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Group Title: Interview with Carl Feiss
Title: Interview with Carl Feiss (1907 - Oct. 10, 1997 )
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00006974/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Carl Feiss (1907 - Oct. 10, 1997 )
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: April 1973
 Notes
Abstract: Interview with Carl Feiss.
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
Biographical: Carl L. Feiss was born June 18, 1907 in Cleveland, OH. He earned his fine arts degree from the University of Pennsylvania in 1931. He was an architect and urban planner who helped create the Federal Historic Preservation Act of 1966, and the National Register of Historic Places; October 18. Feiss was also credited with elevating urban planning to a distinct discipline, and had aided in the historic preservation of Annapolis, MD., Alexandria, VA, Charleston, SC, and Savannah, GA. He was director of the housing and planning division of the Columbia University School of Architecture before moving on to head the Denver planning commission. In 1950, Feiss came to Washington as chief planner for what was then called "slum clearance" and running programs that would later become the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Next, he practiced as an independent consultant before returning to teach at the University of Florida. While on the faculty at UF, Feiss headed the Urban Development Center, was the early organizer of the Urban and Regional Planning Program and taught architecture and planning until his retirement as Professor Emeritus in 1987. Feiss passed away October 10, 1997 at the age of 90 and his wife, Alleen, passed away in 2000. They had two daughters, both of whom had long careers in planning. Caroline Feiss is writing a biography of her father. ( Biography from UFF: http://www.uff.ufl.edu/scholarships/ScholarshipInfo.asp?ScholarshipFund=012385 )
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00006974
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Miscellaneous' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: MISC 3

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
        Page 1
        Page 2
        Page 3
        Page 4
        Page 5
        Page 6
        Page 7
        Page 8
        Page 9
        Page 10
        Page 11
        Page 12
        Page 13
        Page 14
        Page 15
        Page 16
        Page 17
        Page 18
        Page 19
        Page 20
        Page 21
        Page 22
        Page 23
        Page 24
        Page 25
Full Text



COPYRIGHT NOTICE


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limts the amount of material that may be
used.

For all other permissions and requests, contact the
SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida










SU.F. 16A

Monologue: Blair Reeves

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'' a: WhatK we-wat to do today is review the progrejeof the 1966

historic preservation legislation how it got started, and the

reasons why itsi the the way it is, and I am going to add to

that some comments to the way it should have been and what still

needs to be done to improve it. I take a substantial part of

the responsibility for the originating of this legislation ulh

because in 1965 a good friend of mine, Lawrence Henderson, who is

an extremely well-to-do man who has made his money selling jet

fighter planes to sheiks in the Arabian Peninsula and to the-z

dictators in Latin America. He use to fly them over himself

and sell them right out of the stable h lived on Cape Cod.

His mother lived on Cape Cod at the time and she'd now dead and

uh he got interested in the preservation of historic buildings

on the Cape, particularly what had been

happening in Hiannis and places of this kind, and we were talking

this over one time over drinks and I said what's neededis some
/
real genuine federal legislation across the board uon historic

preservation. In which all federal agencies were involved in

one way or another as they are in Great Britain, in France, the

Netherlands, and well, actually all over Europe,so u he had a

good friend, a man whom I knew alsowh4-sTBt Congressman Abbott

Raines of Alabama, Congressman Raines was really the whip in the

Housing Subcommittee of the HousetBanrand Currency Committee,
1t0 i5
a very intelligent and fine man,Vrigh now retired, and who had

been a Congressman for a good many years and highly respected in










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both Houses on the Hill, a very liberal Democrat, and he and

Congrazsa^ Senator John Sparkman were close friends and Sparkman

is the Chairman of the Senate Banking and Currency Committee

and Chairman of the Subcommittee on Housing of that committee,

also. So hereva- the two top men in the Banking and Currency

Committee both close together, and both of them friends of both

Mr. Henderson and myselfoso we went to >them particularly Er-thl,

first'twa _Congressman Raines said, "Look, it's about time that

something is done on historic preservation to h we'd like to

cook up some legislationfand the sensible place to put it would

be to put it where a powerful agency of government with substantial

grant-Ig grant powers could make use of such legislation for

preservation purposes in central cities. Specifically the urban

renewal program in the what was at that time still Housing and

Home Finance Agency now become HUD. And Congressman Raines

liked this idea very much so we talked about this a good deal

and with Gordon Grayto Gordon Gray of the National Trust u< who

is a member of the top Presidential Advisory Committee to the

Department of Defense and who had been a--who was the third

president of the National--third chairman of the board of

trustees of the National Trust and, a+s"v serving aas a

trustee on the National Trust at the time and _,\ did up

to this last year when I was replaced unfortunately by the

gentleman on my right. We decided that we would set up a special,


.' c n











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Adi oc committee on preservation and we gave it a fine high

faluting name--"The Special Committee on Historic Preservation

under the auspices of the United States Conference of Mayors.

