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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
Interviewer: Lew B>rton
"Subject: Herbert Locklear.
N member 7 ,1974
B: This is November 7, 1974. I am Lew Barton recording for te University of
Florida's History Department's American Indian Oral History Program. This
afternoon* we are favored to be a t 211 South Broadway, here in Baltimore,
Maryland, ft the American Indian Study Center and with me kindly consenting
to give us aninterview is say the boss or at least, hs somewhere
up there near the top.in anything he does and that is good old friend of
mine, Mr. Herbert H. Locklear. Herbert, you were very kind to have me
come in and give us this interview. H& are things going for you?
L: Lew, the pleasure really is ours. Wr glad to see you fter several years
separation only seeing you occasionally during that period. Thank you for
coming and thank you also for asking. 've been doing reasonably well here
in Baltimore and we are having sort of a good time with what wre doing
and v6 been here for now ss ate eighteen years and we learned t ,feel
at home a little bit here.
B: you know I came over here l to World War II. Just before our entry into
World War II and when I came'here fte at that time there was just three of us,
Andrew Locklear, myself, Drop i-.JV-!, and somebody else. But we were the
only Lumbees in Baltimore. And since that time,Vmigration has been very heavy
from Robeson County, *rk Carolina hasn't it?
L: It certainly has. I would approximate that *s-seme-where.i.-ts-asa.
SEs, there are some 3,000to 3,500 Lumbee Indians here. And in addition to
that there are other Lumbee, many other American Indians of other tribal groups.
Many of whom are involved with the American Ildian Center here ing if Baltimore,,
I believe in our last tally from our -i'. we have something like 11 different
tribal groups represented. It could be in excess of that now in that wj
meeting hhse people all the time.
B: By the way I saw a sign that said Mohawk something, do you have any Mehawks
L: Yes we do. A matter of fact a friend is Mohawk works over with the Bethlhem
Steel Si Sai d =w taxsash' and he comes over occasionally
and two or three other MohawksVare around from the New York area, who are here
living and working.
B: Th goog,I think tiaYsdsg isSks'' 't^ gives us an opportunity to broaden
when we assocfte with other groups. fg-rmpi>- y 'J"S, when our people
began to migrate to other places for better opportunities and so forth, particu-
larly employment opportunities, there were those who were aftaidf when they
got aay from home they would forget all about being Indian. That hant
happened here has it?
L: (I 'afraid Lew that some of that has happened here unfortunately. That really
is the identification of the fact that very thing ta happening gave rise and
cause to this study group here. Six years ago ote of our irabee- who was
a teacher at one of the local schools dealing with the preschool age child1
who was now a member of our staff, Mrs. Elizabeth Locklear, came to us once
along with some other concerned persons and we began to discuss that gap that
iden i ,- rj r-4
existed between the i.dentyaig needs of American Indian students and hose
resources available to them through the public school system and t was on
a basis of that that we really got started with the organization in Baltimoret
Already identified as. t American Indian Study Centers th"'y why we have the
word study iT.ne?. a in our title. To try to bridge that gap to cover
that cultural gapj Bring the needs of Indian'children and that which la
b 'provided through the public school system." In this w vebeen relatively
successful and I-r .... b- .."' .. -. I believe that we have provided some
empais to sort of aa-people back into thinking traditional Indian,and be
an Indian in a non-Indian environment as itwere and that sort of tricky\
Because we believe that there are so many things in the Indian culture,
that ought to be protected and preserved. While at the same time eing a
member- of the main stream of American society.
B: By the way I have run into different people with different interests in the
American Indians jam* it seems to me that the one group that has a deeper
interest, .A I'm) talking about non-Indian groups As the Mormon Church
popularly so called the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I was
not aware that they had this great command of the history of the American In4 ns
until I listened to some of their thLa l talks and bought some of their slides,
and so on-and sgu the American Indian culture was amazing as you know, we had
pyramids that would swallow up the pyr ds of Egypt. Temples built on top
+h; I 95 -- -.- -
of temples, magnificent Vand thitdaaalll, -,b. a eW xev the average
American is not aware pIMTr that the Aerican has this kind of civilization
L: You'eabsolutely right. And the premise that we sort of work from here,.
is that n order to give meaning to the present9o the contemporary life-
style, A5a and in order to generate interest in the future, one has to
know something about the past. Because of the future and the present ean' t
really have an ultimate meaning unless the person can relate it to a&p i a
achievements and accomplishments, tFcause out of the past that J-- the future
holds promise for us and consequently, we have dwelled consider-y on re-
establishing where it has been lost, maintaining that which has been preserved.
