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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 44A
Interview with 9J. Strickland
12-30-72
Interviewer: Lew Barton
Typist: Sally A. White
B: This is Dec. 30, 1972. I am Lew Barton, recording for the Doris Duke American
Indian Oral History Program, under the auspices of the University of Florida's
History Department. I am in my home, in Pembroke, North Carolina, and with me,
today, is Mr. W.R. Strickland....
S: (whispers) W.J.
B: I'm sorry. Mr. W. J. Strickland. And, uh, he has kindly consented to present
himself here for an interview. And, uh, I'm not going to tell you anything about
him. We're going to talk back and forth and I'm going to try to find out some
things about this very interesting interviewee. Mr. Strickland, what does W.J.
stand for?
S: Well, Lew, that's ironic, that you ask me that, because I don't really have a
name, and it's puzzling to alot of people. Uh, my name is only initials, just
W.J.
B: Uh-huh. Well, that's certainly distinctive. Uh, could you tell us something
about your family?
S: Yes, Lew, be very glad to. I'm the oldest son of Mr. and Mrs. Willard Strickland,
uh, the proud parents of 11 children.
B: (interjects) That's great. Uh, what are you now doing with yourself? I know
you've been engaged in many different interesting activities. And, you're
certainly a public figure among the Lumbee Indians, here. And, uh, you've been
one of our leaders, one of our highly esteemed leaders, for a long time. We
certainly appreciate that, and, uh, could we just start and find out some of the
things that you've uh, been connected with? And, maybe we need to go back and
hear a little something about your education, beginning with the earlier
education?
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LUM 44A
S: Yes, Lew, my early education was, uh, here in Pembroke, Pembroke Grade School,
from grades 1 through 8. At that time, uh, my parents decided to, that we should
seek a bigger farm, as the number of the kids in the household had expanded, and
we needed a broader base for support, because, you know, at that time, our only
income was farming, and this is how we made our livelihood. So, we moved out to the,
up into that time, we lived in Pembroke proper. Then, we moved out into the
community known as the Philadelphia's community, where we, uh, my father took on
a two house farm, there, that time. That meant that I changed schools to Prospect,
uh, from grades, completed grade 8 thru 12 at Prospect High School. And, being
the third highest student in the class historian, and there was only about like
2 tenths of a point separating the top three students. I qualified for a schol-
arship, which enabled me to attend Pembroke State College, at that time, which is
now Pembroke State University. Upon entering Pembroke State, uh, College, uh, I
endeavored to better acquaint myself with higher education, because I had dreams
and aspirations. Wasn't completely satisfied with what was going on, about our
people. I completed four years of college work at Pembroke State University. Uh,
I engaged myself in activities on campus. I was very active in all student affairs.
Uh, I didn't graduate with any kind of distinct honors, because I had to work my
way through school. And, uh, got married in my senior year. Became a family man,
as they say.
B: Right, and what, who did you marry?
S: I married the former Barbara Chavis, of, granddaughter of Mr. and Mrs. Denny Chavis
of Route 4, L5^vbC40fl< North Carolina. We are now the proud parents of 3
wonderful, very loving children, / IC Fc > fCC 7.and 1/2, Carmelia
SI((\l who is 5 and 1/2, and Caleb Hiram, who is 4 and 1/2.
B: Um-hmm. That's a nice family.
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LUM 44A
S: Yes, Lew, it's, uh, been wonderful to have two boys and one girl, and we sort of
called it quits for the time being.
B: How old are you, now?
S: Well, I just turned 30.
B: (Laughs) Oh, golly, uh, you've done alot of things, in a short while, you've come
a long way.
S: Well, I certainly have, and one of the things that I attribute to, upon completion
of, uh, my B. S. Degree, we had an industry to locate in .'i County, known at
that time as B. F. Goodrich Footwear Company. And they were looking for young men
to take on staff, and, to train them, to be, uh, management type people. So, I was
hired as, uh, Junior TimeoStudy Engineer, with B. F. Goodrich.
B: Uh-huh. What year was this?
S: This was in 1966.
B: Uh-huh.
S: About that same time, a young man asked me to join, uh, the Pembroke Jaycees.
B: Uh-huh.
S: Which was a relatively new organization. The first, uh, all Indian civic org-
anization, young men's civic organization, in the county, at that time. It was
really a major innovation breakthrough for us. And, this is what I really attri-
bute my start, Lew, as to becoming involved in this civic affairs, of the community,
which later, led me to be an advocate for the Lumbee Indians of Robinson County.
B: We're certainly glad it happened. (Laughs)
S: Yeah. Because, at that time, it gave me an outlet, to become involved in some
issues, which were of concern to me, but I didn't have a channel through which to
express my opinion. I immediately, after six months into the organization, was, uh,
they made me president. And, I served out an unexpired term of the former pres-
ident. And then, was elected unopposed, to serve a full term. In the meantime,
4
LUM 44A
I'm still continuing in my job capacity at B. F. Goodrich, getting a, and getting
a introduction to an interesting type situation, which we never had before, on any
kind of broad scale. B. F. Goodrich was very innovative in that, their quotas, if
we want to say quotas, was that employment was to be 60% Indian, 20% white, and 20%
Negro, and, you know that's quite a switch....
B: (Interjects) That certainly is. Was there some reason for this? It's very inter-
esting.
S: Yes, Lew, there was because, um, they knew that the, that the, American Indians,
here, in Robison.County, had been given high recommendations as workers. But, yet,
when they looked around on the rolls of the other industries, they didn't find a
representation. And they knew that the Indians had always been left out.
B: Now, this was a, the Goodrich Footwear Plant.
S: That's right.
B: And this is the most interesting single industry, or one of the most, which would
you say, in Robison County?