We got the United States Conference of Mayor's president to

agree to go along with this because anything that Albert Raines

and John Sparkman asked for he would automatically have to do.

And I'm giving you this background because you are going to be

involved in political machinations from time to time and you

might just as well know how to do it. You always go to the top man.

The top man is always looking for his name attached to something

and if his name can be attached to a good cause, he'll buy that

cause whether he knows anything about it or not. And then if he's

a good man he'll learn something about the cause. Arnwe decided

that the important thing to do was to invent a bi-partisan committee

in which the people didn't have to know anything about preservation,

but they could be sold on it so we went to Senator Muskee and uhr"

we went to half a dozen others. We went to Congressman 61-iiJodi ?

of New Jersey whoia4d been a liberal Congressman--a Republican--

there are Xiberal Republicans. Philip Huff who was then governor

of Vermont a very brilliant young man. Raymon Tucker then Mayor

of St. Louis-- his is how we got the Conference of Mayors because
b 12-
he happened to be president of Conference of Mayors and-L s that year.

Gordon Gray and Albert Raines, -pmret TaT ade Albert Graves chairman.

This we all did one evening over at Henderson's house in Georgetown
and hen we were established. The next thin do
and then we were established. The next thingyhe was to get a










U.F. 16A

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_a program and get some money so Henderson and

I cooked up an idea--we went up to Cape to visit his mother at

Chatham. And over a weekend we cooked up a program which included

a couple of meetings in--not in Washington, but one in^Yj, one

in New York and then a trip to Europe. A really well-planned

junket. Where we would take the committee and its wives to visit

preservation programs in England, France, Holland, Denmark, Russia,

and Italy. And we went to the Ford Foundation and

Larry and I went up to the Ford Foundation directly and asked for

50,000 dollars to pay for the cost of this trip and for the publication

of some kind of report that would be coming out of it. IHe'e-g





R: Oh. No, no, no, this was before Schwartz came into the picture.

No, this was president of Ford Foundation at the time I can't

remember his name. He delegated it actually to one of his men

and u we were able to get forty-two thousand dollars which they

could not, they actually were not able to finance--legally finance

the junket but we called it research. And uh-0-PQI then flew

to London and made arrangements for ubthe London and in Paris

and the Netherlands for the trip and r in May 1965, we met

in London at t -one of the very snooty hotels which I could
Jive.
never afford,fnever been able to afford for or since and we

were..we went, visited the British National Trust Officers at

their headquarters in London and then we went on a tour of those

things which I had selected which were somewhat comparable to what











U.F. 16A

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you'd find in this country to be preserved. There was no point

in going to the English cathedrals. There was no point in going to

the great castles, but there was a point in going to many of the

English villages which the British Trust had preserved and to some

of the lesser of the great houses which were preserved, also, we--

like Clayton House, Oxfordshire which is about the same size of

the great houses, as some of our grea houses in this country which

are museum houses and so on. The important thing was not to tv

go at the whole show which would meanjwould be meaningless but rather

to select those things which were most pertinent. Did the same

thing in Paris meeting with the Ministry of Culture there, Minister

of Culture there. We did have a little party at Versailles.

And a few other pleasant things. And went on to Holland where which,

I think, was probably our most useful trip. And we had with us, I've

got a picture of Muskee, in fact, in the restoration area work that

was going on in the Maree in Paris against a wall wit a big,

whitewash sign saying "Yankee Go Home". b -ta-. But we

did have a chance to talk to government officials in each country,

and particularly Holland iCwas useful as I say because there we went

to the Ministry of Culture at Hague where they have placed the

entire Dutch inventory of all historic structures in probably the

most perfect inventor and recording spot I have ever seen. It's

a fire proof building of the outskirts of the Hague and two floors









U.F. 16A

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of this modern office building are devoted to a library and the

