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Title: Interview with Col. Frederick Weber (March 22, 1973)
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Title: Interview with Col. Frederick Weber (March 22, 1973)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: March 22, 1973
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
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Bibliographic ID: UF00007051
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 61A

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
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and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
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1mm





LUM 61AB

INTERVIEWEE: Col. Frederick Weber

Interviewer: Marilyn Taylor

March 22, 1973

I: My name is Marilyn Taylor. I am recording for the Doris Duke Foundation

for the American Indian Oral history Program, under the auspices of the

University of Florida. Dr. Samuel Proctor is director. Today is

March 21$).22nd, excuse me, 1973. Today I have in my home at College

Terrace with me is Colonel Weber who has so kindly consented. .such

a short notice to give us an interview and, uh, we are grateful that

he has made this decision because as we go along I'm sure you'll find

him to be a very interesting interviewee and an interesting person as

we do here in the Pembroke area Mr. Weber, excuse me... ou prefer,

I think, to be called Colonel Weber is this not right? Would you give

us your full name. .you full given name so to speak and tell us something

about this Colonel Weber Do you prefer we -- around the college

and this position you held over there which we will get into later on

that normally you refer to as Colonel Weber and this suggests something

in the military. Tell us something about this.

S: Well, I've put over 30 years in the service. in the army. .and I'm

reminded when we were stationed in the Phillipines with the military

advisory group. Admiral Sturance was the amba esador to the Phillipines

and we asked him if he preferred to be called ambassador or admiral and

he said well, it took me..40 years to get to be an admiral so that's

really my preference. Actually, I suppose just as a thought, uh, when






2



a doctor retires you still call him a doctor I guess and uh, I was on

active duty as a colonel for 18 years so I feel a lot more natural when

they say that but there is no law requiring it. And of course there are

some groups like I belong to a retired military association which has

a chapter in-Fdiatvte and it is expanding around the state and we don't

use our rank in that case because. .uh .. .everybody from sergeants on

up so we just make a business of trying not t be rank conscious. Of

course, you work real hard for it so sometimes you appreciate being called

that.

I: e .well, I can certainly see what you mean but it seems even. .uh.

colonel is certainly a rank to be proud of but even in the lower ranks

perhaps, uh, you hear it quite often and I often wondered and never really--

you know these questions we have that never seemed important enough to

really get around to having the opportunity of asking someone. Uh, tell

us something about Colonel Weber as a young man, uh, as he goes into

service--some of our background--uh, your education before service. For

instance, let's start with. .uh. how many children were in your family f4

S: Just one brother and myself. He was two years younger than I.

I: Uh, um. And where do you call home originally?

S: We were born in Michigan.

I: Michigan.

S: My father came to the Middlewest from Germany by way of Canada

and Montana. Her had been already had been a captain in the German army

as a young man of 22 or 23. And. .so he was interested in the military

service. He fought in the Spanish-American war, but then reverted to

civilian life.

I: Uh, hum.







3



S: And we had a natural interest in military service. mother died when I

was six and my father when I was sixteen so it's sort of by accident that

we got back into the military service or into the military life. A man
f/
tok me on as a protege in our hometown of Kalamazoo, Michigan. And in-

terested me in trying to go to West Point which I was glad to do. My

father's family traced back military relatives, ^ -------- -all the

way to the Crusades. And then on my mother's side, however, they come


directly from the English. She was one of the last of the Williards.

She was a Williard anyway. And there was a Francis and Emma Williard

who were leading activists-in the women's advancement in America.

I: Um, huh.

S: They started, uh, girls' schools in New England. you know, that was a

starter. And of course later on, others carried on and they finally

go to have the vote and a few other things which approximated equality.

I: Well, women's lib has been around for quite a while, hasn't it?

S: Yes, it certainly have. .has and we've always taken a natural interest

it.

I: Uh, hum.

S: So all the. and I guess there's a certain amountof fate involved in it

too. therds my wife. Well, when I went to West Point I was told that the.

uh, when you went into the military service you had a .a secure form of

existence during wars.

I: Uh, hum.

S: But you never would get rich--you gave up the o portunity of being a
rej j re Ur
millionaire but there was a satisfactory system and my wife came from a
A
family where the women were very strong-minded. And, of course, we. .

when you're dealing with generalities you'll sometimes make mistakes, but







4



we have, uh, there are a number of very resourceful women in my wife's

background and she continued along of the mold of her predecessors.

I: Uh, hum. How does this affect p' ----------------point of view uh,

do you ----------- --- ---do you count it as an inconnience

t o you or just what is your reaction? I'm sure you have children at's

see .a son, a daughter. How many children do you have?

S: We're blessed with two daughters and two sons.

I: Uh, hum. ------- ---them.

S: Actually, uh, well, um. .well, I can lead up to it this way. When I went

to West Point I felt that I was following in the footsteps of a lot of

predecessors and I knew that I enjoyed the idea of troop duty.

I: Uh, hum.

S: And I also felt. well, I don't really want to be in a position of asking

the troops to do something I couldn't do so I got to be sort of a doer as

well as a thinker and uh, that sort of indirectly lead me to a fortunate

situation where I made the r team a couple of times. And so I've

always been. uh, perhaps it's lucky, but I've always had a feeling of

security and when you feel secure, you, uh. it doesn't bother you if
"o-C
your wife demonstrates some talent F- some initiative or resourcefulness.

I've never felt insecure from it, so .

I: Do you feel this is necessary. perhaps why OF that, uh, as much criticism

----------- ----far out but I'm talking about

things which, you know where a wife or a woman takes sort of outside the

home for constructive purposes and. .but where she's a success, maybe perhaps

more of a success than her husband, do you feel tlis is a threat to his

as Well, it shouldn't be. Actually the q estion might be worded

, .sor-t-ef-differently just because", 11, .. --- doesn't necessarily mean
51r hy-f5








5

she's been anymore successful than he has. If he's been a successful

husband and father, I would say comparisons areodious. Uh, he's fulfilled

his function in life and if that function involves the using of some wonderful

talent that is God-given then she fulfilled this out too. It's a matter

of personalities and I think all couples have to work it out. And it shouldn't

e based on preconceived ideas of this is what the man does or this is what

the woman does or--now, I throw my weight around and now she does. It's t.

lot less of a problem than needs to be in mnst cases.

I: Would you find it beneath your dignity to go prepare a meal perhaps

or to wash the dishes or to share some household chore with your wife?

S: Well, again it might be just a matter of luck. But for ten years after

my mother died my brother and I were with my father and we were. .we
II II
used to say we batched it together so ellT-washing dishes or cooking

never bothered me. I never -Pmht any threat to masculinity.

I: Well I think uh. ------ ------ -- certainly ver how many
\

men would you be over in this position ) '-.

S: Well, I had assignments in World War II in the Pacific. mi-

5,000 troops.

I: Well, let's hope they all don't come in at one time. Suppose some of the
r
men, say they were under you, came in and you had you hands in the dishpan,

this kind of thing. Would not embarrass you or make you feel you know,

apologetic in any way to account the situation or ----- ---

S: No, no. I, matter of fact, I was. .when I was stationed in the Phillipines
back
when I was stationed in Korea, uh, I was transferred to Japan and I became
fS ~sRAo Japa and Ib
commanding officer of the--- --- area which was a -a- base which

was secret during much of the war. I happens to be in the soudern part of

/-i--.L-- .-and t it : o-r:acd there that for some time the American Air Force

had *--'-----been able to bomb it or anything. But, anyway, it was-i 0









6




there. And I gft curious about you know, the problem of morale in the

services is very important. As a matter of fact, in the old days before

you make, uh. .

I: Want you to go right ahead and talk .

S: Make military justice a, uh, or giving a professional pledge and

T .t.e bringing the American Bar Association in, uh, every officer had to be C-

t real good, uh, what I will callShe ---lawyer because military

justice involved not only the welfare of the individual but also that

of his unit and that of the army as a whole. So I. .one day. I got

up at 3:30 in the morning and went down and had it fixed up so I reported

for K.P.--that's kitchen police. I hadn't been. .III only been on the
just
post a few days so nobody knew me. And theytthought I was probably--you

know sometimes a man has a lot of ability but gets into trouble everycgnow

and then so never gets to be a sergeant or maybe he gets to be a sergeant

then he gets busted. And I was youngish looking and rather thin so they

didn't question too much about my age. So I did a tour as a K.P. just

to see whether they were being mistreated too much, you know.

I: Very commendable.

S: That was a very interesting experience. My two sons were just crazy about

it. There was-- ------ I happened to promote a marine, an ex-

marine sergeant who had re-enlisted in the army and he thought that due to

some trouble he'd had in the past--he would never e able to be a sergeant

again. But, I got enough feedback about him so within about a week later I

was able to promote him to the grade of sergeant. And he was very appreciative

of that and surprised.

I: I would tnk--yes. I don't believe yet that we have established your full

name .---.- .-----you know, as you say. Colonel Weber, we've heard it








7



so much. familiar. so familiar it comes natural. .Colonel Weber.

But. how do you. .?

S: Well, I'm Frederick Weber--one "b" in the Weber

I: Spell that because it is important to our readers and listeners.

S: F-r-e-d-e-r-i-c-k, first name then R. Weber. W-e-b-e-r. My father

told me they named me Frederick after Frederick j fea=rvehat was

Frederick the-Great. And he was very.

I: He had quite a history, didn't he?

S: Yes. He was quite proud of his military service and had the surname

of VonWager when he was in Germany. But when he came to American he

thought he would go American all the way so he dropped the Von and

he was a great inspiration to me actually--I had--we studied a course

towards a Ph.D. at the University of Virginia And all the instructors

there told me that there was a. .asked me if I'd ever read about the

r relationship between what you, uh, stand up selecting as a profession
0_(_
and other aspects, either cf your character the environment that your

parents had or anything like that. We always had a very strong interest

in education. My father spoke six languages and was very fluent. And
10 PA C11-A to';
so after I had my 30 some years in the army tEy wife and I j 't to

education. And, uh.

