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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
RUSS HYDEN 1 LUM 198 A
B: This is Novemberf1l, 1974." I' m Lew Barton interviewing for the
University of Florida's History Department, American Indian Oral
History Program. This afternoon we are privileged to be at the
William Packer Elementary School, number 83) and the assistant
principal has kindly consented to give us an interview. Would
you tell us something abott yourself, please me.. ',
G: My name is Geneviever Gaither. I attended public school in Baltimore
City. I received my B.S. degree from Coppins(?) Teachers College in
Baltimore. I received my master degree from New York University.
I have a certificate in TBO-teaching by objectives- where I've)ake
courses at the University of Maryland.
B: Um hmm. That's great.
G: I have been in the Baltimore City School System for twenty-eightyears.
I have been an assistant principal for seven, about seven and a half
B: That's great. That must be quite an experience.
G: It's wonderful. I enjoy working with children.
B: And you get to talk to students of all age groups in your school.
G: Yes. We, the schools that I was in previously, I was there for about
seven years, and we had an _classy that included children
from six months to three years. We had an early admission class that
included the three and four-year olds. And kindergarten classes. We
had the first through sixth grade classes ._ ...rf..
B: I see. Well, as you know, students a minority groups, seem to have
special problems/mainly because schools were not equal in days gone
braard sometimes they need special help, /ort of like the Head Start
Program and other programs) to seeMoe f put them up to th evei where they
can compete successfully with other students. AN I was interested to
2 LUM 198 A
know that you have some Lumbee students over hereias while aur
problems are not unique, I am sure that we must have some, you know.
G: Yes'. I've found that with most minority groups there are some
problems, and I think that's the advantage of the Program and
the Head Start Program., -Be e g number of the families have the
mother as the head of the family. She's usually the breadwinner and
the person who has to rear the children. Consequently, she doesn't
have time and some of them don't have the oe to give the children
during their pre-school years. These programs help to bring the
children up. I wouldn't'say to a level of parents who are very
educated, /ut it does help the children to make better progress.
Because I feel that with most children, it's a lack of experience that
holds them back. Sometimes it's a lack of having a positive concept
of self that holds them back.
B: Umrhum. That is interesting. We want wewm B to explore that a
bit further. Excuse me, go right ahead.
G:- tIa, as you said before, just recently the textbooks, and even the
teaching material, began to include children of all groups
G: Up until that time, there was a number of distorted ideas that children
received and they received them mainly from movies, because during the
time Eefore that, there'wasn't even that much television that children
could view. '
G: So consequently, there were a number of achievements that minority
groups had made that children never realized.t4t,
G: had occurred. Now with theminclud children in the
G: had occurred. Now with tI.i', them include _____ children in the
3 LUM 198 A
textbooksand including the deeds of some of their ancestors in the
textbooks, I think it gives the children a better self image. It makes
them reach for a higher goal.
G: I think one of the major things that we as minority groups need to do is
to try to work with parents, so that they can begin work with children
at an early age, teaching them not only their rights, but their
responsibilities qU5 this is where I find that we have fallen down to
G: I think with the older people in the minority groups this was something
that was stressed more in the home. Consequently, the schools did not
have tbs. as much trouble with discipline/because children were taught
respect at home. They were taught to value the things that were in
their home, also things that were not in the home.
B: I see.
G: And teachers did not have to spend as much time in disciplining them,
because they did have the cooperation of the parents.
B: You mentioned discipline what kind of discipline problems do you
11 -1 V C_
usal,;,-i i t= ..iem -wolyou among minority groups?
G: I guess the biggest thing is the lack of respect. Today's parents
seem to have a fear of correcting children early enough, and I think that
by the time that they begin to think of correcting them, it's a little
G: I've always heardithat the Catholic Church is given a child until it's.
seven and then you can take him. And I think the formative years -up to
seven, are the'years where children need to be trained. W&ge I'don't
think children should have a fear of parents, but I think if a parent
4 LUM 198 A
says something to a child they should respond in a respectable way.
I think when this isn't'done in the home, then the child doesn't feel
it needs to be done in school.
B: If the child respects the parents, they generally will respect the
G: Yes. And then there's less time is taken with the discipline.
G: Ah, the parents that work with the schools, that work with the teachers
you usually find that you have very seldom have trouble with those
B: OPfi3m. Well, we don't ask anybody questions they don't want to
answer you know, anything you don't want to answer you can say "No
comment", or t'd rather not go into that", whatever. But I would
like to ask you about the relationship between the different children
from different races, for example, Lumbee children with
Black brothers and sisters. Also with their white brothers and sisters,
G: Children themselves, I think, without prejudice.
sca | 4uzenr'- e vcnr
G: I have found in working, jd at 27 there were more Lumbee Indians and
Blacks than there are in this school. I have found that a lot of times
if you listen to the things that children say, a lot of times they don't.
even realize what ktir they're saying. They don't realize the
significance of it. It's usually something that they've" either picked
up at home or they've picked up out in the street. I find that most
of the little arguments and scraps that children have are not racially
oriented. I think when they bring it in they bring it in more as
5 LUM 198 A
something to hurt And it's,somethigg that they have picked up,.
B: Like personal things.
G: Yet9ra h, I.don't think it's a personal thing aspect. 'I've Steen times
3dQlcW DSW t rl C .,
at-- where you might have y a white kid and a black kid who might
be arguing with another white kid. Or a Lumbee Indian and a black
kid that might be arguing with someone else. 'I don' t'think they pick
B: On the basis of race.
G: ....on the basis of race. I think that most of this is something that
/hev'v picked up at ho .
G: And this is where most of the work needs to be done with parents so that
they will begin to accept people as people.
B: ihamam. I have to ask you this/because I really o :A know *4= but,.
do you have more problems with Lumbee-'kids than with4, the other two
races? How do they compare?
G: Personally, I don't think there'siany difference as farnas problems are
concerned. One thing that we have to realize is that you not only have
problem children, you have problem adults. And the problem adults xx
always have to be what you would call your literate adults. We, as
adults, have to realize we have hangups. We, as adults, have to realize
that we are not always righfr1 I think that if we work with children
and get them to realize you're :not perfect, and that you can accept
criticism from the frSeve; s-as long as it's done in a respectable way,
I dont think you'll have trouble with the children.
B: Do you think things are often interpreted as being racially inspired or
rAcially motivated when in reality they are not?