S: Well, it is the most, in my opinion.
B: Uh-huh. I remember that, just this year, that we had a crisis when this business
changed hands.
S: Right.
B: And people were very, very concerned, from here to Washington, trying to keep this
plant in operation, because this is one of the depressed areas, and this is so
important to so many of our people....uh..
S: Very true.
B: ...of all three races, and, uh,....
S: Well, another significant point that I'd like to make is the fact that, uh, when B.
F. Goodrich came in, and they brought on this number of Indians as factory workers,
they also, in turn, had a program of promotion in upgrade of the Indians, whereby
5
LUM 44A
uh, you didn't have to work ten or fifteen years before you'd get a chance to move
up to be a foreman. Let's use that as an example. Because we now have Indians in
top positions of management, and this precedence set by the B. F. Goodrich, in turn
caused the other industries in the area to take a look at themselves. And to begin
really, promotion on merit, and not just strictly because you were white. And that,
by being Indian, you weren't qualified. B. F. Goodrich eliminated this myth and,
um, it was really a great benefit to our people, in alot of ways, in my opinion.
B: Well, now, you worked with the personnel department for some time, didn't you?
S: Well, yes, I worked as the, I was the Junior Time-Study Manager, as I've already
stated. Then, I came up, and I went right on up to Senior Time-Study Engineer, and
then I was promoted up to Assistant Personnel Manager. Um, and I served in that
capacity for 3 years, also.
B: Well, that's great. That gave you a chance to, uh, come into contact with, with the
most promising, uh, talent, working talent among our people, and also brought you
into contact with other, people in other groups, didn't it?
S: Well, yes, it certainly did. It gave me a golden opportunity to truly assess our
people, our needs, our wants, and our problems.
B: Um-hmm. Also their ability?
S: Their abilities. There's no question about the ability of the Lumbee Indian, in my
opinion. They have thegreatest ability of any people, that I know. All they need
is an opportunity, a fair opportunity. One that's not biased and prejudiced. I say
we've got people capable of serving in cabinet levels under the President. I say
we've got people that can be President of the United States. It's just a matter of
time.
B: Uh-huh. Well, this certainly is great, and if anybody is in a position to know
about, uh, what our people are capable of doing in this direction, it's you. And,
uh, also, you're being connected with, uh, organizations and working with all the
6
LUM 44A
leaders of our people, is certainly a...your information is well-rounded. That
makes this a very important interview. Uh, I don't want to inhibit what you are
saying. I would like for you to talk and tell us anything would like in you own
way.
S: Well, since 1966, Lew, it's been, it's been a very, very rewarding experience to
me. Umm, because with the, joining the Jaycees, uh, it really got me involved. I
became a member of the Pembroke Housing Authority, which has always been active in
the Jaycees. I was a member of the Rob ison County School-study Commission, uh,
for one year, and, uh, you know the problem we have there, on the double voting.
B: Right.
S: And, also, the, uh, five city administrative units, and the one county administrative
unit, and consequently, that give me an exposure to the, to the real problems that
we have, um, in trying to educate our people, in dealing with the process that
always deals us out. Um, one of the most significant endeavors that I was engaged
in, by virtue of being in the Jaycees, I made the contacts throughout the state,
of North Carolina, with other young men, who were white. 'Cause I'd always been taught
that, we were inferior, and that whitewas superior. But by being a member of this
organization, I found that I could compete with doctors and lawyers, equally and as
soundly as they could be. And so, this immediately washed away all my inhibitions,
that I had up to that point. I think it maybe was a stepping stone to seek higher
goals. Consequently, as a result of this, we became very active in the area, in the
county, here, in organizing more Indian Jaycee chapters. We now have 10 Indian
Jaycee chapters in Robison County.
B: That's really great.
S: And this really provides for young men to become involved in the problems that face
7
LUM 44A
our community; voter education, education problems, political problems, economic.
problems that exist, uh, and the answer to your, to your dream, and to my dream,
__ __Ito the reign of power of the Lumbee Indian on the political front,
on the economic front, and on the educational front, is going to be attributed to
those young men. Because they, in turn, know organization procedures, and they can
help deal with the problems and they don't get frustrated. And they work, ded-
icated, day by day, and not on a hot and cold issue, that runs anywhere from 3 to
6 months, on any kind of previous activity that's been undertaken, to eliminate the
problems of the Lumbee Indians.
B: Uh-huh. That certainly is interesting, and we certainly have our share of problems.
S: Well, yes, we certainly do. But, uh, there's an old saying that I met the enemy on
the battlefield and he was I.
B: (Laughs) That's correct, but......
S: (interjects) He.....we are our biggest enemy.
B: Right. I'm afraid so.
S:; We....if we ever conquer ourselves, as people, then we can deal with the white man,
and we can deal with the Black man, on any issue, on any problem, on any solution.
And this is going to be the precedent. One of my most sincere goals, is to cross
community lines, with community leaders, and then to cross state lines with these
same people. And open up the lines of communication from the local community to the
state's capitol, to our nation's capitol, and this can be done.
B: Uh, we certainly have made some progress already, and we're just beginning, aren't
we?
S: That is very true, very true. In the.past twelve months, we have seen some un-
precedentedevents take place. It's not been quite a year since there was this Old
Main issue got started. And from the Old Main issue, we went into the problem of
8
LUM 44A
the Chairman of the Robinson County Board of Elections, which really cast a shadow
on the political system, the Democrat party in Robinson County, which had always
suppressed us for a hundred years. And, with the advent of the recent general ele-
ction, uh, preceding that was the primaries, where we were able to see 2 Indian
candidates be successful in their bid for office. All these have been significant,
important events in the history of the Lumbee Indian. And on top of that, we've
been able to bring suit on this double-voting issue. And these little issues are
adding '__Y___ and enthusiasm to our people.