I: What period in your life--I won't ask you your age, but were you married

when you went into service or of course, going to West Point, you're not

allowed to be married or wAs that the rule then?

S: No, that's always been a rule, but a lot of cadets, uh, married on graduation

day. The cadet chapel was awful busy that day. But I had heard, you know,








8



I started to say about being not too highly paid in the service but I had

my idea that it might be wise that I found myself an army girl because she

was used to army service. So I did I had a girl who I eventually married

and she was from an army family. Her father was stationed at the Army War

College at Washington D.C. at the time I was a cadet and so we used to go

down there and date around Washington, the year she made her dayview and

then. .

I: That was a very romantic then.

S: Yes, so we. .I was stationed there near Baltimore at Fort Howard, Maryland

near Fort McHenry where Frances Scott Key wrotelthe Star Spangled Banner.

And we--we had decided that we would--we got married in January a few months

after I had graduated so we had time to. .

I: For the record, would you tell us your wife's name?

S: My wife's name is Katherine Madison Kingman. Her father--well we had

an interesting time. Her Kingman family had graduated several people from

West Point. They go back as far as 1855. And then after I graduated

we got into the records and it turned out that one of my fifth grade grand-

fathers graduated in the class of 1815. West Point was start in 1802. So

we had lot of competition to see which one of us--which side of the family

had the most graduates of West Point in it. One of our sons graduated from

Wbst Point and my wife's brother went there and her uncle was assistant chief

of engineers and her father was an army colonel for infantry in the general

staff.

I: Uh, being a career man as you say. uh. .in the army. Tell us some of

the countries you've been in--just briefly some of the general information

that you get as compared to the country around us.

S: Well, we. uh. the first time we had a wonderful opportunity to go to







9



Berlin for the Berlin Olympics. Many people feel that we still haven't

ever outdone the.Germans he Olympicswere held in '36. You lave a

12 special interest in the Olympics other than your own--just your own country

or did you have any family or any people that you knew that was participating?

S: Well, I got into it because I was interested in--I was always obeyinglmy

coaches because as the years have gone by, it wasn't quite this bad when

I was an undergraduate but it's almost the year-round training period now

for sports. But I liked all kinds of sports. So I always went one sport

in the fall like cross-country and then I might be fencing in the winter.

I got to be on an Olympic fencing team later. And then in the spring I was
(eA r rr eJC_
on BgVa s one year and shooting another year and track another year.

And that all helped me because later on because later on. I had thought

the more sports I knew the better I could handle my troops wherever we were,

whatever the facilities were .g would know something about it. And so I

also made the--I was the first man in the American Olympic games--American

team to make two Olympic teams the same year. I was on the Olympic fencing

team and the Olympic Modern Pentathlon Team of 1936 in Berlin.. the Modern

Pentathlon. There used to be an all-around event in the ancient games so when

they started them up again in 1896 they decided to call it the Modern Pentathlon.

It has running, shooting, riding, swimming, and fencing. It was a great, won-

derful experience. But even though I always said that even though I was very

fortunate to happen to become involved to the extent whereas able to become

efficient enough to make a team or two2that. uh. my main ambition was to

see Americans improve their physical fitness. We are very sports minded but

we have 90 men watch and one performer. I like to see it the other way aroundT-

90 men perform and one watch. Of course, we're always mixed ap with finances so







11


what we could get people to watch who are too old to compete but keep

everybody doing something. I have always been very interested in the

intramural sports because that gets everybody in there--you don't have

to be an only champion to play in intramurals. I was interested here

when we were at Pembroke State University on the faculty. They, for some

reason or other, maybe they:thought wa ? Well,:It just indicates an attitude.

Even though the President has a physicall (tness Cunserying to promote health

in America.

I: Didn't that come out under--was it Eisenhower's administration?

S: Yes, under President Eisenhower's. They still have it though. All the

presidents have continued it. Well, .they.

I: It is interesting that he was a military man tht .

S: Yes, that's true. e was a fine football player--got his major letter in

football. Well, 4t one routine faculty meetings of the physical ed department

introduced a /- ----- that women who, particular at Pembroke, at the age

I think it was 27 or 28 but they would be excused from P.E. course, physical

-_-education course I:This is actually the age where they need to be .

S: Yeah. Right. And the idea is if anybody has studied it that a formal

in a regulated situation like college where you have the facilities, everybody

should (cough) excuse me, you can develop--you can learn some very valuable

lessons, that you can apply in life in general. If you are exposed vigorously

to at least individual sport and one team sport. In addition to that you should

learn--some of what we call carry overs sport.

I: Right.

S: Because one that you can continue on all your life. For instance, on fencing

right now I was--I went up to Appalachina where my daughter coaches a fencing








12


team there and I worked a solid week with them. Then I was at Pembroke

on the faculty. I taught the---physical--I taught the fencing class for

the physical education department. And everybody should learn a carry-over

sport and even though you say to yourself, yes I should eat the right food

or I should exercise but so many people in America end up just playing golf

on the weekend and if you trape around three miles, you're liable to get

a heart attack if you haven't stayed in good shape. I'd like them to learn

something that they could do every day. Of course, golf if wonderful
btcc inglfyo
but it is timeconsuming 'If you re still in your productive years Eter

you're retired, you can play it every day if you want to. So I've--and

then they had also--I think a man if he was 30 or 31 he wouldn't have to

take phys ed. I thought that if was coming to this college, he ought to

make sure that he had idea inculcated into himself that he should do some-

thing to be self-sustainrg you know. To be self-sustaining was physical.

Now some people. .

I: Do you understand the logic of this reasoning.. why perhaps fis was a

rule?

S: Well, it was a. it was a. I would assume that they figured that people

already at 27 or 28 were past their active years. Now generally, it's figured

that, uh, you know how swimmers now are only kids. After you get to be twenty,

they say you're burned out. I don't think you're burned out exactly but I

think you figure--well it's time for me to get my profession underway, unless

you're going to turn into a professional athletic. And there's nothing wrong

with that either but I think one think that would help reserve sports as a

means for the average citizens and maintain his health--would be that we

would sponsor more amateur sports. We've gotten so much--we've gotten

well actually you asked me about what countries I've been in. We are more








13



immature about many aspects such as athletics ken other countries.

England Ia< famous for it. They '11. .they'll do their best and fight

you tooth and nail but as soon as the conflict is over they smile--they

shake your hand --let's go to the pub and have a beer or somettng. I

mean there's never any--this killer instinct where they have to feel

that they want to commit suicide if they lose. I think you should try

hard to win because you surprise yourself on how you can see anything

youVe done in the past and you're really inspired to do it. But on the

other hand, you should take a reasonable attitude because there's only

one person can win and the others should be willing to continue it as

a -, not just because if they win, they can turn pro and make a

lot of money.

I: Would these ---- ---- won't say failure but lack of a victory

perhaps do they lack experience and nothing else better than over-worked

were because everyday at least in some small way, we don't always succeed

or come up to our goals.

S: Oh, yeah we .....

I: And by not winning sometimes.

S: Well, a famous story in Thomas Edison had 10,000 failures before the right

bulb worked for him. Yes, as back in my own experience I can remember more

about at least as many bouts probably a few more where I lost. And I can

remember why or what happened than the ones I won. Once you win then you're

looking for something else. Maybe for a more important event to try to

win in. But when you lose, you got thrown back and you're bound to remember.








14


And it's a good learning experience, sure.

I: So what year did you retire in?

S: I retired in 1960.

I: 1960 gtd from there you came with. .

S: Well, I was stationed in Fort Bragg when I retired and we had already

become somewhat settled in this area. We had bought a home in a rural

town of Lumber idge. The only.

I: How fr approximate from here, Pembroke?

S: From Pembroke, it's 19 miles. We had. .my wife liked the name. We--

the address is Lumberridge--don't need a box number--you don't need a street
b
number. It's the only Lumberridge in America. They have wooden bridges

and covered bridges and plank bridges but it's the only Lumberidge. So

we've enjoyed it there. We have an old Southern home there. I didn't get

around to telling you.

I: Very beautiful, by the way, I've had the occasion to be inLit.

S: We- I didn't get around to telling you where we've been. We've had

probably a normal tour for a career officer, one that stays in for 30 years.

Maybe I was overseas a little more than the average. I was overseas about

twelve years. We were in Hawaii when Pearl Harbor when Pearl Harbor was
bombed
bombed A continued on from there.. Then I eventually went to Australia

and the New Guinea Islands and the Phillippines--and I've been in Japan--

stationed in Japan and been stationed in several places in America. And in

Europe we've been stationed in Germany and Paris and of course as an outgrowth

of that, we've been able to visit lot of other countries--you knowngland,
A A
France, .

END OF SIDE ONE








15



SIDE TWO
COL. FREDERICK WEBER
MARILYN TAYLOR



I: Interview with Colonel Frederick Weber. My name is Marilyn Taylor. I'm

recording for the Doris Duke Foundation under the suspices of the University

of Florida with the American Indian Oral Studies Program with Dr. Samuel L.

Proctor as the director. This would be side two of the tape of this interview

and today is March 22. .. Stationed in these countries outside of

America, were you able most of the time to have your family with you?

S: Yes, by far, most of the time I was. Of course, during World War II in

Austrialia and New Guinea it was worked on.

I: Right.

S: But the war was ending when we went to Japan so my family was able to be

there and my family with me in the Phillipines and my family was with me

in Paris and my family was with me in Germany. It was a wonderful experience.

I: I'm sure you have definite feelings about the educational value of travel,

the children as they grow up to be exposed to different cultures.