6 LUM 198 A
G: Yes, I do. I think there are a lot of tqmes that when children
will have ., differences/because they are in an argument. AtaSh,
between children maybe of two racial backgrounds. You might have a
parent who will come in and say this child did sush and such a thing or
this black child did such and such a thing or the white child did such
and such a thing. I' don't think the children are thinking that way
at all. I think they are thinking that a child has done something to
them and V=J, they don'; like it
B: Right, and he's either a large maybe theymight consider a certain
individual to be a bully or something of this nature. And this
means more to them than race because
G: I think with children it does, yes.
B: Children are, are very discerning. tThey're very,.-tfbaheltar !r-
understanding. Sometimes they say things which might sound a
little bad to us, but to themI :don't 'think they take it as serious,
iPaa _iA How about the problem of, you know, children maybe not
*ag in the elementary school, but as they grow older a feeling of
belonging to your group is so important? You know......
G: Well, I think one thing we, you know how a lot of times we talk
about a melting pot, I think no matter what group you're .in, there's
a closeness to that guoup that you have. =& I think you shou d
still identify with your group,,40L the thing is to be able to identify
with your group and not be ashamed of your group and yet be able to
mix with other groups as well.
G: And this is the one thing that we have to learn to do. I think this
7 LUM198 A
happens with blackspar tE as well as Lumbee Indians. I think we
you have to accept the fact thataall people/in all groups, there
are some people who are fortunate enough to have certain things.
There are some who are not fortunate enough, and I think until
all minority groups realize that until everyone in that minority
group is able to pull himself up, none of us are going anywhere.
B: Right. I would think on a ball team when you're playing a ball
game or something like this, 8msiS6iMc some form of competition,
the race disappears,doesn't it when they're pulling for their
G: For the one goal, yes.
B: :It's very interesting to me, iti fascinating to me I know that
you mentioned the melting pot concept, and certainly this country
is one in which we do have many people from many parts of the world
all ethnic groups represented, hundreds of languages and everything
els>) '5i if we fail here, that's it. I, don't'know another place
it could be tested or proved or we could establish anything else.
But if we don't break down the barriers, whatever they are, and
promote just plain hmman understanding, I don't see how, I don't.
see any opportunity of anybody else ever doing that. We might as
well laugh it up and forget about it. But the world being as it is,
it seems to me we have to do this for the sake EZ? of survival, if
nothing else, because the most distant country in the world, for
example, is only a matter of a few miles, lifetime, from any other
point on earth. (We're close to each other and communications bring
us together and communications can do so much but there's so much,
JS a certain amount of personal contact. Do you think this is where
we fall down, more in personal contact in, for example, in communi-
cations? For example, if I hear a news commentatorax on television
8 LUM 198nA
w giving out a report I never think about that person's identity or
ethnic background or anything else. ''m interested in what they're
communicating to me.
G: Well, I think the main thing is, it isn't important even as to what
background they're from as long as you do not label the entire group
because of what has happened to one person. And this is where we
fall down. We feel that with certain groups we give them certain
labels and this is the label(wefl,2 G-P)l ,/ to the entire group.
And when I talk with children I talk with children about accepting
a child. You either like him or you doht like him, because of what
G: Not because of this John Jones or John Jones is a boy --I don't'
like him because he is a bully, hot because John Jones is white
or not because John Jones is black. And one thing that I find in
a lot of the schools that the children are picking up, is that, and
this, too, is coming from the home, is the idea of not liking someone
because they are from a certain group, or because they get an idea.
And I still say it goes back to the older people who don't want to
admit .they're wrong.
B: Do you have, 1ahy-b-y __.. situations in which there's a
display of resentment because of that? The extra care, say, that
minority groups are getting, you know.
G: 'It's in _and not necessarily in school. I
not too long ago and there was a gentleman there who
was, said he was an admitted WASP, that felt that by 1982 America
would be communist. And then as I talked with him I realized what
he was saying. Because his idea was that most of the help was going
to the minority groups. But if you listen on TV the other night, you
9 LUM 198 A
heard them say that4iu; among the people who are starving right
here in America, and I know I went to a Democratic Convention
not too long ago, about four or five years ago, and actually
seventy percent, I think they said at that time were people who
were in the poverty area were not of what we would call the minority
groups as they are identified today. You'll find that in Appalachia
those are whites that are there and you find any number of them.
So when you think of the minority groups you think of all groups,
because America has all groups here that are starving and in need
G: They need clothing, they are not trained, A A A A A _
and are not able to read or write.
B: Right. You, ah,... How about the relationships would you say that
white and Lumbee students get along, work better generally than
say black and white or L6mbee and white?
G: I don't think I could /A I d o\ AAd/colAd say any more
B: Or there isn't that much difference?
G: I can't see that much difference myself. Maybesit's because I
Zgi have never noticed it kx that much. (inaudible)
B: Well, if you've)never noticed it, that's good.. That means if it
isn't there, and then you appreciate
G: Well maybe I wouldn't say that it isn't'there. Maybe it's that, just
that I haven't experienced it. And in working with children, I
have found that all children, yof-trktif as I said, children are
children and they either like someone or they'don't like someone.
I don't think when it comes to an argu ment/if they are trying to get
out they might use a racial name. But I still say it's something that
10 LUM 198 A
they pick up from home more than anything else. I can remember
school -ule ny- svCVr
once at = going into the classroom and there was an argument
between two Lumbee Indians, one was blonde And he was so
And the one with the blonde hair was
and he called him a half-breed. To me, you know,
to see it wasn't that he, it was just
the words he had heard. Because actually, if you put the two
together I guess the other ki ds would figure Wayne would fit
more into that category than he would. And I don't think it was
that he thought of it in that way. It was just that he was hitting
outp at that time he was ang-rhe thought that he wanted to
say something that he thought might hurt/and he said it.
B: im=Sam. Do yo think us, do you think minorities pupils are more
sensitive, say as black students and Lumbee studentsdo you think
they're more sensitive to remarks perhaps than other students?
G: Yes, I believe they are. I think they have different ways of
trccr .n I think that; ag2d this is the one thing
that we have to have our children understand diri I think
sometimes we have very "thin skins" if you want to use the word,
concerning some things. Sometimes I think things are said and
maybe at the time it's said no ne is thinking of it in that manner,
but being as a minority you have a tendency to
And it's according to how you handle it or how
are the children going to handle it that makes the difference.