B: Uh, how...just where is this suit....and, wha...you're in the process of litigation
here, just how far along are you?
S: Well, the...the suit has been, uh, been filed with the Civil Liberties Union. And
we've got a couple of things support on that issue. The other one is that we'd
like to eradicate this problem through our elected representatives in the general
assembly, in the upcoming session, we've been working on the general assembly.
However, we've have an ace up our sleeves, as they say, with the bringing of the
law suit, o the Civil Liberties Union, which has agreed to work in our behalf at
no cost.
B: That's ers Well, this is really an unfair thing, and Ibelieve an unconsti-
tutional thing.
S: Very true.
B: I understand that the attorney general of this state, Robert Morgan takes a different
legal view on it. Don't you.....
S: Well, yes, uh, Lew, we have to be aware, also, that, uh, up until this past election,
Lumbee Indians had been very divided, and very split. And so, when the attorney
general calls to the power structure in Lumberton, that he wants to get an opinion,
about as to what he should do, quite, a rcFify, he is advised to the contrary of
9
LUM 44A
the interest of the Lumbee Indians. Now, when we show in force, our voice, our
decision politically, because he is political, and all the decisions he makes
are political. Certainly they ehoa been the confines of the law, to a
degree, plus or minus, that yet, we can never get away from that basic fact that
he is a political, uh, man and he gets his information from the people that are
in power in Lumberton. If you can tell me, if anybody else can tell me, what they've
ever done for Lumbee Indians, I'd just like to know about it.
B: (Laughs) All right. Uh, you mentioned something about the Robkson County Board
of Election, and what happened over there, I believe, until that time, when the
changes began to take place, out of 39 registrars, there were only 2 Indians.
S: That is correct. What happened was.....
P3
B: ..but there's never been an Indian on the Robfbson County Board of Election before.
S: Never before in the history of our people, has this happened. And, quite naturally,
the pressure was put to bear on the Democrat party, to...because of the uniqueness
of the population in the county; a third Black, a third white, and a third Indian,
that we should have 3 members, uh, to serve on the county Board of Election, and
one member should be white, one member should be Black and one member should be
Indian.
B: Uh-huh.
S: Well, as the turn of events took place, this was done, and that the 3 different
races were represented, and that 2 of these were Democrat and one Republican. As
it so happened, the Indian is Republican, and the Black is Democrat, and the white
is Democrat. But, because minorities are minorities, they tend to stick together.
B: Uh-huh.
S: And the Black nominated the Indian to be the Chairman. And the white seconded the
nomination. And so, this became,...he became the Chairman of the Robison County
Board of Elections. Well, ironically, as soon as this happened, the word seeped
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LUM 44A
out the door that a Republican was the chairman.
B: Well, do you think they did this without realizing that he was a Republican?
S: I think they, I think they did it in the, in the best interest of progress. How-
ever, as soon as the power structure, outside, found out that this had happened,
they realized the consequences of this, and they weren't ready to give up their
little playhouse, as the saying goes. And so, they sent word back in to adjourn
the meeting. And then they had a little caucus, and pointed out to the Black man
and also to the white man, that, uh, the consequences of turning over the Rob4ason
County Board of Elections to a RepublicanS you just didn't, that was just an un-
heard of situation. You just don't do that kind of thing. Well, as a result of
this, they reconvened, and tried to undo what they had just done. Well, that just
"really ...... Pk fr, /^
B: S, because that they did,-t1-d. U f-r7 -r-elim.
S: Well, they tried to, to, uh, take Mr. John Robert Jones, out, as Chairman of the
Robtson County Board of Elections. And this certainly made headlines. Uh, and
then it became a tug of war, between the Republicans and the Democrats. But, the
most significant thing about this, to the Indian people, was that they were first,
the first time that they were able to visibly see the Democrat Party in action, as
trying to cut off an Indian, who was in a role of leadership in Robason County.
And this stayed current for some ten days, in the newspaper with some front page
coverage with one item or another, but finally, the issue was resolved by Alex
Or0 ?0 who is the Executive Director of the State Board of Elections. And
he ruled that the first action was the official action. Therefore, it was
official and valid.
B: In other words, if John Robert Jones, who had been elected, and unelected in the
same hour, we speak of unelected in quotes, uh, was the official Chairman of the
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LUM 44A
Robison County Board of Elections.
S: That is correct. And, in this position, he endeavored to change the system that
had suppressed us, by naming Indianzregistrars, in precincts, and also naming
Black registrars, in precincts. And, uhm, precinct officials, judges, to help
in this election process, so that fairness and justice could finally be implemented.
He played a very significant role and one that I don't think is really surfaced at
this point, as to the significance, true significance, of what that meant.
B: Yes, yes, he is a great leader, I, uh, I can see lots of different forces working
together, Mr. Strickland, you know, to bring all this about, like a chain reaction.
Here is..here are social actions, uh, taking place, but before those social actions
began, and we had been of a static condition for so many years, uh, what do you think
sort of, started the ball to rolling and, uh, really started people thinking and
acting, uh, you know, for the betterment of the Indians, including the Indians,
themselves?
S: Well I, I truly think that, uhm, one of the most significant points, in my mind, is
that, uh, the president's message of July, 1971, of July of 1970, President Nixon
outlined a message to congress that the American.....uh, to, uh, to make available
self-determination for the American Indian. This created a national awareness for
the American Indian. And this down to us4 here on the local scene, because
of the advent of our activity in the local area, and my activity with the Lumbee
Regional Development Associat4/ ,Uh, I was very close to the situation, and, uh,
with the Lumbee Regional Development Associat4) we brought into our community, for
the first time, an all Indian program, with an all Indian staff, with an all Indian
Board of Directors, to help eliminate the problems of the Lumbee Indians, themselves.
