|
COPYRIGHT NOTICE
This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.
Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.
This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limts the amount of material that may be
used.
For all other permissions and requests, contact the
SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 53A
Barton interview w/
Shitley Lowry typist: SLW
3/16/73
B: This is Lew Barton, interviewing for the Doris Duke Foundation under the
auspices of the University of Florida's History Department. This is March
16, 1973 e and today we are at the / S Motel here in Pembroke, North
Carolina where we are privileged to be interviewing Mrs. Shirley Smith
Lowry. Mrs. Lowry, we certainly appreciate your willingness to give us an
interview with you. I certainly regard you as one of the leaders of the
community and a person who is always engaged in some civic activity or not.
A very well-known person. And for the sake of our listeners and readers
would you spell your name out for us?
L: I'm Mrs. Shirley Smith Lowry, and I live here at Pembroke, North Carolina,
and I teach school at _Ii O o nior High. I'm a vocational--home
economics teacher at the school.
B: I don't like to ask a lady her age, but may I ask you yours?
A f-le ac.
L: Well approximately 50.
B: And you were, you married Mr. ...?
L: Delton H. Lowry of the '" community.
B: And before your marriage ou were ?
L: I was Shirley Smith, daughter of the late Reverend Mr. Walter Smith and the
present Mrs. J. W. Smith. My mother is still living and residing here in the
saAe town.
B: Uh, huh. Well, your father was well-known in educational circles. He was
an educator himself and a minister, is that correct?
1: That is true.
B: Very great credit to the community, as I recall, and would you tell us some-
thing about your family; your children, their names and their ages perhaps?
L: Well, I might add that I am now a widow and my husband and I are the parents
2
LUM 53A
of four lovely children---three daughters; Frs. Frank F. Warner of West
Chester, Pennsylvania, an elementary teacher; Mrs., MISS Julia Lynette Lowry,
of Greensboro, and June Lowry also of Greensboro who is a student, a senior
now at the University of Greensboro; and one son who is now making' his home
with me--he and his family--here in Pembroke, North Carolina. And he's also
a senior after bein' in the Navy for four years and working' for several years.
He's back now at Pembroke University, completion' his degree in Business
Education.
B: Is this Mr. Tryon Lowry, who was interviewed just a moment ago by Mrs. Marilyn
Taylor?
L: That is correct. That was my son that was just previously interviewed also.
B: I know you're proud of him, aren't you?
L: Quite proud. He's my only son and he is a good son.
B: I understand he is a Republican, whereas you haven't become a Republican.
L: Well, that is also correct. Maybe it sounds rather unusual or unique, but it
so happens that Tryon 's father and I were on the Democratic ticket long
before Tryon's existence, and I haven't changed my party affiliation even
though my father and Tryon's father was one of the few Robtson County
Republican Party members years and years ago. So I can't say that my son has
deviated completely in his political party affiliation, but at this moment
let's say, he is a Republican and I 4 am still on the Democratic Party
ticket.
B: But this is no cause for rivalry, real rivalry, is it?
L: No, I uld say that it's made our political interests even greater. We have
had much fun by being bi-partisan, and I think maybe it has meant much more to
both of us now that we have both sides to withdraw our resources. We feel
that maybe this is better for the total situation--political picture that we
find ourselves a part of, it seems.
3
LUM 53A
B: Do you definitely feel then that Robinson County should huve a two-party
system rather than a one-party ... one party system?
L: Oh, yes, very definitely. I, I think that the two-party system upon which
the United States, our country of America was established, certainly uh, a
great step and a great tool in keeping' democracy alive.
B: I seem to recall your interest in politics over quite a few years. I re-
member your running for the Rob son County Board of Education, and I remember
voting for you too. And your interest in civic affairs down through the
years; uh, wherever I go to a civic meeting usually I find that you're there
and somebody will prevail with you before the meeting is over to say a
few words or say something to the people. Is this a great source of enjoy-
ment to you?
L: Well, let's say it is an enjoyment. But before we go any further, Mr. Barton,
you have paid myself and other members of my family so many nice compliments
I think I should say, and thank you once more for your vote, for ...