But I think when children learn that, as ma used to say,"What
you've got in your head", they're going to
And as they begin to value education more and begin to realize
11 LUM 198 A
that with an education and with perseverance they can move and
they can help themselves and to help their
school. And this is what
B: Of course, children are pretty smart. They have enough intelligence
ashu they can sieze on things like this on occasion, can't they?
G: Well, no. Children do this even in the family.
B: They're human.
G: Yes, they're, well, children have a tendency to be able to really
see through....children can see through adults better than adults
can see through adults.
B: I believe you're right.
G: And uh, you take even the i 15 in the home it's the mother
and father that lets them do so. They were willing to pit one
against the othe) say, for instance, if one wants to go out,
they go to the one they think will let them go out.
B: Well, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I have a niece
who is ,-S has an IQ of 186/and she is ten years old. The
teacher wrote on her report card, "We need a special school for
Kim." She's smarter than +4L fref .'T She doesn't
get really challenged in her group. Consequently, she has all this
time on her hand T- 4,L .
G: Is she an only child?
G: See what happens when there's an only child was an only child,
cnu you kaxa are the center of attention. The adults will
take time with you and lx as I tell a lot of parents with an only
child, a lot of the things that an only child picks up a child that
comes from a larger family doesn't. There's an instance which is a
girl, and she's going to put on a blue dress, long before school age,
12 LUM 198 A
and her mother says,"Let's put on a pair of blue socks." She comes
to school knowing blue. Whereas another child who hasn't had-if.,
this attention or these opportunities, doesn't even know what the
colors are. Their teacher has to teach them. So that's why, really
I don't put too much _lh inlo intelligence tests because
intelligence- tests is really a measure of experience. If the
child hasn't the experience, he's going to test lower-on the
B: Right, and of course, all those tests are devised on the basis of
the main population.
B: And they don't take into account the special background.
G; No. Because the where they
used to give you a cup and a bowl and something else and
ask you to select something to go with it. And unless
the child comes up in a home where the table is set for meals, they
would have no way of knowing that a cup goes with a saucer or where
the fork and knife and spoon goes. jfoesn't mean the child isn't
intelligent, it means that he just hasn't had that experience.
B: g Do you work with other programs aside from the Lumbee
G: You mean in school?
B: Special Q4Vclr.2._ you know.
G: No, I haven't.
G: I think it works very well for the children. I think it helps them
to, it helps to give them that little push. Every child wants to
13 LUM 198 A
G: And with the extra help that they get it helps them to be able to
Y/y/ i/^^-/y/4\n,- be more successful, because nobody wants to fail.
B: That's right.
B: That's a good thing .
G: A lot of the frustrations I think come from children who experience
Sa / a lot of failure.
G: Because if a child comes in our school, or gets in with a class,
where there's children who have had a lot of experiences, and this
child hasn't, all he has to do is to respond a couple of times,
and find 's wrong and then he begins to fool his ownself.
B: We've had this experience with l Indian children when I took
part in the national study made by the United States Office of
Education, made a special study of Indian education in 1968 and
it was very strongly recommended that wherever possible, if children
were ah e to work with somebody in their own group, they would
feel more confidence in things like this. How do you feel about
G: Well, any time a child can look to someone in his own group and
see that he has been a success it's an inspiration for hm.
G: Ta and it means it gives him something that he would like to look
for--maybe not be exactly what tha t person is, but it at least
lets him know that there .-at'rteiLe is a possibility that
14 LUM 198 A
he can achieve for himself.
B: Whether it's true or not, do you feel that V14Y minority children
have a tendency to feel that kbEir more understood by
somebody from their own group? wkod-Pai Z y A hat I'm
asking you is does the, do you think the feeling is there? Whether
there's any personal feeling ,,?,.Aj^
G: (inaudible) X seems they have a tendency to feel that
someone who is in their own group understands them better.
B: Well, education is certainly a challenging thing, isn't it?
G: It certainly is. And it changes every day.
B: More complicated?
G: No, I think that the main thing is that you have to realize that
everything is changing and you can never, you never reach the
point where you can say, "I have iA" But it's an ongoing thing,
and the more you learn, the more you need to learn. And I used
to always say that if I had children, it wouldn't be so much what
I wanted them to do, it's just that whatever they do they be good
at it. And I think we put so much stress on academic education)
that we don't realize that there are other areas that children
can excel in. You take the automobile mechanic. He has to go
back to school every so ofteq to keep up with the newer cars.
And it's the same thing in every field. A'd- the main thing is
for every child to realize that every job is important, every job
contributes to the welfare of everyone, and whatever you do be good
at what you are doing.
15 LUM 198 A
G: Everyone doesn't have to be a _44,doctor. Everyone doesn't
have to be a lawyer or a teacher.
G: Because if anjay when any group goes on strikelitVffects all
the other groups.
B: Do you have anything you would, you could suggest AJ to start
overcoming these deficiencies among our children?
G: I think that we could 4w4 .get the parents to the extent, you see,
we have a lot of the children have fathers or parents, that were
But you have to realize tht some of these parents came up through
an era when they were not welcomeq
( LL'_ nr-cs more parent education classes for
their parents that aren't able to read2, ave classes that will
teach them to read and to write. Classes that will teach parents
how to fix some of their, more simple recipes they need for helping
iKahr their families, feeding their families. Classes that
will show parents how to buy O JU __for their
children. Classes that will show parents how to
'ad do things like this. And I think
as we work with the parents, get the parents attitude to change, this
would change their children.
B: Well, you've certainly been very kind to talk with us giving our
people an awful lot of your time. I certainly want to thank you
and wish you good luck and Godspeed.
G: Thank you.
16 LUM 198 A
B: I think they're very lucky to have you here.
G: Thank you.
B: This is November 11, 1974, Lew Barton interviewing for the University
of Florida's History Department's American Indian Oral History
Program. This afternoon we are favored to be right once more on
-.weff-'naw eafh, Broadway Street at the American Indian Study
Center, and with me is a lovely young lady who's kindly consented
to .give me an interview. I want to ask her if she'll tell us her
name and position.
W: Jeanette Walker and I work for the Indian Education Program as a
B: Um hmm. Now you work very closely, very intimately with this
program, don't you?
W: Yes sir, I deal with the tutors. When I speak of the tutors, that
is, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth graders that are available to tutor
in the school. And I deal with the teachers, the principals and
the kids in the school that needs help. And I also work in the
areas if they're missing a lot of schoolI contact and find out
what the problem is. -. d-as much
as I possibly can.
B: That's great. You must enjoy this because I}, I know you like to
yoiu like people, don't you?
