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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
Barton interview w/
Rev. Woods
9/6/72
SLW
LUM 19A
B: Tape 18, side 1, today is September 6, 1972. I am Lew Barton. I
am in my home in Pembroke, North Carolina, and I have with ne Rev.
Woods, who has consented to give ne an interview for the Doris Duke
Foundation Oral History program, under the auspices of the University
of Florida. Rev. Woods, would you mind telling us ... spelling your
name out for us, so that our typist will be able to get it correctly?
W: Rev. J-a-m-e-s, James, H-a-r-o-l-d, Harold, W-o-o-d-s, Woods.
B: ThanWk you very much. You are a resident of Pembroke?
W: That's correct.
B: And how old are you?
W: I'm thirty-seven at the present time.
B: And what is your position at present?
W: At present time I'm a full time pastor employed at Cherokee Chapel,
Holiness Methodist Church, of the Lumbe river Annual Conference, which
is a local Indian Methodist Conference controlled *^ and owned by
people with seven churches and one mission. And the church I'm currently
pastoring is located at Route 2, Maxton, Nor+h Carolina. rural area
I:
opposite Oxendine Elementary School, that's M-a-x-t-o-n, and O-x-e-n-d-i-n-e.
It We wanted to talk to you this morning, uh, are you married, I think we
should get some ...
W: Yes, I'm married. I married a widow with a set of twins, since she
and I have been married we have a son,so there're are five of us in
the family. The girls are sophomores in high school, my son is three
months, three years, three months, three days old as of today.
B: Well, that's certainly .keeping up with it pretty closely. Would
2
LUM 19A
you tell us their ages?
W: My daughters are fourteen, will be fifteen this September 25th, and
my son three--three months and three days.
B: You are a Lumbee Indian?
W: Yes, I'm a Lumbee Indian, born and raised here, Yvard here with the
exception of approximately three years, or nine months out of three
years I spent in the state of Kentucky, where I was doing my Doctor of
Divinity degree for the ministry after I finished college here at
Pembroke State University in the spring of 1960. Then I went on ti
graduate school th theology.
B: Where did you get your elementary education? And your high school educa-
tion?
W: I completed my elementary education in the community where I now pastor /
Oxendine Elementary School. I completed the eighth grade there. How-
ever, I did go to several other schools down in the grades. After
completion' the eighth grade I went on to Prospect High School nd
completed my high school diploma there, and was valedictorian of my
class.
B: That's great. Who was Mrs. Woods before you married?
W: She was the daughter of the late Noah Woods, and Mary Ellen Oxendine
Dial, and she was married to the former Spurgeon Bullard who was
high school princi--, school principal, but had a brain seizure, not
seizure but something' like a massive brain hemmorage in which he de-
ceased very quickly, and uh, then later we met and were married.
B: That's fine. Would you tell us something about your work; your ac-
tivities. I know you're doing full time work, is that correct?
W: Yes, I'm full time pastoral work. I began as a part-time minister
at my home church in November of 1963. I completed seminary that
3
LUM I
spring, but our annual conference doesn't meet until November, so
I had to wait until November unt4-1 I received an assignment. I re-
placed an older retired, uh, elderly retired school teacher and part-
time minister, Rev. Martin Luther betgftery, who retired from, as
principal of Deep Branch School and had built this church where I'm
currently pastoring j6d burned. And he was working with the congre-
gation and they built a new modern structure, uh, brickeneer, brick
and cinder block building' with a central heating system with the
maximum capacity, you could put five hundred people in the auditorium
and four adjacent classrooms with accordion curtain. Actually it's
the largest auditorium, or the largest sanctuary, for seating capacity
among our people at the present time. Though we ha;-e other churches
whose overall plan is much larger than ours, uh, as such. They did
a fine job. And he was disabled as a result of a couple of strokes
and when I came home, then I replaced him and became the minister on
a part-time basis. I taught school for three years as head of the
science department, Magnolia High School an Indian school. And then
for three years I worked as a roving counselor for Rebinson County
Board of Education as a home-school co-ordinator, started as a pilot
project. And when I resigned to become full-time pastor at the end
of May, 1969, we had eight people in the program that I was working
with.
B: I see.
W: And, so when I retired, uh, resigned and became full-time pastor,
uh, and at the same time I was working with the Prisoners' Friend
Socity, which is a group started by one of our former bishops and
another white lady who was among our people for many years and died
here of church work, a Prisoners' Friend Society. They formed it as
/
LUM 19A
a result of establishing a chapel at the local prison camp, which
originally was all for Indians. But now has been integrated with
all three races. And I'm still involved with this work on a volunteer
basis. I'm president of it, and help to set up religious worship ser-
vices, counselin'services, and Bible services, etc., for the inmates
there year round.
B: This lady you mentioned was this Miss Mary Livermore?
W: This is correct. Mrs. Mary Livermore, in fact the building' is dedicated
to her memory and to the work of Rev. Bishop J. R. neoughuy, who
was one of our Indian leaders in the conference I am now serving, that
is deceased.
B: Well, I know you have a busy schedule. I know our many listeners and
readers will be interested to know many things about your work, and uh,
the problems you encounter, uh, the social structure, anything along
these lines--the sky is the limit. We don't ask any trick questions)
but we try to encourage those we interview to talk about themselves
and their contacts and their work and this Sort of thing. This is a
new(ckcncept in history, oral history, and uh, it's what I think of
as*living history4 because the past has been covered pretty well, and
we're more interested in contemporary things, and as you know, the
atmosphere for the American Indian is more benevolent now than ever.
And people are very interested, we want 6, supply accurate information
in so far as possible. So that writers and students will have a
body of material on which to draw when they want to do papers on the
Lumbee Indians, and many people do throughout the country. And of
course this is a national program and I'm working simply with the
Lumbee segment of it.
W: Mr. Barton, it is a wonderful day in which to be alive! Wonderful
5
LUM 19A
opportunities that I had and my father and my grandfather before
me did not have. Wh.le there still remains real serious problems
as you well know, but there's still alot of opportunities avail
themselves for Indians. I was one of the earlier ones that left here
to go away to seminary, graduate and come back, and have remained here.
Some have come here and some have had to leave and go elsewhere, for
p complex reason of problems; some economic, some social, some outside
influence, and some internal dissension among our own people. With
some of 'em as such that ministers that are not here, that are laborint
elsewhere. But the new generation of which I am a part of there are,
anotherr one, Rev. Tony Brointon, that is now back from seminary, and
we are finding' open arms and aoot more acception and support that some
of our ... the older people just did not recieve. And of course I
h CC
count myself very privileged to have a chance to go to school like I
have had though I primarily worked myself, sent myself to school
gith the help of a few friends, as such, my dad died before I was six
years of age, as such, left my mother with five children and on the
way with another one. We were just poor tenant farmers But
providence and elp of people, things have been very kind to me, and
I might say to some of my brothers. I have two that have finished
college as well. So I've been very fortuante to go to as much schooling'
as I have. But beyond this this again as. far as I'm concerned
shows the change in attitude of people. And when I did leave here to
go away to school, to seminary, I was gladly accepted; I was one of the
firstindians to go to Asbury Theological Seminary in Wilmore Ken-
tucky. And the dean told me at that time Dean that the only
reason they had not been Indians before, says none have never applied.
Then I f'und out later from talking to one of the professors, Dr.
6
LUM 19A
Greenly, in the area New Testament languages, that he had been
talking' to some Navaho Indians, who were in Taylor University in
Upland, Indiana, but at that particular time they had not decided to
come to Asbury, so I was the first one to go and was received and got
along right well with the people of the local community as well as
at their own the seminary campus.
B: Uh, incidently did you have any problem because of the fact that you are
a Lumbee Indian doin' your studies?
W: No, I may have been partially favored. I still had some people in
some areas that looked at me; they weren't quite sure. They was
almost certain I wasn't a black, yet some would ask sometime, but
then on the other hand they knew I wasn't a white. And another thing
was in my favor too-at this particular institution they had quite a few
students from India, the country of India, over a period of years.
They're doing some studies to return home to work with their native
peoples. So I think the fact that they had been there before made
it easier and I, my color and theirs was --- we had alot in common
so they were rather easily and able to understand and accept this
but the idea that so many people have of the stereo-typed, or nickel-
headed Indian was their problem. They just hadn't seen an up-to-date
American Indian descendant who wore modern clothes,/new modern language
and speech and was somewhat educated, and striving to do better
to return to his people. This was a new oddity for many of them.
B: They were expecting you to come with others, in a sense.
W: Perhaps so. And there were problems in language difficulties and what
have you and I was exposed to English from my childhood up though it
may have been very broken English:and more akin to what we called
Elizabethan En lish, rather than modern English as such.
