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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
LMM
AUGUST 22, 1972
MR. AND MRS. REDELL COLLINS
ROUTE 1, BOX 369
SHANNON, NORTH CAROLINA 28186
I: Mr. Collins, we appreciate being able to come into your home
and talk to you. What is the name of this community?
S: Rex-Rennert.
I: That's spelled R-e-x-r-e-n-n-e-r-t. Right?
S: That's right.
I: And, uh, how long have you lived in this community?
S: 37 years.
I: This community is predominately Indian, s> mostly Indians
live in this community?
S: That's right.
I: And this is near Red Springs?
S: Right.
I: Red Springs. R-e-d S-p-r-i-n-g-s. Uh, what kind of work do you do
Mr. Collins?
S: Construction work.
I: I wanted to ask you about your wife. What was her name before
you married?
S: LockaDMe.
I: And what is her first name?
S: Evelyn.
I: E-v-e-1-y-n. Right.
2
I: Okay. Do you know how old she is?
s: a(3r Th' :f. I
I: And you say, you have how many children?
S: 6. S5 vefv,-
I: Let's start with the oldestone and come on down to the youngest
one because our listeners would like to know, you know, meet you
and the family and these things about you. What's the oldest ones
': name?
S: Barbara h&
I: Barbara Ann. And she is how old?
S: f i years old.
I: Right.
S: And Brenda Sue's second oldest.
I: And she's how old?
S: She's 3I /f t
I: And then who comes next?
S: Beverly.
I: How old is Bev?
S:
I: And who's next to her?
S: Harol ean
I: Harol ean. I gues you'd spell that H-a-r-o-lr d-e-a-n.
S: Yes. And he's do) Irfr ZNA/ .
I: Now who comes next to Harold?
S: Gertha Mae.
I: That's spelled G-e-r-t-h-a M-a-e. And she's how old?
3
S: aA 3-'I nearly skipped one.
I: Then she's Vp and next to her is ,,
S: Jimmy Dean.
I: Jimmy Dean--how old is Jim?
S: I S^V -
I: I believe we have one more to go.
/V, V a,
S: Angela Renee. She's uh, 9 months.
I: Nine months old. A-n-g-e-l-a R-e-n-e-e I guess.
Uh, well that is certainly a nice size family, Mr. Collins.
Do you do construction work?
S: Yes.
I: You construct buildings. c
S: Houses
I: And how long have you lived in this community?
S: Thirty-ssen years.
I: What wadspyur father and mother's name?
S: Henry Collins and Gertha Mae Collins.
I: Are they still living?
S: Yaeh y t -
I: Do you happen to remember their ages.
S: Daddy's 59 and Mama1, 58.
I: Uh, hum. You know there's one thing I want to ask you. You
know I have heard. You know there's one dc--you are an Indian
a Lumbee Indian like myself, right? And you know I have heard
people talk about--that's the Collins Settlement. Is that because
there's a good number of Collin's families in and around Red
4
Springs. Or is this the settlement?
S: This is g4i family. There are a lot of us--f of us, seven boys
and seven girls.
I: That's a nice size family. And do they--what does your father
do? 15 Ae -**
S: He's retired.
I: He's retired. I know you are very active knowing you personally
-xthis interview because I know you personally
and you are a person I admire very much, because you are so
active and you have always worked to improve yourself. And you
always take pride in community activities, just about anything
the new community has to do in a constructive way, they usually
call on you, don't they?
S: That's right.
I: And you don't ever refuse them.
S: No.
I: Well, that's very nice. Did you get the advantage of much education?
S: No, most of my education was through adult education.
I: So you went to adult classes after you were married?
S: Yes.
I: I think that's very commendable. You have been very successful
with you business,haven't you?
S: So far.
I: That's great. What school do you children go to?
S: Some of them. all of them go to city school,ARed Springs.
I: And they are (-Ube t, aren't they? And is this very different
5
from the old, you know from the schools they used to go to?
Can you tell any difference?
S: Some. I think the community school's a lot better, than some
other community going to somebody else's school. We always say
somebody else's school in a different settlement.
I: K rather t1an.go to a community school like RexPnnert School.
They bring other people in from other areas to Re"k1nnert and
send yours, which is near Rex-Rennert into other places.
S: That's right.
I: Uh, do they go to more schools than one;are they divided?
S: Yes, they go to all city schools--there arethree different
city schools in Red Springs.
I: I see. They haven't hadthey don't have any trouble over
there, I mean at this state do they?
S: No, not anymore than children does have. t / h0
I: The usual.
S: There have bAee disagreements; if they come home and don't
complain ihen .they have to live with it.
I: They don't get any encouragement at home. Are you a member of
the Jaycees, aren't you?
S: Yeh, I have been a Jaycee for two years now.
I: iow about the community action program, the poverty program. You've
always been, uh, you've always tried to help out. Although you
probably don't need this help yourself, but you've always tried
to help other people.
S: Well, I remember when Mr. Johnson, President Johnson got what he
called the great socicty;going and then these people come around
6
and had all this money to put up a building then we could get
help from the government. So we got together and raised $10,000
t builfta 4,000 square foot building and leased it to the poverty
program, part of it. Now we're using the other part of it for a
daycare center.
