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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LUM 23A
SEPTEMBER 7, 1972
MR. HAROLD DEESE
interviewed by
LEW BARTON
TAPE. 19
Side 1
IDL typist
8: This is Tape 19, Side 1. Today is September 7, 1972. I am in my
home. I'm Lew Barton. I'm in my home in Pembroke, North Carolina
and I'm interviewing Mr. harold Deese, who was kind enough to come
over for an interview. This is the Doris Duke Foundation Oral History
Program under the elstocese of the University of Florida. Mr. Deese,
we certainly appreciate you coming over today and um, we'd like to
ask your name and your age and your position maybe I'm asking
too many questions at one time.
D: That's okay. It's my pleasure, Mr. Barton. I'm Harold Deese .
Bi D-e-e-s-e ?
D: Ur huh thirty years old, born April 10, 1942. My Parents
are Neil Deese and Willie Mae Jacobs Deese. Both are Lumbee Indians,
both are sharecroppers. Um. .. IVS started to elementary school
prospect school, 194. ur, 8 (1948). And I graduatedlhigh school
at Pembroke High School, after transferring there in the ninth
grade because we had moved from a share crop farm to the communist-
type communal farm R ReU Banks Mutual Association. Where there were
fifteen families living at the time. Al nobody owned anything
um, so fr as farming equipment or land or crops other than small
patches of vegetables and things they grow around the house.
Everything was owned on a communal type basis and it was operated
mearto HAed. ha&-
in um, a association-type form with4each family.holding a membership
on the farm and sharing in the um, net proceeds after the farm crops
2
were gathered and sold. Um, I graduated from 1embroke State University,
Pembroke State College then in 1963. I'm married to the former
Aggie Ann Goins ..
B: Would you spell these?
D: A-g-g-i-e Ann Goins, G-o-i-n-s. Um, she's also a graduate of Prospect
High School and Pembroke State College. Um, since that time I've
been employed in various teaching capacities around, primarily in
Indian Schools. I have taught in-Aon-Indian Schools for brief
periods. 1970, I received a scholarship to attend Harvard University
where I did my masters in Education. My wife has also just completed
her masters, this July at A & T University in Greensboro. I'm
presently employed by Lumbee Regional Development Association in
Pembroke, as the project director for the Adult Education program.
The Adult Education -rogram is a program designed to see what kind
of educational data can be gathered and um, Indian Adult Education
programs to try to come up with a better method of dealing with Indian
Adult um, Remedial Eduation.
B: Um huh .
D: And um. presently we have 'bout eighteen staff members working
in six communities of hhe Robefson County Area. We have approximately
a hundred and um, fifty Lumbee adults enrolled raging from age 16
up to about seventy three. And -e reading academic level of zero
up to about grade eight as maximum.
B: Um huh .
D: Our program is not designed to prepare people for post-secondary
educational endeavors. It's primarily design: d to supply skills
for everyday living, such as consumer education, the rudaments of um,
writing and 'rithmatic. We have students in the program that have
never attended school before. We have at least two students who
3
had never gone to a single day school in their life. And I would
say, the average grade level, right now of our students ranges
somewhere between 2.5 and 3.5. I don t have the exact figures ..
at the present.
B: Is this funded by O.E.O.?
D: his is funded by the Office of Education, the Adult Vocational and
Technical Branch of the Office of Education. This this
program is funded directly for the um, sQoe purpose of working with
the Indian population. It is it's an experimental program
S) to once before. And um, we're hoping that some of
the things that we re doing right now can have a at least,
a national significance if not in the general adult education field,
at least in the um Indian Adult Education field. Some of the things
that we're right now, experimenting with in the program is the use
of ) workers in ur, the Adult Education Lrograms, whereas
normally in this area, the Adult Education 1Pgramnjust simply by
using some of the um, mass media to contact people and by way of
mouth and the students go into the classes where the um, teachers
are school teachers employed in the um, primarily in the county system,
the county school system or the city school system. They are
professional teachers. There is basically no attempt to follow
up on the students and if they miss classes, to find out why they're
absent and to um, try to provide motivational efforts to get them back
in the.school. Our program employs a full-time ot..idge-worker
in each community. That we have classes which is with, with six
classes and these people, the 'anz.t ge workers, work with these
students. They provide some o* aUilng services for. and um,
we provide a lot of referral services. We feel that um, the persons
hungry, and the first thing we're got to do is get that person food,
4
then we could talk about education later and we do find a
number of families in the community that are lacking um,
proper food. Not only quality but quantity as well. We've gone in
Uyle-r
the homes where there woono heating, during the part of the .
the coldest part of the winter there ius no heating facilities or
the fuel was out. We've gone into homes where there were no food
for the family, there were no clothes for the family, almost anykind
of condition that you co. ld conceive of, these outridge workers
have come in contact with. And this is one experimental phase,
CUr-+rcA 12
the ouSpatge worker. he other experimental h'bise is. .. phase of the
program is dealing with can Indian people operate an educational .
Adult educational program. CFn they in many cases not have
any experience, in other words can they come up with ideas and
intimate these ideas, that will meet the local educational needs
without very much consideration of what the national-neens are.
This program is designed to strike at the local peoples needs.
And um .
B: Are you finding that um, poverty and illiteracy It- i" together?
D: It seems that the tro are hand in hand for the major part. Now we
have people who in our program, we have um, I'd, say two people
out of the the um, whole classes that, at this time, that
are making what will be compared.. considered um, um, a
fairly decent income. '7e have one family that um, the head of
the household is illiterate. He has just learned to write his name
in our program and his annual income would be somewhere in the
neighborhood of fifteen thousand dollars. This is the highest
that we have., and um, for the most part we're finding that the people
that are in our program, well the um, average income for program
is approximately twenty seven hundred dollars per household.
5
B: Um huh. .. so this is the exception of the rule?
D: This is the exception. And when you take under consideration the average
of twenty seven hundred dollars and this one fellow making twenty. .
no fifteen thousand dollars, this means that there is several
people in there that have an income of below a thousand dollars per
year in the family. There's a large number of our students that
are receiving public ser. um, public assistance through the form
of food stamps, welfare or other things like this.
B: I think maybe we better backtrack a little bit. I wanted to ask
you a little more about your parents, Are they still living?
D: Yes, both parents are living. My father is self-employed. He's o
he works in the woods as a timber cutter, primarily in the pulp-wood
business. My mother is a factory worker. Both of my parents wore, um,
according to the, probably the national definition of illiteracy, both
are moderate illiterate. My father finished the, completed 'bout the
second grade of school, somewhere between the fist and second grade.
