|
COPYRIGHT NOTICE
This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.
Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.
This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limts the amount of material that may be
used.
For all other permissions and requests, contact the
SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LMM
DORIS DUKE FOUNDATIONS-AMERICAN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
LUMBEE 36A
INTERVIEWER: LEW BARTON
INTERVIEWEE: MRS. WOODROW DIAL
OCTOBER 9, 1972
I: This is October 9, 1972. I am Lew Barton interviewing for the
Doris Duke Foundations, American Indian Oral History Program under
the auspices of the University of Florida. Today I am in the home
of Mr. and Mrs. Woodrow Dial. W-o-o-d-r-o-w-D-i-a-l. And with me
is Mrs. Dial. I wanted to talk to you for a long time because to me
you're a typical Christian and we all appreciate your sharing some
of your ideas and ideals with us. And I find in talking with people
who come in from the outside Mrs. Dial, their concepts of Christianity
are not always the same as ours. Our people really take their religion
very seriously, you know. And, uh, but first let me ask you about
yourself. Would you tell me your name and your husband's name and
age?
S: You want my age too? (Laugh) also? Or just his. May I say I have
been here for quite a while. I am sixty. Sixty the 13th of June, 1972.
My husband, Woodrow Dial is 58. He was 58)May 31, 1972.
I: And before you married you were .?
S: Agnes Io3aChdiis Dial-idaughtereverand ---Chais and Agnes
B. Chaqis. We are quite well known amongest our people. I guess
you would say from one end of North Carolina to the other.
I: Right.
S: She was--in her field she was a doctor. And he was a preacher. He
2
was an old-time uneducated He definitely knew the Bible. And
he was very dedicated to his work and she was. And being brought
in a Christian home, I think it's about the most wonderful thing
could happen to an American boy or girl. I see the need now the
need of Christianity in the home from the beginning to the end.
I: Of course you are speaking in terms of being a practicing Christian.
S: A practicing Christian is a wonderful way toput it because I do
everything for the Lord I can do. You know, as far as possible
for me to.
I: And you know we were talking just a moment ago before we started
this tape. And I remarked on how happy you always seem and I said,
"lola, you're a happy girl." And what was that you said to me?
S: Well, the secret--I said the secret. There is one secret in
being happy. You love the Lord; you know he loves you; you love
people. And if you love people, people are going to love you back.
I don't care where you go or what race or how high up in society they
are or how lowly or humble--if you love people, they are going to love
you back. I found that on the streets. Sometimes I test it you know.
I go along and say,O.K. I'm going to smile from here to that post.
Well, I smile from there to that post. And I'll bet you there is
not five people out in 25 that don't smile back and say hello.
I: Contagious, isn't it?
S: Yeah, yeah. It spreads. You know that's the way the Lord said for it
to--he said" Love thee one another even if I have loved you." You
know if there is no love, there is no getting along: not in your
home, not in your church, not in the community, not in the road. You
just don't get along, if there's no love.
3
I: Well, that reminds me of another question and that is the young
people throughout American today are talking about love and singing
about love. And some of them are talking specifically about the
love of Christ. And they are saying that love is the answer to all
the problems of the world. Would you go that far?
S: If you dig deep enough you will find that love is the answer to all
when
the problems becauselyou start, you start at top go to the bottom or
start at the bottom and go to the top. Either place yodre going to
find love at the top or love at the bottom. So that the young people
are doing what we should have done years ago.
I: Right.
S: Because there wouldn't have been so much envy, strife, and greed and
all the bad things that have happened to us if we had expressed love.
Yesterday, if I may say this, yesterday I went to Stuart's Cemetery
over about--John--somewhere over-in John's Station. It's a real
old cemetery.
I: Yes.
S: But here--here was buried the Indians, here was buried the whites
and here is buried the colored. The only thing they had between
;tom
the, you know, was stone posts all the way down. And these ama-
guards, I think they call them. But that's all that divided them.
I: Uh, huh. This is a very old graveyard isn't it?
S: Oh yes. Seventeen-seventy--seventy-seventy something. I remember
it's the oldest one that's really been--there were a lot of graves
that the markers, you know were so old that they were out you couldn't
tell when they were put down or anything. But here's what I think.
I think that even back then that they expressed more love than they
4
did for a period in between here. Now these young people. They
are going to do away with this that we've had. And they express
that love. They let you see it. And you know what we've done to
our people, our young people? We say O.K, you're a good member of
the church, you're a good mother, you're good in your home. O.K.,
well you've got this child over here and he's--well, he's in the
home so he can here. What'd do, what'd say, how you act? W&ll,
you're going to get out there on the outside and present a good
front to the public. But in this house, it's not like it is out
there. And that child starts to rebell right then--and I'm not
going to be like my mother--I'm going to out here--I'm going to be
what I am. And if they want to rob, they rob and if they want to be
good, they're good. They're good all the way. When you find one's
that's good, he's really good.
I: The surprising thing that different children come up in the same
family--the same family background and no two of them come out exactly
alike. Uh, I've known children who were born in homes that people
who bootlegged whiskey and they turned out to be wonderful.
S: Very good--in all seriousness. Well, .
I: And then the other extreme, too, you now.
S: Well, no two people are alike, even in a family--no two people are
alike. You're you and I'm me--I'm your brother or your sister but
still I have different views and ideas about different things. But,
no two people don't think alike. And when the human race comes to the
conclusion that you were right to think what you want to think, but
take, you know the good people--take from there and build up good in
5
that person's mind that wants to think evil and let him think--let
him think good. If hw sees that you are living a life, he or she,
if you are living a straight life infront of the children, there is
somebody willing to take a pattern after you. Now these boys at
this station, that you might say--well you know practically all of
them. I mean, you know how they are around here. There's not a one
of them much that will let me hear him use foul language, because
I told them when they were little, I'll wash your mouth out with
soap or I'll whisk you. The big boys believe now that I whipped
them. Well, I never touched them in my life. And wouldn't.
I: But they don't know this do they?
S: No, and I hope that they don't hear this! (Laugh) Because if they
did, it might be--no, I don't think that--they all respect me and
if they don't love me, they put on a very good front. But youkcow
it's wonderful, like I told you at the beginning, you love people,
they love you back--good or bad.
