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Title: Interview with Walter Pinchbeck
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00007047/00001
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Title: Interview with Walter Pinchbeck
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
 Subjects
Spatial Coverage: Lumbee County (Fla.)
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00007047
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lumbee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LUM 57A

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
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Full Text



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This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida










LUM 57A
Walter Pinchbeck
by Lew Barton/ Marilyn Taylor
18 1973- Date of Interview
Transcriber:DWS


LB: I am Lew Baton, interviewing for the Doris Duke, American Indian Oral


History Program. Today we are here in apartment sixteen in College Terrace


in Pembroke, North Carolina and we are favored by the presence of Mister


Walter Pfchbeck who is a Cree Ind ian, but who has spent many years here in iC.


Lumbee Indian Community and whom we consider to be one of ourselves


And one of our best friends. Mr. Pinchbeck, would you give your name


and spell it so our readers and our listeners could know because they might


not understand spelling. Besides the girl has to type this off. Would you


spell your full name for us please.


WP: Walter J. Pinchbeck. W-a-l-t-e-r J. P-i-n-c-h-b-e-c-k.


LB: How old are you sir?


WP: I'll be sixty-nine in two weeks.


LB: Sixty-nine in two weeks. You know that you told me a very colorful story


once, which I ran in the newspaper about how you came to this community


and how you. I believe you said that Old Main was the first building that


you saw. Would you mind relating that for us. I love that story.


WP: It's quite a story. I want to I'd like to go back from October '31 'til


I










LUM 57A


WP: the December the 8, '31. '28 to '31 It was a hectic few months from


October. I left the Phillippine Islands on the twenty-eighth in October


Came back to the United States by way of China, Japan, and Honolulu. I


went AWOL in Cheyenne for two days. I jumped ship in Japan. I got put


in the guard house for two days in Honolul u and got discharged in


San Francisco in November. I hobbled three thousand miles and came to


Pembroke.


LB: Was that the Army?

in
WP: I was the Army all the time except when I got discharged. And when I


got there, not knowing a soul, in Pembroke, but knowing of it through


somebody I had met in the service, I got off freight train in front


of Old Main. That was the first building that I had ever seen. And the


next building I'd seen was a little bg cabin right now where \





LB: This is what we call the scout cabin?


WP: Scout Cabin. American Legion Hut. That building was built by the


Legionaires of World War I. They built that


I took it over when everybody had left it and repaired it and we used

it weekly with Voy-couts.

2










LUM 57A


WP:

LB: And you decided to make your home here. Did you.?


WP: I did not decide to make my home here, because at the time I came here,


we were in the height of the pression. Where a man couldn't make


anything at all. He couldn't work. He could not make money for love nor


money because there was no money. So I decided that I would leave this


hard luck country which was hard luck everywhere.


LB: It was hard all over, wasn't it.


WP: It was hard all over. It was hard all over the world, because when the


United States getshard up, the world is hard up. So I rambled back and went


slam to the Artic Circle. In '32. And I drifted back when it got cold.


and rambled all the way down the west coast, the border of Mexico, and the

in
Gulf of Mexico. And I wandered right back here .;: Pembroke. There's some-


thing here that kept calling meback. So I left again and came back again.


Then when I came back again, then I met my wife. That messed up the whole


deal because I married her. ha! ha! ha! ha! She loved me. She loved me.


She was born and raised right here in Pembroke. And we married and that's


exactly how I came to this country, but after I got married, and I got


settled here, I got lonesome for what we call the amy* I used to be aT#ppe.


3










LUM 57A


WP: I use to be a cowboy. I use to be a logger.


LB: You were sort of a soldier of fortune.


WP: Soldier of Fortune just wherever I went I was a horse trainer


and I got lonesome for something like that. And something introduced


me into tie boy scouts. And I found out then what they wanted boy


scouts to do was to qualify for certain requirements* was all fitted into


the same kind of stuff that I had been doing.- Tieing knots, splicing


rope, cooking, camping, orge nization which I had worked in the Army,


and all that sort of thing so I jumped into the boy scouts.


LB: You loved the great outdoors.


WP: I loved the great out of dojrs. Wdd get out there and camp and those boys


make flap jacks, cook stew over a camp fire, and sleep on the out of doors,


pitch tents, use an ax, and and all that sort of
fell right
thing, you see, it it took most of feeling away from me. because had


something else to go into. And I spent thirty-five of my thirty-six years


of married life with those boys. Right there in Pembroke. We started





We just completed thirty-five years of scouting.

LB: Well, I know that you have been recognized nationally and as well as the


4









LUM 57 A


S S
LB: foremost scouting boy scout advocate, and leader. and how does this


measure up with other Indian groups. Are you the only nationally known





WP: Well, I tell you. Last two years ago, I was invited to go to Utah,


greater city Utah to a scout master's work shop there fora week and I


was invited to go there. Was given a free trip out there a plane


ticket, all expenses paid. Go there and spend the week there, and my


wife, also. And I wondered why they wanted me there. Well, naturally,


the boy scouts had my record. and they compiled all the reco and found


out two years ago that I was number one Indian Scout Master in the


United States.


LB: Oh, =aVF.-


WP: I had recruited more Indian boys in the United States than any other


Indian Scout Master had.


LB: And that includes all races, doesn't it?


WP: No, that just includes the Indians. because I ranked nineteenth in


the nation.

LB: Oh, I see.
LB: That's great.


WP: because you see scouting had been going on a long time before I got into it.


5









LUM 57A


WP: but so, but then, I've been it now for thirty-six years. Other


people had been in it fifty years. And as a result of that, they are


ahead of me, but now I'm worrying about that. The thing is that I am


nineteen over all. Two years ago. Still probably ninteen, maybe more.


because I'm still scouting.


LB: What kind of honor was it Mrs. Taybr was talking to you about and


congratulating now that it's mentioned in the paper. Can you tell us


about that?


WP: Well, that honor is a council award that they give to men who have done


outstanding work with boys. and they call it the Silver Beaver. And


I was the first Indian in North GotEty to get that award. I got that


award in '47. There had been two other Indians besides that that got


that award N. 4krIne. Of course, other people have got it, but I was


the first Indian to get that. They call that Silver Beaver Award.