My mother completed the seventh grade and um, she had to drop out
6f school to make a living. 7er father passed away so she had to
become part of the work force at that time. My father had the same
situation when about five or six years old he was by the time
he was ten years old, he was doing the same work ad a man. So, he
didn't have time to go to school because he was busy earning a living,
not assisting in earning a living. He was earning a living for the
family by he was a plowman, he had .
B: How old are they)Mr. Deese?
D: Fifty two. My father's fifty one and my mother s fifty two years old.
B: Um huh I hated to interrupt there, but um, how 'bout your .
how many brothers and sisters. did we mention that?
D: No we didn't mention it. I'm the only child in the family. There was
6
a sister. She passed away when I wa3 seven years old. She was six.
B: Oh I see.
D: So, I'm the only child in the family.
B: Well, I've had the nrivilage and um, honor of visiting your program,
and talking to a number os students in the program over there. And um,
I was very surprised that they would, they showed such enthusiasm.
And they all seemed to be learning and happy that their were learning
and um, this was really an inspiring visit for me. As you know, I
I know it's a worthwhile program. One other um, what other
things do um, does the organization, the Lumbee Regibnal Development
Associated .or Association, which is it?
D: Association.
B: Association. Um, what else, what other types of programs do they
operate?
D: Um,. .. the short. LRDA, short for the Lumbee Regional Development
Association, has several Drograms right now operation. One .
another program is the Neighborhood Youth Corp, which has something
over a hundred kids involved. They have an in-schood phase and an
out-of-school Neighborhood Youth Corp phase, which the out-of-school
is for people that has nut completed high school and for some reason
or another have dropped out. They provide work for a number of
these people and hopefully in the work process, they learn good
work habits, and um, the things that are expected of an employee
and an employer so that they can go out into regular job market and
secure um, well paying jobs, or at lest a job that pays enough for thcm to
survive. The in school program is designed for kids who come from
homes where there is a low, a poverty level income. This provides
them with a eight hours of work per weeljhile they're in school
7
they work afternoons they um, so that these kids could
have money. .spending money. .. as well as money to buy clothes and um,
eat in the cafeteria and these kind of things.
B: Right. .
D: Another phase of the program, um, right now, which is probably .
which is the largest program that's operated .here is the Economic
Development part of the program which is presently, they have several
components, I probably will missone of them, and one of 'em is dealing with the
business aspect of the community, helping to to provide information
about loans that are available for businesses to the Indian people here
in the community so that thev could go into um, or secure funds to go into
private businesses themselves, individual and um, group proprietorships. Um,
this um, this program has also attempted to form or has formed a um,
Businessman's Association to get together the present businessmen and hopefully
provide um, information and assistance work. technical assistance ot at
least information technical assistance can be um, gotten to these businees-
men, and also give them of a voice, um, provide some kind of an association that
they can become a member of to vice social activities in the like .
B: Um huh .
D: Also getting' new ideas for their business, how to become more efficient
businessmen. Another phase of it deals with the cooperstives. Um, this
phase, right now, is taken to deal to the realm of establishing. primarily,
right now, their main objective is establishing agricultural-related coops.
Probably in the future we'll move into the area of artisarn-type coops and
as well as agricultural and hopefully other types of businesses.
B: Um at present,, do you know how many people LRDA employed?
D: There's um over forty people presently employed in LRDA. The
8
Adult Education program has the largest number of employees. Fully
staffed, we will employ twenty people, which we have approximately
one-half the um, the number of people employed in the organization.
B: And is the interest continuing such as I encountered when I went over
there that night?
D: In that Adult Education class?
B: Yes.
D: DefinitelyThe interest is high and I can attribute part of this
interest to, the fact that-i )in as far as possible, out employees
are local people. They come out of the communities that they served.
So, especially in the case of the outridge workers we attempt to make
this this person, as far as possible, a part choose him from
one of some of the communities. Um, our teachers um, another
experimental pahse of our program, we're presently using five pair
of professionals teachers. These people have less than a college
degree. Some of them all except let's see there's four
that have have gone no further than high school, one has done some
advance work above the high school but it wasn't the general education
field. And only one of our six teachers right now is a college graduate
and a professional teacher.
B: Are you attempting to um, do anything about dropouts? Are you
encouraging um, ym, are you trying to provide something for the dropout
and um, trying to prevent dropouts. ... high school dropouts?
D: Well, a recent survey, not so recent, in 1963 I think, in Robefson County,
indicated that, it wasn't a survey, it was actually a study of the
people in the Adult Education Program that existed then, the information
from that research piece, indicated that if a parent just attended
Adult Education Program, our program, whether he stayed in it IVt-
the --- -------------of a high school or a elementary diploma or hot
9
if he just attended for a couple of session or more, that his child
had a fifty percent or less um, possibility of dropping out of school.
And um, in our i:ro rami, we also provide, well we feel that this is a
plus, but we do provide referral services to another phase of LRDA
which is a talent search program. And this is their prime responsibility,
working with the um, students that are in school to try to come up with
um, potential educational facilities that will accept these students.
often times these are students that cannot, for some reason, academics
not necessarily because of intelligence level, but because of low
achievement, cannot get into the um, larger Universities because of
high academic admission standards. And this Talent Search Program
is working with these schools and gathering information providing
the students irtthe Indian High Schools with the informations to where
they can go to school and where they receive financial assistance if
they are not able to go to school. They also have 0 These
counselors work half a day in the school and half a day in the
community. Counseling students that have dropped out attempting to get them
to come back to the school. If they are not interested in coming back
into the um, high school program, secondary program, to go on to some
training or technical school to. so they can um, further their
education thaj way. Another component that I didn't mention in the um,
Economic Development part of the program is the community aids. Now
these aids are, I guess to a great degree, social workers in that
they. we make referral to them for um, various needs that we
seem to amet in to such as emergency food, clothing um, shelter and
these community aids under the Economiq Development Program, do
attempt to find or to bring together some source of where these
immediate needs can be met, Whereas the other phases oV'the Economic
10
Development Adult Education and the Neighborhood Youth Corp dealing
(o,r V
with ( ) F things, these Community Aids are dealing with
moreso, the immediate needs of the people that are in poverty.
B: Do you get any do you get good cooperation from the um,
from the um, established agencies such as um, social services?
