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> Interview with Harbert Moore by Brenda Brooks, 9/21/72
LUM 27, Side 1
Brooks: ... family history, who you are, your parents, your immediate family also.
Moore: And age and everything?
M: I'm Harbert Moore. Lincoln Moore was my father. Nora Moore was my mother.
t was Born June 6, 1926.
M: N-o-r-a. Nora. And I attended Prospect School. I graduated in 1943. At that
time, we only had the eleventh grade, it was the senior class. I went into
service in 1944. I was discharged in 1946. Ix stationed in Bainbridge,
Maryland and Banana River Naval Air Stationin Florid. Ih in the Navy. And
after I returned home, I started working for a contractor. I"s foreman i of
a right-of-way cre four years. Worked men over most of eastern part of
Rousq mo.6 iioi ker-
North Carolina. And then in 1950 I married the former xEdL Ma Lafr and
I quit working off and on and I startedAfarmg andI farmed up until 1958 and
I went back and I worked one more year construction work. I, I\ foreman of
a crew cutting right-of-way for natural gas line. And then I quitA Aias-
I b c%
we got through that, we came home, went back to farming and also part-time
work at a chain-saw shop or a chain-saw and- lumer. And I quit there in '62
and came home, went to farming on a larger scale. So I farmed up until 1970.
And there were ten projects funded by the National Division of the Methodist
Church for Minority Groups. And the American Indians received two and I'm
working in one of them/present time.
B: Okay, we want to get into more about your Methodist work but what about your
children? How many children do you have and give me their names.
eah I have five five children. I have one daughter
M: I= ~yeah, I have five, five children. I have one daughter, *miQ, 4 PC mi'O kec
LUM 27, Side 1 ---2---
M (cont.): t- 0C I have four boys at Prospect School, one in the
tenth, one in the eighth, one in the fourth, and one in the first grade.
B: Can you give me their names and ages without reading your paper?
M: Oh, I'm sorry. Man, this/ this is something else.
B: Got so many I thought you couldn't remember all of 'em.
M: Barbara, 20, Anthony, 16, Bryan, 13, Steven, 9, and Edwin, 6. So we feel
that they're doing right well in school. Barbara is going to be, she's
majoring in Home Economics. She's a junior at Sees Mek State.
B: And I'd like to talk more before we get inJo your being involved in so many
things, I'd like to know something more about your experience during your
education, your primary years if you can remember anything about the condi-
tions of the school, the faculty, what kind of set-up did you have in the
school that you wra going to?
M: Well the xxkhi schools that,I started to school in the fall 4 1932. We
were going in an oldAtwo-story building. It had five rooms, three on the
bottom and two upstairs. We were using the pot-bellied stove and the long
rectangular-shaped stovethat you used weod in sometimes.
B: I don't ever can't imagine what that looks like.
M: .'hat eight? We had it, it was a, and then we had desks, we had wooden desks,
not similar to the ones that we HEna they use today. But then on up in the
second ay, we had a desk that three people sit together, three people on one
seat so you can imagine about ...
B: Everybody could make a good grade or a a bad grade.
M: Everybody, everybody on the same desk could make the same grade when you were
A right elbow to elbow. So this was in the second and third grade. We were
upstairs in the old wooden building. We had a stairway on the outside and
we had one on the inside of this building.
B: Where was this building located?
LUM 27, Side 1 ---3---
M: This building was located at Prospect/ Prospect Methodist Church owns the
property. Today, it is right below where this building's sitting xekg out
there. A#t that time we'd have to go out, you know, and get in the cold. We'd
have tD rake the snow and ice or ever what might be on it: to get our coal
B: Can you remember your early teachers?
M: Yes, my first teacher that I went to in the first grade was Mrs. Marilee
Goins. She retired last year after teaching thirty-seven years. She was the
first one. I went to Mrs. ae Bulltin the second, Mrs. m eeHkKxEthe
third, Mr. Johnny Bullard in the fourth, Mr. David Lockeg^ Mr., Mr. Johnny
in the third, Mr. David in the fourth,Mr. Clement Bullard in the fifth, Mr.
David Locklehr again in the sixth, Mr. Lathamame in the seventh and then we
went on to high school.
B: And you said that when you graduated, the extent of the education was te
eleventh grade. What kind of preparation did these Hteachers have? How far
had they gone in school?
M: Well,I think some of them at that time had a four-year degree and some of
'em I think had a two-year normal degree. I'm not sure about that but I
think that was about the extent of it, you know. I know some of 'em did not
have a certificates, you know, back then. A lot of 'em didn't have.
B: Well if,lyou started in 1932, waKxit after then takt that they really became
certified by the four-year institution?
M: Right, right, iEywe did have some teachers, you know, like Mrs. M
Bullard, she went back to college a e a years, you know, here a few years
ago before she started back teaching, you know, after she reared her family.
So some of 'em did, were not four-year college material.
B: And is your father the 9xEa same L. W. Moore that I read about who was res-
LUM 27, Side 1 ---4---
B (cont.): ponsible for the educational progress that the Indian people have
M: No, my grandfather was W. L. Moore ...
N: W. L ...
M: L. W. Moore's father, my grandfather. He came from Columbus County back in
about 1880 and he was educated in South Carolina and he came up here selling
ibles walking through the country and he wan on to, up with a girl that he
liked and he married a kHxxmhinxmas Oxrane girl from Burnt Swamp. And then
he moved in the Prospect area somewhere shortly after he was married. A e
bought a farm/ hey Athe x land to the Prospect School. At that
time this land was bought for less than three dollars an acre.
B: Um, contrast with today.
M: Today you probably couldn't buy it for less than a thousand dollars an acre,
maybe more And I understand at thatkim time, he was getting about twenty-
five dollars a month to teach school.
B: And you said he was educated in South Carolina. Do you know the extent of
his education, your grandfather? A i
M: No. I don't. I understood that he had a college degree.A I'm not sure about
that, I'd have to check on that.
B: Well could you share with me any of the maybe traditional S9aHx stories
that you've learned from your father ab6ut your grandfather and his efforts
to get the N now Pembrooke State University going? Can you share with W.-
some of that?
M: Well, no more than, you know, back between 1835 and 1885, the Indian people
in SAtaumea-County had no formal education even though they were tax-payers.