W: I love people)and I love talking to people/and there's another
thing that drives me to do it and that's I'm doing something for
my people. And when I go to talk to these people about their kids
missing school or their child's particularly low in reading or math/
S1LUM 198 A
I tell them this, that this is our problem. The reason our
race of people haven't accomplished more is because of a lack of
W: Because some of the parents that I contact can't even write their
own name. And I explain to them how it important it is for their
children to be able to do this.
B: Do you come from the Magnolia \1A ChO) in Robeson County?
W: Yes, I went to Magnolia High School until: I was in the ninth grade.
At that time, unfortunately, my mother didn't no longer send me
to schooje"_ that was fifteen year ago,
and thentwo yeaoago/I went to night school and took my basic
education C S5e
W: And I am still working on my English where that I hopefully I'll
have that by December.
B: Your English is just fine as far as I'm concerned. Would you tell
me something about your family? ME_, may I ask you how old you are?
B: cJfa-re _ypur parents were, are they still living?
W: Yes, my mother's still living and _her health, she
just turned sixty-seven years old. And when we lived in North
Carolina/we were very poor. I can remember/like in the winter
times/we lived off of ten dollars a week. And as a child, I never
received, even received a baby doll for Christmas. I was thankful
just for a handful of candy, because some Christmases that was all
D'JlC) 4 dto^.
18 LUM 198 A
W: -A today I'm trying to widen the gap for my kids hoping to give
them more, but not too much so that they won't be spoiled.
B: -a>s Who was it you married?
W: John A. Walker, and he's originally from N&rth Carolina, too.
B: -a*am. And how many children are there?
W: I have two girls: one of them is 18 and other one is 8.
B: What are their names?
W: The oldest one is Dawn ,, and she's in the eighth grade,
and she's a B student in junior high this year, and my youngest one
is Rhonda Lynn, and she's in the third grade and she's 8 years
B: TVemt r. You have a lovely family there. You just enjoy working
with a program like this, don't you?
W: Yes, very much. ES like I said before, I enjoy doing something
for my people. This is the basic has reason why that I am working
on the program. Because I'm able to do something for my people.
Before, )1 I haven't worked in seven years until this job was
asked, I was approached about this job, /nd, , I really love it.
W: And I see thleed for it because, I knew these kids and I
get to understand them, get to know them, and see the need that
they need ssomedy to help them. Some of them just need somebody
to be kind to them--show them that they care about what they're
doing and how they're doing in schoohbecause a lot of times I
find that the parents don't even take the initiative and go see
what class their child's in. Some of the parents can't tell no
difference 4, you know, tjh all they can tell me is
what, where the child's supposed to be in, and that's the extent of it.
19 LUM 198 A
B: s. Yeah. Well then I'm so glad the program's going as well
as it is here, because this is one of the big problems of integration,
since integration is inevitable. Some way the educational gap has
to be bridged #h in order that everybody will be taught nearly
on the same level as possible. And there's so many, so many
problems simply because
,s their schools were unequal for so long, in other words, deprived
of equal education in spite of the law that said equa L j ,,. ..
Do you run into any other particular problems?
W: Z? yes) I run into problems, like, sometimes the kids are not
certain of their identity. One particular boy I rt into just a
couple weeks ago when I was going into the classroom trying to find
out how many Indians were in the classroonda I askedand the boy
didn't put his hand u o later on the teacher come to meand she
told me that he was a Locklear. And of course, yhen you run across
Locklear you know right away he's a Lumbee from North Carolina.
W: So, ah, he said that he didn't know whether he should put his hand up
or not because he was living with foster parents. And also because
of the intermarriage situation--sometimes the kids are not certain.
They don' now what they are or what they should bay they are.
B: Interracial marriages, do these take place frequently between, between
Lumbees and blacks and Lumbees and whites or one or the other?
20 LUM 198 A
W: Well, 3., the racial marriage between blacks I haven't run
across any cases where there was marriage, but I have run across
kids that are black and Indian. But there, where the races are
intermarriage is mostly with tht whites/because when the Indians
mix with the colored it's always undercover/and it's a big, a
great big secret
W: And then of course this confuses the kid
B: These are illegitimate children, no doubt.
W: Yes, and this confuses the child when he goes to schoolbecause he
don't know whether to say whether he's black or IndiM and in the
family with the white kids, they don't know whether they, they're
register theirself or tell you they're black or white. In fact,
I've run across cases where there was maybe several different
things, like Germans, Indian and colored/and a little mixture of
all. And the child was just mixed up--he didn't know who he was.
I think this is sad when we get in a state like this.
B: Oh it certainly is. RExxkBnx Is this, does this seem to be a
W: Well, not necessary ily iN with the whites and the Indians is
widespread here in Maryland. You find quite a few of the young
men here come to Baltimore marrying white girls.
B: Utrhmnr. Do you think it's more frequently Indian guys marrying
white girls or the other way around? Or is it about the same?
W: I really couldn't saWicS-, fma. from the kids that I know in
school mostly the father is marrying the white girl the majority
of the time.
B: I see. How dotbj-,b do most of our people in this area feel
21 LUM 198 A
about interracial marriages?
W: Well, they accept ih -* BE ..ah--t.BR ...... There's no
big problem on that. Of course, now you'll find some of your older
guyite, men from North Carolina who'd say "Well, I prefer my
daughter or my son to marry Indians. But since he was raised here
in Maryland and there not that many decent Indian boys available,
i_ I don't feel ;e that choosey any more." But they would
B: If they had it, it was a matter of preference they would prefer to
be in their own interest. M but, I know what you mean. Do you
plan to go back to North Carolina to live some there?
W: I want to, and then I don't want toibecause in Maryland, there's
more opportunity. Even, !teBgi, say for I was disability. There's
more help available for me/and the people here aren't as prejudiced/
,, ,^,,_ this is the way I find it, as they are in North
Carolina about the system . and where to get help and
aiding you. And also there's more jobs available hereland if you
are out of work, there's still more help that you can get here
then you can in North Carolin.
W: But someday, maybe, I will venture back to North Carolina.
B: -fEnldmr. Do you visit occasionally?
W: Ah, yes we go down about twice, three times a year. And always
B: Ah, how do the children feel about home, "
W: Well, both of my kids were raised here and they like North
Carolina, but they only like it for a week or two at the time.
22 LUM 198 A
and they're ready to come back.
W: And, too, I also think in the terms that if I would go back there)
the schools don't have a s much to offer as the schools here....