D: Initially there was somewhat of a reluctance to work with us. We
were a new organization, we didn't have a track record as such and
we had to develop a working relationship. Right now, we have
established a working relationship with the major portions of the um,
established institutions, such as social services and a good example
of this is the fact that we 've been able in our Adult Education
Program to provide um, glasses for the people that need them. I
don't think we've had a case turned down yet that really was need
and the income was in, in um, the proper level.
B: Um huh .
D: We um, have been able to provide something like, thirty, over thirty
pairs of glasses for our students to our initial year.
B: Um huh well that's fine.
D: This gives some indication that um, we have been able to establish a
credible relationship with these people.
B: Um huh I hear that um, um, that Mrs. resigned
and um, I don't know why. She's been there for a lbng time.
D: Right.
B: Um, she was not only an official working with LRDA, but she was V?/tn0 1A.
(/ V' I') citizen too and um, the Lumbee Indian and um,
as such, we certainly have the right tfxpress out opinion on all
these things.
D: Right.
B: I think, um, perhaps the trouble has really been in the past. That we
11
haven't expressed ourselves freely enough.
B: Um huh .
B: Um, I'm wondering if um, you've had since you are acquainted
with low income families and so forth, if you have any ideas as to
urm, um, social services to do by way of improvement or anything
along those lines. I don't want to put you on a spot .
D: No .
B: to say now, who do you favor. If it's a feel of position, if
you want to say that, then it's alright. But um .
D: Yes well, I guess I should have prefaced everything I said
with the statement, that I'm speaking in any s capacity as um,
an employee of any organization but as a private citizen and the
whole conversation should have been prefaced with that. So,..
B: Well I think that's wha understood.
D: Right.
B: I understood it anyway.
D: Okay. We've got it now on the transcript.
B: Right .good .
D: I think, from my observation and the observations that we have had,
in from the field workers that have had contacts with the social
services department, er, it seems to be two over-riding factors that um,
bother us a great deal. One of 'em is seemingly insensitivity through
the pride of the poor people. The case workers do not seem to understand
that um, poor people has to be dealt with as poor people, but first
of all they have to be dealt with as human beings. That um, have needs,
they have feelings, they have desires just as much and just as great
as anybody in the world has. And um, I think this is one thing if
I had to make one complaint abou social services, it would be that from
all the reactions that I have had from the people, there seems to be
12
an insensitivity to the plight of the poor people. And they seem
WA SScI (ASS !/
to be treated in somewhat, in a-vrnst', as a veemae versus, um, a
human being and um, and I this would be my prime complaint.
Another complaint would be which is probably we probably
stand from this insensitivity, is the fact that it seems that often
times the laws of the social service laws are interpretted
not for the benefit of the poor people, but for the benefit *eD the
established institution which seems to be the story that so often
comes truelthat that organizations perpetuate organizations.
And if they are 0 services in consequential to self-perpetuation.
B: Um huh do you think we .possibly have people um, who's maim
purpose in becoming um, an employee of the social services is to
warpnate it to warp the program to restrain it rather than
a love for people and the desire to actually help people.
D: Certainly speaking from the observations and um, reports that I've
received, there seems to be this kind of a thing happening, I can't
speak from a standpoint of authority because I haven"' experienced it
myself but it seems that when you ride by the road down there and
you see fifty or sixty elderly people standing outside the road, that
can t go inside the building for shelter, maybe it's sleet or snowing
or raining and they still have to stand out and wait for food stamps.
Often times they get there at six o'clock in the morning and have to
i,
stay until later in the afternoon and then are told, ,;oll we can't
see you today,vo've had our .. fi@-Hyou'll have to come back
tomorrow and try it again". .i'nd sometimes they go as many as three
times or more before they can even be seen. This sounds to me like th
there's some kind of insensitivity. Certai nly the observations
will tend to to um, well, I, observations would tend
to point, they're the people are not necessarily sensitive to
13
the need 6f the people. They're serving their own interest rather.
B: Well, there has been some um, I don't know rather you'd call
it protest or demonstration or what, but there has been some
complaints recently, haven't there?
D: Right. There was some complaints recently. Um, there has been
several cases that has recently been protested. .he decisions
that the Social Services had reached in the cases were protested and
um, um, all the information has not been received yet. I know one
case was not it was a negative decision on the protest and
actually all that we accomplished was the right to protest and
fec- A inalienable rights. But I think since the protest
there has been more sensitivity at least more consideration given to
the people down there and that have gone down there. And I think
they have been better received and have been accorded a better
treatment, a more humane treatment.
B: That's great. .. I think we do have to complain in any area rhenn
it ja functioning ^..- ) and um, certainly this is um,
um, a very sensitive field and a field in which um, unfortunately,
um, we are involved, the Lumbee Indian are involved to a great extent,
simply because um, um, the Lumbee Indians and the Blacks of the county
are at tfe bottom of the stack, so to speak, financially .
D: Right .
B: (-VI#0 A considered ..
D: Right um, the Indian people, it seems, are paying a price because
of their traditional, I'll say because their traditional love for the
land. The Indian people of this area hnsve hben following us for centuries.
And bince the recent training in the county has been to large industrial-
type agricultural operations, farm management systems, supervised by
the large industrial giants in this area such as the banking institutions,
14
And so forth. Um, the Indian people preferred to remain on the farm
and in many cases, 4r had to suffer. Due 6o this, the farms have
dS 1F larger, and if you didn't have the money to buy it, um, very
expensive equipment to go in the farming operation, you either
took a sharecropping or daycropping um, type of operation which in
most ins1ancrc-, does not produce any sizeable income over a year. We
still have people working ten and twelve hours a day for five dollars
and salaries like this for gathering tobacco and puli' cotton and
especially in the communities that are somewhat isolated in the county.
B: The minimum income laws don't always get enforced in this county,
do they?
D: Right um, they're not always enforced, probably for many reasons.
Urn, one of the reasons is probably because the people are not informed
and another reason is that if you are informed and you protest, you
lose your five dollars a day or six dollars or seven dollars or eq"
wat you're making on the farm, which is seasonal to start with. And
leaving you with t an income for several moAths of the year. Now,
where do you go from there?. If you want to wvl: for a living V-
)
V(f~SS SC-/'. -to cial rvices for a living, or
either wise take the minimum that this farm owner pays or you cqn just
go without and actually you can go hungry.
B: And plus would you say, the love of the land, the love of the homeland,
our pno:!.l, would you say, are reluctant to leave even to better
opportunities?