7
LUM 19A
B: You're aware of course that yourrsurname is a "Lost Colony" name?
W: Yes, and I've been rather interested along with other people, you
and others, who've probed into the background of this, still oc-
cionally I run across things and keep searching' and askin' questions.
In my class was one young student from Belfast, Ireland, and another
from Manchester, England---we graduated together so from time to
time e get together and exchange views and thoughts;on some of these
matters while I was in seminary.
B: And are you convinced that we are the descendants of this colony of
1587---this English colony?
W: As far as I can tell in my own mind I'm satisfied with this for several
reasons. One, we are definitely of Indian ..., Indian ancestry, but
on the other hand our culture is predominately that of the white cul-
ture, and my own reason and satisfaction as to why and what happened
this is the best explanation I have found for my own satisfaction and
from history and the studies and from the work among our people, what
they tell us is that we were one of the first Eastern Indian groups
to come in contact with white civilization. As a result of this it
soon became Christianized, as the word is commonly used. And as such
it's a common custom, in not only this country but in many countries,
when people, natives become Christian, they accpet Christian names,
and many of them both first names and last names.
BB: Yes.
W: And this is documented in many ethnic groups across the world. And it
seems rather plausible and this is the prime explanation as to what
happened to us, and why we have the names that we do rather than the
traditional Indian-names and culture that most Indian groups have.
Because most of the Indian groups still have their native religions
8
LUM 19A
of which here we have none.
B: Uh, huh. Our religion is completely Christian or nothing at all#'*
oi and a Protestant Christianity.
W: That's correct. We have no Catholic groups among us at all. We do
have one Seven-Day Adventist, but that's the only what we call off-
brand Christianity; the others are traditionally Protestant, Christian
churches.
B: And of course your Mormon Church.
W: Well, I'd forgotten about that temporarily, you're correct, you're
correct.
B: But I think all this is very interesting and I know for myself it's ...
that this is true and I ... I'm wondering if the knowledge of this
doesn't encourage our people and help them to overcome an inferisity
complex that they've developed over the years because of mistreatment
and being snubbed and shut out and this sort of thing.
W: Well, personally it's easy for us to cross from our Indian communities
into the white man's world and compete with him, than it is for many
of the other Indian groups because of this.
B: Uh, huh.
W: Our thought patterns, and language barriers is not the same a as many
other Indian groups. So it's easier for us. And to me, in fact I'm
a product of the church. I went to church as a boy, my father was a
lay minister in the church I'm now serving befc) he passed away. And
later I got involved with the church through my grandparents when
I went to live with them for about three years, and later with another
friend whom I spent six years with, Mr. Lucas Oxendine, who is now
a a retired public school teacher, and president of the C -cc/ y
Pa/ 94VS Association at the present time. And living with them I
9
LUM 19A
got very actively involved with the church. At the age I of nine-
teen I made what is known here as a "commitment", or "confession."
I committed myself to the Christian religion and personally em-
braced it as mine. And this gave me aot of personal sense and
guidance, the providential protection and blessings of God through
the remaining part of my years. V-e fact I had a chance to go to
college, it was very rough because of the limited money I had to go,
but yet I thought out of deep sense of conviction I must go. Because
this was the plan and will of God for me. And so I went with the
intention of either entering some phase of medicine or become a
college professor, which I had an option of... a scholarship made
available for me, but by the time I had completed my college
degree, getting' a public school certificate and being certified in
History-Science, my major, and in also in Bible I had been called
by God to enter the ministry. And of course at first I had some real prob-
lemsvith this because I'd as I'd said had plans, a chance to become
a professor at the university, which it is now, so I looked upon that
with great favor. I also turned down another wonderful opportunity "'
LC
become one of the first Indians to work with the social service, not
social serivce, but the Social Security Department, at that time,
which was in Fayettevill- North Carolina. They wanted to employ
an Indian to work with our people, and this as a very good job, and
the thoughts of three more years of school and more money and I
wanton to get out and go to work was quite an internal conflict.
But I finally passed the hurdle and went on and I'm glad that I did
and accepted the training' and now ar 'qualified minister and one of the
leaders among my people, as such.
10
LUM 19A
B: Rev. Woods, we were temporarily interrupted here because the sound
truck passing and so forth, do you remember where we were?
W: I'm not quite sureV,
B: But you were doing so well I didn't want to interrupt you at that
time. We were interrupted at that point. You were talking about
your career and your church work and that you are in the full-time
ministry, you told me that.
W: -
Yes, and I ... I have some other outside other responsibilities. I
am one of the board of directors for Lumbee Regional Development Associates,
Incorporated, which is a private, non-profit cooperation founded with
the sole express purpose of doing educational, social, and health
and economic development program'for the Lumbee people. And we are
primarily funded by the Federal Government. We've had some small
assistance from the state level, but we have been able to be instrumental
in getting a number of grants awarded here to do programs for our people.
And of course I'm the treasurer on this board of directors and it's my
responsibility to oversee the physical ... fiscal responsibility of the
organization, and must co-sign all checks as such as well as do the
bank reconciliations and check with the certified public accountant we
have employed and see that regular reports are made to the Federal
Government and the disbursements of our funds according' to the guidelines
of the various programs that we do have. Since this agency's been
into bein' as you know, Mr. Barton, we have been able to assi--, work with other
Indian groups h.:our own state to help bring into bein' the North
Carolina Indian Commission, and we're very proud of this. It's not
all we want, but it's a step, we think in the right direction that will
bring some state influence and some state resources to bear--manpower,
money and otherwise, to help us help our people and do things for
11
LUM 19A
ourselves. And this is about the only thing we ask of anybody is to
give us a chance to do for ourself, not necessarily having it done
for us, but the kind of resources and help to get these things done.
B: Uh, huh.
W: And to date we think we're doin' a reasonable, credible job to this point.
Though we would admit readily it's not been all we would love to see done,
we have programs in economic development, we have programs in education,
to supplement the public schools and the university, uh, but we do
not as of to date have a definite program in terms of health
and this is an area we are deficient. We need more doctors, nurses,
among our people and we've been working' hard trying' to find scholar-
ships and other assistance along these lines that will enable us to send
our people on off to higher education to get training. We have the
manpower and they have the native intelligence ability to do it, it's
just to a large degree the lack of money because it's t& expensive
For example, we have one young man who received a Federal Government grant.
and went through law .school and came back and became the first Indian
practice law now in the staee of North Carolina. We have four, five
nDre away training. And if we were able to get the same kind of assis-
tance we could do the same thing as far as medicine is concerned. It
would not only be a blessing to our V people, but other races here in
our county and adjoining county as well.
B: Excuse me one moment, the cat is interrupting us now. .... I had to
pause momentarily to put the cat out because she was separated from
her kittens and quite distressed about it, it seems because we had the
door closed. We were talking about LRDA, the Lumbee Regional Development
Associate, or Association, which is it, Incorporated, and what ... could
you tell us something about it ... well, you've told us something
12
LUM 19A
about it's specific purpose, could you enlarge on that just a bit?
W: The specific programs we're doin' at present is that of a ... we were
originally awarded a $4300 grant that came through the National Congress oT
American Indians. We did this ... we used this money to do a Lumbee
Outreach Project, which basically working' with the cooperation of
Robison Technical Institute to do a Lumbee ... get our Lumbees and in-
volve the older people in basic adult education programs, and we did
some other work, referrals, and services with this. And when we com-
pleted this money then we were without funds for almost a year. We
raised pg CA ef e funds among ourselves and various sources and got
matching' ... little bit of ... few hundred dollars of matching' funds,
but we kept goin' with voluntary help primarily. And then we were funded.
The U. S. Office of Education Emergency ../, or ESAP we call it,
Emergency Assistance Program, almost $65, 000 And once we got this
money and got this program going, then we were able to tap into a
basic adult education program, which we enlarged upon from the original one
we were working' with RTI, and now have our own employed ... some of
our won i employed staff as well as the cooperative endeavor between
Robison Technical Institute.
B: Uh, huh.
W: First year was about $70,000, and the beginning of this physical year,
fiscal year, as of June, beginning of July and June of this year, we were ...
that amount was doubled virtually, to $130,000 in our program. And
in fact it's been a pilot model program, ...
B: Um, huh.
W: ... and we use Lumbees to reach Lumbees, and Lumbees' local setting's of
their own home communities. And this has ajot to do with the suc-
cess of our program as such.
13
LUM 19A
B: How has your response been to these ...?
W: Ty been very good. Been very good in terms of the adult people
responding; lots of-4pm finding' and learning' how to read and write,
and finding' a ot of joy and excitement in the process. So that they
can sign their own papers and forms and get them to the place... our
goal is to get them to the place that they can fill out an application ...
make application for jobs, and read the newspaper and things of this nature.
