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Title: Interview with Mr. & Mrs. Charles Hunt (September 23, 1971)
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00006841/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Mr. & Mrs. Charles Hunt (September 23, 1971)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: September 23, 1971
 Subjects
Subject: Urban Lumbee
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00006841
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Urban Lumbee' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: UL 35

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
        Page 1
        Page 2
        Page 3
        Page 4
        Page 5
        Page 6
        Page 7
        Page 8
        Page 9
        Page 10
        Page 11
        Page 12
        Page 13
        Page 14
        Page 15
        Page 16
        Page 17
        Page 18
        Page 19
        Page 20
        Page 21
        Page 22
        Page 23
        Page 24
        Page 25
        Page 26
        Page 27
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and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
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the University of Florida










UL 35A
Subject: Misc. Lubees including Mr. and Mrs. Charles Hunt, Reverend J. Dial
and others
Vi Interviewer: Adolph Dial
September 23, 1971

I left he-er
D: I-am-just-at the American Indian Center over on Broadway Street and I am nowAin

the home 6f Mr. Charles Hunt from the Magnolia Lumberton Community and his
living
mother's vi-sti g with him here. Mrs. Mary Roberts Hunt and aiso from the

congregation is Reverend James Dial. What is the name of your church Rev. Dial?

RD:Croes GreeR Baptish Church.

D: West Cross Street Baptisu Church. Is this an all 4Ifjn church?

RD:That's right.

D: !What is the membership of this church?

RD :Around /5.

D: Around 75. How did you get this building? Did you all bmild the building or what?

RD:We bought the building from a Lu4-)rqo.n organization, .. LULtharo. orqan-izr-a*,

D: Is it a pretty good c hurch?

RD:Nice yes.

D: What did it cost?

RD: $10000,

D: $10,000, And did you raise the money among the local Lumbees to pay for it?

RD:That's- right,

D: Uh=uh and you hope some day that you have a ful time pastor there?

RB0We're y-$y looking forward to that.

D: o-u run O, sas to the church?

RD: No*r .we're starting nne. .. i \-. r...

D: Do you, do you, how many whites do you have in that congregation?
or thrce_ o -4ae
RD: We\ave twoNthat are married inAth building ,K some of the folks get, belong 0g 4te

C: D y he an y bl s in th cn

D: Do you have any blacks in the congregation?





2.




RD:No)we have visitors.
vuend
D: Have ViSitor-S < Wir\e5 How long have you been here, ReA. Dial?

RD:About 17 years.

D: About 17 years. And what caused you to come up here? Were you the first in

the society who came?

RD:No I want' I, I came here looking for work.

D: You came here looking for work and when you refer to home, do you refer to this

being home? Or do you refer to Robeson County being home?

RD: Well we always reFexr back to Robeson County.

D: You think (6y might return to Robeson someday?

RD: I seriously doubt I wVll,

D: You doubt you will ever return, why?
rmy
RD: I like it here, and allAwork here, and I have no in+ern4ior 4-e so far,

ir\ odna bafcXl i 4C re.
cdo
D: What kind of work wil1 you do Rev. other than your church work?

RD: I'm a supervisor for a Ibe company -Th o' pouiner. V\
y
D: Seems like everybody I meet, meets in the painting business. And I don't -beive

\, c Cp '. painters so that's one here tonight and one over at the

American dian Center and to we- 4 lots of painters. You all don't woak
ejtnCer
ar the same placeAdo you?

RD: No, You might have met one of the men that works with me at the center, kdon nHO

o -h u oas L- '\'+ but -be g-n -harge though, he doesn't work together not

now, we have.

D: I aet Willie over there, Wille.

RD:Chavas.

D: Yeh
clon'+
RD: N0 we hase ae6 -OOrK. cY>e?-hry .

D: Noaw are they say there's emra about 3,500 to 4,000 people here. How many would





3.



you say were here when you came here what 19 years, ago?

RD: 17 years ago.

D: Seventeen years ago.

RD: I would say someg3re between 1500 200 at the most.

D: And when do you understand most of these people came here?

RD: I'd day from '60, they begin to really come up here, you know, pile up here in `-ba

'61., and '62.
r 41-,0
D: Course a lot of them were here during the war, World War II but did most of 4hem

go back home?

RD: I believe so,Amet quite a few people down there. And in Robeson County 4*
-thy werehere
has told me thatAyou know, eJr- Q. .

D: Do you think that the population here during World War II decreased and then

+54'j-- building up, I mean during Worl d War II it was up and then decreased and then

started building again to where it is.

RD: I would say so.

D: Ms. Brothers, you've spent about how many years here?

B: Five, five years.

D: And of course you consider Robeson home?
5 0e G rckl
B: YeA I do because I don't really have/ home. I many times because part of

-my children is here add the other part in North Cdrolina so I spend past ofAtAme

down there\ up here.

D: hetes see, Rev. Dial you've always lived in Hope County haven't you?

RD; That's right.

D: You're never lived in Robeson?

