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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida.
SJ 2A
Subject: Halstead "Hoss" Manucy
Interviewer: Edward Kallal, Jr.
St. Augustine, Fla. February 21, 1976
K: I want to thank you for just consenting to talk like this and Ikn, you know, trying
to collect the evidence from all sides and so that's why we're talking. We're
going to start at the beginning now. Are you a native St. Augustinian?
M: Born and raised.
K: Really? What's it like to grow up in St. Augustine?
M: I imagine just like growing up anywhere else.
K: Yeah?
M: It's just all my family been here for 200 years.
K: Two hundred years?
M: Yes. Came in 1769 I think and they landed.;/jv /i y Sr,y,-v and most of them
-wAefded tI/r f &-0 M ,s- -/ settled ,/or ,, /"
K: You've got pretty deep roots here then, huh?
M: That's true. That's why we like to fight for it.
K: Is it true that report there said that you used to play football for Sheriff Davis?
M: Sheriff Davis was my coach.
K: What was this, high school.or the...?
M: High School.
K: High School. Did you ever go to college or was high school...?
M: Oh no. Just &aaPd in high school.
K: You said you working at a asKA now, what kind?
M: J03 shop. j, /oAr Chrysler Plymouth and i-she-othzr place. Same
man owns them both. I work mostly on the road.
K: What do you mean on the road?
M: Well, I haul cars back and forth to get new cars and deliver new cars.
SJ 2A
Page 2 McKenzie
K: Uh huh, I see., $
tM: (IOU, ( 4 3'- to the auction over there.
K: Uh huh.
M: I've been with him 21 years.
K: Yeah? That's a long time. How-how would you say generally the
uh uh race relations were like before the crisis of '63-'64?
M: Mostly no problems.
K: No?
M: None whatsoever. And really it wasn't no big problem with the
local colored at all. They were just outsiders....
K: Yeah?
M: ...and then a few locals got into it....
K: Uh huh.
M: ...mostly it was all outsiders.
K: What about that uh fella Hailing, the uh dentist?
M: Well, he wasn't a native from here. He was an outsider. He
didn't stay here long. So-he was a dentist, I think.
that
K: Yeah, uh huh. So, you'd sayAthe relations were pretty good then
M: Well, I uh we never had no problem with them, put it that way,
you know, and uh and really didn't have a big problem other
than outsiders. Just like I said--people from Massachusetts and
SJ 2A
Page 3 McKenzie
/ 4IS/ Peabody and people like that come down and train
tellin' us what they were gonna do.
K: Uh huh.
M: Well, I imagine St. Augustine bein' the oldest city in the
United States t0( 40j6/ A/kfe 4A1, 4S what they gonna do.
K: Yeah. Well, would you mind then weighing-sort of weighing the
pluses and minuses of the segregation uh that existed before
the crisis and the integrated uh thing that they tried to put
in afterwards and uh would you say it was better? Worse? Or,
how would you characterize this change uh...
M: Well, it wasn't I.&te White people ____, ,_ when they passed
a law
K: Yes...
M: And there's nothing' in it-constitution ^ constitution
for White people whatsoever.
K: You mean tha/Civil Rights Act of '64?
M: Yeah, yeah. It's uh when they passed that in Congress it wasn't-
they wasn't considering' Wite people whatsoever...
K: Yeah. But uhh....
M: It was improvement for colored people and uh but there's White
people need improvement too...
K: Yeah.
SJ 2A
Page 4 McKenzie
M: ...but they didn' consider that.
K: So, you say you think that the uh integration has helped the
acks but uh....
M: Oh, definitely!
K: Yeah?
M: Yeah, I think its' helped 'em. And-and more of 'em is working' and
I think it's helped them, I don't think it-' e no way it hurt
tem.
K: Uh huh. So uh so then maybe this thing has been for the better?
The uh integration?
M: Welll, uh in some ways-yes. It's helped all way around, you
know, lots of time most of 'em wasn' working wasn't payin'
taxes like we were...
K: Uh huh.
M: ...and naw C got pretty good jobs, moved into some good
jobs.
K: How-how would you say it-it isn't better? The uh integration and
the uh ....
M: Well, like I say it isn't better-it-it's jus for the colored people.
K: Uh huh, yeah.
M: The-the uh lower class white people can't get the same breaks
they get.
SJ 2A
Page 5 McKenzie
/LC
K: Because-because they're white, huh?
M: Oh, well, I won't say that now-I'll say it's from something .
K: Mm hm.
M: I mean uh uh Chinese or Japanese can't come over and get the
same things that they get....
K: Mm hm.
M: So, // 4 .4 A/, ,/a x -,
K: but you do think it was a benefit for the Blacks?
M: Oh, definitely. for the blacks!