S: Oh, yes, uh, there are of course, you know, in the preference test

questionnaire you get made up by Professor Gular and the one by Professor

Strong -brought out that some people prefer stable situations and some

prefer fluid situations. Some prefer working with people--and some prefer

working by themselves. Some prefer working with their hands and the problem

comes up about how does school affect your children when they keep moving

around so much. Well, we feel of..course that our children benefitted by

moving around, much more than they suffered. I mean our boy was able to







16



get into West Point, in spite of traveling around. And that's--that's

one of those--that group of about 40 of the most competitive schools in

the country. You know, the average I.Q. is about 135 for people in order

to get there. And, all our kids benefitted by the travel. And research

since then indicates that, you know, as you get older, especially after

you retire, if you don't do anything, it's just like --you have to exercise

your mind just like your muscles. And they have definite evidence that

you taper of ur mental agility and activity. And then you lose interest

and you die a lot quicker too, or more quickly.

I: I was going to ask you about this as a military man, you know, making it

a career, as you say--you've tried to be always active, physically fit this

kind of thing. You've had certainly a very active life. Uh, did you find

retirement hard to take or to go through? Was it an adjustment for you in

the sense that perhaps it would be to a lot of people? Did you see this as

the end or rather the beginning to other things?

S: Uh, I think that, uh, some people do have a problem with it and I was

sort-of playing it by ear. So like when you go on the map for a fencing

battle, and seize up your opponent for a while, I wasn't sure how things

were going to go. I was stationed at Fort Bragg for about five years and

had plenty of time to range full time and yet when I retired I wasn't too

sure what I wanted to do but I just had an optimistic attitude and things

turned out beautifully for me. My wife's brother was worried about retire-

ment. He retired about four or five years after I did. And he found it

very difficult to believe us when we said that retirement was wonderful.

The retirement was a question mark because atoually we didn't, uh, I got

involved. My wife and I both got our master's degree in East Carolina.







17



I: After retirement?

S: Yes, we were teaching at Pembroke and we would drive 140 miles to East

Carolina Friday afternoon after school. We would take a course one Friday

night, one Saturday morning, then we went there during the summer, a couple

of summer schools and got Gdegree in 64-65. And I also--we went to Europe--

I was a European manager of a life insurance company for two years.

I: This required travel.

S: Yeah, right. And I--we taught--here and there. We taught in the Blue Ridge

Mountains up near Charlottesville mrp=I1S the University of Viriginia. I

was a football.

I: Beautiful country there.

S: Hum? Yes. We, uh, I was a president of an.athletic's official association

in w'Jp and I d13iz in football and basketball, baseball for awhile--

a couple of years.

I: Uh, hum.

S: And then I got into politics.

I: I wanted to ask you, uh, if we can keep on education a few more minutes

and I know that this is one of your cups of tea, so to speak. I'm sure

youte familiar and know Andy Edmundson, I believe at Fort Bragg.

S: Oh, yes.

I: I think from the fifth grade to the graduate program that he's the overseer

or responsible for something like this. I recall having sometime having to
0- Ce7)- L-4^LC-^
write a paper confronting ggtemporaryifn education. Somebody directed me

toward him and had a most interesting talk and he said that and ------

.- the figures he gave me--it's still hard to believe. But most of the guys

you know that come into the service--they're high school drop-outs. He said

there is something like 95. This was representative of the boys all across

the nation--had dropped out of school, but that year, I think it's 4EIEZ y--







18

1/
sexamn- o m perhaps. That year 75,000 boys graduated from high school
Ti i rktr r-Pr j mv-
e-nr gary. And I said, well, you know, this says that something,

somewhere went wrong. But it was good that they could pick it up in

the, you know, military service. What is the problem? What do you think

happens to boys or girls, even for that matter, uh, when you drop out.

Where are we lacking,2 There's many answers to that as there is .

S: Yes, it's a complex picture. It depends on what decade you're referring

to. For instance, when I dropped in--when I was commissioned from West

Point in 1930. There were only 100,000 in the army and 10,000 officers.

We knew most of the important figures in the service. And there was no

draft at that time. It was all, uh, volunteering and ==i g And of

course a lot of the people who didn't feel comfortable in civilian life

or had dropped out of school were either themselves or they

were invited by a -----------officer or a judge friend or a relative

to try the army for a while to see if he liked it. And some of them

^_liked it._enough so they stayed on.I:Well, do you think perhaps this could

" be a solution for maybe the immaturity that maybe the men .

S: Well, of course the

I: ----- so to speak?

S: Well, research indicates that the people who have previous service have a

higher grade on the grade point average in college than those who haven't

been in service. So, that. .although that by itself is just a feeling but

I think it's been verified to the point that we can say definitely that it

has a maturing influence on you. It doesn't say that everybody whose

pulling a tour in the service comes to college but those that do have a

have their feet on the ground. They comeeS- college because they have ambition

and so they do well. It doesn't say that their I.Q. is any higher than -







19

^Jof
college student. It just says that they get more out iFcollege saSreEt

than the other individual.

I: Perhaps, they see the need of it about going to college.

S: Yeah. Well, a lot of people, you know, you give them things on a

platter, you don't appreciate them. Better say that. .honesty, I mean

anything, uh, good taste-C'S be appreciated unless you see bad taste.

I: True. Parodoxes.

S: Yeah. Parodoxes. That's what they call a, uh, -- -expression. The, uh,

well, I'll think of it in a minute.

I: This is certainly true of life I think we certainly have to accept it.

Almost made up of parodoxes, isn't it? The good and the bad--the successes

and the failures.

S: Yes.

I: It balances out.

S: It's what they call the inconsistency of perfection because if you.

perfection doesn't allow you to appreciate imperfection they say. Y 1 AU ,

I: I have felt that this was one thing.that has been lacking--is not

recognized in our public schools, and I, as far as I call the duty of im-

perfection. Uh, I think that sometimes we prod or push our children as

teachers or as parents to the point of perfection, you know. We want them

because somehow they're an extension, whether we feel that way consciously

or subconsciously.

S: I think that .

I: Could we be guilty of this?

S: Carrying around the. continuing the subject from a different view point.

I think that, uh, as important as it is to have some courses in sociology having







20



to do with married life. Perhaps it's even more important to have

some instruction on how to be a parent, because the bringing up.a child

is really very complex and you'll. On the one hand, you'll--you shouldn't

for instance pressure him into doing--following the same profession you

have unless it develops--it's about the same for him or her to do. On

the other hand, you shouldn't leave him dangling. And we've often said

they've discovered now that young kids really would like to have you give

them limits rather than just say, O.K. come on in when you're through

playing around at night or what have you. But if you really give them

limits, they really wanted to be told but they don't want to tell you

they'll do it. They're just hoping that you'll. .they also realize

you're interested in their welfare if you establish the limit. And

in the same way, I think it's desirable to encourage them--it's well-

known that most students who do poorly in school have parents who haven't

given education a high standing in the atmosphere of the home. And re-

gardless of whether the parent is a college--a high school graduate himself

or herself, they can still establish that education is a worthwhile goal

and the child becomes motivated. Motivation is something that grows over

a period of time. You can't suddenly snap a switch and have them be motivated.

And I think they react in all walks of life as a result of the long association

with their family as well as their peers.

I: It seems like in the last few years that, the time has speeded up such that

we live in a much faster pace. I think technology and things like this is

perhaps responsible to the fact that we hear some people voice that a college

education is not necessary and they back it up with tatementf like we have

Ph. D's driving taxi cabs and this kind of thing, And so they are instructing

more of the trade skills--carpentry, welding, and this kind of thing.







21


S: Well, the -- ------ when I went in high school back in the

twenties uh, we had the manual arts in school, like in high school. I

know where a trade school is, I mean even correspondence schools which

have succeeded that were in existence before I went to school. I think

that, uh, that just completes the spectrum of possibilities for people who

may not be suited for college and the thing is. .

I: And especially since it's an established face that everyone's not, is this

not true?

S: Oh, surely. But, on the other hand, we're constantly being subjected to

certain cultural pressures. In America, you know, we've established the

idea that everybody's equal and then somebody coined the expression they

said, yeah, we're all equal but some are more equal than others. And the

idea being that we've still got to make some establishment there. In other

words, instead of making an odios comparison as to quality we just say that

some people, uh, their life satisfaction will come out of doing things with

their hands and others with their--consciously with their minds and not to

try to make any derogatory comparisons between the activities.

I: We have to agree it certainly takes all kinds and all kinds of endeavors

and vocations and careers to make a balanced role to keep. Well, it's for-

tunate that not everybody wants to be a doctor or a policeman or a military

man. And, as a matter of fact, the kind of society which gives us progress

of a. perhaps some people would be the question mark in parenthesis, in

that technology isn't always and was. Matter of fact, technology has lead us

to our problem-of ecology and pollution right now. So, ,

S: We'd like to see say--you know--enough to back up that statement a little bit.

I think we all do--but some have different feelingsion that technology has

you know, increased technology problems.







22



S: Yes, the world of science and the world of technology--in a way, technology

is an application of scientific discovery and principle. And the two have

been allowed to develop independently. There has been no, excepting in the

case perhaps of some countries.where the government is very --------

and can control things. Uh, there's been a lack of coordination between the

two. And we have read in the Bible that the civilizations have come and gone

and been destroyed and grown up again. We have an infection that will last

indefinitely. But, uh, now we discover that the. that the earth itself is

just a space vehicle and that there is limits. We are not being replenished.

What we've got is all we're going to be able to work with. We don't have a

source of energy moving in--I mean, not energy, but materials like metals

and other forms that will replenish, a, you know we have an energy crisis

coming. We don't have any replenishment of sources of energy other than

we can keep--we can probably improve our utilization of the sun as a source

of our energy. That the world itself is gradually using up its fossil tools

and, uh, even nuclear sources will eith r dry up or kill us because we have--

we always have a. the atomic slag oratomic waste that we have to take care

of and ev ntually there won't be any room left for us to live on because we

have to bm=iw that stuff all on us so we've got to come to terms with ecology

and our total availability..,..