The state did not spend any monies to support education as far as the Indian
people were concerned. So along with my grandfather and some more people
Indian leaders that were concerned, they did get five hundred dollars appro-
LUM 27, Side 1 ---5---
M (cont.): priated for this and I've always been told that my grandfather spent
some of his own money in this plus a year or so of work in trying to get
this school off the ground x and it opened in 1887 which is what Pembrofke
B: And he was the first teacher that institution.
M: Right, he was the first principal to have fifteen students and I imagine
they only had one teacher.
B: Wellm what about your higher education as far as high school, after your pri-
mary then high school, did you go to the same building EI for high school?
M: No, at that time, we had three buildings. ihad the old building and then
the old x two-story building, then we came over to a another wooden building
which had an auditorium in it and we stayed there from the fourth grade
through the seventh grade, then we would go to another four-room wooden
building which we're still using today this four-room highs school building
that I finished high school in where the county moved it over across the
road. we're using it today for the seventh and eighthgrade, khtsProspect
School. So it was HH just a four-room building. j e had a microscope in
this building, you know, two of the lens were dead and the teacher was so
scared that you tear the third one up he wouldn't let you use it. So I
went to -/school tht- didn't they ws s't--ledto use t microscope.
B: Did all f the Indian% communities, ILm speaking of Fairgrove now and Mag-
nolia, did they have similar situations in those areas? I've heard my
mother say she came to Prospect but she was born in Fairmont so I wondered
if they had to come to this area if they got any formal training.
M: Well I understand, I don't knowbut our school started about 1932, our high
school prior to that our students w from Prospect went to Pembropke. You
know, they had the high school at the college then. So I think our high
LUM 27, Side 1 ---6---
M (cont.): school, I know my uncle, Charlie Moore, built a room onto his house in
order to board, room,Ahave a place for a white teacher that was imported here
to teach in high school, Miss Jordan. AFor a long time, they called that Miss
B: And your k children are now attending the school that you attended.
M: Right,,just across the street.
B: Okay now we can get on ak to, this is really your interest,Aeducational pro-
cess, I'm aa aware of that, but let's talk some about your Methodist project
if you want to give us some of the background of that and then exactly what
your title is and what you do.
M: Okay, I'm going to readcihis year, it was funded by the Womens' Division Call
to Prayer and the Self-Denial Offering April, 1970, and the title of the pro-
gram is Indigenous Community Developer Program and the overview of program
goals are:to help certain congregations p K become more deeply involved in
community life; serving as ahactual xa base for real community leadership
such as:engaging in constructive social change through personal and team in-
volvement according to specific need, seeking social justice in communities
throughxinigRxxgempowerment and development, strengthening certain congre-
gations of the United Methodist Church in their respective communities, as-
sisting the United Methodist Church develop stronger indigenous leadership.
Now I understand that the reason this program came in t:k wnd was that the
Methodist Church from a national viewpoint felt that too long the minority
people had been left out and the churchh had xnot really been the church, you
know, that it should be. We should be concerned about the social life of
people and people being deprived or, you know, not having anequal opportunity
because of their race. So as a result of this, they funded ten projects and
this was the first time tkak these particular projects of this nature had
LUM 27, Side 1 ---7---
M (cont.): been funded. Now the3y;ad the Black Community Developer Program but
they'd k never had the Indigenous Community Developer Program. So we were
in Chicago, started Septemberpfirst, 70, for a training session of one week.
And then we came back home andpgot involved in community life. Anything
we're, we're loose as far as giidAiriHs gidi guidelines. We can do any-
thing that will help the Lumbee people or help make our community a better
community/U- LAC) ...
B: Do you agree or do you share the common concept that maybe I can't really
support but I feel takt hatmayb heretofore the Indian people religious
affiliation has seemed to hinder our becoming involved and being concerned
about the whole man, that this has been one type of strategy that has been
sx used within us to keep us from being concerned and becoming a part of our
total community,, Jo you feel this in any way or have youx given any thought?
M: I feel thatwe have been real concerned with, you know, the Indian people
and their religious beliefs. I feel that we've been too conservative. We've
always been kth taught that it was the right thing to love people and we've
tried to do that but then on the other hand we, we haven't stood for some of
the things thatwe should have stood for to help our people. So really I feel
like that this is changing today, you know. Our younger people see things
different and the Methodist Church d sees things different. Along with this
it's been quite a bit of help to me, I served on the Executive Committee
of the North Carolina Conference Commission on Religion and Race during the
year 1971 and I'm servin4on the Commission again this year. And we have
talked quite a bit about racism. We've used the word white racism, Indian
people feel like they do most of the time 'cause of white racism. &85r this
you know, has
has beenAthe thing that controlled us somewhat even our education, politically,
a lot of other things, employment and, is the white racism.
LUM 27, Side 1 ---8---
B: Another thing I wanted to, you about, talking about the work that the
Methodist Church is doing here, the reason that I've felt like maybe the church
had somewhat hindered our being totally involved in the community or the coun-
ty or even the state and I guess I'm thinking back in my mind then from a po-
litical standpoint, is the fact that we have so many denominations and churches
within such a small radius of the county, do you have any concept of how many
denominations are represented among the Indian people?
M: No I don't. I know the Baptist is the largest and we have gsimhw e between
250 and 300 churches in County.
B: In ob4gunweCounty, for how many Indian people approximately?
M: Well, this is the whole county, all races.
B: For the whole county, which is about 89 thousand people.
M: Right, we have about 42, I believe, Baptist congregations alone and we have
about 10 Methodist. I know we must have somewhere between 75 and 100, some-
where in the neighborhood.
B: And do you have any knowledge that any of these other denominations are doing
anything for community developing in the areas like the Methodist ire involved?
M: If they are, I don't know, In fact, I'm the only indigenous community developer
in North Carolina.
B: I wanted to ask you a specific question. I was listening to some of the ob-
jectives of your program. HoIk or what have you been doing Im or trying to do
to develop team-work or to create self-initiative among the Indian people?
is to, to
This seems to be one of our greatest problems, / bring, raise people's standards
and make him want to raise his own standAds. How do you go about creating
your, what you call team-work or individual work, what do you do, try to make
the people do, to help themselves or just how do you go about your work, what
4d you, involvathem from day to day maybe I should say?
LUM 27, Side 1 ---9---
M: Well, let me go back and I'll give you little overview of what we've tried to
do. AWhen I came back from Chicago a in September of '70, I got a little ques-
tionnaire and fixed it up andwent around Ue-the community, you know, asking
people questions, you know, maybe some of their interests, if they were inte-
rested in community involvement and out of this we found that we had a lot of
young men between the age of f and that were interested in doing something.