RD: No.

D: Maybe if he had lived in Robeson he would have changed his mind. What are what

are soq f the immediAate problems you see here among the people, Rev. Bial

as compared with home?

RD: When you say people do you are you refewing to..





4.




D : The Luibee people.

"RD: U .

D: Do you think that, you think the youth here are in prunMe-- more problems here

than they would at home?

RD: No.

D: I's it harder here, is it more difficult to tpese year children here than at home?

RD: Some folis say so but I wouldn't. I wouldn't say so. I think..,
Rob=Son
D: Course they would consider Robeson you knowAand Hope are quite different, I mean

as, far as opportunity's-g-eI think go too, you know.

RD: I would, I would say that we had lots of recreation here. Quite a bit of
ard
recreation for kids here. ZI. a great advantage we have in that is that kids

doesn't havef(tgo, travel far, you, i* doesn't have to drive automobiles and

doesn't have to gave- th4e trouble as much as ye"-woild. If ywi had to take

automobile.

D: Don't tey have a bigger drug problem here though?

RD: Probably, I imagine so but I don't I don't think we have too many of the

Lutbee that participate in the/rug scene. To my knowledge.

D: Yeah.TW-M ,oe. n otier Indian, all Indian churches, 'cept the church you spoke

about.

RD: Not to my knowledge.

D: But you do have some of the Lumbees who attend mixed congregation)don't you? Like

the Church of God or the Holyiness Church and so forth.

RD: That's right.

D: Do theyrquite a few ef them Mrs. .LuY ?
Th7y
H: I think so yes. -4k-have quite a few of them to my knowledge here for the time

live been up here. I'velearned there's quite a few. Have one big church over

in Brooklyn that's white and Indian.

D; Wiite and Ihdian.





5.




: Yes, the Church of God. Ovepy- ibar ,bi Chwrch.,

D: Church of God, about what percent would be IAMian would you say?

: Well I really could' say because I've not attended it that much. You know and

and there two, there two in Brooklyn, not right in the same atea you know. l-UP

XrfA\Oi f S o dJN &S
O a
D: f we have a young bpy here, Milton Hunt who's ten. Milton, what do you think

of Baltimore?

MTH: Well not much of it but it's alright for the time. being,Wh' 1\0-n Coorein
/ o
D: Alright. It s alright fir the time being. That sounds like you want to go back

to Robeson County?

mTTH: Yes.

D: Why?

rTTH: I guess down there you have more room to to play with yourself and do what-you

want to do down there.

D: Well how do you like the schools here?

rfTH: Yes and no.

D: Ho?

'THR: Sometimges it's kind of hard and sometimes it s not.

D: Bo most of the in your classroom you have mostly Indian or white or black boys?

mfrH: Mostly colored children and two white children in the school class.

D: 'estly black, a few whites and a few Indians,is that right?

r(VTH: Yes sir.

D: Is there friction in the school between the race.
Wel (
mrTH: ^A, onee and a while maybe.

D; A as you if you were in California tomorrow ad someone said, "Where is

yourhome?" What would you say?

n\TR: I guess r would say Baltimoref.

D; Why?





6.




R\TH: That s where I was raised ay.

D: What do you consider home Rev. Dial?

RD: I still call North Carolina hoie?

D: Mrs. Hunt?

H: Yes we always aay down home. It seems like we have to say that.

D: And how 'bout you younger Miss Hunt here? What is your first name?

ZH: Zelma.

D: Miss Zelma Hunt. You've been up here how many years?

ZH: +ffteefe .
o3JI
D: Sixteen? And what do you say do you stillANorth Crolina home?
ZH: Yes.
D: You wantto return to North C/rolina?

ZH: Yes.

D: Why? Can't get away from Lumbee land?

ZH: Well it's, yeah I could.

D: But you like it better there?

ZH: Yes.

D: In other words you were b Qn, reared on the farm?

ZH: Yes.

D: Like the wide open spaces? For the same amount of money you'd rather work on the

farm thpn to work in Baltimore?
&oubf-'3-- uMobv
ZH: Well I /___ working onA the farm.

D: But I mean if you, if you were thoughjwould you?

Z1: Yes,.

D: You get the same amount of money would you?AWork here Mrs. Hunt?

IL: Yes.

D: What do you do?

H: I am a . .

D: So you'll' probably return and go to one of them- Rhops one day?





7.




H: Probably will.

D: Mrs. Hunt do you think you can save more money here than at home?

H: No.

D: CLs- l Jiui3 n ? You want to say something Miss May Hunt?

MR: If I had, to ask ye- how could I live up here, why Ie like to live here so well,
a
but you know a person like me, you're handicapped you can't drive. Yu can't

get around, here, I find it more easy for myself. I can visit people more, I can

visit the sick in the hospitals and in the home and go to churches, I don't have

to wait( t ask somebody to take me to church.
Wel,dlo M)_
D:AWy- ye s uld, oh by the way about visiting do you do any visiting here?