It was really a very significant event, also, in our history.
B: Right. And, uh, we have a number of things working together, now, that didn't seem
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LUM 44A
to work together, they seemed to be isolated in the past. You know....?
S: Well, that's, that's very true. Lumbee Regional Development Associat4dO)at this
point, is the only organization that has ever survived the forces of power, in
Lumberton, for any length of time. It got funded in 1970, March of 1970, for the
first program, and now we're getting ready to enter into 1973.
B: Right.
S: And, uh, this program is going strong amidst all the problems, it's not rosy, but
it is progress, and when you have progress, you have progress.
B: Right. Well, it has growing pains, I'm sure.
S: Sure.
B: But, uh, it's certainly done, alot, and the thing, I don't know whether you agree
with me, but, uh, it seems to me that this is the organization that brought about
a very significant thing. And this was, uh, uh, we have many organizations, but
they have been divided, and they have not worked together.
S: Very true.
B: And, LRDA, it seems to me, uh, has been able, in some way, to coordinate these
various efforts, and, and to bring them together, sort of, and to unite their
strength, and to direct it, to some extent. Maybe not as much as LRDA would like
to do, but they certainly have come a long way, it seems to me, in this direction.
Do you think this is significant?
S: I think it's truly significant in the fact that, people from different communities,
as you know, we have 14 predominantly Indian communities in Robison county, and
our Board of Directors is from all SeCftr.S of the community, from the different
communities. And this, one of the first issues we resolved, is that we were going
to work together for the benefit of all Indians. And, this has been the stepping
stone to holding together the organization, in the initial stages of development.
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LUM 44A
Because people made up their minds that they were going to be in this for the
people, and not in a program because it was going to be something to their glory.
B: Uh-huh. Well, uh, I wanted to ask you something else, which has been of great
interest to writers, since time immemorial, I suppose, and that is, uh, the origin
of our people. We are a different people. I think every community is unique in
it's own way. Uh, but there has been alot of, uh, comment as to our origin and
our connection to the Lost Colony, and that sort of thing. Do you have any comments
on that? I seem to recall that you did an article in your capacity at Goodrich,
in one of the magazines. I seem to remember an article which appeared, uh, sev-
eral years ago, and did you write that, or were you connected....?
S: Well, it was an article, Lew, that was written about the American Indians, and, uh,
course, I supplied the information which came from you, by the way, for this art-
icle. I...I am of the personal opinion, of the theory, of the Lost Colony. I'm
very proud to be a Lumbee Indian.
B: Right.
S: Uh, I advocate this to the highest...uh, and to any, uh part of this nation upon
which I visit. And, you know, it's a very interesting story that we tell.
B: Right.
S: But, by virtue of the fact of being an east coast Indian, we are the forgotten
American Indians.
B: Right.
S: And, uh, consequently, we have been the ones who have suffered, uh, true assimilation,
and termination. Because of the non-treaties, uh, that were not given to us as
American Indians.
B: Right.
S: Uh, we have truly survived a very, very long and enduring plight of, uh, sufferage.
And, uh, therefore, I really, truly believe in the theory, of the Lost Colony. I'm
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LUM 44A
very, very proud to tell that story.
B: Well, it's certainly a story which is, uh, not only local interest, but of national
interest and significance. And, uh, do you think that this part of our story has
helped us in any way?
S: I certainly do. And I think, I think really, the true recognition is in the future,
for the lumbee Indian, because we're just beginning to be placed on the map, once
and for all, not just because we're Lumbee Indians of North Carolina, but because
of the fact that, uh, up and down the east coast, Indians have really never been
recognized by anyone.
B: Right.
S: They were just, sort of, called people, and that was about the extent of it.
B: And, uh, in ____book, Almost White uh, I believe it was dated 1960,
uh, he tells, of uh, some 200 groups of Indian survivors, and each one of these
groups seems to have a different story. Well, I know they do have a different
story. Each has his own story. But, he speaks to us...of us, as being the most
fortunate of all these 200 groups of Indian survivors. Uh, do you have any thoughts
along those lines?
S: Well, I think in terms of. relatively speaking, I would agree that we are fortunate.
In the sense of the word, fortunate and unfortunate, because as I have traveled,
up and down the east coast, and across the continent, and I've talked with and
visited other Indian tribes. And I've compared our situation to their situation,
and on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd say we compare, uh, they compare, midlevel, which
would be about 5 to our 10. Um, we do have more Indian schoolteachers, than any
other Indian tribe in this nation. Uh, and I attribute that to, uh, our education,
here at Pembroke State, uh, University, which began as an all Indian school, many,
many years ago. Of course, you're very well familiar with that story, and I won't
be redundant.
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LUM 44A
B: Well, ii, by way of supporting what you just said, I guess you're aware of the study
at the, what we call the Peck study, because it was conducted by John, Dr. John
Gregory Peck, at North Carolina State University, for the office of education, the
U. S. Office of Education. I believe that was, uh, oh, several years ago. I know
I helped with the, but the date, year escapes me. And they compared our schools,
this is before the integration act of 196--, uh,....
S: The (V14V1 Decision of 1954?
B: No, I'm talking about our, uh, integration plan when it went into effect.
S: Oh. (Coughs.)