So we decided to form a local Jaycee Chapter. So then we were chartered ind
October of 1970 and at the time we were chartered, we were the largest group
that had ever been chartered in North Carolina. We had a membership ai,
chartered membership of40 So then we start, we began to work and one of
our projects, we won in 1971 we got the plaque for the award for being the,
doing the most outstanding community project. We went down in South Carolina,
right across the line from North Carolina, where there was a group of Indian
peopleAreal poor and we rebuilt a church. We spent thirteen hundred dollars
of money that our men raised and we spent six hundred man hours.
B: This was the Jaycee group?
M: Right. This church was 25 miles from home but iC, in this church, only people
that they had attending were farm laborers and welfare recipients,.nd win
when we went there you could look up and see the sky or the clouds,ever what
happened to be over the parts of it, you know. And it was so cold in there you'd
you know, your
have to wear an overcoat ,never could take tkhEtopcoat off. So we won the
project of the year in our district and then on a statewide basis, we come
in second place.
B: And Jaycees from this area were also involved in our recent Lumbee Day for,
sponsoring a beauty queen, were they not?
M: Right and something else, you know,Aikd, going a back to the Jaycees, our
group sponsored Wakulla, which is five miles north of Prospect and then they
LUM 27, Side 1 ---10---
M (cont.): sponsored White Hill which is five miles west, south-west of Prospect.
And in iRin 1971, the Indian chapters, you know, they put all their votes
together. They decided that whoever run for president in North Carolina Jay-
ceeAthey would all vote together. And they had to decide in May. They had
enough of votes and they blocked them together, to elect a man.
B: And do you thinklthis is one thing that I've been questioned about you
or wsmeWL-c. t-a
think that it's good to have the many Jaycee groupsxkjat we da have wnaiARit
1 be better to have Wakulla dm and White Hill Jaycee groups consolidate
with Prospect, what do you think about this?
M: I think it's better to have the groups. I think it's better to have each group
in their respective KmmMwHxx community but then I think it's good that all tI6
three groups can come in and work together, you know. I think this gives,
really this was the purpose, we tried to get the boys up in Wakulla to join
in with us but they felt like they would like to have something in their im-
mediate community that they could do to help their community be a better com-
munityA PersonallyI hkkik feel like it's better to ah have the different
groups and then all of 'em _join forces together. I think we m get more
B: I thinkve have several groups in the other areas like Magnolia, Fairgrove
and Pembrook has a large Jaycee group.
M: Right, right.
B: But what is encouraging is to learn that they do pool their efforts and then,
of course, they're more successful.
M: Right. Well this was the, you know, this was one of the ideas behind that.
It was not, it's not a political organization but our idea was that if we
could getja young men scattered all over the county in different groups like
this an in communities and then let them, they have what they call an Inter-
council Meeting each month kak that all the Jaycee chapters come in together
LUM 27, Side 1 ---11---
M (cont.): and they discuss problems in general, you know, like the Lumbee Home-
coming Day, they sponsored this. So really this is good. Now White Hill spon-
sored a new group over about five miles west of them ka, the Wilkerson Jayceesy
So we feel the more young men like this we can get in and they become more
about L. w 4..
awareuH what's really happeningqaxm ai AEgK tiKrCounty that they're g4na.
help bring change about.
B: Have any of these groups been helpful in our registration drive? I know they
don't get political use of it but I know that the Methodists had something to
do with the registration drive Kiafix before the last pi primary and some of
the Jaycees were approached. Was the Prospect Jaycees involved in this or
any to your knowledge?
M: They did some work in this and they've not been too political but n really
they don't discuss political things in their Jaycee meetings. But we're hoping
that this is Higm going to give us some good leadership in the future that
these young men will be able to help lead and guide our people. Now we can
see quite a3, you know, in some of ymr our young men that before they
didn't understand how to get up and conduct meetings and things of this nature
and today they're doing it. And here recently they're, they sponsored four
-ittleleague baseball teams at Prospect between the age of and .' ad- '
little boys in uniform playing baseball during the summer. This was one of
projectsc. Another project that they're putting on is Prospect Rural. Vol-
unteer Fire Department and we're in the process.and We have our charter deeds
for the land, n the process of being fixed up so that'll be something else
we could do.
B: Well this certainly seems to be a unique group of Jaycees. I just wish that
ewy -Jaycee e could take pattern after this because there's so many
things that can be accomplished when you have young men A ttare interested
LUM 27, Side 1 ---12---
B (cont.): in their, concerning their efforts together. But one other thing I
wanted to say concerning the Jaycees before I left it si is that one of your
objectives was to develop individuals so by being provocative and getting the
Jaycees started here in essence achieving your goal because they do train
ycung men like you say, to sa stand up and speak before a group and it
develops the individual as well as thk gxxz teaching them to be aware of com-
M: Right, right and too, you know, something else along with this, I've had sev-
eral opportunities, you know, from different Jaycee Chapters to go and speak
to their groups and Aik the thing that I've been concerned about maybe most
was trying to make these young men aware of some of our conditions in RdO -
&e-.County. I felt like once they become aware of it then they'll be concerned
enough to try and make our county a better place for the Indian people to live.
B: Can you give me some explanation for a group like the Pembrooke Jaycees, for
example. My husband spoke to that group last night and he had a provocative
speech.i kkithng It was very good I thought, but what he was trying to do
is to just a get these boys moving on their own. Here we have a lot of college
graduates, most of 'em are teachers, many of them are in the business world and
most of them have some kind of public office if they aren't teachers but same
AaY- they are unaware of what's going on around them. Can you help me in under-
standing how our environment has produced citizens like this?
M: Hang on just a minute. I think this really that a lot of times,Indian people
in Rulren County and I've found this to be true in observation, that a lot
of us, we were borned in Egypt ,we lived in Egypt,Aas soon as we got out of
Egypt we forgot the people back in Egypt. What I'm saying by that is we have
a lot of people that were borned in poverty and they had a hard time but today
things have changed. They've been able to go to school and akxx kky haxk
LUM 27, Side 1 ---13---
M (cont.): 1,hey have good jobs. They have nice brick homes. They have two cars or
a car and a pick-up and some of these people are in positions where they not
able to get involved due to the political structure of our county for they
realize that the ax# or the hatchet is over them. And then we have other people
that are just not really aware for they geota bed in a good warm home, good
warm house. They get out and they have4food to eat and they don't seem to be
too much concerned about the person that's not this fortunate. And I feel like
a lot of it is sEdA because of not being aware of the situation in the county.