storage of records and photographs of everything of every single

structure of any historic merit--thousands of them --all

beautifully catalogued and beautifully drawn every.,,,They've had

an historical American building survey type of inventory made of

every one of these buildings to scale photographs-all colors

recorded, all details inside and out. It's just superb. The

only other place that I've seen anything quite comparable to

this is in Warsaw at the Ministry of Culture there. Well, anyway,
\d ,d -to !etve ?vlen
thp IhebgJl _the group t1ht we left Copenhagen to return to

start work on putting together a report and they went on to Russia,

then to Italy and to organize this document which I was telling

you about and to begin drafts ondlegislation)on ideas for

legislation which are contained in the last chapter which I haven't

had a chance to look at. finding recommendations.

The u group returned about a month later and by this time I set up

an office and had s working on/sections of the book. And

fcht a nd-i the photographic material was being collected, that

in itself was a terrible job because we must have gone through

a hundred thousand pictures and once you get pictures taken by

professionals you have to have them released and you have to pay

something for publication and a number of pictures in here are

those--are some which I took, but for the most part they were

professional and cost us a great deal of time. We had to actually

have three people working as a team on photographic material only.

Well, I won't go intolproduction of the book, but dh we'have drafted
/9 <










U.F. 16A

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the last chapter before the authors had completed the material on

each of these sections and l it became quite clear that the there

was a real cleavage between the Department of Ipterior and the

Housing Home Finance Agency, and the National Trust. There was a

three way cleavage that somehow the other had to be reconciled in

the findings and recommendations of this report and in the drafts

of the legislation which were being prepared. If you've never

lived in Washington, you don't know how odd it is that our/emocratic

government has stayed alive as long as it has. The things that go

on between agencies here is just incredible. It's not a shooting

war, but it's a war of cloak and dagger and it really is something.

Anyway the main strength of the group lay in the support for the Housing
Vc_
and Home Finance Agency and not the Department of Interior. The De-

partment of Interior curiously enough, was the least interested of any

of the federal agencies contacted. Y ne reason--the Department of t--

Interior has always been interested in monuments and in landmarks

and anything lesser than historic monuments and landmarks and I

say historic rather than architectural was considered to be

demeaning. That is it was considered not to be important for preserva-

tion purposes, and anything like a historic district which couldn't

be a museum. i ure-there might be good buildings in it that

could be drawn up in the ,__ HABS, but beyond that the Interior

-y simply was not concerned. On the other hand, the HHFA

looked at it as a possible as an important thing that it could do

because of its popularity, would help it build up its popularity if

there were popular buildings down in the central portion of the










U.F. 16A

Page 8. dib



city that needed help but nno historic preservation structure or

area to be preserved should interfere with the slums' clearance

program, or the public housing program, or any other program

which was already on the books. They took precedence over preserva-

tion. The Interior was extremely jealous of the National Trust

even though, because the National Trust was acquiring some properties

that the Interior thought ought to be acquired as National Historic

Sites or National Monuments. So you've got this kind of interplay

going on all the time. Very politely, but qu"- it was quite something

to watch. And my job and Henderson's job was to try to draft something

that could be acceptable to all three so that we could get something

listed that would make it possible to get a national preservation program

going and if we hadlnef had the wise advice of Congressman Raines who

was a superb diplomat and he really knew how to handle these ig Wfigs

like George Hartsog o- and Gordon Gray, and Bob Weaver of the

HHFA, but he could really do it. We had Weaver in on this sort of thing.

We invited everybody up to a weekend in late March, early April 196--

how did we do that? No, it was the late fall of '65 when the first

drafts of these findings and recommendations had been completed. I

had not actually completed the first drafts, and I worked on them but

they were put into the hands of one of the people who is one of the

staff consultants. And we met at the Hotel Pierre. Cold, windy

weekend with sleet. And again I had never stayed at the Hotel Pierre

before or after. We had sort of royal suites there and4 aines and Muskee

and all of the g Whigs were there. And u`by this time Muskee was

really excited about preservation. I mean he really had gone to town










U.F. 16A

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a it. hat's one of the reasons I may vote for him. And t e we met