LB: That's a great honor and I certainly congratulate you. Something that


you don't work for. you work at something and then out of the blue


they invite you to a banquet of some kind and then they make the award.
They don't tell you why you are getting it, and then they tell you why
But I was the first Indian to get that. They call your name.

you are getting it. Even if you don't know anything about it. Something

that you don't.. you work for I mean you're working at You're working fcr
6










LUM 57A


WP: something for a program, but you get the award without knowing anything


about it. until they call your name.


LB: Can we recap just a little bit and tell me something about your wife al


who she was before you married Your children and their names and ages.
'In-
WP:
WP: because we'd like to get everything like that. My wife was- formerly she


was Bertha Lowery. Her father's name was W. H. Lowery. Lived right on


the edge of Pembroke. In fact, most ofthe land that the college


owned ,she sold it to them. And her mother was Mrs. Clausy Lowery


She was a Maynard. Pete Maynard's girl. So we got married in '37


February we use to We had just had our anniversary in '36, I think.


And a s a result of that Union we have three boys and three girls


I have had four of my children born on the campus. on thecollege campus.


LB: buildings there. Because you worked for the University, for how many


years?


WP: I worked for the University for twenty-eight years and three months.

because
In fact, I never did work for the University, The day I retired, the


next day they the university. I worked for the college all the tin .


The public state college.


LB: And I know you took care of Old Main.

7










LUM 57A


LB: They might think of you as a custodian person, he one living person


who knows more about Old Main thqn anybody else.


WP: I loved it from below the ground from the ground on up, repaired that

n
building and took care of that building. I was superintendent of buildings


of grounds, It's something to think about. You jump off a freight


train in frontof a building and you wind up being superintendent of t.


LB: Yeah, it certainly is.


WP: ha.' ha.'


I get a kick out of that you know. I'll tell you one thing- as long as


a man wants to work, he can work.


LB: A material thing happened just today because Old Main after you worked


and the rest of us, preserved the building just today somebody arso d '


It was willful arson. /nd we watched the building burn and I know that I


felt terrible and I'm sure you did, too.

WP: I did, too.
WP: It drug on me, I'tell you. I looked at that building and I see so much


go through there. When I -.first knew the building why the high school


was there. It was lots of life, lots of history went through there.





8










LUM 57A

or
WP: It's just hard to describe, to even visualize, just what went


through that building, but when I started working there, I had one


hundred and one students. It got to one hundred and twenty-five.


Then, during the war, the army picked up our men and it got down to


eighty-five. That's the lowest we ever got, but we worked over there.


And that was the building I tell you it's really, *
A eli y--o5 t'sra----- _
(and women ; th
Actually, we broke all over the nation men6who-had been through there


and got there early education in high school and in college.


LB: Sir, I seem to recall that Dr. E. Stanley Jones was the nationally known
A

Methodist leader once held a couple of


WP: Yeah, I know, I remember him well. A wonderful speaker!


tB: We've had many dignitaries to ame there. Many famous people.


WP: Yeah. Well, we actually saved these people's home there.


LB: t gone up in smoke all of the woodwork has been


burned out of the building. Do you see any chance at all for restoration


as it stands?


WP: Well, they as I see it now, if I go back, Say about twelve years, I'm not


calling any names about engineers, but two state engineers and I we checked


that building over and they told me and they checked it. Now-yaorere

9










LUM 57A


WP: Weinstnments and like that checked that building over They said that


was That building had the best hull in the state, and they recommended


that we ,should take and clean out all that wood and get it out of there


and then rebuild it and then you would have the finest building in the state.


It's a foot thick. It's brick. It's not cinder block; it's brick.

didn't have
And Dr. Wells held with it a little bit, but he lost. He enough nerve


to go through with it or to push it. /Yale messed with it a little bit.


LB: Now these are former presidents 2


WP: Yeah, former presidents. Jo condemned it. Now, then, but when you consider


and go back and by gone days That's the time when we were a vast minority.


So to speak. When I came here, I discovered that I as the Indian Community.


There was a vast minority. Well, I had .. The first reason I like to


stay here was the friendliness of the people, the Lumbee Indians.


Not only their friendliness but their cleanliness. I don't say other Indians


aren't clean but these were the cleanliest, friendly est and most


educationist people that I had seen. In all my Indian traveling and I hd


listed sevety- five different tribes all over North America, say in Mexico


United States and Canada. I was making it igi-r book. I lost that

book.
10










LUM 57A


WP: in Kansas. I wish I had it. I wouldn't take a thousand dollars for it.


LB: This is the book you were writing.


WP: I was writing a book all right. And I went through a little place. I was


looking for a tribe in Kansas. It was extinct. Left my book in the stat ion-'


grabbed a freight train and got out of there. In-fact, ten hours later,


I couldn't find that book. Offerrred a twenty-five dollar reward for it and


never could find it. Money was short, too. So much for that. Anyway,


Old Main They continued to tell me could be built up, made a nice building


get that wood out of there. You've got to get that wood out of there.


and make it a fire proof deal like they made other buildings. are you know.

come up with
YOu .cement to make cement floors. Now, that building over there if it


ever got on fire, it won't be hard to stop because then you had that wind.

LB:
piling into it. ,Well, it was very high very unusually high.


WP: If that wind hadn't been high, they could have stopped it, but afterwards


there was so much, but I don't think that it's going to hurt the walls.


The other half. Somebody's going to come down here and


I'm not no judge of that right now. The walls is good good heavy wa3L


LB: Well, we hope and pray that we'll see Old Main restored yet.



11










LUM 57A


WP: It can be restored. Those columns. I repaired those columns.

under under
I went there and put sills .there. There's some awful good


timber under there. I would say. I'll tell you one thing- termites


couldn't do a cigarette. That's hard stuff. Termites couldn't do


anything with it.


LB: Well, I know that you have made many, many friends in the community here.


that we consider you one of us. You taught us much that some of our


people had forgotten. You haven't forgotten. Even you rphter you


taught our people good a good many of our people you taught so much.


We all look on you as a very worthy brother.


WP: I feel proud that you think that way.


LB: We do. And I know that when I say that, I speak for most of our people.