Thus Indian cultural traits and patterns, and characteristics have set a
pattern of behavioo)so that we can help the-yowath the young people identify
with the present and to hold promise s the future to sort of sever,if we can)
that cord of alienation, separation) And lack of self-confidence, lack of
self-image, of self-worth and to builO more kiads that each and every individual
being the result of God's magnificent creationand the way we try to that is
to help people look around and see what has Veen ad'mplished thereby adding
hope for the present knd the future. You mentioned about the Mormon Church,
I d know a great deal about them %E here in the Baltimore area, but a
ChuArcl group and I do know something about with whom w 'veworked here, ..e`gKup,
who seem to be equally concerned is the American Friends Society of the Quaker
Church. And they have done a ot. As a matter of fact, th r having a program
here tomorrow night. With ^h;'- : [.---from New York, And some
other areas from over in Canada and this program -4-=aL--iSt's
\ going to be here at the center but it's sponsored by the American Friends
B: Well tha certainly great. W 'r wondering lso-although all this is so
interesting younsaksa, Vut eq'd)like to get your biography, in here. Would
you mind tracing your biography for me?
L: Well I think maybe if I have any gift f gab at all iS) talking about other
things and other people, i ) not almg as m ch in talking about myself,
but try. As you know I was born and raised in Robeson County. In the
area of Firncicr-.-, I was graduated from high school at the Pembroke High,
And I subsequently Pembroke Unilersity'l957. Taught school there for a
couple of years and moved to Baltimore and water coming to Baltinae I
fortunately, and I emphaj1fythe wor fortunately, because i&s been so
W 9 o~
regarding and satisfying for me, 1%e involved with tcial services and
subsequently went to the University of Maryland where I got my Master's in
social working 1966. And I am now professionally employed with the
Baltimore City department of socj services. And I head up the food stamp
division for Baltimore city. In addition to that, as though that wa6n''
a ful ime job, which it is, tif 'Imalso one of the founders of the
American Indian Siudy Center'/August, 1968. And e'v worked with this
community ser ce orientation since that time 61 pat ime basis. In a free
and spare time kind of way but spare time resultei;rean average of
approximately four hours a dyy since that time. And vCI indicated before
that we started out here at ti American Indian Study Centeryby the way in
which this tape is been made, c -,j ,'jL. group but pretty soon there
after we found out that .se we established group of concerned and interested
Indians about welfare of other Indians, that we had so many problems brought
to us that-many people would not carry to the established, peventionatl helping
agents ite found out r L r r an that we needed to branchout into
other things as wellso we started in a campaign to raise money and to hire a
staff and to create a community facility, though.- which Indian people could
relate. So consequently w'' r" done a lot of work in that area, and I must
^-dmit that it is been through this community service .fr-educatiQn where
really gotten professional satisfaction. After going to the school of social
work and getting a master's immediately they put me into supervision aned
-l'AQ subsequently to administration and that has not provided me t- r ''oC
t thJ- \ (-1..,, .i '.I. r' ;. "' ,SrJ ,.-- '- --'t
o. hat I yearn o but this that tives me an xpti- to meet
people to talk to people and to be immediately involved with people,%on an
individual basis. I married a girl from Nore Carolina, Robeson County ad
together we have five children. My oldest son of whom very proudis ink
the Air Force Academy out in Colorado.
B: Can you tell us all their names?
L: His name is itlif Kirby Raya Locklear. -^ a nL eng.wiul-e Et tg his.
m-e T-ite -n et rme- rect-ethafj JoW y, .e was eighteen last week.
I ve been away, 've forgotten his birthday had passed. My oldest daughter
is inA Ramona (0 a 7and se'sa second year student at til- Pembroke
State University, in North Carolina. My third daughter, Anna Marie, is a
Pt r 1,
senior at PattersonVH/gh School here in Baltimore. My fourth daughter,
Greer, is in the ninth grade, at the 4rnrS-I' anl tSe;tsf junior
high and then my fifth one is still a baby of three years old.
