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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 31 A
October 16, 1972
Norma Jackson
interviewed by
tew Barton
Idl-typist
B: Today i' October 16, 1972. I am Lew Barton recording an interview
for the Doris Duke American Indian Oral History Program under the
elstocese of the University of Florida. And tonight I'm in the
home of Mr. and Mrs. David Jackson,..that's J-a-c-k-s-o-n. And with
me is the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Jadkson who has kindly consented
to give us an interview. Would you :.ell us what your name(is?) I
know but I want you to tell.
J: Okay, Norma Jean Jackson.
B: That's N-o-r-m-a .
J: Um huh .
B: J-e-a-n .
J: Yes sir. ..
B: Jackson J-a-c-k-s-o-n. We have to spell these out for the lady
who types them up. You understand?
J: Yes sir.
B: Norma, may I call you Norma?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um, how old are you?
J. Nineteen.
B: And how many of you children are there?
J: Nine.
B: Nine is that um, .how many boys and how many girls?
J: Three boys and six girls.
2
B: Could you give us their names?
J: You want me to start with the oldest?
B: Oh well, either with the oldest or with the youngest it
doesn't matter.
J: I'll start with the oldest, Evelyn Jackson, Irene Jackson .
B: Wait now could you give me her age?
J: Evelyn Evelyn's twenty five, Irene's now twenty two, Norma,
that's me, and I'm nineteen, and David, he's seventeen, Rosemary,
she's fifteen, and Paul is um, fourteen, and Donna is um, twelve
and Wanda is eleven and Porky's eight.
B: And that's nine?
J: Yes sir.
B: Well um, I wanted to talk to you about um, a number of things.
Just about anything you want to talk about. Um, first of all, I'd
like to state that we're in your home and this is near Raeford,
North Carolina, right?
J: Yes sir.
B: R-a-e-f-a-r-d and this is in :.,ke County which adjoins
RobeDson.
J: Yes sir.
B: And this is the county that used to be called Upper Robe&son until
1911, when it was out off to form a separate county. It's the
youngest county in the state, by the way. And um, of course, our
people er the Lumbee Indians spread out from Robe~son
in the Hoke County especially, and they also occupy some of the
other adjoining counties. Norma, I um, want to ask you about school.
The last time we talked you told me you planned you wanted
to go to college and and you graduated last year?
3
J: This time, yes sir.
B: Um, from which school?
J: Hoke County High School.
B: Hoke County High School. And you wanted to go to college?
J: Yes sir.
B: And um, you weren't able to go?
J: I could' I could' went but um, people will not give us a
job around here to work with for Social Workers.
B: Yeah. Is it your ambition to become a Social Worker?
J: Yes sir. A Social Worker or !a nurse. So I'd rather be a Social
Worker to work with people.
B: Um, You love people?
J: Yes sir.
B: And um, 'bout .. about what average do you know what your
class average was in High School?
J: All together?
B: Um huh or did you ever figure it out?
J: About eighty so, altogether.
B: Um huh well did you have any financial difficulties in going
to school or anything like this?
J: In a way, yes, but daddy said if we wanted to go he woild get out
and work to pay our way. But he watn't able to.
B: Yes, ( ). Your father's been ill a long time has he?
J: Yes sir.
B: About how many years has he b een ill?
J: I'll say about fifteen or sixteen.
B: Um huh and um, de-yeo farmtrc I
J: Yes sir.
B: And, how bout your mother? Is um. is her health good or bad?
J: It's bad.
B: Um, these um. little difficult things, now what *as the
second oldest gitl, Irene, is um, she still in college?
J: Yes sir.
B: She did go?
J: Yes sir.
B: How many years did she go?
J: She's been in there four years .this makes her fourth ye :r.
B: Um huh w 11 that's great. I know it's -xpen-rive to go to college,
and um, it's very difficult. to anybody. So um, this is nothing
to be ashamed of because um, um, we all share this problem. And um,
Do you think you'll may be able to start the second semester or maybe
the next year? Do you still hope to go to college?
J: Yes sir. I'm gon' try and find a job and work and wait a year and
then go, where I'll have enough money sqved up so I can get in. .
pay my way, at least the first year.
B: Um huh were you not able to r;et a loan or. .. thru the
government agency or anything like this? A scholarship maybe?
J: No sir, it 's not that, um. .. (//o/lC) Maraus from the college
said that nobody would give him a job for us. So we had to have
jobs before we can get into the college for a social worker.