on a Saturday afternoon with the first draft of this material and it

was louy. This fellow who had been employed to put the stuff

together-re just didn't know what it was all about. And about half

way through the week meeting, in this private meeting at the hotel,

Phil Huff, the governor of Vermont, got mad and said, "There's nothing

any good, and the guy who put the stuff together was in the room,' 5 /

"this is just the lousiest thing I've ever seen." And he tore right

through like that. We had to have it all finished beeeelsand

ready to go to press by Wednesday of the following week because

everything else was done. All the rest of this document had been

written, edited, and arranged in the format and everything and the

book, the printing had been scheduled at the press and we simply had to

haveVfindings and recommendations ready because if we didn't get h1eget.--

the document out on time, which would be around the 15 of January, we

would be able to get copies into the hands of every congressman and

every senator on the Hill, which is what we were producing this thing

for. So, we just had to get that done. Well, -Ulthe committee

then voted that I would take over and do this. I had a dinner

engagement. It was my sister's birthday, lives in New York and I

was taking her, her husband, and the entire family out to dinner at

a restaurant in town and we had the reservations and we were going

to the theater afterwards and I was dressedVtuxedo. The secretaries are:

taking notes/b the committee, Zis is the way history is made, ladies

and gentlemen, he secretaries were going out themselves and everybody

else was going out and I wastgiving the assignment to write the findings










U.F. 16A

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and recommendations from scratch,so e all the secretaries--there

were three of them--were absolutely in dismay when they were ordered to

stay on and take this thing from me and I was ordered to stay and do it.

Well, I wasn't taking any order to do that. -1 4hbut the trick

was I wasn't going to cancel my whole family out. That was more impor-

tant than the legislation. So, anyway, what we did was arrange for

thewhile I was being dressed, or getting dressed in my tux and everything

else in the secretaries bedrooms I started dictating this thing and I dic-

tated about half of it while I was getting dressed and made arrangements

for the gals to come back at eleven thirty that night after they had been to

whatever parties and theaters that they had been to and I would

finish dictating and we would and they would type everything up and

get it into my hands by seven thirty Sunday morning and I'd supply

the liquor. Of course, the main difficulty was finding anybty to

reproduce this stuff on Sunda nah n a cold, November Sunday morning'.-

And uh-4he- n order to get copies to the committee which was

meeting at ten o'clock on Sunday morningeI e did it. We didn't sleep.

W1-e-ut-ad I came back in my tux and finished dictating and then by

the. time I finished dictating, the first several pages had been typed

up, rough drafted. I could correct them, and nobody else was around

V b' these three gals and me just working on this damn thing. And

by ten o'clock the next morning we had just enough copies to go

to the committee and for me to read. The committee came in.

Some of them had been drinking rather heavilyI hate to say. Of

course, I would say celebrating rather heavily and several of them










U.F. 16A

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were very grumpy. They started making bad noises at each other

even before we got going on the this document. The result was

however, that well, I came to present the facts, present the documents

and Congressman Rains asked if anybody wanted to take time off to

read it. Governor Huff said, "We'll rely on Mr.Vife1 judgement

as long as there's a clear and distinct separation of the functions

of the Housing and Home Finance Agency, the NationalTrust, and the

Department of Interior. Well, I had learned my lesson by this time

that there would have to be)much to my regretbecause the split was

going to be a very difficult thing to manage a has it has proved

to be. Anduhy-4hbut the its put in here very gently. The result

was that they unanimously adopted this chapter without reading it and

uhwe went to press. Now there are two or three very crucial things

to realize growing out of these recommendations which are really

almost verbatim in the final act passed on October 15, 1966. What

we did was, that we distributed a copy of this to every congressman

and senator. We went around to key congressmen and senators and

autographed copies for them. We, then, held special luncheon meetings

in the Senate or the House luncheon rooms. Either Congressman Rains
\)P
or Senator Muskee or somebody else on the committee would getVand

give a nice talk about how important preservation was. And we had

Congress pretty well sold on the whole program and the two pieces of

legislation thatwy presented. By the time the thing rolled around

the debate was relatively small and the laws were passed. Two acts--

one which provided f rwhL.sets up the program for the Secretary of











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Interior and one which is this one and the other one which sets up

the program for the Housing and Home Finance Agency. Now, there's a

very important distinction between the two. And, also, this one JnALci

sets up the National Council on Historic Preservation and the register.