All of the people who know you, I've never heard anybody say anything

other than
r something good.


WP: Sometime, I'd like you to just spend an hour with me in that boy Ocout


hut. Now, that boy lout hut was built by the Legionaires of World War I.


It was used as a -- building for years by different groups and all


that sort of thing. And one time it needed a roof. And I put a roof on it

There was a meeting there and later on everybody abandoned that building.


12










LUM 57A

from
WP: I took it over. I asked permission, the Legionaires and of the ones


I asked, there was only one who knew me. That's Martin Luther Lyon, but

in there.
I have been their history. That goes way back to '29 I was just the


old books we used when there was a public library. I looked after all


that because that belongs. That can be made. and built. You want to


build that thing up, straighten that building up a little on the


outside. d make it because that building was four years after Old Main


was. It's the oldest building in town and should not be abandoned, but


I know one. It should be used. It's used weekly by boy scouts. Sometimes


twice a week. Other groups come in there and work, but we maintain a scout


troop and this scout troup has been running continuously now for thirty-five


years. And we have books and we have pictures. Terry Sanford, when he


was governor, spent fifteen minutes in there. And we had places there.


We got awards there. There's maids. There's veterans of World War I


in '29 There's history in that building. There are so many worthwhile


things to look after. And that could be made into a beautiful little


museum, when you coie to think about it. What do you think about it?

did
LB: I think that is a wonderful idea. By the way, you see the Indian

Museum over at St. Andrews? It opened just this past year.


13









LUM 57A


WP: No. I didn't see any.


LB: That's over in Lawern-bmrg just about thiry miles from here in case


our readers and listeners are wondering, but they do have one over there.


And it would be great if we could have one here.


WP: We could have one here if we had somewhere to put it. This building is


of course, too small for it. They talked about putting one over there


at the college. at the university, but I haven't seen so signs of it.


LB: What do you think of the Indian pageant that we have been working on


for about three years? And Andy Umberger has written a script called


strike at the Wnd, which gives the story of Henry Barry Lowry. Do you


think that this would be a plus thing for the Lumbee River Valley? Do you


WP: Yes, I believe it would. I'd say, for instance, afterall, you have your


community here. You have the Indian Community here and I don't think there's


any use going back and relating facts that showed where we were discriminated


against. I think that just something that should just be forgot. Let


by gones be by gones. And let's dwell on the future. The present will take


care of, but now let's look forward to the future. Do you see what I mean?


i6B Right.


\vP. If I was to go and let myself worry about what happened in the past, it


would drive me nuts. 14









LUM 57A


WP: I'll tell you one thing. I'd just as soon just work on the future.


but still we can pick up things in the past to bring out and record


some of our Indian history, our early history, you see.


LB: Right.


WP: Don't you think so?


LB: By looking on the past we can get a better view of the present and the


future.


WP: Right. You are right about that. Now, I think that that would be


real fine, but let's take it step by step on that thing there. I think


we should. I think we should recognize in that pageant what the church


has done because afterall, you know, it's not too much. The church has


been a backbone of our country.


LB: Have you found the Lumbee Community to be strong in churches in religion


and sort?


WP: Well, I'll tell you- when you speak about that, yes, this fall


Lumbees are strong in their churches. In fact, there are more churches


around here than I'd seen any place in my in all my travels. When you


think about it. And this is the strongest church. They believe in


churches. I've been delving with churches quite a little bit, but now


15










LUM 57A


WP: When you speak about how strong a church is, you have to speak


about how strongly your figure is. Because the church is as

its that
strong as individuals. It's members so to speak. I think.overall


it's about as strong a church building as you find anywhere. Afterall,


people go to do one thing- they're going to be born into the world and


die and they're going to meet frustrations and they are going to meet


set backs. They're going to wind up leaning on something like a man


gots one leg he needs a pair of crutches so he has crutches so


therefore, a man gets into the twilight zone of his life, he gets


to think back on the days when he road like me and there was a time


when I was quite a guy and I use to ride in rodeos, ride the wildest


horses in the continent, roam the seas, but now, the old ticker won't

at the same
allow me to do that. It's not bothering me ,time.


When a man gets to seventy, he can't do the things that he use to do.


when he was twelve and thirty.


LB: Allright. You have led a very colorful and a very productive life. Do


you have any regrets at all?


WP: Not a bit.

LB: You'd do the same thing?

16









LUM 57A

WP: If I had it to do over again, I'd do te same thing.over again.


I'll tell you one thing- I always enjoyed one thing When I was


young, when I was young and the East would stop North. I would follow


the East. And I fo allow East as far as I could follow it. and you should

work and
be on the edge of the Arctic Circle. And I'd A do something. I


was always fascinated an illusion, I could always make me a dollar or two.


And I'd hang around up in that area where there was some money to be made


then whenever the gee-se started south, I knew it was time for me to start
V

south so I'd follow the geese sign.


LB: You'd start south, too.


WP: I never would follow the ducks because they've got no ear sense. I


followed the geese as far as I could follow them and be on the edge of


the rctic Circle. The geese would take you


all the way bwn to the Gulf of Mexico. And I'd hang on to it. When


the geese started a noise, I knew it was time to go North. Now that


was just a patterns) of life. I never had nowhere to go and I weren't in


no hurry to get there. I'd eat breakfast in one state, dinner in another


supper in another, and sleep in another. Sometimes span four states.

All within a thirty-four hour period.

17









LUM 57A


LB: Do you think that you got that casual attitude toward life. You know


an Indian enjoys life. He relaxes and enjoys life. Do you think that


you inherited from Indian forebearers?


WP: Yeah, I believe I did. because we're called the Crees. Didn't knao


much Crees. They ranged from Hudson Bay to Alaska. Oh the edge of the


Artic Circle.


LB: Good if they are Nomadic people.


WP: Nomadic people. They call them Nomadic Crees. And I guess that I got


it from them., but I just traveled a little further than most Crees.


I went to the Phillippines, China, Japan,


LB: You probably outdid all the other Crees.


WP: I out done all the oher Crees. Then, I rambled off here in North Florl a.