B: Thats)great. Who was it you married? You married a Lumbee Indian didn't you?
L: Yes. Her% name Christine. She was a Hammons to our marriage and she
was from the Fairmont area also.
B: Well Herbert yo v done so remarkably well, 'T-cT a. as you know1%aq*.
shOe-, 'vve always been a great admiregof yotrs and if you ever start a
fan club be sure to let me know.
L: Alrightj yow rC msoroe -4V. .fALi..,
B: Til be -Gu+ -.* Y e certainly great in so many ways. a g your
interests and so sincere. thby the way how much *here your housed right here.
This is very interesting. rAL,-a E-Si a&4, we could help noticing
the picture windows and things like this. Could you tell us a little something
of this building?
L: Lew, thpi;p;ticUul.arjjda'-g this area where this building is located
is called the Fell's Pointt area in Baltimore city, aWd this is one of the
oldest areas of Baltimore. It was established in and around the por -
this area was developed because the the waterfront is just a few blocks from
here and in times past cattle was brought right up to the water front there
where there were slau er houses esa and this is the way this area started
in and around that. Now this particular building is I think well over a 100
years old. gi
B: Ve beautiful.
L: It is a very nice buildingj.- It belongs to the Fell's Point Methodist Perish
and whe n.we started *=we*w r m 'sP in 1968, in August they gave us
one room here. As toa show their community involvement and intera' A
few years ago unfortunately the congregation here dw ndled, aS .-thS, there
are three churches in this ., and they have integrated their churches and
have vacated this one. So that what we have now the whole rear end of this
facility here, the aovirt is not used except occasionally ,here we have
general community church related meetings occasionally maybee once or twice a
year. There are some things surrounding the building that sort of stais
it s history. I was just looking up' n the wall for a plague that was hanging
up there, and has recently removed I do 't see it there now.. ut this building
has a very inter sting history and we want to make sure that is restored
and protected and preserved.
B: Well I was noticing on his wall over here, long live the American Ind-ians.
This is something thto, based on the fact that He Iddians have still come
as extinct as the bald eagle. They would have if it had beenn for
preventive laws and things like this. At one time, L4ka-Q- kLz 0
/ < c----, -'LJ
fallen iagfe s mBe 850, 000 -pajrdaad to something like 250,000. Thas
a very conservative estimation of 1885. But this sign seems to beti-a
-zit *- -Taztl increaseP i-- we don't want to become extinct.) H@ ab
=aagl .mL"-=a t :toy-osk rsame4n- .-'How do you feel
L: OutW c S^iCC_---. s l about the liiele piece of artwork which
you're referring, this is a result of an artistic expression probably and our
fee ings of some of the young people around here. We work with many. We have
some art classes, cultural training etc. And often times they just make
what they feel like and we like to display this things for of course for the
the obvious to encourage and motivate them. And o-l50 because we certainly
agree with alot of the slogans, concepts, etc. that they produce. Now as
to my feelings about assimilation I believe about assimilation like a class
set of the christians, that we are in the world but not of the world. I
believe that we can be American Indians living in Americk society, enjoying
tBagh.all the rights and privileges of American society, equal to all their
people, and still maintain our distinctly our Indianness. And this is what I
try to practice. This is what I preach. This is what I encourage. I believe
that if other's golng to be assimilation on a cultural level that i
the non-Indians Qught to assimilate many of their ideas and concepts to that
of the American Indian because you know, as a historian, that there are many
things in the American Indian culture that really ought to be emulated0
Child rec. r;r
""t" practices, governmental concepts, organization of government as
such /he democratic process, and community-type living, reflected really.,.
much more homogenity in terms of society collected livingJthe does c lot of the
-aea the capitalistic approaches that we are pressured into making now,
4acssa-mw where, t-f" "a,- if you do-t have -4k I, e RP
you'T been equal or some sort of sillines6course:we-e dotbelieve
in a ;-TPnr--T1y-y*-= rg r= -f-ss imitation, and I think that
cultural assimilation has to be approached most cQutiously, rfsalse eh !!
d-a thee aJP g n Iyedaa-, we do believe in interre-lationships or, and
that' the same as saying assimilation.
