Title: Interview with Gayner Mae Oxendine (February 27, 1975)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00006817/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Gayner Mae Oxendine (February 27, 1975)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: February 27, 1975
Subject: Urban Lumbee
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00006817
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Urban Lumbee' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: UL 11

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Full Text


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
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UL 11A

Page 1.

INTERVIEWEE: Gayner Mae Oxendine


February 27, 1975 dib

B: This is February 27, 1975. I am Lew Barton interviewing for the

University of Florida's American Indian Oral History Program. This

afternoon I am in the office of the alcoholics division at the

American Indian Study Center here at 211 South Broadway in Baltimore,

Maryland, and with me is a young lady who works with that particular

department. I've interviewed the director earlier, Mr. Ertl Hunt

and with me is, I believe it's a Mrs. Oxendine, isn't it?

0: Not Mrs., Miss.

B: Miss, I'm sorry.

0:' That's all right.

B: Would you give us your full name, though?

0: Gaynor Mae Oxendine.

B: Where were you born?

0: Lumberton, North Carolina.

B: 10=6 ts which area?

0: Black Swamp, Robeson County.

B: -.ah. How long have you been in Baltimore City?

0: About twenty-two years.

B: About twenty-two years. This feels like home then, doesn't it?

0: N6t really, no.

B: You can't be much older than that?

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Page 2. dib

0: Yes, I'm going on twenty-eight.

B: That's not bad.

0: No.

B: How do they say, the most beautiful years of a lady's life is

when she's about twenty-eight to thirty-five j1 Aer So

you've got much beauty to look forward to perhaps. Let's k9 p-js

anyway. What are your duties here, Miss Oxendine?

0: I work as a counselor.

B: iTl, cpuld you tell us something about your family?

0: My father and my mother both now live in Essex, Maryland, and their

names are Jane and Charlie Oxendiird3af I have a younger brother

who stays with them. He's twenty-five and his name is Bill Oxendine.

B: How old is he?

0: Twenty-five. And I have another brother whiee twenty-nine, who lives

on Lombard Street here in Baltimore.

B: What's his name?

0: His name's Anthony

0: 48i.he's married to a girl named Grace and they have one child

named Cary.

B: Interesting, you got any more family members?

0: No.

B: Do you enjoy your work here?

0: Yes, I enjoy my work.

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Page 3. dib

B: Is Mr. Ertl Hunt your boss?

0: Yes, he is.

B: How many of your are in the alcoholic division?

0: There's Ertl Hunt, he's the head of it, and then James Jacob, myself,

and Reverend Dial. We're all counselors.

B: SJaah, and the four of you make up the alcoholic division.

0: Righ tS um.

B: It must be interesting work. SA I rather admire you peopleeare working

in the alcoholic division;because I'm sure it must not be easy

work. You all are so, you get along so well with people. This

is one characteristic that I've noticed about all the people in

this division, A how well you get along with peop l andi .o" awn.'

all of you have beautiful personalities; you can handle most any

situationgand this is something that I admire very much. Mr.

Hunt is a very unusual person, isn't he?

0: Yes, he is.

B: Marvelous, very intelligent and his personality flows outward to

so many other people roundabout ^m Z t-\ Jr.e-

0: It kind of rubs off.

B: It kind of rubs: off on you, doesn't it?

0: tr-itmh. C

B: He is sort of contagious I guess. I don't know anybody who dislikes

him. Not a single person that I know of.

0: No.

B: Do -y 144cl-e O, you said you liked 4a work, didn't you?

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0: Yes, it's rather interesting. tf bIte tieI usually, SSClgSB

imme most of our clients are Indians, and to work in this field

you have to have a great desire to help your peopCea especially
in this type of field lc5olism is, you know, the number.one killer

among American Indians, and...

B: /_Sr_ _If_0

0: T.. --e ma"m. h 7-m i we've got a lot of people around here who

have had problem) breaks up a lot of homes/and you ee a lot of

friendsland you lose jobs on account of ig5.pf that's what this

program here was set because around this area it's mostly Indian

populated and we all here in this department have a great desire

to help our peopLpgf I feel it's accomplishing something myself.

B: Oh yes, no doubt about that. But you, you don't just handle Indian

alcoholics, do you?

