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Title: Interview with Geneviever Gaither/Jeanette Walker (November 11, 1974)
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Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00006823/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Geneviever Gaither/Jeanette Walker (November 11, 1974)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: November 11, 1974
 Subjects
Subject: Urban Lumbee
 Notes
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00006823
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Urban Lumbee' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: UL 17

Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
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This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

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This oral history may be used for research,
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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida










RUSS HYDEN 1 LUM 198 A



B: This is Novemberf1l, 1974." I' m Lew Barton interviewing for the

University of Florida's History Department, American Indian Oral

History Program. This afternoon we are privileged to be at the

William Packer Elementary School, number 83) and the assistant

principal has kindly consented to give us an interview. Would

you tell us something abott yourself, please me.. ',

G: My name is Geneviever Gaither. I attended public school in Baltimore

City. I received my B.S. degree from Coppins(?) Teachers College in

Baltimore. I received my master degree from New York University.

I have a certificate in TBO-teaching by objectives- where I've)ake

courses at the University of Maryland.

B: Um hmm. That's great.

G: I have been in the Baltimore City School System for twenty-eightyears.

I have been an assistant principal for seven, about seven and a half

years.

B: That's great. That must be quite an experience.

G: It's wonderful. I enjoy working with children.

B: And you get to talk to students of all age groups in your school.

G: Yes. We, the schools that I was in previously, I was there for about

seven years, and we had an _classy that included children

from six months to three years. We had an early admission class that

included the three and four-year olds. And kindergarten classes. We

had the first through sixth grade classes ._ ...rf..

B: I see. Well, as you know, students a minority groups, seem to have

special problems/mainly because schools were not equal in days gone

braard sometimes they need special help, /ort of like the Head Start

Program and other programs) to seeMoe f put them up to th evei where they

can compete successfully with other students. AN I was interested to









2 LUM 198 A

know that you have some Lumbee students over hereias while aur

problems are not unique, I am sure that we must have some, you know.

G: Yes'. I've found that with most minority groups there are some

problems, and I think that's the advantage of the Program and

the Head Start Program., -Be e g number of the families have the

mother as the head of the family. She's usually the breadwinner and

the person who has to rear the children. Consequently, she doesn't

have time and some of them don't have the oe to give the children

during their pre-school years. These programs help to bring the

children up. I wouldn't'say to a level of parents who are very

educated, /ut it does help the children to make better progress.

Because I feel that with most children, it's a lack of experience that

holds them back. Sometimes it's a lack of having a positive concept

of self that holds them back.
yJe?
B: Umrhum. That is interesting. We want wewm B to explore that a

bit further. Excuse me, go right ahead.

G:- tIa, as you said before, just recently the textbooks, and even the

teaching material, began to include children of all groups



G: Up until that time, there was a number of distorted ideas that children

received and they received them mainly from movies, because during the

time Eefore that, there'wasn't even that much television that children

could view. '

-^-".UtPtem .

G: So consequently, there were a number of achievements that minority

groups had made that children never realized.t4t,



G: had occurred. Now with theminclud children in the
G: had occurred. Now with tI.i', them include _____ children in the


f









3 LUM 198 A

textbooksand including the deeds of some of their ancestors in the

textbooks, I think it gives the children a better self image. It makes

them reach for a higher goal.



G: I think one of the major things that we as minority groups need to do is

to try to work with parents, so that they can begin work with children

at an early age, teaching them not only their rights, but their

responsibilities qU5 this is where I find that we have fallen down to

an extent.



G: I think with the older people in the minority groups this was something

that was stressed more in the home. Consequently, the schools did not

have tbs. as much trouble with discipline/because children were taught

respect at home. They were taught to value the things that were in

their home, also things that were not in the home.

B: I see.

G: And teachers did not have to spend as much time in disciplining them,

because they did have the cooperation of the parents.

B: You mentioned discipline what kind of discipline problems do you
11 -1 V C_
usal,;,-i i t= ..iem -wolyou among minority groups?

G: I guess the biggest thing is the lack of respect. Today's parents

seem to have a fear of correcting children early enough, and I think that

by the time that they begin to think of correcting them, it's a little

late.

B: Yes.

G: I've always heardithat the Catholic Church is given a child until it's.

seven and then you can take him. And I think the formative years -up to

seven, are the'years where children need to be trained. W&ge I'don't

think children should have a fear of parents, but I think if a parent











4 LUM 198 A


says something to a child they should respond in a respectable way.

I think when this isn't'done in the home, then the child doesn't feel

it needs to be done in school.

B: If the child respects the parents, they generally will respect the

teachers.

G: Yes. And then there's less time is taken with the discipline.

B: Right.

G: Ah, the parents that work with the schools, that work with the teachers

you usually find that you have very seldom have trouble with those

children.

B: OPfi3m. Well, we don't ask anybody questions they don't want to

answer you know, anything you don't want to answer you can say "No

comment", or t'd rather not go into that", whatever. But I would

like to ask you about the relationship between the different children

from different races, for example, Lumbee children with

Black brothers and sisters. Also with their white brothers and sisters,

you know.

G: Children themselves, I think, without prejudice.

B: Yeah.
sca | 4uzenr'- e vcnr
G: I have found in working, jd at 27 there were more Lumbee Indians and

Blacks than there are in this school. I have found that a lot of times

if you listen to the things that children say, a lot of times they don't.

even realize what ktir they're saying. They don't realize the

significance of it. It's usually something that they've" either picked

up at home or they've picked up out in the street. I find that most

of the little arguments and scraps that children have are not racially

oriented. I think when they bring it in they bring it in more as










5 LUM 198 A

something to hurt And it's,somethigg that they have picked up,.

B: Like personal things.

G: Yet9ra h, I.don't think it's a personal thing aspect. 'I've Steen times
3dQlcW DSW t rl C .,
at-- where you might have y a white kid and a black kid who might

be arguing with another white kid. Or a Lumbee Indian and a black

kid that might be arguing with someone else. 'I don' t'think they pick

arguements....

B: On the basis of race.

G: ....on the basis of race. I think that most of this is something that

/hev'v picked up at ho .



G: And this is where most of the work needs to be done with parents so that

they will begin to accept people as people.

B: ihamam. I have to ask you this/because I really o :A know *4= but,.

do you have more problems with Lumbee-'kids than with4, the other two

races? How do they compare?

G: Personally, I don't think there'siany difference as farnas problems are

concerned. One thing that we have to realize is that you not only have

problem children, you have problem adults. And the problem adults xx

always have to be what you would call your literate adults. We, as

adults, have to realize we have hangups. We, as adults, have to realize

that we are not always righfr1 I think that if we work with children

and get them to realize you're :not perfect, and that you can accept

criticism from the frSeve; s-as long as it's done in a respectable way,

I dont think you'll have trouble with the children.