MR: Yes.'O.L \o

D:^ ^. tell me about your visiting. Who you, what do you go to see? I mean

what..

SMR:k@wp3I.e, I go, I visit the hospitals and the sick homes and go to church.

D: IVu look forward to going to church on Sunday? Do you have a fjid a midway service

MH;: Yes we do.

D: Wednesday night?

(vfH: We have bible study on Wednesday night and Sunday School and worship service

on Sunday and church service on Sunday night.

D: Ever have a Sinq in like they're having nowf/

"MTH Yes we do we haye sem just like they do down home. Have Lhee tr)gl

revivals.
o+he~r
D: C(tit .... O0 0ou working real hard to get these some, some of

the other people into your church Rev. Dial?

p:; Yes we-4-, we would like very much to have a mixed congregation, it's been all,

you know Lumbee.

D: Why?

RD: Well I think it would help us to learn more about people.





8.



D: But I meant, what I mvRa are you working to get the Lumbees in?

RD: Certainly. W/'re working.

D: You work on those Lumbee. There's alot of them here in and not in church.
O_
RD: That's right. Quite a few of them.I find that arz t, many of them areAk
ch
church people or you know they vaa, they were raised up to go to church but
once they get here they find so much excitement going on,so much to get involved

in,they get away from church.

D: Where do the young people here, what do they do mostly, we'll say the 18 and 19

year olds?

RD: That's the problem. W'have with id4ialf from 16 to 19Awe have a problemwe're

trying to place these young boys and girls ipae jobs and they they (L4Si rw-runm

+4rou3h and get in trouble many times. There's not much for them...

D: Where do they get together, what do hey do?

RD: Well usually they 4awe, usually everybody, if you wantto to find the gang of

the Lumbees, usually you hit Baltimore Street.

D: And what's on Bal more Street?

RD: Well just mostly4 the Indians live on Baltimore street, the majority of the

Indian people live you know..

D: Where on Baltimore Street and Broadway?

RD: Yes.

D: iffmL 1 EilinriliiiiZOnf ebt 1J>(, QC urc)O jO f0hcl oh of) 1 r Oa-r2y Urc)U1
ljat-- %ind of pce o7f
RD: Well the only place that I that I'm aware that that they would be at is the

Center.

D: What the, the American Indian Center?
n
RD: The American Wdian Center.

D: But that's on Broadway Street.

RD: That's that's what you just asked me.

D: Yes..but I men if you're down on Baltimge Street where would you find them?

RD: Well they just hang out on the street, you know they have noo .





9.




D : The bars?

RD: No not really. I, the only har that I kniw that they'd hang in *e-much is bse

Sid ROncW house.

D: Where's the -- Onds< house?

RD: It's right around the corner, here on Baltimore Street and this is what 1800

block? 1800 black.

D: But you know what I'm really driving at, how do these teenagees, you know, they
++
gorna meet someone and they gotta court, they gotta date, where you know, where

are they mostly getting together you know, people have to get ways of knowing

eacother and one lives on one side of to n and the (her one on the other side,

where are they going to meet?

RD: Well they couldn't meet in the bars because if they're under 21 years of age,

they're not allowed to go in the bars so...

D: Are most of the kids who are 21 years of age, do most of them go to the bars,

do social drinking?

, 5: 1 couldn't say, I couldn't really say.

D: What would you say Miss Hunt? What about, what percent would you say? Rev. Die?



D: Expeeeig more f-ryE _permissable -ease, more so than back

home? -More acceptable here than back home?

H: I don't think so.
4here
D: But iSA+e more of P 4ohaL back home? Course that's the cause of open marriages

Then?

H: Yes,.

D: ny of our people have qoo& jobs here. And they're many of them have you
I MA c1
know, a skil jobS iee some of the semi-professional jobs and so forth. What are

some of the better jobs that you know of that people hold here in Ba imore?An ti

zC: dicrn' IrnM i...





10.



D : Herbert Locklear of course works for Social SErvice and he is the chief of the

division there. He's the double chief hief o- 4hc. d&viSLb Ond &i-6Jan.Ch0ef

What about sCge others here? Maybe one or two teachers or one teacher, know

of here? A You have any on the police forge?

RD: Not that I, we had one one guy on Re police force but he's not down there

"3 don'4 -hinvk an. mre

D: Mr. Hunt thinks therels hrehe or- tw more of them now.

H: ,a4sQ hh.. 4^ mae q*.4.* ; xcon CrOctIo/c r;rnfelQn4I Oh I ones. j3s+- dnr d(
D: Do you have some people up here who say they don't st, em-to be Mians,
ben"l in if
who say, whoi-beea-them to the white society,Athey don't live on Baltimore or

Broadway or someihre around, who live outside the six miles? Who don't even

claim an identity with the people here? IsAthis true?
veruY +te
RD: That's .