I: lola, you look like a, you know, I hope you don't mind my remarkind
on this. You look like a typical Indian, you know.
S: Very, very, very proud of this. (laugh)
I: You're very proud to be an Indian?
S: I'm very, very proud to be an Indian and I'm very proud of the success
that our people have made during this, would you say decade?
I: Right.
S: I just hope to go on to high heights and deeper depths. You know,
I think--I think that we have had a lot of success because we are
dedicated Christians. If you notice, we don't have, uh, I'm not
6
bragging, I'm stating a fact. We don't have storms and all to come
you know, as often and as violent and severe as most people. But
the older people are mostly dedicated Christians. and the young
people are becoming that.
I: And you think this is true of our people generally?
S: Generally, yeah, everywhere. Yeah, I go to quite a few churches.
And you'd be surprised at the young people that take even more
interest in church affairs than I do, than we do. I mean, you
know, I try to know and do what I can do for--some of us are very
lax my age. And, the young people are on the ball.
I: Some people from the outside who come in and observe, uh, you know,
Christians among the Lumbee Indians. I have heard the remark made
that this was a very strict kind of Christianity. I mean, they live
by a code, by certain rules and they're certain things you do and
certain things you don't do and all this sort of thing. And, this
is the way it appears to some of them. But, uh, is this a true
picture do you think or. .?
S: Yes, definitely--definitely it's a true picture. Because right here
as long as I could, in.fact I don't now let my children go fishing
Sunday. I teach against going Sunday. Anything to keep the Sabbath
Day holy. And I hope my diL4en are going to teach their children the
same thing. Because in doing that, you keep this spirit of Christianity
going like that. And if you've noticed, there--Christianity is
------'), you know generally of the land.
I: Right.
S: But we're trying--we're trying to keep our strict rules and keep our
children in line like that and our children's children. Don't you know,
7
lead them. Now you take nowadays, you have to--you don't tell,
you ask; that's what I do, I ask mine, I don't tell them. Now
my mother told me--you go to Sunday school--you go to Sunday school!
I: I've heard she demanded you to, didn't she?
S: You go to Sunday school today. I went to Sunday school today and
every Sunday. And I, if she said -- I- 1
I: How about discipline in the family; )uld they tan your hide?
S: Are you kidding?! I only got two whippings in my life that lasted me
a lifetime. I did--I got one about taking eggs--I took egg out in
nest but it was a setting hen's egg. I got torn about that. I never
forgot it. If she sent me to get eggs, I got the eggs she sent me for.
I: Do you think Lumbee Indians are pretty strict disciplinarians generally
speaking?
S: More so I think than many of the other people. They say we're too
strict but I don't think so. We're generally, we can move our-L -r
You know some of the younger people are going against this
strict stuff--but I think tanning their hides helps them. In fact, I
know it, because I've done it.
I: As I recall, I never had but one whippping in school and that was
Reverand Lonnie Jacobs and I was in the llth grade when this happened
to me and I was up large enough--I thought I was q44c ng anyway. You
know, and I pleaded with this man, he was principal of Prospect School.,ie
_- C I pleaded with him not to whip me let me do anything else. He said,
no you get this whipping or you go home. And I didn't want to quite
school, so I took it, you know, that was the choice he gave me. But
later on, I appreciated it and I went to him and told him I said, I
deserved and and you did the right thing and I'm glad you did it.
8
S: It was just. All right, that's the way the Indian people are
generally. They have the ideas along those lines. Now the
younger people are obiLgated to get out--the way they discipline
their children.
I: He used long switches. I don't know whether the parents use
switches any more. But I don't know whether our listeners and
readers know what a switch is, maybe.
S: This girl uses a switch! (laugh)
I: You cut down a baby tree, sort of. (laugh) A small limb off-
or a--now that's exaggerating but it's--sometimes it's long as
I am and these oak switches--when they cut you around the legs
with them, they wrap around your legs two or three time. And,
oh, boy.
S: Well, then you remember the next time not to do what you did that
time.
I: Right.
S: A different thing in a different way. But you don't do that same
thing over and over.
I: It mind have been a crude and rude way of ding it, but I sure got the
message.
S: We still get the message. l was out at the recreation center fishing
last year and uh, there was a little old lady. She's 87. We call
her Aunt Duck when she's coming across the river. And she saysi-she
had a little boy with her and she had three big fishing poles. He just
took one you know and wanted the fish and dabble with it a little bit
so she took it--and he took it, she says, boy if you don't put my pole
down, I'm going to turn your hide. She went over there and got her a
9
switch--this long. Now he didn't even bother--he didn't bother that
pole anymore. He says, Grandmother will do exactly as she says.
I: Uh, huh. And the older people, some of them, made your drop your
pants if you happened to be a boy. They said they didn't believe
in whipping clothes. They wanted to whip you
S: Yeah, my mother didn't whip my clothes, she whipped me. (laugh)
I only got two whippings but I remember them.
I: But don't you think we've softened up some in this respect?
S: We have, yeah. We don't do as much as we used to. We do--we
don't--I don't think we do quite as much as we should.
I: Id you got a whipping in school and came home, would you likely
get another one?
S: Definitely. And that is what I told my children. And I never knew
that one of them got whipped until they graduated, both of them, from
high school.
I: When they got whipped, they didn't tell it at home, did they?
S: Never, never. I never knew Junior got whipped. I thought he was
a model child. He says I got whipped plenty, but if I had told you
when I come home, you would have whipped me again. And I would have.
I: Is this to show that the teacher and the parent stand together in
this matter of discipline? Do you think this is why this is? Do you think?
S: Definitely. And I think, you know, if the parents of today wouldn't
side with the child. Because when that child goes in that classroom,
it is under that teacher's care just like at home under your care.
I: Right.
S: And unless she's a different person from what I think school teachers
10
should be, she's not going to whip that child unless if he gets
a paddling he deserves it.
I: Right.
S: And the parents instead of that though, they will go out and there
and well, now you whipped my child and I come out here to see why.