I: Well, now that's uh--all these community action programs don't
have daycare centers do they?
S: No.
I: Wasn't your center about the first one to have a daycare center?
S: Yes, it was.
I: Or the only one?
S: Well, it was the only one because ours was not paid for by the
government. We get our money local.
I: 'They didn't give you funds for the daycare center. And you got
together in the community and .
S: That is what started it.
I: That took a lot of work, didn't it?
S: A lot of sweat.
I: A lot of money too.
S: This advancement program give us $18,0001ast year. They didn't
A -
get funded til that run out.
how long
I: But you had been off waitinglbefore you got any help at all.
S: About three years, before they finally came in and somebody .
I: Well, I'm glad it's doing as well as it is because I know how
hard you have worked at it. And I know how sorely needed day are
centers are for people who work everywhere. And do you have any
plans for the community action program expanding it or changing it
in any way, any time?
7
S: Well, we got some plan ylou know to change but not--nothing
definite at this time.
I: Uh, I want to ask you about your church affiliation. Where do
you go to church?
S: Well, we travel about 1M miles to church out of the community,
it's a L.D.S church known as the Latter Day Saints.
I: Right. Well, ---------, I've enjoyed the few times I've been
to services thereand I'm sorry I haven't been more often.
S: I believe we hbe ten--ten studentsCfpm our branch going to
B.Y.U.--Brigham Young University.
I: You've got about ten students from this community?
S: Well, from our branch.
I: From your branch. Well, that's great. Now, they do--your
church does a lot of community work too, doesn't it? I mean
it's interested in your problems and all. Is your churches
growing--are your churches growing I should say?
S: Yeh, well, our church is building a church a day, you know on the
whole.
I: Uh, huh. Nationwide.
S: Yeh, we're fixing to start one. Matter of face, we're doing the
paper work on it now, but construction probably be the first of
the year. We're going to build a quarter of a million dollars '
I: Some people call this the Mormon Church, don't they?
S: Yes, it's nicknamed the Mormon.
I: But that's not the correct name. Uh, I want to ask you this. I
beliTe I'm correct but I had better ask you. This is the only
8
American Christian church in the world, isn't it? It was es-
tablished in America, wasn't it? And this church takes a lot
of interest in American Indians?
S: Yeh, well now in the Book of Mormon--the Laymonites.
I: The Laymonites. And you know, in my observation I have noticed
MIyV
that your church is very mch interested in the Indian people.
Of course, this is an Indian community. How far do you think
this community stretches out, do you know?
S: That's the Indian community?
I: Uh, huh. I o
S: I would say it goes from the iabertsrn County line north to
the R 4ob on County line south, which would be south of the
border.
I: That would be in South Carolina?
S: South Carolina, yeh, South Carolina.
I: We've got a large Indian settlement then haven't we?
S: Well, since I got messing with politics and this kind of stuff,
if-
you know, I thought just a small bunch a people in one corner
that when you go over the county asia whole, you find out
that it's pretty big all through the county.
I: Some changes took place, now. I know you're in this part of the
county and I know that the Indian people are trying to help them-
selves through every available means, including politics, We
had some interesting things to happen in politics this year over
here didn't we?
S: Yeh, we elected a county commissioner.
I: This was the first time?-
9
S: Yes, first and last. Uh, the county commissionethat we voted
out been there twenty years. Had done nothing for the
Lumbee Indians so we decided to try something new.
I: Well, I certainly congratulate you. And what is his name?
S: Bobby Dean Locklear.
I: Bobby Dean Locklear. I might be able to interview him too, maybe.
Hope so anyway. Well, this is very encouraging then for the
community, isn't it?
S: Yes, well you know we have been working t so long to try to get
somebody elected into office and everytime we would mention it
people would say, "well we would try but we don't never get
nobody elected" So we finally did get the county commissioner
elected, seems like people has more interest in it.
I: Right. They can see that it can be done.
S: I think it's a step forwards. Look a little diffeint for us.
I: Uh, doZ-you have any visions to the future, I mean in politics.
Do you think that now you hav a man elected and all thst the
interest will continue?
S: Yeh, it will. WFve learned a lot of tricks in politics, a great
deal. We're beginning to learn some of them and it's going to be
different. It will be a brighter road for us.
I: That's great.
SCounty
S: I think we can change County.
I: Well, you think it needs changing, don't you?
S: It do need change.
10
I: And some things have been changed. It seems just within the
last year, doesn't it?
S: Yes.
I: A4ng-those things. Well, being a Lumbee Indian myself, I cer-
tainly hope e continue and don't, uh, stop having we've gone so
far. I want to ask about the Lumbee Bank. Aren't you part-owner
of that?
S: Yes, I'm a stock holder in it.
I: Do you hold any office in the Lumbee Bank?
S: Well, tyre not eete office yet we've got about six months
yet.
I: I see. And how is it doing?
S: It's doing fine. It started off with $600,000 and we had a meeting
a couple of months ago. And I believe it was $2 l mil-TTjSftusad.
And it's really moving access at that time.
I: Mr. Collins the home we're in now is a very beautiful home and it's
a very spacious home. tDid-yotrbuild-this yourself?