K: You-you think that was their uh that was the lacks'--Backs'
A' ,4 4,(l --A, 2
goals in -in the uh crisis-- f/
M: Well, really, uh....
M: Really now on account of uh they still after something' all the
time-more and more all the time.
K: So, what do you think was their?_ __ f
M: Welll, I really don't know. I mean I-I got out of it in '64--I
was ordered to get out bytfederal judge. And uh which I had nothing'
else to do with it after--well, maybe '65...
K: Mm hm.
M: Close to '65. I don't know the exact date hen I: got out. And I-I
SJ 2A
Page 6 McKenzie
went to federal court over this thing 37- about 37 times.
K: 37 times?!
M: And uh...
K: Up in Jacksonville c 4 _/// u V/S Or) ?
M: Yes, SuprememnCourt. And uh which uh was just a budich of stuff
-just something' more or less to aggravate us, you know, so--
But uh in the end it all worked out all right.
K: Mm hm.
M: So, I don't really see--no way shape or form-it was anything for
the white people.I mean I-I do say that Judge Simpson and taem
treated me 'bout-'bout as good as a man could be treated.
O ka '
K YeU1-? He was courteous to you and uh...?
M: Oh, he always was and and uh they-they kept-they kept bringing'
K: Simon, I think. A guy from Miami?
M: Yeah. He kept-well, he uh these niggers had me sub-poened up
there -sometime and uh I'd been up there so much they just
called me on the telephone and told me you be there tfr el-'
K: Ah ha hah.
M: It was just more or less aggravatin', you know. And uh for a long
time I didn' get paid for it....
SJ 2A
Page 7 McKenzie
K: Mm hm.
M: But the judge ordered them they had to pay me for every trip and
mileage that I made up -f] ...
K: Yeah?
M: That was goin' / /r- sub-poena....
K: Yeah, that's ,__ _
M: But uh uh really and truly there wasn't that much--well, they
actually gain nothing you know, exactly nothing They lost
face.- they lost ground, they lost everything here-till after
tie. um law was passed--this happened before ,'1 ~ f s r s-/.
K: So, you'd say that the uh if-if even there wasn't even if there
weren't any uh uh demonstrations or marches the facks would've
gained the same thing?
M: Well, uh after the law passed the federal government took it over...
K: Yeah.
M: I mean-and it's a known fact that you can't fight the federal
government.
K: Well, they're big! Heh heh heh heh.
that
M: Heh heh heh. But uh under the circumstances we had here they
uh the main thing he come in and said he was-gonna take St. Aug-
ustine over and -in 9-10 days....
K: Who was that?
SJ 2A
Page 8 McKenzie
M: Martin Luther King.
K: Martin Luther King?
M: Which he uh he really didn't gain no ground whatsoever here
which
and uh and in fact, they did swim on the beach/\ that's no
-ha/
big deal--they had a better beach than we did to start with
/, /O/A'/ '- /' right up against ours.
K: Reh heh heh.
M: So, that still wasn' a big deal and it took 30 or 40 highway
patrol to wade out there with uniforms on to do that.
K: Yeah.
M: So, we never had no-we had man during' that time killed--a
White boy...
K: Mr. _d ?
M: Canard.
K: Canard?
M: That was his sis- my daughter's his sister-in-law....
K: Really?
M: And that-the one that come in here and popped the little boy--
that's his brother--baby brother. He's married to the one that was
driving' the pick-up.
K: Mm hmm.
M: But uh and that was more or less--really more or less f1j 1 /
SJ 2A
Page 9 McKenzie
K: How-how did that happen?
M: Well, we--I really don't know-- I mean I-I think right at the
time I-I'd been out of town 4h either 'acksonville or Lake City
establishing club over there and uh when I got back I heard about
it and uh. well he hadn't dead at the time but the man shot oh,
6we
across a park from i street to another with a .38 pistol and
you know it just c ....
K: That-that's hard to do.
M: ^f ?T ^,f 1'
K: I couldn't hit that house with a .38 much less if // */,rf i,'a
M: You couldn't hit that car --._. fl;v/ ___ you couldn't hit
a man right in the temple and knock his brains out.
K: Not if you're trying .
M: And then uh we got together right fast and I used one of Sheriff
Davis patrol cars came to -came to his mother and stuff
in Jacksonville.
K: Mm hm.
M: Uh she didn' have no way ,,d e one of the boys in the club
uh took her up there but he was dead when we got there.
K: Yeah, yeah. Well, when you say probably referring to the uh ancient
city---
M: gifvc" (14 /e/,
'SJ 2A
'Page 10 McKenzie
"K: Uh there's--that's, you know-there's a big controversy over that
and I've read,you know,several different descriptions of,you
know, what the club was--could you--could you explain ioor
M: It was a huntin club--we had a place out here where we hunted. It
was a big club open for the public....