B: But, they, what I'm trying to, uh, remind you of, is, uh,their statement, q9 the
conclusion of this study, this official government study, uh, which says that the
Lumbee Indian Schools were superior to those of any, any Indian schools in the
United States. And those schools generally are, as you know, uh, operated by the
federal government. Whereas, our system, uh, where we had auto...., some sort of
autonomy, uh, we had state support of our schools, and so on, and, Uh, do you see
any significant difference in, maybe I'm putting you on the spotA I don't mean to,
in state supported and federally supported schools?
S: Well, very true, yes, I do see alot of difference. And that difference is, as the
Indian people in themselves, uh, having a voice in- what effects them. For instance,
in the federal schools, Indians have no voice in the curriculum, in the educational
process,uhk, that affects their children. Whereas, in our situation, in the state
supported schools, we did have this limited, uh, jurisdiction of autonomy, in that
we had our school committees, and uh, normally, we had all Indian school teachers.
And we had, uh, an Indian principal over our schools. And this did not exist, uh,
in your federallywrecognized, Bureau of Indian Affairs situation, simply because of
the isolation and the, uh, lack of qualified Indian teachers, and if they did exist,
uh, then the white superintendent wouldn't hire them, because then he would be in
16
LUM 44A
there educatingQ the Indians that, uh, would present problems for him later on, and
consequently this, he didn't want.
B: Do you think this created sort of a vicious cycle, you know, uh, if you don't have
something, and you don't have anything to start with, you don't have anything
to build on, or to build with. But we had jurisdiction over our schools by virtue
of the law which established those schools, in 1865. And this law stated that they
should have schools of their own, with teachers and principals selected by them.
And this law remained in effect, until, uh, the integration situation came into
being, and ten it was disregarded, and there was a takeover, it seemed to me, a
political takeover of our schools, which was pinpointed in 1964, when the Robalson
PAP
County Board of Education, refused to seat a EEZ. as principal of Pembroke High
School. And instead, instituted a man of their own choice, who was a man with an
M.A. Degree. Uh, it seemed, do you see any, uh, significance, I'm trying to keep
the story, I'm thinking of the story as a whole. Do you see this as a significant
election?
S: A significant action on the part of the Rob son County Board of Education?
B: Yes, and our control of Indian schools. Our participation in the, uh, in the
control of Indian schools.
S: Of course, uh, we have to realize that in the event that this YS4. had been, uh,
appointed as principle, uh, of this all Indian school, he would have been a
catalyst for us, to not only have been the advocate for education, but also been
an advocate for the political process, and the economic process, of which we
really never had a voice in. And therefore, the powers to be, this superstructure,
thecourthouse gang, couldn't allow this to happen. Because, if that would happen,
then you'd have Indians wanting to be in county government, you'd have Indians
wanting to be in city government. And, certainly, you know that, uh, we're all
well aware, that there was this certain inhibition among our people, even though
17
LUM 44A
we were educated,. that we didn't venture out into the realm of the white man's
world, in the control of the politics, in the control of the banks, the savings
and loans, the eC e state, all money making propositions. We never really
had a voice at that time, and we didn't really have an advocate leader to, uh,
?hP
to lead us into those areas, and consequently, this is why the tnt..never got
the job, at Pembroke High School, at that time.
B: Uh, it was a very upsetting situation. I do know how dedicated this man was.
And I believe that this is the thing that brought about his untimely death,
because he worried about it, he was completely dedicated. Uh, he died of a
cerebral hemorrhage. Uh, my own personal opinion is that he died for this cause.
I'd inject this sort of as a footnote because I think it's very human, an inter-
esting footnote.
S: Very, very, very true, Lew, I couldn't agree more. Uh, however, I'd like to say
that if we could go back in time, I'd truly love to work with a leader such as
a)3 -4eeut) a
Dr. 4indine, today.
B: And we're talking about Dr. Herbert G. OxAndine; the late Dr. Herbeft G. Ofrs.-G
S: That is correct. Because, even as active as I am now, I feel that I could be so
much more effective, if I had someone to look up to, such as he. Who was really
an advocate for our people, who believed in taking the bull by the horns. And, uh,
because this is what is happening today, in Robison County, among the Lumbees,
We.:are having leaders to stand up and speak up for our people. And it's going to
bring about the unity on the political front, on the economic front. We now have
the Lumbee Bank, which is the first all-Indian bank in the United States of
America. It's gonna play a tremendous role, advocate role, in getting our voice
into the economy-making decisions, that affect 40 thousand Indians in Robason
County. We're going to eliminate this, uh, school system, and have a one county
18
LUM 44A
e_
system, for all the citizens of Robison County. This is going to be another
.'rr.iJA
significant, significant break And if I could, I'd just like to back up to two
points, and include it here, while I'm thinking about it. With LRDA, we init-
iated the first Lumbee Homecoming of 1970.
B: Right.
S: Which was made into an annual event. This all came about as a result of the
organization of Lumbee Regional Development Associates. I served as chairman of
that, for 1970 and 1971, and I remember very well, in the planning stages in
1970, I was told that it couldn't be done. I was told that it would not be
possible to do. But yet we pulled it off. And the same people that said it
couldn't be done, came up later and said, we did it, didn't we? (Barton chuckles.)
B: That's about the way people respond, isn't it?
C
S: And the...the other point that I'd like to make is that, going back to the Roblfson
County Board of Elections, the fight over the chairmanship. One personal example
that I can relate to, is my mother and father's situation. My parents have never
really been politically involved. Uh, during my childhood, and I'm sure that
preceding my childhood they were never really politically involved because, they
had been taught that politics was dirty. And that, their voice, their vote really
didn't make any difference.