We do have another program which is Talent Search, and that is trying
to give assistance and guidance to our young people in high school and
those that are entering college and those in college to try to keep
them going onto school and trying to find what money and resources are
available to assist them---stipends, scholarships, etc. We've established
a scholarship fund. Our organization is tax-exempt by the government
and by state government. So we have a letter from our Internal Re-
venue Service that we are ... have this status so the contributions
can be sent; it's a very small one but we're hopin' eventually to en-
large on it, so from foundations to whatever source we might be able
to get some money to have some things, to send some of our own people away.
As well as looking' elsewhere for moneys and such. This past year
the grant was for about $45,000, and according' to some of the results
of the director of the program we have been able to secure about this
amount of aid from outside sources to supplement Lumbees, and community
colleges, uh, junior colleges, senior colleges, and some in technical
schools, uh, so the grant was well worth it.
B: Oh, yes. Do you feel that we have many people who are college material
who are not able to finance themselves or get ...?
W: We do have some Lew, and then we have a few who are able to go who just
14
LUM 19A
choose not to go because ...
B: Yeah.
W: ... they want to work, to they have other opportunities and theywork
opportunities here among our people has improved) in the last ten
years a great deal, and which we're grateful. This is a result of
Mr. Slim Barnes, we call him, here in the county, who's employed as
a industrial commission, heads up the industrial commission of our
area, and has been able to bring alot of industry. And ke Lumbee
Indians is one of the strong work force,whether it's on the farm or
in the factory in not only this county but in adjoining counties, and
they seek their employment.
B: Yes.
W: 'Cause they're good, hard workers. They earn their bread. They're not
loafers, just try to get a buck or bead off someone and uh, our people
as a result have built a ot of low and medium homes, and trailers, and
been able to put their feet down on soil that they can call home.
B: Right.
W: Little plots. And this has been such a gracious thing to see and how
pleased and how often I heard people make this comment and especially
our people that are away in the cities and elsewhere. And a few of 'em
are coming' back.
B: Um, huh.
.W: Because living conditions here most of our people live in a rural area,
you're not cramped as you are in the ghettoes, say of Baltimore, where
many of our people live or Greensboro, or elsewhere, where slum and
rushed conditions. Hete you're in a rural area, you can do a little huntin'
and fishing' while you have your own little piece of ground, and maybe do
a little gardenin', which many of 'eg like to do, and this adds a4ot of
15
LUM 19A
joy, and then again this kind of bein' free and rural people which our
people love, uh, it's just a real blessin'. And industry, though the
wages are minimal, they still have been a blessin'.
B: Yeah. I ... I'm sure ... I understand about the problem of going to school
because I ... I had difficulties in my own case, and I had nine children,
incidentally, and uh eight of them have finished high school, and I
have one who is still to finish high school, and I had a boy, the boy
who graduated this year with high honors wanted to go to college this
year, but unfortunately we. were not able to ... to get help for h-m--
financial help.
W: That's terrible, it is.
B: But I'm sure we1,. have problems like this, and it's encouragiing to know that
somebody's working on it, you know, because ...
W: So that the others who want to go, or maybe him later, will find something'
that can correct the situation.
B: Yes, I think he plans to work this year and enter next year.
W: I had a sister, a younger half-sister, that decided ... we had made plans
for her to go to technical school, what she wanted, gud she got to working'
and she just doesn't want to quit working' to do St it. She has a r1qht
good job, but we've still encouraged her, and have several times, but she
still hasn't made up her mind to f get away from work and she's still
single, to take this specialized training.
B: Uh, huh.
W: Another area, Mr. Barton, that I've been limitedly encouraged, not as-
greatly as I'd hoped, lot of our young Lumbees have been away in military
service, some have volunteered, some have been drafted, trying to get
them to take advantage of the GI Bill.
16
LUM 19A
B: Uh, huh.
W: I've had some of my young men to do it but nearly everyone I've had
come back to my community, attend my church, I've made it a point
of my ministry to sit down and talk with him-and almost persuade him
or try to to take advantage of this GI Bill; if it's nothing' more than
just a six month or year and a half technical course of study, uh,
getting' him some specialized skill that he can sell on the labor mar-
ket that will enable him to get a good payin' job, just not a job, and
be a leader.
B: Um, huh. We had some, I don't know whether you want to talk about this or
not, 'course we want you to talk about only what you want to talk about,
but uh, we did have some problems in our school system in 1960 as you
re-all, I mean in 1970, ...
W: Yes, we've had some problems, and still got some ...
B: Uh, we have a ... as you know we are members of an organization called
Concerned Parents Organization and sometimes people get the wrong conception
and think we're opposed to integration, uh, I don't think this is our
goal at all, do you?
W: No, that was not our goal, though some of the press misaiquoted and mis-
understood and some of our people in the movement had some of these
views, but the truth of the matter is I never from the beginning bein'
involved and bein' the treasurer of that organization had the idea to
oppose integration. Our people from about '66 onward beginning' with
Head Start program and then working' on in the public schools were some
choosing' to go to white schools, and some of them were involved with blacks
in the community goin' to school and all went well until the fall of
1970. In which very unique thing happened, and it almost brought our
people to the brink of war, which is something we don't like to think of,
17
LUM 19A
or talk about, but it virtually brought us to that point. I spent
S!J tzf sleepless hours rollin' and twistin' in my bed at night prayin'
to God for help that we would be able to avert it. But we came as close
goin' to war as many of our people as we have perhaps for a hundred years
or longer.
B: Right. Uh, could you define this problem so that it might be better
understood?
W: Well, it's a complicated one. In fact the Justice Department of the United
States government and some of our local attorneys we have hired with
this case in Fayetteville, North Carolina, 7e,//L, 7 '// I represented
our interest in it, has conceded this, along dth the Harvard Law Center,
out of Harvard University, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, has conceded as
one of the most complex situations they have encountered in United States.
B: Uh, huh.
W: I had soie correspondence I received through the mail yesterday from them,
\vr5
a written letter to confirm what I just stated.
B: Uh, huh.
W: Here we have three races almost equally divided. And we have the Robtson
County Board of Education, we have the city of -lurMeiion) has its edu-
cational system, the city of Fairmont, the city of St. Paul, the city
of Red Springs, and the city of Maxton.
B: Each has a ... each has a superintendent and a board of education ...?
W: Each has a superintendent, a board of education elected by its people.
These lines were set up originally with the intent of primarily control-
ling where the white children wanted to go to school. The rural area
in Roblson County Board of Education, then what poor whites ; were
left in the county, and what Negroes were out there, At? /s J('1 who
have lived in a rural area and worked the farms originally,
18
LUM 19A
primarily this was our task and responsibility. These lines and geographi-
cal locations were set up with these things in mind. However, twenty
and thirty years later now these very lines were in force. That is HEW
forced the ... these boards of education from lettin' us cross them
as we had been doin' all through the years goin' to our predominately
Indian schools in our Indian communities. And this rpught us, as I
said earlier, almost to the brink of war. There was some gerrymandering,
we're almost certain of some of these lines, but we filed suit in Fed--,
United States District Court in the eastern district here in the state
of North Carolina, trying' to seek an injunction to get some injunctive
relief from it. But it's been very difficult because the Justice Depart-
ment has spent an indefirte amount of money and time trying to ascertain
what was and what isn't and as well as we have ourself.t And it's been
hard for us to come by money and resources as well though we have been
helped from the Harvard Law Center and some work and effort has been
given from the Duke Law Center, and the state of North Carolina has given
some legal assistance. But still it's been a rather expensive proposition.
And within the next few weeks and days, weeks at most and days at the earliest,
we hope to have to make a definite decision on this as to which way we're
going to proceed with it. What we'd love to see and what even makes the ...
-F-
aggrevates the situation even more for us Lumbees is that the Robtson
County Board of Education is electd county-wide by all peoples in
the cities and rural areas votes on our board of education. But and
vice versa, we cannot vote on the other boards of education in the city
0/
units. So we feel like here is an unequal protection of the law or voter
uhs-bi-tes u o -. And if it proves that within the leg--, ...
the litigation that we're now involved with doesn't prove very successful
19
LUM 19A
at this particular point because when we filed the suit we ... our two
basic alleged errors was that we were being bussed indiscriminately and
disproportionately than other races, and also that our communities were
being carved up by these lines. And they are cut up as a result.
B: And originally these were segregation lines?
W: That's right. Now they're used for the purpose of integration.
B: Uh, uh.