B: Um huh. ..
J: And they won't give us a job.
B: You have to have now what kind of job is this now?
J: It's any kind of job, going around to people's house and find out
what they need and stuff like that. But um, they have Social Workers
in Raeford and they said they had too many of them.
B: Um, do you know how much thi pays, this job as a social worker?
J: No, but he said that we'd start out with a dollar sixty an hour,
because we're just beginners.
B: Um huh do they they have any Indian social workers in .
in this county?
J: Yes sir, about three.
B: About three. ..
J: Yes sir.
B: Oo you don't think it was because office or anything like this?
J: No sir. I don't think so.
B: Um huh, well that's fine. Um, t:e problem is that um, you do. ..
you do have to have a job. Some kind of job working with people or .
J: Yes sir, working with people.
B: UM huh, to even study I mean to enter college and study
or to get a job?
4: To enter college. See, they train you for social worker. so
they try to find jobs for you to do but, he's been unable to find
any.
B: I see in other words they sort of give you field work to
do in connection with your college training in this field?
J: Yes sir. You go to school about two days out of the week and work
the rest of the week.
B: I see. That's very unfortunate. Um, as much need as there isin
the county, it's sort of surprising um, there wouldn't be .
I know the needs here but you just don't have the jobs, right?
J: Yes sirt that's it.
6
B: Um huh .and this has to be a job that pays .
J: Yes sir.
B: or if you earn money. And this is the only way you can become
a social worker?
J: Yes sit. But then I decided that if I don't if I don't
hurry up and git that money when I'm gon' just go on
and be a nurse.
B: Yeah. .
J: I can still work with people.
B: Well, some.. .. some Lumbee Indian girls are becoming nurses.
My own niece, you know Maxine, um, her last name is um, Blue,
became a nurse last year. She became a registered nurse and she's
working at the Chapel of Eona. Um, we have um, you think we have a
need for nurses. .. a great need for nurses in this county, and in
RobeIson County?
J: Yes sir. I think we do, as many wrecks as we're having.
B: Well, Norma, I wish you good luck and and I hope it works out
for you. Have you thought of trying Robeison County?
J: Well, No sir .
B: Or did yo go across lines and work that way?
J: No it has to be in the own county you're living in.
B: Um huh .
J: That's what they told us.
B: Would work *ith um, Tricounty Community Actions or any um
c Community Action Center Program, would this be valid training?
Would this um, would they accept this um, if yo worked for a while
with um, Tricounty Community Action Incorporated, which includes these
three counties, Robefson and um, does this include Hoke?
7
j: ( Uf... ).
B: I know it's a three county setup, Community Action Program.
J: Yes, we have a Community Action program in Raeford.
B: Um huh .
J: And I don't know where all they go, though.
B: Um huh but you weren't really able to et on that?
J: He didn't really say about that program.
B: Um huh you don't know whether that would be acceptable or not
do you?
J: No sir. I really don't.
B: Um huh .um .
J: But they are gon' help me. He told me .they d call me for an
interview one day this week. from the action program,
B: Um huh .
J: see if he could do something for me to help me.
B: Well, I certainly hope that you you get in the field that you
love and that you want to get into. And I'm sure that there's many
openings that they want people and I'vteard complaints that they
can't get these people to work or enough people of the right kind
to work. But um, this program um, if you started to college with this
in mind and um, followed, you know, courses, sociology courses,
rand this sort of thing, I'm sure it would help you. But um, .
um, if um, you got this work, vhey would would tlere be
some provision made for you to um, for part of your expenses or
all of them to be paid if you got in on this particular program?
J: Yes sir. They .they pay you to come to college and work with
'em.
B: Um huh I see. Well um, I certainly hope things work out for
you. And um, 'bout how much farming farmland doi., your
family tend?
J: I'll say about twenty acres.
B: 'Bout twenty acres.
J: Yes sir.
B: Are you tenant farmers?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um huh um, I'm wondering if um, um, any of the other
children have um, what kind of ambitions they have and so on. Has
Irene decided what she wants to be?
J: She still wants to be a teacher. And David, he's going to the army
after he graduates from school this time.
B: He thinks the Army offers the best opportunity in this particular
case Mybe this isn't fr question 4C Czh
B: -. '
B~
J: I don't really know. He wants to fly jets and stuff like that.
B: Um huh .