She shouldn't question that--you sent your children to school and
you ought to could trust--you ought to could trust the teachers;
in some instances you know that it has been I think they over-
disciplined the child--maybe ---- too much. I don't believe
in that but I believe in tanning their hid enough to make them mind
you.
I: But if somebody--if somebody punished the child, you know actually
thought the child was guilty and then it turned out the child was not
guilty of this, what would the parent feel likely to say or the older
parents anyway? Do you remember'the attitude they would take?
S: No, well, I never did experience that. Let's see, but I think they
would have said that, uh, if she felt that she right, she was right.
I know that's what the older people thought.
I: My grandmother--I was thinking about my grandmother who whipped me
once. And I hadn't done what she whipped me for. And after it was
over, she said--more than likely you did it at one time or another.
And this made my mother furious because I was the only boy in the
family and she, uh, my mother resented this very much. But my mother
did not dare speak one word to her mother about this thing.
S: How well I know that. How well I know that. It's different today.
I think that the attitude that the parents take toward teachers.
My child is too good to be whipped or my child didn't deserve this or
11
even my child do deserve a low grade. If the teacher don't
know who does? (Background: "We sure don't know, do we?") No.
I: This, about the family structure among the Lumbee Indians, would you
think it was oriented patriarchal type of family or you know, where
the husband is the absolute head along those lines?
S: The majority of the Lumbees are. Now there's a few who know that--
that think different. And, uh,
I: Not many Indians are members of Woman's Lib, are they?
S: (Laugh) No--I told them that Women's Libhas really messed a bunch
of us up. (laugh) I definitely believe a woman's place is in the
home. I mean, you know, she can take a part-time job I think and
work some--enough to get a form of recreation for herself maybe.
But this going out and taking a job--I don't believe init. A
woman should be at home and raise her children.
I: And you think raising the children is more important than the rest
of it, you know?
S: Definitely more important! A child from years 1-6 is moral standards
are built then. From 1-6. Now, all these women that work, they've
got babysitters and they take these kids to the babysitters. And the
babysitter has one set of rules to tell you. When they come home at
night and the mother and father have another set of rules and regulations.
That child's confused. What does he know that's right? You say well
Miss so and so said so and so and did so and so. Now you're doing this
different. It's nothing but confusion for children. They don't know
who is right.
I: Right. I think--the parents ought to be agreed and if they are in
12
disagreement, disagree not before the child but somewhere else.
S: Oh, no. Definitely, definitely not.
I: Well, there is one thing, lola, I don't agree with-about our
family structure. That is, the old practice of--you know of our
people they're getting away from this, aren't they? And this is)
they will thi(land to the boys and leave the girls out. Well, the
girl can marry property but the boy should have, uh.
S: All of the land, well. yeah, I
I: Are they getting away from that?
S: I believe they are. Well, I know I wouldn't allow anything like that
to happen in my home. Now Woodrow's father did that. You know how
he did and how he did. But I would not allow that.
I: But he was just one of many. I mean, this was the general .
S: The general rule among the Indian people. I mean, you know, that's
the way they did it.
I: And this is part of thae-ar*ekarehal-family structure the way
is used to be I understand. In England, for example, this was once
the rule. Uh, we are cha ng some, aren't we, don't you think?
S: We are changing some. You know--I'll tell you the ones that follow
their parents' rules are more strict than we. There are some of us
that don't. You know we think different from what our parents thought.
But most of them now, up around Prospect and across the river-L --
-----------. Now they think just like they used to.
I: They haven't changed much, have they?
S: No, un, uh they say well my father did this and my father was right
and I'm going to do the same things. As a general rule, I believe
they're changing, because I wouldn't have let anything like that
13
happen. I give my girls just about even with the boys, because
I think that's fair
I: A lot of interesting things about our people, about the family
structure, and so forth to other people because, uh, well, to
some people everything about the Lumbee Indian is interesting)or
nearly so.
S: I'm proud of that. I mean I'm proud to be a Lumbee.Indian. (laugh)
I'm proud that they think that much about us because, as for us, I
Cile/1 e:e
think that we've come along pretty fear. Because'practically brought
ourselves up by our own boot straps, I mean without any help. For
years and years and years, we didn't get help for anything. We
supported our own schools, our own, definitely our own churches,
our own association, everything. You know, the Methodist
conference, the Baptist conference--we supported our own and
we had to work hard to do that but we did it.
I: And sacrifice a lot.
S: Definitely. That's about all we did was sacrifice and I'm proud of
what we accomplished.
I: Do you think this helped us to appreciate the church and the school
more?
S: I thinkso--I think that's one reason why, you know, as we say the
people think that we are so dedicated. We do appreciate what we've
gotv-our education, our churches; well, as far as we've come everywhere,
politically, and oh, all, you know we used--nobody voted in here or did
anything like that. i t A[ Aee ?
I: Do you remember ever attending a Mg h-8l vr ()r mot.ieng?
14
"I Aror Me I
S: No, my father told us about the Brush-Harvar ( eetingl. I don't--
I believe Harbart was talking about that yesterday.
I: 1arbart Moore.
S: No, my brother IPrbart. Is it him or brother Jim?
Af( r
I: Well, do you know what they were like and why we had Brush-Harvar
meetings?
S: We didn't have no churches to have meetings in.
I: Is this because we weren't allowed to have churches, do you think?
S: No, we weren't--well, no, we weren't allowed to have churches then of
our own. We were, well, I would say we were persecuted that way too)
because we weren't allowed to have our own churches, our own schools
for quite a while you know. And remember, I believe our first school
was, uh, was it Old Saint Anna, I mean that I remember my daddy talking
about around here, for us. They called it the Academy and you know,
0o Ae colorece
these folks waatAschool but then they got tired of that because they
definitely knew they were not colored. And, uh, they went out there
and had their meetings and built these, I call them platforms--they
put wire or strings or something up on posts--and then put the you
know pile brush and stuff up there. Go ahead and have you a good
meeting. Had good meetings too, they said.
I: I bet they had good times at those churches.
S: Oh, yeah.
I: I know the meetings--I know many of the churches are very emotional
and you know, ome people say this is good and some people say it's
not so good. It depends on your point of view. But, uh, I like that
myself. How about you?