0: No, no, most of our...

B: Help anyone who comes along?

0: Right, most of our clients are Indians, but we also have black, Spanish,

white Puerto Rican

0: se3 f. that come in. And we also (ymatmIw take care of whoever

comes through the door.

B: But must they come in and ask for help?

0: Well, that's one of the first signs. I mean if they really want the

help, the person theirself has to want it, and it takes a lot of

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Page 5. dib

courage for them to come in and say that they want the help to begin

wiyf yu y eu --=ad -man that's one step towards their cure. Yuu"

S--W not really a cure, but like a recovery, because there's not

really what you call a cure. gg> if you're an alcoholic you're

always an alcoholic and...

B: Either wet or dry you're...

B: ...still an alcoholic.

0: ...if you ---- 11:g' always commonly known as.a recovering

alcohol ou never actually recover because if you take one drink

then you could just be St -yauik-iav. right where you started fro 0

B: "gMrp, do you see this as a personality defect or as an emotional

problem)or are there physical things, too, that go along with it?9.-

--=2 It's a very complicated problem, isn't if. f. --

0: Well, I myself believe it's a combination of quite a few things.

But like a lot of people say, yasuqgW, I take a drink -bsnssCa

egj, for the silliest reason, like my dog died today or y u,

the Oriels, g9aMEW S won the ball game or whatever j*.ii amr And

they're tl-4l- .. ......@. the one whds(picking

up the glazq aj 4 t pw. No ones forcing them. It's they, y<4 mBmW-,

themselves that are doing it and in a way, PiE3E2, because of that/

they lose everything that they havCUwah.e after a while they can

drink so far that they hit a height to where it starts dropping off/

and even if they just take one drink they completelyyeut knim..at

UL 11A

Page 6. dib

3 tsay-yoTr`kMnrsdIal. They're already there.

B: And it only takes that one drink.

0: Right.

B: Do you have hospital facilities that are available to you or do you

need to use this information with your work?

0: We use it in connection with a workers1hospital throughout the area,

and we refer the clients to these hospitals for IegSp a period

of tii5SaM it's up to them for what period of time they want to

stay in. We also transport them to hospitals that are too far for

the^leu1--finm to get to themselves. But it's no good if they're

just going to dry out and just come right back out again. Because

it doesn't serve any purpose.

B: Do you have an statistics to show about what your percentage of successor

what do you consider to be a success? I know it's very difficult

to say that you actually arrested the alcoholic trend or whatever

it is, put them in the recovery stage. Do you have any idea about

how successful you are?

0: Well, I can't really say in numbers. I know we have a few that are

m drinkers at the time and seem to beynmmanmw, pretty

well, and some are, yauiw y back to workingand some are back with

their families and whatever. We also have these few that just aren't

motivated or just really didn't want he and-yNaBa some of

them have died aa which is8PO.idaMB what happens if they just keep

o i they just seem to lose all hop?Oe& if you take away the bottle

from the alcoholicyou always have to have something that he can hold

UL 11A

Page 7. dib

on to, something to replace it with, even if it's just his self-respect.

TIMamP-Ma meHn, ou can't do it all for hirlyaou're just there to

help him along the way, kind of like guide him. He has to want

-to do it hisself.

B: If they backslide d*mkte thislis one time they don't get in touch

with you or anything? o they feel ashamed when they backslide?

0: I believe they do. It happenseVym-ABm, quite ofteiait if you

take them to a hospital and they just go in and dry oa before

they get down here g s they've already got another bottle

with thsi it just seems like they're just going there for so

many days, but you also have those who abstain for so many months

that also drop bac-dt1 &t takes a lot of courageqounew. A d

they feel they could do it without the bottle, you know, to like

u-tit this courage, it really doesn't give them courage but

they believe it does, and that can be really a step towards their


B: Are you a Lumbee Indian?

0: Yes, I am.

B: Are proud of it?

0: Yes, I am.

B: You told us about your parents. Do you have many people living back

in North Carolina?

0: Yes, my father comes from a family of nine children and most of them

are still residing in North Carolin^XlE I have some in New York

UL 11A

Page 8. dib

and kind of scattered out 'ost of them are still in North


B: Do you enjoy visiting home?