S: Yeh, piece by piece.
I: Well, it's certainly marvelous. Do you know how wide it is?
A
S: Well, it's about 1700 square feet.
I: 1700 square feet. How many rooms have you got in your house--this
is brick, isn't it?
S: Yes, its brick veneer. Eight rooms.
I: Um, huh. Well, it is all certainly wonderful. I think everybody
loves to hear a success story and your story is certainly a success
story. And, uh, when you came up, did you work on the farm?
S: Yes.
11
I: What happened--well, you have some farm land now haven't you?
S: I believe I have about 35 acres.
I: What do you do with it?
S: I'm a hobby farmer--you can't make no money out of it just have
a lot of fun with it.
I: (Laugh); How about livestock and .?
S: Well, we've got some hogs and a pony.
I: Well, I know it is someding to, you know, to give you a lot of
pleasure. I think most of our people love to do farming, you
know, some anyway. And, uh, .
S: I sold, I believe about $1900 worth of hogs this year.
I get a lot of kick out of messing with them--it's just
spare time stuff--in the evening, in the morning, before you
go to work have to get up bright and early run out and feed the
hogs.
I: Well, I know your work is in great demand. I know that people
are always calling on you; you're always working. I guess you
work all the time.
S: All the time. When you got seven in the family, you have to--
we got a $2 million housing project going, up in Federal.
I: And you're doing this?
S: Yes. Right along on the--- ----
I: That's great. Now how long, how long have you been in the con-
struction business, regular, full-time, I mean?
S: Well, I have been in the construction business ever since a64.
But I was working about by the hour for somebody else. And when
I started to school and began to learn a little something--see what
12
I was doing--it was v----up a treasury for somebody else.
I decided to try it on my own 6w a little bit. And it works--
just get out and go to work.
I: You know, I have observed you and knowing you personally and all.
And does t4 seem"- you have some kind of knack about a
business work and construction work you do beautiful work.
You just have to do or you wouldn't be this successful, right?
S: We started two $50,000 houses and they both sold before we got
them, well what we call Itet, dried in. We are getting some
more started--we didn't think they would sell that fast. i //y r'//,d/ /i
I: That's great. Do you have any advice you would give to other
people who want to start a business of their own?
A of it
S: Well, I think there is plenty'out there for anybody that wants
it. It's a lot of hard work.
I: You just got to go after it.
S: Spend our money right.
I: That certainly is an important consideration. And I certainly
congratulate you on your success because I know that everybody
in the community admires you. Do you think your civic activities--
you know, helping out in the clubs, in church, and in school
and around like this, do you think this sort of ties in with
your duties and helps you make it.
S: There is no doubt in my mind that the church does. Without
the church, I don't think I could even survive ,Before I joined
L,D ./i
this church, ZE St Church, I was only making about $4,000 a year.
And from, right after I joined the church I was up to $30,000.
There is no doubt in my mind that itrwasn't a big help.
13
I: So you would advise anybody else to take an interest in the
church and in the community and so forth?
S: Yes, and I pay my tithings.
I: Well; that's wonderful. You know I have heard people say that
you can't give the Lord anything that he gives it back to you,
do you believe this?
S: I do. I know one week my tithing was $70. The next week I
come in with$2500. There is no doubt in my mind that the
church has a part in:-it. If you take the tithing nicely you're
going to get it back one way or another.
I: You think you prosper if you tithe?
s5
S: Yes, right.
I: Well, that is certainly interesting.
S: Especially with the right church.
I: Well, I, uh, wanted to ask you about--I want to ask you a little
bit about the school. And do you think the school--do you think
everythhg about to be normal now as far as the schools are con-
cerned?
S: Well, I think that, well, this looking at the children is not
going to be easy. But I think if the parents will stay of it--
children were allowed to live together. Because I don't tell
my children what to do when they get to school. I think that
most of this stuff that happened in the school starts at home.
I: You think they might hear prejudice remarks at home?
S: At home--then they go to school and think they can do the same
thing and it don't work--it starts trouble.
14
I: Yourchurch is an integrated church, isn't it. I mean it
doesn't make any difference at all te C--< race.
Well, that is certainly very interesting. Do you know how
long your church has been established in this county--I under-
stand they were here a long time ago and then. am I correct
on that?
S: Well, I don't know. I do know when they first come into the
county--you know since I got big enough to know anything about
C/o wJ
the church. When they put out a trailer right near the/niversity
in Pembroke. And then they built a church there or seminary
building.
I: About how long ago was that?
S: That's been ^) years ago now. And then they started branching
off from that. They go a branch in Magnolia over near Lumberton.
And they got one in Carmont, all in Restsson County.
I: Well, in this county many people are Baptist and many people are
Methodist and so on. When your church came in, was it coming in
new--you told me that, 10 years ago. But do you think it had
to encounter prejudice and overcome certain difficulties along
these lines? (
S: Yes, there is still a lot of prejudice But our churches have 'l
plenty of money and they spend it where it is needed, where it
can do people good. They have the seminary program which goes
to the school on Mondayli'pick# up the students and take them
to church and they teach them a couple of hours and then they are
out and play games and flings like this,and lot a people don't
particularly like that because other churches don't have the
15
program.