D: I personally am reluctant to leave and I have no plan whatsoever to
leave. I t ink I'll stay here and rough it out. It doesn't make any
difference how rough it gets and I think that um, I speak for the
majority of the Indian people in the area. There's something they
love their homeland. "aybe it's because that when we leave the community,
15
there we don't necessarily find Lumbees that we can identify
with. p personal feeling is if we go into another area
and there's another Indian, this Indian has not, perhaps .or
perhaps doesn't have the same background that we have and he's
probably just as much a stranger to us as as the white eorple
in the other area that we would move to. So, consequently, unless
-^
we moveto an area that has where there's a sizable population
of Lumbee Indians, we're somewhat isolated and have to take the main-
stream of American life and forget where we come from or at least um,
assume a role of living in that community under its standards or we
stay at home. Most of our people, I feZl, are choosing to stay at
home and accept whatever they can find here and try to make it better
for an few some people um, that come behind 'em.
B: Um huh .. .well um, a similation has been thought of as the solution
to oUr problem by some people. How do you think our people feel
about this generally?
D: Generally, I feel assimilation is, is um, somewhat equatable to
anialization in .in the minds of the people. And as-;imilation
in the majority of the people's mind, is looked upon as a fate,
probably worse than death itself. I personally am against assimilation.
I'm in I'm I'm highly in favor of competition. I believe
that we hear- the intellectual capacity to compete wit he society at
large, and I think we can live in our communities and make it a better
place to live to provide opportunities for the um, the people
that follow us, which takes a eonserted effort, which takes a group
of people that are willing to sacrifice um, their social positions,
that are willing to sacrifice their economic ..niti r.s to um, attempt
to make it a better place to live. And really you can r:et in this modern
day America, there is such a thing as economic repraisal.
16
B: Right. And um, this is especially true in this county.
D: Very, very much true. Especially in your professional levels. If
you don't get the um, the mode the local society has established
for you, if you're a professional such as a teacher, which is um our
main professional area, then if you don't fit in that mode they um,
seemingly will um, make it difficult for you to get jobs or make it
difficult for you to um, um, enjoy your work.where you're living or
where you're working at.
B: What usually happens to a person who complains um, about injustices,
however justified those complaints may be?
D: Basically he's ostracized from the um, I guess you call 'em the old
O 1', Cos ',C from the people that um traditionally operated
the um or spoke for the Indians. Um, there's no room in .
in the past um, system of operation which is still operating quite
efficiently, presently for dissent...um, if it's dissent for better,
for the Indian peoples If you complain because you don't have supplies
in your classrooms, many times you're considered a troublemaker. If
you complain out in um, publicly about how the Indian people are treated,
you're considered um, an idiot um a fool by the um, the educated um,
elite in the community. Often times this is, it's not necessarily all
the time. But it my impression, my personal opinion, is that this
is the basic truth. It if you do stand up and complain and if
you say that I have a right to he an Indian, to live the life of an
Indian without being penalized for it, without having to come up to the
standards that are established by the establishment, whether it be white,
black, or red, and you are penalized socially and economically.
B: Um huh .
D: So actually there's no room for you unless you want to be a hermit.
17
B: You know I've I've I've heard an expression by um, a high
official that's at PSU now, something he said years ago and I wish .
perhaps you'd remembered it, and I won't call his name. But he said
it's possible to be dead, while yet you live in this county.
D: Well, I I agree.
B: So um .
D: You can be dead so far as as achieving your personal um, oitimum
um, level of um, existence. Um, because even in our schools my experience
has been that um, if you question decisions that were made by the people
in Authority, maybe this is not just unique to our area, but um, that if
you're inquisitive, if you don't accept the everyday ( ) and if you
want to know why o if you want to kn9w why we: don't have supplies, why
thil answer is correct. If you ask questions tMOMS you're considered
a trouble-maket. Consequently here you go to that social ostracism and
um. .
B: r Professional ostracism?
D: Professional ostracism as well, if you go into the school system and
go to complaining, you'll you can be professionally ostracized
and um, um, now you'll kind of stand out like a sore thumb if you don't
just follow the. the leadership o& the people that are in authority.
Um, I've had this experience a couple of times, especially in um, 19...un,
69(1969 un, when the um, Indian school were being fully integrated
at that time. This particular school that I was working at was Prospect.
Um, I dids$ excellent I considered it an excellent administration
one of a few people that I would say that about, in the county, is an
administratIW Mr. Denford S. Um, we went to a meeting with the
county superintendent to discus the plight of the Indian teachers. Would
he give us assurance that all Indigan teachers would be placed in the county
as a result..tone paced as a result of integration and there
as a result. ones v,-ore placed as a result of integration and there
18
were a couple of the guys in there, I, myself being one of them that ..
that questioned this. That we wanted some kind of assurance that all
teachers would be placed and these kind of things. Just assurance that we
would be treated equally.
B:
Um huh .
'D: And um, there were a lot of people and Indian teachers in there that
I,
said, you know, what kind of fools are those. Look at them just
making a fool of themself .. because we asked questions. And I think
this is true all the way from first grade through um, high school and even Qf
through college.
; kl.^I; 4i c Affce e
B: Do you think the Caucasian group um those who are --4-------
A=sE and so on, have um, um, seized the integration thing and
turned it to their advantage turned it to a disadvantage of Indians and
Blacks. in the county?
D: I think um, personally the thing has been a disadvantage for the Indian kids
from my observations. Um, and actually working in the schools that have been
integrated and um, that were predominately well, they were White
before and had an influx of Indians and Blacks. And um my observations
was my personal observation again, that these Indian kids were not
treated equally. They were not accorded the un, general services that um,
were available in the school bS as far as possible, they were put into the E,
lower um, educational classeS .4he classes that were not headed to college
but was headed to just a high school diploma and hopefully to a factory or
back to the farm where he would not cause any problems. And um, I've heard other
other kids talk about the treatment their were accorded. I've heard profes-
sionals in the schools system talk about the fact that um, the Indian Kids
seem to have been put into the lower classes not and not accorded equal
treatment. And um, the. basically it seems that the only Indian Kids,from my
19
experience and observation and from talking with other people that have
really been able to go in the school system and and un, rake a Go
of it, has been the ones that can make it anywhere regardless of what
ace they were. They were exceptional people.
B: Um huh Do you think ur, being obedient to the master um could
account for the success of some of our teachers un, do you think
they have to do that. urn, in order to stay in the school system? Do
you think there are certain things they have to follow which, indirectly
or directly are dictated by the power structure?