D: Could you see through that?
3ou -rec a 4NarouLOqk who ?
RD: WUhat da you rnanJ
no o\ta +c, onfoh oi6 1 +lr ar.
D: Well. /, .a, names, but just -t- tell me.
here, -ar- '.e rflure
RD: Well es& we have many people bit-4si never has affected the main Lumbees.
I cejepf, i
D: But yet they-4ept ht back home?

DpJ Yes,

D: And don't you have some who came here way before, few who came here before we

had, we were knwwn as Lumbee and they were called Cherokee then and they still

try to go as CherokeeIndaiw? IsAthis true?
+hey haveO.\ bevCOn knobn Jo utse 4,e nofrne_
RD: Yes _______Cherdkee.
y.ou P
D: And they don't want, don't rh have a group in other sections of twn that

don't want people to know that they know the peojl say on in yoe section of

town?

RD: Oh Lg o you know, W hove. _Ir&ons 14Iu+ don'tjyou knww tell people

they e white.

D:4ees. AMiss Hunt, you can go out and you pass for white if you want to, do you,





11.




would you enjoy that?
u 4e.nIrv
H: No I wouldn't. I'm proud of what I am and I wouldn't think of g somebody#

anything that's different.
u, for
D: Don't yop think though that years ago, that a person who could get byAwhite,
^utbjie is
he was more tem d to do it then, thfn he kw today.

H: I, I think so, because I think years ago, he weOldn't. they figured I think that
+theyreQ ped ar'yux Q-na 9S don't rh+ jl anx do crrencJ2.
it helped them some you know,nowA la-rig -ry--y-way

ht+he r people knows them. Or want to know them as white.

D: OK now Rev. Dial, before you all had this church, what did you all do for a

church?
on i-r.v. oac
RD: Welwe had rented a building., frum BalLimoe.

D: When did you rent that building?
Cbould.t- 5;x
H: Thates years ago.

D: A building which was not a church.

RD: (bout- S31" Lev4 r5 qa,

D: This was not a chuipbuilding.

RD: This was a store front.

D: A store fromtf.

RD: And we,Achurch bee there for about I guess about four years.

H: Foubears.

RD: You know,

D: And before that time what did people do about church? Nobody went to church?

RD: Yes, we bHre b0\ church, e5acbti,5IVd 1 herA-e among the Igjn people for
n
about, well sice I come up here.

D: Wa4 here ta 19 years, 17 years...

RD: 7 eajrs o they had a church on Y"more Avenue, a building there, which was

a store front, Ihe -A hl yars before I came in b Chunr-C Like I was in
te c ther +ha bewgare
the church: there -r a Sh3a'f F-riod C -iM Nwe, we the church wa-tSh-n





12.




"Xd acl/ I eea4dAgtther more people ,=get involved a(% the church became more concerned

about COdvaYxc-inQ ou-t you know --L O. ot.hr4o W.. We vanced

fnor terc, +o Broadway, to a nicer building, a larger building, and and then from

Broadway from the store front on Broadway to the church that we have

south Baltpmage now.

D: There's lots of other places where people could get a job to work other than

Baltinpe, Why id it that so many came to Baltimore?

ED: Well I f, my answer would be to AD-t 1_ _that Ig n6like to be

together.
,Iec(r
D: That's why I went to Detroit, after World War II, there was a ggat number in

Detroit at one time.

RD: Yeah I find th to be true, they come here.ba.1x.C5e ..
L-P we'l
D: They could go et and get a job wi-4h say a In Arori or a San Antonio or some

other pace but they wanted to go where their friends are.

RD: ; c16d h 4-1

D: Now why is this?

RB: Um.

D: Cause they've always lived together and known eackther and had 0-05-s polhcoj

tie This' is not necceasarily a -L me.eco C/o5e. acdose A this isaot

necessarily true with the white people is it?

RD: I would- acs so

D: How bout the schools? Do you do you have Lumbees realy participating in the
down1
schools here like they do beeae home?

I: think some of them doyes.

D; But not as many and not as active?

: No,

S: Do they go to PTA's and so forth?
,chi cLre.
T: don't know\ about that because 6de C not raOsinjQ (Ol.n L. 0p here .ilsane.
OJre, rown.





13.




D: You'e.fgever been to a PTA in your life, up here?

RD: No.

D: Have you ever? None of you. Why don't you participate in the PTA? Miss Hynt

why don't you go to PTA?

H: Always have something to do cr Il^h: o1 46-!C- i-rE n'nle

D: Why don't you go?

H: I would...

D: Just don't feel a part of it.
O0-
RD:I always send my wife, she goes.
dceS
D: SheAgoes?

RD:Yes 4l o ) my wife.

Rj^i;: t-le-s o CwIac1ij oIn," 4? foias ahde hInJ2 c h n(eLI home o+- nPjA-

3:Ri AlAn4t : C4 c hey A ;R -6* m when you say the racial situation or where we're

speaking of racism, would you say there's more here in Baltimoee as far as

Lumbee's are concerned or at home i nobeson County?
-- _-n' V r P
+hirv<1, -H+'/rl Q0 P
H: Wall I would ay-within myself that thcre-c more at home thon u/ here. C
weI with
wUOan-P +0 say because I'm not that/educated to keep upAthings like



D: Jev gess from your own observation. What would you say Rev. Dial?