J: So he's going to I 4r-7&) N- 1 and then ,..,
B: He seems to be um very um, efient in his studies
and always made good grades and so on. Um, how do you feel about
the school situation? Now, you've gone from you started .
um, when you started school were you going to an all Indian school
when you started?
J: Talking 'bout in High School?
B: Um huh .
J: No, they integrated the first year I started high school.
B: You were in all Indian Schools up until you started high school?
: Yes sir.
B: And what is the name of the school in Zet County that was an
Indian school at that time?
J: Hawk Eye School.
B: Hawk Ymc' um huh that's H-a-w-k- E-y-e. and it was. ..
was that a high school and an elementary school?
J: Yes sir.
B: But they have integrated now and also there isn't any
schools that you mn call an Indian school or a Black school or
a white school, right?
J: Yes sir, there's not any around here I know of.
B: UM huh. .well it seems that integration has been more complete
in EHlt County than RobeBon from my own observation Um, but I
don't have any official figures on that. Um, is your father .
your father is also minister, is he not?
J: Yes. sir.
B: Is he a part-time minister, full-time .?
J: Part time.
B: Um huh .and um, how. 'bout how big is the congregation
in his church?
J: I'll say about fifty .. five people.
So
B: 'Bout fifty five people. AThe church isn't really big enough to
sustain, I suppose, a full-time minister.
Jt No sir, it's not big enough.
B: Um huh .
J: They're under a tent right now. They're building n church.
B: Um huh are there very many Indian churches in i county?
M. re,
10
J: Yes sir there's quite a few.
B: Um huh and by the way, that name Hoke, is spelled H-o-k-e-,
Hoke county. Um, I know one, one minister, one Indian Minister,
&Lodcfq nr
who lives in Hoke County, Revernnd Montana Lade ra. Do you know
him?
J: Yes sir, I do.
B: And um, he ur, he has a church also, doesn't he? I mean does he
pastor a church?
J: Yes sir Le c ,. .. I think it's I can't
remember the name of it.
B: Um huh right here where we're we're transcribing
this interview, Norma, this is a rural area, isn't it?
J: Yes sir.
B: Is there anything that young people can do in the afternoon. Um,
P0 you have anything like dances or movies or recreational facilities
anything?
J: No sir. We used to have one at South-Ser School, that used to be
Hawk Eye. But, they started some shooting and stuw out there so
we just had to stop it from out there Lots of people was gittin'
hurt.
B: Was it an interracial thing was it, um was did all
three races attend out there?
J: Let's say, just about two races.
B: Um huh .
J: But some white5would come. .
B: Um huh .
J: Mostly Negroes Pnd Indians.
B: Um huh it didn't work out so well.
/J: /sir.
J: 1 No sir.
11
B: Um well it's um that's interesting. Um,do you know why, um,
people just didn't get along too well or why?
J: Well, some of the boys that probably was drunk, ad they didn't
know what they were doing.
B: Um huh Could you get Police protection out there, or something
like that for these things, or you don't know nothing about that?
J: Well... well, see we had a police out there one night but um,
somebody said he resigned so, <- hadn't anymore out there.
B: Um huh .
J: And we go to the ball games. just about every friday night,,
B: Is there, um, .are these ball games do you have any. ..
had any trouble out of that?
J: No sir.
B: Are they. do you have policemen on duty there. when you have
a ball game at South Hokb?
J: This is not at South Hoke, it's at Hoke High.
B: Hoke High .
J: We have about eight or seven.
B: And it's well um, chaperoned, if you want to call it that. I mean
there's. you always have somex- there to keep order?
J: Yes sir.
B: Well now, in your experience in going to school. you're a Lumbee I
Indian, right?
J: Yes sir.
B: And um, by the way, did you know your name. your last name is
English. It's an Engli'h name. And Ictually it's a lost colony name,
which is the um, English colony which came over in fifteen eighty
seven (1587). Did you know that?
12
J: No sir.
B: So, Iactually \t-sE definitely one of those lost colony names.
Um how 'bout your relations. I don't like to use that
word. Um. .. um. .. in your your associations with other
students at school.. um, were they pleasant? I mean, was there
conflicts between Indians, Whites and ?
J: In my case, no sire All of us got along together, every race,
when I was going to school. We never had any trouble about this.
B: You haven't had any incidents that you call racial incidents?
J: The only one we had was a Negro boy :ho li "'` killed a White boy.