Well, I don't regret my *,. This country here is wonderful. Wonderful


people! We have People who do this and who do that, but taking a long


average all the way through I've been here ever since. I spent fort ly years


here. And I have never heard. I've never had a man or a woman say


a hard word against me.


LB: Isn't that great.


WP: And the hardest word that I ever said about anybody was to get after Poy
courts .
18










LUM 57A


WP: tut a mortgage on things as far as me getting to pull a knife on anybody,


to feel like hurting anybody, I never felt it amongst these people.


LB: Right.


WP: And these people are the best friends tht I ever had. When I was in a


tight and had to go home, this country rose up, this community and bought

and sent me
me a ticket1 to my home so that could come back.


LB: Oh, that's great.


LB: Oh, we couldn't do without ell, you could, but it wouldn't be the same.


without me, but you are going to have to dbwithout me. Because according


to the Bible you have only one more year to live, you know.


Well, let's hope that


IP; Mr. Lewis, it has been awful nice talking to you. Is there anything else


that I can say to you. Anything else, Do you want more about my children?


LEB Yes, I'd like to have their names and ages if you lie.


WP: I'll tell you what I've got. Three girls and three boys. My oldest girl


is Mary Alice. Leth see- If I was married in '37, she was married two


years later. Let me see. '39. '38. She was married in '38. That would


put her what? Well, let's see that would put her about thirty-five.



19









LUM 57A


WP: I can't tell you exactly what their ages are. Let's see. I can't remember


all tat. May Alice.


LB: She's in the public schools teaching.


WP: She teaches in the Central part of Virginia. e Jim, my oldest boy.

lives
He .in Kentucky. Louisville, Kentucky. He'd been in the Army.


He had a year and a half of college. He spent about six months in the


University in Fairbanks. At the university when he was in the Army.


Bud, my second oldest boy, he finished high school. He finished high


school twice. He finished in the Navy. He finished here in South Carolina.


And he lives in Maryland. And Sandra, my girl Sandra she's in Frankfort,


Kentucky. Her husband works out there. He's a computer. Works in that.


Then I have a girl named Helena. She finished college. She teaches home


economics. Then I got a boy named Francis. He put four years in the ir


rce. He went back in the Air force. Made a career out of it. He's at


Milton Air Force Base. Let's see. How many is that I've got? Did I


call out Mary Alice?


LB: All Right.


WP: Jim?


LB: Um,hum.


20










LUM 57A


WP: Sally?


LB: um,hum.


WP: Francis?


WP: um,hum.


WP: Lyn and Bud. Three boys. Three girls.


LB: Um,hum.


WP: Two of those boys got to be Eagle Scouts.


LB: Um,hum.


WP: One was a Life Scout, but in my family of four men we've all been in


military service.


1B: um,hum.


WP: I was in the Coast Artillery in the Philli pines. And Jim was in the


Regular rmy. Bud four years in the Navy. Francis was in the Air Force.


I think that that was a pretty good record for a family.


LB: Oh, yes, indeed.


WP: All of us was in the scouts. Francis he was in California. He's


working as assistant scout master of a scout troop there.


Jim was ssis tant scout master of a scout troup in Louisville, Kentucky.

Boys like scouting, you know. I raised them in scouting.

21











LUM 57A

LB: You told them to love it didn't you.
WP:
Yeah. They love it, too. And Burt, he worked %th the system with me


and said,when he settles down, he's going to be in the scout

somephce
troop,. too. work in scouting. All good craftsmen. Everyone of them good


craftsmen. Mixing, teaching, like that. Good teachers. Good instructors.


Well, now since you ame to this community, you've seen many changes.


take places haven't you. You've seen communities develop in some areas.


You've seen some things that used to be practised that isn't practised


anymore, in the way of discrimination. You've seen some of those


traditions change. New laws passed. New presidents go into office.


LB: Could you talk some about some of the changes you've seen take place


Wr1' Well, I tell you Mr. Lew. I don't like to mull over old th ings but


I've always been a free lance Indian. I never did live on the reservation.


Not to have you against them. My dad lived on the reservation. Cause


he said that the reservation was just too slow. My dad was a mechanic.


He was a blacksmith. He was a millwright. He set up farm bureaus and


things like that. Dad was a mechanic. He taught me to be a blacksmith,too.


And we didn't confine ourselves to the reservation. We stayed with the


reservation. Now the reservation is not against them except that on the


22










LUM 57A


WP: reservation. The reservation my way of seeing it robbed the Indian


of the initiative that he ought to have had. And the reason these Indians


the Lumbee Indians here in this section of the country are as far


advanced as they are ahead of any other Indian group of Indians of the

in
state is because we've had to compete against the white man andoing so


he used his own initiative. He worked hard for it. He had it tough

who
without. He worked hard. That's why you have men hereare doctors


and teachers and things like that. We have more Indian School teachers


here in this shared group of Indians than anywhere in


the United States. In other words in this country where we have free

e/ e
Ahterprise and we have free/nterprioe


Lb:


WP: And you use your own ingenuity. You put something on a silver plate


You had to dig what you got. You took care of your land and you


dug your land and you ploughed your crops and you sowed your stuff

You were a
and at the same time you were a minority. segregated people


You didn't mind that. Your people from way back They didn't mind it.


They dug in.

LB: They advanced in spite of all tihe

23










LUM 57A


WP: And they advanced yourselve educationally to the point where our

that
Indian town, ,people didn't like in the countyaas come to be


the center of education in R nhini' County. We have a university in


our town. Isn't that something to think about?

em
LB: It certainly is. I can rember and I am sure that you can remember


when only the Lumbee Indians were allowed to attend this school.and


then it was widened to include enrollment from other tribes, from


other groups of Indians. And then, finally from White students and


Black students. Now it's fully integrated.

that
Do you feel that this our bringing this to pass because we actually


helped some ourselves to bring this about. Do you feel that this is


a contribution that we made not only to the White community but to the


community at large? Do you think that PSU represents something like that?


WP: Yes, I certainly do. I'll tell you why. Well, for one thing. When I


came here, it is Pembroke Sate College for Indians.


LB: Sam Lowery takes the credit for taking four Indians off the sign.


I don't why he wanted to do that but.,,.