0: Yes, I do, very much.

B: Im ye2x -w.f ..."..mt. e, Miss Oxendine, sa, what kind of

training do you have to have JB ,A a a b- i*ftee to become an alcoholics


0: Well, i'p. it depends on the facilities that you're

going to be working for. Now for here I had to go to John Hopkins

University here in Maryland -.-Wabeas-s for seven months, plus

I had to take some training down here during that seven months,

ianflkem tfe which yec a y qualified me to work for this program.

B: I've noticed that all of you IgBS, I don't mean you're alike aAEa

gu who work on the alcoholic program have this marvelous outflowing

personalities is the best way I know to express i this is very

important, knowing how to reach people and being willing. Wi there

seems to be, if you'll pardon my saying so, a special benevolence

on the part of a person like yourself. You seem to be genuinely

concerned for people. Do you think this is what makes it...

0: I believe that has something to do with it. We have had to learn

to accept people for their attitudes and beliefs and respect them

for thar that has a lot to do with i .and above all you have to

have a very deep desire to help people am but you can't, wou-samm,

UL 11A

Page 9. dib

you have to remain kind of, _jjm 3, try to put yourself in their

shoe ge-, try to r*-mm don't get too emotional with it. You have

to have some kind of courage t5lelle you could be able to help

them and not. k ktd or 'ke fall apart yourself.

B: Is there a ag1a i danger of doing this (to get too involved?

0: I believe there is. You have to keep your head. Like I said you

can't get too emotional with your client. That way he could probably

see through you and feel, in a sense, some of them do that, well,

this persons not ySa- really going to be able to help me.

In a sense they may need help theirselves3% ijn-hww. You have to

be able to put yourself in their shoes, but kind of keep yourself

back so far as not to become too emotional.

B: This is not easy to do I'm sure.

0: No, it's not. No, because a lot of them have a great way of

manipulating. An alcohol is one of the biggest manipulators,

quite known and...

B: They are good con people.

0: Right, they sure are.

B: Do you have any standard procedure or any tricks about being immune

to this, to all the con?

0: Well, egjs each one of them that comes to the door is an individual.

They're each different in every way, which each person theirself is

different. But I know of one that will come in and say, 3a=m=wk ,

UL 11A

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"give me a quarter, I need a cup of coffee sai you know anyway

that they're just going to go down and take that quarter and panhandle

enough money to where they can go get theirself a bottle. But

the biggest thing I can tell them, "Well, if you want a cup of

coffee I can fix you a cup of coffee." aLySsu that way

they kind of get the idea that thelM^ERI they're nqt you have

to be on guard with them sometimes, because if you're notlthey

can really con you int )I know they do it right in front of the

building here a lot of times, and yggStma, stop a lot of people

and ask them from money to where they can get a bottle.

B: And you think there's also then the danger that they might come

in not really because they want help but -because they want,-w-me

unhelp sort of.

0: Yes, a lot of them come in just to loiter, but you can't just turn

them away on account of that/because you want them to feel that

they have some place to come to when they do need hen -an4'd=i

.even if they're just coming here just to sit around and just talkZ

even if you talk to them for five minutes sometimes you get more

accomplished talking to them for five minutes than you can for talking

to them for an hour or more, because sometimes something you say will

stick in their memory and they'll remember it and it may have an effect

on them.

B: rEa.. -.n 1"yo rUinkt--a, I don't want to put you on the spot so

to speak or E au ask you something that will make you feel un-

comfortable. Anything you don't want to talk about we won't talk about,

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but can you think of cases that are more memorable than others,

people that their memory stays with you even after they've been


0: Yes, I can.

B: Go ahead.

0: I have one in particular whosf sober at this time and has been

sober Igm since September, and he's doing pretty well. He's looking

for a job right now, but he's still sustaining himself0l he's

living in a decent apartment am not too far from the center.

/nd he stops in every now and then to let us know how he's getting

alone ai w've been referring him to different places that he

could get a job at and so far he's holding on pretty well.

B: pretty m .