B: Do you think things are often interpreted as being racially inspired or

rAcially motivated when in reality they are not?









6 LUM 198 A


G: Yes, I do. I think there are a lot of tqmes that when children

will have ., differences/because they are in an argument. AtaSh,

between children maybe of two racial backgrounds. You might have a

parent who will come in and say this child did sush and such a thing or

this black child did such and such a thing or the white child did such

and such a thing. I' don't think the children are thinking that way

at all. I think they are thinking that a child has done something to

them and V=J, they don'; like it

B: Right, and he's either a large maybe theymight consider a certain

individual to be a bully or something of this nature. And this

means more to them than race because

G: I think with children it does, yes.

B: Children are, are very discerning. tThey're very,.-tfbaheltar !r-

understanding. Sometimes they say things which might sound a

little bad to us, but to themI :don't 'think they take it as serious,

iPaa _iA How about the problem of, you know, children maybe not

*ag in the elementary school, but as they grow older a feeling of

belonging to your group is so important? You know......

G: Well, I think one thing we, you know how a lot of times we talk

about a melting pot, I think no matter what group you're .in, there's

a closeness to that guoup that you have. =& I think you shou d

still identify with your group,,40L the thing is to be able to identify

with your group and not be ashamed of your group and yet be able to

mix with other groups as well.

B: Right.

G: And this is the one thing that we have to learn to do. I think this









7 LUM198 A

happens with blackspar tE as well as Lumbee Indians. I think we

you have to accept the fact thataall people/in all groups, there

are some people who are fortunate enough to have certain things.

There are some who are not fortunate enough, and I think until

all minority groups realize that until everyone in that minority

group is able to pull himself up, none of us are going anywhere.

B: Right. I would think on a ball team when you're playing a ball

game or something like this, 8msiS6iMc some form of competition,

the race disappears,doesn't it when they're pulling for their

home team?

G: For the one goal, yes.

B: :It's very interesting to me, iti fascinating to me I know that

you mentioned the melting pot concept, and certainly this country

is one in which we do have many people from many parts of the world

all ethnic groups represented, hundreds of languages and everything

els>) '5i if we fail here, that's it. I, don't'know another place

it could be tested or proved or we could establish anything else.

But if we don't break down the barriers, whatever they are, and

promote just plain hmman understanding, I don't see how, I don't.

see any opportunity of anybody else ever doing that. We might as

well laugh it up and forget about it. But the world being as it is,

it seems to me we have to do this for the sake EZ? of survival, if

nothing else, because the most distant country in the world, for

example, is only a matter of a few miles, lifetime, from any other

point on earth. (We're close to each other and communications bring

us together and communications can do so much but there's so much,

JS a certain amount of personal contact. Do you think this is where

we fall down, more in personal contact in, for example, in communi-

cations? For example, if I hear a news commentatorax on television
N\









8 LUM 198nA


w giving out a report I never think about that person's identity or

ethnic background or anything else. ''m interested in what they're

communicating to me.

G: Well, I think the main thing is, it isn't important even as to what

background they're from as long as you do not label the entire group

because of what has happened to one person. And this is where we

fall down. We feel that with certain groups we give them certain

labels and this is the label(wefl,2 G-P)l ,/ to the entire group.

And when I talk with children I talk with children about accepting

a child. You either like him or you doht like him, because of what

he is.

B: Right.

G: Not because of this John Jones or John Jones is a boy --I don't'

like him because he is a bully, hot because John Jones is white

or not because John Jones is black. And one thing that I find in

a lot of the schools that the children are picking up, is that, and

this, too, is coming from the home, is the idea of not liking someone

because they are from a certain group, or because they get an idea.

And I still say it goes back to the older people who don't want to

admit .they're wrong.

B: Do you have, 1ahy-b-y __.. situations in which there's a

display of resentment because of that? The extra care, say, that

minority groups are getting, you know.

G: 'It's in _and not necessarily in school. I

not too long ago and there was a gentleman there who

was, said he was an admitted WASP, that felt that by 1982 America

would be communist. And then as I talked with him I realized what

he was saying. Because his idea was that most of the help was going

to the minority groups. But if you listen on TV the other night, you









9 LUM 198 A

heard them say that4iu; among the people who are starving right

here in America, and I know I went to a Democratic Convention

not too long ago, about four or five years ago, and actually

seventy percent, I think they said at that time were people who

were in the poverty area were not of what we would call the minority

groups as they are identified today. You'll find that in Appalachia

those are whites that are there and you find any number of them.

So when you think of the minority groups you think of all groups,

because America has all groups here that are starving and in need

of help.

B: Right.

G: They need clothing, they are not trained, A A A A A _

and are not able to read or write.

B: Right. You, ah,... How about the relationships would you say that

white and Lumbee students get along, work better generally than

say black and white or L6mbee and white?

G: I don't think I could /A I d o\ AAd/colAd say any more

B: Or there isn't that much difference?

G: I can't see that much difference myself. Maybesit's because I

Zgi have never noticed it kx that much. (inaudible)



B: Well, if you've)never noticed it, that's good.. That means if it

isn't there, and then you appreciate

G: Well maybe I wouldn't say that it isn't'there. Maybe it's that, just

that I haven't experienced it. And in working with children, I

have found that all children, yof-trktif as I said, children are

children and they either like someone or they'don't like someone.

I don't think when it comes to an argu ment/if they are trying to get

out they might use a racial name. But I still say it's something that









10 LUM 198 A


they pick up from home more than anything else. I can remember
school -ule ny- svCVr
once at = going into the classroom and there was an argument

between two Lumbee Indians, one was blonde And he was so



And the one with the blonde hair was

and he called him a half-breed. To me, you know,

to see it wasn't that he, it was just

the words he had heard. Because actually, if you put the two

together I guess the other ki ds would figure Wayne would fit

more into that category than he would. And I don't think it was

that he thought of it in that way. It was just that he was hitting

outp at that time he was ang-rhe thought that he wanted to

say something that he thought might hurt/and he said it.

B: im=Sam. Do yo think us, do you think minorities pupils are more

sensitive, say as black students and Lumbee studentsdo you think

they're more sensitive to remarks perhaps than other students?

G: Yes, I believe they are. I think they have different ways of

trccr .n I think that; ag2d this is the one thing

that we have to have our children understand diri I think

sometimes we have very "thin skins" if you want to use the word,

concerning some things. Sometimes I think things are said and

maybe at the time it's said no ne is thinking of it in that manner,

but being as a minority you have a tendency to

And it's according to how you handle it or how

are the children going to handle it that makes the difference.

