e( V4C had a store
J: Did--
L: Mr. McCormick had a store and W. M. Lowry had a store and __
0 ""_d Mr.
""_4 had a store when I first remember going to town. That was
about the most that we seen there.
J: Has it always been called Pembroke since you can remember or did it have
another name?
LU1-73A Bridges
Page 48
L: Yes, yes mam.
J: Do you know why it was named Pembroke?
L: No, I don't remember, but it's always been Pembroke.
J: Have you ever heard it called Scuffletown?
Set red
L: Scuffletown, yeah. I head, uh, the older folks tell about it-f
used to be i# Scuffletown.
J: Was that Pembroke that they celled-Scuffletown?
L: Yeah, Scuffletown, yeah. Now I--it's been called Pembroke ever since I
remember, but I'm heard my grandparents talk about it being Scuffletown.
J: Well, Mrs. Lowry, I've enjoyed talking to you. Is there, uh, anything
else, that, uh, you'd like to add about any of the, uh--that you'd like
to go down in history, uh, that you had to say about the Lumbee Indians?
Is there anything else that you would like to--
L: Well, I wish they'd get it straightened out. I wished they'd get all of
it straightened out, give us the Lumbee name, give us--build--fix our
building back. I'm not-ageaEst white folks now--coming in there. Don't
get me wrong.
J: Uh huh.
L: I'm not war that, but I want them to go through the Indians. /2t .
J: Uh huh.
L: But they were before the white man ever even come here.
J: Uh huh.
L: I heard a man call over television the other day, and he said asZ:SE as
he was concerned he was from the Congress or something. I forgot whether
he was from South Carolina or what, but I heard him on the television.
And he said as-f as the black folks, he called them colored folks,
J: Uh huh.
L: He said as =e as they was concerned, they brought them here as slaves
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 49
L: and they'd slave for them. And they had to see after them, but now he
never told a thing about who was found here whenever he come here.
J: Uh huh.
L: He didn't tell that the Indians was first here, and I think the Indians
was first here and I think ought to have first choice.
J: Uh huh.
L: Don't you feel that way?
3: /TI l ..I do feel that way. Right, I sure do.
L: Yes mam. I feel that way. Now, I'm not against white folks, because the
white folks has always treated me good. Now I'll have to say that.
J: Uh huh.
L: To their back or to their face. I was never mistreated by them, but I
know_-hrraB-l--people that was.
J: Uh huh.
L: Why, T have a son-in-law that's living up here at, uh, Red Springs, and he
asked for a coca cola, and didn't seI/ l Co e- And he went on
down- and he sent his son back there. That is my grandson, and so
he got it. And he went back and asked them, "How was it that they let his
son get it, and then'wouldn't let hit 'get it?"
J3 What do you--what do you contribute that to?
L: Well, I just contribute it for the lack of since of it.
3: Uh huh, but they couldn't tell that, could they?
L: No, hey couldn't tell. They couldn't tell him why it was. When he asked
him/that, he 1M LAJI **J
J; Th huh.
^tE-(jlo A "' your j)
L: &II-.V"_______ _hat is the way nnigger takes that.
3: Yeah. Well, they couldn't tell, um--
L: They couldn't tell about him. Well, he went into Pate's Supply Company
LUM-73A Bridges
Page 50
L: and had him with him one day, and uh, Mr. Bracy, uh, he said he noticed
he kept watching the child, kept a watching him, and so he finally asked
him whose child was that. And he told him it was his. He said /1 6/40-gei
tdek we've got the advantage over the white folks. We can have Indians
O7 white children.
J: Uh huh.
L: And then he said he was thinking the child would be a white child and
was wondering why he was, uh, uh, following him around.
3: Uh huh.
L: And so he asked the question and he told him. He said the Indians got
the advantage over your white folks. We can have white or Indian.
3: Uh huh. Do you think, uh, do you think most Indian people, uh, are
willing to accept white people or do you think they're prejudiced against
them.
End of Side 2-Tape LUM-73A
*Because Mrs. Lowry and the interviewer both had the same last initial, the
interviewer was labeled "J."
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