D: eHll, ur, let's bring it hp to what's happening right new. This year the
teachers in the county were faced with the um, the um, permanent ur, faced
with the evaluation. the ..5r the first time in North Carolina
lIteachers a permanent status. They would eitherwise urn, at the end
of this year be rated as um, professional or nonprofessional teachers, which
I'm not sure what the term is. you it's professional teachers
I
and what s the other term. nonprofessional?
B Un. I somehting like this. I'm not sure wither.
D: I'm not sure. anyhow you take a teacher that .
B: Do you think this is a dangerous tool in the hands of$Ahite power structure?
D: Dangerous in the hahds of the establishment. I'd like to refer to .
not to the establishment. not as a white power structure, but as a
conglomerate of um, Indians, Whites and Blacks that have achieved power
and $a . content to have thispower and they're not ready to
share it with other people, which makes them an watablishment versus the
um, I in my mind. versus the white power structure.. Maybe they're
synonomous, I'm not I'm not sure. I have some reservations 10 /Pkcf
B: We have we have a few have so few peopleS s* you
know .
20
D: Right...
B: this is why we refer to it this way.
D: Right this is basically true. If you want to get to the absolute
truth, I think we have the Indians and the White in the power structure.
So, I use the term establishment. It can be dangerous especially if you
are a teacher that is concerned with injustices, and concerned with %E6-
quality education, regardless to what race the kids are. And if. if
you speak out on the injustices likeewhy the school starts and it takds
a week for the kids to get enrolled. to get their classes straightened
out. something that sho .d have been done during the summer, f you
speak out on these things, you know, you're a trouble maker, if you
11 I
speak out on urn, why urn, my class does t have iark./) facilities, if
you speak out on or questions why um, do I have to follow this order when
it's against all the rules of of. .um, proper educational .
proper educational& process. You know, you become a troublemaker. So,
this year it can become a tool, and I hope this is the last year it can
it can become a tool ur, to be used against us this type of indivi-
dual that does not satisfy with the vuadeamAand um .
B: Do you thinkAcould even extend to the area of voting and registering and
practicing our rights as citizens.
D: Definitely, whennyou come into a county that hM& a thirjt democraticc voter
registration to ur, one republican ur, ratio, urn, you can get into problems.
Um, personally being a republican, I'vebeen in BSS60 that I was the only
republican and many times I've been in this situation. "nd un, in the
-tkreA-h
end they kind of tolerated us because there was noJheate from me no
political threat and many time ,um, there's been many instances that I've
talked to other people where there were reprisal or tentative rep3isals
because of the voting process or urn, the people were told theyjhad to
stay home today because this was voting day. Well I've got to get this
21
crop in today. You don't have time to vote, it's not important
and this type of thing. .., and the importance of voting and the rights
of citizenship bfe somewhat yeen played down. And this is Bgi. .
e -fectli VC P
tAtA eAf&fs C-( l/^y the establishment to maintain their power.
B: Um hh ..
D: Because there's no threat as long as you're not voting.
B: Well, do you think we have a unique school systems in this county and that
we have six administrators
D: A very. a very unique and inefficient system of operation.
B: Would yoq say expensive .?
D: Very expensive.
B: And do you think this was something that was designed over the years
in order to avoid any real integration or ur, any real equality of
races and this sort of thing?
D: Looking at a surface .. if you take a surface look at the situation,
it would seem evident because if you're not a part of the establishment,
then you don't have time to prepare. You only react o:;ce a situation
follows through. And a very good example was the way way the
school boundaries were drawn when the government said you had to establish
boundaries and um, brigg the things into your schoel,sys into federal
gS. The only thing that the Indian People could do at that:time was
react. Because the lines were already drawn and everything pretty well
I
solved when the major portion of the citizens became aware of it. So
what could we do but react which um.. a reaction to an action that has
already happened is nothing like preparation for a situation that's impending.
B: But they didn't console us and they didn't. .
D: I. .
B: give us a chance to express ourselves did they?
D: That's right. It's about like being in
22
D: That's right. It's ab.ut like being in in the batters box in
a baseball game when this pitcher is pitching a no hitter and you're
batting anlr m ..
SIDE 2
B: This is side 2 of Tape 19, continuing the interview with Mr. Deese.
Ur, I'm sorry that we were interrupted because it was getting good along
that time when the tape run out. I wonder if you can recall. *
D: Well, we were talking about the quite separate but equal um, school
system that was supposedly, that did exist in the county and the impli-
cations of the this type system. Um I tend to fehl that there
were a lot of pros and a lot of cons in this type of school system. The
i t It
pro was that we could operate our own schools to a certain degree. Un,
we could have some independence in the. in ur, our school system,
II ,t
but the the con was probably that even then, our school system
absolutely
was controlled by the system, by the board of education. Um, the people
that were on the board of education usually the system-oriented type
people and consequently you'd get system-oriented un, teachers in the
classroom and you'd just be producing ur, year agter year, the same type
of person, the person that accents the yoke of the system and doesn't
rebel. nd you get a few-- Ceople 6n the process, but, you know,
if you're one in a hundred or one in two hundred, the masses have a way
of taking care of ur, quote, "problem people," unquote.
B: Um huh well, somebody has to ur, somebody has to stand up and
complain when things begin to be intolerable. Unfortunately some people
are doing this today and umv. can you see any change in that attitude
you just described takinalace within the last year or so?
23
D: I think .
B: Well in the last few years?
D: My observation has tended to be urn, tended to lead me to think that the
teachers, the people that are concerned, especially in the school system,
are finding it so difficult even now and. .. and as they reve into the
integrated school systems, if they speak out, if they stand up, the pres-
sure is so great, um, that rather than to continue under alsmst unbearable
circumstances, they opt out atfind. *:aa a i n other places. I I,
you know there's countless other people thatyou can call.., efr names ,,)
haw done this. But, if you stay in the system, you either wise. you
learn to sublimate your true feelings and. and go along and do as .
actually. um um. become part of the system or you know, you
just get out. That's the two options that you have.
B: I am for this kind of thihg. Urn, I've been very vocal about it and I
haven't been shot yet. Ur, I haven't had a dob yet either. Um, so I do
know that um,. um, these things do operate and they operate very effec-
tively. Ur, but ur, I think our people are standing up more and more.
,I //
I was very encouraged by a iFemendous victory in the case of Old Main(,
D: Yeah ...