W: And of course all these things really aggravated us and with the thoughts
to the back of the mind that we had tried several times unsuccessfully
to elect boards ... members to the board, Robison County Board of Educa-
tion that we felt would represent us. We have had one man on the
board of education, butVb've always thought he was put on there with the
consent of the white primarily to represent their interests and go
along with them. They had a black man on there, and this time the
black people didn't return their man and I ... we are confident, and
they told us, and from their lack of support of him for this very reason.
B: Uh, huh.
W: And as a result another Indian lady that we feel will represent our area
come November we hope she will be put on. But again we had another
gentleman that we wanted on there very badly and a large segment of
our people, but they outvoted him in these strong white stronghold
areas because they didn't want him on there because he has been one in
our school suit, and not only that, trying to improve the rights of
his own children from Prospect area, Mr. L. H. Moore, or Harvard Luther
Moore, who is a grandson of the Reverend William Moore who 6s founder
of Pembroote State University.
B: Right.
W: So we're still in a stru e and still have a problem that's still
W: So we're still in a struggle and still have a problem that's still
20
LUM 19A
unresolved, but we've also been working' on this thing politically
this year. Some of our leaders have been and some way or another,
by God's help and by the help of the state and federal government
we're gonna find some relief some way at some time.
B: Right. We are Americans and we are entitled to whatever privileges
are ours under the law and ...
W: Right. And we pay taxes, we are not tax-exeicpt as many of the Indian
groups are. We pay our local sales tax, our local state tax and
Federal tax; in fact the tax money last Frideay I went to the local
Indian bank, Lumbee bank, that we do business with, Lumbee Regional
Development Associates, as a treasurer, and I deposited a little
/// o000
over elpvpev-nth anus- rlIl rs taxes from the payroll of the ... of our
employees. So this shows you how strong, how much taxes, that's just
one payment, and that was not all the taxes for one month either,
BI So in effect they are getting two votes to our one, and then .. '. rc aCt $
'd control.
W: Right. Indeed. They control, and we cannot. Originally also we were
allowed the privilege to hire and fire df our own school teachers and
principal. This has been taken out of our hands, is now done by
the board of education.
B: Yes, and the state gave us that privilege under the old system.
W: Under the old system. And this again, you see, we have lost the control
at this point of our schools. With the control we feel like by some-
one else. And this is very distasteful and unsatisfactory with us as
a people and we are not going to be happy or satisfied 4til the day
and time comes that we will have a stake in sayin' what will be and
who will teach our children---not A in terms of race as much, but
the quality of our people, and if our own people don't measure up, we'll
21
LUM 19A
fire 'em We've done it in the past, ..
B: We always did it.
W: I'm sure we'll do it in the past, in the future, no question about it.
B: Uh, how does this effect teachers uh, since they have encroached
upon our rights e feel.
W: Well, the teachers feel more and more that, you know, they have to toe
the line and there's less a possibility for them to speak out and some-
times do some of the things they'd like to because they feel like if
... well, it's just an enoachment to a large degree upon their own
perogative. Though I'm not a teacher at the present time, my wife is,
and has been for a goodly number of years. And I have a lot of other
friends that still are teachers and working and it creates a real
problem, uh, as such, at this particular point.
B: Ne do you think in essence this is taxation without representation?
W: Without equal representation, definitely.
B: And I think you were at a hearing in the federall court and I understood
federal judge Butler to make a statement like this and I want to see if
you remember this statement--he said, for a hundred years our whites
and our blacks took the tax money of these people and built themselves
schools and these people had no schools, and he expressed sympathy
toward us although he has to abide by the law and he can only admin-
ister the law as it is.
W: This is true. The exact time or length of time this happened I'm not
sure of, but definitely this happened. And he said it always amazed
him why this was allowed to happen. That the Indians had to pay tax
n'I
even in this period of time had no schools of their own, but yet was
J)l4- ea/l&0( the privilege of going to the other schools. In fact this
22
LUM 19A
the basis for the -,cVn p"/beginnin' of what now is Pembroke STate
University.
B: As I recall this was Judge Algernon Butler.
W: Of the United States District Court, the eastern district, whose offices
or &ere he holds court in d Clinton North
Carolina.
B: Uh, huh. So we do have a very real problem and uh, having these six dis-
tricts it's already in bad enough condition, but before this plan went
into effect in 1970 had not some of the white rural communities been
annexed'to city units for the ... as we see it for the purpose of
building white school districts--building up their districts. I'm
thinking now primarily of ...
W: C Pine ...?
B: Like the CiBern Pine situation.
W: Yes, this was definitely what happened. In fact one of the United
States Justice Department officials and lawyers was down here looking'
at some of the lines, and checking' 'em. The only way he could des-
cribe the situation in particular Lumberton, North Carolina, their
boundary lines was it was like an "ameoba," which is a, little one-
celled animal that has no shape or form, and can create a hole right
in the middle of him and yet absorb things outgde around. In fact
there's one spot in the city, system of Lumberton we have to send
Robkson County buses through to pick up some Indian children to take
them back into our school, we're passing' through their lines to do
it.
B: Um, huh. So the gerrymandering or the design to favor separate schools
is very obvious even in ...looking at the map.
W: And especially, yesand especially\ in the Lumberton area more so than
23
LUM 19A
any place else in the county. Of course,that's the county seat,
that's where most of the politics, politicians are, and that's where
most of the power is, and they pretty well control it.
B: Right. And of course the two areas that seemed more concerned or
who have seemed to express more dissatisfaction than others were
Prospect and Oxendine --4 school, and uh ...
W: Yes, we were, and ir 'trVou and now since then /./,- FOUe and
Magnolia has become as militant or more so concerned'over the respective
schools of theirs. At first they were not very much concerned, but seemly
since then they have, and they still have concerned parent meetings,
organization5in their respective communities and uh, "e seeking some
relief and some help as such. And we're hopeful that they will. I
might point out, Lew, as a result of this publicity some was favorable,
some unfavorable, for our cause, but one thing that has come out of it
is that it seems almost certain now that we're going to get some special
X3-
assistance money by way ofMUnited States Government, especially ear-
marked for Indian education. Whereas before for a hundred years or
longer we've been seeking some special help from the Federal Govern-
ment because of the fact we were Indians to help us in our educa-
tional fight and they've always turned us down. We have letters even
datin' back as far as the Reverend William Luther Moore, I mentioned
earlier, founder of the university, where they turned him down in the
requests he made and all along but it seems now as certain that this new
educational bill was passed by Congress some time ago, whenever it is
funded, that by way of the North Carolina Indian Commission will be coming'
some money for the state of North Carolina, us Indians such as the
Cohara in Sampson County, the JCaCP"^ in Lake gya,0 1 ^C ,
a e and us Lumbees will be getting some special assistance
the /-/4Iwc jI and us Lumbees will be getting' some special assistance
24
LUM 19A
for the first time in the history of this state that we know anything
about.
B: Well, I certainly am happy about that.
all
W: Indeed, so if we don't get / out of the schools that we want we know
this is coming and that ... this will be indirectly as a result of some
of our efforts anyway.
B: Yes, and we're still trying)and it's a very tragic thing. We had one
lawyer, one lawyer from Washington with the Department of Justice mur-
dered evidently because there was a knife in his back and this ...
during, you know, this controversy, and this distressed us very much,
this because this murder so far as I know has never been solved.
W: And we have wondered wheht&br it had any link or connection with
his investigation and assignment to this case in this area.
B: Yes, he spent much time here and he did have the goods. He did have
the evidence and uh, I could ... I can't help wondering about this
and in our suit, are we chargingY0 -Department of Health, Education
and Welfare actually conspired with these units here to --- -- this?
W: I wouldn't think that they actually conspired to do it, but the net
results are about the same.
B: Right.
W: They accepted proposals and things that they put forth, and under oath,
-E-
the Robison County Board of Education and other units in the county
had said that they were going to effectively integrate their faculty.
And the Justice Department has brought suit against them for failure to
do this one thing so the Justice Department and have done
this which gives justification to the allegation that we made, we
were treated unfair.
B: Uh, huh.
25
LUM 19A
W: Uh, to a large degree in some areas what we thought they were doin' was
putting' Indians and blacks together and hardly ... into where there
was vry few white students to put in these schools. They didn't even
put white teachers they just put the Indian and black teachers and
1C/(/ 1I iA i and Union Elementary School this was particu-
larly true and brought it to where there was some actual blows, and
some teachers almost harmed and this aggravated the situation and
the peoples' feeling's because this is what was done.
B: Do you have any idea as to what the Robtson County ...
B: This is side 2, of tape 18, continuing the interview with Reverend
Woods. At the end of the tape I ... I was asking a question as to
the number of Indian pupils who make up the Robison County system
at present if you have any information about that.