I: With this ecology, uh, it's a relatively new word--on new things we had to

deal with--it's come out in the last three or four years. I mean we may--

it may, you know, have been but we really had to become aware of it and look

at it as it is.

S: Right. It was in the dictionary, of course, for a long time. Now. .

I: We really understand what it's all about ) --, ----today.

S: We really know what it means now that it is an important element of our








23



existence.

I: And I think --- 6-6- -p-or mainly before, I'm not sure. They might

have gone hand in hand perhaps you know with the population problem

and the movement with the problems on campus--the zero population

movement and some of I-- e had my vastectomy *

this kind of thing You know, advertising this is what everybody should

do. Uh, how do you feel along those lines, from the male point of view?

I think they advocate to have two children at least to replace yourself

and stop there and those with bigger families they just didn't know any

better and you know, now we begin to see that by the year 2000 in something

we're not going to have enough room for all of us to stand on. -----sJ

Do you feel. .. ?

S: Well, I think that. .is a very important thing that needs to be handled

because most people are like on a treadmill and they figure, yes in the

year 2000 I realize it's going to be a problem but I'm not going to be

here then and let them solve it when they get there. But meanwhile, if

we continue this way they will be incapable of handling the problem when

it gets to be the year 2000 because we will have destroyed so much and

promote so much pollution that their hands will be tied and then they may

cuss us out but they won't be able to do anything aboutit. Of course,

Marie Antoinette expressed that idea when she said "after us, the iiln.).

But now we realize that after us the can be just the end of our

existence as a race. First of all, we need control. For instance, when you

tell a coal mining company that they're destroying ecology. They'll fight

tooth and nail because it means a tremendous location for them to get up

and say, well I guess we'll have to quit being conainers and go and do something








24



else. That's the profession they know and they have a tremendous amount

of inertia on the one hand and momentum on the other continue in the

thing that they're doing. And, uh,. and uh,

I: Of course, it's their bread and butter at that point.

S: At that point, it is, yeah, and they don't feel like--they feel, well if

we go ahead and do it then we're being the suckers and maybe some others

are getting by with it. So, we have to enable our government to be able

to control our future and it has got to come soon.

I: You think it has got to come to the government, don't you.

S: President Nixon said, you know, some of our observation stations near the

South Pole are. they've picked up DDT in the snow down there. ....The

world is too small now with all the.meanso progagation of poisons and, uh,

the hills o f .above Los Angeles the trees are dying off.

I: What is your mediate feeling or reaction of, perhaps to make it seem more

self-related if you were a young man starting our again with, you know, your

family to come rather than more or less behind you. Uh, I think you have. .

you consider most of your children grown. You do have some lovely grandchildren

and so on. Uh, would you feel frightened the way the state of the world is

now, everything--so many things that come as a fatalistic attitude, you know.

S: Well, I've uh. no two people are alike of course. I know that there have

been times when I was a boy--when I was in Oklahoma right after my father died

from an accident with a slay. We used to go out in the winter--he had pure

bred trotting horses--a slay tipped over and he got an accident. Uh, I felt

lost at that time but most of my life it feels. seems to me that I have

never had anything but an optimistic attitude about the future, you know in

terms of myself and America I guess I was --I wasn't exactly chavinistic about

America but I felt as though it was free country yet when I go overseas I've

been perfectly willing to be modest and admire what I see in the foreign








25



countries. We though Japan as a marvelous civilization there and

incidentally, of course, you know how they were--they are so homogenous

they were able to led into a very unfortunate kind of a war with us

and then the Germans their civilization there is very fine too.

I: They seem to have rebuilt overnight.

S: Yes, of course both countries had a very. I though a very nice home

life too. It is one thing that we need, I think.

I: How do you see, for instance, Japan and Germany educationally-wise,

having children perhaps in school at that time, you were. concerns

them..

S: Well, what happened I took a course in comparative education at the University

of Viriginia which was taught by a man that we feel came from Russia. And

we studied the educational systems in Germany, and Russia and England and

Denmark one oriental count India. And, what was it you were wondering

about--how do we feel about..

I: How do we.. I was thinking comparative Ii -------- 4- educationally

speaking 4 to Germany and .

S: Well, we have .we have. .

I: Japan you mentioned.

S: Yeah. we--schooling over there is a little more controlled or structured

in the final analysis of course a person reaches his level--as far as

scholastic are concerned. But they're a little more business-like about

it in some of those foreign countries in that they're not trying to prove

that we're all equal or that we're all--should go to college. And people

in the professions over there are highly respected. For instance,Te have

Swiss friends that we always visit when we go to Europe because the man of







26



the house on the Swiss Olympic Team when I was on the American Olympic

Team. And there when we go out to a local restaurant, and they have good

ones there. They always go up and shake hands with the owner and the metrodee

and sometimes we go on and talk to the chiefs. Everybody's respected as an

expert in his field.

I: Uh, hum. This is wonderful, isn't it?

S: Great--great atmosphere, yeah. And when:we:go they own two or three

valleys over there. He's a wine merchant and they go out and meet the

people, shake hands with them in the fields, and they go and watch them

in the barns and they go to the lumbermills, anywhere And it's very

much camaraderie there.

I: Uh, huh. Do you think we're that perhaps we're too class conscious in

America.

S: Itb very interesting that we.

I: The upper class, the lower class, the middle class and it seems that we

categorize everything. We have the most progressive instrument of any

country in the world in the form of our constitution. But we sort of

gravitated around through technology and--well, I don't know--just we're

still a young country. For instance, over in Europe on the T.V., they're

very relaxed. All of the commercials are packed into one half hour and then

all the programs are uninterrupted.

I: Uh, huh. That would seem nice.

S: Right. And then when one program's over, if it happensto get over three

or four minutes before the other one is due to go on, the tube is just quiet

and blank. And you relax and you wait tdi the bell rings for 8:00 and the

next program comes on. They are not fanatic to throw things in there.







27



They're very relaxed aboutit.
r -, e Y 7,e ...
I: They're not-----------

S: And also when. yeah, you can't imagine, I guess you can. You know how

irritating it is you've got the set adjusted just right for volume and then

when the commercial comes on, it blasts out.' It just, when, and when you

recall having been in some of these foreign countries where they don't do

that you see. Well, we're still immature--it's going to take us a while.

And, of course, we've got to solve the ecology problem or we never will

have time to get mature. I'm not saying that as an apology for Americans.

You can go to either extreme. You can go overseas and act like you're the

------of the walk and make everybody mad at you. On the other hand, you can

go over there and very foolishly apoligize for everything that's bad about

America. We're a wonderful country but the whole world--as a matter of fact,

it's a --a joint problem the whole world has got to get together to save us

from an ecological stand point.

I: Do you think perhaps, we were talking about parodoxes a while ago--maybe

American is a paradox in as much as we have a mixed reality concept. And

by that we speak of the American dream but yet, we become dissatisfied some-

times with our leaders and we're down on them and if certain people heard us

talk they would certainly know we're not Americans perhaps Communists or some-

thing of this. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're against one thing

in our society or our country that we're against the whole good of it, you

know. But is there mixed reality concept, can you see that?

S: Well, the. I think one of the problems that has developed out of the progress

since the Industrial Revolution is the fact that the material standard of

living has such high points in countries like American and such low points like






28




in some of the countries in Asia makes it very difficult for us to have

a one world civilization because we're --in a round about way we've tried

to, uh, take care of that by sending foreign aid. It irritates some people

to have foreign aid because they know we have some people hungry here also.

I: Right.

S: However, hungry is an unfortunate thing because when you lave an insufficient

diet or insufficient vitamins and so on, you can be your own worst enemy be-

cause you lose ambition, you lose energy and so somebody else has to help you

out. We think os doing the same thing around the world. On the other hand,

we've still got the problem of long-range plans as well as short range with

respect to ecology, pollution, population, all that.

I: So many things I want to ask you such an interesting person to talk to--

you know that but in interest of time, I want to get back to--I know you

hold a very prestigious position here axgmb Rdd River Valley so to speak1

and has to do with politics. Would you tell us what that position is
; yo/eu into theh PP,'";% --
and you came into theg: --- ------ and something about the life

style would you--we talked about life styles in other countries. And even

we can go three miles from here and people live a little different, you know.

Certainly a different dialect:Ilm sure you've noticed. Uh, tell us some of
"- -M ,( AAQyAeA.%
your comments on you got interested--what's the position. .


END OF SIDE TWO








29


SIDE THREE



I: This is side three of a continuation of an interview with Colonel Frederick

Weber. My name is Marilyn Taylor--I'm recording for the Doris Duke Foundation,

the American Indian Oral Studies Program under the auspices of the University

of Florida with Dr. Samuel L. Proctor as director. As stated earlier,

this would be considered side three of the tape of the interview with

Colonel Frederick Weber. Today's date is March 22, 1973. Some of your

comments--particulary how you got interested--what's the position first.

I'm throwing too many questions at you one time and that is I'm speaking

of the Republican.

S: Oh, yes. Well, in, actually, I'm the chairman of the Republican County

Executive Committee. In other words, commonly referred to as the County--

Republican County Chairman is for short.