RD.My answer would be more at home thgne-# here.
yo are- /
D: You're treated better here thantat home? By the white people?

RD: r would say so.

D: Mrs. Hunt would you agree with that?

ZH: What's that?
0-
D; That there's more racism at home thn here in Bobeson county that white people

treat you better here th n they do that they treat Indians in Robeson County?

ZH: Yes I think so,

D: Mr. Hunt what would you say?





14.




(:

D: When you first came here you two fellows, Mr. Hunt and Mr. Dial,you fellows came

here many years ago. Did you see any signs te "No Indians" like back in

Robeson? Were TKdians not allowed?

RD: I never have .5 t3 5or f: ?

D: How bout you Mr. Chorfle ?



D: You always went into where you w# ed to go..

: Not true.

D: Well what do you mean?

: r've bee 4 d & ho^ ma k frie bc anlrV Pnrl meies / e! 5 O.r L xJ(4]o
irT.
D: You've been in places who said that thetr friends had already messed up so you

couldn't go in. What did they mean by that?

: Thpr h in ktn.^ 'd&C~gcC !-L

D: They'd been in and wreaked. Well it really wasn't a matter of race then. It was

a matter of just wrecking their joint,huh?

: It was race.

D: It was race? And had someone wrecked it?



D:i know people hae- never refused any service now are they? They can't get bt

_______ '_'___things like that now.



D: mean no race, no race, no racial barriers.
9 arnd -hf +:orw
: they ive a fellow a hard time today -they
h h^ s Oil j .4he rn^ -t-s ir -M4 e u or- i _._...- ... .. . .. ......-

r think the guy's



D: Mr, Dial you*te lived a rough life up here for awhile and now you're a minister,





15.




do you, kow would you compare the two o- Aucbte6 did, you have, did you

have lots of spends or just as many frktnds when you, before you came a minister,

when you were living, you might say a drunken life?

RD: I have more friends now t9n I had at thaktime.

D: Sohr Li\e- ct Just walked in the son of, the grandson of MK. and Mrs.

/unt. Mr. John Willie, how long have you been in Baltimoe?

W: About five years.

D: Five years. Where do you work?

w: D ir i.S 1 Corp .

D: Oil company?

W: Dry well.

D: Dry well. What*b one occupation would you say most of the people, the Lumbees

are engaged in in Baltimoee?

W: A g

D: More of them painting thdn any other one.would you agree James Dial?

/JD: Yes sir.

D: Why is that?
rrore
:J: There's money in it.

D: More money. What does a painter get here per hour?

Jb: Well the union sale w3 ..

D: What charge?

PD: IEgke $6 an hour. ULnio- eQc/ .

D: The unions scales $6 an hour for painting? Do you get overtime?

bDy: yes.

D: Or time and a half?

41D: We get time and a half and certain days you get double time. And like the

holidays and Sundays, double time.

B: What's the most money you ever made here in a weei n your life?





16.



"Ip: I ti-ekF w. Well I have made over $600 in a week.

D: What do you fellows think of the union? Mr. Hunt do you favor unions?

CH: : 1 Q. 4-0 I unon Lfi*ln5 -
-favor -r
D: You ay-wel_ you think the unions How bout you Mr. John Willie?

W: T ro\ ^ r(Y3 I r- X d Onr-,

D: You don't like unions? Why?

W: Because you don't, youAget enough work. The union don't give you that much work.

You work about 6 months out of the # year,

D: o0Ad aou ax.( do la u all unions?

W. No.

D: 3s for C-O.Y5e, What do you think Mr. Dial?

,W: I, I think the unions 4ee.

D: You think the unions good and you work, you, you, you're not a union member are you?

N': yeOu-L k (e.J 3C L. a-\prnber

S AD: What are union dues a year.

:Well they run 06$7 a month.

D: Mrs. Hunt do you fink the unions good?

H: Well from ea I've heard people say and talking with the lady from, that works

r think it's good.

D: You think Robeson county would be better off ij we had unions, more unions down

there?

: c+ audd.

D: You say it would how bout you Mrs. Hnt?

R: I think so.

D: And you Mrs. Hunt?

H: Yes,

D: You think so ...

: -d CLn=id6er liv in down there, again if they had unions down there.

D9lAnions down there so yoUeall -rc 4.e.nan? Well the union gets 100% vote here





17.



in this house, one, two, three, four, five votes. Eary Hunt just
E4Ae-
walked in. Another son of Mrs. Hunt, how old are you Eary?

EH: 24, 25 next month.

D: How long have you been in Baltimore?

EIH: I've been back now fit three months. -inoi a-

D: But you were here before?
"'. "o-s here- I /
El-: Oh yes !rAwa n ( .

D: Ybu like Robeson better or BaWimore?

SH: Robeson .