I: Your church believes in a well-rounded program, doesn't it?
S: Yes, sports and all kinds of games, keep children busy and keep
them out of trouble. /r rc1l
I: Well, I think this is a good idea, too. Well, I know your
church will continue t grow and I believe there's room for
all the durches. It's very sad when you do encounter prejudice
or this sort of thing. People are pretty set in their ways,
I guess. And, you were kind enough to talk to me on this
program and I know our listeners will be interested but do
you have to cut this short to go somewhere?
S: Well, I have a community Jaycee meeting at Q8. && oc/C,
I: Well, I know how busy you are. So maybe we'd better suspend
it here if you think--what time did you have to go? Do you
have the time? Could we finish it after you come back?
S: Well, we could probably finish it now, we Hake 30 minutes.
I: Well, good. Are there any particular things you wsuad-like
to talk about? Anything--you know--anything on your heart,
on your mind, you would like to talk about.
S: I can't think of nothing. There are a lot of things I would
like to talk about.
I: Well, we'll talk about anything you want to talk about. We're
interested .in all phases of the lives f our people. And we
leave the door open and we uh.... --------- anything that interests
you, well we'll ....
S: Well, there's a lot of things that well like children that really
16
needs a education because I can see where I could have been 1
way ahead in life if I would have had an education. I didn't
have the chance of being educated, didn't get to go to school.
I: And do you think this is one of the reasons you have always
been so interested in trying to help other people? Because
you knew it could be rough.
S: Yeh, yeh, s-'-'-5-- school adult education still going
in the community. So many people in the community you know
can't read or write--s ems like you have trouble getting d2M-
Mv-
I: Wonder why this is.
i,')
S: Well, they go out and if they can't get educated one night, they
want to call it off. It takes about 25 yearyto get educated.
I: Well, it certainly takes a long time in formal school or adult
education. Uh, do you think people are increasing in numbers
t'V
and that they are taking more interest cn adult education?
S: Well, this Rbertsen Tech--they are building a school now 4wl
I think which has always had a lot of students. And they are
doing a good job i.zX. %Jd h I think that people who didn't
finish high school, something like that--want to take up a
trade that they're -- V seems like they get
interest in it, because you can go to school and get a college
rrivuin' A4Ld $O
education and still not do nothing but push a pencil.
I: That's right. And you can't get a job pushing a pencil every-
where.
S: Well, I've got one of my brothers working with me --he can't
even sign his name. He makes $8,000 a year, but he knows
17
how to do carpenter work.
I: Right. But if he had an education he could even make more than
that now Bamns_his ability. Well, then you believe ea school
ought to teach more than just reading and writing--ought to
teach more practical things?
S: I feel like they should have a work shop--give somebody the
chance to really get the feel of--I would say, teach them a trade.
You know a lot of times I have heard your gavnees ,ooout
-C&j2 S-fJ .
----, you shouldn't tell a child 9 or 8 years old
what he's going to be the rest of his life.
I: Let the child decide.
S: -----------Sir?
I: Let the child decide.
5C? iC J&/ /IL cP -_ icc /
S: t would be a lot of time wasted walking the streets trying to
make up their mind.
I: Uh, hum. And, uh, there's much then that could be done in
the schools along these lines, isn't there?
S: I would think so.
I: Not everybody is going to college--not everybody wants to be a
teacher or preacher or anything like this, and uh, if the school
could accommodate these students in these trades as well as
teach them the arts, and other related things, this would be
a great step in the right direction you think?
S: Thht--t1a wh I would 'think o,
I: Do you have anything else you would like to talk about or
would you like to talk about the school, too?
18
S: Well we were talking about a few minutes ago, daycare center,
that is one of important things that I know of in a community
for children. Take Jimmie Dean when he started to school,
he could read and write Itff.ef.
I: Uh, huh, You are talking your ---Lte---baby.
S: He learned--we just didn't have a babysitter. We had two
ha l
teachers and one of them has a master's degree.
I: Uh, huh, and the community went together and hired this
lady with the master's degree to take care the children
t e-t ake-are- f-the-chil-drena She teaches all those--she
teaches at the daycare center.
S: She teaches at the daycare center.
I: Well, that's great--they don't just play and sit around--they'Y
learn something useful. And has Jimmie started to school yet?
S: Yes, this will be his second year.
I: And when he started, do you think this gave him a good start
ahead.
S: Yeh, he come home the second day he went to school told me
I had already put him in the smartpies.
-5-
I: That's great. That sounded like Jimnzat Uh, in other words, he
had an advantage he wouldn't have had if it hadn't been for the
daycare center.
A -4
S: Well, I bht a brother that lives next door--his little boy has
been in the first grade two years. He didn't get a chance--they
didn't send him to the daycare center; I think it would have
helped him, a lot.
I: Do you think there is a possibility you might get other grants
or help towards the daycare center?
19
S: Well, we,uh, got some grants, well, it's not a grant, it's
an aid from the state and the edqi They give us $25 000
a year--of course you re going to have to raise 4% of that.
I: Uh, hum. You've got to raise 12 and they make it out to 100l C
Well, that's great. Because I know when you started, you
shouldered the whole thing yourself and I mean, the community.