B: Um, and I believe you were pretty outspoken too on this particular issue
and very instrumental in helping with it.
D:i; I guess whqt I did then was confirm what a lot of people had said. That
I was a'troublemaker.
B: But, I'm afraid,. I'm afraid I'm guilty of the offense too. Um .
D: BUt I. I stand today in my personal esteem, I feel ua, a better
person. I feel I'm a better person. I feel that um. I'm able to
li(e with myself somewhat better because of the standdb>I've taken. I'm
not a brave person by any means when it comes to violence, but I feel that
24
a person any person to really be um, a person that that can
take pride in himself, he has to have ideas that are worth fighting
for. And these ideas, somewhere in his mind, have gotta come when they're
to a point when they're not only worth fighting for and being ostracized
and being unemployed and being pushed from place to place for and they're
also worth dying for and um, I, at that time, had reached close to that
stage when un, I told my wife this was one decision that I'd made and I
hoped it didn't cause any family problems but I had reached & point in my
life where I had found something that I believed in. And I believed in
it to a point that if I had to fight for it to defend it, I'd defend it
and if I died, although I did not want to,that's the last thing I wanted
to do,but um, I'd reached a point where I had to sublimate the aspirations
that I had in lifd to a point of defending it up to the death, as long as
somebody else was there with me. Now. I'd be there regardless of what
it took. If it took havin' to lead the county after it was over or havin'
to dig ditches for a living, this is what I'd made up my mind to do.
Fortunately it didn't come to that.
B: I'm sure it wau.fthis kind of dedication that won this impossible battle
and un, that this is one case where the Indians did win. .. where the
Indians actually defeated the state capital, id a sense. They certainly
defeated the governors office.
D: Right. .
B: Um, but ur, we had sympathy and help and guidance, all that sort ot thing
from all over the United States and out people were appalled. It was a
great cause. People were apalled gnd anybody would even dare to tear
down this building, um urn, whish was the first: which housed
the first. )- college for Indians in the United States.
And urn, I'll tell you ua, this has encouraged me a lot. I've been
25
a lot of battles. Ur, but in this one I saw more dedication among out
people than in any other. And it was so inspiring, I felt the same
way you do ur, and did. Ur, I'm very thankful to our people that they
stuck it out .. .
D: Right. .
B: and this was a long,hard, drawn out ur, knock down, dragout fight.
I mean un, we were up against Oity Hall and there's no doubt about that!
D: Um huh .
B: And ur, it took dedication it took everything that. urn, it took
this town's dedication to win it, but this is one time we beat hell out
of Oity Hall. You'll excuse the expression and I'm very proud of it.
D: That was one of the proudest days in my life,kI've ever lived and we had,
and especially the first day that we went out on the street to demonstrate.
Swas only eight of us but I think all eight people came back out of
that better human beings as well as better men. They had a I think
the people that participated in that the hard core people that you
could count on bothe hands being less than a dozen. !he real hard core
people that stuch their nose out in the '. =1: jiland were
willing to gamble with un, th-eir careers, their futures and their friends,
quote, friends, unquote, and all these other things that a person has
to delude to make life somewhat ur, bearable, you know, in these kind
of places. I think I talked to a lot of people after that and un,
all the people that I've talked to, which was all that was in that
original demonstration, said that they would never be the same people,
That they would be much better human beings, as a result of their par-
ticipation in that, they took a stand and became people, human beings
exorcising tA right to protest, in using a lSwful manner.
B: Rikht and a right to exist actually. ..
26
D: Yes, actually, a ri2ht to exist and a right to have a part of the
historical past to rule. What else do we have. we have Old Maint
building now, and that is the only, I guess, the only visible structure
that we have of of our past.
BI The only tangible thing that we have.
D: Right Right.
B: And um, um,it was 6o inspiring though that *his renewed my faith in
America and Americans because we had support fvom virtually all the other
American Indian groups throughout the country, we had um, we had support
from people at the major Universities and colleges and un. un, this
is the sort of thing that just isn't done.
D: Um hih. ..
B: You don't tear down an old building that's so meaningful to the people
without even consulting the people. This is. but they were L-e IBrmze-
enough to try it.
D: But I think the thing that had made the building particularly important
to me was I walkedthrough those hall down there when I couldn't go to
any other school primarily unless because they wouldn't have me, being an
Indian. It's the onlynoppurtunity that I had to get out of the factory,
or even to get out of the cotton-patch=f r'd tobacco patch, to get
a decent chance to to um, be successful in life, to. it was
the only opportunity I had at the time to go to school actually. Because
my parents couldn't afford to send me anywhere else. And ur, for prac-
tical purposes i*.ae very few schools I could have gotten into at that
time, in fifty 1959 when I started. And I look at my parents, they
never had the appurtunity to go to school, they. .. had to work to make
a livi g when they were ten and twelve years old, get out and do the same
thibg that a grown person had to do at that time. And um, to me, that
building was the symbol of a chance. Of a chance that none of my people
27
urn, had had before. And I'm the first person who ever graduated from
high school in my entire family on my mother's side of the family and
I'm the third person to graduate from high school from my father's
side of the family and um, the second one to graduate from college
and the only one, thus far to to make it through graduate school.
And ur, to me it had a truly significant meaning. It had a meaning who
was well worth defending with anything that I had to defend it with..
because it stood out as a door who was opened to me when there was no other
doors opened. At a time when I couldn't go down to a movie and um,
go in the movie and um sit in the bottom part, I had to go up on the
right hand side or somewhere in the balcony just like I was some kind
of inferior ( ulI.r,), inferior human being.
B: That's right and yet these people had the ordasity to come into our own
institution and push us out. And and after we gave it to 'em in
good faith, we were happy to do it and we thought we were making a great
contribution, and here they were ready to destroy the very last vestige
of ur, um, any Indian that's there, the student body being. .. well all
those things together just pushed us a little bit too far, didn t it?
D: I think definitely they did. UM they say that a lot of the people that
were involved in the movement were illiterate and had never been there.
Um, this is true, but they also have the right to be proud that their
people had a chance to go there. They couldn't have. ., They took pride
in the fact that this was the place where people like you and I could
go um, when we had the opportunity to come by and it still is um a
S. .fortress, an< educational fortress in the Indian community when
there was no other one e isting in the United States. fhey had other places
like f and um, wI. but these were not designed to provide
Indians with Liberal arts education. They were provided to train Indians
to do what they felt that the Indians at that time could do which was umn,
28
use their hands.