0: ...Um&- nt, he's a memorable case/and being in this type of work Od-ct

being female sometimes you have your problem like if you have a

client that you can't work with because he seems akpiI t

to get other ideas. He tried to act like he has other ideas not,

_SgS mw, to use as an excuse not to talk about hisself. Then

it's best to refer that person to another counselorlwhereas that

counselor could probably CS /1 Y0/2 .1 Now I'm speaking right

now of one man who comes inf that comes to mind he comes in and is

uerig flirting all the time and everything. But I've kind of

caught him off guard and got him to talking about hisselfand he's

not really motivated at this time.

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B: This motivation then is very important, isn't it?

0: Yes, it iSDyou have to have a real feeling to want helpa jit

takes a lot of courage in a person to take that first step and lbf--

first to admit it that they need help, admit it to themselves and

then admit it to someone else that could y ..lapiiw. be firm

or talk to them or whateverr`p .aEWi to put them on the road to


B: Well, how about AA, Alcoholics Anonymous, there a good chapter nearby?

0: Yes, we have one located at 7 South Wolf Street/which is within'-Ci y

a few blocks of henf gp they also have an AA meeting up at one of

the hospitals, Churchlin Hospital. I believe it's oniWednesday-

nights at seven-thirty. The one at St. Michaels is on Monday

nights at seven-thirty. 35i they have a =aIq group there/and

also at St. Michaels they have an .Al-Anon right across the hall

which is for wives, friends/ and relatives of alcoholicsqa5 d they

have a pretty good group there.

B: Well, their method of helping is mostly spiritual, isn't it?

0: Spiritual in a sense, yes. I have one of the books about.ZSEsOas K,

iket7#-ey-go,_their motto is 439e they go from day to day and within

the book it has 1e a little prayer that can be said each day which

helps ou and then as one of them feels kind of down or something,

they can always call another AA member or whatever. They kind of

like yajsftt, help each other to stay with them at recovery.

UL 11A

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B: Like a brotherhood, isn't it?

0: Yes, it is. It's a very good organization.

B: Are they very cooperative?

0: Yes, they are.

B:: Well, nobody has a magic cure though, do they?

0: No, they don't. If they did/there sure wouldn't be them around.

B: What do you envision for the future of a program like thismraue

dp you think our people are more susceptible to alcoholism?

0: I believe they're very susceptible, but they also say, and I have

never really seen one, maybe one or twoA4t there's no such thing

as a skidrow Indian alcoholic who hangs on the corner all the time

or sleeps in the gutter or whatever, because Indian people always

have a way of helping one another. Even if you're drunk and you

go to someone's house or whatever, half the timeor at least most

of the timeyou can always sleep it off there, because they don't

just throw you out the door or whatever. They always kind of help

one another which is a good thing.

B: Right. That is interesting. That's something that hasn't been

brought out beforeand I'm glad to hear that. But do you think

our people have a tendencybecause of their many problems that they

are more susceptible?

Oi I believe so. Indian people have a way of, they feel that they have

been put down so much that they, after a whilelthey get the bluer5

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ffi I've known a lot of Indians who drink. I had interviewed one

;ga gii i about a year ago, that believed that he had to

drink to prove that he was as good as the white mqfto show

thembecause the white man's impression of him was that he was

strong and anold saying,, 'y-gMkM a good warrioq wb e .as%=.

But he had this feeling that he had to prove himself to show that

he coulde.gdlNpw, chuck along with the rest of them as you say,

,5 which is a shaq yo-u knr 1-ll .I feel that Indian people,

mgfu.ney shouldn't be put down and I feel that they wouldn'tf/(a

gwS, the discrimination and everythingDI feel that they would,

they have a right to succeed and they can succeed, but a lot of them

don't have that confidence to succeed and they won't go ahead with

it. And a lot of them don't want to take charity. They'd rather

sit there and suffer. Well, I believe that they're entitled to

charity, whatever 4Sheyesw k ,- w, if they don't have no food

in the house or whatever. I feel that they above anyone is really

entitled to it.

B: Yes, I agree.

0: But a lot of them's not going to accept it because they have too much

pride to go ahead and ask for it.

B: And you find, bf course, this theme of pride among the Indians, which

is common to all Indians, you find this even among alcoholics.

0: Right, you sure do.

B: And something you mentioned a while ago about proving (ar0 w., that

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they can drink just like the white man. But this-&" certainly

seems to be the one area where we should not try this, right?