Now, the very important distinctions between these two pieces of

legislation, you've got to remember the distinction between the two

bodies that administer them.. The Housing and Home Finance Agency,

now HUD, is the agency which moves directlyVtoward localities from

their regional offices and area offices now; it does not go through

the state. This was the first great error in this legislation because

the Interior goes through the state liason officers set up by the

Interior law which requires that any funding from the Department
,twc
of Interior be part of the a statewide inventorying and planning

program. And so here you have one agency of the government that

works directly to the State Capital. The other agency working on

preservation going directly to a locality. Now, you must remember

that the major amount of historic material to be saved inthis

country is in central cities, in the hearts of the cities, largely

in the downtown business areas or in the immediate fringe areas

because this is where the old cities were and the old villages were.

And this is where the major destruction occurs. And u it's much

more difficult to preserve structures and areas in central cities

than it is in rural areas or isolated structures in rural areas or.

villages which have tremendous historic merit which may be saved in

central cities anyway. ve've lost recently the stock exchange in
/^











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Chicago and we're losing other buildings there in other of the big

cities. But this program was designed to make it possible for a

strong preservation program to occur at the inter-city level as well

as to make it possible for a statewide program to get underway.

Now, where the difficulb/iVithat there is no meeting between the

two. This you will seeffm-t study of the legislation, both
3nd yoyC
of the 1966 Preservation Bills ,'ti study this document here which
ioe uc<'c
I just discussed becauseywe.a' not able to reconcile this and find a

mechanism which would be comparable so that in a way in

which you could get the preservation programs- of a locality

checked in with the state. The reservations programs of a locality

are administered through the local public agencies, frequently the

housing authorities, sometimes the urban renewal and housing authority

or the urban renewal authorities itself or the mayor and city council. For. instancec

The official preservation program in Charleston, South Carolina has

to be handled through the mayor and city council. The official

preservation program, if there is to be one in Macon would go through

the mayor and city council. Or it could go through the Mid-Georgia

Historical Society which is an official agency which could actually

serve as the local public agency. In Macon, however, it would not

have to report to Atlanta to the state liason officer if it didn't

want to and, on the other hand, if the state liason officer in

Atlanta wished e-d to place any te-plaea-en buildings on the

register, presumablyVhe would have to take the Mid-Georgia Historical

Society's recommendations from its inventory which I helped prepare











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V m it wouldn't have to. It could make its own determinations as to

what structures actually ought to go on the register. Its this

kind of thing that needs toQbene correction and it can be

corrected, but the way the bureaucracies have developed at the present

moment we've got a very unfortunate series of circumstances. Partly,

because the Housing and Home finance Agency has never appointed a

qualified preservation officer at a high level in the Agency itself.

HUD does not have a top preservation man. And for the millions of

dollars that Hud has which could be devoted to preservation work

under the law in central cities, very little of it has actually been

spent for this purpose. VSoe in Savannah, well, there is a HUD

book out, as you've all seen undoubtedly on the preservYYou have

copies of that HUD preservation report?

I: There's some in the library.

B: All right. It may be a little skippy, but it's history anyhow.

From the very beginning, the jealousies arose between the

National Park Service and the National Trust because we recommended

in here that the National Trust receive public funds through -he- Neaen4.e

Pafk Slviee thrULg1 the Department of Interior. V -e- percentage

of grants for preservation thatIVnterior received. For a very

real reason up to that point a National Trust which was chartered

by the Congress)in very much the same wayi tha the Boy Scouts and

the Red Cross were chartered had received absolutely no public funds

and was in very bad financial condition. It was unable to maintain the

properties which it had received through wills and other devices which










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it needed to protect. Even such a fine house as The Shadows on the

Teche in Louisiana which had been a gift to the Trust by its last

owner did not have a sufficient endowment to make it possible to

keep the roof from leaking. And di? tthat's been the case in almost

all of the properties which the Trust had received and it desperately

needed to have federal money so that it could carry out its program

as it had been authorized to do by Congress. Part of the problem from

the trust in this instance was the fact that while there were wealthy

people on the board, they were still alive and Suhthyegso that the

Trust had received no gifts through wil or otherwise and despite

that I had felt as some of the other Trustees did that a gentle bit
Lucrc-tia h0!2V&
of some of the medicine that t h Britiab athiti used to use

would have been useful. Still we weren't able to find the exact

formula for it. The result was te the Trust had to go for public

money and when I presented to the Trust thegi Vstatement to the

Trustees of the Trust even through Gordon Gray was with me on it)