WP: Well, he can have it as far as I am concerned. Cause now. We confined


24










LUM 57A


WP: ourselves. We were confined to Pembroke State College for Indians.

That meant just for Indians.
Just for Indians. Well, the Indians that we had here, believe it ornot,

Some" of them
came here, and some of them didn't A lot of them went


somewhere else. And we have a few Indians from out-of-state. very few.


In fact, you can count them on one hand. Well, if you had that


you would probably be just a little minority, but by entity even with the


Black, then with the White. mbat brought in more people and the more


people you had then the more money talk you could have. to talk with.


Then, by bringing more people in here, you had people with ideas in one


section of the country that would help you out. And in the meantime,


it was competition in there, academically, you see. Now to get badk to


the changes of the thing, from my back, well, like I say, I've been an


Indian I've been a traveling I'm still an Indan for that matter


You talk about I recognize that. I got pulled in Court in Portland, Oregon)


one time, living on a freight train there and give me a ticket and


charged me with vagrancy. The judge said it's against the constitution


of the United States to charge an Indian with vagrancy. You have to


thing of something else that they can charge him with or turn him loose.

25










LUM 57A


WP: And I got arrested down in Indian California for the same thing


and they turned me loose in Keystone there. All that's beside the


point. The thing of it is I came here and I have never been turned


down here for anything in my life. I asked a woman if she would carry


me and she turned me down. That's still beside the point. The thing


that for me to vote. o.- the Unite States and to say that


I can't give you something to eat because you're Indian. That happened


here in Robinson County. I couldn't get a fountain &occola because


I was Indian a4d so therefore that has been changed and we're not


holding that against anyone right particularly now. Now, we're


more what call equitable Tie thing is getting to be on the fair side.


Nowwe are all unequal. We should have been. ll the time. You see.


bFcause I tell you one thing there's nobody that loves Indian girls


better than the Indian or a White man. And I tell you one thinIg


we all love one another. And when you come color don't nake no difference


about. it. You see, so afterall Well, I'm not holding nothing -


What happened in the past. All I want now is to take care of my present


and look forward to the future. look forward to the future. We Indians


can stick together as Indians We can swing a lot of votes in N.C.

26









LUM 57A


LB: All right.


WP: Any other question?


Sell, this is SIDE TWO of the interview with Mr. Walter J. Pinchbeck.

couple of
I want to ask you just a A questions and we'll conclude this interview.


You're very kind to give us this time. And we were talking just a little


bit about the future of Indian Community and if there are any hopeful


signs in your estimation. )o you see a bright future for the Indian people

\WP:
or do you see that they may erress,or.what? Well, personally speaking now .e


rP: I want to go back just a little bit and the time when this country was


when we wee segregated They segregated people.


LB: UM,hum.


WP: There was a church rewntMh. There was a church for the White. There

J or
was a church for the colored. And when you went to red-schooles some


other places, there was a choice: toilet for the White and a toilet for

colored, a toilet
the for the Indians.


LB: That's all right.


WP: Well, their segregation was a three-way deal. You won't find anywhere else


in North America, except right here incihas&n County. Well, when we went


to scouting, there was a scouting program for the Whites. There was a


scouting program for the Colored. 27










LUM 57A


WP: Some place they had a cappigiprogram for them, but there was no


program for Indians. We made our own program.


LB: Ydu opened up an entirely new thing theq,didn't you?


WP: Yep. For ten years we were a segregated people, I mean we took our


own camp spot. We went to Virginia to camp. We went to the western


part of the state and done our camping. And soon I'll have to call a


name now. His name was Ray Swayze. He's national chairman for iteraro


for the Boy Scouts of America and him and I engineered it so we broke that


segregation deal and integrated with the Whites. After we integrated, there


was problem there because then, that give us competition among us and we all


got to be real good friends. Now, scouting can break a lot of barriers.


Scouting. Scouting is part of education. If we're going to continue,


to progress, we've got to be prepared to compete against the world if the


world is going to be educated so we have to compete against that.


but there is one thing that I want us to remember. I want to tell you a


little story. Maybe, it will go along. There's a man had a farm. He


had a sixty-foot well. Dry well. Abandoned well. And this mule fell in


the well. and he was done there with his head wobbling around. You


couldn't get him out of there. The man thought so much of the mule that

28










LUM -57A


WP: he didn't want to shoot him. so he decided that he just take and


pour a bunch of dirt on top of the mule and just let the mule just


smother. lo death. Die quietly. So sent a bunch of dirt in there.


on top of the mule. Well, the dirt got down in there and chicken


around and the dirt got under the mule's feet. He kept coming up


and he dug up about four or five inches so he put some more dirt there

on
and he keptcoming up and finally that mule came out of that well.


LB: Um,hum.


WP: Let out a he,haw and took off. The point that I want to ring across


is this: let's keep our feet on higher ground, which is good education.


Religious education. Anything in the way of the education line, anything

it
that's dirty or uncommon sweep under our feet, keep it under our

advance
feet. Then, we can be higher and ^higher mentally, physically,


and spiritually.

('quite
LB: The Boy Scouts of America seem to have followed a.few things from the


Indians themselves.


WP: They certainly have. There's a lot of stuff there in the Boy Scouts


of America book that was borrowed from the Indians.



29











LUM 57A

some
LB Uh,huh. That's great and I went to speak to Little Boy Scou ts. I


don't remember just what they're called over in Fairfield.

SLB: Cub Scouts,
SWP: Cub Scouts /but they had taken the names of Indian tribes. This is


Done all over. It's done universally. I think they called themselves


and this particular group called themselves the ascaloras and I had


a very wonderful time informing them along with my son Ricky,


something about our people back home and about the Tuscaoras, proper.