0: Right.

B: Where we should not try to measure up around a drinking table. You

think maybe when Indians do get drunk aiaSai Oy, are they more violent


0: Some of them are. Some of them kind of get quite-aS violent, but

there's a lot of them who just talk more or just -agE tr, get

more quieter and go inward. But there's a lot of them that get

into fights and all on account of drinking, and it's not a good thing.

B: Well, I certainly wish you godspeed with your program. As I said

I'm very, very thrilled that you people are working on i zas

zad I don't know how.the center was so fortunate to be able to

get people like yourself and the Hunts, Jacobs, and Reverend Dial.

All of you are so well-qualified and you're all humanitarians at

heart and do have this deep feeling of desire to help somebody.

But I certainly wish you godspeed. What advice would you give to

the family of a person who was an alcoholic?

0: Well, if the woman r:- ; 4W-- lT M F--nn of the family, if she really

feels that she loves him I think that she should stick by hiea)d

I know he's going to deny, and she in herself is going to deny it.

The family helps the alcoholic to deny that he has the disease to

aogin-ta ..u....l-4o begin with. They have a way of covering it up

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and it's like they can let it go on for say/seven years and it's

five years before they even admit it.

B: -teter this is bad, isn't it?

0: It is, and I feel that MZVrnfif. you could like just e have

someone come into your home or whatever, to try to get the person

to talk, which is very hard because they're not going to admit

it. i &erwt ,I know of drinkers who spread literature around

that is about alcoholics. Maybe the person JS& might just pick

it up and read it. But just to show the person that you care and

to try to talk to the person. I know the person's going to deny

it, but they will know that you tried to talk to them and they

will remember. 1Ei they may become violent about it or say,

"Well, y7gF1313 I don't have a drinking problem," or whatever.

But they, theirselves, like I said before, have to feel that they

want the help. But if you show that you have a desire, gparl a,

4MS you want to help them) armwHrw r then you're maybe accomplishing


B: *BAl&, Some people get the idea, some woman get the idea when

they are dating a fellow who happens to be an alcoholic, that if

I'm marrying him and I'm with him all the time I can really reform

him. What would you say to a girl like this who has this particular


0: Well, there's an old saying, if you fall in love with someone, you

fall in love with them the way they are and usually a woman who

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who marries an alcoholic) akmwa knows to begin with that he's

an alcohol? he's most likely been brought up in an alcoholic

family or has been around somebody that has drank quite a bit,

and she's used to the situation. And when you're quite used to

a situation like that a lot of times you'll marry right back into

the situation. But you shouldn't go into a marriage saying you're

going to reform somebody, because that's the wrong way to go

about it. J,9iWfs you're not going to make that person over. 3

iOm if you try to get the problem in another way,don't go in there

withj2gggigp your guns all a charge as they say. IJ.L like

I said, talk to the person and try to convince the person, which is

a very hard thing to do. The alcoholic above hurting hisself hurts

his loved ones an awfuli.lot. He hurts the people around him and 1".

Sh o) r oo- tjaJbused by it, and there's a lot of people that gets

hurt on account of it.

B: Do you think marriage like this and a woman like this just may

actually aggravate the situation and make it worse instead of

make it better?

0: Yes, yes, a lot of people a=r e it worse because) i-yfr IIB.

if the person's drinking and you just go to hollering and screaming

all the time, the person feels they have another reason to go out

and drink. That's an excuse for them, you know. But don't go in

saying you're going to reform him. SaM:ahn you have to really have

-4_ ._________________

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a great love for that person and convince that person yourself

that you want to help them. You're not going to come on out right

off and say, "You know, you're an alcoholic," because a lot of

times they're not going to accept it.

B: Does a lady counselor work better with other women or other men, or

with men would you think? Or does it depend?

6: It depends. Like I said each person is their own individual. You

have problems when you're a female counselor in this program with

men. I 've already 2i come up across this with one person and

that's all, and I've kind of like resolved that.


B: ye were discussion just a minute ago before the tape ran outS...

gt n f ffli 'the subject of alcoholism,

we had started talking about cases where a woman counselor or a

female counselor&qlgfdSSLL is more effective than a male counselor

and vice versa. But this is Iwee-s .i-s not always the case.