S: Definitely. If I--I wouldn't have a religion I couldn't feel. I don't
15
count it religion if you don't feel it. You're going to feel
it someway and you're going to express it someway. You're going
to express it and show your love for somebody. You're going
help somebody. You don't definitely have to get up in the church
and shout from one end of the other. Of course, that is wonderful;
I love that too. And I love good ole testifying me--we have those.
And some of our members get very emotional--I'm proud of. I get
emotional sometimes.
I: Do you think this helps to bring other people into the church?
S: Definitely, definitely. If you here, now take for instance the
revivals, they had the youth revivals. Now you heard from them--
you know we had whenever they begun the youth revival. Well, the
young people and the old people and all they were out in the yard
and everywhere praying and singing and confessing the Lord and having
a good time in all those meetirgseverywhere.
I: lola, what happened over there. I heard, was this last year you're
talking about?
S: Yes.
I: Everybody came home and the kids started talking about everybody
being converted or claiming religion or being saved or whichever
way you want to put it. And it seemed this was a wholesale sort of
thing. I never heard of it happening that way before. Was there a
definite reason that you know about. I mean, any kind of influence
that's--or was this just a phenomenon?
S: It was a phenomenon. It spread--just from one to the other. You know,
it went to the school house; it went to the churches; and in the homes.
People were being saved in the homes. Well, the preacher called me yes-
16
terday evening. Said he went to a home and there a man saved
there. It's still going on. They're having those meetings right
on.
I: This is the first time I have ever heard of that happening. Sort
of a spiritual in this magnitude, you know.
S: Well, I'm proud of it. I mean.
I: However, it came about. It's a good thing, isn't it?
S: It's a good thing. It certainly is and I love it. You know, there's
a lot of the teachers that wasn't in favor of that revival they
had at school but they had the revival and they couldn't stop it.
I mean, you see. No, not one ding in this world.
I: You know there was ruling passed by the court a few years ago.
You know, making it unlawful to read the Bible or pray in church
or this sort of thing. Do you think affected our people anyway?
S: No, no.
I: They went right on doing it.
S: They went right on doing it just like they always have. Watch out.
I: Uh, in other words, they figured in this case that God's law was
superior to man?
S: Yeah, well, God's above man anway. And, well, our people believe
that wholeheartedly. You don't find very many atheists I guess
you'd, in--among Lumbee Indianpeople. You will find some that will
say, "I don't believe in God." But ifhe gets sick or something
happens to him, that's the first an he calls on. He's been taught
that from bab d u and things l*ke that you know.
SA lot of these people they Je -- =-' -------.--------
S Yeah, yeah. I've got a daughter, you know, she never says a thing
17
about that. She come home and we had remodeled our church and
fixing to scrubbery around it and it looks very different from
II II
what it did. She said, mama this is not the old church anymore.
You know, we had a little board church. Now it's ---k-b closed.
It don't seem like the same but still have to and I enjoy it.
I: I've heard remarks made about he great number of churches we have.
Some people wonder if this is a good thing or not a good ding.
S: It must be a good thing or it wouldn't happen. I mean, I don't
think that it would have made it happen. Now, they'll say, O.K.,
we've got confusion in our church. Now I now where this is one
church, there was confusion--split the church right then. But the
other part of the church, which was different part of the community
that people didn't even go to church. And that community is completely--
it is a completely Christian community, even the young people. That
was good.
I: So you think the Lord can take something that isn't altogether good
and bring something altogether good out of it?
S: I:know he can do what he sets out to do. (laugh) He can do anything.
I: Uh, this is certainly one way the church has spread, I imagine not
only in our community but in communities all over. But, how about
communications between churches and church people. People don't
frown on you if you go to a church different from theirs, among our
community, do they?
S: Not any more, not any more, no. They're all--not during our youth
revival and what we call our main revival--we have denominations.
We have Methodist, we have Baptist, we have Holiness, we have Church
of God people, we have--I don't know if.e. have- anm.Jehoyah Whtnesses
18
or not. But we do have all other denominations I named. And I
believe we did have one or two Jehovah Witnesses. I don't know
if they come in for, you know, out of curiosity or because they
like the way the worship. But.,,.., (-s ...==--w
1 /Ijust don't have any of those.) ".No, we do have some Catholics
That you see the boys went off and married--you know Steve married
a Catholic girl. Her children go to the Catholic school, uh church.
That's Steve church. And it don't make no difference. If you're
a Christian, you're a Christian. I don't--denominations--that's
manmade. That's a manmade custom--denominations because, if you're
a Christian--you're a child of God. That's all that matters.
I: Iola, would it be too painful to you to talk about your father a
little bit?
S: No, I enjoy talking about my father. For a while, I missed him.
I still miss him. But for a while there, I couldn't talk about
him much without crying and people would say well of all the things
well now see. .and all that suffering. I knew that--they didn't
have to tell me that! But I just couldn't do anything but cry. If
you can't help it, yodre going to do it.
I: How long has it been since he passed away?
S: In '69.
I: In '69. It hasn't been long. And how old was he?
S: Ninety-nine.
I: Ninety-nine.
S: Uh, huh. And he hadn't retired. Background: I heard so much about
"- ii,tHe was a minister. He hadn't retired. He was getting-t- ---
-'c -^^yJ cfse ^r
19
I: I know you've heard him say how old he was when he first started
r--------?U
S: Oh, I've forgotten.
I: He was just a boy wasn't he?
S: Uh, huh. Was he 12 or--I believe he was 12 or 15 years old.
But he good--uh, daddy said he was the good one in the family.
I'm not bragging--I'm stating a fact. I'm saying what she
said. She said it don't matter what you put--they called him
Zim--his name was ---- and they called him Zim. It don't
matter what I had to do that was particular. I could leave Zim
to do it and it was done. And he was scared to death of a gun.
And I don't believe he shot but one in his life and killed a cat
accidentally. He, uh, before he was born, now this is one of the
superstitions, you know,that our folks have. That before a child r
born, you know,if his mother's frightened, he'll be the same way.
When. .