W: In 1970 about 56%-60% of the student body in Robison County Board of
Education were Indian children. And since these lines were enforced
that number has dropped. And I'm thinking' it dropped down to some-
where between eight and nine thousand from something' like somewhere
around ten or eleven thousand. Now these are estimates, I don't have
the exact figures at hand at the moment as such. We lost twenty,
was it twenty-seven teachers, I believe, from our traditional Indian
schools went into other school systems,most of them did. Here's
another threat that we're afraid of that we're going to lose positions
that are rightful ours by the number of children we have in this
county going to school---uh, to lose the right of employment. We
do have because of Pembroke State University being and then predominately
in the past they training' people for teachers. We have alot of our
people are trained in this profession because there were not many other
26
LUM 19A
opportunities available and open for us, in business as they are
now and other doors; in law. In fact times have been so if you went
to law school you couldn't come back here and get admitted to the bar
and practice law and that's the reason Commissioner Brantley Blue is
in Washington, and was in Tennessee, and a friend I was in college with,
a fellow from raLy Loughry,I always called Jack, is practicin' in
the state of Tennessee, instead of here in North Carolina because he
did sj and before he went away to law school said he was
coming' back because of problems that were involved. But some of these
problems at least we'll cross the hurdle and finally made history
and got one back here and hope we're hopefully we'll get some more.
B: Do you think we've been prevented from having an Indian lawyer until a
few days ago when olth Locklear did pass ...
W: It was Horace Locklear. Yes, this ...
B: Horace Locklear.
W: This has been our feeling's justly or unjustly so, and we were ...felt
rather strongly about it and from various sources of information that
they just planned it this way just the way it was anyway.
B: Anyway he's the first Lumbee Indian to pass the bar exam, the North
Carolina bar exam, and to pass it in this state, although we have very
able lawyers practicing in other states including the United States Indian
Claims Commissioner appointed by President Nixon that you mentioned while ago.
W: That's correct.
B: The Honorable Brantley Blue, Commissioner Brantley Blue.
W: And we might point out this, Lew, Almost a hundred years ago we had our
first Indian doctor known as Governor Locklear--Dr. Governor Locklear.
He had his problems, he'd been away from school a good while, and then he
ended up marrying a white lady and it frustrated his life and he e
e end
d
27
LUM 19A
up in dillusionment and a final leaving from among his people.
B: Um, huh.
W: Lately in the last ten years we had another Indian doctor who finished and
came back here now we've had countless other doctors to complete medi-
cal school and some in s& eas but they always practiced away from
here ; were never able to come home. Dr. Brooks came back and he'd
been gone from school from the time he finished high school away from
here at college and his medical training' and he married a white lady,
and he came back. I wouldn't say that that aggravated it as much, but
his agitation, the troubles he's had here has led to his divorce, and
he's remarrietow the local Indian lady, uh, as such. So there's been
problems for our professional people when they seek to go into other
areas like this. And this is a matter of record not of feeling nor
of prejudice.
B: Right. This reminds me of the case of Mr. James K. Brayboy do you
know about him?
W: No, go ahead.
B: Well, I have been told that because he married a white ...
W: You're right. Now I remember. Go ahead.
B: He had to leave this county and he simply went across the line into
South Carolina a few miles away and there he was accepted and became the state
teacher of the year and almost became the number one teacher of the United
States last year. I believe he was about third runner-up ...
W: Right. He was one of the Top Five in the nation.
B: But it's very tragic and ironic that conditions like this rob us of
some of the very best talent that we have and talent which is so very
desperately needed not only among our people, but among other people of
28
LUM 19A
the area as well.
W: Who could benefit from it as well. This is true. I pointed this out
some time back, uh, Senator Everet B. Jordan, who was kind enough to
introduce some additional legislation for us,t has not been passed for us,
in the United Sates Congress. He was down here campaigning he was up
for re-election, and I pointed out to one of his staff members that
anything t-Kar athiLng that we get or is done for us down here, even
though specifically earmarked for Lumbee Indian, indirectly it will
help other people.
B: Right.
W: And this amazed him, because apparently it had never dawned on him or
to people as such. But this is tnue.
B: But the help we can get elsewhere will ... will leave funds available
-"-
for something else, because there's always a shortage of funds in Robtson
County since this is one of the poorest ...
W: ... counties in the state. And yet one of the largest geographically in
the state.
C ollti
B: Right. And uh, eaa you tell us a little something about this Jordan bill?
W: Well ...
B: I think it's already been introduced in the House ...
W: It's already ... it's already been introduced into the ... the Senate;
whenever ... in the late 1950's, the Lumbee bill bein' passed, the In-
terior Department bein' prime responsible for it, they had a discriminatory
clause added into it that denied us certain privileges and rights. And
we were wantin' this taken out. The original authors of the bill among
our people did not have it in there and when it passed the state house
of legislature in Raleigh and went on to Washington it wasn't in there. But
it was added there, and we had been asked them to take it out, and put the
28
LUM 19A
bill back like it was original like our people voted on it in the
fifties here. And it has been introduced in the United States Senate
and was up for hearing' but it has not proceeded any farther, and with
Congress so near the adjournment this session we're somewhat afraid
that it might not pass through, but if it doesn't then hopefully come
next year there will be a new Congressman, or Sen. Jordan bein' a fine
man, but because of his age was a factor against him, bein' in his seventies,
he lost ; in the run-off. So we have made contacts with the two men, one
Republican the other Democrat that are running llii G 1 fl, the
Democrat representative, and Helms, the Republican representative, and
the Congressman, Charlie Rose III, who was the attorney and helping'
found our Lumbee bank, we're sure that we're gonna get considerations and
help all around, perhaps as well or better than we had this time be-
cause our present Congressman, Alton Leonard, just was.uncooperative
all the way with it.
B: He didn't support it at all.
W: Oh, no, oh, no.
B: Uh, I remember some remarks made by his ... his secretary, when you
start talking' to her about a bill like this which ... is designed to
-S
eliminate this discriminatory clause, which Sen. Jordan definitely described
as discrimination against Lumbee Indians because uh, although the act of
Congress recognizes us as American Indians, as the Lumbee Indians of
North Carolina, yet you have in this clafpe after all these flowery
words uh, "They shall not be entitled to any privileges as Indians be-
cause of their status as Indians." "es, they patron one side of the face,
and slap us on the other! But maybe we'll ... maybe we'll be able to
overcome this. And one of the pet phrases that is used by Congressman
zm&l l lady assistant is "Let's all be Americans." Can you imagine
29
LUM 19A
anybody saying to an American Indian, "let's all be Americans."
W: When we are the first Americans! The original Americans, and if that isn't
true there is no such thing as American period!
B: Right. Well, uh, we certainly have problems, but you feel that we are
making great progress?
W: Yes, we're making' progress on, we think on all fronts. And we think this
is the decade. Professor Adolph Dial of the University, and just
happened to be my brother-in-law, but he and our new attorney Horace
Locklear both are convinced, and both have travelled across the nation with
aot of other Indian groups and leaders and contacts, they are convinced that
this is the decade of the American Indian. Personally I hope so, not
because I'm an Indian, but I'd like to see this nation do justice to
the people that were here originally when this nation was found and
discovered.
B: Uh, huh.
W: And we're coming' up now ..soon be celebration' our two hundredth anniversary,
and I'd love by that time for this nation to feel justly and proudly
that we have done something worth recognizing and the recognition of the
original inhabitants of this country. I really do. And I'd love this
country to get to the place that it feels this way, instead when you
their their
start talking' about American names, have to admit / guilt and / shame
and disgrace and this kind of thing. I'd like for them to feel proud
that they have dealt justly with us, and when they haven't that they've
given us an opportunity to try to make amends for some of the things that
have happened in the past.
B: Yes, this is great and I think it will happen because ...
W: I do.
B: For the first time people are listening to the American Indian, and they
30
LUM 19A
are cond4 during it and somepeople are ... many Americans are very con-
cerned about it. And uh, I believe one of the reasons they haven't been
before is simply because it was not brought to their attention. People
assumed that all was well and good with the Indians, you know, because
after all so-many of them were under government supervision, uh, which
doesn't ... which doesn't actually guarantee that they're going to be
treated well at all.
W: True. From their own testimony those who are under government super--,
supervision, and this brings up a point that I remind this fella that was
killed, the Justice Department attorney down here investigating, asked us
asked me why you are not interested in a treaty or c. r/,'// that of a
reservation. I says from the effect that reservations have had on Indians
and their lives and how oo- things are, I says, our people you
couldn't give them one. They wouldn't have it because we're far better
off without it. We have the freedom to buy and own, : and compete in
many things We're far superior and better off than they are. No,
siree, no thank you for your reservation as far as we're concerned as a
people here. We're far better off without it.