B: Um huh when was this?
J: Well see, it was in, um, May.
B: Of this year .?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um huh so on the whole, it seems that, um, integration has
taken place, um. in an orderly fashion.
J: Yes sir. The boy wouldn't hit the White boy not lessen' the White
boy would have caused him first.
B: Um huh ... how 'bout the teachers. Um, are they roY' 1'^
6 the teaching staff (COL
I of all three races?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um, huh, and um so it now it seems to be accepted,
would you say?
J; Yes sir. ( think it's accepted.
B: Um huh well this is all interesting. Norma, how 'bout um ..
what do you do for entertainment, I mean at all I mean do
you have you have no dances to go to, you have no movies um,
what do you do, watch TV?
13
J: We can watch TV or give a party.
B: Um huh you know most of the Indian people. many of our
Indian families are a little strict 'n bringing up girls, especially
girls and boys, for that matter. I think this is it 's
fair to say this is characteristic of our people, our Indian People.
Um, don't answer this unless you want to, but um, do you consider
your parents to be a little strict?
J: Yes sir, but I think they have a right.
B: That's fine .um.. there used to be um. .. whenI was coming
along, there was um, a definite bedtime when your boyfriend came up
S. came alone. He could sit up until a certain hour, say nine
o'clock and then parents wo ld call bedtime. ..
'J: utm!?=-O, .
B: And you'd better be in (pronto) too, right?
J: Yeah, but ours is not that short. We get to twelve. .
B: Um huh .
J: to stay up.
B: that's great. 'Course you have great parents and they're
very understanding, I'm sure. Um, did you have another problems
in the school? I mean was there any other problems, (/41/j V
.;Q ^ #.) Did you find the
work difficult? Now you know when you're working with along
with three groups. did you see any difference or could you tell
any difference in the um, .um .level. rid you. .. wo Ild
you have to separate the people in c)iasses according to their
scholastic level or you know?
J: Yes sir, in some cases, but, that was the time that the White
was more educated than we)so, they knew more than we did. So,
14
when we started going to a White School, we learned a lot more than
we had when we were going to an Indian school. Their had more thijga
to work with and we didn't. So we just learned more when we started
going to a White school.
B: Do you think the white schools, when you started going to the
white schools, that they had mor ua,,lies and better supplies,
better buildings and that sort of thing?
J: Yes sir. They really do. They had everything they SrJM-y needed
and we didn't, when we was going to Hawk Eye.
B: Um huh how 'bout teachers. Now you've studied under .. how
many have you stud,'"^ under. three different kinds? Three races
of teachers?
J: Yes sir.
B: So, is there any difference between teachers of the three races
that you know? Um, or do you feel like I'm putting' you on a
spot?
J: No sir. There's no difference between 'em. All of 'em want you
to learn something.
B: Um huh .
J: So they try to make you study.
B: Um huh .
J: And they teach..
B: Do you think one teacher is aSgood as another ?
J: Yes sir. To my opinion they are.
B: Well, that's what we're interested in, your whatever it is. ..
please feel free to express your iwn opinion. Um um. so
you think that um, integration in your case hasibeen a help, hasn't it?
B: Yes sir.
15
B: Um huh if you could change anything in the school system a .Cac
if you had the power to change anything at all, can you think of
anything that you d like to change?
J: ( f7c" A a a r.. ), the only thing I can thiik of is the
busing.
B: Is it um, that you have to travel long distances by bus or that
sort of thing?
J:. Yes sir. But this time they made it a little difeent. B hey
should put all the high school on one bus, and the other grades on
another bus, to my for me.
B: Um huh .
J: So that's what I think they should change.
B: Were there problems on the bus. .. maybe putting all the children
together. sometimes the bigger students pick on the little
ones you think?
J: Yes sir, they do that quite a lotj
B: Um huh and itA& not always possible for the bus driver to
drive and keep order in the bus?
J: No sir, it's not. They can't leave their seats.
B: Um huh .
J: They&just have to turn around and go back to school with the whole
bus load.
B: Um huh maybe they'll get this problem ironed out. 'Bout how far
did you have to .e-to school, Norma?
J: I'll say about. six or seven miles. It was long. from here
to Raeford is 'bout ten miles. Sowe had to walk. ( a )
W had a long route to go so .
B: your (b I e ) is a bus -river?
J: Yes sir.
16
B: Um huh you know how many miles he drives each day?