And I know you were very active in this and that you have always
believed in this idea to give the children some where to go
and enable the parents to work and I'm certainly glad it's working
out as well as it is. And I'm sure it will continue to grow.
How about the other activities that the community action center?
Do you know how they're making out in other things?
S: Well, they've been successful this year in some of their projects.
I know they had, uh, some funds to buy fertilizer, for people
in the community that normally is welfare people. They give them
fertilize and seed to plant their garden. About three weeks
after they give them the seed and fertilize, tan they pass out
hoes to everybody. And, most of them got their stuff gathered
in the freezer for the winter.
I: Oh, that's great.
S: So it's aging to be a big help.
I: And you see the community action center, uh, as a place for
training as well as for other things, don--t.you?.:
S: Yes, that's right.
I: You're making it useful--you're making it work. Do you think this
is true? --of all the community action centers that they will work
20
if people make them work or really get behind them.
S: Well, they got to have a little push.
I: Because I know some areas that haven't--they don't seem t be
as successful as your seem. Uh, and sometimes, it does take
a little extra loving care, you know.
S: Well, people handing the money out--sometimes brey have to stand
on their toes and demand it. Because it's just like politics--
you have to really get in their and fight for your community.
I: Right.
S: Or you don't get your part.
I: And make sure it's spent in the right way.
S: :That's right.
I: Well, this is true in so many things, I guess. And, uh, your
action in politics, are you democrat or republican or .
You vote as your conscience guides you according to this.
S: WRll, I have been voting democrat; I don't know this year I've
been thinking about it and still thinking. I really haven't
decided.
I: Well, of course, I am asking you a personalmatter there. I
shouldn't, maybe I shouldn't ask you that anyway. But I think
that you gave me a good answer. Are people in your community
becoming more interested in registering and voting no matter who
they vote for?
S: Yeh, because, the younger children is educated, getting educated.
I think there are two things different, from what my mother and
daddy did. Most of the Lumbee Indians has always felt like when
somebody come around wanting them to vote for him--that was it.
When you voted for him you wouldn't--you wouldn't ever see him
21
anymore till he got ready to be elected again. Then he would
come by and tell you the same ole tale again.
I: And never fulfill any of the things.
S: Yeh, the younger ones is set up things a little different now.
You elected somebody that you know--somebody that you see
everything--you know what kind of people you're getting.
I know that wouldn't work in president and governor but in
some of
local politics we're going to start electing'our own people7-
balance the thing up a little bit.
I: I want to ask you a question--don't answer if you don't want to,
just say, you know. But I wanted to ask you about, you know,
when you were getting the bank established. I know you have
always felt the Indian people needed a bank of their own and
this is the first Indian bank in the United States.
S: That's right.
I: And this helps in more ways than one, doesn't it?
S: It certainly does.
I: And do you think the complications that you're giving other
banks makes them operate a little bit better.
S: Yeh, because there's a couple a banks in the community. Just
as quick as we got the Lumbee Bank chartered, then they tdey
began to hire Lumbee Indians to work in their banks, try to
keep the people. But it's not working--most Lumbees still doing
business in the Linmbee Bank
I: You think they waited a little too late?
S: They did; they certainly did.
22
I: Well, this is a move that--to give us a economic wage, would you
say?
S: Yeh, when you walk in a bank, and you're a stockholder in it,
it just makes you feel like you're at .home. If you want money,
you know you're going to get it, because it's yours.
I: Right. and uh..
S: But you're going to have to pay it back.
I: i)\J'm certainly glad to see the bank doing as well as it its--there's
a sign along the highway, you know it's ^9S an arrow pointed straight
up and it says: "The Lumbee Bank. We are on our way up."
S: That's right.
I: I like it
S: It's beautiful.
I: I heard some complaints. I heard one complaint recently about the
funds at Pembroke State University, which was former Pembroke
State College for Indians. The Indians, you know, were-the ones that
LC- A
chartered that university. But when they, the University, which
spends millions of dollars a'year. I think that they finally put
$50,000 in the Ltmbee Bank and I wonder how you stockholders feel
about this. Of course, this is tr'y a drop in the bucket.
'1I
S: We feel terrible.
I: Do you feel like they ought to at least split it in half?
S: Yeh, well. .
I: Or put it all there if possible, but.
S: I am on the board down there at that Lumbee Region Development.
WeI6 got $83,000 last year. First thing they done is stuck it in
23
First Union Bank. When I found out about it, it come out--we
got our own bank and the people that fi-ed t said that we
can but you know, it is a minority bank in the community that
the money should be put in it. We finally go it transferred
had to go back to Atlanta--take some time and & paper work
but it was done.
I: And Mr. Collins, how do you feel about, uh, I haven't talked to
many people, if anybody about the Lumbee Recreation Center. Some
of the people, some of the Lumbee Indians are demanding that--
uh, they've been demonstrating, I understand: wanting something
like LRDA to pay for, you know, the bed off the Lumbee Recreation
Center. And allow, uh, you know all the people an opportunity to
use it. What do you think about that--do you know of anything about
the problems? I don't know if this is possible at all.
S: I know. I was, they've been trying to get me to join, you know. And
/C
I just haven't done it, which I don't know anything about the recreation
LC
/enter and its operation.