W1 sss Because I, uh, see this too by working as a aide. I.*s
run across a lot of kids who come from North Carolina schools, and
I can see what they're doing here in schools compared to there. Of
course the North Carolina School System is coming up.
B: Yes,-tam \. ,, f,,
W: It's more advanced today than it was five, six years ago.
B: Right. Do yodithink the Indian community is increasing in size
here or is it remaining about the same?
W: \,6 /,\ ,. Well, you see, it's about the same because you-f0i .
A4. get the young people coming upland the old people,=ty. are
moving back home building their homes back in North Carolina. They
have been here for several years. They seem to always wander back
to North Carolina.
B: Yeah. I wonder what there is back there that draws them?
W: I guess that good living and soul food.
B: Uh, do people still, how do people feel about good old collard
greens ^, -, N .. Foods like, I'm a
vegetable and beets man, myself. How about collards?
W: Well, collards you can get plenty of them here if you know the
right places to go and find them. But it seems like they're just
not as good as those in North Carolina. Even like you sit down
to the table and eat homemade biscuits, you know. Even though you
made them right here in Marylandjand you made them yourself yo-trman
_aieake it seer like it justs tastes better at home.
23 LUM 198 A
And there's another thing that people that come from North
Carolina, North Carolina is always home. They never say
Baltimore is home. They always refer....
B: Baltimore is their home away from home.
W: Yes. And even my kids, when I say "home", you know, they always
think of North Carolina, too, because.,-j they hear me say it
so much, you know?
B: JJnm-mJ- ] how much more family do you want? Do you want, do
you like large families or you like Srf\} (rty ?
W: Well, the way inflation is today and everything, I think two's
enough for me and my family
&s-!---=Kiff'=hmm. l G
W: I watx11E mxmxfaK don't want to deprive them of anythingland I
want to be able to give them a good education--something that I
haven't received yet, but I'm working on. And I feel that more
in the families that that's opportunity that they will have
.-6 4im--" ni T miu. I ,,- --"**'*'*"""''""
W: I suppose maybe one of these .days I might adopt a boy or something
like that. I'M love to have a boy, but at this point I can't.
B: Well, that's certainly become an expensive proposition of rearing
families. Back home, y,L -, / yin Robeson when there
were so many farms/t:iE it was no problem bringing children up/
because you raised most of the food you ate.
W: TU-wmn. And too, __ now when I go down
S, ,,. the grocery stores, the grocery stores,
their food seems higher to me, ity and I guess maybe you could
sum that up too, because people don't buy as much--they raise
their own. Sort of like, even simple things like milk. I've
84 LUM 198 A
found that it's higher in North Carolina than it is in the state
of Maryland. SoE,
B: I guess if everything was balanced out it probably, might be about
the same, _Ea. I'm not sure of that. It's too high in both places,
W: Yeah. And getting higher all the time. And, of course, they did
a thing on television, VW a couple nights ago, where they was
talking about it doesn't even, *( you don't even save to have a
freezer any more/because if they give you the prices on how much
it costs to run a freezer each month. So, according to the consumer
report, you're not saving any money by buying quantities and buying
a deep freezer.
B: \-/6 ^\/ / y\i Actually, electricity had gone up
tremendously. For example, I lived in an apartment, just me, and
5IL I'm lucky if Iget out for twenty-four or twenty-five dollars
a month. And I don't have all that much in there. I don't even
run a television most of the time. ^ ^- ,
I,- /% A/\/- . But I do run an air conditioner in the
summer time. It really costs.
W: ._ well like, mr-M my husband, he's a truck driver
and he bee gone most of the time, and just me and the two kids,
we still eat around twenty-five or thirty dollars worth of food
a week. '
W: And, 4,of course if he was home, I guess it would be a little
bit higher than that. And,ggg so, 0B I guess, iEfl one reason
why I have such a high grocery bill I believe in eating one on
one as long as I can afford it.
25 LUM 198 A
W: .g I'm goingrs4 feed them myself. I'm not too much on pork
but, of course, I was raised on pork.
B: -mi-kri. I love pork.
W: Yeah, that's what they.....
B: It's not good for you, I don't think.
W: Well,, L ^ when I do a lot of pork eating when I
go home Christmas and they're killing hogs. Boy, do I enjoy that.
You get down there and start killing hogs 1ik you know, like you
used to do. Make some lard and chit..,Ceana, cracklings...,
W: ....and pudding and that's when I eat my pork. And get some
sweet potatoes going, you know, that's really 0OC I like
B: You're making me hungry. That's one thing people believe in doing.
whether they're North Carolina or northern --eating plenty,
B: Our people particularly?
W: I found, c there's a little discipline around the church there
for a while, ^/ 44 referring to Baptists, the Baptist house.
In fact, they were heavy eaters.
B: Oh, me. Somebody was joking with me about Indian women, their
appearance. "I'll tell you ona thing, they sure
have pretty figures." said, "y4k 5E h, they do until
they get to be about forty. And then itjggh, spreads all over the
place." this was somebody I could just
joke with and say most anything. We were just kidding, you know?
26 LUM 198 A
Ah, but ah, I guess we do have, do we have a tendency to overeat?
B: ft% I don't think so. 4 I know my girlfriendgshe can eat as
much as I can. But, of course, now we get this old habit
END SIDE ONE
s27 LUM 198 A'
R: We were talking about food and we were rudely interrupted by the
tape running out. I .hut fl, of course, what I said a while
ago about Indian women, tf, you certainly don't prove that. You
seem to be a very active person, 1, and your weight is in the
right proportions and everything. How do you manage that?
W: Well, I stay active. I do a lot work by walking on my job during
the day. And, of course, two nights a week I play volleyball in
the wintertime. In the summertime, I play baseball and we have
practices two nights a week and we play our games on Saturdays
W: And I alsofio, am involved with the kids, S2i teaching them how
to play and baseball, and, of course, I want them to be good
sportsmen, too, .53 I think a lot of women as being able to play
sports very well
W: AndrE I think that has a lot to keeping py weight down, too,
because when I first start out the season I'm a little bit chubby,
so4Ft I practice a while and have to run half a mile before or
after the practices, just to kind of chimmai- help me lose about
five pounds that I've picked up during the winter months. But, of
course, 4 playing volleyball in the winter months you're not, you
don't have as much running to do as you do with baseball. So
therefore, I tend to pick up a little. But 33-I weight's pretty
well stable. I only gain five to seven pounds and I gain it and
then I lose and then I pick it up again.