B: Thers) another, you-know, i p' ne thing to assimilate and another thing to
B: Thee) a great difference in that. If that's selfish, ("LM)like
you, i /nCL4 o .-, our identities.
L: I wrote an article which fortunately got published the National Association
of SocialWorkers Journal, and I believe one of the comments that we made in
that arti le, along that same line, was that that which is worthy of preservation
proves itself- test of time and this is true with the American Indian.
You spoke about how the Tidian almost became extinct, under ordinary circumstances,
the American Indian culture would have been totally absorbed by now< ere it
not for a real struggle to F survive and on the basis of that mere survival
reflects certain stamina not only in the people but in their philosophy and
"WSd in their thafoEitit type and mode of living and we believe that ought to
be protected and preserved.
B: Wll th certainly good. These are the totuhy things Jhat. we have to be
honest about, don't we?
L: s-trLy. Yea there is.
B: And you and I have never been ___ery about any subject. We 11 there areas
many things that )like to cover. What do you envision for the future of
the centerbere? Do you do you expect to continue to expand? Wait before we
get into that, suppose somebody went to the Ugiversity of Florida library,
or to PSU library and Lipek&d out a transcript of this interview or rnr a
copy of the tape and thy wanted to to make a donation or a to help in some
particular way, JSaBKhs how would they get in contact?
L: Thahnk you for asking that question, Lew. We are a tax exempt organization for
personal contributions. We are exempt fMa internal revenue codes, title
IC3 and 4 etd4--A -th .:y-charitable organization and as a civic Xanse. We
have two exemptions such overtures would be helpful and certainly appreciated)
and any kind of offer of help or interest to help, or an interest in the
organization would likely be communicated to the American Indian Study Center,
211 South Broadway, Baltimore, Maryland. I certainly dOam would not object
tc-being contact personj\iy home address is 1014 East 36 th Street,-in
Baltimore, 21218. telephone number here at the center is area code 301-732-
8230 or my home number is the same area code, 366-2770.
B: t tht's rhood because mure somebody will want to make contact with you.
I d n' know how many libraries will get copies of these that we do know, that
'r starting with the University of Florida, and Florida State Museum,
and and Pembroke State University and of course tathaeop 4izb, these
tapes willimade available a .--.ila9a. .-t to people throughout the
United States who are interested in studying the life style of the Lumbee.
L: Well. lew thee one thing that I like to say that 'ssit
is sort of a new day for the Lumbee as you well know. Us being primarily
ruo-_ctl p 4
Snae people, having moved here to Baltimore, in the urban eit.. Je have
found that the the road is just a little bit harder here, to hoe as it were.
And in our effort to protect and preserve those cultural ostha we were
talking about, r- gee keep the people o-; Indianfr-'fbth
urbanization definitely has it's toll upon Indian culture and we have a
sort of a multiple kinds of problems here in our effort to do tvaT o-this
preservation and the t fsfmf-:4n community serviceP. hat we certainly
hope 4o proDvi' ;.
,,"-^_ "" "*"z*" -*-*- i -
B: How to get in contact with you if somebody wanted to make donation or contribute
L: Yei now havingVthat I have spoken to that, like to use just a minute
if I may, to say yuwaknew-something as to how I feels while tribalism
-t S) are to be respected and appreciated, I believe that one of the greatest
obstacles that American Indians face and 3I,'speaking specifically about
Indians is to learn to be able to live in and work together for a common good,
transending tribal lines. You know 'a Lumbee by birth, when time come by
death also but nevertheless also Pb" Amerivan Indian in that I hopefully
am able to identify and associate vith similar type problems that are faced by
oth'e tribal groups. I d J disassociate myself from the struggles for water
rights of the Northwestern Indians for example. I d4 tjdisassociate myself
for availability of water for some of the ja midwestern or plains people.
e / A_ brmLji r
These are Indian problem and I belieVe you need to get more of ahe=d-identi-
fication with one another. )I wish it were that we could ultimately become where
we are American Indian first and then a member of the dis'I,-i..- -/ tribe,
group or class) second. That then while these things are important identification
purposes and deaa enpurposes, I think the most important is a real
community of brotherhood that as I said transcends tribal, geographical
boundarie and this is one of the areas where we definitely have to work in
an urban setting because of the djmixture of groups here.