B: Well, personally I think this is what brought me to complete dedication
to the service. .. to the project to save the building. ^nd this is
one 6O the things that inspiredA Here are these people who never had
an opportunity to get more education and they're ready to stand b) my
side and die if necessary.-
D: Right. .
B: And um ur, if they had no advantage of our school system, and yet
they were willing to do this for me, how could I do any less? TJ3-lCd'c IOo
D: Right. .1agS I went to a meeting during the time that the .
controversy was raging and um I saw this fellow, he probably finished the
second or third grade in school, but he he was talking with tears
in his about the significance of the building to him and to his people.
He said that his ghandfather had ditched during the winter and took his
money that he was making ditchin' ditch6a and donated it to help build
this building and for some one of the structures that were up there
it It
and I he said that it was the 0ld Main* Auditorium. And that while
he was ditchin' without shoes, his feet were so cold that they had cracks
on top of 'em where they had frozen and burst. tnd when you take people
like this, he never went to this school, his grandson didn't go to this
school, but yet still he was a part of 'em. He could look on that school
with pride because he had he had donated something to .. to help
some kid in that school that was more fortunate than he was.
B: Right .andsomof his relatives had v2- I <-D
D: Right, some of his relatives had. But um, when you take the people that
had devoted this kind of um, of their life, parts of their life to. to
um,building a building, establish an institution and take it away from 'em
eo take people that have put a part of their life into the building.,,
29
My grandmother donated um, materials for it, she didn't get totgo to
school.,,.After she went to this building when it was a elementary
school. But she never got anything like a high school or a college
diploma from it, but she ( ) it. It was a part of her heritage.
And um, you move around in the community and you find people that .
that looked upon this building as a symbol of urn. of a life that
could be better. And um, in my particular case I. my mother went
withoutnclothes to send me to school there. And, like I said, she
couldn't have sent me anywhere else nowhere I got pride,
so at that time she couldn't afford. she couldn't even afford to
pay the minimum amount of tuition that I had to pay. 6he had to often
times borrow it. I've seen her change clothes and ur, she only had
enough clothes to change and take the ones she had on off, and wash
'em to wear the next day. She didn't have urn, clothes decent
clothes to wear to church. Her clothes were tattered and torn. And urn,
I watched her sacrifice working day after day on a farm in's station
and ur, go out at night and lari and pick vegetables and gathering
# so we can have food to eat. And um, some guy comes and
tells me that urn, this building is not important to my heritage and .
not important to the people that hale sacrificed to get the building
up and in addition to send thJtr&trough that school and it stood as
a place that was the only ( t7\ C ) open to them. You
know I have I have to take issue with 'em. violent issue.
B: And this is our only hope wasn't it?
D: It was the only hope we had.
B: The only hope. .we couldn't get in the White schools, we couldn't
get in Black schools. .
D: That's right.
B: And this ib all we hadw It might not had been all we wished it to
be, but it wgs ours and we loved it and we still love the building.
30
D: That's right .
B: And um, um, do you think they'll ever be able to get rid of the building
or so thing like that again? Do you think our people won't be on
guard now?
D: As long as you're livin', they won't and as long as I'm living I don't
think they will. As long as we can get together they won't. I know
that.
B: Ur. .. this has really tore me up I know thatJ Urn. I un .
it's so it's it's so ironic and so unjust and there's some
situations in which it's better to die than to live, you know.
D: that's right.
B: Um. I believe in every man s heart there is a. .there is a desire
for un. for equality and for the desire for justice and and the
desire for simple human, you know, recognition. This we're. .
we're human beings. We're not animals. We're not savages. And
we're the first . we're the people who has proved this. And
we're the people who have um, demonstrated this to the world. And this
is the symbol that they wanted to destroy, because they didn't want. ..
because they didn't want their kids attending a college and a building
t$t had been contaminated by In Indian children .-hulB 4- .. ).
D: Right. .
B: #%,Some of their P ).
D: And I feel that if this building would have been destroyed, that it
It Ii
would have been pronounced pure. And C .,l. i--..) it would've been
clean then.
B: Yeah. ..
D: Like now. .
B: They meant their victory to be complete.
D: .it stenches like the-leprechaun You know, Mclean clean.
31
If the building was gone, ot it had been torn down, then um, you would
have um, a clean situation and nothing to .. I guess by its Indian
historical past.
B: Well, control of our Indian schools was was eized and um, this
attempt to eradicate the building and our people had been systematically
eliminated or kept down. Um um, if nothing had happened, if we had not
resisted,this um, wouldn't this have amounted to the end of us? Or I think
you've already said that and um .
D: I think it would've.
B: As a people anyway .
D: As a people with pride and dignity, I think it would, would've almost .
completely aaigW&ag us. Because we're living proof today that assimilation
/ is not the answer to our problems. If assimilation had been the answer in
taking on the ways of the the um, society had been the answer, if um,
adopting European methods of dress, if adopting European cultures, European
language and um, life styles,methods of making a living had been the answer,
the we, of all people, would habe been truly blessed in the US because we
had surely adopted this. The education and all the other things that you can
mention primarily of the European people who have settled this area. we
DAt
have adopted modified, improved 40. in some cases, QIsS the style of living.
But yet and still we come back and we're treated um, with the same contempt that u
um, the Black man, the um, Chicanos or any other minority in the US that's
apparently emerging i force has been treated with um, the feeling we're,
for three hundred close to three hundred years, we have been the real
proof, a little over three hundred years, we're proof thatassimilation is
not the answer to the problems of mankind and to the problems of us at the US.
B: Well, um, do you think that being assimilated and assimilating um, can
you see a big difference between the two? Whether you're the .
32
D: The assimilator or the asiimilatee. .?
B: Right .
D: It is a big difference between the two! Um, if you're the assimilate .
if you're the person that that um, assimilating, then um, you;re
taking the things that you want out of this culture and um, and. .
and if given a proper atmosphere or surroundings, I think you're
keeping what the what of your culture you feel is beneficial. In
other words, you're taking the the best of two cultures or the best
of many cultures and um, living your life style as you see fit. Whereas
if you um, are assimilating people then you assume that you are your
way of living and your culture is the correct one which is then the basic
assumption then \hiaMa M 1 t\ I o o /r umL h Indian culture
has been given no um, consideration. It's been bad from the standpoint of
the establishment, and then from the standpoint of um, society at large. No
consideration has truly been 'given to our culture. So, it"s been assumed
all the time that what the other peaWT had to offer to the INdians um, was um,
the best for the Indians and we re beigg treated like little children. And
um, it's it does not wori, it has not worked and it will not work. I
think tht only way any group of people can ever become9 ( um, human beings and
um, ---------. ---of equality and maintain dignity as for them to be allowed to
live as human beings and to be treated as human beings. You can legislate
um, integration. You can legislate equality all day long. But until people
in their hearts are willing to accept other people as human beings on the
basis of what they are and not who they are or where they come from and
legislation is a -- c-------- because you can'tLegislate love and that's
what the whhle things about.