B: l you're on the girls softball team?
W: Yes, I play for Water's Edge--one of the leagues tvaigrf, where I live.
28 LUM 198 A
I live down in which is in Baltimore County. And
we play several different teams. Actually we have msoes sixteen
games a year.
B: How- e>rt ijs this an all Indian girls team?
W: S., no. There's only four girls that are Indian on it. And when
I first started/there was only one Indian and that was myself. And
then of course, I've recruited some more Indian girls to play
on the CUrT. But, of course, now, the city team is center,
American Indian Study Center, they have-"i a women's league too.
B: -4;BCMM. Well this must be a lot of fun.
W: It is. I've really enjoyed it. It gives me one thing to look
forward to in the afternoons, and, of course, that exercise is
very good for you.
B: Oh,yes. Have you always been athletic?
W: t0 yes, I have played baseball in school and E, played volley-
ball with the school teachers and of course, we got
around on the head by the school teachers being 1k 31x than me6
a -_pii I've always liked any kind of outdoor sports.
..a even when it comes to working, I'd rather work n the outside
an ay than go in the house and work. I can remember as a kidimom
used to tell me to do something, you know, to help her cook or
something, and I says "No. I'll go feed the chickens for you."
Just to get out of the house.
B: Oh. Do you like to swim?
W: %L, no. I never learned to swim, because when we lived in North
Carolina there wasn't anywhere close by and of course, we didn't
have cars, ,. so I wasn't able to ever learn to swift )E I've
been tempted to take a couple swimming lessons but I never got around
29 LUM 198 A
to it because4rf. the night that they give swimming lessons out
at the Y where I live, that's the night I'm playing volleyball or
i 1 baseball.
B: Right. '* dp your folks still live in the Magnolia area in
North Carolina, some of your folks?
W: "I, my one aunt still live down there across from main,$a from
Mount Church. U but my mother HX is living up here
now, and my two sisters are living in Baltimore.
B: TEim. Where were you in 1968?
B: Were you living here then?
W: Yes, I was...
B: Alright. Well, I was over at Magnolia School making a survey
at that time. I talked to John Gregory Peck r y the United
States Office of Education/and I just wondered if I didn't see
W: No, ];. my last year over there was in l .
W: It was the last year I went to Magnolia. Of course, I've been
promising myself ever since I moved to Baltimore that one of these
years I was going to go back and visit some of the teachers and,=,
see how they were doing. But I've never got down there on a school
day that I could go visit. t
B: Well, do you find that your ILadiaess is an asset or a liability?
B: Or you don't see any difference?
W: To me, I don't find any difference because the less people that
30 LUM 198 A
I deal withggathey take you af face value, W4 your personality,
how you're able to talk to people, how you treat people and how
you feel about people.
B: Ah, how do your as..your children, well, we've talked about
them already. They, they don't seem to have any particular problems
W: 'Ta o, because my children, i,-t-ey are very prougthey tell sn
people that they are Indians. But as far as people recognizing
and picking them out as Indians and in the schools they go to
they're the onliest Indians in two particular schools. 45a.
B: It's something of a novelty then. Maybe they're looked up to a
little bit, don't you think?
W: i, no, not necessarily, because Indian history hasn't been taught
in those schools as yet. But, of course, they are doing studies
and they are going to recommend certain7t4, materials for the
following year to be presented to L educate the non-Indian and
the Indian about Indian history.
B: brflar. t., there's such a little bit about us in the textbooks.
It's almost as if we didn't exist, you knovi9 7Z ..
"4 -Lin has always been a little surprising
0,he Indians are the people who really fathered
this country. Our self-image is really changing perhaps.
W: Yeah, I can see it changing now because 4t a year ago^fL, people
wasn't even aware that there was Indians in Baltimore. Of course,
there are still some people I run across today that aren't aware
of Indians being in Baltimore. And, of course, I work at the
City Fair and I'm dressed in an Indian ceremonial dress when I
work down there and I have people coming up to me and saying,
31 LUM 198 A
"Are you Indian?" And I say, "Yes". And a lot of people say that
I'm not Indian because I don't look like a television Indian. And
also in the schools,ag& the kids ask me what I am because they
can't figure it out, you know. They know I'm not white and they
know I'm not back so they ask meland,J;W, I give them a little
bit of Indian Histor@ the ones that do ask, As they're very
surprised/because I don't look like a television Indian.
B: -Tes6. T, well; people don't realize generally that W, Indians
vary from group to group. Geography has a lot to do with that.
W: Jea. I have, this past Friday, I had to give a lecture about
the Lumbees. Of course, I stuck right ) stayed right on Lumbees.
I didn't wander off to another tribe of Indiansibecause I knew
more about Lumbees than I do any other tribe. And I spoke to
about twenty-five or thirty peoplfy whko-wasTyah, ghese were
senior citizens which their age run from sixty up. An--they
some of those___ ._ .ITni -T.Z("S of
course, some of them waS-and-ahey asked me a little bit about
the Indian history also. And I was explaining to them about why
the Lumbees looked a lot different than,say the Mohawk tribe, for
instance. A lot of Mohawks, they all psri look just alike to me.
Ai but VJ_A- we come back to the Lumbees and "'1 kind of
complexions, appearance, size. Of course, like my daughter, for
instance, she has blue eyes. And me or my husband have
have blue eyes.
W: And a lot of people ask me, "Why does she have blue eyes?" 1AZIM
I go back to this beginning of history.
"-a"B S mm. Blue eyes have been cropping up ever since 1584.\
32 LUM 198
B: And there were some of them here then.
W: Yes. Well, you find, like, I've noticed like with the Carters,
you find very, a lot of those with blonde hair and blue eyes.
B: i;m-krm. I wanted to ask you about.,i some other activities
that take place in different parts of the country. ?4 for example,P4L
woman's liberation movement. Do you think our women have been
affected by i 9
B: /omen libbers?
W: g, not with the Indians. I don't think so. Of course,-ds
my husband has a big joke about it. He says thatQ*, the white
man come to this country and ruined the Indian ladiesbecause the
the Indian ladies used to do all the wor
W: And, g of course, he teases all the guys about ruining them.
B: VM*rmi. my woman still be doing
all the work. -if I think they advocate some good things like,
such as equal pay for equal work. I'm for that.
W: Yes, I agree with that. If I doSh.-a man's job and he's getting
a certain salary for it and if I'm going to do it, I want the
W: If I can do it as good. And I do feel in certain cases that a
woman can do the same job as a man.