They're, not jFusttied in with this type thing. To me, you know, really, I've
been involved in our community here for quite awhile but just opportunity to
get out and at do this is a daily ooccupation. I've probably learned more
about RIureean County in the last two years than I did in anyten or fifteen
year period before. And it's because I've had time to get around and as a
result of this, I'm more concerned t'lan I was before. I feel completely dif-
ferent kt from what I did even three, fourfive years ago. We have a lot of
people wha that still feel that you're supposed to get on your knees and beg
for the fkix things today that we should$had ten, fifteen years ago and at
one time maybe I felt this way somewhat. But today I don't feel this way.
The way I, that I really feel, that the minority people are going to have to
do things for themselves) TEky xAgoing to be issues) they'ree going to have
to force in order that change comes about.
B: Well this is going to be a slow process. Most likely, you won't live to see
t L.the change that we are now working for and possibly I may not.eut what
kind of positions do most of the Indians hold, those that have, say, a college
education? Do you have any idea what, how many of our axmpK people who have
finished college, what kind of vocations do they go into?
M: WellAit used to be where about the only thing they could do was teach school
LUM 27, Side 1 ---14---
M (cont.): and farm. The man that went through college, he taught school andn dA'y
farm he farmed.ut today, tzey. do have more vocations open. Wd have minis-
ters; we have college graduates in the ministry. But the majority of our
college graduates are still teaching school. By the way, we have two college
gradautes working at Lumbee Bank as tellers.
B: And you are affiliated4the Lumbee Bank in some capacity?
M: Well, try. I'm serving aa one of the Board of DirectorsAthe present time.
-- feel that this is something that's going to give our people more pride and
We e-r-um Le, that we have
dignity. S4m-Se a lot of people, you know, eoar B the Lumbee Bank ni
thought o \
never seen before. We khgath we knew people in and around^ V
but there's Indian people other places coming in because they're proud that
there's anIndian Bank that they can go toAdeposit their monies.
B: I want to get back to our political structure in a little bit but I wanted to
/learn a little bit more about the Lumbee Bank. When was the Lumbee Bank, I
know it was chartered the nineteenth of May last year because that was my
birthday and I was one of the ones who went to get the charter, but when did
we open up the first day for business?
M: I believe it was the twenty-third of January wasn't it, 1971? December.
M: Right, twenty-third of December ...
B: And it's how, well let's see, it's how old then? This is September, nine?
M: It's about nine months old.
B: Nine months old. And have you any idea of how well we've progressed, just
generally, I don't expect you to ...
M: Well, we started off with about $670,000 and today our assets about two and
a half million roughly.
B: And this is,according to the banks, is this pretty ee growth?
LUM 27, Side 1 ---15---
M: Well, we think it is and our president feels that we're doing a real good job
and we have talked with some people from FDIC andfState Banking Commission. And
Tiey feel that our group is doing real well.
B: I heard that you had such a good business if you had any more ymn plkn ikn your
little mobile unit couldn't accommodate it.
M: Right, Ve-4 ae, by the way, we're the first bank that has ever been chartered
as a mobile unit. And we're the only Indian bank in the U.S. and we may be
the only bank that will ever H be chartered in a mobile unit js we don't
know. But we're in the process, we're, of building a building. We're hoping
to be in it sometime the first part of December this year.
B: And the Lumbee Bank is controlled by predominantly Indian Board. You have two
whites, ka4nattorney and the president.
B: And then the stock-holders are what, higher than 90% are Indian. Is that
M: Right, right.
B: So it's truly an Indian bank and we're, we're all equally proud of it. Unless
fM;' No 'aoO'A4
you have something else you want to say about the bank, I'll/go back to our
conversation talking about our teachers going into positions that they're some-
times frombecoming involved. But what about other positions other than teachers?
I know we got our first Indian lawyer to pass the North Carolina Bar recently.
We do have an Indian doctor. We have two Indian pharmacists we one of 'em I'm
really, really fond of since hels my husband, but what about positions in the
county for employment such as our city government, county government and even
state and federal xaxgxHxxmHEk employment in, within the county. Do we have a
fair shake in the employment as far as Indians are x concerned?
M: Well, let's look at the ratio, you know, really of, ior percentage of people.
LUM 27, Side 1 ---16---
M (cont.): Today,according to our 1970 census, we have about 84,000 people in Reaw
lawasn County. We feel that this is was, this shorted us though. We feel that
we have about 90,000. But of this group, we have about 30% are Indian people.
And in Rmli County, let me go back, in North Carolina, we have 152 school
systems. e. County, we haved There's 100 counties in North Caro-
kt-_Ls one hundreth and been able
lina. RaleTreen County is Hraxkafto support education financially and ....
B: One hundreth, i that means it's lowest?
M: It's on the bottom.
B: On the bottom.
M: On the bottom in the state of North Carolina. And so then we have six systems
in Ratamon County. 4W have fiveR city units, chartered city units. We have
one county unit.Up until the fall, September 1970, all the Indian children,
practically, were educated in the county system./ At this time, we have about
15,003students in the county system. We have an excess of mnsaxyL hundred
Indian students. But we did not have an Indian in, a decision, a high decision-
making position. We hkave/"men on the Board of Education. We had whites,
one black and one Indian. And we had never had an Indian on the Board of Ed-
ucation untilthe legislature added two members to ourm member board and made
it a/ member. And since they xr added these two, they've always been elected
since. But one of the things that we feel that has been detrimental to the In-
dianpeople in Renrhlon County is that they've not had an opportunity to steer
their own ship as far as education and a lot of other aspects. For we called
schools that we attended Indian schools ktx wxHxx but we've really never had
any Indian schools. We never had no control of 'em. Only thing we can do is
go there, learn about what was put out\sfzexx us. And we feel that one thing
that was really detrimental to our children was the fact that our schools were
controlled by the political structures of the town and the city units. The city
LUM 27, Side 1 ---17---
M (cont.): units had enough of political power to elect the Ralirean County Board
of Education. And then in turn, they turned around kk and elected their own
Board of Education without the people in the Renerm County School Adminis-
trative Unit participating. But even though we had Indian principals and In-
dian teachers, these people knew how far they could go. (X lot of timesff they
tried to go too far to promote things or really holler a)ut things that were
unfair to the Indian people, this would turn the Superintendent and the poli-
tical powers that were controlling them against them. And they, rn hmx they
knew how far they could go most of the time.