I: The child will be --------
S: Yeah, when Henry B(rry Lowry was hiding out then and Granny and
Grandpap had a big plantation. They had fences and they had their
orchard up side the fence. And Granny was there getting apples in
her apron. That was ----two-four--Daddy was four. He come across
the fence of this thing and he seen the condition she was in. And
he said he couldn't turn around and go back, because if he did, you
know, she was stooping down to pick up apples so if she'd heard me,
II
when she turned around, she was all frightened. So he said, Miss
II
Chavis, don't be afiid, I'm not going to hurt you. She turned around
20
and looked at him. She said she liked to have died, because,
you know, she had heard so much about him. (Background: And
you do remember your grandmother pretty well?) es, I do, yes.
F (Background: how old was she when she died?) She was 84. My
mother was the same age when, uh, my mother died.
I: How many children do you think your mother helped to bring into
the world? Have you any idea?
S: I wouldn't say. I wouldn't dare say. Now, Brother Ulsey has a
record to those, pages. And it's a file of them, which she was.
I: It was in the hundreds or thousands.
S: I believe they said the last--the last account they had on her;
I believe my sister said there were 1900 and something. She did
quite a few after daddy. A Ou know they completely abandoned
midwives.
I: Yeah.
S: She was too old anyway. J t I have seen her go and when she come
C C? ) re
in--her sfk I .. .. would b for Thursday night here and they
wore long dresses and ------ --walking, you know, go across the
foot log in the winter and go and make her baby. (background: she
was blessed.) ^ ------.....
S: Yes, she was blessed. She didn't suffer--I believe it was about
six hours; she was ----- old lady. Went out and looked at
her flowers, Wednesday, I believe she said. She showed me what
she wanted. And then she said, come spring, I'll not be here when
HI II II
they out. I .said, Mama how you do talk. That's craxy! And she
had been in there playing with the grandbaby, Avis's children.
21
Certainly she used to --------.
I: All of the older people were--were they more neighborly to each
other than people today?
S: Yes, well, you know I think now like--like the old saying is,
"I measure everybody's corn by my half bushel." Now I think my
intents are good. But you know intents don't feel a hungry person's
stomach or don't help a sick person do a thing. But I think people,
like me, they have so much to do they just don't get to it. Now you
take when mama and daddy was raising us and all, all we did was pick
cotton, and worked in a little bit of tabacco and visit people. And
if somebody got sick, it didn't matter how long they stayed sick, if
they stayed sick a month. You know they had--or months--they had people
to sit up with them and tend to them.
I: People would come from miles and miles around here. Your father
would pray for them especially if they were sick, wouldn't they?
S: Yeah, yeah, and I have seen that faith exercised here so much
until.
I: He was so good. He was loved by the people.
S: When he was sick, now people came. ..
22
SIDE TWO
I: Side two--side two of the interveiw with Mrs. Woodrow Dial.
Uh, you were talking about your father, I believe, when we
so
ran out of tape. I was listeningtintently to what you had to
say, I didn't realize it was out of tape. I wonder if we could
kind of go other this called his healing ministry. A I saying
it correciy?
S: Yeah, that's all right.
I: Let's talk about &iat a little more. We-and what you were just
saying is very interesting.
S: Well, I asked him why couldn't I train and do the same thing he did
because we served the same God and we prayed the same way and all.
But he says,'Row this comes with age. When you get to the place where
the things of the world don't bother you, then you'll have time to
dedicate yourself to the Lord. And that way you can do it too."
But you've got to have faith--you've got to have the faith. And he
had a passage in, I believe it's St. James the fifth chapter, the
last of the fifth chapter of St. James that he always decided before
he prayed. And, uh, well, if when I get in trouble or when somebody's
sick or something, I sit down and I read that chapter. I really don't
mind--I read that chapter and then I pray and then I get relief. Now
I don't--I think the gift--I think healing is a gift.
I: Think it's a divine gift?
S: Yes, I do. I think it's -- i -_L _S a gift too. But if our
faith is strong enough, we can some of the things that we want to do
23
You know, God will hear us. But there is things we ask for--we
don't know what's good for us--he does. I know one fellow got up
in my church and asked the church to pray. He lead the prayer
for his brother to change. I don't care how it comes about. Now
this is the way he prayed. I don't care how it comes about. You
see, he was in a high emotional state and I don't think he was
thinking about what he was saying too much but only he wanted him
changed. It was to drink, bad to curse, bad to do everything that
wasn't good. He said I want you to change. When he come back
to church, that was on Wednesday night prayer meeting. And when he
come back to church Sunday, he was crying and asked the church and
Brother Jim to pray for him. He says, what's the matter? He says
"Alice has been shot in the eyes. -- 4---
I: With a shotgun maybe? I
S: Um, huh. With a shotgun. Brother Jim says --- ---- says
/f I, I ,r
remember the prayer you prayed Wednesday night? He says, yeah.
He says --- ---------- ------
----- ---- And __yl dIg going right straight
and retract that prayer. He says, don't do it. That--he knows that's
saying that we ought when we ask for things like that, we ought to
know what we are doing.
I: Well, he's certainly a man who has been missed and will be missed for
many years to come. Sometimes we wonder who's going to replace a man
like that. But really nobody can, can they?
S: I don't think so. I mean they've been well-liked by the-------------
L-
24
You remember Daddy always wanted to pray that he received the
gift that he had. And Jim always said, Now Pa, I can't
---, I have to have mine. And, so he kept on and on and
on but let me tell you what happened. Brother Jim had said and
said and said that h didn't, well, he didn't think he could ever
come near f't. qNow people go to Jim just like they did my daddy.
He prays for them. He goes to the prison in the afternoons.
i--- tl ----so forth. He started just like Daddy. When Daddy
started, he went to some of the meeting association --
"- "'---. The public was shocked. He asked them about, you know,
when the Lord called him, when he really dedicated his life to them.
I don't know if you remembered when he was sick--I believe he was
about 74 years old, we he had a hemorrhage,l know you heard about
it but you didnt--probably forgotten. But he asked those men about
it, and he said, Oh, no, there's nothing to that; that was done
in the Old Testament. I-didh.e---- ----- ----------; he
didn't intend for us to do that, some of our leading ministers.