D: You like Robeson. What are you doing in Baltimoee?

EH: R3ght now, Im working-s Dnge bureau of recreation.
Ot-
D: Bureau of recreation, -Bo you work with aAyoung people here in Bal'imo e.

EH: Right.

D: Tell me do you have many Lumbees participating in the recreational program here?

fH: Yes sir,Aa of them,

D: And do you see any difference/ in the LumbeeSand the other children, you know,
-4-
do they participate a, well or do hey get in trouble or how are race relations

down at the park?
hav d-w
FiH: No we don't *anyAthere, not that I'know of. We've had them in the past but not

necessarily the Lumbees or any group of Tdians but we've had like, we've had
trouble. X' WAL Wic
sTme-b, not necessarily the Lumbees. = s- Lup. qp participation^ course you

get a group of people like this they're all from different J rozunds .,

D: Are you proud thee of your identity?



P: Do you have trouble proving yourself at times?

H: Yes but not around Baltiioe.

D: Not around Baltimee.

jE: No see I've been in the past few years I've been S'rACe- '66, asQfy y I

left home Z joined the service. I was in California, New Mexico, various places





18.



do
and I've been taught toAdifferent things.

D: Do people treat you, do you think ou get the same treatment here say as)Ayou

A ewhite?

EH: I do personally. =r C. hones-t h I know I do.

D: As a group as a whole?
Sop-n +
EH: No. IAsee the difference as a whole.

D: Why?
noeo< like yoLuri e-
iH: Because of well the things that I-know--is thatAthe - kids it's because of

the what do you call it the repu n 4whe ihve/ you know they
wor-i r &h+ 5ared tajrf/
hav tendency to look at -the ae work partaw and 4iLj=Pa44y the good

part. We don'-t,_____

D: A lot of white people have a bad reputation don't they?
Worse- ,bu-+
EH: We*k-e4n then you got more of them)you know.

D: Do you have any Lumbee% here who associate with the blas? -d



: No not as many as I know, but I don't know that many above say like my age group
kieds
I'm, when I say I know somebody that'sAsay just about say between fourteen and

eighteen years of age.
mani
D: And ye' associate with the whites ?

S-- : Yeah, all these kids sScO._Q-Ct together. The ones that I'm speaking of.

SD: L0hi-4,e O-ridi. ? JhiO4' LIK You're saying where they do

associate with the black-4s the whites involved too.

EH: Right. i,-< oJi cferen groups.

D: Bccauae if it-was, you don't know of just where Indians associate with blacks.

CH: Not (,tj my knowledge.

D: Do you know of any, Berly, do you know of any Indians in Baltimore who are, who
0L
are try to be white and not Indian?

5H: In Baltimore?





19.



D : Yes.

H: Yes sir.

D: Are there very many of them?

EH: I know four.

D: You only know four. And what do they say?

EH: When they speak to me?

D: No I mean as they you knww.

EH: Well they won't let their kids date VA&ians.

Won't let their like their da ghters or sons, tohb'r" IA mae. They won't

let them date Indian guys.

D: They want them to date white?

H: Right.

D: Do they look this white?

IH: No.

D: +te don't even look white?
*i-^ -4b / obvious
EH: No you can tell -e obvious A their lyrians you knowpeebby you might think

they were Greek. -W -might that. 3 Krow of a0 Couple.

D: Do the local people, local white people here recognize names like we do, as

being Inc1gn names?

EH: No, no -,- ones that I know. ASCtS y they get use to them like the lady just

told me two days ago, she Midn't know I was Lumbee LP un-lI fvs (?ar 'o1 tsk SA r h1rt

D: And I sawt/axi,river today, y3e-brought me i the airport and I said you have

any Indksns living around Baltim4oe and Broadway street and said "I've never

heard of any." I said, "How long you lived here?" He says, "All my life". What

would you say to that statement?

EH: Well I'd, I'd question it.

D: _ouil_ question it.

EH;: I wouldn't call him a liar.

D: He thought you, he thought I meant somebody wearing feathersA/T-aen.





20.



/ 5 Rom
9H : He probably did. But the lady that Iym speaking of live a blockAwhere he

does.

D: terrible drop out rate here in school in Baltimore and you just had

efd& out of the totil population, you've only had two or three students graduat!

from high school a year. Isn't this true? Or is it true? The dropout rates

been real high hasn't it? Why? How many Indians do you know graduated form

high school last year? kr. MI-,J thought maybe there was only about

four.

:That's about, i+t Q fu- a :
-P epleC
D: Do you have very many these daye-for who don't claim that they are Lumbeewho

live in the outskirtswho go 6or white? Do you have very many of them tivingln

do you have very many of them in Baltifop? You know who do this?

: x dcLon' Kn OF3 of .o.:.rj ic naiIe...
Know
D: There's a few of them around. I in of several here.

: W-t don't have that many of them. I

D: But there's not many of them.