B: And we've actually had teachers who were removed because they would speak up
or try to do something actually for the betterment of the school or to better
educate the children. We've had teachers not return to their original places
or they've just been not given a job at all.
M: Well generally speaking though when a person gets involved and he sees things
are wrong, especially xxmwg a man in high position, and he tries to make a
change, they class him as a troublemaker. And you know, back in 1958, I believe
it was, somewhere h way back in there that Mr. Joseph Samson supported, no, it
was prior to '58, hat kH that he supported a black man from our district as
County Commissioner over a white man. He was a schoolteacher. And after that,
immediately after that, he moved to Ohio. He's been living up there ever since.
B: He was interested but smdRtkt suddenly he was turned off.
M: Yeah, he was turned off. And we have the xsa same thing even happening today.
You know people that used to call me Mr. Moore, they call me Harb and people
.--y-- k< P V),
used to think I's a pretty good boy, thinks daotV something that I'm not.
They think I'm radical and I'm not radical. All I'm concerned about is people
having an equal opportunity.
LUM 27, Side 1 ---18---
B: You were speaking about the ityt -help us elect our seven/man Board. This
is double voting. They vote on their Board for the i city unit and then they
vote on the County Board. Has anything been done as far as approaching our
legislators or anyone on the state level concerning this double voting issue?
M: Well there was a x group of ministers last year, we had one idax Indian minis-
ter and four white ministers and myself, we made a trip up to Raleigh and we
talked ith the twenty-foulcaucus district. We were in District 24 at that
time and we were talking along this line plus we were talking on merger too.
But really, you know, thesepeople see our condition but then they know they're
elected by the popular vote and if they get on our side to really do the thing
that would be right for us this could affect their position, their political
life really. So then, again later, about a month later, we were back up there
and this time there were about a hundred people from County and we
were trying to get the way the Board of Education was elected put on a district
base pf the same as the rmn County Commissioners are today. We have six dis-
tircts and we have seven Cpunty Commissioners. For Lumberton has enough pop-
ulation to gain two commissioners. So we were trying to get our seven-man
Board of Education elected the same way. And the city units were willing to
go along with it but the county unit opposed it. And they said\the chairman's
statement was read by Sam Stell our Associate Superintendent of County Schools.
The statement in there said that it would be utte ridiculous to elect a Board
of Education, Rauo n County Schools, any other way than the way that's elected
B: Why idi did he utterly ridiculous but did he expound any? Why would it be
utterly ridiculous? This is where the students come from who are recipients
of the system in the county.
M: Well, this is, we, we realize really that this is, I don't know but maybe it's
LUM 27, Side 1 ---19---
M (cont.): political powers or that the whites in the county system just don't
want to see the Indian people be in position to decide their destiny. This is
the thingewe feel and we don't want to feel but we know it's wrong. We're
trying to teach it to our yo"tg'people every chance we get that it's wrong,
that people should have an opportunity to decide t own destiny and this
is one of our problems in Rrau=ser County today. We haven't had that oppor-
tunity and we're not going to be given the opportunity. The only way we're
goiif to possibly get it we're going to have to force the issue.
B: And you said that this utterly ridiculous system ...
END SIDE 1
LUM 27, Side 2 ---20---
BEGIN SIDE 2
M: ... so that the Indian people woad stand a better chance then of electing pos-
siK sbly four people to the Raul e-en County Board of Education. And four out
of seven is the majority. So we feel that this would give us a better chance
to help determine what type schools we have. You know, justa coup]AAweeks ago
the city school units went on record as opposing merger and theirjeason was
HM that our buildings in the county system were in such condition that it would
take a lot of money to repair them and then they decided that we had inferior
education. They felt like they would be degrading their schools to come in
along ith ours. We knew, we feel that our children are just as important to
us as theirs is to them.
B: Why are you overtly interested in the educational system? I know you served
as a oard member abfore the community school when we had boards for each school
but what happened or what provoked you to have the in interest in our educa-
tion? I know you've got children but maybe there's something you could tell
me to help me see why maybe oH you were interested in candidacy as a Board
M: Well, onYthing, you know, that really caused this, I've been involved in our
schools and I know that prior to about 1968 or, no ik wa 1970, even though
the Indians composed of over sixty per cent of the students in the county
school system, we didn't have a single Indian high school accredited by the
Southern Association, school, colleges, you know, schools until Pembrofke High
was. It's been maybe three years ago now. But at this time, you know, prior
to that, Mr. and myself, we went down before our Superintendent and we
plead with him to give usafpportunity and we even went as far as to tell him
that if he would give us an opportunity and we failed we wouldn't ask him any
LUM 27, Side 2 ---21---
B: This was Mr. BiaFrd 4ahI who was ...
M: Mr. 4-heA' .
B: ... principal.
M: ... who's principal of Prospect School. This was in about 1963 when Mr. B. F.
Littlefield was Superintendent of i County Schools. And then I
served on the study commission on the merger deal in 1970 and I found out some
more things that caused me to become more concerned about our schools. Now
Oral High School which was smaller than any Indian high school we had in the
county was accredited by the Southern Association in 1959. Littlefield High
School was a new high school they built about six miles east of L/mberton and
it was an all white school at the time they built it. It was accredited by
the Southern Association in 1961. So we realize that if we could get Prospect
accredited that we would get supplies and equipment like we hadn't had before.
This was our main interest, you know, in getting Prospect accredited. as at
this particular time i Pembro/ke High School, their principal did not have
the necessary credentials to get accredited with. So we felt like we would
be the first Indian school but we couldn't get the opportunity. Let me quote
you a few facts, Brenda, why I'm concerned about education. This came from
Division of Research and Planning in Raleigh. This was headed by Dr. Pierce
and he hada lot of educators gathered over from different parts of the state
Kk helping in this. But this is a graph here that came out of the survey that
they made when they were trying to determine whether we should merge or not.