J: I don't really know. He drives in the morning time, but he don't
in the afternoon because he has football practice.
B: Well, um, you think if you could change anything, it would
be the busing situation.
J: Yes sir.
B: 'bout how about whut time do you have to get up in the
morning to get to school?
J: We'd get up exactly five o'clock every morning.
B And start getting ready for school?
J: Yes sir.
B: 'Bout what time would you laa* for school. You get up at five and
it takes you Uic J .
J: 'Bout something to eight. .. about five to eight.
B: From five to eight to get to school?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um do you have to would you have to meet the bus out on
the road or how far uculd you have to walk to get to the bus?
J: We don't have to. we didn't have to go nowhere but out there
in the backyard, but a loj of other students had to walk about a
mile through the back of the woods to get to the -ja. when it was
raining so they'd just stand out there and get wet and come to school.
B: Go to school wet. .
J: Yes sir.
B: Um huh .there wasn't any kind of shelter or anything like that
along the way?
J: No sir, not a thing.
B: Um huh .so that's something else you might want to change too.
17
you know. 'Cause if you had little shelters like I've seen in some
places you might. those students could at least get under shelter
in Sb whether and do not have to (v/ ,,
F Is it has it been new
experience that the buses when they change um, came about the
same time every mornign, so you would know approximately when to go,
so you didn't have to go too early or too late? Or is there lots of time
in there that you, um, to be sure to be there you had to. is
this iCL& r-1 ^
-^
J: They come about the same time. They might be a little late when
something's wrong with the bus, but they come about the same time
everyday.
B: Um huh can you remember any accidents in the years that
you rode the buses Jid you have any accidents?
J: No sir. We never did have any on our buses.
B: Um huh .was the busses in North Carolina ( J-e rcl ) down
to very low speed. un, they can't really run very fast can they?
J: No sir they can't.
B: 'bout thirty thirty five?
J: Yes sir.
B: Urn huh *. -1IfT1 L 1lUCt4C1.?^ l/'7 b,1 -
Do students usually drive?
J: Yes sir. But( J o ) for the grammar grades they have
S- ladies and men that comes from homes and ( drives bus )
every day and works at the schoolhouse maids and janitors.
B: Um huh .do you think that um,maybe I shouldn't be asking you this,
but I just want to know your opinion. um, do you think of the
18
high school students make a5good driver as anybody else?
J: Tes sir, I really do. Our trips to highschool, first of all we didn t
have very much t-ouble but parents, they come out there on the bus
drivers.
B: I know this state has had a good record in this direction, you know.
Um, as far as driving is concerned and I know that this is something
that is practiced throughout the state, that high school students
are used to drive the buses. And um, most, if not all instances,
in many instances, unless it's change couple of years ago, zi third;
year. Anyway, you're happy to be out of school, aren't you?
J: Yes sir, in a way. ..n a way I wish I was back.
B: You miss' it?
J: Yes sir.
B: Is it a little lonely around home?
J: Yes sir. since I'm the only person here everyday except daddy,
momma and John.
B: Um huh do you get bored?
J: Yes sir. I don't have anything to do 4es watch TV.
B: Do you do any reading?
J: Yes sir, I do quite a lot.
B: Are the families able to get books from the libraries eventhough they
are not in school? Could you borrow books from the Library?
J: Yes sir.
B: How 'bout a book mobile? Do you have a book mobile?
J: I think we have one in. .. in the (town limit ) 4 of Raeford
but not out in t e country.
B: They don t come out here. .
J: No sir.
19
B: Well. certainly this is one way to spend your time, reading
kSl ;/' /J C" /0 -t/ 9 iaIrJ ),' I think. Urn,
do you love to read?
J: Yes sir.
B: What do you consider to be your best field study. .?
J: I guess (.r ).
B: What do you like to do best in ( school )?
J: To my opinion, I like Biology the beEt.
B: Biology .
J: Yes sir, Biology and science.
B: Ur, do the week seem to drag? ( -/ t 0c- ///t Cf: -
y j>- / f t- f obvious question.
Um, you're used touring with people everyday, that it bothers you
not to be with people everyday ....
J: Yes sir, it really do. If I had a job working, it wouldn't be too
difficult, but since I don't have one, it gets bored just sitting
around the house.
B: Um huh may I ask you a personal question?
J: Yes sir.
B: Do you have a boyfriend?
J: No sir.