But I think when children learn that, as ma used to say,"What

you've got in your head", they're going to

And as they begin to value education more and begin to realize








11 LUM 198 A


that with an education and with perseverance they can move and

they can help themselves and to help their

school. And this is what

B: Of course, children are pretty smart. They have enough intelligence

ashu they can sieze on things like this on occasion, can't they?

G: Well, no. Children do this even in the family.

B: They're human.

G: Yes, they're, well, children have a tendency to be able to really

see through....children can see through adults better than adults

can see through adults.

B: I believe you're right.

G: And uh, you take even the i 15 in the home it's the mother

and father that lets them do so. They were willing to pit one

against the othe) say, for instance, if one wants to go out,

they go to the one they think will let them go out.

B: Well, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I have a niece

who is ,-S has an IQ of 186/and she is ten years old. The

teacher wrote on her report card, "We need a special school for

Kim." She's smarter than +4L fref .'T She doesn't

get really challenged in her group. Consequently, she has all this

time on her hand T- 4,L .

G: Is she an only child?

B: Yes.

G: See what happens when there's an only child was an only child,

cnu you kaxa are the center of attention. The adults will

take time with you and lx as I tell a lot of parents with an only

child, a lot of the things that an only child picks up a child that

comes from a larger family doesn't. There's an instance which is a

girl, and she's going to put on a blue dress, long before school age,









12 LUM 198 A


and her mother says,"Let's put on a pair of blue socks." She comes

to school knowing blue. Whereas another child who hasn't had-if.,

this attention or these opportunities, doesn't even know what the

colors are. Their teacher has to teach them. So that's why, really

I don't put too much _lh inlo intelligence tests because

intelligence- tests is really a measure of experience. If the

child hasn't the experience, he's going to test lower-on the

intelligence test.

B: Right, and of course, all those tests are devised on the basis of

the main population.

G: Ye..having-.-\e-4,

B: And they don't take into account the special background.

G; No. Because the where they

used to give you a cup and a bowl and something else and

ask you to select something to go with it. And unless

the child comes up in a home where the table is set for meals, they

would have no way of knowing that a cup goes with a saucer or where

the fork and knife and spoon goes. jfoesn't mean the child isn't

intelligent, it means that he just hasn't had that experience.

B: g Do you work with other programs aside from the Lumbee

program?

G: You mean in school?

B: Special Q4Vclr.2._ you know.

G: No, I haven't.



G: I think it works very well for the children. I think it helps them

to, it helps to give them that little push. Every child wants to

succeed.

B: Right.








13 LUM 198 A



G: And with the extra help that they get it helps them to be able to

Y/y/ i/^^-/y/4\n,- be more successful, because nobody wants to fail.

B: That's right.



B: That's a good thing .

G: A lot of the frustrations I think come from children who experience

Sa / a lot of failure.

B: Right.

G: Because if a child comes in our school, or gets in with a class,

where there's children who have had a lot of experiences, and this

child hasn't, all he has to do is to respond a couple of times,

and find 's wrong and then he begins to fool his ownself.

(inaudible)





B: We've had this experience with l Indian children when I took

part in the national study made by the United States Office of

Education, made a special study of Indian education in 1968 and

it was very strongly recommended that wherever possible, if children

were ah e to work with somebody in their own group, they would

feel more confidence in things like this. How do you feel about

that?

G: Well, any time a child can look to someone in his own group and

see that he has been a success it's an inspiration for hm.



G: Ta and it means it gives him something that he would like to look

for--maybe not be exactly what tha t person is, but it at least

lets him know that there .-at'rteiLe is a possibility that









14 LUM 198 A



he can achieve for himself.

B: Whether it's true or not, do you feel that V14Y minority children
they're
have a tendency to feel that kbEir more understood by

somebody from their own group? wkod-Pai Z y A hat I'm

asking you is does the, do you think the feeling is there? Whether

there's any personal feeling ,,?,.Aj^

G: (inaudible) X seems they have a tendency to feel that

someone who is in their own group understands them better.

B: Well, education is certainly a challenging thing, isn't it?

G: It certainly is. And it changes every day.

B: More complicated?

G: No, I think that the main thing is that you have to realize that

everything is changing and you can never, you never reach the

point where you can say, "I have iA" But it's an ongoing thing,

and the more you learn, the more you need to learn. And I used

to always say that if I had children, it wouldn't be so much what

I wanted them to do, it's just that whatever they do they be good

at it. And I think we put so much stress on academic education)

that we don't realize that there are other areas that children

can excel in. You take the automobile mechanic. He has to go

back to school every so ofteq to keep up with the newer cars.

And it's the same thing in every field. A'd- the main thing is

for every child to realize that every job is important, every job

contributes to the welfare of everyone, and whatever you do be good

at what you are doing.

B: Right.









15 LUM 198 A



G: Everyone doesn't have to be a _44,doctor. Everyone doesn't

have to be a lawyer or a teacher.

B: True.

G: Because if anjay when any group goes on strikelitVffects all

the other groups.

B: Do you have anything you would, you could suggest AJ to start

overcoming these deficiencies among our children?

G: I think that we could 4w4 .get the parents to the extent, you see,

we have a lot of the children have fathers or parents, that were

not accepted



But you have to realize tht some of these parents came up through

an era when they were not welcomeq

( LL'_ nr-cs more parent education classes for

their parents that aren't able to read2, ave classes that will
howt
teach them to read and to write. Classes that will teach parents

how to fix some of their, more simple recipes they need for helping

iKahr their families, feeding their families. Classes that

will show parents how to buy O JU __for their

children. Classes that will show parents how to
hr~------
'ad do things like this. And I think

as we work with the parents, get the parents attitude to change, this

would change their children.

B: Well, you've certainly been very kind to talk with us giving our

people an awful lot of your time. I certainly want to thank you

and wish you good luck and Godspeed.

G: Thank you.









16 LUM 198 A



B: I think they're very lucky to have you here.

G: Thank you.

B: This is November 11, 1974, Lew Barton interviewing for the University

of Florida's History Department's American Indian Oral History

Program. This afternoon we are favored to be right once more on

-.weff-'naw eafh, Broadway Street at the American Indian Study

Center, and with me is a lovely young lady who's kindly consented

to .give me an interview. I want to ask her if she'll tell us her

name and position.

W: Jeanette Walker and I work for the Indian Education Program as a

teacher's aide.

B: Um hmm. Now you work very closely, very intimately with this

program, don't you?