Substantial number of the Trustees objected to the idea of using

public funds, using federal monies, because they didn't want to

be-thoey-eed make it look as though the National Trust was

politically motivatedand the Department of Interior didn't want

the National Trust to have money because it meant that they would have

less to spend of their own. They didn't want any kind of a formula

that would require them to pass out a percentage of whatever their,

the grant was that they would have for h preservationipiogram-

However, the law does require it, as you know, so it was all these










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a
internal bAttles that were going on during the period between the

publication of this book and the hearings which were held o over

the early months of 1966, and a number of us testified before the two

banking and currency committees on the subject of this

material. And we worked with the Congressional Committees in the drafting

of the legislation itself so that Henderson and I were pretty busy

for the. spring, for the whole spring on either preparing redrafts of

legislation or appearing before subcommittees or / committees

in trying to get the preservation legislation through. With Gordon

Gray helping very materially in this work and other members of the

Trust and also people from both the Housing and Home Finance

Agency and from Interior because whether yet they liked it or not,

each one of them had selfish interest as well as selfish personal

interest there were points to be coming and power to be coming to each

of these agencies despite the fact that they had disagreement amongst

themselves. The end result was legislation that accomplished pretty

much what these objectives had in mind. With this one split,

this one major split between the two agencies, unfortunately being

so major that it has been a handicap to the purposes behind the two

pieces of legislation. Primarily the difficulty is, as I stated,

is that the Housing and Home Finance Agency, HUD, never geared up

withechnicians, technical people to do the preservation work. It

should have and it still has not. And there is only one preservation

Qffize-officer in any of the eight regions and that's the Chicago

region, regional office. It's had a good preservation man, upar-










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ticularly interested in downtown commercial-district preservation.

Anad-d-c but there's none in the others. None, for instance,

up here in the Atlanta office and in the area office)Vnewly established

area offices don't either so that when the National Trust or the

National Park Service, for instance, prepares a HABS set of documents

it's very apt not to get to the local public agency that is using

HUD funds for clearance and rehabilitation, restoration, historic

or otherwise in a central city project. The and unless there is a

strong local preservation society as there is in Savannah, for example,

or as there is in Charleston. The local public agency y charged

with the funding of specific projects for renewal are apt not to

know that there are any historic structures exist in any of the project

areas at all because nobody's advised them. And this is the case in

Macon among other places where there !\rc' C a historic

society, but it doesn't communicate with the city officials. And

there are, for instance, in Macon ameng there three project areas in

which there are a number of perfectly beautiful cottage collections,

0O groups, or whatever you want to call them. One, in east icc- -

and two'elsewhere in town which are slated for demolition and clearance,

and which Y ought to be preserved as historic districts.

Now the, this kind of thing we find frequently. And because the

state people don't even know thas that a local public agency of this

kind exists, wouldn't know how to find it if they did know it. Upg/

you have this again, this cleavage between the two, between the programs









U.F. 16A

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and very much to the detriment of any kind of a preservation action

program. Now, in the meantime, the inventorying can be done through

funding from either agency. The HUD manual is very explicit, that

in any historic, in any central city project, historic material must

be checked out and inventoried. That's in the law and it's in the

manual, in the operating manual. It's ignored almost completely by

the local preservation officers, unless they are forced to do so by a his-

toric. Savannah or historic trusY group, simply because if there's

nobody pressuring them locally then they don't know that anything

exists. They're not going out hunting for it. Now, under the HUD

Act, not only can an inventory be made, not only can measured

drawings be made, and as part of project cost but historic structures

that are in jeopardy may be moved at two thirds the cost of a gross

project cost to other areas within the project area or outside, or

historic structures outside may be moved inside, or historic structures

within an area may be moved around in the area, or they may remain in

situ and be restored with HUD funds. The only thing that you can not

do is with HUD funds is move one historic building outside of the

project area or to some other location in the community outside of a

project area. It has to be either in or out; or out or in; and at kll

or around inside. If you need to move them, move them. If you don't

need to move them and they can be preserved, then there're funds for

that also. Now, this is a very important thing and there are an

awful lot of preservation people w don't know that this is the

something that can be done. An Interior canfiot do this. Interior J










U.F. 16A

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laws do not apply to this particular type of activity. Now what

can be done under- one other grant fund. It has a grant,

a fifty-fifty grant program which permits uHa locality to receive up to

$90,000 for the repair-restoration re-doing of any historic structure

of importance which can be, which is then made available for public

use. The Scarborough House in Savannah is a good example. And

the locality has to be, I mean, it can be, the locality can raise

five dollars in which case it would get another five from HUD or it

can raise $50,000, in which case it gets another $50,000. In--oep-

v .wrds. y-a amthz u .y.e get matching if it's declared to be a building

of great historical significance.