B: You're certainly welcome.
L: ... my political candidacy. I believe I would like for you to restate the
last question now before I attempt to answer that question for you.
B: Well, I wanted ... I was wondering if you cared to comment on anything in
connection wit your political career and your ambition to help children in
schools--I remember your ... your campaign slogan "For every child a
Chance." Your ... you've always been close to the school, have you not?
You're a teacher ...
L: That's correct. I do teach vocational home economics now; however, during
my twelve years of teaching I have taught grades from the fifth grade level
all the way through the twelfth grade, and possibly this audience might be
wondering' about my age and about the number of years of teaching' experience.
But I feel that I have lived a rather unique life in some ways--that maybe
4
LUM 53A
it might sound like I have lived backwards, but really I think that the whole
thing is that coming from a rather educated background, a family who was deeply
concerned and interested in the welfare of their children, I would have to
say that education is at the root of all that I have ever been and all I am,
and all I hope to be. So for this reason I hope that this is the beginning
point that I would like to try to ... to really complete this answer. In this
endeavor to flfill my parents' ambition to have their children formally edu-
cated in order to be productive and find a better way of life, I found that
I couldn't achieve or fulfill this goal even though I thought at one time a
high school education was enough until later on in life after I had met
my wonderful husband and had fallen in love and chose a marriage as my first
ambition as a young adult. I discovered that I could not serve my husband
nor my children nor my parents as fully as I knew they expected me to, or
I wanted to. So at that point when my youngest child, June, was five years
old and just before ready for public schools, in North Carolina, I decided
to ... to return to college and receive my higher education, which accounts for
my graduating rather late in life and having less years of experience, but again
let me say that I think this is one of the things that also has made me
understand my role as a teacher and as an educator for youth in Rob son
County and North Carolina uh, reach a different plateau. I think it has
given me a greater interest in the program of education, and a keener sense
of responsibility as a teacher along with having had a previous background
as parent and mother, which we still like to think of as the backbone of
the United States and of the public school educational program.
BY And you see education then as the salvation of our people in this community?
L: Really, Mr. Barton, I'm glad you directed that question to me because I
would have to say that education and religion I would define as almost the
total cure for anyone's ills or needs or purposes. I ... I find myself
5
that these two .... these two things are my greatest support for any and all
endeavors that I attempt in life.
B: Well, that's great. I recall your earnest efforts and your hard work and
your very, very organized and methodical work in connection with saving
Old Main when it was threatened with demolition a few years ago. And you
did so much in that effort and I admire you so much for the things that you
did. Uh, now that the building has uh, well, it's been virtually decided
that the building would not be destroyed. What is your ... what are your
feelings on this matter?
L: Well, Mr. Barton, I really think that this is one of the most important recent
issues that I was so closely associated with and after some hesitation en-
tering the campaign to save Old Main and we feel that we have been successful
so far, and I'm hoping that our legislators have the answer for: Where to
from here? I feel that the salvation of some of the culture is really one
of the things that's most needed right now in a change in curriculum of
the education of Indian children. Indian children have very little that
they study in their books in the way of artifacts and Indian heritage and
culture that they have inherited or that has been salvaged and saved for
their study. And this has made it rather hard in my field of work as an
educator in the public school because I think that the Indian children have
had so much less to feel proud of than white or black children in a way.
They have just been in some ways they have been forgotten people of America.
I ... I just hope that I, too, will never have to feel as disappointed and
as let-down as the students that I work with, the Indian students, because
in a way, I really don't feel that I have been left out of things quite as
much as the average person, because my father having been an educator and
a minister and having been an early church leader was associated with really
all types of people, all races and creeds and colors, therefore as his
child I was never deprived of quite the things that some of my own blood-
6
LUM 53A
kin has been deprived of and I really hope that saving Old Main will be the
salvation and a turning point in the type of heritage, Indian heritage and
a cultural study that they can have, and they can really be proud of, and
... and make them in a way, into a new proud race of people, even amidst the
new integrated public school system that we have all come to accept as being
possibly the best system for the present day we're living in.