W: Yes sir, I deal with the tutors. When I speak of the tutors, that

is, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth graders that are available to tutor

in the school. And I deal with the teachers, the principals and

the kids in the school that needs help. And I also work in the

areas if they're missing a lot of schoolI contact and find out

what the problem is. -. d-as much

as I possibly can.

B: That's great. You must enjoy this because I}, I know you like to

yoiu like people, don't you?

W: I love people)and I love talking to people/and there's another

thing that drives me to do it and that's I'm doing something for

my people. And when I go to talk to these people about their kids

missing school or their child's particularly low in reading or math/









S1LUM 198 A


I tell them this, that this is our problem. The reason our

race of people haven't accomplished more is because of a lack of

education.

B: Yes.

W: Because some of the parents that I contact can't even write their

own name. And I explain to them how it important it is for their

children to be able to do this.

B: Do you come from the Magnolia \1A ChO) in Robeson County?

W: Yes, I went to Magnolia High School until: I was in the ninth grade.

At that time, unfortunately, my mother didn't no longer send me

to schooje"_ that was fifteen year ago,

and thentwo yeaoago/I went to night school and took my basic

education C S5e

--n: -czIrmuhmm'.

W: And I am still working on my English where that I hopefully I'll

have that by December.

B: Your English is just fine as far as I'm concerned. Would you tell

me something about your family? ME_, may I ask you how old you are?

W: Thirty-two.

B: cJfa-re _ypur parents were, are they still living?

W: Yes, my mother's still living and _her health, she

just turned sixty-seven years old. And when we lived in North

Carolina/we were very poor. I can remember/like in the winter

times/we lived off of ten dollars a week. And as a child, I never

received, even received a baby doll for Christmas. I was thankful

just for a handful of candy, because some Christmases that was all

we got.

D'JlC) 4 dto^.









18 LUM 198 A


W: -A today I'm trying to widen the gap for my kids hoping to give

them more, but not too much so that they won't be spoiled.

B: -a>s Who was it you married?

W: John A. Walker, and he's originally from N&rth Carolina, too.

B: -a*am. And how many children are there?

W: I have two girls: one of them is 18 and other one is 8.

B: What are their names?

W: The oldest one is Dawn ,, and she's in the eighth grade,

and she's a B student in junior high this year, and my youngest one

is Rhonda Lynn, and she's in the third grade and she's 8 years

old.

B: TVemt r. You have a lovely family there. You just enjoy working

with a program like this, don't you?

W: Yes, very much. ES like I said before, I enjoy doing something

for my people. This is the basic has reason why that I am working

on the program. Because I'm able to do something for my people.

Before, )1 I haven't worked in seven years until this job was

asked, I was approached about this job, /nd, , I really love it.



W: And I see thleed for it because, I knew these kids and I

get to understand them, get to know them, and see the need that

they need ssomedy to help them. Some of them just need somebody

to be kind to them--show them that they care about what they're

doing and how they're doing in schoohbecause a lot of times I

find that the parents don't even take the initiative and go see

what class their child's in. Some of the parents can't tell no

difference 4, you know, tjh all they can tell me is

what, where the child's supposed to be in, and that's the extent of it.








19 LUM 198 A

B: s. Yeah. Well then I'm so glad the program's going as well

as it is here, because this is one of the big problems of integration,

since integration is inevitable. Some way the educational gap has

to be bridged #h in order that everybody will be taught nearly

on the same level as possible. And there's so many, so many

problems simply because

,s their schools were unequal for so long, in other words, deprived

of equal education in spite of the law that said equa L j ,,. ..

Do you run into any other particular problems?

W: Z? yes) I run into problems, like, sometimes the kids are not

certain of their identity. One particular boy I rt into just a

couple weeks ago when I was going into the classroom trying to find

out how many Indians were in the classroonda I askedand the boy

didn't put his hand u o later on the teacher come to meand she

told me that he was a Locklear. And of course, yhen you run across

Locklear you know right away he's a Lumbee from North Carolina.

B: Right.

W: So, ah, he said that he didn't know whether he should put his hand up

or not because he was living with foster parents. And also because

of the intermarriage situation--sometimes the kids are not certain.

They don' now what they are or what they should bay they are.

B: Interracial marriages, do these take place frequently between, between

Lumbees and blacks and Lumbees and whites or one or the other?










20 LUM 198 A


W: Well, 3., the racial marriage between blacks I haven't run

across any cases where there was marriage, but I have run across

kids that are black and Indian. But there, where the races are

intermarriage is mostly with tht whites/because when the Indians

mix with the colored it's always undercover/and it's a big, a

great big secret



W: And then of course this confuses the kid

B: These are illegitimate children, no doubt.

W: Yes, and this confuses the child when he goes to schoolbecause he

don't know whether to say whether he's black or IndiM and in the

family with the white kids, they don't know whether they, they're

register theirself or tell you they're black or white. In fact,

I've run across cases where there was maybe several different

things, like Germans, Indian and colored/and a little mixture of

all. And the child was just mixed up--he didn't know who he was.

I think this is sad when we get in a state like this.

B: Oh it certainly is. RExxkBnx Is this, does this seem to be a

widespread problem?

W: Well, not necessary ily iN with the whites and the Indians is

widespread here in Maryland. You find quite a few of the young

men here come to Baltimore marrying white girls.

B: Utrhmnr. Do you think it's more frequently Indian guys marrying

white girls or the other way around? Or is it about the same?

W: I really couldn't saWicS-, fma. from the kids that I know in

school mostly the father is marrying the white girl the majority

of the time.

B: I see. How dotbj-,b do most of our people in this area feel









21 LUM 198 A

about interracial marriages?

W: Well, they accept ih -* BE ..ah--t.BR ...... There's no

big problem on that. Of course, now you'll find some of your older

guyite, men from North Carolina who'd say "Well, I prefer my

daughter or my son to marry Indians. But since he was raised here

in Maryland and there not that many decent Indian boys available,

i_ I don't feel ;e that choosey any more." But they would

prefer.

B: If they had it, it was a matter of preference they would prefer to

be in their own interest. M but, I know what you mean. Do you

plan to go back to North Carolina to live some there?

W: I want to, and then I don't want toibecause in Maryland, there's

more opportunity. Even, !teBgi, say for I was disability. There's

more help available for me/and the people here aren't as prejudiced/

,, ,^,,_ this is the way I find it, as they are in North

Carolina about the system . and where to get help and

aiding you. And also there's more jobs available hereland if you

are out of work, there's still more help that you can get here

then you can in North Carolin.



W: But someday, maybe, I will venture back to North Carolina.

B: -fEnldmr. Do you visit occasionally?

W: Ah, yes we go down about twice, three times a year. And always

on Christmas.