I: This is true of the house of Madison.

' Right. Right. Now, uKand quite a bit of money has been spent, has

been handed out by HUD for this purpose. Although A41c/ Lt-Erc v' disdppo/ancCd

a year ago because many preservation people do not know that that fund

is there, because HUD has not had any major public relations program

and because it deals with the local public agency rather than with

any other group directly, information about that fund simply hasn't

gotten around and they were disappointed that they had some leftover

money last year that / hasn't been asked for. and this is

serious because if that goes on any length of time, you don't get a)h/

new appropriation; you get taxed. Now, all of that is in, in this

legislation of '66 and I point this out to you because theresha

been so much emphasis on Interiorswork and all too little emphasis











U.F. 16A

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on the parallel work which is very nitty gritty, very specific)

that HUD could undertake. And most local public agency people

even though this thing is all in HUD Manual--h Manual is that

thick, but who's going to look at it?) all the way through? Most

local public agency people and most local city officials don't

even know that this is there. And most conservation people are going to

preservation meetings all over the country. That is, historic
//vi-'C- iA 0o a re-
preservation people, whichhea been largely run by peopleVworking

on Interior programsand I'm not belittling the importance of the

Interior program) I'm simply saying that there is a I major

program that is not being used adequately, that exists as its

created parallel. Now on the Interior side, and Blair knows as much

or more'a I do about it. The thing that was set up was the National

Council on Historica Preservation which is a bad mixture of public

and private representation appointed by the president. dJ _he

difficulty that we always have in any mixed group of public officials,

federal officials and state and private citizens is that regardless

of what happens, the federal officials always gang up and vote as

a block, even though they are very much opposed to each other in

real life, when it comes to a controversial issue t4e about a

structure) ye'll say that the General Services Administration

wants to demolish, you won't get the head of the Housing and Home

Finance Agency or the head of the Department of Interior contradicting

them. And the result is that you've got difficulties. You always

do. And the dilemma here:is that even though the chairman may be










U.F. 16A

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a non-federal official, well, if the chairman is a non-federal official,

he is considered less important than the federal officials by the

federal officials. The only answer to this dilemma is to have

somebody appointed by the White House as chairman of a group of this

kind and he knocks the heads together, but uthe result is that

while the- the Council which has been very active and has been
?
useful" ,t saved u Culle in New Orleans, no question about it,

from the major highway coming along the waterfront. It saved central

Tv tt recently from the JamesVAriig Bridge which would have impacted

the battery area. It's saved Oberlin Park in Memphis and there are

several other very good actions, very strong actions, that it has

taken. But there are many other lesser actions by merely the use

of federal buildings where it's been extremely weak and this is simply

because the use or misuse of federal/ag a / primarily because B6

it 2r__ f -,this unwritten code between the guys that ran the major

agencies. There should never have been any question about the preser-

vation of the post office in St. Louis, or the preservation or restora-

tion of the Embaradero in San Francisco. This kind of thing is just

is just nonsense. And fat he buildings that have been registered

buildings that have been HABS buildings that just should have, you
/ htvc- / Z h'
know, should just automaticallyVbeen saved by the federal government

and were able to save some things from the outside rather than the inside.

I was able to save personally the Old Customs House in Charleston

because the GSA people came and said, "Look, is there any good architec-










U.F. 16A

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turally in it?" I said, "Oh, it's one of the most important buildings

of its kind. Don't, if you start tearing it down or I will lobby

against you." I happened to be on the Architectural Advisory Committee

at the timef__-sease the question came up, which was done by Mullets

who did Cthie F'-t and- TT t r r igLe the East and West Wings of the

Capitol among others great buildings. NWd, r h so sometimes you

can do things yourself- en they themselves can't get it a-eem

e amongst themselves. I have been rambling here a little bit.