And by the way the people that did this said the only thing thatxxmma could
possibly be fair and be beneficiary to all children in Ranuersn County would
be that we dissolve theksix systems and have one system and have four high
schools, senior high schools, we would kh have somewhere between 1700 and 2000
students in each of these high schools and the only remaining high school we
LUM 27, Side 2 ---22---
M (cont.): would use today is as a senior high would be Lumberton High. So let
me quote you a few figures here. I'm going to only quote the, this is 1968,
and the only figures I'm going to quote are the ones that enter'a four-year
college or university. I'm going to give it to you by districts and then I'm
goin4to give you the percentage of their students and the percentage that went
directlyiA the labor market after graduating afxExhigh school. And before
we get on that, you know in 1964 we had 1278 students in RPtbas County
Schools in the eighth grade. In 1968 when these students finished high school,
of 'em ,/oe_.e1 -.t
we had 667/to go through and graduate which is 52 So somewhere along the
B: Who finished high school.
M: Finished high school.
B: Tki pKxniKxHix F4iy-eit -percent.
M: Now this was 52% of the students that were in the eighth grade in 1964. Now
what I'm going to give you is the percentage of the students that entered,
enrolled in a four-year college or university, we don't know how many of 'em ...
B: The per cent of the 52.
M: Right, right.
B: You had 600 students. So of that 600 students ...
B: ... how many went on to higher education.
M: Right, okay. And I'm going to, we only had 14.21 of the 52% to go on and
enter a four-year college or university, to enroll. So we don't know how many
if HEan mayh finished, maybe, I don't know, maybe half of that 14N. But
this was the County School Unit. The, we sent directly into the
labor market out of high school, when they graduated from high school, 43q /--*./
of our students.
LUM 27, Side 2 ---23---
B: Do you have nviae.a of knowing khax now of this 14 from the district, they,
can you determine how many were Indian or whaty...
B: ... some general?
M: ... I'm not able to tell how many were Indian of this group. But I do know
that over 601 of the population of the -Reulerson County School Unit at that
time were Indian children.
B: 60b '_
M: 60/. So we feel fairly safe in saying that more, the whites hadl higher per-
centage of going on iato college. But let me,xeag Spring School Unit, they
S had were, they had 361 to enter a four-year college.and They had 2Q to go
into the labor market. Maxton School Unit had 42% to enter a four-year col-
lege and they had 22% xkAthe labor iiarket. St. Paul's School had 28% to
enter a four-year college and they had 29% to enter the labor market. Fair-
mont had 24% to enroll in a four-year college, 23% into the labor market.
Lumberton, which is the capital n County, had 32%, 32.9 to enter
four-year college and 15% into the labor market. So what we're really saying
is that our unit was lowest and we id didn't have an opportunity, you know, a
to really in the high positions, to make our schools better. Now today the
people that are presently serving, we have a Superintendent Associate, the
Superintendent is white. The Associate is white. We have two assistants.
The first assistant is Business Manager. And the next assistant is Albert
Hump, which is Indian and he is Coordinator of Title One which is a federal
program. So we feel that we really need somebody up in some of these higher
positions. Now going back to, this was one of my reasons for running for
the Board of Education. And going back to the double voting, there's five
city units and the county unit all vote for the County Board of
LUM 27, Side 2 ---24---
M (cont.): Education. So I'm going to quote some figures here and you'll see why
we're real unhappy about this. Now these are the city votes alone. We were
able to do this due to precinct? and district lines. We were able to pick out
the city, the people that li
from the county school unit by using k a county precinct map and a county map
with Rk the school lines drawn on it. It's kind unique to look that a, you
know, to see that the three white incumbents that's presently serving all re-
ceived in excess of 4000 votes in the city units alone. And neither of these
people received as many as 3000 votes in the county unit. But then the three
Indian people that were running, Harbert Moore, ------and Ai-nJtl-
Holmes, received in the county unit alone in excess of 3500 votes. So what
I'm saying there is that the people that live in the county unit would have
been electingheir Board of Education, we'd all been in office. So let me
quote you one4right quick. The, Mr. McCormack which is the Chairman of our
Board present, received 4779 votes in the city units alone. Moore received
2260. Aid by the way, Ii the lowest vote-getter in of anyin the city units.
McCormack received 2860 out of the county unit which he is chairman of; and
Moore received 3675.
B: Um-hum. And you received around 2000, you said, in the city.
B: Compared to where he got his. So he got his greater vote in the city.
M: He beat me by 2519 votes in the city alone.
B: So if the city didn't vote on our Board of Education, we'd have three going in
this time instead of.MissAileen Holmes going in alone.
M: Right, right.
B: What accounts for her success possibly? Do you have any projection arou
I mean, how did she do in the county? Maybe if you have figures on that you
LUM 27, Side 2 ---25---
B (cont.): could, I just wondered, what kind of support did she get.
M: Well she did, she did well in the county. Mrs. Holmes received, she received
3100 and some votes, oh, they have it right here. She received 3161 votes in
the city unit.
B: In the city.
M: Now we feel fataybe there could be a possibility, this is a possibility,
that her name might have fooled some people. This is a white name. And so,
but Moore, I have been involved with our school affairs more than she had and
we feel that maybe this had some ...
B: Well if ...
M: ....i / _
B: ... if it happens to us, like we voted for certain candidates because they
had the name Hunt and this is a real Indian name andAanother one whogot good
support among the Indians was a Brooks and this possibly could be the answer.
But I just wondered what could have made the difference there. Now as far as
other areas of the political stqIcture, like I wanted you to tell me something
about the appointed positionsxal or something, whohKwmKs this or maybe the,
just expound a little bit on another area, for example, the County Commissioners.
MaH2MEahad a little success there recently and your idea that if we voted on
the school like we did the Commissioners, we very well may have had yourself
as axaxx member because ixyour district, we do.have a County Commissioner who
is serving his second term?
B: Mr. Herman Dial who is the first Indian County Commissioner?
M: Second. Tracyq- Vrof served two terms which was eight years before Herman
B: But he is from the same district.
LUM 27, Side 2 ---26---
M: Right, right.
B: He's from the same district as Mr. Dial, Herman Dial and this is the district
gone on the Board
from which Hm you come and possibly could have4or would have according to the
votes had the city not been allowed to vote on you. What about our new Com-
missioner over in the Red Springs district, do you want to talk to me a little
bit about him, Bobby Dean -Bhde y?