He come on back, well, he didn't do it. But he got sick. Remember
Lewis when we stayed over there in the ole' John Wood's place, that's
what it was. And, uh, (Background: Put your mic on there if you
want.) They would have o-do ---- -, you know.
They were looking for him to die every night7-every day and every
night. But he had two--he had -
And they took X-rays of him and they tell us that his lungs were
(AL eat out. ckground: Your daddy? My daddy. They says his lungs
Share eat up. So, well we just give up, you know. Woodrow I believe/
25
stayed that night. -was ----------came in the next morning.
Woodrow said he had prayed through the night. As weak as he
was, he'd had another hemorrhage. And the doctor suggested
---- h And this old nurse come in
and she prayed -----. -
-- -- : ___---------------. About 4 o' clock
the next morning, he woke up and wanted ice and sugar.
I: Wanted ice and sugar.
S: Ice and sugar. Children he mended from then right on, he mended;
well it was just. (Background: What did the doctor say?) They
took him back down to X-ray. And they couldn't understand 1 .i.
Well, the old nurse tried to tell him.-----------------------
eJ '-< ,',, _,,,
--- r ----------- And he said he
dedicated himself and we told him what he said to do no matter what.
He says, I'll go on in spite of what everybody says, I'll go on and
do what you want me to do. Says all right -----o---you go and----;
come back and when they took him down they X-rayed him. The doctors
they took the X-rays and they said, those are clear as a bell. Well,
somebody says, well what went with this, I mean what happened? Well,
I,
one of the doctors, Dr. Meese, Dr. Maze, Dr. Maze says,well, all we
can say is, he swallowed a whole lot of that clotted blood and he
had his lungs covered and he passed on. That's everything they could
i!
say. And one of them they mid, well, he was in the hands of the Lord.
I: Well, they had to explain it scientifically didn't they?
S: Yeah, well, they had to, you know that. (Bakground: they had to put
--.----. ~ ~ : ..
i t down) Yeah. Well, this one of them that's a Christian--I don't
what he's a called now. But he says, this is a miracle, this is a
26.
S..... -- swallowed the cancer, the cancer you know.
SI didrit know! I tell you it was wonderful and it was wonderful to
see how he mended, how he come home, and he had the Indian people.
And the first girl I see come in there, I believe it was, uh, the
the old man Don Clark's girl, Betty Jane.
I: How old were you when this happened, about?
S: I don't even know. I could, you know, think back and tell it, but
right now I can't. But they brought her in--we were out there behind
the bushes in the front yard, hoeing yards.
I: were still---
S: Yeah, me and Leonore. And they toted this girl in, you know, and I
*A c / .c*A -7-1 110 ^.c
said well, .And
II II
that girl came back there working, talking, Hey, lola, what'da doing?
It II
I said, hoeing grass, come here and help me. I mean things like that
I assumed--after he came to live with me, I---come a man out there
one night, and he had, I reckon, four big boys- -ookin boys.
He toted them in here. He had on--I'll never forget it, always
when he -----people you know I would take the kids that were
here, the grandchildren would go in that room in there. I cleaned
out the glass in that room there. I said, well I'm going to see what
you--I'm going to see if you, if you walk out there. Whenever they
started out, I kept looking for the man--kept looking for them to
carry him out. And the last man that come out jumped from the top
step down there on the ground and that was the man. He said --
the man over there across the river--but he says, honey, I'm telling
27
/1
you that's the truth, I feel it.
I: Well, can you think of any of the old words, you know, which have
survived among the Lumbee Indians like old English words, mostly
I'm talking about. You know we don't notice them but when people
come in from the outside, they notice them. And sometimes they
remark Iyou know about them. For example, I always think of
jewvimber--nobody knows what a jewvimber is)but a Lumbee Indian.
I' I/
But you wouldn't have to think twice to know what a jewvimber was
would you?
S: Course not. I mean, you know, that's. .
"B{ 1B_...ag.na I've made them.
S: Yeah, that's a everyday thing here in -----------. Let's see
---.-- ; I'll probably think of something when you're gone.
I: But these words still linger on, don't they?
S: Oh, yes.
/I If
I: We say 'nigh" instead of "near"--co5e nigh. It
S: Now, that's what my daddy said, i-r La d I i t And he had
so many words he said.
I: This is very interesting to people when they come in from the outside.
But we're so used to it--we don't notice it ourselves very much. Would
you know what somebody said if he said, yourhat was on "catawhopS7."?
S: Yeah, (laugh) I say that now--boy you've got that hat on catawhopM",
take it off--I do. I really use that word, maybe I shouldn't.
I: If somebody looked at me and said, "boy you're a Tadim, Would you know
what they meant?
S: Yeah, you look kind of weird and you're not hip, as the young people
28
would say. But you're coarse looking. Yeah, I would say that too.
Ain't you a fadim! I tell you I bet when you leave, I can think
of some fadims.
I: And if they call them, if they said now, "put the wood on the piles"--
you would know where to put it, wouldn't you?
S: Of course, on the front porch or the back porch. Highesa (?)-----
highesa.
I: Highest?
S: uh, hum.
I: Hearth?
S: Uh, hum.
I: I don't even know the correct pronunciation for it myself.
S: That is the hearth, h-e-a-r-t-h We call it the "hath".
I: Can you reme bp seeing any Indian women smoking a pipe?
S ----- ----smoked a pipe. O course, I didn't see -----'f
that was my great-grandmother. Granny smoked a pipe--little ole
Granny ---------------granny. Now,
I: Ateen, Ateen do you remember her?
S: No, I, you know, I never allowed to go out until I got grown.
I: I remember Ateen would smoke a pipe and she would--they would be
play pipes. And she would get her a coal of fire, get tongs, something
that you can, you know, use when you are mending the fire, And she
would go a-- a__a fire and light her pipe with that. A lotcf the older
ladies smoked.
S: Granny did that. Big granny h d-ittle .
I: They had to have a certain amount of age on them before you were.
S: Allowed to smoke. Because if you were caught with a cigarette back
29
then you were dubbed as nothing.