B: Ah, how do the children feel about home, "

W: Well, both of my kids were raised here and they like North

Carolina, but they only like it for a week or two at the time.










22 LUM 198 A

and they're ready to come back.



W: And, too, I also think in the terms that if I would go back there)

the schools don't have a s much to offer as the schools here....

B: True.

W1 sss Because I, uh, see this too by working as a aide. I.*s

run across a lot of kids who come from North Carolina schools, and

I can see what they're doing here in schools compared to there. Of

course the North Carolina School System is coming up.

B: Yes,-tam \. ,, f,,

W: It's more advanced today than it was five, six years ago.

B: Right. Do yodithink the Indian community is increasing in size

here or is it remaining about the same?

W: \,6 /,\ ,. Well, you see, it's about the same because you-f0i .

A4. get the young people coming upland the old people,=ty. are

moving back home building their homes back in North Carolina. They

have been here for several years. They seem to always wander back

to North Carolina.

B: Yeah. I wonder what there is back there that draws them?

W: I guess that good living and soul food.

B: Uh, do people still, how do people feel about good old collard

greens ^, -, N .. Foods like, I'm a

vegetable and beets man, myself. How about collards?

W: Well, collards you can get plenty of them here if you know the

right places to go and find them. But it seems like they're just

not as good as those in North Carolina. Even like you sit down

to the table and eat homemade biscuits, you know. Even though you

made them right here in Marylandjand you made them yourself yo-trman

_aieake it seer like it justs tastes better at home.








23 LUM 198 A



And there's another thing that people that come from North

Carolina, North Carolina is always home. They never say

Baltimore is home. They always refer....

B: Baltimore is their home away from home.

W: Yes. And even my kids, when I say "home", you know, they always

think of North Carolina, too, because.,-j they hear me say it

so much, you know?

B: JJnm-mJ- ] how much more family do you want? Do you want, do

you like large families or you like Srf\} (rty ?

W: Well, the way inflation is today and everything, I think two's

enough for me and my family

&s-!---=Kiff'=hmm. l G

W: I watx11E mxmxfaK don't want to deprive them of anythingland I

want to be able to give them a good education--something that I

haven't received yet, but I'm working on. And I feel that more

in the families that that's opportunity that they will have

.-6 4im--" ni T miu. I ,,- --"**'*'*"""''""

W: I suppose maybe one of these .days I might adopt a boy or something

like that. I'M love to have a boy, but at this point I can't.

B: Well, that's certainly become an expensive proposition of rearing

families. Back home, y,L -, / yin Robeson when there

were so many farms/t:iE it was no problem bringing children up/

because you raised most of the food you ate.

W: TU-wmn. And too, __ now when I go down

S, ,,. the grocery stores, the grocery stores,
their food seems higher to me, ity and I guess maybe you could

sum that up too, because people don't buy as much--they raise

their own. Sort of like, even simple things like milk. I've









84 LUM 198 A


found that it's higher in North Carolina than it is in the state

of Maryland. SoE,

B: I guess if everything was balanced out it probably, might be about

the same, _Ea. I'm not sure of that. It's too high in both places,

isn't it?

W: Yeah. And getting higher all the time. And, of course, they did

a thing on television, VW a couple nights ago, where they was

talking about it doesn't even, *( you don't even save to have a

freezer any more/because if they give you the prices on how much

it costs to run a freezer each month. So, according to the consumer

report, you're not saving any money by buying quantities and buying

a deep freezer.

B: \-/6 ^\/ / y\i Actually, electricity had gone up

tremendously. For example, I lived in an apartment, just me, and

5IL I'm lucky if Iget out for twenty-four or twenty-five dollars

a month. And I don't have all that much in there. I don't even

run a television most of the time. ^ ^- ,

I,- /% A/\/- . But I do run an air conditioner in the

summer time. It really costs.

W: ._ well like, mr-M my husband, he's a truck driver

and he bee gone most of the time, and just me and the two kids,

we still eat around twenty-five or thirty dollars worth of food

a week. '



W: And, 4,of course if he was home, I guess it would be a little

bit higher than that. And,ggg so, 0B I guess, iEfl one reason

why I have such a high grocery bill I believe in eating one on

one as long as I can afford it.








25 LUM 198 A


-BU--ui mlmurn

W: .g I'm goingrs4 feed them myself. I'm not too much on pork

but, of course, I was raised on pork.

B: -mi-kri. I love pork.

W: Yeah, that's what they.....

B: It's not good for you, I don't think.

W: Well,, L ^ when I do a lot of pork eating when I

go home Christmas and they're killing hogs. Boy, do I enjoy that.

You get down there and start killing hogs 1ik you know, like you

used to do. Make some lard and chit..,Ceana, cracklings...,

B: Cracklings

W: ....and pudding and that's when I eat my pork. And get some

sweet potatoes going, you know, that's really 0OC I like

that.

B: You're making me hungry. That's one thing people believe in doing.

whether they're North Carolina or northern --eating plenty,

right?

W: eah.

B: Our people particularly?

W: I found, c there's a little discipline around the church there

for a while, ^/ 44 referring to Baptists, the Baptist house.

In fact, they were heavy eaters.

B: Oh, me. Somebody was joking with me about Indian women, their

appearance. "I'll tell you ona thing, they sure

have pretty figures." said, "y4k 5E h, they do until

they get to be about forty. And then itjggh, spreads all over the

place." this was somebody I could just

joke with and say most anything. We were just kidding, you know?









26 LUM 198 A


Ah, but ah, I guess we do have, do we have a tendency to overeat?

B: ft% I don't think so. 4 I know my girlfriendgshe can eat as

much as I can. But, of course, now we get this old habit





END SIDE ONE









s27 LUM 198 A'

SIDE TWO


R: We were talking about food and we were rudely interrupted by the

tape running out. I .hut fl, of course, what I said a while

ago about Indian women, tf, you certainly don't prove that. You

seem to be a very active person, 1, and your weight is in the

right proportions and everything. How do you manage that?

W: Well, I stay active. I do a lot work by walking on my job during

the day. And, of course, two nights a week I play volleyball in

the wintertime. In the summertime, I play baseball and we have

practices two nights a week and we play our games on Saturdays



W: And I alsofio, am involved with the kids, S2i teaching them how

to play and baseball, and, of course, I want them to be good

sportsmen, too, .53 I think a lot of women as being able to play

sports very well



W: AndrE I think that has a lot to keeping py weight down, too,

because when I first start out the season I'm a little bit chubby,

so4Ft I practice a while and have to run half a mile before or

after the practices, just to kind of chimmai- help me lose about

five pounds that I've picked up during the winter months. But, of

course, 4 playing volleyball in the winter months you're not, you

don't have as much running to do as you do with baseball. So

therefore, I tend to pick up a little. But 33-I weight's pretty

well stable. I only gain five to seven pounds and I gain it and

then I lose and then I pick it up again.