Side 2
....explaining about the significance of the Robtson County Board of Elections
fight, is that, for the first time in my life, my mother and father took an
active voice and participation in the primaries. Uh, the general primaries in
the dtate of North Carolina. My father stayed at the polls all day, and talked
with all the friends U%1 they came in to vote. My mother served as a judge at
the precinct....Philadelphias precinct. And I never saw two more enthusiastic
people in my whole life. And it was all because of...they were able to see for
19
LUM 44A
the first time, the white man playing with the Indian, by trying to take John
Robert Jones, who was an Indian, out of the position of leadership for the Indian
people. And from, as a result of this, my two parents are current on all situations
on the political front, and they are very active, for the first time. And it's
just been a tremendous experience for me to know that this has happened.
B: I was, uh, I was, uh, thinking about several things. You know, you've touched
on some of the greatest events in our history, within recent.years, and indeed,
in years which aren't recent. Uh, what do you think is the most single significant
accomplishment of the Lumbee Indians, or, can you pull out one?
S: Well, that's a tough one, Lew. It really, it really is. Um, what I see is a,
relatively speaking, is a series of events in the past, in the past 12 months.
Because I think the timing was really of a great essence in this case. Number
one, that the emphasis had been placed on the plight of the American Indian by
the President. Uh, with the formation of the Lumbee Regional Development
Associates, we also brought about the North Carolina Commission on Indian Affairs,
on which I served as a member of the SCi committee. Uh, all these factors
add up to a healthy environment for the implementation of the events that took
place in our community, here, that benefitted our people. Uh, namely the,
probably, the, I'd have to say, if-there was one important recent significant,
uh, event, was the campaign to save Old Main. I, I just really think that this
campaign was of tremendous value, in the history of our people.
B: Well, I..I'm certainly in agreement, and, uh, I know you played a very significant
role in this. And when we started out together and agreed to forget all our
personal differences, if we had any, just forget them and let Old Main be our
goal2 det Old Main be our queens.t looked very sad and very dim, didn't it?
S: It certainly did. And the Old, personally speaking, to save Old Main is really
what was the straw that broke the camel's back. Uh, is when I became thoroughly
20
LUM 44A
disenchanted with the RobhAson County Democratic Party. Up to that time, I'd.
been fairly active in the organization, but because we were trying to save this
building, I asked the chairman of the Robghson County, uh, Democrat Party, that
time, who is known as William Earl Briggs. Who is a member of the Board of Trustees
at Pembroke State University, at the same time, to call a meeting of the exe-
cutive committee to give us an audience, to make a plea, um, so that they could
carry a message to the government, in our behalf. And this young man, uh, this
man stalled for three days. And, then finally, because of no answer, which was
the answer(he wasn't going to call the meeting I became thoroughly angry and
frustrated, with the political system, in Rob ison County. From that day
forward, I said that I wouldn't have anything to do with the Party. It wouldn't
listen to my opinion. So, therefore, I became very interested in the opponent,
at that time, which is the Republican Party. I attended their meetings. I liked
what they had to say. And, then looking back over the history of our people
for a hundred years, and then taking a look at political history, it just makes
good common sense, that a two party system breeds competition.
B: Right.
S: And that if we were gonna ever have a change, in Robokson, it would be brought
about by the political process, and not through the Democrat Party, but through
a two-party-system.
B: Right.
II
S: And it was so with....this is why I place so much emphasis on, uh, the Save Old
Main Campaign, because it really brought to light the real, uh, the real political
process that has held our people down, because we didn't get any help at all from
the Democrat Party. We got it all from the Nixon Administration and the Republican
Party. The first man to come out in favor of saving Old Main was Governor Jim
-4ooc-AO (see C
21
LUM 44A
B: Right. And it's interesting, as you know, uh, he began his campaign, here, at
one of the .....
S: 1971.
B: 1971, at..Annual Lumbee Homecoming.
S: July, 1971....
B: And he ended it here because he knew that was significant.
S: Right.
B: And do you remember what he was trying to tell minorities in Robinson County, at
that time, because these were very memorial words, and they are words which we
heeded, you know, They made some..they made so much sense. Uh, here is this, uh,
calm, dignified, well, he.....looking man, he just doesn't look the part of a
governor. He looks the part of your neighbor, next door and he talks in the same
things. Uh, but here he was, on the platform, uh, as I recall. And I know you
remember this, uh, because you were a part of it. And here he was on this plat-
form, with this very formidable politician of many years standing, a United States
Congressman, Eldon B.J.Leon, and when he spoke out, uh, and gave his reasons, to
the minorities in Robftson County, uh, this seasoned politician was stricken
speechless, it seemed. He had no response. Do you recall how stunned he was by
-those quiet, simple words spoken by this man, by this quiet unassuming man. You
know, JiI-zol Heoser is such, God, I'm glad I can call him a friend. (Laughs)
He is so dynamic, in such a quiet way. And what he says, you cannot escape it.
You have to think about it. Uh, ean you recall those words, or anything about....
S: It's the best of my knowledge, his message, essentially was, in the upcoming
primary, of 1972, he was going to be running for governor. And that there was 40
thousand Indians, here in Robeson County. And that he wanted them to give him
a chance to be their governor, and if they would give him a chance, to be their
22
LUM 44A
governor, that he would see that there was some real changes made, uh, for the
problems that exist among the people. And he said, 'Democrats have had you for
a hundred years.' He says, 'you just go with me once,' he says, if we don't do
it, you can always go back.' He said, just give us four years, out of those, out
of those hundred that you give the Democrats, and we'll make a difference.' He
says, 'you just give me a chance, and we'll prove that we'll make the difference.'
That's just about as well as I can remember it, to that effect. It may not have
been the same words.
rect /
B: (Coughs) Well, it certainly was a great speech, and as I member it, you know.
He said that the Democrates have had you in their power so long, they feel that
they....and in their pocket for so long, they are taking you for granted.