B: Why?
J: To my opinion, boys are I won't say that boys are not
really special in my book.
B: You just haven't started dating. um regularly
)?
20
J: I've dated a couple of times, but they're just no fun,. 1o my
opinion.
B: Well, um, what would you change about boys, if you could change anything?
J: I'd teach 'em some manners.
B: Well, I guess that's a pretty natural reaction. Um, and um,
when boys come around um, what do you do? Just sit around and talk
9 7fr something?
J: No sir. Sometime ua go out and eat and go to a movie or go swimming
when it's hot enough.
B: Um huh .and um, well, I won't press that question about boys
dnd their manners I think are. I think I understand. Um .
umr. .. let me see. there was something else I wanted to ask you.
Are these questions being too personal. Are you uncomfortable .?
J: No sir?
B: I appreciate yourlto talk with me. These things are interesting
to those that those that are socio-psychological um, things here
they would like to get into. How do you feel about um, about
interracial (fPewe u )?
J: Well, to my .
B: Don't answer if you don't want to.
K: Well, I will. To my opinion, I don't like it!
B: Um huh .well if you had your choice, you would rather a boyfriend
who is Iddian?
J: Yes sir, I'd rather go with my own racd.
B: Um huh .if I'm not asking. please don't call any names.
But, are there do you know people who do interracial ( cC iC )?
J: Yes sir I do.
B: Does it seem to work out, or does. do you think this is a cause
of trouble between the races sometime?
21
J: Sometimes it is I think they're doing okay until they get
married and when they get married they start fighting And then
they break up.
B: Have you known of many interracial marriages?
J: I know quite 9 few.
B: Yeah. .and you think the difference5le um, too great to bridge
in social differences and that sort of thing?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um, if you had to. .if you were on a naticnuide television, and
you wanted to say something to other youngpeople your age, do you
know what do you have any idea of what you would say to them?
J: I'd just tell them to live together.
B: Um, this seems to be um, you aow the young peo le are always
talking about love, um, in a broader sense than I'm talking about now.
J: Yes sir.
/1
B : And you know that many of the young people of today say that what the
world needs most is love, love,love, like the song goes. .. and um,
they. .. they're serious about this and they say that if everybody
loved each other they wouldn't fight wars and they wouldn't be hunting
ezch other um, you know what I'm talking about?
J: Yes sir.
B: Do you go along with ( fic- O let ) people on this?
J: Yes sir, I'd say that's true. If they'd quit fighting against each
other and try to live together, then we wouldn't have sny problems.
B: Um huh this is um, do you think this is just about what Jeogs
taught, #**et two thousand years ago when he said, you know, love
?
your neighbor. .
J: Yes sir.
22
B: Do you think it all narrows back to that.am-.. whih-is the kind
of love that young people your age are really talking about isn't it?
J: Yes sir.
B: But some of us adults, when we get a little older and a little
prejudiced in one thing and another, when our young people start
talking about love, by the way somebody thinks they're talking about
another kind of love. And do you think they're misunderstood and
that some people think they're talking about some other knd of love
when they're not really talking about it at all?
J: Well, yes sir. I think they misunderstood what we're trying to say.
They don't understand what we're trying to say, 'cause, to my opinion,
parents now are old-fashioned, most of them!
Bt Um huh .um.. er. is there they call it the generation
gap. This is the gap between parents and students I mean,
parents and children. And um, do you do you find itidft j. 'et
that you can't bridge or it's very difficult to
bridge?
J: Not really.
B: Um huh well, perhaps your parents, um, you can talk to your
parents. But do-you think this is generally true of all young
people?
I
J: Some parents just won't talk to their children. Most of the time
most of their parents are away from home and they stay weeks at a time
and the/tjust don t ever get to talk to 'em. But in my case daddy
and momma sits down and talks to us. talks about our problems.
B: Um huh and then you're not afraid to ask them about anything
you want to know?
J: No sir.
23
J: They always. ..
B: That's great. .
J: Tell me what I want to know.
B: Um huh that's wonderful. But you don't think this is true
generally among all young people?
J: No sir, I don't.
B: Um, do you think Norma, that the young people has d ne much to
change the thinking of the older people? Do you think we are
learning hou to -'espect and appreciate what our young people have
to say?
J: Well, I think they might be getting ideas by now.