B: We prefer our freedom, whether we win or whether we lose.
W: Amen!
B: We want to do it on our own.
W: Right, right.
B: We want to be like the lady in the ad, "Momma, I want to do it myself."
W: Yes, we're better off we feel because some of the recent goals been set
for other Indian reservation and groups to achieve such as a shopping
center ori using project-- these things in particular we've already
achieved "Pd a bank. We have our Lumbee bank that's been in operation
now for about nine or ten months and goin' strong; we're building' a
31
LUM 19A
permanent building' to house it in. We have a Lumbee Housin' Project
that is well ... under as way in construction in addition to the many
individual owned homes that I mentioned .earlier. Part Y of thesLumbee
Housing Project will include about thirty-five or forty units for older,
retired people with low income, and below moderately incomes, to help look
after them and this will be a real blessin' as well as some individual
family units. In addition to this we already have a Lumbee Indian Shop-
pin' Center, owned and controlled by our own people and primarily by
one propriety, uh, Mr. Ward Clark, Jr., who happens to be also part-
time minister among our people as such. He was a former public school
teacher. So some of the things that they're proposin' we've already
at, and almost already achieved to date, In fact we opened the first
uh, Indian bank in the United States.
-LC
B: Right. one of thihhas been easy, is it- A i /V
W: Oh, no. Oh, no.
B: But of course the Founding Fathers never promised anyone that democracy
would be easy. They just said it was the best form of government; self-
government is the best form of government.
W: True, and a man like Abraham Lincoln, whom I've admired a great deal
in my growing' up, coming' up the rough side the mountain like he had, and
I've identified myself with him so many times in reading' in his books
and thinking' back as a source of inspiration and guidance and that uh, the
things that he stood for has meant aot to me, and I'm sure to ayot of
own, our others of our people as well. Uh, in trying to be self-reliant
and independent while you must be dependent upon others to some degree,
but yet never overbearing on others, and expecting' others to do for you
when you can do for yourself.
B: Right.
32
LUM 19A
W: And if we had all but always had a chance to do for ourselves equally
with the others we would have been farther down the road than we are.
B: Um, huh.
W: And this only in essence really we're askin' for is an eqpal chance
with the other guy.
B: Do you think this is something however which conjures up fear perhaps
in the Causcausian group? Maybe they think we're getting along too
we&l, or we're ... a threat to them or something?
W: I'm sure ... I'm sure there are some who would like to see us back in the
fields pickin' cotton and just tobacco work and the other menial to
that of hard labor jobs because our people coming' up out of hard
circumstances have learned to work hard as a normal thing. And many
of them have not known this kind of previous experience so they don't
work, and can't work quite as hard and take it in stride as many ... so
put us out on competing basis at this point and we'll outrun him every
time almost. And this is true not only in the ..the work-a-day world, but
many times in the academic and intellectual arenas as well, we com-
pete and do rather well.
B: Uh, huh. I wanted to ask you your opinion about uh, the director of
welfare services has resigned and I think that post is still to be filled
and ...
W: That's news, Lew, I didn't know that.
B: You didn't?
W: Miss Patue 's gone?
B: Yes, she's resigned,she's not gone yet, but they have A%. I "ia4 '
W: Ahhh.
B: ... a new appointment, but ...
W: Well, my reaction is from the problems we've had in the past this shouldn't
33
LUM 19A
mean anything but something good. Or an improvement. Hasn't been
in the worst of the world, but it hasn't been the best either. The
problems we've had and bones of contention so I can say that I feel
that this would be definitely and should be and if it's not with three
minorities sitting' on this advisory board somebody's gonna be a fallen,
uh, fail to take advantage of a wonderful opportunity. We have two
Lumbees sitting' on that board, one black, and two white. So surely
if they don't get a good input and a person that is much more amiable and
acceptable to the public, yet do a credible job, then I pity the whole
lot of us.
B: Have you observed this among uh, people who administer social services,
um, I'm not saying they're all this way J^-P
W: Some of 'em are commendable and I've worked with some of 'em when I
did the field work for the Board of Education; some of these people I
had aot of respect for and 4 appreciation, while others I had real
reservations and questions about and still to some degree I have.
B: Some seem to feel that they're primary purpose in serving on the Welfare
I-
Board is to reserve, is to protect Fort Knox I've often said, you
you?!
W: The money part of it?
B: Yes, ,
W: Rather than to render services to people that are in need.
B: That's right. To render as little service as possible and in some
cases to sabotage the program ...
W: Ahhh!
B: They don't really believe inthe program, and have you ...?
W: Let me say this Lew. I was amazed to see this past year that the Social
Service Department was the one department didn't spend all the money
34
LUM 19A
that the county commissioners allowed. I didn't want to hardly believe
it when I saw it in print.
B: As desperately as we ... the need is here in th&s county. We've got
something like $3000 ...
W: Well, some people make less than $1000 a year income. We still are
low income; there are aiot of blacks and some whites and Lumbees, uh, as
a whole. ... the blacks as a whole across this state are in much better
shape than we are. It's a sad story that I don't like to admit, but
it's true.
B: Uh, huh. Well ...
W: Taken as a whole ... takin' the Negro race as a whole, economically
positions and all, they're better off than we are.
B: Uh, huh. And uh, there's a great difference in the per capital income
of the black and Indian families, and the white families in Robson Cbunty
although theirs is not the highest. I think they have on a national level,
they're low, I believe they have something like $4-5000 a year and we have
something like $1200 or $1300; there's about a hundred dollars difference
between the black and the Indian, according to the last statistics, I
believe.
W: Uh, huh, I see. There's another, Lew, study that's being done now by
the University of North Carolina at Raleigh through the Sociology De-
partment of which LRDA sub-contracted fQe or sMN interviews of Lumbee
Indian families. We sub-contracted it and did the Lumbee part of it
because of the uniqueness of the structurecof the family in terms of
numbers, income, family, this kind of thing, and the same g equal num-
ber has been done of the whites and of the blacks here. We did not
accept that part of it; there's a black citizens' committee in Lumbarton,
North Carolina, that are doin' the blacks, and RTI, Robtson Technical
35
LUM 19A
Institute, is doing the white part of the survey. There they hired
people. And here should be a rather interesting and revealin' and
be
this is just will-/completed this summer, and this winter. This
study was funded I think some federal project, I'm not sure of the
exact .. the specific name of it as of this moment.
B: I would like to ask you, if I could change the subject just a it, on
what is your impression of the forthcoming drama, outdoor drama?
W: I trust it will be a real blessing, and I'd like to see us be able to
become, uh, strike at the wind, because this is ... just like we were
talking' about the school suit earlier; there are so many forces out
there that have been brought to bear, to bring other things into bein'
and we are bein' a minority people many times we get caught in the
middle. That we didn't have nothing' in bringing' into bein' in the first
place. They were designed to achieve other goals, but yet we get caught
Lowry
and effected by these. And this depicts as the rgh y men did years
ago a strike at the wind because they were so many forces against
them that they hardly knew where to strike to get things changed
and corrected. And sometimes we fought almost the same way, and I think
the title's aptly chosen. In the first place and I trust it will be-
come something not only to our own people, to many others. The story
of our history and of our struggle of survival, and I think the Old
Main incident--I'd love to see it become a national shrine and a state
shrine so tha hen people comes we would have some things to show them.
These are some firsts in this nation.
B:) Yes, sir. Well, I guess you know that we've had ...we've had word
from the State Department of Archives and History that they plan to
nominate Old Main for preservation and for listing on the national
36
LUM 19A
register
W: Beautiful! Hooray! Man, what a day! There's another victory, there's
a victory.
B: Hasn't even come out in the paper yet, but I have a carbon copy of the
letter.
W: Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
& So some people are listening .
B: Yes, indeed, and I've always felt that this old saying about "the word",
uh, the pen is mightier than the sword ...
W: Well, you and I you bein' a journalist and I bein' a preacher, we'd
have to agree on that! Or eitherwise quit our professions!!
B: A very interesting thing happened to an Italian-American, you know, sixty-
one years ago. His parents paid part of the $40 burial expenses, and
the rest was never paid for some reason so this man has been left on
/ top of the earth for all those years, and he's placed inside of a wooden,
crude wooden box with a glass over the front and he's been on exhibition
all these years, and uh, when the weather is hot it smells a it, and
Lup rv b1A
he's been housed inside this funeral home in Warn g and just within
the last four weeks we ...we came out ... I came out with a story in
the RobAsonian about this Italian-American. And an Italian-American
a' C-f 07C ^/A./Mi
Congressman got hold of that story and now there's an international
A A
incident about this thing and I think this man is going to be eventually
buried.