I: Would it make you happier to see it open to all the Indian kids and
old people, too whether they had money or not? Of course you know. ..
24
SIDE TWO
I: This is Tape 9, Side two, continuing the interview with Mr.
Redell Collins of Shanon, North Carolina. Mr. Collins we
A
had just mentioned something about the Lumbee Recreation Center)
and uh, I believe you said you weren't too familiar with the
problems over there at this time. Uh, is there anything else
you would like to add to this tape? Because our friends, we've
got friends all over the United States now and this is something
that we couldn't claim to have 25 years ago to say. Are you
happy that people are taking a great interest in our people?
S: Yes, I sure is. Because if somebody hadn't taken interest, I
don't would have survived you know, as well as we have, we could
have lived probably just as long by the county or state feeding?-
But by somebody helping us a little bit and helping us see things
a little different. I know there was a VISTA worker come from
ave k*,',Nvc
New York dawn iu--th-eouty got us interested in politics one
time. She stayed down for the summer. Well, I think toirs give
us a big kick. It finally got us interested in politics. She
got the people in the community registered. And, uh.
I: ) You think our people are gi Ig to play the grand ole' game of
politics then, which is a good thing because this is the way
America operates on politics. And, we are taking part in self-
government and all these things. Were you happy to hear about
us having a delegate from both parties to go to the national con-
ventions this time?
25
S: Yeh, I was reading the Federal Paper and Mr. Dial was the first
one to go, which I.
I: Mr. Adolf Dial.
S: Mr. Adolf Dial. I was one of the guys that helped get him seated.
As I was reading the paper the other day, Friday I believe it was--
I looked in the Republican party--his brother-in-law was going.
(Laugh) Looks like they're keeping it in the family.
I: (Laugh) Well, at least we've got two Lumbees---------------
S: They're smart boyY, e sa .
I: Yes, this is encouraging to me, too. But do you think, it pow
in the past few years the Methodist Church gave I believe about
$30,000--about $30,000 grant to minority groups in Robertson
County to help them get registered and to teach them civics
about, you know, about civic matters abaut politics and other things.
Do you think this is something that is really worth while?
S: Yeh, I think the Methodist Church has been a big help. They got
what you call, a, I don't know what the name of the building is
in Lumberton but Mr. Bob Mangum is in charge of it. He was down,
Friday night was a week ago, showed us a film they had made up'iA
myertsn County7-what was going on, the poor people that needed
help. I looked and one of the last pictures in there was Jimmy
I_
Dean in the Daycare enter. Uh, I think they're doing a good job.
(A / /Z
I: And a lot of changes have taken place in the foard of /lectioni, haven't
they?
S: They certainly have.
I: I know this time last year, I imagine about this time last year,
wasn't it? Out of 39 registrars in the county, only was it two
26
who were Indians and one black and two Indians?
S: Two Lumbees and one Negro.
I: And now we have a man who is the head of the Board of Elections.
S: And he is a Republican.
I: That's right.
S: Instead of a Democrat.
I: And this caused quite a stir and they threw him out but uh, they had
to put him back tia because if they hadn't they would have been breaking
A
the wrong rules. And Raleigh stood by him or stood by the rules any-
way, in this instance. But, this was so blatant, you know when they
to get rid of a man because he's of another party and another race.
A to be
And it was so obvious. And didn't nobodylseemed embarrassed about
it after they did that. Uh..
S: Especially the Lumbees. They were tickled to death.
I: Well, you think we're seeing a new day then?
S: Yeh, it's changing.
I: Do you think it will keep changing?
S: I think so because our people is qualified for just about any position
in county government or state government. Abd, if a person's qualified
for the job, you can't keep him down just because they happen to be a
Liimbee, I don't think.
I: Well, that's one thing--our people have the reputation for being hard
workers and I've heard it rumored that because we have such tremendous
of labor here, goolabor. This is why the Goodrich Footwear Plant
came here.
S: Well, I've been married 17 years and I took my first vacation this year,
27
how
We always said that Indians don't know to do nothing but work.
Sometimes I believe it.
I: We had to do it, haven't we?
S: We had to do it. But we're getting over the hump now.
I: Right. Do you think we're better off by not being under the
Bureau of Indian Affairs?
S: I don't want to be under that.
I: We want to be kept in there--so, so on. At least we have a chance
to have a say in our destiny.
S: That's right.
I: And control i ". own property.
S: Well, that's fine for people o wants to be on it. But I think in
Rbr n County--I don't think no Lumbees in their right mind would
want to be under the government.
I: Especially under the controlfr c/ & / 0 re 'r'
S: Nd, not the Indian affairs.
I: If the government wants to give us help, and we do need help in so
many areas _do you think the way the government ought to handle
the situation like that is put their help in the hands of the Indians
themselves and let them administer it.
S: Let them use it. One that been --------- --when we did get
money to help the Indians. When it got to us, it was' ed up.
I: It was used up in making studies and that sort of thing, wasn't it?
S: It was the same way in the iverty program when they first started it.
When the money got down to the people it would do the most good, it
had been used up. So they didn't nothing but information to hand out.