B: Well I certainly want to congratulate you on what yo've done so far and
to wish you luck's speed also.
L: Thank you.
B: I would like for you to say\if you would, about what you would advise e44l-h
people to do. Now you know we have a new generation of of Lumbees who are
8) coming along who are very uPstand what would be an equal line for the
general public inirder to make that people mate again, in order to make
that people really stimulated xou have to make them a little bit more than
equal.and I think that in some respects the federal government is recognizing
that in that t designating aL lot of money specifically to the American
Indian. That a lot of the tel thy money that's being appropriated by congress
there are now going to say that a or some cases up to2 must be signated
for the American Indian that in order to make American Indians at a self
sufficIa level peivey-ii, you got to bring them i a little
bit higher than what is generally considered as equal. Now that is not an
unfair proposition be cause wfehn3e, in order to get people main stream from
far left or right you have to go the pendulum has to swing far over into the
opposite territory and so that when the settling of the time comes then you will
go back to an area or a level of equality. g although for the
time being I think that our people have to in order to live down lot of the
stuff that other people have lived ras for us, we have to be a title bit
better than average and or equal. We haveto be unequal by being a little bit
and sometimes superior because we are still in that area of having to prove
L: You see, the American Indian, you're faced with their kind of problem.
Where as say the protestanwhite in this country all L1W. has to dobe white,
asi and the very near fact of birth gives him certain rights and privileges)
whereas i('s ot true with Indian because the ,5c-retyped kind of concepts
about Indians in this country. When you meet American Indian you got to be
really good to be as good. Yeaameaand t at' where it has I believe that
comment might be '!_n O dd' know but I certainly would feel that
that is a sort of a fair analy-ses as I see.'- .
B: Yes and I certainly agree with you. Congressman charlie Rhodes from Notth
Carolina, C -0.W '. r ;:<,c:'7 Q several years ago, and our Lumbee homecoming
brochure and -t the name of his program on television is something special,
and t' this adO that he carries in this Lumbee homecoming brochure is
siih.ag a"aSer something special, but this brings up another problem, perhaps
and that is-ihki, this professor Adolph Dial, has reference to I think.,recently
when he said m trying to teach my child pride without prejudice.
L: Yeah, right on. bmueI yea, -: I agree tha if lIdians of s ety
have been really something special and _i'fs th t's)the idea of the thing,
of his statement. For example, I just finished a 'Eing ou+ through the midwest.
I was in southwest I was in New Mexicoefor a week and I went around to apot of
the pueblos there and I went into a lot of areas in Colorado etc. Now whts
ES>wh ts) peculiar is that you get s1e the tourists for example attracted to
that area not beciUse of the desert, not beisse of the mountains, not because
of anything else other than the American Indian and the"j go out in the
evening out to the festivals and things and watch the Ind s dress up in their
traditional garb and do a cultural expression and t ey'1l leave them there and
having ad'a good experience, and go back to say a plush home and in the
east or west or wherever they might be living and will have called it a very
good vacation. Th y'v sort of lived a few weeks by this experience you see
to see and to lea'n something, but then when the Indian leaves this festival
S off his feathers, he goes back into squaller, to ppoverfy and to a
life of non-recipient the good that this country has to offeead njow t4h3o
artdm8s., those states love those Indians, because they attract these tourist
dollars. But when Icomes to putting money out for rehabilitation, for job
training for economic improvement, when it comes Mi, to building houses,
suitable for human habitation etc. No! And again referring to my article,
I said it there something to effect that the Idian is very similar in aot
of cases, say to the Grand Canyon, people go to see them. You see?
L: The difference is yawaosb-one is the place and the other is the people.
And wr talking about human beings you see, and yeat, the American Indian
is generally thought of something special. Especially when it comes to making
to say a cowboy and Indians, you count o it without some Idians or some-
body playing as the Indians. tg the I dians hae entertainedth vedressed
up, th Y'v looked good, they've become a part of American heritage and a*aa4
/oo many people don't want to change their heritage, they want to keep it
exactly the way it is'nobody would think about taking a bulldojand going the
fac of the Grand Canyon because i )part of American heritage. it's ome-
thing that we knowit's'there and we can go seefit when we want to.
B: It's a shrine.