B: Absolutely. How about changing the name, you know, where, instead
of saying "Mrs." you say "Ms" in absence of 'Mrs." you say 's"?
W: Well, I think that's taking away from the woman myself.
B: You think that's a loss?
33 LUM 198 A
B: m--Ipm. I believe you're a good Indian wama= wife. You know.rmu
""."i"^ among our people, we have what is known at the patriarchial
form of family structure, which means that /4,6 At the father
is head of the house. Oa, who has the last word at your house?
W: Well, when he's at home, he usually has the last word. But, of
course, like I say he's a truck driver and he's gone most of the
time. So I take care of most of the problems, the household
expense, the paper work. Of course, he's in business for hisself,
and I'm his secretary. But, of course, he hasn't started paying
me secretary's wages yet.
B: Does he have long, very long runs?
W: Yes, his last trip he was out on he was gone twelve days. Of course,
he goes to the West coast practically eEV,, once a week.
B: -Um-imhWitw .what do they do when they go out? Do they,=*r, take
one driver along and get some sleep along the way, or what?
W: Yes, there are, his truck has a sleep r it's got the average size
or twin bed. And he always has a driver and g they like drive
six hours/and then they switch oqad one drives six hours and they
only stop 2.e to gas and eqa'S, aM then they go out and drop
the load in California and some days they mayAn, drop the same
day and pick up another load. Sometime they may have to stay over
before they get another load to come back.
B: They may get orders to go elsewhere before they return, is that
W: Sometimes, but not too often. Most of the time it's a straight
load. But, of course, this twelve day load, he went Detroit and
from there he went to California.
-R~-;. e -$If,'lKB
34 LUM 198 A
B: Welly/AM that makes it a little uncomfortable for yo@Q
Is there something irregular about their schedule/
or does he have some idea in advance howtyyaqi what his
schedule is to be/or may some runs be longer than others?
W: Well, when he calls them up they usually tell him where he's going.
And, of course, he never knows until he gets a call where he's
going and how long he'll be. Because you never knowjz how
long it's going to take to get unloaded on some job. But the
.aaagver average time is usually BB seven to eight days. And
bkakffxhkKrKmqpaxK Unless he goes,- = to 110, and thenleaves
and goes to sa, like when he went to Detroit and then went to
W: It's a little bit longer and he never knows exactly what day he's
going to be here and what day he's going to be back.
Bj Right. JAh, do you resent him? Do you, do you resent him doing
this type of work do you think?
W: No, I don't resent it. I didn't want him to take he
worked in a factory for nineteeiears before he decided to drive
his truck, and I was against it from the start. But, of course,
that was what he wanted
W: So I go along with what he wants, and, of course, I was still not
satisfied with it, but this is what he chose and he's the one got
to do it, so it's harder on him than it is me.
B: Is it that he, is he making out well' /-h e/
35 LUM 198 A
W: 4 yes, he was making out very well. But, right now, at this
point, .3, things are going downhill for him. And, of course,
a, I think I understand why it's going downhill because he got
saved and he's talking religion to a lot of people that he meets.
Of course, normally, truck drivers don't be at home very often to
go to church. And so, A talking to them about God,
ycw trnny A., one man confessed and 4B, they were able to
get him mifs d to confess that Jesus Christ was his personal
savior. And at this point, h, things, you know, I feel that
this devil's coming working against him. Making things hard for
him. But, of course, he's strong minded and he won't let anything
stand in his way.
B: I see. S.iin other words, you think people are not used to seeing
a truck driving,jg, evangelist?
W: E, no.
B: Missionary you know.
W: Not in this part. In the west they also have two or three trucks
that are evangelists. And they just run from one truck stop to
another talking about Christ and giving Bibles out and...
B: Hey, that's something.
W: And they also have a magazine they interview people and write up
stories, t2, their raFaS m. confessions they write in this maga-
zine. But, of course, I've never known them to come here yet.
B: s., pu don't let all the stories you hear about truck drivers
bother you, do you?
W: Vg no I don't. Becaus4eg0.,xSSh, as my husband being a truck driver/
I've learned a lot from him about the truck drivers and =-gr, it's
not like you hear.
36 LUM 198 A
B: well, I'm sure of that. UI._people just like to have .,S
something to let their imagination go. They figure a guy's off
from home for three or four days he can pick up some lady folks
anid give them a ride and things like this.
W: iw. hrl_. Well, there are guys that does that but they were the
same guys that would do it if they were at home.
B: Right. I think you're not only a good Indian wife but also a
very reasonable wife.
W: Because you take somekm#y man who's going to pick up somebody out
there on the road, if he gets a hilf a chance he's going to do it
right here at, when he's at home. He's going to tell his wife
he's at one place when he's going to be another place. I don't
think it necessarily has" to be a truck driver to be this way.
B: There's some Ax kind of program which came on this morning and
the statement was made in this program A. 45 the
question was asked rather, =f "Do you think a woman can break
up a good marriage?" All theee of the people who were asked
said "No". ^ they had a good marriage to b&gin
with, then there was no chance of anybody breaking it up. What
would have been your answer if you had been on that program?
W: Mine would have been "No", because I think the woman herself
breaks up the marriage. Where the husband breaks up the marriage,
on their own, ft because I don't think that if the man is happy
and in a good marriage, he's got to be happy. He doesn't wander
off, unless destroy, gives him reason to wander off where _
B: JsiaS. S I don't know if women libbers would like you but I sure
37 LUM 198 A
W: Thank you.
B: I know your husband sure does. ', i other words, your concept of
SZk, family iiih is the way it used to be--not after, not what
women libbers might think it should be. Well, perhaps there are
some things that need reviving. J.l, Jhe old double standard, of
course, that's not, that's no good for anybody. t 1pt 106, I am
certainly glad, I don't think that women libbers have J reached
your area of influence in this community very much.
W: No, because I feel that if you have a good marriage, you can, and if
you don't and want to make it a good marriage, you just pamper
your husband. Because all husbands are like babies and you can
treat them so and let him feel like he's the king and treat him
that way. And you've got it made.
B: Ohi. That's interesting.
W: Of course, now you can get your side across every once in a while,
too, But you hale to be allittle bit clever to do it.
B: =S aa Well, women are clever, -", many women are. I think there's
a lot to that and I think you are a good woman. Do you think you'll
go right on working in the program?