Tusca oras of New York State, I am talking about. As you know, the


Tusca/or/ was originally of southeastern North Carolina, but later


migrated to Niagara Falls, New York-to that area, here they still are


today. I am certainly glad that one Indian, at least, has excelled in


the Boy Scouts of America and this was sort of a natural for you out

0
there. I mean you just fitted into this program


WP: Well, you see, it all happened that I was here. Well, I married


my wife. She was born and raised right here. And she decided to make


it my home. And I was lonesome for something that I Lhad been used to


like riding wild horses and trapping and digging for gold and the rain

2a1 tkal sA- of 1h11
and the cold and logging and rambling and messing around. You know,



30









LUM 57A


WP: give us an outlet, you know, to come over here. By having some


odd experience, that give me organization experience and I'll never


forget when we started this scout troop. I said, "Boys, I'll tell you


one thing- I don't know a thing about it. I know that he's supposed to


be a boy. That's all. I said, "Let's get our books together. I said
A
lets A ,we
Boys,.follow me. Let's see what we can make out of it. And so, them
A

boys have been following me ever since. I get generations of boys over here.


Boys who use to be,their dadd ies use to be in he scout troop. They're


with me right now young boys.


LB: Mr. Pinchbeck, about how many? Can you remember back how many boys your


had in your charge?

w
WP: We figured we tried to figure out here ahile back. It was over a thousand


anyway. A thous and boys.


LB: And there wasn't a boy scout troop here at all when you came.


WP: No,there wasn't one.


LB: Well, I know it had done wonders for boys in helping them their development,


helping them to be independent and that sort of thing. and you certainly


have a lot for which to be proud.


WP: Well, I'm proud. I wouldn'tlake anything for my little old boys. In age


31










LUM 57A


WP: we get aleng all right. -Gvef Laughler down here- seallP y- L.l.Ld t Paul


and myself are the three Charter members of our troop.
LB: Is that right?
LB: Willie French Laughter, you say?

Lockley,
WP: Willie French Paul and Kirk We all three
LB: Locklear.
WP: There are others, you know, but they are tie ones living here now.


at this time.


LB: Great. 6T?^- .jQr>





I wonder if there are some other things. Uh, we wondered if there were


some other things you wanted to comment on. in the nature of what's


going on in the community today. Like double voting. Do you consider


this to be an unfair thing or is there something that we can do about it.

V'VPWell,
to rectify matters? What are your comments on thatt? Ii tell you. I


!1' haven't Somebody asked me the following year to say something about


that and I told them. I said Anytime that I get t:+l- b ..i.k


I like to know what I am talking about in fact. iIo telling what


I'd keep my mouth shut. And I haven't spent too much time on that.


for some reason or other. I read a lot but I haven't spent too much.


I get to shop I do that duty. but I haven't spent too much time

32









LUM 57A


WP: dwelling on that particular subject. Then, I'd rather not make any


comment on that.


LB: Right.


WP: I know more about it, I'd say something about it. I like to know what

LB:
I am talking about before I make any comments. Do you think that the


quality of education haj improved much


among the Ind ian Sch ools?


kP: Very much so. very much so.


WP: I'll tell you when it started to improve 1iSas' Sputnik. Do y@u


remember Sputnik?


LB: Oh, ye s. Indeed.


WP: Well, it started to improve stated getting tough. As I could tell it.
-five
On the average, I have about thirty or forty boy scouts who go through my troop


yearly. annually, you know. Say, if I wanted to have a meeting in the


middle of the week, 7 J) t C J' jHA <-C


S'

getting tougher all the time. I'd go in debt for our meeting only on


Friday night *v *


LB: Um,hum.

33










LUM 57A


WP: because them boys have work to do. and I can tell the brand of education


that they are getting right now. They are doing a whole lot better.

do
Iey got to ,better because the world is getting tougher. And you


think that this is in part into the fact of competition

-p^r 4ptd *'
LB: And you think that this is in part due to competition with other students?


WP: Competition.


LB: In business, school, or whatever.


WP: I'll tell you one thing: if a student has the ability and has the


knowledge. I'll tell you one thing: You can place them anywhere and he's


at ease, but if he doesn't know, he's out of luck.


LB: Right.


WP: You got to be prepared. You've got to e prepared.


LB: Would you like to momentt about the population explosion or the population


increase You know, Indian people have been spoken of generally as the


people who have large families and that sort of thing. Do you have any


comments along those lines?


WP: Well, I think that I believe that I have no story on that because


I believe that every family should have two children at least, You should


justify yourself being in the world, but I believe that through varied


-4










LUM 57A


WP: programs that they have, healthwise that they should at the very least


to bring a child into the world. If when you bring one into the world,


you've got that responsibility takin care of it if you don't take the


responsibility somebody has to take it.


LB: Right.


WP: Committee has to take it. Somebody had to take it because the child


is there. You can't throw it out into the woods like you do a pig or wild


a dog. You got to be taken care of so therefore you have it.


LB: Right.


WP: I think that that through education that that can be curtailed or gotten


governored you know, I we ought not to have as many children as we have.


As many as we have, I don't think good lot of children.in our country.


LB: Yeah.


WP: They had some because when I went to work at the Bridge School, they had


four hundred seventy and now they have over a thousand for their


more people been


LB: There's been an increase somewhere, hasn't there?


WP: Somewhere.


LB: Do you think, therefore, that we should seek to curtail our population

35










LUM 57A


LB: increase through education.


WP: Yes, through education.


LB: uh,huh.


WP: Not too easy to db though.
The Japanese are doing it. Maybe extensively.


LB: uh,huh.


WP: There're cutting it down from six to eight to ten, down to two.


They got too. many over there. Nowhere to put them. There's nothing


to see.


LB: You have advocates on both ends of this question and some of them


you know, go pretty far out, advocating that women become sterile


men take that vasectomy and that sort of thing Now, you think that


perhaps, I judge from your comments that it should be done through


education


WP: Through education.


LB: And not require operation?


WP: No, I think education.


LB: Do you think tat the Indian community here is reducing the size of its


family? Since you've been here, have you noticed a decrease in the


number of children
36









LUM 57A


LB: born in families? Do you think that they terd to get smaller?


WP: Yes, smaller.


LB: This is, perhaps, due to the fact that they are being educated.


Can you think of any subjects that we pased up that you'd like to


comment on? This has certainly been an informative interview.


A very valuable one. W4nything that you would like to discuss


in particular? Perhaps, you have a message that you would like to


leave with young people who are coming along. Perhaps -a few words


of inspiration. Perhaps, a little philosophy of life that you would


like to leave with them. with other young people as they come along.