You just don't necessarily relate to another woman. Sometimes you

can relate better to another man depending on the case, is that


0: Yes, that's true, because we have some woman that call in that would

rather talk to a man than what they would talk to another woman.

B: -4r= P I read this book s ,erTa, t ls"e i ese'....u^ltr ,

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called The Alcoholic Woman, and this doctor said that when a woman

becomes an alcoholic she really hits the bottom. It's worse for her

than it is for anybody else. Do you think this has any validity?

Do you think it's pretty...

0: I think so. A woman a lot of times when she drinks, she usually

mixes it with drugs q akbi arbituates or ilis l

uppers, downers. I feel that a woman does have more of a problem

l's(i ritK because e like I said^to begin with she

will hide it an awful lot more than what a man will and she feels o

yr-"J&% put down and everything. I feel a woman myself has more

of problem than what a man does. There's more facilities for men

alcoholics than what there is for woman.

B: Hey, that's bad news. About as many of one as there is of the other

would you say?

0: What do you mean? You mean...

B: Do you have any kind of statistics at all to show what the number

is among alcoholics who are men and alcoholics who are women? How

do the two sexes compare with each other?

0: No, I don't have any statistics at the time, the most current ones

I don't.

B: T*lla ok, but how does it run, do you have a general idea, any idea at

all about whether there are more men alcoholics or more wom'h or is

it about'equal?

0: We had a paper here a while back. I can't remember the number. It

UL 11A

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was pointed out there wer-%ore men than what there were women. But

like I said *XftE, the women are more of a hidden alcoholic, and

there may be a lot of women out there whosf hidden that we don't

even know about yet.

B: I read a book sometime ago called Eighty-eight Men and Two Women.

This book was written by the warden of a prison and these numbers

referred to people who had been execute as this warden was against

capital crime and the implication of the title was t f the

inequality here. Here are eighty-eight men who have been put to

death and during the same period only two women. What I want to

ask you is this, do you think a woman is capable o more serious

crime)? is she worse morally)or are they about equal ow-wihm

an whjat would you think makes for this difference? GP is it

because a woman is generally kinder and more gentle by nature?

0: It's known tha-t-w n aSYi is more sensitive to things and she's

more emotional f whereas a man doesn't show as much emotion

like crying or whatever. 4Hes-bi then again that could be

society putting a standard. Whereas a man shouldn't cryi l BUJai

like in front of other people. If he cries he's usually crying

alone. But a womanlike I said is more sensitive and she has more

outbreaks of emotion I've seenthan what a man does.
A een,~than what a man does.
B: Do you think this is a healthier condition, that a woman, her very

deep feelings she can let off steam, so to speak, by crying, whereas

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a man can't and isaEW, it may manifest itself in some JatTd or other?

0: Yes, I believe this. Holding in too much emotion has an awful effect

on people. Like a lot of times r ulceeca.w.i

Igs that's one of the things. Tte if you feel something and you

feel hurt a/snlrra r I think it's very healthy to cry or even

SiMMaUfk to holler it out or whatever. It doesn't hold goodo=ar

1*n= to keep it inside all the time constantly like that.

B: wMIa li, well, perhaps this explains a lot of things, even the crime

rate, the difference in crime rates. I'm sure the problems, those

type problems, emotional problems. But I'm thinking now about another

question. A woman who is a skSaf h*A m W skiow alcoholic,

you don't find as many as thoseagg as you do among men?

0: No, you don't. You see, like I said you mostly see a lot of men

alcoholics' skirow, within this area and around down by the harbor

you see a lo6.f-ekw-du But I very seldom seen a woman, you know,

just walking on the streets and laying in the alley or whatever.

Even if she's an alcoholic she usually has some place that she can


B: One more question, we know that if people are going to drink it's going

to be expensive or at least it's going to cost money and they have to

have money to support their habits even as in the case of drugs. Do

you think that women o.-ewa nF- .xp, -.m might have an easier way

of supporting her problem than a man or do you think that women some-

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times revert to this in order to support their own particular habit

whereas a man couldn't do this?