I: Uh, hum. And in this you deal, uh, with what percentage of Indians,

mainly Lumbee Indians or is it made up .
A
S: Well, of course, it's pertinent to mention that Robegpson County is very

unique. I haven't found hold of another county in the United States that

is quite like this one. All three major groups--blacks, and Indians, and

whites are--may legitimately refer to themselves as minorities with respect

to the confines of Robeispn County. Because there's about, maybe 37-38%

white, 31 or 32% black, and about the same of Indians. So we're all minorities

considered by ourselves. Uh, of course, the while people, as in most places

in the South, have been most progressive with respect to being registered and

with respect to participating in the whole, whole political activities of

their area. And, uh, likewise in RobeMEson County as in most of the South,
L-







30




uh, the Democratic party has been in the ascendancy here for about 80 years.

And, so, I came from a state where the Republican party was on a par with

the Democrat, that is Michnigan.

I: Excuse me, Colonel Weber, I'm going to have to interrupt to turn over here

just a minute. You were talking about the minority groups, the three

minority groups in this county and something of the political nature.

S: Yes, in Michigan where I came from, you never know whether it's going to

be a Republican governor or a Democrat governor and likewise with the

majorities in the legislature. And I've noticed over the years that states

like Michigan and New York, Illinois and California--to mention four or five

states. The --their states where the--they're the more progressive states

in the country, as a whole, regardless of what particular luck that an

individual has and their states where the parties are both comparatively

strong--strong enough.

I: Two party system.

S: Yeah, that is what they call a two-part system. I hadn't really eXected

to live in the South after I took my uniform off except indirectly knew

I would go somewhere. Because my wife said before we got married if we

got married, we weren't going to retire in some cold climate like Michigan.

It would be cold in the winter--she thought that when we were older, we

wouldn't want to freeze. But, uh, Fort Bragg was my last station and I

got into politics rather indirectly. You see in the old army--we're referring

to life prior to World War II. Most army officers made a thing out of the

fact that America was run by a civilian government. We said, uh, wherever

the commanding officer--commander and chief is, meaning the President, down







31



through the Secretary at War used to be nowadays and on down through the

generals. Whatever the orders were, you carried them out--you didn't worry

about who was--which party was in power that way you weren't--you didn't

have any mental anguish about obeying orders or anything. But, nowadays,

I tlink there is a tendency towards more participation in the political process,

although you are still are somewhat restricted--you can't go around with

tags on your automobile on an army post if you're on active duty. Although

that now that I'm retired, I may do it. Tags supporting a certain individual--

you're supposed to be non-political, but yet, you're allowed to belong to

a party. So I got into it indirectly. We've been living there about five

years, about .

I: -f v- 41014

S: That'ssight. About two months before I retired, I got a telephone call from

one of the local citizens. And he said, "well, you're it." I said what

do you mean? He said, we've just elected you maj-e. I said well you can't

do that, I can't be .political officelwhen I'm on active duty. He said,

well that's okay--just don't call a meeting til after you retire then everything
it
will be okay. I guess I was in the clear. The laws are very specific but I

had not--truthfully, had not campaigned. As a matter of fact, in our little

town, the thing in--to all intentions and purposes was nonpartisan.

I: Are you talking about Lumberbridge?

S: About Lumberbridge.

I: Okay.

S: Nevertheless, I don't know whether I could be re-elected now that they know

I'm a Republican. At that time, they didn't know and they didn't care too

much about it. At least, they didn't know.








32

I: But is seems that you7tth1 the. first year 4n what-,sojpe f ty

or seventy years that we've had a Republican government?

S: Uh, over seventy years.

I: Uh, huh, I think it's about seventy, too.

: Since the turn of the century.

I: Right. So it seems now that you are in favor now, you know. L/,-

S: Well, we've still got the minority party, although there are about six

counties out of the hundred counties that actually have a majority registration

of Republicans. You see, here, we've had a representation of about 29--

30 to 1 and we're improving a little bit. I guess it's.now perhaps down
i0 I
to about trfty- to =ar something like that. And, we're going to put

down a registration drive in the next couple of months that may bring it

up.

I: Do you think thgi:- 7------------------mainly around American Indian studies

and you work with them and you have through the university and other positions

you've been in and probably in-service as well, do you seem--what is the

attitude found in RobeBs n County toward political people or leaders or

even in their views, is it apathetic or they enthusiastic about it or do

they seem to don't care--are they enthusiastic or what is th& feeling as

you see it?

S: Well, there are two sides to it. One is--how do people feel as individuals

and then on the other hand, how much do they transfer it into action on

election day?

I: Right.

S: There are many things that can affect it. For instance, if a person is

interested in status quo if he has any influence, like if he's a supervisor,

a plant manager, he can make it very difficult for you to get off Csg go and

vote, even though the law says you're supposed to allow them an hour or two







33



hours to get to vote. And if he doesn't permit you to get off, then

your votes cancel.

I: Do you find much of this in Robe lon County?

S: Well, there's been an awful lot of it in the past. Uh, specifically, I

don't have positive personal knowledge that I can pinpoint. But I feel

that the trend is aoSC=gF y improving although.....

I: Well, I think you know, you and I understand the reason but for the benefit

of our readers and listeners, would you state you; as you said, it would

be an opinion and this is what we want.

S: Right.

I: Why thiswould be--how would a -------------------involved Mvoting?

S: Well, I'll tell you, government translates itself into a matter of

economics and finances. And if you're with the gg, you'll have a

feeling of insecurity when you hear about somebody else coming in and

changing things. Now when you go to school as a student, intellectually

the idea of democracy and two or three parties is very logical and you'll

appreciate it. But when you're in the system living in a place and if

you're with a party in power, you tend to want to preserve the status quo.

Now .

I: People don't like change always, do they?

S: Yeah, well, because you don't know what is going to be and also, uh, it

tends to be a chain reaction too. Your boss lets you know that he's not

interested in any interlopers any doggone Republicans for instance.

And his boss on up the line, there's a great pressure. We've been planning

to get people to switch parties and I had an old-liner Republican bare the

other day tell me, "well you shouldn't go to these--these intermediate

level of management even though they are important people. And the way






34



the trend is, the people that are most willing to change are ones who

have moved into the area. You see this in Robenson County, for instance,

is thoughtof as. .

I: Are you speaking now of Indians, uh, want to keep it on the.

S: Oh, oh, that's right, yeah.

I: You say moved in your area because we do have less .

S: That's right. W1ll, we haven't had any movin'in of Indians to speak of,

no. Once in a while an Indian from -Esway hears about some excitement and

gets attracted into it.

I: Well, did you find in this last election that there were more Indians

registered as-Democrats or had voted previously as the Democrats switched
qfz- Hols&Ai to Republicans especially in the government, you know, ihstaaea-campaign.

S: Well, for instance, if we have 20 to 1, that means registration. Of

course, a lot 6f people aren't registered, which, by that, in comparing

with other counties, you could establish whether or yotyou would classify

a particular county as apathetic or above average --- ---. But in

additbn to that, say 20 to 1, then if we had 1500 Republicans and you've

got 30,000 Democrats and just a few of the other parties and some independents.

Well, if we, like in this last election I think in Robe son County we probably

went about 40--say 40--in the 40 percentage--say 40% voted for Governor

Sr-who won on account of the state-wide totals. He didn't win

in Robertson County. Only three of the thirty-nine precincts went for him,

the others. .

I: Only three in Robertson County?

S: Three out of thirty-nine, yeah. Buti4.40%, say 40%, uh, and if both-

say if there were 31,500, uh, 15,000c'av if 14,000 voted for W*rltsuser"
A5






35



and there are only 1500 registered Republicans then if even all of the

Republicans had voted, there are a heck of a lot of Democrats who voted

for them. And at the current point--of course, we think that those people

now, if th y were willing to vote for him as well as for President Nixon

and Senator Helms then maybe it's about time they switched over and tried

the Republican party for awhile because if they don't like the Republican

party, they can move back again. Do you think the people were mainly dis-

satisfied with the way things were going on the Democratic, I was talking

about state-wide now, of course, We'd had a Republican president. And,

uh, it seemed that he was the choice even though I wasn't for him, he

seemed qualified let's put it that way--he was experienced and so on.

S: Who's that?

I: I'm speaking of Nixon.

S: Oh, yes.

I: I think that he would be the one to go. .

S: Well, there's always a possibility of having big coattails, colloquially

speaking. In other words, undoubtedly, Nixon helped--there's probably

no state in the country where the fact that he was on the ticket didn't

help somewhat.

I: Psychological effect?

S: Yes, he was a--he was rather unique character, although some people say

he's not flashy. Maybe the girls don't think romantically of him for instance;

but on the other hand, it was thought that he was an honest type person. There

wasn't anything derogatory against him in that area. And on the other hand,

they knew that he was an accomplished political man to the degree of being--it

was warranted to call him a statesman. You know, particularly, a statesman

is one who is able to handle big problems as well as little and we know he

is great in the international arena in the things he's done. Well, uh,







36



undoubtedly that helped, and, uh, of course, McGovern was not a strong

opponent. I mean, as some people said, McGovern doesn't come along--

McGovern doesn't come along very often. And he was his idea--I'm not

trying to be partisan, but he was, uh, he wasn't consistent enough so

you felt comfortable with him. At one time, you might. And then a month

later, if he were saying something else, you would commence to wonder.

And I think the voting, I'm not talking. this is--it is easy to be a-

Monday morning quarterback. After the game over and you can analyze it--

I think that is probably why he is so drastically--I mean so dramatically

defeated. Well, of course Robertson County is very unique. Uh, now we

hope to appeal to the white vote because there are many more whites registered

than there are others.

I: You hope to change this--from Democrat to Republicans.