B: There seems to be a feeling of inferiority among some, some of our people and
do you think this may be due in part to what you just mentioned a while ago.
We don't have a great body of written material about the past, we don't have
the artifacts that should have been preserved, there're some scattered around;
we haven't taken the interest in our past. Do you think this partly ac-
counts for that?
L: Do you know, Mr. Barton, it's hard to really speak for another person, to
speak their inner thoughts but I do think that you have asked me a question
that I am tempted to say "Yes, to, to answer with a "yes." Because I think
that you can be given an inferiority feeling' and complex if you feel that you're
left out, if you feel that you're not a part of things, if you are made to
feel that you're not as good as other people, it definitely could give even
the strongest of persons possibly some type of inferiority complex. Be-
cause to eel less than other pesple and to feel unwanted and unloved ac-
cordin' to all our educational and psychological material that I studied when
I had my higher training' in school, those are the same facts that lead to
even not only inferiority complexes but lead to crime and criminal, a
criminal way of life, which is really pathetic. And these are the kinds of
things that bother the people of your calibre and mine who had hoped for a
better way of life and who have struggled to surmount all the obstacles that
a. minortiy group of people might have or have had.
B: Well, I'm certainly glad that you agree that the salvation of our heritage
7
LUM 53A
and of building on things that we do have offers possibilities for the fu-
ture, and Old Main is part of that, isn't it?
L: I certainly is. I, I feel that I would like to expound or expand on that just
a bit in sayin' that we have gone the first step of the way in the salvage
of the building but there is much more to be done and accomplished and
I just hope that we can through our legislators, the men that we havy
elected, the people that we hav e chosen and elected in a democratic process,
feel as keen as you and I do about the future of progress of Indian education
to the point that they will want to pass some kind of legislature that
will really make this into one of the finest museums which will house the
richest heritage that any group of people could have in the whole world for
our children, our most prized possessions, our children.
B: Well. I, I noticed recently a few months ago that St. Andrews came out with an
Indian museum and at that Indian museum Dr. .IL1 E. Jones of St. ... of
Pembroke State University was asked to speak, and I was there on the opehin
day, and if they can do it, with ...in the remote position that they've,
to our people and to other Indian groups, it certainly seems that we can be
successful in this endeavor, doesn't it?
L: Yes, I think you're so right. Don't you think that if we can get together
as a group of Lumbee Indians, as a ... as really the ... the forerunners
and the frontier people of North Carolina and the United States that certainly
we hope to find solutions to, to many of our problems, but don't you think
that really a united effort is what it's gonna take in order to ... to ac-
complish this and the fact that we must build more pride. In my opinion
the building' of pride in bein' an Indian and right at this point I would like
to point out that I really don't have any, any feeling that I am less than other
people or that I was born to the wrong tribe. If we could just get together
and accomplish what many of us feel should be accomplished through our
8
LUM 53A
democratic process and through our elected leaders of our county, I think
that then we would have the pride, the kind of pride that need, and that we
would be an asset to not only RobJ son County, but to North Carolina and
to the United States and that we would be exactly what the forefathers of
this country had hoped that one day they would be able to read in history
as what happened to the Croetans, that we were once known as, here in
Robinson County.
B: Right.
L: And that we would in a way we would really conclude and complete that won-
ful story of white Lost Colony, which has always been the mystery and yet
isn't it the real history of Robison County that we have been searching' and seeking'
to find the end of the story for all of these years from the beginning of
our origin.
B: Right. Um, this, this is a unique county and this is a unique story, and
we are a unique people. But do you think this is, is this cause for
pride or is this cause for discouragement? Don't you ... do you think we
should be proud of this?
L: Oh, definitely.
B: Capitalize on it.
L: Definitely, I think we should be proud and we should capitalize, but along
with pride and capitalization used in this manner, I think there is a word
that we need to insert in our thinking' and that would be "Caution." The word
of caution. And I don't mean caution with fear of what we're endavorin' to do
but the way and the manner in which we hope t reach our goals and certainly
in the current times we're livin' in, with all the upheaval of all the problems
that have arisen out of many of the laws that have affected racial status
and different cultureda think that as an intelligent educated group of people
there may be a note of caution that needs to be kept at the forefront in
9
our every act, our every idee, and all of our thinking. in all of our
actions. We must tread cautiously in order that we not lose our dignity
or hope to tarnish this wonderful sense of pride that we are trying to
build up in our children right today even.