B: l you're on the girls softball team?

W: Yes, I play for Water's Edge--one of the leagues tvaigrf, where I live.









28 LUM 198 A


I live down in which is in Baltimore County. And

we play several different teams. Actually we have msoes sixteen

games a year.

B: How- e>rt ijs this an all Indian girls team?

W: S., no. There's only four girls that are Indian on it. And when

I first started/there was only one Indian and that was myself. And

then of course, I've recruited some more Indian girls to play

on the CUrT. But, of course, now, the city team is center,

American Indian Study Center, they have-"i a women's league too.

B: -4;BCMM. Well this must be a lot of fun.

W: It is. I've really enjoyed it. It gives me one thing to look

forward to in the afternoons, and, of course, that exercise is

very good for you.

B: Oh,yes. Have you always been athletic?

W: t0 yes, I have played baseball in school and E, played volley-

ball with the school teachers and of course, we got
larger
around on the head by the school teachers being 1k 31x than me6

a -_pii I've always liked any kind of outdoor sports.

..a even when it comes to working, I'd rather work n the outside

an ay than go in the house and work. I can remember as a kidimom

used to tell me to do something, you know, to help her cook or

something, and I says "No. I'll go feed the chickens for you."

Just to get out of the house.

B: Oh. Do you like to swim?

W: %L, no. I never learned to swim, because when we lived in North

Carolina there wasn't anywhere close by and of course, we didn't

have cars, ,. so I wasn't able to ever learn to swift )E I've

been tempted to take a couple swimming lessons but I never got around








29 LUM 198 A


to it because4rf. the night that they give swimming lessons out

at the Y where I live, that's the night I'm playing volleyball or

i 1 baseball.

B: Right. '* dp your folks still live in the Magnolia area in

North Carolina, some of your folks?

W: "I, my one aunt still live down there across from main,$a from

Mount Church. U but my mother HX is living up here

now, and my two sisters are living in Baltimore.

B: TEim. Where were you in 1968?

W: 1968

B: Were you living here then?

W: Yes, I was...

B: Alright. Well, I was over at Magnolia School making a survey

at that time. I talked to John Gregory Peck r y the United

States Office of Education/and I just wondered if I didn't see



W: No, ];. my last year over there was in l .



W: It was the last year I went to Magnolia. Of course, I've been

promising myself ever since I moved to Baltimore that one of these

years I was going to go back and visit some of the teachers and,=,

see how they were doing. But I've never got down there on a school

day that I could go visit. t

B: Well, do you find that your ILadiaess is an asset or a liability?



B: Or you don't see any difference?

W: To me, I don't find any difference because the less people that









30 LUM 198 A

I deal withggathey take you af face value, W4 your personality,

how you're able to talk to people, how you treat people and how

you feel about people.

B: Ah, how do your as..your children, well, we've talked about

them already. They, they don't seem to have any particular problems

do they?

W: 'Ta o, because my children, i,-t-ey are very prougthey tell sn

people that they are Indians. But as far as people recognizing

and picking them out as Indians and in the schools they go to

they're the onliest Indians in two particular schools. 45a.

B: It's something of a novelty then. Maybe they're looked up to a

little bit, don't you think?

W: i, no, not necessarily, because Indian history hasn't been taught

in those schools as yet. But, of course, they are doing studies

and they are going to recommend certain7t4, materials for the

following year to be presented to L educate the non-Indian and

the Indian about Indian history.

B: brflar. t., there's such a little bit about us in the textbooks.

It's almost as if we didn't exist, you knovi9 7Z ..

"4 -Lin has always been a little surprising

0,he Indians are the people who really fathered

this country. Our self-image is really changing perhaps.

W: Yeah, I can see it changing now because 4t a year ago^fL, people

wasn't even aware that there was Indians in Baltimore. Of course,

there are still some people I run across today that aren't aware

of Indians being in Baltimore. And, of course, I work at the

City Fair and I'm dressed in an Indian ceremonial dress when I

work down there and I have people coming up to me and saying,









31 LUM 198 A


"Are you Indian?" And I say, "Yes". And a lot of people say that

I'm not Indian because I don't look like a television Indian. And

also in the schools,ag& the kids ask me what I am because they

can't figure it out, you know. They know I'm not white and they

know I'm not back so they ask meland,J;W, I give them a little

bit of Indian Histor@ the ones that do ask, As they're very

surprised/because I don't look like a television Indian.

B: -Tes6. T, well; people don't realize generally that W, Indians

vary from group to group. Geography has a lot to do with that.

W: Jea. I have, this past Friday, I had to give a lecture about

the Lumbees. Of course, I stuck right ) stayed right on Lumbees.

I didn't wander off to another tribe of Indiansibecause I knew

more about Lumbees than I do any other tribe. And I spoke to

about twenty-five or thirty peoplfy whko-wasTyah, ghese were

senior citizens which their age run from sixty up. An--they

some of those___ ._ .ITni -T.Z("S of

course, some of them waS-and-ahey asked me a little bit about

the Indian history also. And I was explaining to them about why

the Lumbees looked a lot different than,say the Mohawk tribe, for

instance. A lot of Mohawks, they all psri look just alike to me.

Ai but VJ_A- we come back to the Lumbees and "'1 kind of

complexions, appearance, size. Of course, like my daughter, for

instance, she has blue eyes. And me or my husband have
have blue eyes.

B. =W4mm.

W: And a lot of people ask me, "Why does she have blue eyes?" 1AZIM

I go back to this beginning of history.

"-a"B S mm. Blue eyes have been cropping up ever since 1584.\
^^^^^^S~ffl *









32 LUM 198

B: And there were some of them here then.

W: Yes. Well, you find, like, I've noticed like with the Carters,

you find very, a lot of those with blonde hair and blue eyes.

B: i;m-krm. I wanted to ask you about.,i some other activities

that take place in different parts of the country. ?4 for example,P4L

woman's liberation movement. Do you think our women have been

affected by i 9



B: /omen libbers?

W: g, not with the Indians. I don't think so. Of course,-ds

my husband has a big joke about it. He says thatQ*, the white

man come to this country and ruined the Indian ladiesbecause the

the Indian ladies used to do all the wor



W: And, g of course, he teases all the guys about ruining them.

B: VM*rmi. my woman still be doing

all the work. -if I think they advocate some good things like,

such as equal pay for equal work. I'm for that.

W: Yes, I agree with that. If I doSh.-a man's job and he's getting

a certain salary for it and if I'm going to do it, I want the

same salary.