I: And that didn't help very much did it?
28
S : ? a (hu nNg y (? ) .. r t 'il.,
I: And, do you think the poverty program has goaed that many of the
problems it had originally?
S: I think it has because it started out as tri-county--here in Robertson
County it did--it was tri-county program, which I think they named it
right. They was trying--though they didn't know a whole lot.
But they ered as they went along and I think they have 3anaed a
lot.
I: W11, it certainly was a new program and it took it &hile to get
on its feet, but do you think it's going all right now?
S: Ours is, yes, in our community. I don't every go to the other
communities to their meetings, and I don't know.
I: Well, do you have any advice you would give to other people who
are operating community action programs that might be of help?
S: Well, it's something that a person really have to live in a com-
munity tha he-_ y need help and want to get out and loan a
helping hand.
I: In other words, they would have to take p personal interest in it,
no matter what the government does?
S: Yeh.
I: And see that it is administered fairly and so on?
-5
S: W& have a boy come from--he lived in Cherryville, North Carolina
and he was going to school at the University of North Carolina, in
Rqleigh. And he come down and lived with us through the summer--we
set him up in a house of my brother's, And he worked for us during
the summer and a little politics and things like thisand he was a
lot of help. You've met Pete Blenk?
29
I: Uh, huh.
S: He helped us out.
I: Well, the reason, one of the reasons our people are notso well off
could this have anything to do with the so-called Industrial
Revolution? You know, it was a time when many things were done
on e farm by hand that aren't done by hand anymore.
S: Well, I would say ten, fifteen years ago, that was all you could
do. You'd go to a plant--they wouldn't hire you because you were
a Liimbee. And you would have to work on the farm--some of the people
left and went North to New York, Baltimore, and places like that.
Some of them would stay on the farm b they finally got where they
could get a job and-a-mal, something like this and took advantage of
it. Aid the people running these plants seeing now that Indians
will c as much as work as two or three whites. And the Indians ,/6
just aboutApushg the rest of them out.
I: Yeh, well, I guess maybe this is because we know when we get a chance
if we don't take advantage of it, this might be the only chance we'll
ever get.
S: Right, we know when we get a job we'll going to work and we're going
to do our best. We're going to have to show the other guy up.
I: That's certainly an astute observation.
S: I know in this part of the county--well, Robert-sen and Cumberland County
Indians just about took over the construction work. $They can really get
out there and work.
I: They do good work.
S: They do good work--that means a lot. All Indians wantrto be boss.
I: (Laugh)
30
S: Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.
I: (Laugh) Well, I guess everybody else has that kind of problem.
Do you think it's a good thing to be ambitious and to. ?
S: It certainly does.
I: I was hoping--I am hoping that whatever happens we will get the
full use of theLumbee Recreation Center, you know about how large
it is and the kind of games and other facilities it has, don't you?
S: Yeh, we rented the Recreation Center for two days--Ldmbee Homecoming,
cost us $500 a day. And, uh,pput on a big parade, gospel singing
and this kind of stuff for two days. I got to learn a little bit
about--we had a golf tournament.
I: Do you think this is a good thing? This is the third year we've done
it, isn't it?
S: Yeh.
I: Do you think it's a good thing for us all to come together or many of
us to come together each year in a homecoming and spad some time together.
S: Yeh, you get to see a lot of your old friends, which in my end of it,
I was working so then drinks and this kind of stuff, trying to pay $500
a day. I really didn't get to meet as many people as I would have liked
to.
I: I don't know whether you had the chance to see how many people were out
,( e to
or to make any estimate aslthat, but according to your estimate or your
A
opinion, how do you think the numbers compared with the other two years.
I mean, do you think we had a bigger crowd?
S: I think it increased a little this season. We've always had big crowds
for the parade.
I: Do you have any estimate as to how many people attended homecoming this
year?
31
S: No, not right off. Uh, we had a, everand4-Nolans would know, S? xP
would -bpecause -h was-hp--z-p rtn-M.
I: He probably counted the ----- didn't he?
S: I think they counted the cars, estimated on their own.
I: In other words, it's increasing in interest, it's not falling back
here.
S: It ain't falling back. We watched most of the businessmen in
the Carolinas that had business to burn their footCoft, some of
them to demonstrate some of the stuff in the parade. Like some
of them in furniture business, car lsiness, .
I: Uh, do you have any ideas, any other ideas we could talk about, some
of the things we might do to help ourselves?
S: Well, it's like I said a while ago, it is sometlng that a person has
to really see where they can get ahead by getting out and working.
I know I was first married I was working somebody else, I was working
days a week at night. I really worked too hard, but I had to-to
survive. Had a new home and a new automobile that had to be paid for.
I still wasn't making no money. I had to do something desperate. I
think a person get out and work, they do all right.
I: Do you, now that you have your own business, do you think you work
as hard now as you did when you didn't have?
S: I work harder.
I: But you get a better showing for that too, don't you?
S: Yeh, that's right.
I: There's a great deal of satisfaction in doing something for yourself
too, isn't it?
32
S: To me, it's just like art. work, when I build a house, I get my
truck and start driving off, I always look black and see how it looks,
trying to give myself a pat on the back. We build some $50,000 houses.