There are a couple of things that I want to say: Within the Interior

itself we were unable to get into the legislation adequately what is

recommended in the dnon page 209 of this document and that is the con-

solidation of federal inventory and programs which would mean that the

consolidation of the register iaed-a HABS I _

in one operating, operating agency. I was taking the stand from the

very beginning on this thing that every building that goes on the
,nd
register should be inventoried, should be drawn up ultimately, that

funds should be researched and drawn in a regular:HABS pattern)part, hiVAc7

HABS i., l for the reason that it isn't worth registering if

it isn't worth recording. And as they go out, that there should

be funding for this from Congress and I urged the HABS and the

Department of Interior several years in a row to request in the t4-

appropriations adequate funding to get started on this on a regular

basis as part of the a p-t of tnh ongoing mechanism the of the-u4ry

theAli BS of a consolidated HABS register programftypiPt-H0ABS1 -

HAktS and ultimately this will com d this is exactly, of course,










U.F. 16A

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what they do in the Netherlands, what they do in France, what they do in

Great Britain, aa exctt done here,so there are a number

of things)a number of recommendations in here that did not get into

the nh-th legislation and still should, in my opinion. And one of

the jobsityou all will have if you are still convinced that it's im-

portant to getjipu f-m legislation uK is to see that to

review the legislation, to review practice, review what you see is

going on invpreservation world, ko see whether or not there aren't

ways of 'g this kind of thing up-to-date. This has not had any

really major updating since it passed in '66 and legislation dies)

rather-e) rather begins to fall apart if it isn't checked out

adequately from time to time. ThereVhad been amendments, but there

had been rather minor ones. The what has happened since this was

written this legislation was put into effect is that the Department

of Transportation has been set up in a much more powerful form than

it was originally and is tied in very strict strongly now. We now

have the Environmental Protection Agency which comes in exoficio and

the Environmental Protection Agency is new as of '69 and the National

Council on Urban Growth is new since 1970 and it also has to be

wrapped in and with the consolidation and reorganization of the

Department of Housing and Urban Development which will take over all

urban programs if the president's recommendations which are supported

even by Democrats for a consolidation of four different agencies goes

through this year or next year. Then, there will be major new re-










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orientation of the preservation effort in those in those federal

agencies which have responsibilities or which should have responsibilities

for the safe-guarding of our historic heritage. Now, that's a very

hasty rundown on these on the how the act got started. It a highly

personal thing. I discovered after a number of years of being in

Washington that's it's quite easy actually to get legislation started.

And sometimes quite easy to get it finished, because it's true uh to

get it through the difficult thing is to get paid for it. Uh, I

never got a penny for any of this. It was simply because there wasn't

anyway I could get paid. And I went pretty near broke after in

1966 with the amount of time when I was spending and could have been

out earning money and doing preservation work. And, I mean literally,

there was no way of paying travel uh or time for consulting work on

something of this kind so that part of the problem we're always up

against in working in reform in reform movement. This is not a perfect

document. This wasn't to begin with. Uh, the situations have

changed materially. You have great experience with the legislation.

Uh, we have great experience in the field and it, I would urge that uh

you keep your eye on what's going on and when you get to begin to

get a few gray hairs, I hope that you will devote your gray hairs to--

well, before you get gray hairs--let's put it this way--before you get

gray hairs, for God's sake get working on up-dating this and improving

it. The laws of nature can't be changed. But damn it,the laws of man

can. So if there's time for questions, I'll be glad to answer them.

I: I can't believe it. You're saving all until later.

R: we haven't much time to do it anyway.










U.F. 16A

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I: That's true.

R: Ha! Ha!

I: We have time for a couple of announcements that are pretty important,

however. I still don't have examination schedules for most of

you. Only two so far have turned in exam schedules. I've got to

have these this week. As a matter of fact, I would like to have

them this afternoon if you can do it. The reason for this is that

I would like to plan a meeting some time next week for this group.

And we'll probably do this at night at my house rather than try to

do it on company time during the day, but with juries and everything

else, this almost becomes imperative so let me have these schedules.

Uh, I want to, also, at the outset the Gainesville Planning Board,

I think it is, is having a little hearing on Wednesday evening to

review the possibility of the Northeast Section becoming an historic

district. They don't know it yet, but that's about what we're to

proprose. Now, if you all can work it into your schedule, I think that

you might find this to be an interesting meeting, particularly

since two members of the class are reporting. Mr. Price and I will

be there to make a few introductory remarks and that's about it. I,

also, need for the people who participated either on the Madison or

the the White Springs measuring team to meet at this same

time tomorrow so that you can bring all you expenses in and we can

figure out...





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