B: Right.

W: If I can do it as good. And I do feel in certain cases that a

woman can do the same job as a man.

B: Absolutely. How about changing the name, you know, where, instead

of saying "Mrs." you say "Ms" in absence of 'Mrs." you say 's"?

W: Well, I think that's taking away from the woman myself.

B: You think that's a loss?

W: Yes.

11P_______________. _








33 LUM 198 A



B: m--Ipm. I believe you're a good Indian wama= wife. You know.rmu

""."i"^ among our people, we have what is known at the patriarchial

form of family structure, which means that /4,6 At the father

is head of the house. Oa, who has the last word at your house?

W: Well, when he's at home, he usually has the last word. But, of

course, like I say he's a truck driver and he's gone most of the

time. So I take care of most of the problems, the household

expense, the paper work. Of course, he's in business for hisself,

and I'm his secretary. But, of course, he hasn't started paying

me secretary's wages yet.

B: Does he have long, very long runs?

W: Yes, his last trip he was out on he was gone twelve days. Of course,

he goes to the West coast practically eEV,, once a week.

B: -Um-imhWitw .what do they do when they go out? Do they,=*r, take

one driver along and get some sleep along the way, or what?

W: Yes, there are, his truck has a sleep r it's got the average size

or twin bed. And he always has a driver and g they like drive

six hours/and then they switch oqad one drives six hours and they

only stop 2.e to gas and eqa'S, aM then they go out and drop

the load in California and some days they mayAn, drop the same

day and pick up another load. Sometime they may have to stay over

before they get another load to come back.

B: They may get orders to go elsewhere before they return, is that

right?

W: Sometimes, but not too often. Most of the time it's a straight

load. But, of course, this twelve day load, he went Detroit and

from there he went to California.

-R~-;. e -$If,'lKB









34 LUM 198 A


B: Welly/AM that makes it a little uncomfortable for yo@Q

Is there something irregular about their schedule/

or does he have some idea in advance howtyyaqi what his

schedule is to be/or may some runs be longer than others?





W: Well, when he calls them up they usually tell him where he's going.

And, of course, he never knows until he gets a call where he's

going and how long he'll be. Because you never knowjz how

long it's going to take to get unloaded on some job. But the

.aaagver average time is usually BB seven to eight days. And

bkakffxhkKrKmqpaxK Unless he goes,- = to 110, and thenleaves

and goes to sa, like when he went to Detroit and then went to

California.

-B. Uitfimin:

W: It's a little bit longer and he never knows exactly what day he's

going to be here and what day he's going to be back.

Bj Right. JAh, do you resent him? Do you, do you resent him doing

this type of work do you think?

W: No, I don't resent it. I didn't want him to take he

worked in a factory for nineteeiears before he decided to drive

his truck, and I was against it from the start. But, of course,

that was what he wanted



W: So I go along with what he wants, and, of course, I was still not

satisfied with it, but this is what he chose and he's the one got

to do it, so it's harder on him than it is me.

B: Is it that he, is he making out well' /-h e/









35 LUM 198 A


W: 4 yes, he was making out very well. But, right now, at this

point, .3, things are going downhill for him. And, of course,

a, I think I understand why it's going downhill because he got

saved and he's talking religion to a lot of people that he meets.

Of course, normally, truck drivers don't be at home very often to

go to church. And so, A talking to them about God,

ycw trnny A., one man confessed and 4B, they were able to

get him mifs d to confess that Jesus Christ was his personal

savior. And at this point, h, things, you know, I feel that

this devil's coming working against him. Making things hard for

him. But, of course, he's strong minded and he won't let anything

stand in his way.

B: I see. S.iin other words, you think people are not used to seeing

a truck driving,jg, evangelist?

W: E, no.

B: Missionary you know.

W: Not in this part. In the west they also have two or three trucks

that are evangelists. And they just run from one truck stop to

another talking about Christ and giving Bibles out and...

B: Hey, that's something.

W: And they also have a magazine they interview people and write up

stories, t2, their raFaS m. confessions they write in this maga-

zine. But, of course, I've never known them to come here yet.

B: s., pu don't let all the stories you hear about truck drivers

bother you, do you?

W: Vg no I don't. Becaus4eg0.,xSSh, as my husband being a truck driver/

I've learned a lot from him about the truck drivers and =-gr, it's

not like you hear.









36 LUM 198 A



B: well, I'm sure of that. UI._people just like to have .,S

something to let their imagination go. They figure a guy's off

from home for three or four days he can pick up some lady folks

anid give them a ride and things like this.

W: iw. hrl_. Well, there are guys that does that but they were the

same guys that would do it if they were at home.

B: Right. I think you're not only a good Indian wife but also a

very reasonable wife.

W: Because you take somekm#y man who's going to pick up somebody out

there on the road, if he gets a hilf a chance he's going to do it

right here at, when he's at home. He's going to tell his wife

he's at one place when he's going to be another place. I don't

think it necessarily has" to be a truck driver to be this way.

B: There's some Ax kind of program which came on this morning and

the statement was made in this program A. 45 the

question was asked rather, =f "Do you think a woman can break

up a good marriage?" All theee of the people who were asked

said "No". ^ they had a good marriage to b&gin

with, then there was no chance of anybody breaking it up. What

would have been your answer if you had been on that program?

W: Mine would have been "No", because I think the woman herself

breaks up the marriage. Where the husband breaks up the marriage,

on their own, ft because I don't think that if the man is happy

and in a good marriage, he's got to be happy. He doesn't wander

off, unless destroy, gives him reason to wander off where _



B: JsiaS. S I don't know if women libbers would like you but I sure

do.









37 LUM 198 A



W: Thank you.

B: I know your husband sure does. ', i other words, your concept of

SZk, family iiih is the way it used to be--not after, not what

women libbers might think it should be. Well, perhaps there are

some things that need reviving. J.l, Jhe old double standard, of

course, that's not, that's no good for anybody. t 1pt 106, I am

certainly glad, I don't think that women libbers have J reached

your area of influence in this community very much.

W: No, because I feel that if you have a good marriage, you can, and if

you don't and want to make it a good marriage, you just pamper

your husband. Because all husbands are like babies and you can

treat them so and let him feel like he's the king and treat him

that way. And you've got it made.

B: Ohi. That's interesting.

W: Of course, now you can get your side across every once in a while,

too, But you hale to be allittle bit clever to do it.

B: =S aa Well, women are clever, -", many women are. I think there's

a lot to that and I think you are a good woman. Do you think you'll

go right on working in the program?