S: ...taking you for granted.
B: But if you change, just once, you'll find both parties knocking at your door. And
this was all new because we...no party sought us. I mean, they had us.
S: That's right.
/I /I
B: So, why seek us, or try to do anything for us, I mean, uh, the Democrats had us,
really, I should say. But, we didn't have enough Republicans in the county, to
make the kind of difference. But, uh, this is certainly history, and, uh, this
campaign which began here, ended here also. And, uh, as you know, that's the time
when, uh, Dennis Banks came in with his dramatic speech, and his...the Indian dances
down the aisle. I don't think there was ever a time in North Carolina history, uh,
when the political, uh, political shindig was so colorful. Do you? (Laughs)
S: No, I don't think so....I was not able to be in the area, at that time, because,
you know, I'm now working out of the area, in Washington, D.C. Um, but I did hear
about it, and our hearts were here. Commissioner rP'40+I tBlue and myself, MEM --
spent the night with him. We were both very, very close, if you can be close by
23
LUM 44A
telephone, we were very close.
B: Yes. I know you were. And, uh, would you like to say something about Commissioner
Blue because he has been so intimately connected with our problems AM has taken
the leading role, even at that distance, from Washington, D.C., and he has, uh,
he has been able to help in so many ways, don't you think, I mean......?
S: I think so, Lew, and I would just add here, is that I would hope that there would
be some way possible to get him interviewed as a part of this, uh, Doris Duke
Foundation Study that's been, uh, that's being done. But, to speak of Commissioner
0mly Blue, I don't think that I really can have enough words to adequately
express my appreciation for what this man has meant, not only to me, but to all
our people. Because he's played a very, very, significant role in helping to, to
be an advocate leadership role. Because it was he who wrote the letter to the
editor, about the Old Main issue.
B: Um-hmm.
S: He is the first Indian to ever sit on the Indian Claims Commission, appointed by
President Nixon. He is a Lumbee Indian, who became a lawyer. But by the virtue
of the fact that he was Indian, he was not allowed to take the North Carolina Bar^eY)Au)
And to come back and serve his people. And, consequently, he had to practice
law in Kinge- r*, Tennessee, where he married and raised a family. But, now,
after 20 years, he is in a very, very influential position, that he can help
channel information and guidance to the leaders on the scene, such as your self,
and to myself, and others tk were here at that time, to become the true advocates
and to gain that rightful role in the decision-making process, of our people, from
the county seat to our nation's capitol.
B: Well, that's great. What he has been able to do, an I certainly agree with you,
he is such a great man in so many ways. In his heart, he's not prejudiced against
24
LUM 44A
caucasions or blacks. But his heart is simply with his people. He recognizes
their plight. He understands it and he understands the process of getting some-
thing done about it. And he works night and day. I don't think there, I don't
know anybody who works longer hours, or goes to greater lengths to help in any
situation, than Brantley Blue, and he's this way toward all American Indian
I mean, this man works tirelessly, you know, their's no end to him..
S: (Coughs) That is very true. Uh, Lew, uh, I'd like..also, like to add as a
part of this interivew, that because of my involvement in Lumbee Regional Develop-
ment Associates, where I served as president of the organization. I came in
contacts of, with some people from Washington D.C., and they informed me of a
program for American Indians, where American Indians could be trained in
management, key management positions, so that when, uh, the internship was
completed, these people could move off into a lateral position, to become an
advocate for all American Indians. As a result of being invited to participate
in them...American Indian Intern Program, sponsored by the American Industrial
Development Council, uh, cosponsored by the Economic Development Administration's
Department of Commerce, I was placed as an intern with the Appalachian Regional
Commission, which is a 13 state operation. It is a presidential commission set up
by President Kennedy, but really fully implemented by President Johnson. And the
head of this commission reports directly to President Nixon on problems. This
golden opportunity in Washington D.C. gave me exposure to, uh, to, uh, to expand
my pedigree, professionally. But more important than that, it gave an exposure to
that Washington scene, to that process that exists. And I've come in contact with
numerous government officials on many occasions. And I've traveled from one point
of this continent, to the other, and talking with people. And this has also enabled
25
LUM 44A
me to, to see our problems from a distance. And even though that I'm in Washing-
ton D.C., my heart is here with my people and in daily contact with my people. And
because of the, the concerns, my concerns and other people's concerns, there was
a conference held in Washington, D.C., December 7, 8, 9. It was the first
conference of eastern Indians to ever be held, in our history. It was a history-
making event. As a result of this conference, there was an organization formed
called the Coalition of Eastern Native Americans, of which I was selected as
chairman, of this organization. It's a 29 state organization. And that it en-
compasses New York to Florida, and from Michigan to Mississippi. We are the east
coast Indians, and we are going to address ourselves to the problems of people
in local communities. And I might add at this point, that we plan to use the
Lumbee Indians, as a model for all other Indians up and down the east coast that
come and visit to see what's going on, to see how they can go back and do their
own thing in their own community, because I don't think we can adequately pre-
determine what the solutions to their problems are in that community. What I
think we can help them, to help make those decisions, to eliminate those problems.
And I think that by visiting the Lumbee community, this will give them a very
good experience to go back and to be of great assistance to themselves.
B: Um. That's great. Uh, have you, uh, have you, uh, seen any new problems arise
as a result of the progress that we have made? Do you see any new problems on the
horizon that have to be dealt with, or which may or will command our attention in
the next year or so?