I: How about some of our superstitions? I know you don't believe in
old superstitions and so on but, do any of them speak of in your
mind? Have you heard--waht have you heard people say about old
Il
Christmas, for example?
S: About the ------ -
I: Uh, huh.
S: Well, they, uh, that's what they say. They wake up at six o'clock
in the morning and -L- --C#LP---- ^ L -- -^ e^ .
Now my mother said that actually did help us. I didn't ever see it.
I: I never saw it myself but did you ever hear this--you know when
guitar
people talk about a A they used to call it a box. Did you ever
hear that if you wanted to really learn to play a box, you go to
the crossroads at midnight, seven nights)and on the seventh night,
the devil will meet you and teach you how to play.
S: (laugh)
I: Have you heard that?
S: Yeah, and that if you--if you make your crossmark, too, at the steps,
the witches can't come in the house. CTf-5 /f745 J
I: Keep the witches out.
S: It keeps the witches out to make your crossmark, you know, they won't
come under a crossmark.
I: And a horseshoe is supposed to be lucky.
S: Lucky, yeah. And, uh.
I: People have asked me lots of different questions. .for example, people
would ask about toothbrushes, now what did Indians do when they had no
30
II YI
toothbrushes? But they never heard of an Indian toothbrush. Do
you know what I'm talking about?
S: Uh, take white gums and cut a brush, I mean, cut a thing off
that you r -- --4. money, I'm 7. .M
-^----- doif myself. They take a big wad of sluff and
put on that and. (background: that's what the old women used)
Yeah, didn't have to buy toothbrushes--that's why we have to have
so much money now. Have to buy toothbrushes and ...
I: Uh, well everybody doesn't have bathrooms even today but, uh, ak-
me the truth, did you ever get behind the barn and get in a wooden
tub? You have to hide, you knowutll. .
S: (laugh) No, I never did that. (laugh)
I: I remember u know) when I was brought up-I know it was pretty rough.
Go to the river as often as possible for this was more pleasant than.
I: (laugh) You know when you used to go to the river swimming, nobody
wore bathing suits, at least, none of the guys did. I don't think
the girls went in.
S: No, the girls weren't allowed to go with the guys swimming. Because
the guys had to go in the nude and the girls wore fancy slips you know and
an old thin dress and. .
I: Uh, huh. And you might as well had nothing on if you had that because
it only accented .
S: (laugh) That's the truth, that's what I was fixing to say.
I: But I can remember many times, though, of being down at the river and
everybody in his birthday suit and have a watch where somebody kind of
31
hang out behind and somebody yell out, women, women! (laugh) You
could hear the guys falling in the water like frogs off logs you know.
And there we'd stay until the women left or until the women passed if
they were going down the path. And as soon as they were out of sight,
it was all right again.
S: And now you go to the beaches and honest, the children just don't
have on no clothes. I go down and fish sometimes.
I: Notmuch different than a bikini and the way wemight go out there.
S: No and the way the girls had to--you know, girls weren't allowed
too much to go to them. Because it was unladylike to swim and do
stuff like that.
I: I know if you were with a husband or somebody.
S: No, we weren't allowed to go with the boys for anything. Now,
my mother, I'm telling you, she was so strict it was pathetic.
But it was nice.
I: How about your dating rules?
S: Let's not talk about it. You're talking about at home when I
was at home with mama? Well, she was pretty lenient with me
after I was 19 years old. But up until I was 19 years old, I
wasn't allowed to--I wasn't allowed to date)period. I talked
to a bo Sunday evening and uh, he walked with me from the church
where you know ------- -t--church. When we came from
church and we weren't leaving about three o'clock or something.
Now she would sit there and begin to look at that clock. Until
that boy leave.
I: This would be--because at that time some people would call it
at nine but more germal ones would call at ten.
32
S: I've never gotten a date til I was nineteen years old. When I--
you know4-you know--when I went to dating when I ------
I: And it's the parents--if the father yelled out "bedtime" you'd
better be getting out, if you didn't you'd hear some big feet
hitting the floor and then you'd better be getting up.
S: That girl better be in bed in a few minutes.
I: They didn't repeat it.
S: No, no, uh, uh.
I: Said "bedtime"--I don't know whether had time for a last kiss or not.
S: Wonder, reckon how the girls survive now. If..
I: I think it's more lenient now, don't you?
S: It's too lenient; it's too lenient.
I: Do you think you can be--go to the extremes in other directions? Too tight?
S: Yes, you can. You can be too tight or too lenient. I, uh, my mother
was very understanding though, After she says, you're old enough now
to take care of yourself. I've taught you what's right and what's
wrong. I've taught you what will happen to you if you do something
'I
bad. Now if you go out there and get in trouble, it's your fault.
So I was allowed to date and my sister.
I: How long did you date?
S: Hum, about two years.
I: And I don't think either one of you were ever involved with anybody
else.
S: No. I don't know about him--I wasn't. I don't think so.
I: How about the parents. You know, when you were coming along. The
parents didn't believe in more than one boy dating the girl.
33
S: No, I, you--definitely did not have but one boyfriend. If you did,
you got tore up and made to stay home for good. And like--you know
like this boy come along and fussed with this boy a little. Oh,
you were branded a bad girl--you were a bad girl.
I: An aybe A had nothing at all to do with it.
S: No, no. You didn't.
I: Just happened to be free.
S: And maybe he wanted.
I: Nice curves.
S: Yeah .(laugh) The first boy I ever--walked with me from church,uh,
is na me ------ stayed in the house right
across from us. I don't know if you remember that house or not--
it's still there. But when we got along right in front of that
house, ----- sitting on the porch. And I had a great big
belt around the white dress. And that belt dropped all the way
down to the ground. And I got so embarrassed I cried and I never
talked to him again. Now he didn't have anything to do with that
belt falling nor with them laughing at me. But I couldn't stand it.
And he was a nice guy.
I: You were very sensitive.S:I was sixteen years old then. Mama says
II I '1
you had no business on tha-road with him no how.
I: Do you think Indian girls are generally shy?
S: Yeah.
I: Or shyer than other people?