: Cf hrdoJ6 a6hnn make yrself .known.
-- .-.... ..... --.------.--------.....-.___-- K, ao co. Cupl oPf 4-!a.. "- ,
W/ When rame. use(
D; Well yeah that was j53. Weal the am mixed race isoae isAwhat do you think of

FaPy, what does mixed when you're speaking of Lumbees, Lumbee is you say is

mixed. What do you think of?

El : Another ethnic group or any another group ----------I don't necessarily think
of rbat color.

D: What do you think of, John?

W : *S.il} cf( Coilor mwred.

D: Yeah but what color?

W : White.

D; What do you say?





21.





D: What do 'you think of Miss Hunt when we say mixed b&ood?

H: Colored and white?

D: Right. The thing about it so many a what do you think of? So many, so many UIdian

: people have a tendency to think of mixed blood, you say alright, it's just a

blood, well mixed is mixed.

H: That's right.

D: You cqa be white as well aps black. You see the point?

H: Yes.

D: You can mix red and you can mix tea and milk as wellAwater so but our
name
people have had a tendency to use the mein mix just on the blab, side.

S: Right. We know center. on e time.r--o- T lOand and they

asked one of the ladies why are you so white and your hair is like colored. And

they were looking at Zelma, said your ht*r don't look like 'her's. She says "Wel

I'm mixed with white and that's why -"I r -- I'm mixed with white."



D: Now jus4- foie1n A and listen at the type of work you do. How, all of you

have farrni guess. How many of you would rather farm thjn to do the job that

you are doing if you get the same money out of it. How bout you er-Y?

H : L ra4iher be- d&lon cihoca i dol'g now., in recreatraon
'"p'u (u+ In re-CreO
D:.WhatL' u- r -lldo a t.iu. How bout you Jimmy Dial?

2D: I'd rather E e faCrnln.

D: c'd raFJr j in the same money when you farm? How bout you?

": in the farm.

D: How bout you?



D: How bout the home owners here do most of-hhe people own their own homes or most

of them rent? Right hereAh -11'bik. Apart Mi rs s u everybody's edy I suppose.

1 Fhat*^ right.7





22.





Y' oUw. -ahs hornet.
D: Do k W_______Mr. Hunt?

CH : me tlf& oWQ^ 14- *

D: h 1 > ufe- Ovans I Pe he said. How bout yoXu Mr. Dial you own your home?

D: Yes.

D: D you own a hore of a apart-, I mean a building like. this or is it a house out
wi+h a. Io+


D: We own la house like this.

D: House like this. Do you rent out any othes or do you use it all?

D+f'Use it.

D: Wel ow, you're not married are you?

: No (3,YO.

D: You own your home?



D: And you're not married. No people who are married here, eurV6bo owieyour

own homer' Herbert Locklear own his own home? So there, there are lots of them
OWA
buying theirAhomes you would say here, is that right?

: Yes.

D: What % woAuld you say buying their own homes here?

: WQI( .

D: Maybe --50%?

: I would say so, yes.

D: Ni here on the, here in the area of Baltimore Street and Broadway

and this vicinity here where most of the I#fX#ylive have you had a migration

out of lot of the people moving into the suberbs of Baltinrp? And why? Mr. Hynt?

D:H: tht

D: What's that t-ia?





23.




D: They give them room to itLj O LTLmtea ?

"4H:1 iThQr oLn for- b Ae- k C -

D: Looking for oaer 5odCls i

CGE: ...... _I would ho(-U jb n rnuirgonirPn .

D: Involvement, What do you mean?

eCH: The environment.
kLe3er dnkfi'3)
D: The environment? Looking for better environment. 1A hi 'rCai so forth and
"I~66f ULre e. tbzininlr
so on. Less problems maybe. Da" you feS again another family would

you probably move out?

cd6: Yes, I'm sure I would.

D: You'd go to the suberbs, You feel the same way.

: Yes.

D: You think you d more out too?

: Yes.

D: HOW are living conditions hereAover all? As well as they are at home or worse?

E: Worse.

D: Living conditions are worse. -Even tenent faam?
i'Ke .swrae of ie)Ir, Aexr,
S.: It'd be better to tenent farm and to live beek-hoe.
Jus+ chnlj4
i 7T^ Couldtl li\' be'erA like-the money.

D: Would you encourage people to live Robeson county and come to Baltimore to live?
SFoQucdaio^ or ome+hinc htad sborn',
Ei 6 :NoJ udrnli.s 4_a had a Sm umA up here to .i. -_ .

D: Would you Mr. Dial?

D: No.

D: All, everybody saying that I talked with, they say they wouldn't enouurage
leave- yokr"
people to ie home to come here is that Sa 4.n Mr. Auln ?
-to 6o-iMo're- Lat+ n Uere
CNH : Noa nee6s;l A I'd advise anybody to go anywhereAthe job6 ore c- a it.JaS&' 4bo 6riO V

e wiChour anrinoit' pr hard 4t mtat jth y don4' nv reearl I hhcv e +o comen here.,

D: Mr. Locklear stated today that they lot of our people have been 1 icblCe beaa





24.




for welfare services, never did want-a to accept it but *e, tbe4r beginning to

get around to accepting it now when they now they're eligible for it, of course.