If so, we certainly would be glad to hear it.


I hearthat you are passed retirement age or that you have retired


supposedly, but you haven't actually retired. Do you think that you


will arer retire, really?


WP: Well, I'll tell you about hat retirement now. I'm four years past.


I've been drawing the retirement now for four years. IT's a lot of


satisfaction to know that when you get up in the morning, you don't


have to go to work unless you want to.


LB: That is great, isn't it?

37










LUM 57A


LB: Does it get tiresome after awhile?


WP: No, I have hobbies.


LB: I see.


WP: And now a man should go along through life before he retires, he


should develop some sort of a hobby. Now, I have boys as a hobby.


That's just one hobby now.


LB: You have other hobbies besides?

WP: I have hobbies
WP: in crafts, like Indian lore wood craft, leather craft, things like that.


Different work I do all kinds of craft work. I like craft work. I make


thing odds and ends just something that I like to make. I think


that any man that or woman that before they retire, as they go along,


before they retire, develop some sort of something that would keep them

twiddle
so that when he retires you just can't sit around there and his


thumbs. He can get out here and make a little something. Do a little


something like that.


LB: I understand that you are good at Indian craft. What things do you make


or have you been able to develop over the years? And I believe your
family helps,too, in that respect] don't they?
WP:
Well, on Indian lore on Indian loe-raft, my wife and I
A

38










LUM 57A


WP: work on that very much. I do the most of the work and she gets all the


money.


LB: ha! ha! ha! ha!

there's
WP: Well, anyway- nothing wrong with that.


In fact, she pays the bills. And that's Indian lor -raft. Then,


that's on Indian head dresses and things like that. Then, on wood carving


I've got to carve things, but I want to carve as the spirit moves me.


When I feel like carving, I start carving, and I haven't carved in quite


a little while, though, I started carving. I carved something out


yesterday, but you start carving things these things like this Tomahawk


It's just an ordinary thing. There's nothing much to it. I want to


take this back and give it another one.


LB: This is a Tomahawk that you made ?


WP: This is a Tomahawk, yeah, It's made out of a piece of maple and


and piece of roek.


LB: Can I feel It?


WP: Yeah. You get over there in these craft stores thee They want two or


three dollars for them. I give that to her. To this young lady right here.




39










LUM 57A


LB: Meaning Mrs. Taylor?


WP: Yeah.


LB: By the way, what does your wife think of wmen's lib?


WP: Woman's Lib?


LB: huh,huh.


WP: My wife?


LB: uh,huh.


WP: Let me see now. Well, I tell you one thing Woman's Lib ha! ha! ha4


LB: Well, what do you think of it? H-J, '4


WP: Well, I'll tell you what I think about it now. As far as I am concerned


it might be that I am behind times, but now it might have been on


account that I spent two years in the Phillipine Islands. On the


Phillipine Islands the woman is the queen of the house. When the man

any
makes money, he gives it all to his wife and she takes care of


all the bills. Now, that's a fact. Now, I'm retired. I get a state


check. I get a social security check. And when I get it, I just endorse


it and put it in the bank in my wife's name and she pays all the bills.






40









LUM 57A


WP: : When I want some money, I say, "I want ten dollars." or twenty dollars...


whatever it happens to be. I don't have to worry about it. I'm retired,


you see. She's my bookkeeper, you see. Now, as far as Womn's Lit- She


did all the Lib she wants. If she wants to go somewhere, she goes. I don't


mention that. If I wanted to go somewhere, I go somewhere. I might leave


a note if I see one and tell her where I'm going. Usually, I'm just


going to town or coming back or going to scout hut and coming back. or


something like that. So I think that women ought to have the same


liberty as the men to a certain extent. I think that there ought to be a


line drawn according to circumstances and things like that. Now, I

can -
believe that some women get too much liberty, And a lot of women don't


get enough, but I think that I'll be a happy medium between the two of


them. See if they both can think alike and be what's the name? equitable?


LB: Right.


You do believe that women ought to get equal pay for jobs require equal?



WP: That's right. They can do just as good a job as a man can.


LB: Right.






41










LUM 57A


LB: And sometimes better.


WP: Sometimes a lot better job, yeah, but I can get along without a woman, but

abng
I tell you one thing, I can get.a whole lot better with one. ha! ha! ha!


LB: It would be a sad world if we had no women.

WP: You may be right.
WP: Yeah. So I think that we ought to be just as fair one way or another.

liberties, Shet
Of course, you can give a woman too mych A you know. can


do like the old gray mare she'll jump over the traces. Then, again, you


know, it's up to the person. The people. The both of them.


LB: Do you think that Woman's Lib will ever have a prominent place in


the Indian Community?


WP: I think so, Yes.


LB: You know the Indian women are spoken of as being shy, and bashfull and

leaders
retiring and yet we know that we have a number of Lumbee Indlan women who

at home
do quite well. You don't think this causes any resentment among men





WP: I'll tellpu one thing: If it weren't for the Indian women, we have


in our church today, our church would be pretty had.







42









LUM 57A


LB: That's true. I certainly agree with that. Now-


This brings us back to St. Paul. Do you know who was credited with lines


It is a shame for a women to speak in church and that sort of thing.


I don't think all our churches go along with that;


do you?


Wp: I don't go along with it. I go along with Paul on a lot of things, but


err that particular -r( I just don't go along with now. I've got nothing


against Paul)now. He's quite a character. Well, you can just take


some of our women today now. You take this women here that's been -


say the women overin Israel. It took a woman to do that. She's retired.


Now you take that oman in India. Had to be a smart woman to do that.


LB: Would you like to see a woman resident of the United States?


WP: Yeah, I'd like to see one.


LB: I think I would to. Just **

'll
WP: I tell you one thing: I'd like to se more women up there in Congress.
\believe if we,
I had more women in Congress, we'd have less wars.

I think that our country would be a better place to live in.


LB: Do :you think women are better at making decisions or men?




43









LUM 57A


LB: Qr is there no difference between the two? What is your feeling on this?


WP: I believe women workmen are the best.