K: Anybody could join?
M: Anybody could come in and hunt and we had several United States
marshall come up and hunt with us and uh that was......
K: That was Mr. / C lfl ?
M: We had uh 9 niggers that 'e.out rith us one time.
K: Oh, yeah?
M: And --- /c /A
We never had no trouble with them or problems with them whatsoever
But it was uh ancient city huntin' club--we had cards made up
and all and you could donate to it you wanted to. And uh we pro-
tected it from fires and things like that--we patrolled it our-
self.
K: There was I believe Mr. _/___S .
M: cr yeah.
K: Yeah.
M: But was uh Robinson 4i, Company but Lee-e owned it.
K: Uh huh.
SJ 2A
Page 11 McKenzie
M: I was in charge of it. We had our own camp out there and every-
thing, and we killed a lot of deer
K: Is the uh club still in existence?
M: Ahh, no, they closed that Ieee altogether.
K: Oh, yeah?
M: Do -do you mean do we still hunt?
K: Oh, I meant, you know, sort of in anorganized way.
M: No, no, they've uh closed that s <(-/k down -they closed it
last year.
K: Mm hm.
M: Yeah. )as up til last year but uh it-it-well it's just the
,i ja j c,' g .got all the pastures now, you know.
That's what we was -having--that's why we formed this club--
where the litttAe man'd have a place to hunt .
K: Yeah.
M: But it-- and we real good. We had it from '52 uh
up to a couple of years ago.
K: Uh. But how many people would you say were in it?
M: We has as high as eleven -eleven hundred.
K: Eleven hundred, huh?
M: And uh we'd see a member ship card--course yo hat you want
give-anywhere from three dollars up....
K: Yeah.
SJ 2A
Page 12 McKenzie
M: I mean we're--if a kid wanted to go huntin' he-if he didn' have
it with a card you gotta honor card to take somebody with you.
And uh we had a lot of kids in it too --young kids coming' up
hunting .
K: I don't believe I--I've never hunted deer but I've done duck
huntin' before and it's....
M: But we had uh we had several ponds up there to hunt duck too
and it was some turkey out there and-b squirrel....
K: I understand turkeys are hard to kill?
M: Yeah. It's aad business you use
,------- you' re liable to get shot-there's too
many amateurs out there.
K: Ah hah hah--a little dangerous huh?
Well, did the-did the-did the club in an organized way uh partic-
ipate in aaagSasissiy in the counter-demonstrations and stuff
a~d ,'<^ reoc,^ ...?
M: Yeah, we--we retal--we re-when they paraded in town? We paraded
in nigger town.
K: Well, what do you mean-how would you all go about that?
M: Just all got together and just paraded down there with the law
just like they done.
K: What do you mean--just marchin' and--?
SJ 2A
Page 13 -McKenzie
M: Marchin'...yeah.
K: Well, all right -you-you know I & roK' s 5 t'1'* .
fl stuff in Miami-Herald and uh....
M: Welll....Daytona Papewras the only onethat give us a rough time.
K: Uh huh.
M: I just-you know-- I just wanted to verify a couple of things that
that I read in this paper and you tell me if there true or false
you know, qualify them or what and it was in the Herald that I
read that y'all would carry guns in your cars in the uh while the
uh demonstrations were going on-you kept...
M: I carried a gun.
K: Yeah?
M: I was ordered by the state and by the sheriff's department be-
cause my life had been threatened several times.
K: Oh, really? Who uh threatened you?
M: Well, we don't really know but uh I mean-I never carried it on me.
I always carried it in the car.. I 4-r i/ everywhere I went in
the car.
K: Mm hm.
M: But uh SMeo "/ i_ club,no, they didn' carry guns.
K: They didn' carry guns?
M: Nah. Now,the law when they marched with us they carried guns- and
blackjacks and everything else.
SJ 2A
,Page 14 -McKenzie
-K: Were they sheriff's police and uh....?
M; Highway patrol.
K: Highway patrol?
M: Yeah.
K: What about uh-what about the uh you know, it's widely reported
that y'all used the citizen band radio to coordinate-?
M: we had citizen band radio s all of
us had had citizen band. I think in any club t, / Ae-
in. St. Augustine we had about 32 .,/ -5. ,
Adwe had better set up and well, we just patrolled all day and
all night--.;we knew what was goin' on all the time.
K: nM hm.
M: And uh but we done it legal--all the radios was legal....
K: Yeah.
M: We worked on our own band and we worked with the city police and the
sheriff's department.
K: Well-well what exactly would you patrol for?
M: Well, just like sometime twelve o'clock at night they'd get uh
uh a parade together and they gonna parade up town, see. y,/
O/,0 ,
ry f ^ 7 / Ae-r o r-1 0 and then they were gonna do it
any how.