B: Now and do you think the relevent sizes have something to do with it
because um, the American Indian is the smallest of all the minorities and um,
33
um, Caucasian um, group is the largest. So um, it would be possible,
maybe for them to swallow up the Indians completely without being effectdd
or um, or affected too adversely. .
D: Um huh .
B: But in our case um, we ceasv to exist if we are assimilated. And .
D: Um huh -1 -- l )--- -----has been a policy throughout the
history that the United Stated too, that um, .. the Indian person whose(
structure is bad, that he was a savage,he couldn't learn certain things, he
couldn't be um, socially educated and um academically educated to a
level of a white person. And um, he has never been given credit for the
things that he contributed to the major society. Um, the government for
one example, we have this everybody talks about it, the um, -i-
the democracy that we are using. Actually it was the.--------
^ i 3b^,G tnfederacy-type democracy,. I found that probably the US
had an intention of making the union a part of the society at large. Their
whole intention was based on um, anni ing the Indian even through assimilation)
or actually um* taking his life. So, it's been a bad flight and we .
in this area has been somewhat fortunate in some ways but in other ways we
have been equally as unfortunate as the the um, many of our brothers
that have lost their lives and their and their tribal up,organizations
.even
B: Um huh .it seems to me that we've proved too, thatAwe cooperated and helped
fight the wars. Um, in one case, the war against fellow Indians and um, in the
Tuscarora ar. Um. an action for which we received sixteen bushels of
corn um, you know, in early history. And these things um, these don't help
help us. What ever we do, to cooperate um, don't seem to help us and we
don't seem to find any appreciation. Is that your .
34
D: This is my feeling that we're still.-eserT of the land this is the reason
that I made the statement that we are living proof that assimilation um,
culture. at least cultural and part racial assimilation has not bean
the answer and willnot be the answer unless there's a great change in um,
B: Do you think um, this country's big enough and that um, the the
principler- pon which it"s established are broad enough to accommodate all
races and algroups)no matter what?
D: I feel there is. If theprinciples are extended to 9 minority people
O 'c r v'tn {'''< r
without the um, ---------- assimilation. without the
basic assumption the um, European um, type society that we um. that
was brought over here and )----------- ----- --- today,
is the correct one. If one of these things are taken out if there is um,
like I said you can't legislate these things which is in respect for individual
dignity and if these things are are um, coped with there is no
hope. At least for the the minority people to to maintain
anything but a symbol of dignity and ..- rmeaei m ----------
B: Well um, we could I've certainly enjoyed this. I we could go on
forever .
D: Yes .
B: .You know, um, we have something to talk about. And um, I certainly
do appreciate your coming, and and um, giving us this interview and
we're appreciative for the opportunity of um, saying how we feel, for the first
time we are being given a chance to um, to express ourselves and um, I xIMMID
think we should express ourselves freely and make ourselves understood, as well
Sas possible without um, without um but anywaythatk you so much
and um, I'm keeping you from your lunch. .
35
D: No. I'm not gon' Aave lunch. .
B: Is that right?
D: right I've already had a sandwich so it's been mypleasure and
I think if I could solve what I .my feelings are a bout the situation
j you look on t'il-r plight on a surface like lohkiAg on a -- -----
it's beautiful. The scenery is beautiful and um. it looks like we don't
have problems, It looks like we have a core of educated people. We have a
core of blue-collar professional people, we have a core of private businessmen,
and um, we have a core of almost all the things that um, that go to make up
the society at large. It's when you start looking under the surface that it
brings tears to your eyes and burden to your heart that's almost unbearable.
And you know, when you start looking down truly at the situations of the peopel
um, in this area, you find that >.um, the surface is only an illusion an
illusion that um, that we're in a pathetic to say the least. tyke
situation if we attempt to better the plight of our people to be progressive,
to take hold of some of the um, reigns that are deter um, that determines
our destiny .. and we find out how helpless we are and how little control
we have over our lives and how we're just pawns of a system that just uses us
in any form that think fit to use in um. at the spur of the moment or in
precalculated projections for years to come and finally we're probably helpC
less.
B: Well, that's certainly ttue. Um, I believe that in well, I've heard
it said that um, I believe it's true but in some cases um, the power structure in
the past, if you all it the power structure. tm, whatever the purpose
happen to be determines how they. classify us ae--e. If they needed um,
so many Blacks people to make out a quota a send out some bankc.to
Washington, then we became Black. If they needcthat many people to um, send
4t o
out a quota of White people toWashington, then we became Thite. And if it was
36
the quota who required Indians iell then we became Indians. on the
spur of the moment and we had been used in this way and I think all our
people deeply resent this. And um, when people say that we're racist or
that um, we'rlprejudiced! against other races, um, this this just doesn't
tell the story because it's simply that we. we like to maintain our
own identity and um, I don't .I don't think you-'re prejudiced against
Blacks or Whites. I think you're realistic. Um, I think we have to be
realistic in order to survive. Then I don't consider myself to be um.
prejudiced against my Black brother or my White brother of my Red brother.
But um, there somes a time when you have to stand up ourself .
D: That's right. .
B: There's nobody else in the world to do it but you. .you know.
D: Since we are the people that living in this plight, I feel that we're the
people that are going to determine the methods that we are going to get out
of the plight that we're in and nobody else can come in and do it and
legislation can't do it.
B: Right .
D: We have to do it ourself and sometimes we're going to make a mistake and
.sometimes te're gonna do things that on the outside looks bad but we have
to determine our destiny or we re gonna be lost a lost people.
B: Right. And um, 'course we certainly are we do have friends among
other groups that are well meaning people and we have certainly appreciated those
and um, we try t Lake a distinction .. you can't always recognize a friend
from an enemy. But um, I think in most cases you can. .
D: um huh .
B: Um and um,
THE END OF THE TAPE
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