I'll tell you what about me Now I may be wrong. I'm not prejudiced


against men now. I'm a man my own self but men have this tendency:
A
of going out and making decisions nationwide. I mean it effects the nation.


or affects the state* or affects their community and a lot of times


they think that they have to have a big over dose of lobster or shrimp
\ A

and a bunch of liquor, or beer or something like that. or champagne.
Shrinking like)
Now our women would think oi that, because I have been in places where


the men drank their wine. They drank their liquor. And when there were


women in the places, they wouldn't touch it. You see what I mean?


LB: Um,hum.


WP: Now, I have nothing against a man drinking whiskey or any alcoholic

It's
beverage, but it's evidently known a medical fact that alcoholic beverages

will cause you not to think totally and clearly as you ought to think.


What do you think?


LB: Yes, sir, I guess that's true. Now do you think that alcohol is a peculiar


problem to Indians You know there is a You know how the old How old
A

44









LUM 57A


LB: cliches go and so on. Do you think there alcohol is a greater problem


for Indians than for other ethnic groups?


WP: No.


WP: No.


LB: About the same among all of them?


WP: Same amongst all of them. It's what you get use to orwhat you get in


the habit of, but now I tell you the Indian before the White man ever


came in this country, he had his own alcohol. He took his berries and


put them in some kind of a container or some 1 kind could have


been a buffaloe hide. He put berries in there and let them ferment Sk


ut then, the Whitemen came along with some little dt that came around


there with what they call firewater. That's how he defeated the Indian.





SThe White man gave him something and he gave the White man sometiLng.


WP: He taught the White man how to smoke AWhite men taught madeft A ntG4es.


WP: & LB: ha! ha! ha!


LB: That's a pretty good educa tion.







45









LUM 57A


LB: That always counts for a little more togetherness, you know.

're
WP: That's right. Yeah. You, right about that.


LB: Well, I've heard people say that if you ant to get together on any issue,


that you ought to have a little alcohol handy. Do you think this works


out well? Well, I'll tell you about that now. Moderation is a


great secrete of life in anything that you do. whether it's work


or whether it's play or whether it's eating. A little alcohol isn't


going to bother anybody ou take it in moderation.


LB: Yeah.


WP: That includes sex or anything that you want to talk about.


In anything moderation is the secret oflife.


LB: Right.


WP: And if you use it. You use it in religion. Some people get fanatic


about religion. And if they'd use that religion in moderation, they'd


make a better religious person. fnd work A person can work too hard. I*r


/ '. strain and cause a heart condition. There's just lots


of things. Moderation is your secret. A little alcoholic beverage, a little


wine or beer does me more good thar cacola. In fact, I don't try to




46









LUM 57A


WP: think about oclcola. What I do is draw a cold beer occas-iohally.


Not so much because of its alcohol there ain't enough there for that,


but I just like the taste of it.


LB: Well, uh, this has certainly been an interesting interview. And if


you have no further comments, I guess maybe we should not impose on your


good nature and hold you any longer than you'd like to talk.


WP: Well, I certainly enjoyed just being here) in this fellowship circle. uI !


LB: Well, we certainly have enjoyed it and before we close, we'd like to


ask you if you'd say a few farewell words for us in Cree.


WP. In Cree?


LB: Would you do that?


WP: In Cree. In Cree. ha! ha! ha! hal


LB: And translated because we..


WP: Would you like me to sing you a song in Cree?


LB: Yeah. That's great. That's great.


WP: Let's see if I can find something around here. Certainly


like a .. something that I can keep time with.






47









LUM 57A


LB: Do you want something to keep time with ? Then he's going to sing us


a song in Cree. (knocks wooden objects together: probably sticks)


WP: Now, can you hear that?


LB: Sure.


WP: (Keeps rhythm vth sticks and begins to sing) oh lay ay chay en hi oh sadee


now scoop gonchoy en 'hiohpading. etc.







LB: Oh! That's great! Now, can you tell us what those words mean?


WP: Well, ohlalley is a berry. that grows out in the Rocky Mountain section.


of Canada and United States. It's an orange colored berry. And the Indians


out there take that berry and mash it up and make a juice out of i. -And get


it cooled down and it's called O'Riley. And chuch means water. Ohlaley chuch.


in hial hadu means very good. Oh llalley chuck is very good, see.


LB: Right.


WP: Now, which means but. Scoobum chuck jsie'o. -. Now scoocum means strong.


Scoocum chuck ien-oh- Chuck means water. So he means that


Scoocumchuck which is whiskey is very good,fo16


LB: ha! ha! ha!


48










LUM 57A

LB: That's very good.
WP: time /"
In the old days back longago a long time ago wel still days now.


Well, you take where the snow gets three feet deep two feet deep and


all you get to eat ishat you go out there and kill. Then the best


food you get, is in July when the salmon ran up the rivers. Salmon goes


up the rivers, up the west coast and the Indians gather around there and


fish for their salmon and that hw-lasts them a year. Then, you


gather around the camp fires there and sing Oh valley chuck.


LB: well, are you going to teach me that song one of these days?
How about it?
WP: Well, we'll do that. ha! ha! ha!


LB: You spell Cree C R E E, don't you?


WP: C R double E. That's right. Cree.


LB: I certainly have enjoyed this interview, and I'm sort of taking from Miss


Marilyn Taylor because you're supposed to really be her interview.


And she's bothered th Abas duff now.


iut it's going to b her interview :anyway.

WP: Be her interview?
*I- That willbe OK. That will be OK


LB: And we certainly are grateful to you because not only for this interview, but


for all you have met to the Lumbee Indian CoaMunity and for all the other

49









LUM 57A


things that you have been so helpful with. He's always been a friend.

to you.
to us and we hope that we know that we'll always be a friend.


WP: Wellyince I've been here, other people say to me, "Well, you've done so


much for our boys, but I'll tell you one thing: the boys have done


a lot for me.


LB: That's great.


WP: And I appreciate that. I appreciate it. I don't figure starting is


a job or a piece of work. It's opportunity to serve boyhood.


because there's one thing about it. If you're going to have a man,

about
start on him when he's a boy. I guess thatwill be the wi riGp of this.


LB: Well, thank you so much for the Doris Duke) Foundati&n's A'merican Indian


oral history program.


WP: Is that what it's supposed to have been?



















50





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