M: Well, we feel really that this was something five, even two, three, four, five
years ago, we didn't think it could be done but Bobby Dean was a successful
in defeating probably the, the strongest white candidate people felt like was
in Reon County ere he served on the Board of Commissioners for a lcQg)
time. He was Chairman for quite awhile. W But we seen a little revolution
in our, the political structure of our County Commissioners here in the last
three4 four, five years. And as a result of that, the Indian people have
been able to reap some benefits from this, you know. Just recently we had a
man that was put into the tax office, Tax Supervisor, and he was the first In-
dian that had ever been employed in the county courthouse as head of a de-
partment in Lumberton. So we feel that this has helped open the door. But
too, we also feel that because of moves like this some of the whites were
defeated in their ....
B: Their candidacy. Like the Chairman, the old Chairman of the Board of Commi-
M: Board of Commissioners.
B: ... was defeated.
M: And we feel that it was moves like shee that helped defeat him. For there was
whites in the county that said, you know, that, they said, friend, being a
friend to these people and we feel, I think he feels himself somewhat that
this had something to do with it. For we have discussed these, you know.
LUM 27, Side 2 ---27---
B: Can you look at the way that James Jacobs, the new Tax Supervisor, was elected
by the County Commissioners and see what the Indian influence did in that?
The Commissioners th voted yes for James Jacobs, the districts that they
come from, are they not heavily Indian populated?
M: Right, right, right.
B: Wellington comes from the St. Paul's district and he was one of the ones who
voted for James Jacobs. Herman Dial of course, the Indian on the Board. And
what about Howard Cooper, the one who was defeated?
M: Well Howard ...
B: He had to break the tie.
M: ... bward and SamNNe4- out of Lumberton, the Indians don't have as much to do
withE electing them as they did Doug Wellington out of St. Paul's. Now rids
they were the determining factor in Doug's race as to whether he went into
office or not. But Howard and Sam, they, the Indian people would not be, I
don't think, but then on the other hand, this is kindly of a political kimng
maneuvering, you know, like politicians do, and these people had been working
together and Sam Nobel told me himself he said that Pete Jacobs was doing an
excellent job. He was a good man, he was smart and he was doing an excellent
job in the Tax Department and he felt that that was ctkof the best moves that
they had ever made. They integrated the court-house and also they were getting
a first-class job. So we, we contend that all the Indian people need is an
opportunity to prove themselves and see what they can do.
B: And I think b Qause our educational system si is in such a K very bad condition
is the reason why we don't have the self-initiative to go and seek out these
positions and prove that we are a mnaxiH qualified people if we are just
given the chance to show our potential.
LUM 27, Side 2 ---28---
M: Well a lot of times we have the self-initiative but the dooes closed on us
before we get in there, you know. If you're going in out of the rain, you
first have to get he door open and this has been one of the problems in Rett-
lees.n County. The door has been closed before we could get in and really
B: Well in the last ten years, maybe a little longer, since the integration move-
ment came about and agencies have almost been forced to hire different races,
in our county because of the harrassiment and the negative attitude kthEy ka
that they had been confronted with before integration, do you think this ac-
counts for Indians not applying for jobs now that maybe some of the doors are
open? I've often had officials say thadthey would hire Indians but the Indians
don't apply. How can you and I rebuttal a situation like this?
M: Well Ka let me rebuttal it like this, you know, a lot of times our people
feel maybe, you know, that there's, well the door's closed ;and maybe it's
really not closed but too often when you go to apply for a jobs, even like in
stores or places like this, they tell you that they want qualified people and
they want people with experience. So when they say people with experience,
this cuts us out right there for we have never been in position to get exper-
ience,9 Just like today, you know, we, our Social Service Director of ue
eer County Social Service resigned. Well I don't think we have an Indian per-
son that could fill that position. We have ...
B: How long had she been thFngh ? That's one of the questions I wanted to bring
up about Mrs. aR.eee.
M: I don't remember. I know it's been ...
B: It was in the, in the paper recently.
M: ... it's close to, between fifteen and twenty years. But the reason that we
don't have anybody. They are supposed to have so much experience along this
LUM 27, Side 2 --29--
M (cont.): line and we don't have anybody tha as the experience. We do have a
people that has enoughjeducation but they don't have the experience. And this
applies to the ha black people also.
B: What about employees that work in that office maybe that have, could have
trained for this? Do we have Indian people who work under Mrs. Vitu who may-
be might have it a little difficult but could move up in her position? What
about the ....
M: Not at this time. Now you see, I don't know how many we have but in 1971, in
April of '71, we only had4Indian person working axmid an in, in a professional
job in social service. For at that time we had 60 people employed in social
service, we had five Indians, we had one Indian in the topJ positions and
we hadl Indians in the top& positions, the low, the a lowest positions.
So really this person is still a social worker. I don't remember whether
it's one or two but they would never. You see the state sets standards that
a director has to meet and I was in the Deputy-Director's office of Social
Service in April of 1971 in Raleigh and we were trying to find out some
things about Tu n County social service. And he told Harold Woods and
myself that the mna Merit State Test was oriented for the middle-class
whites and our minorities had a problem with it. This includes the Indian
and the black, you know, red. So this is one of the problems, they have to,
you know, they have to pass this state test and this is one reason that we're
really concerned about k education for first, they have to be educated. And
we do have a lot of people that could pass this test but they're not concerned, f
because they feel that the work would be so hard on them and httthe way
wouldn't be open for them to make the progress oraxiranxa that they should
but they're not interested in it really.\Ehe could pass it.
B: So what, how do the figures compare with the Indian employees at the Social
LUM 27, Side 2 ---30---
B (cont.): Services compareawith the Indian recipients of the services there? What
kind of percentage or do you have any idea?
M: Well, the only, I have all of it H but I don't have it with me.
B: Just generally, can you?
M: I can give you one good one. In 19, in February of 1971, you know, I said
we had people employed there, we had five Indians, onin the top -pitions
and four in the lowest( positions and iB at that particular time we had 4300
Indian people receiving food stamps. We had 4900 black, 1200 white and we
didn't have a single nona-white working Food Stamp Department. Now
today, I x don't know how it is.
B: Well, I've often been confronted with the fact that if we have girls or In-
dians who come and apply and they're qualified they, they could easily get
the job. But you know, I feel like that everything we've had to get, we've
had to go to the white man to get it. His clothes until recent years, most
of the grocery stores, gasoline, insurance,axndeverything we had to do, we
had to confront a white man and now though we are getting Indian men in these
official capacities, it's gettinE little easier for us but we can't easily
forget that we didn't want to go confront him if we didn't have to. So if
we can teach school and have a fairly comfortable living, xknffnx most often
we've been complacent to accept that rather than to, to ahxa have to take
some negative response or even stick our nefC out or jeapordize our posi-
tion a little bit in order to help all of 'em as a total Indian family. We
maybe a little bit selfish in this respect, maybe not our own fault. I like
to think that it's because we aren't really aware that our brother is in such
desperate conditions sometimes.