0: Well, a woman can use her body for her habit. A man now he can

more likely panhandle and manipulate people or con people into

giving him money or whatever to support his habit, or steal something

and then sell it for more than what it cost on the shelf. -frd-

-, -
SI -feel, you kno .--ar-6una- s T a t im Blaiiiifte 47c s

B: Mdamh. well, maybe this is, this is why we don't' have as many sta-

tistics on women as on men. Perhaps the woman's way of supporting

her habit is more hidd iti if a man steals something he generally

gets caught and it comes out in court. But the woman, the woman's

activities could be hidden because these things, they often

doOt 10Cour(t These are the secret things. So then the

conclusion seems to be that the statistics are incomplete and

necessarily so, where the woman is concerned or more incomplete

than where a man is concerned. And I guess there isn't any good

way of bringing those statistics to the light in as much as women

don't ask for help as often as men?

0: No, they don't, and then when you talk about statistics, you know, it's

usually when they're set up and so on like so many set of people and

you can't always go by that for many set of people.

B: dfCI h, in other words if you're studying a group of people who go

to John Hopkins and check in or ask to be checked into the hospital

for treatment. It's very easy to take those numbers and count them.

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but you don't count those that don't come in.

0: Right.

B: And that makes it very difficult to make a valid study in this area.

Well, this has certainly been a very encouraging ad enlightening

and inspiring interview. I notice that you don't have a pessimistic

attitude toward alcoholism whereas many people might have. You

don't seem to be overly pessimistic about it and you're optimistic.

I'm wondering what is the source of your optimism? What gives you

this optimism, this hope that you haven't given up on the alcoholics,

too; 4-MM nigrwzM

0: No, I haven't, no.

B: Do you know what it is, why you're this way?

0: Well, I feel that, you know, that we're all et i 4r together,

and I believe that people should love and respect one another no

matter whatf1yaBa:*Im, their attitudes, their beliefs or whatever

you kno;"polu-.come-ean s Like a person being an alcoholic, if

this person doesn't feel that they can come to someone, eaimlSl,

then something worse can result of it, 1wasMCm, because they don't

have anything, just theirsel -iyIga w, they just drown in that:,

sorrow. We've had some people who have tried to commit suicide, who

have actually committed suicide. You have to have a genuine feeling

to love peopleand for no matter if they don't E f thing

about you or whatever you just have to have the feeling to care and

to want to help.

B: It's wonderful and I tknk God that we have people like that in the

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world. It's what makes life worth living I guess, is when you find

somebody with your attitude and so on. asaBag generally speaking

would you say the alcoholic problem is greater than the drug problem

in volume?

0: I believe it is. There's a lot of young people that gama ,

drinking also heavy,and I believe alcoholism is a very big problem.

B: Well, in dealing with alcoholics, will an alcoholic- -.i *"ia -.a a

also take drugs and other things?

0: Yes, they will and alcohol is considered a drug to begin with. 'ThM

a lot of times if you mix alcohol with another drug/then it's worse

than just with alcohol alone. Alcohol alone is worse enough.

B: 'S^,ShJaoiBSx, there's a lot of pot floating around everywhere

they say, yet you don't hear much about it within recent months.

Do you think this is because people have accepted the idea that pot

is here to stay/ or they've decided that it:isn't as serious as it

was once believed to be?

0: Well, it hasn't really been proven to a point how much effect it

could have on you. I mean it causes illusions and whatever, but it

hasn't been provenggg to have a real, real bad effect as

what I've known.

B: Of course you can hear all kinds of stories p1 m amm, about anything with

which we're not familiar and certainly there have been stories about

marijuanaa and its effects. For examplelback home in Lumberton, North

Carolina, or rather near Fayetteville, which is just a little bit far-

ther-on, there was a newspaper report recently that a young man who

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had been smoking pot raped his own mother. This is pretty sensational

-.advssa=W.' But do you think it has tremendous effect when it does

have bad effect?

0: Yes, really it depends on how much you smoked, if you're mixing it

with somethia some people have a tendency to be mor usceptible

to something than what other people is.

B: 1Wexah, well, I want to thank you so very much for this very enlightening

and informative interview, and I want to wish you godspeed in your

work. You're a great asset to the community and to alJ of us. Thank

you so very much.

0: It's been my pleasure.

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