But he also pointed out that lots of them, even if you take the total number,
0.
comparatively speaking, it's much lower.-than the white or the blacks here, the

number on welfare do you thinkAis true?

: I that.

D: Yeah?

: Yeah. You see I feel this we 16.j cu _d __f'_



D: The Indians now ON\ welfare.

these people 'vilAl3 Robeson

county Come- baock < on- ca.- o -0, otA 4 eP mnne. /qAno a hale.o ,

_1f'L/re. 4-to Tprodc- & 4bhJe 4 l)- r, *)0 prodL +c Yae- ii.4

D: _but he's speaking of all of us.

H : yott dcanr me-- ea. a/ of uw

D: You say you have some whc&.,,

: There's a few Uho uotcaO b eligible. fr it ,c ttOq + hrio f o r 4 + .

D: Say you have some who come all the way back.onCe o4 MonAf ?

: Yeah, yeah, I( Qbh g Conr' (n2, 9'2. rroro\ .

: 5Lrce +fhgerec CU' OL rncrA. A killed --------.r h, c .
0 W /, Wi*er e L(g -
p:;id kLnow o Lr- people -ill them.

PwP JM^OJ- iA jhO)ur bJookL



P: What?

SU0 PLD t+he people who e-feW who don't particularly care about going ct 1e ar- Cfno 4hrrour

+h.. 3roCesS h-(" lrun hift P .-ea., all the red tapes in the

world. JTerCe. 6ornme 4t-icki c Q- tIn ...

D: Do you think som be Ar (rO irinoa welfare here and in Robeson?





25.




: V^Th pes6ib! e cvyrt. pogoble.

D: Alright. What's this?
on
RD : The Indian people that areAthe welfare now, they're getting welfare, the majority

(Q) them I'V say Mr. Locklear is helped the people to get this because up until
over 4Ca-+
hie (ou know took this a6We, you know the steps to seeAthe Indian people were getting

welfare you'll find that the the majority of the people that are on /Yifare are

white and colored. We know we might know quite a few people that are on it but

it, that are people that Mr. Locklear helped to get on and I think they they
draw i
to my way of seeing it you know the Incn, people have the right toAj*nd if they

can get it as much as anybody else whether they are eligible for it or not.

: jobs. Would you say that how many of them,
colored 6, tI' n a nd howuj 1r ~- t-
how many white-lepa dow Iwwe in Baltimore.

: Now you're thinking about the coloreds

D: That are not eligible.

; Right, right.




here-
D: Well you don't have much racial balanceAin some of your schools do you? They

must not be doing a lot of busing?

: No, Lture nof omtu6inos
J J
D: They're not busing?

AH : 1,-e U A I^ 'Iu-b U 0e COs t, ca6 1 1r pr e U f111 16



D: Why haven't more of youreople gone into business? I see where you could put

up business of Baltimore street or Broadway and make some money, a resqqrant

or a clothing place or carry some Lumbee soap, why, what are you waiting on?

There's a fortune here.

-





26.




: mtApeople have -A d Ie'e nL *lr-f. oeg-pe O y've 4tc L-------

D: ,
End. "f TaF, 8 S;Led.e.
__: They won't pr -tcf' oJ people won't Z',+onr,,.o1,


lid li't -4 5e ;a^ld loA Srafc9.. i^cio mt LQi^ clar^ .\__O _.

1H : _faypr you know, he's
predtis.on he ci'o/i o 3
gonna, ie ableY4- affo hat $30,000, $40,000 or $50,000 house.


D: Well how do you all feel about it? WooctdnP Jdl' aef am ndian place?

: nkanybody giAwwould IEL that I : o-d of 4)nf you know. If hb

honest and I'd py fer t--ht, bUL & k^ trokd, -X w)oucjin1.

D: But wouldn't you patronize Aim if lS all things equal just because?

Ef : Cf h<'s Oj l uat.l J4 patronize Inv equlc-Ltj white man,

patronize him some who won't.






P; Do you think Lumbee people are more jealous of each their, getting ahead, and

and thin say people in BaltlinAo? Back hoe it seems like there's alot of jealousy

among Lumbee.
+hintc :rnd-icL 015
: I/fee1 people are justAjealous of eachpther as white people or black.

) : I think they're more so.

: I' know I been here ________

H : f etias5o 2 :ySao

D: Po you have anybody in business here? Among the Lumbee? Over all there's not

many people in business here in Baltimore amongg the Lumbme is this correct?

:Yeah because h--- onk- Lc.6 t '. Tbx 'r'in o veP h 41 u O 0. sae- corner
dr ooy n; maie i+ on 4-eh Coorn.er oC-
grocerymrn-a\cu ard- 0 f- and he couldAta==-ben ______





27.






D: You don't think one could make it with Lumbee daaeag?





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