W: I would agree, and I'm glad tosee it come to pass, and I'm glad to know
that a Lumbee was the first one that picked up on it and to point it
out.
B: It certainly does prove that uh, this is something which shocked me so
much because I've never actually come into contact with this sort of
37
LUM 19A
thing before and I believe that minority groups sympathize with him
because he was a poor man and because ...
W: And a traveler at that passing' through the country.
I ,LG
B: w0n d in this area of the country although the Italian is Caucausian the
minority groups identify with them ...
W: True, true.
B: So we hope to see this resolved too. I ...there are so many areas,
you know, that people can work and can work with each other and for each
C/o
other. Uh, I believe that uh, that we are learning to more and more
of this. Not only to help ourselves, but to try to help other people.
W: Right, because we are our brother's keeper whether we sometimes say "like
it or not", and many of the times we do like it because we do like to be
of help. This is a particular characteristic of our people, though,
that I ... I'm very proud of. A guy that's pushed down or in need,
needing food or family been burned out, uh needing help or needing to
be take to Chapel Hill or someplace for medical services or treatment
they're very kind and very gracious whether he's black or white.
I've known of a few cases where some of our girls have married outside
of our race and one case specific, a white man, he lost the use of both
kindeys, and he had to go to Duke, three, four trips a week and ar-
rangements were made by the ministers or other interested people to
take him there, and money raised to help pay some of the expense was
there by the church, an Indian church. And this is only one of a
number of such incidents, where ...people ... sometimes they've done things
where they were not as, where one of our girls were married and in-
volved, but I'm just sayin' that there's a ... our people have a big
heart and are willing ... and a lot of people have also taken advantage
of ths-r situation and put a law on us also, it's gone both ways.
38
LUM 19A
B: Do you see a marked difference in the attitude of our Caucaucian brothers
outisde Robison Cbunty and inside RobAson County?
W: Definitely, definitely. I can leave here and some of the places I
and
travel and go away from here and how I'm accepted and responded / some
of the eyeball looking' and liftin' of eyelids and expressions of faces
I receive back here sometime, it hurts me really personally. And I
wonder and it makes me say, "Well, why can't I get the same treatment
here and why can't I be as proud ame=g my own friends and neighbors
right here in this county and feel as well as I do other places I go?"
It really burns me down deep and bothers me even though this is home
and I plan to be buried here, ord willing unless He so decrees ohher-
wise. But it is a real problem, though it's improving' and I'm glad to
say. Uh, though I married a local Lumbee Indian girl while I was
away in graduate school I had quite a few chances at Mexican-American young
ladies. I had a date or two but not much, and quite alot of opportunities
at young ladies of white race, and not out of prejudice but out of
concern of what would happen to me and them if I did marry one and come
back. I knew the problems I would face would not be good for her nor me.
B: Or for the children.
W: Or for the children. And I knew and I tried to explain this to a+ot of
'em, and even my male companion friends uh, couldn't understand this.
And I said if I would fall in love or love a person and would want to
marry them, /j 4_as I said I think I'd try to love 'em enough to leave
them back there and not get married because if I went back to Robe-
son County and was walking' down the street and she my wife who she
was white and somebody said something to her or looked at her I said
I'm not a violent man and have never been a fistfight since I've been a
grown adult, and taken especially since uh, since I've taken the vows
39
LUM 19A
I have of the ministry. But I says if a person would treat my wife
*..L I says it would come as close to me punchin' them in the
nose if I didn't do it, and probably would as anything I know of.
I says I just would not want to put her nor myself in such a situation.
So I come heresingle and by the grace of God when I finish my studies
I'm going to go home that way, and hope that God will prepare a Lum-
bee for me. That I'll find someone and I've been fortunate to find a
fi wife who's quite qualified not only as a public schoolteacher, but
has almost a major in music as well, and is a great asset to my church
work.
B: Oh, that's wonderful, that's wonderful. This is perhaps theology, but
you kno there is a feeling among some of our Christian people that be-
fore we get married we should consult God about this.
W: Well, you know, people ... it's not characteristic of the Christian religion
but others they consult the signs of the zodiac or astrology or the
old Indian did the spirits about some of the decisions they made and
why shouldn't we? Something as important as a marriage partner, or
considering what vocation of life I'm going to be and do. These are very
momentous decisions for an individual and God is concerned with our
wellbeing and our health, then surely He must concern that we get the
best out of life for ourselves and for others, then He is concerned at this
very point about us finding' and discovering' what latent and hidden
abilities we may know or may:not know about ourself, and they be
brought to bear for the help of mankind. So it's a very practical mat-
ter, not only a matter of theology as I A- it and feel, and try to
practice.
B: Right. That's very true, uh, I certainly look hopefully toward the future,
40
LUM 19A
don't you? The past looks darker than the future to me at this point,
how about you?
W: Indeed, indeed, would agree. Would agree. I have lots more hopes for
my son though he's only three now. As I look to the future economically,
socially, and hopefully we get some more health and doctors and medical
care in this area, there are hospitals but the hospitals do not have
all the staff they need, and we don't have all the economic resources
we could use, but still it is better than it has been. And with the
university here surely he has the chance if he has the ability to do so
and I've taken out a little bit of an educational policy, it ain't
but a few thousand dollars, but a little bit to help me so when that
day comeslopin' if I can keep it paid up, when he's eighteen and starts
to college, I'll have a little bit to help me if I have health and
strength then to see that if he can go to school. This is another area
that there's beginning to be a change among our people. The younger
ones are beginning to take planned parenthood more serious than the
older ones in terms of limitin' the number in the family and a few
insurance policy, health policy, life insurance policy, educational
policy and beginning' to plan for the future and this will help us all
and insure a better and a more richer and quality-controlled future
for the oncoming generation of our people.
B: Do you think there's an attitude hhere, a non-Indian attitude that if
the Indians are given little help and discouraged enough that they
eventually will have to leave home and so the so-called"Indian problem"
will be solved in this particular way?
W: Well, in this particular area it might solve it for the particular whites
that are here, but it goes somewhere, it just moves to another geo-
graphical location.
41
LUM 19A
B: You have the same set of problems wherever ...
W: Wherever they go. So why not just solve it here and it won't be ... need
to transpose it someplace else.
B: Right.
W: In fact if you solve it here it won't be a problem here nor ... or any
place else. The failure of the South particularly to solve the racial
problems of times past has caused it to go ... migrate to the North,
seeking' freedom, seeking' relief. And now the North caught up and the
South trying' to solve it, and if the thing is solved then men won't need
to go North, East or Suth or West--he can stay at home wherever he choose
to make hom and enjoy the fruits of his labor and of his work and
try to live each man in his tepee in peace.
B: Right. I have faith in this country and I'm sure you do in this ... the
basic concepts of this country, its freedoms, its opportunity, however
limited they are for us we do think of this country as a land of
opportunity, do we not?
W: Yes, and feel very strongly about it or so many of our Lumbee youngsters
and older ones before me would not have spilt their blood and some
have died for the cause of this country in war.
B: Right And if ... even though we have more than our rightful share
of difficulties and obstacles K' and this sort of thing I cannot
help feeling proud of our people because of their accomplishments and
of the many ways they've distinguished themselves in all ... almost all
different field of human endeavor.
W: This is true. Now let me refer to something I said earlier--the con-
ference, the church conference that I am a member of is all Indian.
The leadership is Indian, it was formed by Indian leaders, incorporated
by the state of North Carolina, given a non-profit charter and corporation
42
LUM 19A
as such, and uh, what churches we have are Indian minsters, and nearly
all of the members with the exception of one or two, are all Indian.
Not that we discriminate that much, but it's just the way things areR/{I
have been--and the monies have been raised to build the building's,
over a half million dollars in physical assets, uh, this conference
has; this is money come from our own people--no money from the out-
side; the ministers--we have two men now on full-time, we have about
five men in the ministry who have college degrees, or four, and with one
just about to completeIcollege, and several that have not gone to college
that we train--have an own in-built training' system of courses of study.
We train our own people, and I share with them some of the things I've
learned, having gone away to seminary. And so we are able to ... here we
have our own. And we're competing' with the Baptists, and with the
United Methodists who have outside source and help, and with the other
religious groups that are among our people. And we had just as good, if
not best, quality-wise, than any among us.
B: Right.
W: And it's our own, we control it, we decide its destiny and its fate, and
our revenue come from our own people, and we have churches that are as nice
V
as any you want to attend--in terms ofa'ir-condition, central heatin'
system, uh, classrooms, and teaching' aids, and so on it goes.
B: Um, huh. This is great and uh, the religious life of the Lumbee com-
munity has been a real thing ...