B: Well, do you think there may some resentment in other ethnic groups that
we do have this pride, or that we are seeking to generate this pride in
our young people, in our past; and some of 'em said, are saying, 0h, just
forget the Indian stuff. Integration is here. But does this mean that we
can't retain our identity that we don't have a right to be ourselves or
to take pride in ourselves as a group as well as individuals?
L: No, I don't, Mr. Barton, I dCn't think that other ethnic groups resent the
fact that we would like to be proud of our heritage or that we would want
to escape or camouflage our identity. I have many friends in all three
RobOson County ethnic groups--I have friends in our neighboring county-seat
town, I have friends right here in my own home town, wonderful white
friends that I feel are sincere and true and just as devoted and dedicated
tore as a fellow human individual as I do right among my own Lumbee group. I
hve he same kind of friends among the black race. That are just wonderful and
dedicated to really the same causes, same ideals and goals, a better way of
(2-
life for all Robtsonians. I really think that this is a great mistake, and
I think it is like making' a mountain out of a molehill, and I wish it could
be played down rather than blown up because I think these are the kind of
things that I am ... have just been referring to--that we need a note of
caution in going about accomplishing this goal of striving to build greater
pride, and specially greater pride in our ethnic origin as well as our
heritage in ... in all aspects. And I think that it's not fair, it isn't
fair to other ethnic groups for us to ... to let one side maybe outrule
or outweigh the other--there's two sides to the Robson County ethnic
or outweigh the other--there's two sides to the Robfson County ethnic
10
LUM 53A
orig--origin, well, there's really three. But there's two sides in prin-
ciple. And, and I think this is what you had reference to and what I'm
trying to say is that some people would distort the real facts and truth of
the situation in Robtson County. And yet you know and I know that some of
us have worked hand in hand almost since the beginning of our origin to
make a better way of life and we've been friends all down through the ages
and I think it's just misunderstanding, really when you get to the bottom
of it there's as much just plain misunderstanding as there is anything such
as ruthlessness or crimology or intolerance or prejediced or any of the words
that we would describe fitting to a situation such as ... Such as we are
referring to today.
B: Well, this ... this matter of promoting human understanding is ... is a subject
that ... which as you know has always been close to my heart and yours too
I'm sure. Which brings me to another question I want to ask you and don't
comment if you don't want to but you know we all have common goals, certain
goals among the Indian groups. Yet our methods of achieving those goals
are not always the same. Sometimes one group is more militant than another
and they go to the extent of ... you know almost rioting and destruction
of property, sometimes violent, do you think we all agree in principle that
we need to advance and that our disagreement rather hinges along those lines
of ways and means of advancement, things like this?
L: Well, I'm sure that there are reasons for differnece of oponion and at this
point I'll have to go back. I will comment on this because I think I ...
we wouldn't want to close an interview without getting back and citing the
real, the real issues that we are facing today and have faced all down through
the ages. And I think that education again is a real difference i solving our
problems. I think the difference in education has colored the thinking
to a degree because if you're not fully educated, you certainly think
11
LUM 53A
differently and you act differently and here I'm talking' about formal education
which helps us to better interpret the meaning that has actually in my
opinion made America great. It has been mainly the great ideas and ideals
of men just like you and we would like to think all of us, that has made
the nation great and it's only those same principles and ideals that will
set any group of people free of any country free or raise their standard of
living or help them accomplish their goals and realize their dreams come
true. So I think that really the ... the main issue at stake in this county
and in{ this state is actually the need for more and better formal schooling
and I hope that anyone who ever should hear this interview or read it in the
printed page I hope they will understand the difference between bein'
formally schooled and unformally educated and I hope there will be no mis-
understanding at htis point in any repercussion or results of this interview
that anyone would get the wrong impression. I feel there are many, many
highly intelligent people who never probably went to anymore than third or
fourth grade. They can make a rich contribution based on'ommon mother wit,
or common sense. But how much more effective couls they have been had they
had a formal education? And been able to better communicate and better
interpret and better relate their findings to each other. This to me is pro-
bably the greatest problem and the greatest need still in Robeson Cdunty
and in North Carolina. I'd like to comment just a step further on this and
cite the fact that we're aware of our poverty=stricken county and our very,
very low educational level statewide. We rank way down at the bottom most
at the very bottom in this level and we many of us feel that have gone through
the formal schools that this really helps to just add to the complexities
of our ... our many economical problems. And we hope certainly that in the
future that our legislators are gonna place special emphasis on any and all
legislative measures that will upgrade of opportunity for our people here
12
LUM 53A
Robeson and North Carolina to better themselves educationally speaking.