W: 2M, gt present I have applied for a better job and I have an inter-

view on Wednesday. And this job Q, hasprk, more to offer me.
A better
And it's a step higher for me. Thgxuxis position, V, than the

one I have now.

B: Well, .i I imagine

W: l;eh, if I get the job, I'll miss the kids that I've been working

with, and especially the tutors that I've workdd with. "tC__

ah? in the future, v, this is5 like I said, a step to something










38 LUM 198 A


better.

B: -rabahu. go you work with any teen agers?

W: --1a yes, the^SVk girls, B h, I work along with are the high

school girls that I bring them into the schools and tell them

which kids, students in the elementary school that needs tutoring

help, and I do a lot with teen agers.

B: Do they come to yo ith their personal problems?

W: Some of them do. We have a very good relationship. In fact, J

I try to talk to them on their basisand I do this with the

elementary kids, too. When I talk to them, I talk to them on their

level, what they understand and by doing this I've just established

a good relationship with them.

B: hell, that's good. Well,-'t f.m- I'd like to thank you so very

much for giving us this interview. Is there anything you'd like

to say to other people along these lines? AelSh. People working

with young people, it must be fery rewarding experienc6"e"wb



W: It is very rewarding, especially when you, like one child

since we started working with her in reading, and ihe was on the

third grade level. And this, that was last year, and this year

she is on the sixth grade level and that makes me feel just very

rewarding. That's more rewarding that sorry that I get. And

anyone who is working with children/ ., ^, A, and they

don't have a good relationship,,-E-t they should analyze theirselfs

and try and think from that child's viewpointand talk to him

from his viewpointland deal with it from that end of it.
B: Instead of imposing our ideas ust listen and let the child talk
B: Instead of imposing our ideas just listen and let the child talk.









39 LUM 198 A

W: Yes, and, of course, you can always get your ideas in there--
bC.
kind of slip them in, 04 a little bit clever.





B: That's sort of like my approach. Of course, you perhaps first

find out what the problem is, you know, identity the problem.

=W, AiK I think is where relationsUips between older people and

younger people break down so often. Ah, what do you think of

the generation gap?







W: Well, I think where the generation gap comes in is that we tend

to think and act as adults even with our childrenland when we're

dealing with them, not go back to their level1 and remember and

think of it from their terms-and you have to analyze those thoughts.

B: I see. You think young people are any better today than they

were when we were kids? Do you think they've changed any or are

they better or worse kx what do yolink?

W:: I just say that they are a little bit more educated today than

they were back in our days. They know more, and they're more,

a little bit more grown up for their age compared to our age and

sometime they hage a tendency to think about how we acted at eight

years old. But, of course, now you've got to compare a how they

are acting compared to another eight year old today1instead of how

we acted or what we knew at that age.
1n
B: I remember a show that Danny Thomas was actingiseveral years ago.

And he, of course, he was playing the part of a father And there









40 LUM 198 A


was a daughter involved and there was a young man that came to

court the girl in the story. And 1a0, his wife said t im, A. -

he didn't like the guy, see. Well, you shouldn't feel bad because

o J E. he's just no worse than you were when you were coming

up. In fact, he's just like were. He thought about that for a

minute, jumped up and said, "I'll kill him! I'll kill him!"

I thought that was veryunny. 44AA A^ ^ 4 ,

That's about the attitude, isn't it. A -wer, wherFe get--eer



W: Basically,'t, things like that, you

want to forget and you don't

B: Right.

W: But of course that child

still has to have his own experiences, too. And you can` tell

him not to do something c-

wBe you have to use a different approach other than telling to do

something he can't do/because that makes him want to do it

B---- inaudltdiP--



W: -B yes, 3 they started out very low scales, in around

the fifth grade, and, of course, the higher up they get in school

the more advanced it is
-B .-----:

W: Yes, the counselors start 1i in the city

they don't have counselors)but in the.-- county schools where my

kids go to, they do have counselors in the elementary schoolb.ut

in the city it's ^ / in the junior high school where they

have counselors. And some of the children that have talked with

the counselors come to them with problems that should be taken to










41 LUM 198 A


their parents, but they can't talk to their paren s.



W: Sg-Cr* they can trust and feel they can talk to.



W: Yes, very much. I don't think that,'M. I think it's just some-

thing they should have started a long time ago, because there was

-mM things, A 1 ___- _--_ that I didn't know

the answers to and back then .

you didn't say anything.

B: -- i -

W: And, of course, I feel by people knowing more about it



B: Right. And if somebody makes a mistake knowing it's not as bad as

making it not knowing. This is the way I feel.

W: --

B: And so what are you g6ing to tell your children? Are you going,

are you going to tell them the facts of life?

W: Well my oldest daughter, the one that's thirteen, she knows practical)

everything that there is to tell. And, of course, as new things

develop I always tell her about it.

B:; Yes.

W: And, the one that's eight years old, I take it step by step as it

arrives with her, -., because a I don't think you can, depending

on their age and their development,U"; is how much you could tell

them and when to tell them.

B: 'Mil. Some people say when they are old tmxkz enough to have








42 LUM 198 A

curiosity and ask about something, this is when to tell them. Do

yod go along with this?

W: -, yes. I believe any time your child asks you a question, whether

it's sex or anything, I think you should answer. And don't give

them, J, put them off. Because if you don't, they're going to

somewhere else and get an answer and you may not like that answer

they get.

B: Right.

W: So, I believe in answering it, but be careful how you answer it.

B: Right. I remember when I was growing up, when I was very small

I wanted to believe in Santa Claus, I guess that was because we

were very poor. f; and when I found that people had lied to me

about Santa Claus, I was all broken up about it. 5iieaA, di

feel this way?

W: I can't recall exactly how I felt when I knew that there wasn't

a Santa Claus, agji h but of course, my kids at the.rT age now

after several years, they knew that there wasn't a Santa Claus.

%g but we still pretend and talk about Santa Claus, but they

actually know that their dad's the Santa Claus



W: But it doesn't take anything away from them I don't feel, knowing

the truth, because, tf I SBaEt think a_-V I the child is too

smart today to be lied to and I think they should know the truth.

B: Well, I want you to knww how very much I appreciate your talking

with mejand.S I should mention here that you went with me over

to make the other interview)anddjlg you've been so very helpful.

You, and Mr. Brooks, and others working on the programiand we do

want to thank you from the bottom of our hearts/and wish you good

luch and Godspeed in all that you attempt to do. you're










43 LUM 198 A



a real credit to our people. I'm ver4roud of you.

W: Thank you very much. I was glad to do i anytime ,2 I can do

something for someone, like I said before, I love people and I

love talking, so that was just down my line.

B: Good, and thank you so much.

W: Thank you very much.





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