B: Um huh ., I taught high school, by the way, for three years,
and my students were very close to me. Do you think this is
unusual? I mean they came to me with their personal problems
and I you know, I was alwaylglad to listen. And do you
think this is unusual?
J: No sir. Not to my opinion. We have a l.t of that our school. WE'd
find a teacher we liked real well and we'd tell her our problems and
she'd try to solve it for us.
B: Um. do you think parents and stu remember we're still talking
'bout this generation gap, d think this generation gap iaum, is it
becoming wider or is um, 're they getting closer together, our
parents and young people, or say, adults in general and young people
in general. Do you think they're getting closer to ether and
understanding each other better?
J: I t.ink they're understanding each other better.
B:) Um huh do you have any idea J, this is a difficult
question, I have to think about it myself for a while to come
up with some answers and they'll probably be (Df p e,
24
But can you think of anything, right off, that um, each group
can do, um, you know, to come a little closer together and understand
each other better?
J: Egch group. .0
B: Um huh .
J: I don't really know, not lessen they get. .. lessen they pick
certain ones out of each group to go to le .to other groups
and they worked together on some kind of idea or something like that.
B: Um huh .
J: I think that might help.
B: Young people generally, I found in my own experience, to be very
idealistic, you know what I mean?
J: Yes sir.
B: Do you think this is true of the young people generally? They have
high idealsand um, they um, they do disagree with some of the things,
some of the mistakes. .( ) mistakes because adults have made
mistakes and um, some of us are still making them, perhaps. And,
well, do you have any comment on 9hat? Or do you understand Owe,* wt 4,eCC
J: Urn. .well e'4 t.-shf -rezv4 c.t-u
B: I should have been very clear and simple and said that um, do you
think we're bridging this gap better today than we did yesterday?
J: No sir. To my opinion, they're getting farer apart than they used to
be.
B: Um huh ..
J: Grownups just don't, they just don't understand.. Some of them just don't
even care.
B: Do you think some of them just don't want to understand?
25
J: Well, that could be true. Most of them try to anyway.
B: Um huh and um, if um, if the adults came a little bit towards
the young people and the youhg people a little bit towards the
adult, do you think this might help?
J: Yes sir, I think they should meet half way and that should at least
tell the young people they are at least trying to help.
B: Um huh. .Um, do you think young people are afraid to approach
the older people in regard to some question maybe?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um, what would happen if um, you asked an adult, an older person, a
question, um, you know, if it was a question that they thought was. .
that shouldn't be discussed at all. Are there questions like that...
you think?
J: Yes sir, there's questions like that. But in our ho se daddy sits
down and discusses it with us eventhough he don't think we should know,
he at least tries to discuss it with us.
B: Um huh ,. 44 A// W Um, I keep um, injecting my
options and my opinions after all are not relavanb. But um, I want
to encourage you to talk because I want to know hoy you feel. And
um, this is why. And I don't want to lead you. I want you know,
I just want to get your opinion on these things, because I think we
had. we do have .
TAPE 31A SIDE 2
B: This is side 2 of the interview with Miss Norma Jackson. Um, do you
remember what we were talking about when the tape ran out on us? We
let it pass quite a way without realizing it had run out of tape didn't
we?
J: Yes sir.
26
B: I wanted to ask you something about um, dress at school. And rules
at school about dress, and if you had any problems there or if the
young people and the teachers had any problem with dress and long
hair and this sort of thing?
J: Yes, we um, rules at our school) especially about dresses and vP
hair cuts. Girls dresses had to be four inches above their knees and the
boys had to have short haircuts.
B: Um huh .
J: If you don't, they'd get suspended for a week or two weeks until they
get their haircut, and their dresses down.
B:. UUm huh and the boys um, um, suppose you have a boy in school
who feels that he has the right to wear his hair as long as he wants.
Um, you're not likely to have any, but it's likely to just suppose
t/ ( ), what would happen?
J: We have had a couple like that but um, they suspended 'em 'til they
got their haircut, they wouldn't let 'em back in school.
B: You never did have any court cases or anything ike this did you?
J: Yes sir.
B: What happened?
J: The school always won. C tt^ J
B: The school always won?
J: Yes sir;
B: And the judge would say they simply had to do what the school says,
right?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um, I wonder if this judge knew that the United States Supreme Court
upheld the right of young people to wear their hair way they pleased?