B: Right. Uh, in our system as you know we've had a sort of autonomy until
integration. And integration perhaps wasn't as complete as some would
have liked, and some would have liked less, so we can't say very much about
that. But it ... do you see a gap between the school system, say the Robison
County School system and the college level and do you see a pattern there
as has been charged by some of trying to keep the Robjson County System poor
or poorer than other school districts in the county in order that Indians
might not advance as fast or as well, you know, you hear all kinds of charges.
I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts along this line?
L: Mr. Barton, are you refferrin' by any chance to the double voting system that
is now at it's peak in discussion and debate of **.. ?
B: Well, that's certainly involved in it. I mean that fits into the pattern
somewhere it seems to me.
L: Well, if youwuld like for me to comment briefly on that. I would first like
to say that this double voting issue or question has two sides to it in our
county as well as any other county that it might happen. I really feel that
we're all making too big a: issue out of it; that we are really accomplishin'
very, very little in this way that we are attempting' to solve the educational
problem, because I feel that it could have been handled so very differently.
And I realize that maybe I am different at many times from many people, but
I feel that even just what I heard today that we have had an addition two
board members. We have enlarged the Robison County Board of Education;
that this is not the cure at all. I think that we're gonna find that addin'
to the number and making' the Board larger is only another way of endinO
up with the same results, because if these p people take a vote and if we have
added on an equal number of the three thnic groups here in Robison County
mathematically we're gonna come up with approximately the same kind of voting,
13
LUM 53A
yes and no. So therefore this compromise in my opinion has absolutely
done no more than quietin'the situation hopefully temporarily. I'm afraid
a
the people that represented us in this move have compromised on very poor
compromise. I think the end results could be no better : if any; it
could even result in a worse situation rather than-a better. I'd like to
add to this that it seems to me that there are times when leaders, leaders
such as you aid I and leaders that we hope our elected officials are, that
you can't afford to let the whole population decide an issue; that if you
have the powers endowed to you that hopefully you would take this oppor-
tunity to really go down in history as one who dared to be counted,
and one who dared to serve the people as you very best could. And this res-
pect had I been a legislator, a representative of my Rob#don County I
this is one time when if there's such a thing as calling the shots in political
history and rights and responsibilities, that I would have feJllr=J my
own dictation, rather than just takin' a samplin' of a few of the people
of the county and I would have come up with a one-county-wide school system.
Most all of our higher economic-socio communities have long done away
with county and city school systems. They have merged becae merging
they felt that they saved money and they provided this equal opportunity
that we're all hollerin' so loud about. fLet me say this as a teacher in the
public schools, from experience, you can't have every child come out of
school with an equal education notdue to your teaching, but due to the
child's ability, different ability levels. So therefore we're talking'
about two different things: when we're talking' about quality education, equal
opportunities for all children, and I just I just hope that one day the
solution will be to merge county and city system rather than worry about a
double voting system. To me that would have been the better solution between
the two: double voting or a referendum to get a bill passed to offer a
14
LUM 53A
referendum in Rob son County on double voting or school merger. My pre-
ference would have been school merger and top school officials like your
county superintendent and his assistants in the field of education.
|
RSS
HIDE