M: Well I think that's it. I think we're not aware and too, people like to kind
be secure, youhkow, from an economical standpoint. We like to be secure to
LUM 27, Side 2 ---31---
M (cont.): take care of our families and we're aware, too, that if we get involved
too much in trying to upset the structure of RmilOun County and fail to do
it, then we could not be SamHxn so secure if we're depending on employment
where the political structures have anything to do with it, you know.
B: Do you feel as hopefu4as I do that change is taking place?And we all have to
face it, it's political, whatever realm of our life we might want to study.
But I think the Indian people are becoming aware and I'm real happy to say
because we've had so many public officials resign for, if for no other evidence,
like in the board of elections, because Indians are beginning to register and
hopefully will exert more and more of this ki&n power. We had a, the Executive
Secretary who had been in that position for thirteen or %/years and suddenly
she resigned. 7T the woman who worked under her resigned and various posi-
tions in the county, people are, for some reason trying to get out of because
we, maybe we are beginning to threaten the bureaucratic system in our county
a little bit because we're becoming involved. Do you feel positive about this
kind of change?
M: Well I feel this way about power to any group of people, whether it's a minor-
ity group for political power or poor group for self-determination, power is
not gven. Nobody gives power. If you, if ya he's going to give it to you, he
can also take it away. So the only way ayou really get power is by forcing
the issue or really xp plsi pushing and, you know, getting it for yourself.
For people just don't go around giving people power.
B: Right. Another thing I think that I'm pleased about is that we seem to have
a great pride of our Indianness in the last few years and hopefully this is
having some kind of unifying effect because, like you say, nobody is going to
give us power. And until we let our power be felt, we're not going to progress.
And I have no knowledge of any national candidate ever coming, especially a
LUM 27, Side 2 ---32---
B (cont.): presidential candidate ever coming and recognizing the gH group of In-
dians in Raleo n County until this last year. And more and more candidates
are becoming aware that even though it's just 10680 registered Indians in this
county, that sometimesAxKa be the turning point for an election. And we're
getting a iikl little more attention now from a political standpoint Do
you share this idea?
M: Well, what we're trying to do, Brenda, we're trying, you know, and my interest
along this line is this, thatre have our, we see things diffmxt different, you
know. We do our own thinking and we see things different as Indian people.
But then we don't separate, you know, we're still able to unite our strength
together for one common cause and that is the cause ka to help all people, you
know, help make R8 reen County a better county. And I feels I travel around
in the county today takk that this is true a lot more today than it was maybe
even five years ago or ten years ago. People are beginning to realize, you know,
that if they get things, they're going to have to really get out and work for
it. We're going to have to work for these things just like we work to get
paid on Saturday, you know. If you sit in the house all day Monday, Tuesday
and on through Friday, the man don't pay you. So we're beginning to realize
that if we get things along the political line or things for self-determination,
we're going to have to get out and work for them just like we do our pay-
check. And this is a way of life, you know, for me. 2?his is some of the thing
that I'm doing every chance I get. And I'm telling our young and old and mid-
dle-age, you know, that we're going to have to do these things for ourself
with nothing against no int"rvrnetn, we just feel that we should be treated
as other people are treated. ,his is all we want.
B: Well this ispevident, that the young people are thinking down this line be-
cause last night I was iaAa meeting and a young man, possibly about my age,
LUM 27, Side 2 ---33---
B (cont.): about thirty years old, spoke of an offer a candidate had made, to give
him $1,000 and he could've taken the $1,000 and have worked among his people
for this candidate, but he wpHS kHE xpxEKxKA would, he had, he expressed the
attitude that he would have been selling himself and his people down if he
had put this in his pocket and not worked for the better government for all
the people. So it was really impressive to see such honesty because I know
that's a lot of money for a 8m of mnn young man thirty years old who really
wouldn't have a whole lot to lose if Eh he didn't xa have a family and he's
in school but I knew he could use this money. But I was real pleased to hear
a thiry-year-old Indian man say that he didn't want pay-offs from the poli-
ticians. He wanted to get something that he wouldn't be owing or he wouldn't
be paid off.Now he could still ask the services of that politician after he
got in office. Where if he's paid hif when he gets in there, he doesn't
owe him anything. But he owes us his service once he gets in there.
M: Well this Ixa is probably one of the reasons we're in the condition we're in
today,1 And We have been sold at various times and this is the thing that we're
khapitngto get our people away from. And really we feel that they're away
from it today. We may still have a few people that would do things of that
nature but basically I feel the i average Indian person in Raulreea County
today, his vote is not up for sale. I feel thahe is going to vote for the
individual that le feels will help his people most and I'm real proud of this.
I'm glad I feel this way. And we're trying to teach and talk or anything else
we can do along this line, you know, to get people to thinking this way more.
But one thing we're going to have to do is get a higher percentage of our
Indian people to the polls.
B: We've got ten thousand registered and if we can, over the nation, I know it
was low last time, but if we could get more than 50X to vote, wE midH which
LUM 27, Side 2 ---34---
B (cont.): has been much the history of our past, then we definitely could let
our power be felt.
B: Well, is there any other area?
M: I believe that'll do it. When, when I get this other, then I can give you some
whoee facts, you know,-
B: Well I look forward to talking to you more when you get your studying, your
graphs more precisely together and mainly in your mind. And I've really en-
joyed talking with you and I hope that we can talk again. And I have been
interviewing Mr. Harbert Moore at Prospect Methodist Church about three miles
from Pembrofke and tday is September 21. And I hope to be sending more tapes
M: By the way, let me throw this in, we have the largest Indian church in the
B: This is a member of the church of which Mr. Simeon Cumminglis Pastor. I think
we have forwarded a tape of Mr. Cummings already. So Mr. Moore is a very active
not only in the county but in the church. He has an extremely good church-
going record. He has missed two Sundays in how many years?
M: IAJ.Cc-r a
B: Nineteen years. But I think there's more to him than just being a good church-
goer. I thank the Lord for him and I wish we had more Indians that would
stand up and be counted by his side.
END OF TAPE