S: But in addition to that, since all three groups are minorities, we've thought

of working on the other two particular since there are white people being

more common in the area of leadership in politics. It might be a less, at

that moment it didn't seem propitious to work on them too hard, but maybe

break loose some of the blck voting. See the Indians had a feeling, particularly

the black people that their only hope was the vote with the Democrats as some

of Senator Helmss mentioned, he had a very wonderful program he ran on T.V.

stations, WRAL before he got elected. And 1970, November 8, he had an article

in there, he said, well folks yesterdaylthere were thousands and thousands of
W ci
North Carolinians who voted against Hube'r Hoover and people, you were asking

me about editors. It's remarkable how strongly people feel--I don't know

whether they feel more strongly about political parties than they do about

religion but it certainly doesn't take second place to anything else in their






37



life as far as having an attitude which is not very susciptible to

intellectual approaches. It's a sort of feeling with them like their

parents. You know the young vote was spoken about--the young voters

going change things. But they found that over 90% of young folks join

the same parties as their parents, among those who didn't go independent.

I; Like religious maybe you're like youe like your father, your mother, so

on as you grew up. Uh, that was one thing I wanted to ask you about--

the young say that the hope of tomorrow is the youth and we hear all

these kinds of cliches. What do you see for our youth and, uh, do you

think they're capable--there's so much more required of them today.

S: Well, I would like to take a more realistic attitude than most people

do. Uh, I say most people. It seems to me--at least, people that are

anxious them. For instance, I heard Robert Kennedy during when he was

campaigning, shortly before he was killed. He spoke to a large goup some-

where in California and he said, well you young folks I admire you, you

know so much more than I did when I was your age. To me, that's almost

facetious. I don't think, I mean, we still have the bell curve as far as

intelligence quotients concerned today as we ever had any other day.

There are just as many geniuses--there are just as many above average--

there are just as many average--there are just as many below average--

there are just as many retarded and noneducable now as there ever were.

And what they know, of course is only important in so far as they are able

to supply it. Uh, and if you--if they apply their intelligence to fiddling

around with drugs c. I'm not saying that I assume all young people do

that but I mean. .

I: We have a great deal of it. ..








38



S: In every. .every generation there is something that attracts the ones

who are susciptible and in one age it may be prohibition to abolish

the prohibition law. The idea is there are certain people that have just

enough yen to be anti-social to do something different and they do whatever

convenient to do. Like, if there are enough drug pushers around, maybe

drug addiction may be the vehicle they use to express anti-socialism. If

we've got a law against drinking booze, then maybe that's what they will

do and if we have, if we're very strict about dress and women have to wear

skirts maybe they feel anti-socialism can be expressed by wearing trousers,

that's just an idea.

I: And they also become political issues,i do they not, they did in this

last--I'm speaking of things like wearing women's skirts, the women's libbers

Gme out as well as the homosexuals and this kind of thing. It seems to me

we're a lot, I think perhaps it's good, uh, you differ. Tbe fact that we

an talk these things more openly. Used to --I can recall in my upbringing

and perhaps goes back to my purtanical ancestors that we couldn't talk about

these things, you know that was de whole thing.

S: Yeah, but regardless of whether you could talk about her or not, you thought

about her you see.

I: Right.

S: And to that extent, you were able to be involved with whether or not you

wanted to be anti-social or not, just as well when you talk. when you

couldn't talk about her as when you can talk about her I would like to

bring it down to brass tacks. For instance, a a leader in the military

service, I was exposed to every kind of a person that Uncle Sam managed

to draft and send to me. =And every kind of an officer--they had family







39


problems, they had personal problems and as a teacher I was exposed to

their academic levels of achievement, as well as their adjustment problems.

I have a degree in counseling and guidance and Ie been a placement officer,

so.

I: Let's see you've held several positions at the Pembroke State University.

You came. .

S: I taught science and math there and went and got the master's degree then

I was head of the counseling department for a couple of years then I finished

up with two years as a placement officer. And that's very interesting work

involved with trying to help people and trying to study them and understand

them. And what I was leading up to was dis--there are two levels of mental

and psychical approach to problems. First, like for instance, if we're

thinking that you're going to, uh, change your opinion or there is an

opportunity possible for you to change your opinion or there's an opportunity

possible for you to change your opinion, preferably, it's representing an

improvement. First, you have got to accept the idea--I mean you have to under-

stand the idea intellectually. Secondly, though, in order to apply it to

yourself, you've got to accept it;anost like in religion you accept Jesus

as your personal savior. So, accepting the idea to where it becomes part of

your nature and you go ahead and follow through. For instance, as a counselor,

you'll--a person comes in and has a problem. You can tell them what they

ought to do. And they say, yes that's absolutely right they go out of the office

completely sold on it and they may do it for a day or two but if it hasn't

gone through that process of where they accept it as well as understanding

it, eventually they'll go back to just what they were before. They won't. .

I: You think they need more than just perhaps with one or two exposures to you

if you were their counselor. Perhaps, they need to be reinforced now and then.







40



S: If you're able to relate to them. .that's of course, a personal

equation between the counselor and the person. But what I was trying to

bring out was this--young people as a group if we would feel that they

are the rising generation, take them as they come and realize that some

of them are going to be anti-social, some of them are going to be dedicated,

some of them are going to be average and treat them as complete spectrum

of humanity as it exists in our country. We would probably help them more

than if we tried to tell them they're better just because they know more.

For instance, I get down to the brass tacks, there is many--there is many

people who cheat on exams now as ever did. There are as many, uh, nasty

remarks printed in the bathroom. There is many. um?

I: I think it's called graffiti writing on the bathroom walls?

S: Oh, yes. And there are as many people who talk about not believing in

God and there are many people who want to do something about their dress

to change it to either let their hair grow long or short. So they're just

the same as they ever were and we ought to treat them as individuals and

not try to say that because they have been exposed to a T.V. that they know

anymore than anybody else did or that it makes any difference. For instance,

another thing that was just brought out recently. There has been a great

deal of discussion about the fairness or the unfairness of the fact that

schools are supported by property taxes, and hence, ipso factojgpresembably,

"the wealthy people, counties had better education. It's been proven and

it was stated as long ago as fifty years ago there was a famous--our son lived

in his home for awhile, Mark Hopkins up in Stockbridge, Massachsetts and he

made a simple statement one day. He said that all that you need for learning

to take place is a log with a teacher or professor on one end of it and a







41



student on the cder end of it. And Brakely mentioned it yesterday in the

program--he said they have not got any evidence to show that students from

good schools or wealthy schools or schools and counties where they have

a higher support netarily for schools--that they're any better adjusted

or any happier than students who go to poorer schools. But that is what

education is for--it's for adjustment with life. If you've go 90% of

society adjusted to themselves, then you eliminate all these other problems.

That is what we need is adjustment to live.

I: In your counseling with young people of the university--it was university

status--did you find many, who, without pinpointing I realize I don't want

it to be a loaded question but generally speaking, did you find many that

were on drugs or did you have to deal with this problem to any extent--to

any great extent? Or to any degree at all?

S: No, I think that, uh, I think that, uh, drugs .

I: I'm speaking of marijuana. It seems that in all--I'm told as I talk to

young people, and this is one of my fields, that it's all over in every

school and we just refuse to believe it, you know.

S: Yeah. Well. .

I: There are ways in which they can camouflage it, you know. And I say well,

how can you get by with it?

S: Oh, yes, there is, sure, there is.

I: And, uh, IVe been taught all sorts of tings which, you know, to

S: Well, there are a lot of people whose use of drugs did not result in any

over acts that brought attention to them. So as far as being a social problem

I had very few of them who actually came to me as a student who either because

of having trouble with academics or trouble with the instructors or with his







42


peers was an outgrowth of drugs and very few.

I: Do you think problems such as this with peers, with parents, with, uh

you know could cause a young person and I realize this again this is

a question that is a matter of opinion and one that can be debated,

certainly. But and I'm thinking of someding I ought to tell you as I

ask you this question. Causes sometimes young people say I smoke

marijuana because it's my parents' fault or I recall one doctor having

worked in the elite part of New York to make a living to work in the

ghettos--nothing to help kids on drugsand one kid came in and said my

psychiatrist influenced him evidently--said my psychiatrist said I

smoke pot everyday, you know, because it's my mother and daddy's fault.

He grabbed him by the shirt and said, listen kid, when you realize

it's your fault and you take the blame for what you do that you're a

separate person from your mother or father. So, it's all then that you

can get help them or ever hope to get help.

S: Well, that's, uh, that's understood by people anybody who gets involved

with the science of psychology or adjustment or maladjustment. It's under-

stood that the person is refusing to accept responsibility. And, one of,

the typical reactions is to feel that they are a victim of hard luck and

an individual becomes mature when he realizes that it's not a question of

what kind of deal fte hands out to you but how you react to it, that counts.

And secondarily, that your ambition in life is misplaced if you're hoping

to eliminate tensions. Your objective is to learn to adjust to your tensions,

because human beings live on tensions. You would be very unhappy if things

were perfect that would be one of the inconsistencies of perfection. Life







43



would be meaningless if you had no problems. So it's a question of working

with them.

I: I have read that marijuana--of course, you know we can read anything and it's

ot gospel that the president had a committee studying this and I haven't

heard anything on it recently. I also read a book by a Harvard professor--

I can't recallof his name right off-- he was a clinical psychologist. He

called it "Marijuia Reconsidered" and it was subtitled up above it, "Let's

Stop Putting our--Let's take a mature look at Marijuana and stop putting

our kids in jail." And he was advocating making making marijuana legal,

something similar to the way alcohol beverage control is handled. In other

words, you know, a certain age can only buy it and when you buy it--it's

not real sure it doesn't have battery acid in it or chlorox or that kind of

thing. Well, any kid on the street- .- --teachers in r

County and I'm told that even in the third grade there and of course, you

know that's a mobile society more or less. Some of the kids are on pot--

smoke it in the back room and they have been caught doing it. Uh, what

do you see, would you be for legalizing it, controlling it--to the extent

that?

S: No, I, uh.

I: Some say it's more dangerous some say it is not an dangerous as alcohol.

I mean, it is not as addictive unless it's a psychological thing.