S: Yes, certainly, you know, we've never really been an organized group of people
and we've never had what we called one leader or two leaders, or three leaders,
that could speak for the Lumbee Indians. However, you know as well as I do, that
26
LUM 44A
every flock has to have a leader, uh, of some shape, form, or fashion. Uh, I
don't really have the process by which this can happen, but I foresee the day,
in the very near future, where we will have community leaders, we'll have leaders
in each community, and then those leaders will come together to select a leader for
that group, so that when we speak, um, when that one person speaks, he speaks for
all the people because this is one of the reasons we've been forgotten so many
times, by the powers to be at the courthouse in Lumberton, at our nation's cap-
itol, or even in fact, at our nation's capitol, because on one issue, they could
get at least seven different contrary opinions. And in solving problems, this
doesn't serve as any kind of a catalyst's role. You have to be unified. You have
to have leadership in...some... This is one of the biggest problems that I foresee,
among our people.
B: So you think, uh, what do you thing about the future for our people, Mr. Strickland,
uh, uh, it looks bright, doesn't it?
S: The future is very bright. Uh, I see us as gaining significantly in voices, in
the educational process. I see us as becoming a very, very significant force in
the economics. More Indian-owned businesses, shopping centers, etc., etc. I see
us becoming unified, politically, in that, we will, in the next election, which is
two years from hence, that we will send to the House of Representatives, and also
to the North Carolina Senate, we will send our Indians to represent us.
B: Great. And this is such a contrasting picture from the one that we had, just 5
years ago, wouldn't you say?
S: Very true. Very true. We had nothing five years ago.
B: Nothing at all! Practically nothing, except our schools, and this is something that
our people have always believed in, that our salvation rested in education,
don't you think?
27
LUM 44A
S: Virtually, this has been our survival. Our churches and our schools, have been
the reason we've been able to survive, the white man's vindictive to eliminate us.
B: And right now, for example, when that, uh, decision, the integration plan was
brought into effect, which I refer to as being bogus, as being as bogus as a
nine dollar bill (laughs) uh, it just wasn't that at all, it seems to me. And,
uh, our people began protests and, uh... But what we were really striving for
was not, it seems to me, it was not so much separation, as a chance to participate
in the democratic process.
S: Very true. That's a very significant point, Lew, that I'm glad you made. Uh, is
that we don't want separation, we want participation. This is one of the things
that I truly advocate. And, I, I truly believe that everyone should participate
in a process that affects their very lives, uh, on the political and economic
front, and also on the educational front.
B: Well, do you think this is why the, uh, the political laws have been so .I:c J_
(Co0ut i) to stifle us or eliminate it. Is it because of a fear, a fear that we
might be able to dominate the county if we get at) lA opportunity?
S: Very true. Very true. They don't want to admit that we're their equals. And
they know that if we're give the chance, that this will come out. They already
know it. It's a question of other people knowing it on the state level and on the
national level. The people on the local scene already know it and they've been
able to suppress it, to this point.
B: Yeah. It seems that the cat's out of the bag, now, wouldn't you say?
S: Oh, she is out and I've heard her meowing a long time. (laughs)
B: Well, this has certainly been a delightful and informative interview. I had
looked forward to it and, uh, I certainly extend to you my appreciation and the
appreciation of the University of North Carol..University of Florida's History
Department and the Doris Duke Foundation. And we certainly look forward to
28
LUM 44A
getting Commissioner Blue and any other...body else that might be able to suggest
who would /rir (, i on the history of their people. Uh, we are certainly
0 {I to get them and we're trying to get some interviews. We want
this to be a very comprehensive program. We are striving very hard to make it
that. We certainly appreciate your interest and anything you can do, for the
Doris Duke Foundation. We greatly appreciate it.
S: Well, thank you, Lew. It's been, certainly, my pleasure to, uh, to participate
in this interview. I'm very honored that you asked me to, uh, be interivewed.
I don't really consider myself as \being really a great, great guy. I just try
to be somebody who tries to do just a little bit to help his people.
B: Well, we see ya, we see ya in quite a different light, but, of course, you've
always been a very modest person and you certainly have Zn __ a great
deal and, uh, anything you could say to anyone else, you know, who works in the
field and is informed us about us and about our accomplishments and anything in
that (Lr4e'5 I would certainly appreciate it. Is there anything you'd like to
add to all this? This has been so informative and interesting. I've been sitting
here just spellbound and listening to you. You know, it comes so easily because
you're so familiar with these things, you know.
S: Well, I don't think there's anything else, uh, that I'd like to add of any kind
of significant importance at this point Lew I jus look forward to the
computation of 44t K v\ d (S g. I Il LI.o
computation of b, w you interviewed, and certainly
between Commissioner Blue and myself, we will take a personal endeavor to see
that all the people that played an important prominent role, in our recent
history, and previous history. They will certainly see that you've gotten their
names, and the other people, so that they can be properly interviewed.
B: Well, we certainly would appreciate that because we are operating, as you know,
under some limitations. We don't like to complain about any personal limita-
29
LUM 44A
tions., or anything like that. We don't sit around feeling sorry for ourselves,
but we, uh, anything you can do to help, we do want to put the program high on
the list of priorities and it will be just as successful as we, the Indian
people make it....
S: Right on.
B: ...like the other programs, you know.
S: Right on.
B: And you've always been so kind and so cooperative, that I appreciate you so much.
And I thank God for a young man like you, with your-dedication, with your know-
ledge and with your concern for your people. I say this, knowing that you're,
with all your concern with our problems, that you're not a prejudiced person.
And you never have been. You don't, you're not prejudiced against other people,
but you simply see the need, uh, to serve your own people, you know.
S: That is very true.
B: I hope I'm saying that well, but I know I'm not. I get a little emotional about
what I...about my friends, uh, you know, and I certainly consider you that.
S: Thank you very much, Lew.
B: Thank you very much, and a happy holiday season.
S; (laughs) Happy holiday.
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