L: But people needs this progress along with the times. People to move and people*
need to grow and to enjoy the prosperity that; their fellow man is enjoying.
If we got pIverty, to be sure, and I'mnot suggesting that all the TIdians
ought to have a million dollars,('m ot even sure if it'd;be good for them.
But (m)saying that we are our brothers keepers.
L: And we ought to be concerned about one another, and I might addima.my
e\pbAi tc this I not just talking about American Indians, vworked-with
American Indians, I love American Indans, I live with American In4 ns,
etc. and because I can not in no way comprehend the -vK-.j of problems
arising, I concentrate on that of the American Indian. That doe 'mean to
say, ()not equally concerned about problems that other minorities and other
people face, similar to that of the American Indian.
L: You see, I'not suggesting for one moment that Indian people ought to have
all the breaks, and nobody else get any. Ij saying that we ought to get
breaks equally. And that this then would get to be more certainly of a
christian brother hood, fellowship kind of concept and we could be guilty then
of a4ot of time practicing what we preach. When we really do that.
B: Right. Well is there anything you would like to refer to? fL, what's on
your heart right now? Any particular thing?
L: Well I think I...
B: wanted to ask you about your health when I called up here the other day
3m% I called your home, your doctor had told me that you were ill and I hope
you feel much better now.
L: Thank you, Lew. Yeia somehow or another, back in tSm-- i r' early
September I became sick and"'"admitted to a hospitf on the 19th of September
and stayed there three weeks with that dreaded 'ickness of hepatitis. 5i$
i'a slow process of recovery but the doctVr tells me now that I can go back
to work on Monday coming and of course I'm)looking forward to that. And glad
to have recovered sufficiently, to be able to go back to work and I do
appreciate you asking but i feeling reasonably good now.
B: Well th good and I hope, i'-1C r,:-'too much because I know you are
still, you are not fully recovered yet, although you sound fine to me.
L: Thank you again. Well I just had maybe nothing 3yff.NWek-O of any real
drama to sayJbut '.I sort of sum up to say that often times when I start
talking about the areas of concern with which f I findtft myself that,_!MiiL -
"--iitis n enthusiastic topic that feeling deeply l,
B: J_- -... ure you do.
L: And more than motivated to participate-in any kind of interview, or sharing
of information or feelings or concepts. I ot claim'mine are necessarily
14kaewa but they are mine and thanks to change with different kinds of
experiences I would imagine if change was indicated for the better. But
('m encouraged tdby as we'v already talked about about the movement of
American Indian across the country.
L: nid I want to use every opportunity, every vantage that I have to encourage that
and to be supported for that to really give ear and ventilation to a process
in which American Indians can seek rt"..' through their own personal and
community i j 1 'and rehabilitation. And I mean that on both a spiritual as
well as an economical, political lines this country we need each-
other and I said too, and an' article that I believe (its there to say that
none of usg are really free BSi as long as any of us are in bondagWand
I sort of maybe like to end on that note if ou satisfied with the interview
but fi9&., I feel that you know that, therefore the freedom of each and every
one of us, is the other person's responsibility because it has something to do
wih whether or not Cufree.
L: YeaU, I caQt) sat free if I felt that you're in bondage and I believe that
we ought to share that as a concept as a philosophy across the country.
B: Said none of us lived to ourselves or 'eDa6ai=
L: Right. Thmthight.
B: I think this is the way Im going to open my preface B the second edition
of my book. Or to my acknowledgements rather. Neither does any man write a
book to himself.
Q There are so many people you are indebted and o'- t 'y r I'i-' that the enadi
you happen to be as looking with or engaged to any.
8: "'"e A B sounds *ood#e right there, ;adrh, you know what I mean.
L: E^ I do and I share it with you
B: Well again I want to thank you so very much. fS _-ypu'vo added much to our
program. Our people are interested across this country and in as much their
interested I think you re right Cr 'ir perhaps we should do all
S. .. b we should do all
possible to furnish them with that information and in that way perhaps wvei
eliminate a lot of erroiand misunderstanding so many miscvndeptions, the old
stereo-type, perhaps we can C, 'rc' l that ourselves.
L: Yei I hope so and i fco'' w aylaz-result''af this interview in any
way that you feel would be helpful.
B: Well thank you so very much and that here wishing you good luck and God's
L: Thank you.