S: Yes, they are.
I: Somehow this is very appealing to me when, uh, you know girls blush and
I
34
ril SeW fi o
this sort of thing. Jow speaking purely from mana point of view.
S: Uh, huh. Well, I think, maybe I'm talking out of turn but I do link
boys respect_.girls more who blush or shy.
I: This could be a front, you know.
S: Oh, how well I know that. Let's not talk about that.
I: lola, we've talked about a lot of things and uh,
(Tape fads out for a few seconds)
I: And, of course, I have really enjoyed this. And I am sure we
are bringing out some things that our readers and our listeners
don't know about and we're trying to be very casual about it and
mention some of the things--some of the personal habits. Do people
generally believe in ghosts or haints or ghosts?
S: Definitely. Let me tell you about the ghost that goes from my
father from one corner of the--out there at the mailboxe-and you've
been to my house, my daddy's house. There's, well you know where
BearSwamp Bridge is, down there close to the church, you know where
St. Anna's Church is. Well, there's a bridge down there and this
guy, they say, goes from bridge to the railroad. Or mostly down
there at Ernest Lowry's old place turned around. Now my daddy
said he had walked with him. He wasn't afraid of him. He said
he had walked with him and a lot of times and when it wasn't a man,
no head, it was a big dogT-trot right on down the road til somebody
come along, disappear.
I: Do think electric lights, when electric lights came to the country
that sort of drove them away?
S: Well, most cf the ghosts were shadows--shadows of trees, because I
heard Woodrow say one night uh, I believe it was dogfilms--you know
how they bloom in the frost--you know, just before frost hits them.
35
And they were staying in the woods--and he said in the storm somebody
dropped in white you know. But now I won't say that they don't some
of them see things. See jack-o-laterns--you ever seen a jack-o-latern?
I: Uh, huh. I've seen lights and couldn't figure out what they were.
And they weren't what we call lightning bugs.
S: Uh, uh. No, 't are different..
I: By the way, listeners and readers who wouldn't know what a lightning
bug is, it's a fire fly.
S: Uh, um. yeah. These are what we call jack-o-laterns. Mama called
themWeather lights. They would go over there to old man Chesnut's
place, you know that big thick building in the swamp. And the
graveyard from the St. Anna graveyard to the Graham graveyard.
I mean -------t -I
I: But otherwise, aeen- a special kind of ghost, isn't it? -etih )Ti
something--a different class of, could you say a different class
could you say, a different class instead of a plain ole' or rkfh
or. .
S: Haint, yeah, a tokeln-now I've heard lots of things I couldn't account
for but I wouldn't dare say--you know, I wouldn't argue with anybody
if that's what they were. But I never could make out what it was.
I remember when I was a girl, uh, Melissa Bame killed James Oxen
John and James killed Melissa. No, James killed Melissa and then Mr.
Buddy& A----killed James. But, uh, now he loved and respected my
father--anyone knew that. And he came there that evening and Miss
Mary had left him and Miss Mary was Melissa's sister. He was over
there at Uncle Joe's. Well, he went after her--he went over to
36
-- -. She didn't come. But he had been to mama's three
times that day and talked to them, you know, about Miss Mary coming
"W 1, "Ese, ,.j
back and about the children -- -------you know. Uh,--------
trouble you would call it now. That night, I don't remember
exactly where mama and daddy was at but they weren't at home, and my
older sister.. We were all in the oldpart of the old house--just
one big room and that's where we stayed. And this noise comes on
the door and knock, you know, sounds like a. to me. Lenore says,
II tl II
"come in--come on in here Floyd--she says quit cutting the fool
out there you'll scare these little younguns. Ahd, uh, come to
the door and knocked again says, "whoooooooo"' just like that. Every-
one of us heard that noise _- a -- -)-and it left.
Mama and Daddy told us that Melissa had--James had killed Melissa
Mr-, GT \eJ k;mlc/ f
and t --------- James.
I: Then a token is supposed to be a forewarning of the death to be,
isn't it?
S: Yeah, yeah
I: Instead of coming, in other words, the spirit of the person about to
die or be killed visits.
S: Somebody they feel near to. They feel near or love the person and
uhWat we call a-------- after they're dead.
I: And this doesn't belong to any particular person, I mean you don't
usually identify it with any particular person, do you?
S: No, I'll tell you, if you dig down deep enough you can find it's
general, you know it's all through the whole time, because somebody,
somewhere, everywhere that believes it.
I: So everybody says that he doesn't believe in ghosts is not necessarily
37
being truthful, is he?
S: NO, I mean a lot of time they do that, because, you know they don't
allow it. They don't want you to think they're crazy or something.
Well, I could care less---I don't care anything -------------(laugh)
I: Iola, you're a delight.
S: Oh, well, I'm me, you're you. I'm supposed to think what I want to
think and do what I want to do if it's all right.
I: Right.
S: And if it don't offend you too much.por bother you, I'm supposed to
do and think like I want to.
I: You couldn't possibly offend me.
S: (laugh) Oh, well, I wouldn't try. I've known you too long. And I
think about you a whole lot and I'm kind of proud of you.
I: Well, you're very kind and I'm really proud of you. And, uh, I think
we're going to be moving along. But I've enjoyed this. I completely
forgot what we were doingien I start talking to you, I forget about
other things and just listen.
S: Well, it's vice versa. Which, you, well, you really .. .
I: You're certainly a delightful person and
S: Thanks a lot.
I: And we appreciate so much your giving us your time. I know how:.busy
you are. Yet you've given us your time. And this will help others
to understand us a little bit better perhaps.
)
S: I hope so. And I hope it will help you too.
I: Well, thank you very much. And we thank you for the Doris Duke Foundation
and I thank you personally. It's been a delight. And I wish we had
38
time to stay longer.
S: Oh, yeah we've been talking the whole tape, didn't we--just talk?
I: We sure did. Uh, huh. Well, thank you very much now and I guess
we're going to have to be moving along because I'm supposed to
meet another engagement.
S: We'll I've enjoyed it and I certainly hope I can help you.
I: Well, you have--you've helped us a lot.
|
RSS
HIDE