W: 2M, gt present I have applied for a better job and I have an inter-
view on Wednesday. And this job Q, hasprk, more to offer me.
And it's a step higher for me. Thgxuxis position, V, than the
one I have now.
B: Well, .i I imagine
W: l;eh, if I get the job, I'll miss the kids that I've been working
with, and especially the tutors that I've workdd with. "tC__
ah? in the future, v, this is5 like I said, a step to something
38 LUM 198 A
B: -rabahu. go you work with any teen agers?
W: --1a yes, the^SVk girls, B h, I work along with are the high
school girls that I bring them into the schools and tell them
which kids, students in the elementary school that needs tutoring
help, and I do a lot with teen agers.
B: Do they come to yo ith their personal problems?
W: Some of them do. We have a very good relationship. In fact, J
I try to talk to them on their basisand I do this with the
elementary kids, too. When I talk to them, I talk to them on their
level, what they understand and by doing this I've just established
a good relationship with them.
B: hell, that's good. Well,-'t f.m- I'd like to thank you so very
much for giving us this interview. Is there anything you'd like
to say to other people along these lines? AelSh. People working
with young people, it must be fery rewarding experienc6"e"wb
W: It is very rewarding, especially when you, like one child
since we started working with her in reading, and ihe was on the
third grade level. And this, that was last year, and this year
she is on the sixth grade level and that makes me feel just very
rewarding. That's more rewarding that sorry that I get. And
anyone who is working with children/ ., ^, A, and they
don't have a good relationship,,-E-t they should analyze theirselfs
and try and think from that child's viewpointand talk to him
from his viewpointland deal with it from that end of it.
B: Instead of imposing our ideas ust listen and let the child talk
B: Instead of imposing our ideas just listen and let the child talk.
39 LUM 198 A
W: Yes, and, of course, you can always get your ideas in there--
kind of slip them in, 04 a little bit clever.
B: That's sort of like my approach. Of course, you perhaps first
find out what the problem is, you know, identity the problem.
=W, AiK I think is where relationsUips between older people and
younger people break down so often. Ah, what do you think of
the generation gap?
W: Well, I think where the generation gap comes in is that we tend
to think and act as adults even with our childrenland when we're
dealing with them, not go back to their level1 and remember and
think of it from their terms-and you have to analyze those thoughts.
B: I see. You think young people are any better today than they
were when we were kids? Do you think they've changed any or are
they better or worse kx what do yolink?
W:: I just say that they are a little bit more educated today than
they were back in our days. They know more, and they're more,
a little bit more grown up for their age compared to our age and
sometime they hage a tendency to think about how we acted at eight
years old. But, of course, now you've got to compare a how they
are acting compared to another eight year old today1instead of how
we acted or what we knew at that age.
B: I remember a show that Danny Thomas was actingiseveral years ago.
And he, of course, he was playing the part of a father And there
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was a daughter involved and there was a young man that came to
court the girl in the story. And 1a0, his wife said t im, A. -
he didn't like the guy, see. Well, you shouldn't feel bad because
o J E. he's just no worse than you were when you were coming
up. In fact, he's just like were. He thought about that for a
minute, jumped up and said, "I'll kill him! I'll kill him!"
I thought that was veryunny. 44AA A^ ^ 4 ,
That's about the attitude, isn't it. A -wer, wherFe get--eer
W: Basically,'t, things like that, you
want to forget and you don't
W: But of course that child
still has to have his own experiences, too. And you can` tell
him not to do something c-
wBe you have to use a different approach other than telling to do
something he can't do/because that makes him want to do it
W: -B yes, 3 they started out very low scales, in around
the fifth grade, and, of course, the higher up they get in school
the more advanced it is
W: Yes, the counselors start 1i in the city
they don't have counselors)but in the.-- county schools where my
kids go to, they do have counselors in the elementary schoolb.ut
in the city it's ^ / in the junior high school where they
have counselors. And some of the children that have talked with
the counselors come to them with problems that should be taken to
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their parents, but they can't talk to their paren s.
W: Sg-Cr* they can trust and feel they can talk to.
W: Yes, very much. I don't think that,'M. I think it's just some-
thing they should have started a long time ago, because there was
-mM things, A 1 ___- _--_ that I didn't know
the answers to and back then .
you didn't say anything.
B: -- i -
W: And, of course, I feel by people knowing more about it
B: Right. And if somebody makes a mistake knowing it's not as bad as
making it not knowing. This is the way I feel.
B: And so what are you g6ing to tell your children? Are you going,
are you going to tell them the facts of life?
W: Well my oldest daughter, the one that's thirteen, she knows practical)
everything that there is to tell. And, of course, as new things
develop I always tell her about it.
W: And, the one that's eight years old, I take it step by step as it
arrives with her, -., because a I don't think you can, depending
on their age and their development,U"; is how much you could tell
them and when to tell them.
B: 'Mil. Some people say when they are old tmxkz enough to have
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curiosity and ask about something, this is when to tell them. Do
yod go along with this?
W: -, yes. I believe any time your child asks you a question, whether
it's sex or anything, I think you should answer. And don't give
them, J, put them off. Because if you don't, they're going to
somewhere else and get an answer and you may not like that answer
W: So, I believe in answering it, but be careful how you answer it.
B: Right. I remember when I was growing up, when I was very small
I wanted to believe in Santa Claus, I guess that was because we
were very poor. f; and when I found that people had lied to me
about Santa Claus, I was all broken up about it. 5iieaA, di
feel this way?
W: I can't recall exactly how I felt when I knew that there wasn't
a Santa Claus, agji h but of course, my kids at the.rT age now
after several years, they knew that there wasn't a Santa Claus.
%g but we still pretend and talk about Santa Claus, but they
actually know that their dad's the Santa Claus
W: But it doesn't take anything away from them I don't feel, knowing
the truth, because, tf I SBaEt think a_-V I the child is too
smart today to be lied to and I think they should know the truth.
B: Well, I want you to knww how very much I appreciate your talking
with mejand.S I should mention here that you went with me over
to make the other interview)anddjlg you've been so very helpful.
You, and Mr. Brooks, and others working on the programiand we do
want to thank you from the bottom of our hearts/and wish you good
luch and Godspeed in all that you attempt to do. you're
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a real credit to our people. I'm ver4roud of you.
W: Thank you very much. I was glad to do i anytime ,2 I can do
something for someone, like I said before, I love people and I
love talking, so that was just down my line.
B: Good, and thank you so much.
W: Thank you very much.