It's just like art work--most of them you have to get out and build
them with you pocket knife, because you don't know 4ae, cut on it.
I: It has to be very precise and very accurate, doesn't it?
071 "
S: It has got to te right.
I: So that calls for some kind of training and some of ths on-job
training starting.
S: Yes, it's got to be skilled work.
I' Well, your father, did you work some with him in this construction
business?
S: No, we done the farming and he done the construction work.
I: Well, you've done, you do, in addition to all the buildings you do,
by the way did you lay these bricks?
S: No, I don't do brick work.
I: You didn't lay the brick but you worked along with them.
S: I supervised b '
I: That's important. I have noticed cabinets and things like this--
very--you know require. a very high skill in handling tools and making
calculations and all this sort of thing. And anybodh0 t can make
cabinets for a kitchen like you make and the homes they build just
has to turn out fine, too.
the
S: Yes. You've got to know 'stuff and be able to supervise it. You know,
you've got to--if you've got a man doing something and not doing it
right, you've got to show him how. You don't run him off, just show
him how.
33
I: And of course you have to know the stuff or you can't show him how.
S: That's right, that's right.
I: And your tools are very important, the right tools, do you think?
S: Yeh, you've got to have a lot of tools, have tools for every job.
But there's a trick to it, you've got to learn how to get by with
what you've got.
I: Well now when you have to say take on a job, I have heard of several
people trying, uh, you know to get started and they would bid too low.
When they ended up, they Sc-1d ceee out either in debt or they hadn't
made anything. This is another important consideration, isn't it?
S: Yeh, when you figure a job, if you don't know how, you needn't ask
nobody, because they wJthi f'tell you the truth. So it might pay to
start off on a small item, then if you could--if you do a small one,
you can figure it up in square footage basis and then you could tell
how you could come out on a big one. The same-kind of price it.
I: Well, Mr. Collins this certainly has been an interesting interview.
And I know you've given a lot of encouragement to other people. And
I certainly appreciate your talking with me. And I am really proud of
this tapeA I appreciate this because you are one of the people I have
always admired you, I .don't just admire you, I love you. And I think
this is what==one thing we have among our people--we have some of it
left and that's love and appreciation and do you have anything else
you would like to add before we .?
S: No, it was an honor to me to be able to be interviewed.
I: Well, I'm honored that you allowed me to interview you. And these will
be placed in libraries all over. So, here's hoping that the program will
be of great benefit and I'm sure it will and I'm sure you added much to
it and I certainly thank you.
34
I: He's in Viet Nam right now.
Song follows:
Pardon me if I'm sentimental when we say goodbye.
Don't be angry with me, should I cry.
When you're gone, I dream a little dream of days gone by.
Now and then there's a fool such as I.
Now and then there's a fool such as I am over you.
You talk me how to love and now you say that we are through.
I'm a fool but I love you dear until the day I die.
Now and then there's a fool such as I.
I: Now here is one we did together, which is a real folk song, I think;
"Take this Hammer."
Song: Now take this hammer and carry it to the captain
Take this hammer and carry it to the captain
Take this hammer and carry it to the captain
Tell him I'm gone--Lord, Lord,--tell him I'm gone.
If he asked you was I running
If he asked you, Lord was I running
If he asked you was I running,
Tell him I was flying, Lord, Lord, tell him I was flying
Tell him I was flying, Lord, Lord, tell him I was flying
I: Here is a little part of the program I presented in Raleigh, North
Carolina earlier this year, on, well, it's self-explanatory. I'll
just play the recording.
Recording:
I am grateful for being invited here in Raleigh today to take part in
35
this very worthwhile endeavor designed for the specific purpose
of promoting human understanding. May the great spirit richly
bless these and like efforts throughout the world. The theme of
universal brotherhood is one that cannot be overstressed, for it
is utterly impossible for one to despise or look down upon those
whom we truly understand. I am happy to present to you today, as
my contribution to this endeavor this program on Lumbee music.
The Lumbee Indians, like other Indian groups throughout North,
South, and Central American have always and still are, they have
always been and still are conservationist-minded people. They
feel that wastefulness is sinful and wrong. For a long time now
American Indians have been mourning against the wrongful destruction
against nature's resources and warning that nature has a very delicate
balance, indeed and when this natural balance is thrown out of
proportion, dire effects is inevitably the result. That's what
this first song is about men--it's sort of a "told you so" kind
of song but we hope you will excuse it, nonetheless.
SONG:
I told them not to search for gold,
For if they did the eagle would die,
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen
They didn't listen. .to me.
I told them if the eagle died,
That there would be no keeper of the land,
They wouldn't listen,
They didn't listen
They didn't listen. to me.
36
And if there were no keeper of the land,
She would come and soothe the lucas skies,
They wouldn't listen,
They didn't listen,
They didn't Jisten to me,
And if they polluted the skies,
That would have to move into the sea.
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen to me.
I Well, there you have a portion of a program I presented in
Raleigh, North Carolina some time ago. This is the way the
program started out and we talked about different Indian songs.
Not all Lumbee songs, of course, but all of them were Indian
songs.
SONG: FOLLOWS
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen, to you,
They didn't listen,
They didn't listen, .
END
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