S: Well, I have talked to a lot of people in New York, and the large metropolises

as well as down in the local area here. And, they're off the behi--they're on

a tangent. When you talk to them about marijuana, well they say it's not

as bad aa liquor for you. Well, if they think liquor's bad for you, fine.

But that doesn't prevent marijuana from being bad for you also. Now, there

are sub, uh, there's a word that doctors use for sub, uh. .a fever, I mean







44



an indisposition that's a little below levels where you notice it. For

instance, people that drink too much--many of them are not absent from

work but they don't have the initiative; they don't have the imagination;

They don 't have the energy. They're just there. They have headaches and

hangovers and there's qcetlst losses you could say if you could measure it,

an immeasurable loss to society from people in that category. Now people

who have .taken marijuana even if they can persuade themselves that it

hasn't done long-range damage (0id I believe there's some evidence

starting to 4 in now that it's been on long enough. They still

haven't been themselves, 100%.

I: But the young people maintain that they get more involved--it turns

them on. For instance, I was talking to a young man--his thing was music.

He was a. I think he had won second or third place in some contest, trumpet

or saxophone or something like this. He said he could play better if he

smoked marijuana. Uh, is this an illusion of the mind, you know, one of
l kyh0f
those things. Now, I have had experience. enough with aledel to know

a lot of times I can feel better. I think, but then looking,back sometimes

you know, you take a sociable drink and you can relax a little more or

something like this.

S: Well, I tell you, I'll give you a couple of examples. Of course, I'm. .

yes, in a way I might be a good person to ask this question because I've

been exposed to a lot of things. I've lived on the south side of Chicago.

As a matter of fact, I was thinking a while ago mentioning the black people

often will come to--give you a speech and say, well, of course, you don't

understand discrimination. Well, discrimination's where you find it.

And right after my father died--I lived in South Chicago in the toughest

neighborhood and I've seen discrimination just as well as any of the others.







45



But, anyway, getting back to your physical condition. My father was a

physical fitness buff in spite of his six languages and all of that. And

I think you can take enough time to be in good health and still pursue

mental activities that are worth while in helping society progress. Uh,

I'm sixty-seven years old--I'm now carrying an average of about 190 in

bowling. I don't know if you've ever bowled.

I: Oh, yes. I wouldn't tell you mine, I guess that.

S: And, uh, I fence and I do these things. And people say well, that's

subjective, maybe not everybody else can do it. But, I have made an

effort to take care of myself. Uh, and health wise I think it's important

to--I don't think you were born into the world and needing crutches.

Aed I think that whenever you're doing anything like that, you get a

feeling--yes, I remember now what I was thinking of--you do get a feeling

of euphoria under certain circumstances. For instance inow my wife and I

and my daughter and son--we're all pilots. We have our own airplane and

we do some flying. RNS-Fhe Federal Aviation Administation has established

the 10,000 feet as a fort of break away point. As soon as you hit 10,000

or especially if you go above it, you've got to think in terms of getting

additional oxygen. Now, and it's particularly important if you are a smoker

and they also--they say there should be 24 hours between bottle and throttle.

In other words, you should have a 24 hour break after you've had any imbibing

of intoxicating liquors, because it has a deleterious effect on your reactions

in your systems. But strangely enough, when you start running little bit

short on oxygen, they call it anoxia. Uh, you gradually, unknowingly become

very self-confident, so you're no judge of whether lack of oxygen is helping








46



ou; you're no judge of whether marijuana is making yourself feel more.

IAT musician$ thinks it feels more. But I think that's a matter of your

mental approach--same way with alcohol. Some people--we've had one pa tell

us--well, I admit alcohol is not good for you but I know that one drink

makes me really feel alive. But the tests show that your reactions slow

down. Now another thing too, if you don't smoke and you don't drink, like

my wife and I, we have flown at 12 and 13,000 feet, we haven't noticed any

difference at all. Now, it's true that if we had done it for a long period

of time, we might have gradually become more confident even in spite of the

fact that we were in good health and you see, your body, if you don't smoke

or don't drink or haven't drunk recently, your body is able to utilize more

of the oxygen that is available. But all those factors are indirectly build

up an image to you of what you can do with your body with or without stimulates

and with and without sedatives and I know.

I U I /a' I: Sort of like the -Jonathan Livingston Seagulls-I don't know if you've seen

the book.

S: Oh, we loved it. Yeah, it's great.

I: I was going to say I thought your grandchildren certainly would be--as he was

soaring to fly higher and higher and this kind of thing.

S: Oh, I think that is a wonderful book--it deserves to be bestseller.

I: Yeah, I thought it was really beautiful in the sense of an attitude toward

life that. ..

S: Um, hum.

I: I wanted to ask you about the, you know the population of the -------is

what--2200 or something like that?








47



S: Well, it was but has gone down this year and it has most all over the state

on account of b"r t r- z t

I: Well, as compared to the total population, I think the Indian population

is 200 and here in, you know, comments from the Indian community of Lumbee,

they feel that somehow this is discrimination. What can you say about this?

Certainly there are answers and there are reasons and maybe justifications

and maybe not It there's a definite correlation I feel here and .

S: Well, of course this is one of those things where an institution makes a

transition gradually and as far away from one qZEe to another. It was

the first public l supported Indian school in the state. And at one time

it was at high school level because their education is not up to--there has

been a1 lpt of prejudices in the past. Then it was ina urated as an Indian

.je1ov hool, which meant it was giving teaching certificates. Then for a few

years when I first came here it had become a four year college and then it

seemedto be in a strategic spot to be utilized as one of these regional

universities. The legislature felt that it would be nice if we could spot

institutes of higher learning, meaning beyond the bachelor degree in such

a way around the state that no student who wanted graduate work would have to

drive more than fifty miles to get taFe. And we're not too awfully far from

the South Carolina border, but it was suitable and we already had the in-

stitution here so that designated as a university, a regional university, not
A
a regular full university in that sense yet. And so from a time when they felt

was their own school and they felt so much sentiment about Old Main because

many people contributed his own labor to laying the bricks--others contributed

money to helping construct the place- hey thought at the pEesent time, uh,

it is not an Indian school. However, I always felt that if made sure that the

secondary schools prepared a student properly, when he entered a profession







48




in Pembroke State that he would be able to carry himself through to success.

I: Past the college entrance....

S: Yeah, past the college entrance exam. Now there have been various schools O

O'cig, ^ metimes the twirT felt, oh well, in order to give them a break they

ought to be allowed to come in with the lower SAT score.

I: Perhaps on the college opportunity program. ?

,S: Yeah, they had college opportunity program to let them build up during that

summer--that's a solution to it. I think we shouldn't discourage them from

going but I think we need to insure that there-ere primary schools and that

theeL are secondary schools are up to the standard. You know. .

I: You say they are up to standard or they are not?

S: I say that we should make sure that they are. Now..

I: That perhapsis one of the reasons why they find it harder to cope.

S: Yes, absolutely

I: Even though they get in--it's still a little harder it seems for some of

them.

S: They've got a normal I.Q. which means your aptitude rather than your

achievement but if you don't have a good school, i mean if they don't have

proper foundation, they'll have difficulty with higher education. And you

know we're discovering that education starts awfully young--you're learning

in the home--four years old, five years old. They have----------------

I: I think it was recently said education begins in the crib and I'm kind of

inclined to agree with that--tere's so much of it that we miss.

S: Oh, absolutely. .

I: We've forgotten but it's there--it never leaves you know.






49



S: Yeah, when you watch a baby learn to do things like open a box, push a ball,

or anything, you can watch his mind work and there comes a time when he can

solve a problem and prior to that he couldn't or she couldn't. And there are

many things you can watch them if you are observing a child at home. V.Jce

go through this learning process. As a matter of fact, the Amei aA

Magazine, the Parents igazine had a wonderful. You used to be able to buy

a book for them in which you could keep a record of your child until 16 years

of age and if you had more than one child, you could compare them and see how

they went through the learning process




END OF SIDE THREE







50



I: This is side four of a continuation of an interview with Colonel Frederick

Weber. My name is Marilyn Taylor. I am recording for the Doris Duke Foundation,

the American Indian Oral Studies Program under the auspices of the University

of Florida, with Dr. Samuel L. Proctor as director. Do you think this is

good comparing children, or how do you feel about it?

S: Well, I think everything is valuable if it's kept in context.

I: For records sake, or really are you comparing it?

S: Well, I think if you keep it in context. For instance, some of. a child's

uh, progress or activities if it varies from the others and you discovered

that it had a certain illness or broke a leg or a hand, anything that might

have effected it, then you understand what happened, of course, then you're

not trying to force it to do something and it's at that moment, incapable of

doing. There are .lots of people that are afraid of tests. They feel that.

I mean tests as qualifications. you know, strangely enough, this is unbelievable,

this Board of Education--I think mainly because of the superintendent of public

instruction. They had complaints aboutthe National Teacher's Examination.

And they just decided to discard it last year. they. I'd forgotten whether

they needed to get the assembly. the general assembly to approve it.

I: Do you think. I think discrimination was the word they used, you know

blacks and other minority groups, uh, the standards, the school standards

were not up to ours, knowing that the white had been exposed to the. you

know. the better standard of education.

S: Yeah, but by the time he's had four years of college, if the college can

graduate him, then he should be able to pass the National Teacher's Examination.

And I feel as though it's the buyer's market. For instance, if there is a .

if there are more teachers available than there are, uh, vacancies. Well, I






51



think society owes it to itself to have some method for selecting the

best teachers. I mean, it's .life is that way. And then these others,

uh, either. I mean some aren't. .that process can take care of everybod3D

if they aren't' able to pass teachers' examinations, then, I know any number

of solutions. Maybe they shouldn't be in teaching, maybe if they had had

a good, uh, an analysis, evaluation by the counselor or the placement officer

which is jobs I've had. They might say, well, you're. .it would be desirable

if you were doing something else whether than trying to teach. But anyway,

they discard this because some people felt that, well, if I take that darn

thing and. it's sort c like an admission against interest. You're not

required to incriminate yourself in a law case, but.