Um, what kind of um, um, this sounds ity but maybe I shouldn't say
27
that, but I understand that there was a test case and um, that the United
States Supreme Court ruled that um,the boys could wear their hair,
you know, al long as they weren't in conflict with their parents
at least. If the parents agreed to im, that the boy could wear
his hair long, what do you think would happen?
8: Well, in our school, most parents didn't. They always liked their
boys with short hair.
B: So, the parents and the teachers and the courts stood together.
J: Yes sir, and the Etudents by their self /
B: Well, that's an unbeatable combination, believe mee But ur, of course,
um, as you know, ur, standards are different in different parts of
the country eventhough we have constitutional rights to do something,
it doesn't always follow that um, the school is going to adhere to
that. But nobody had not many people had the money to go the
desire ... .the desire to go to the United States Supreme Court oer
something like this. They usually figure, I suppose, that it would
_to
be better to just/accept the situation as it was. So, the result in
your school was that you didn't have any long hair, did you?
J: No sir. ( t- J
B: So, (it musta)warked pretty well anyway.
J: It did.
B: And um, those dresses did conform to thef. .
J: Yes sir, they came right down. o( atc41 J
B: Um huh. .No, this is all interesting because um, um, you know, the
city standards afe somewhat different from rural standards I guess.
Of course, Hoke High is located in Raeford?
J: Yes sir.
B: About how many people live in Raeford would you say? That's the county
seat isn't it?
28
J: Yes sir.
B: It's not too large a city is it?
J: No sir. I gue. I .I can't guess about how many. I'll
say about fifteen hundred..
B: Um huh .
J:- Somewhere along there.
B: It's um, It's very interesting because um, the Uniped States is
a big countrVand um, there are different customs in different places,
Now this is um, Now we're talking about a fully integrated school,
right?
J: Yes sir.
B: Um huh and um, can I ask you a personal ( )
J: Yes sir.
B: Do you think the young people were right or the teachers?
J: Um. .. was right about what?
B: About um, the way about long hair and so on.
J: Well I think the teachers were right! If they had short hair and
long dresses, they would respect the school and respect the people
that goes out there.
B: Um huh .well tlas um, that's4very interesting thing, anrun,
course people, you know, have different ideas about those things
and we certainly don t want to get in to any controversy over it.
But um, if you had um, if you had your way then those rules would
be strictly inforced?
J: Yes sir.
B: This makes for a better person don't you think?
J: Yes sir, it really helps a person. And they don't fight as much
and they get along better.
B: Um, how 'bout um, on buses, um, you know, riding to and from school,
29
um, were they generally crowded or do you think there were too
many kids on the buses at times and you know, kinda packed in like
sardines? They used to be when I was coming along. This is why
I am asking you about the busing situation today.
J: Well, some of 'cm had longer routes and the longer their routes
the more students thehad to pick up. So, some of the buses were
really crowded.
B: Um huh did some of the students have to stand?
J: Yes sir, some of 'em did.
B: Um huh even on those long rides?
J: Yeah yes sir, especially the ones that got on last.
B: Um huh well, maybe in the future there will be enough buses
that you know, that everybody will be able to get a seat. And um. .
maybe it'll all work out to the best advantage of everybody. Um,
so you, um, um, you would sort of like to go back ever your high
school days. I think most students feel this way after they graduate.
Do you feel this way?
J: Yes sir. You miss all of your friends. You don't get to see 'em
half as much.
B: Um huh but when you get to college you'll make new friends and
you know .
J: Yes sir. But I don't think would be ( I c- ) my high school
friends.
B: Yeah, that's true. Well I want to ur, tell you that I really
appreciate this interview. Ye helped me a lot, because I am an
older person too, and um, I do want to hear what young people have
to say and um. I hope what =ya told hasn't been to pl; me... Pm i.
J: No sir.
B: Well, um, I think you were honest.
I
30
J: Yes sir.
B: And um, I really do appreciate it, Norma. And I hope you have very
good luck in in getting to college and in getting the kind of
training you want. And that you would be able to get in the kind of
occupation you want, you know, you said you'd like to Ot 4iork
with people, do social work and um, I'm hoping and praying t:is
will work out for you. I'm sure if you have faith and this is what
you want to be that .. ha. you'll succeed because um, the
good Lord's on your side.
J: I hope so.
B: Um, thank you so very much. You've um. .. you've helped us a lot.
J: Thank you.
B: And your interview was very, very interesting and very informative.
You are speaking for a lot of young people.
J: Thank you.
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