W: Ah, indeed, indeed. If you ... intend in any degree to understand the
Lumbee you must understand the role of the church in his life.
B: Right.
W: And that of the ... you take the church and the school as we know 'em today
this has comprised, and the community life, most of our way of life, which is
43
LUM 19A
for a long, long time. In fact since the church and the schools came
into bein' among us.
B: Um, huh. I've noticed that some Indians some Indian groups else-
where throughout the country have become disenchanted with Christendom
it seems, hut here it ....
W: We have almost become more enchanted. The younger generation ...
B: Right.
W: We have more interest and enthusiasm and more involvement on their part
to help modify church building s, uh, community clubhouses, Jaycee huts
and other social and economic improvement programs along these lines.
nI suspect, Lew, probably in the history of our people, our
younger people are more trained and more educated, they're enlightened,and
they have more opportunity at the better jobs, and some of/Aem are
getting' it, and they are maiin' their means felt in a constructive,
not a destructive way among our people, and I am one who's past thirty-
five, and to say you don't trust one after he gets over thirty-five,
I'm grateful of these younger people.
B: Oh, they're great.
W: And the little bit I had to do with starting' some of the young people's
movements among our little conference and have contributed a little bit
maybe to some of the other groups in the ... among our people, I've
seen the seed grow, and I don't regret the sacrifice of what I've put /'Avo/oed
B: Well, I've often described our people as a loving people, a kind people,
a generous people, uh, they are ... our people are something to really
be proud of, they?
W: We feel so. Definitely.
B: And perhaps our ... whatever accomplishments we've made, would you say
44
LUM 19A
that they've been made inspite of, but not because of?
W: The obstacles and things that were before us, and the limited opportunities.
We've turned a lot of tragedies into triumph, and to some ... to some
measurably degrees, some greater than others. In fact before the Ku
Klux Klan plan became a problem nationwide we had the first confron-
tation with them and put 'em on the move from our area.
B: Right.
W: And you probably remember years ago that when we had a local problem here
with the state board of education over the hirin' of a principal here at
Pembroke High School that some of things we wanted them to do has later
become state policy.
B: Uh, huh. This was in 1964.
W: Yes.
B: This was when the local board hired a Ph.D., and the county board rejected
him, and instead installed an M. A. And this brought a lot of dissatis-
faction from among our people.
W: And again this points out the control the Robdson County Board has, and
the others over us, over against our will and our wishes.
B: Would you say they've wrested this power from us, and the power to control
our schools, uh, inspite of the spirit of the law which established schools
for the Indians and definitely states that they shall have the right to
hire their own teachers and their own principals and things like this and ..
W: Right. Right. And later you see now the government, the state govern-
ment, and a ot ... to a large degree, the federal government's going back to
this thing of local controlled education and destiny of peoples.
B: Right.
W: Yet this was the very thing we were, we hammered at and they tried to go
45
LUM 19A
to court, and elsewhere, back then to try to get some relief, but
fought a losing battle.
B: Right. I believe that eventually the mother who brings a child into
the world will again hav e the freedom to send that child to the school
which he feels will give it the best education, don't you? I believe
it's inevitable.
W: I think so, and I think it's perhaps alot of inherent right. Because
if you're Buddhist, you want to send your child to a Buddhist school;
that ought to be your privilege. Or Catholic or Jew. And have a Jewish
background. Or if you're an athiest, you shouldn't be force to have to
go to a religious school as such, that ought to be your privilege.
B: Right.
W: Uh, to a large degree some of these things are true, and to others who
don't have the money to send them to some of these places, they just
don't have the means and the ability to choose as such. And our people
were doin' well; we fought for the freedom of choice, and we were making'
integration headways, and were doin' it peacefully, but as soon as they
forced the other program, then almost brought us to war.
B: People thought and feared for a long time that when integration came, and
when we received the right to go to Cher schools, that we would im-
mediately break down the walls and we would ...
W: -lee 4-'em out!
B: Flood them out.
W: We haven't done this at all.
B: We went in the other direction and people have been so surprised over this,
and not only do we have a court suit, but our black brothers in this
/^unty have an almost identical court suit, which ...
46
LUM 19A
W: For closing' down one of their schools, from grades one through twelve.
There's not been a white school that I know I of in this qunty, especially
high school and much of elementary either. They may have cut down on
some of 'em, has been closed. But the blacks and Indians were the ones
all designed and earmarked to be closed down and this resent and will
to the nth degree.
B: And so what they are doing really is building a white school system
at the expense ...
W: And the white communities, economically and socially and what have you,
at the expense of the blacks who have suffered more to date than the
Lumbees have even though they were the real pusherin other parts of the
country and we got the benefit from it down here of integration. Yet
the blacks have lost principals, teachers, and to a large degree be-
cause of this thing. We're just trying' to insure that it doesn't hap-
pen to us.
B" It's very sad that ... that such noble intentions should be reversed and
made to actually work against the minorities for whom they were ...
W: Really intended to help.
B: To help. And this is so ironic it's almost like blasphemy, isn't it,
it's a ... complete about face has been done; we ... we remember when black
students were not only given the right to attend the schools of their
choice, but were escorted by federal ...
W: Marshals.
B: Marshals, and uh, their rights were safeguarded, but now this ... this
seems to 19, this is regimentation and the loss of freedom for every-
body. And I was so happy when this happened because they could go
wherde1ft they wanted to go and this was freedom to me, but this is not
freedom as I see it, how about you?
47
LUM 19A
W: You got one choice, and that's all. That's no choice.
B: They tell you where to go, and this is where you have to go no
matter whether it's conveniently near or whether it's in the distance.
They force you to follow a principle that they speak of as "racial
bpaance", and why ... why should the individual American be saddled with
the responsibility to bring about a racial balance? If the government
wants to do this, and they're determined to do this, let them do it and
not relegate it to the shoulders of the individual citizens. This *.SeAwts
repulsive to me, they tried it and '. they ... they haven't succeeded
and they're gonna ... they've became tyrants, in an effort to force their
people to do the job that they think ought to be done. And no matter
how the people feel about it and I'm sure that black people share this,
I know they share this feeling in this county and I know that the In-
dians share this feeling.
W: Yes, yes. And I think some of the black national leaders are beginning' to
wake up to some of the things that has happened and I trust that they
will also be intelligent enough and acu y aware of what's happening'
enough to correct some of these deficiencies and some of these mistakes
and some of these tings that happened, at this point. If they don't in
the long run they're people are going to be the losers as a result.
B: Right. And this is very sad because this is a land of freedom and
there should be freedom for everybody. You can actually bring about
tyranny in the name of freedom and you dont have freedom at all. So
sometimes it can be robbing Peter to pay Paul or ...
W: Right.
B: And this sort of thing. Well, uh, I want to ask you the $64,000 ques-
tion. If you want to comment on it, fine, and if you don't want to,
fine. But I wanted to ... you are so active and you are so dedicated to
48
LUM 19A
the improvement of the community as a whole, I want to ask you do you
think we're getting a fair shake at Pembroke State University, which
was formerly Pembroke State College for Indians?
W: In the immediate past, my thoughts were definitely we were not, because
whenever I was ... went there as a freshman, the fall of 1956, that was
the first large influx of non-Indian students, and most of them were white
besse theyvhad n black at that time at all. I helped to break the
structure of our Indian organizations and things and get some of these
people involved, and helped to get the first one elected to the student
council, which was the student governemnt association on campus, while I
was there. And from that day until this one I've seen such a reversal
in terms of refusing' to hire competent Indian professors or people
with Master's degrees, and some, one with a Ph.D. It turned out to be
a blessin' in disguise for the man that didn't hire the Ph. D.because
he is recently finished a specialized, after havin' finished his Doctor
degree in the area of Physical Education, he did a specialized degree
here at the University of North Carolina, and .js%, this past spring
Dr. io 3o Brayboy in- k( a public health officer for the
United States Government of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and as a
result of this he will be given an assignment with the responsibility
of overseeing something' like forty doctors and I don't know how many
nurses.
B: Um huh.
W: So ... what ... they refused to hire him here as he tried and wanted to
come home to work here at the local university turned out ,... this ...
to a great blessin' to him. Yet on this same faculty we do not have
any Indian men employed in the physical ed. plant ...department that
N\
49
LUM 19A
I know of, and here we've just completed a two and what, three-tenths
million dollar phys. ed. plant.
B: Right.
W: And this is very, very distasteful to me personally, and I don't think
that overall we're getting the kind of break that we need and are deservin'.
We don't need all-Indian staff, we don't need all white staff, we don't
need all black, but there ought to be a fair representation. And the
sweat and sacrifice and blood of our people gave birth ...
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