I: You thought it's sort of a. it's a threat against ego, you know.

S: Yes, a threat against ego. But we're not supposed to be concerned with

W if we're planning to have our children to be properly educated so society

will be able to solve the ecology problem in the year 2000. We're just

short-changng ourselves if we're going to do that. Uh, when I was commanding

a training regiment at Fort Jackson one year, I checked the records of the

officers and one of them was an officer who had an I.Q. of 97, which B just

about average, 100 is average. Well, I found that he was extremely valuable

in our training program but not as a teacher. Uh, others could teach the

scholastic elements of s education of the troops, but he was useful be-

cause there were many things that he could do. He was very dependable; he

was motivated; and he made a good company officer. There are many things

you can do besides teach.

I: These problems among the.Lumaess--you know they have several movements

of trying to unite the Indians you know, the AIM, the Indian movement, several

others, this kind of thing. You being a military man, there might be some







52



analogy here that p4d I said perhaps, I'll ask you. Uh, the complaint

has been that they have not had the leadership that they need, and,

number one, why is it that our people, you know, the minority group, they

don't feel they have the leadership and like you talked about this

man, whose I.Q. is 97--it's important that we have leaders, but do you

see that fellowship is important, is it a key or an art. ?

S: Oh, yes.

I: Or. it's just as important. to. .

S: It's important, you see if you do as some European countries do. if

you show a person that he's a good chef or a good automobile driver,

chauffeur, whatever, you respect him for it, then he feels, um. what's

that word. .. what he is achieving--there's a word for it--oh, there's

actualization--sub-actualizing and then society tends to become well-adjusted

but if you tell everybody that they ought to have a chance to become college

president or anything. I'm not trying to say that that's any better than

the next thing--try to push them into something because it has prestige.

You see, that's an artificial way of increasing the motivation for somebody

to try to do something that probably would. he would be less happy doing

even though. See, a lot of people get into a less. into a profession

where they are less happy than they would be in some other even though

they'll get a passing grade or make a living who would be happier if they

were doing something else. We ought to have counseling--skillful counseling

all along the line and everybody in society should be trained and motivated

to help adjust the youngster as he or she goes along to become more and more

aware of what they would like to do and a source to satisfy their need for

recognition, their need for accomplishment, and their need for self-actualization.







53



I: In your dealings with Indians. on American Indians or. because you've

had "sTE experience with Lumbee. Lumbee Indians --you've been in Pembroke

now how many years--did we establish that. if we did we could .

S: Well, I was involved as a member of the faculty for five and one-half years.

I: Five and half years. And you've lived.me .. ..

S: And my daughter, and my granddaughter, and my wife took courses there, so

I was exposed to it.

I; Did you find a feeling of apathy or a feeling of inferior--I guess I

probably--for lack of better words, say inferiority complex as compared
h C V-C-
to maybe the whites and the few blacks we ad, you know--the blacks just

kind of came in gradually and they didn't make much of a showing at first.

It was the first white and Indian and a few blacks --a lot more now

but I don't know the exact number of percentage.

S: Well, wherever you have discrimination the minority that's being discriminated

against develops a form of class inferiority complex. And I've seen it

here, yes, among the Indians and the wS .

I: I know. '- '----------g this answer. I don't know'how to deal with

it altogether except to agree with him perhaps and try you know, just to be

a friend--in talking with them, they'll tell me something about--they can

remember their father going to Lumberton perhaps he can spend his money

over there for. .in a department store but he couldn't buy a hamburger or

go get a coke at the same counter where the whites could or use the restroom

that the whites could and evgr' s has been conditioned, you know and then

taught -as they came up and even though they come from what we would say--

getting back to the class again--it really woulk't be an affluent society

but it would be well off, you know, certainly better than some of the white.

communities that they feel threatened by. But I guess this. you don't know







54



what's like to be an Indian.

S: Oh, well that's what the blacks always say too.

I: Yeah, so how do you answer this? Trne, I don't think unless you've

lived, even ii- art-Indian as I am, if you haven't been oriented into

the Indian, you know, I was mainly brought up into the white community.

I don't think you really, truly feel what they're saying and I can feel

that they are saying the wrong thing.

S: Well. .I think that---I'm very optimistic about human intelligence.

For instance, I, uh, there are many times when I'm aggravated with the

press because they get so darn inquisitive, you know, and act like they're

the messengers of the prophets and the people have the right to know and

all that. But they're human beings and they're just as sB as anybody

else. And yet, I've noticed this--they can draw into--and I've been in

many foreign countries. They can go into a situation, especially where there's

some reason for them to come there. There's an emergency--maybe there's

an earthquake or a rebellion or something. They can come in and size up

the situation and do a remarkably good job. They make mistakes, Of course,

but they can report something-to our people back home--that our people did

not know. They can certainly give them the skeleton of what the situation

is and therefore, I feel that people can be motivated to rise above themselves

too.

I: It seems almost a defeatist attitude, uh, when you don't know what it's

like to be an Indian as if they had resigned themselves.

S: I saw a tri-racial board.

I: Rather than to take pride. 1i J I '/" .

S: In this area and, uh, one of the minority races, so-called minorities thought

that he wasn't qualified to be the head man or the supervisor of the group.







55



S: He felt that the white man, naturally, was better qualified than he, and

although it might have true, still, he should have ambition to be able to.

For instance, if he isn't too totally unqualified, if he could manage to

land the job as supervisor, he could learn as he went along or at least

we should have him not shortchange himself against the possibility of

improving with the future qg-through application.

I: Tell, us, Colonel Weber, what your plans are for the next few months

in this, uh, Republican trying to get voters to register Republican

and your interest in Robetson County--this is your area you're working

in--so you will be dealing with Indians as well as blacks and whites.

And you'll be dealing with all three races. What ..in other words, briefly

tell us kind of your plan, your objectives, your goals, for this program.

And I don't know if we got. you're the head of the Republican party of

Robefson County. So your first objective to get voters--get people to

register?

S: Well, we've been talking--we always talk about the day will come when we'll

have candidates for every office. The day will come when we have a Republican

governor--well, that's happened. And, uh, we have a project now which I think

is very optimistic about, because the state chairman has gotten together with

the national committee and they've worked up a program which is based on

successful experiences around the country and it involves the idea of getting

people to register in our party or to transfer their registration to our party

because of the fact that so many voted for our candidates--what few candidates

that we had. And I think we get a lot of momentum from, like on April 2, we're

going to, uh, announce it over the T.V's and the radios and in the papers







56



that the program. .. that the campaign has started and it will last

44 days from then on. And we expect to run it like we do during the
"#1 bvei/er rcvn5
campaign where we'll have a headquarters and we'll have alaeam operation,

which is a nickname for having a battery of phones, three or four or five

telephones and people telephoning on a telephone campaign and then another,

another branch of the drive will be door-to-door canvass and we're going

to have teams of two. We've found three just takes too much talking and

one isn't as strong so a team of two and match them up skillfully so

they reinforce each other and with these teams of two, we'll get people

to like where they. .if they admit they've voted Republican for years

and a lot of them tell us that then appeal to their logic--to the logic

of having, helping have a two-party system.

I: Would you excuse me? / i-_

S: O.K. I think we were interrupted there but go ahead we can pick that up.

I: Well, our ideal is not to destroy the Democratic party. le feel that the

element, the idea of a two-party system is rather sound. Uh, we don't have

positive proof that democracy can be made to operate as a permanent government

in each country although we've done rather well. We've gone a couple hundred

years but we do know--notice that on tie hand where you have autocratic rule,

in effect one party or even one party doesn't vote, you just have, you know,

a semblance of voting. You have certain disadvantages and on the other hand,

in a country like France where they have 18 or 20 parties, they have so many

splintered groups, it's hard to get anything done. So always having coalition

governments and emergencies from time to time and the leading political figure

is being. changing every few.months or once a year--it gives you a lack of
continuity. ou now, candidates come and o but the ower structure remains
continuity. 4ou know, candidates come and go but the power structure remains,







57



this is my theory, and it's pretty well-documented. If you have two power

systems, structures, then you've got the. all te competition there and

"- --------trying to produce in order to satisfy the citizenry.
if
But if you've got one party, I thinkAthe Republicans had been in power for

75 or 80 years, the situation would be analagous to what it was with the

Democrats, because human nature is that way you've got to have something

goating to do better than you would if you had everything your own way.

And if you have two power structures, they'll both try to nominate suitable

candidates and, uh, as you know, there's a lot of--there'p a lot of appointments,

there's a lot of economy. economics and finances with government, as well as

with political groups. And they're try to spend the money properly and it'll

tend to cut down on boondogging and the state will progress--this if our feeling.
A
So we feel that we've got some good taking points.

I: Colonel Weber I want to thhnk you for your most enlightening interview. It

seems that thetime has been too long--almost an imposition on you but still

at the same time, I'm almost ashamed to have you stop because of the interest

and the contributions and'the expressions that you have given as. not only

to comments concerning the Lumbee Indians, uh, specifically, but as our county

as a taS- and how it effects the Lhmbee Indian politically, educationally,

and in many other ways. I think you've given us all some good philosophy for

life. toward life. I think it's interesting and inspiring to have your

optimistic view and for myself on behalf of the Doris Duke Foundation

and my consultant here in this area, Mr. Lew Barton, and the director of the

program, Dr. Samuel L. Proctor, I want to thank you for your te you're

most kind, to take this amount of time to give to this program d again we

say thank you and we want to wish you Godspeed and good luck in your future

endeavors.

END OF TAPED INTERVIEW





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