K: Uh huh.
SJ 2A
Page 15 McKenzie
M: And they just got to stop-that's all. But uh and then somebody'd
call us on the radio-they'd-well, we just had somebody everywhere.
K: Mm hm.
M: Like when they went to the beaches-we knew it before they ever
got there.
K: .m!
M: And that they were goin' and it's just like .___
police work 4r "Oc thing else.
K: And then when you found out where they were going you would uh-?
M: We--we'd go there.
K: Yeah.
M: See what was goin' on. See if there was any foul play or anything
far as them swimming' in the ocean--we didn' give a damn about it.
K: Uh huh. Who-who was it that would uh t. 40 eioJ Sheriff Davis
said the uh you know, the young whites would be out there trying'
to dunk 'em and stuff. Who you know who ---?
M: Oh, them were kids-individuals.
K: Yeah?
M: Uh um there was a lot uh people--you'd be surprised at the tour-
ists and %-/,,o just didn' like it you know....
K: Yeah?
M: It wasn't uh but I wouldn't get wet for/ tm myself. But uh you uh
SJ 2A
Page 16 McKenzie
f they had uh uh salt water mission boys--they were out there in
boats--
K: Uh huh.
M: ...protectin' 'em and I-I don't believe they ever tried to drown
'em--they tried to scare 'em--they did run 'em out of the water
several times....
K: Mm hm. So, what you all would just uh the ancient city hunting club
would just go down and, you know, uh just sort of watch the pro-
ceedings or what?
M: Well, we usually knew what was going' on all the time we-we had
somebody there that could e ;/ ,, i t-r ^ /, /. '
, oi ar. We had our own band and uh we uh strictly 0e.'fn .i/ ," '/ .
K: Yeah.
M: And uh we had nothing' connection' with the city police or nothing'
with the sheriff's department on the radios.
K: They-they- __ ----- __ -- ?
M: __ ___~ Their radios was their own. 7 - ./r AL
e'/ ll // a r' ? .'. work together ...
K: But y'all didn't work together on...?
M: No, strictly CB's.
K: Uh huh.
M: Now, we had good ones-we didn' have no trash. We could talk
nearly the sme -. J nr /a're ss with 'em.
SJ 2A
Page 17 .McKenzie
K.: Were the--uh why 4 't the integrationists seek the injunction
against you?
M; Well, they just try anything they could think of to try to tie
me up you know. It just wasn' ia4> t -f ,"/ay ,
I didn' do anything.
K: Well, if--
M: It's ;not illegal to go any where there's a bunch of niggers.
K: Yeah, I understand that but I's just, you know, wondering' why
why would they uh why would they try to / A / cw'o?
M: Well, that's why I imagine the judges sewed it all up in the
end-cause ther+wadn't nothing' to it. The uh sheriff went up
there and the county judge and uh the mayor and all of us was
up at federal court ft- ,?A g I
I was uh mostly up there --the most uh....
K: Well, uh the papers reported uh another organization called uh
Manuc.'s Raiders--is that the -_ ?
M: Well, you-you -that was just picked up cause uh like you say
there was uh bunch of Manuc s here and that was just uh some-
thin' picked up. There never was such a thing as -as ManucY
Raiders. Still we // O /f I give 'em to the
sheriff the judge one and uh tkuw y "-7,,l-. Yr7 "*Q s
S_._ _,,_-_ r _/'S'___
SJ 2A
Page 18 -McKenzie
/ (
S__ _s a i d n o I a i n t g o i n o u t t h e r e I s a i d w e l l ,
you're welcome to come if you want.
K: Rhmmp.
M: And uh but that's just something' that got started -the newspapers
thought of some-individ uals thought....
K: So eh that's just mostly uh --- ?
M: Mostly talk.., ,o// 7 / T { rC A
K: I uh I read in another place and Sheriff Davis kinda confirmed it
that HRing had uh you know had a little organization uh also.
Was he uh as well organized as uh y'all?
M: Oh, definitely not.
K: Nobody was.
M: Not even the sheriff's department or the police department.
K: Yeah?
M: Uhm like I said we uh had good equipment to work with and we
worked ,, with the sheriff's department and the
police department. ---- they was there--
or uh they had a few little _crO uptown--some knockin'
around but /,// other than "_ __,_> _'j-/r
then /
and uh and uhAthey had a little c .. ..- ic'
up there one night and bustin' --4,/?- 7/,/
----_------------_ ---- photographers. They were ordered
SJ 2A
Page 19 McKenzie
not to parade and we were too. And we didn' and they decided
they was goin' to do it anyhow.
that
K: Mm hm. Well, uh Sheriff Davis, you know, says4you're not- and
I've read uh several articles sayin' that you're not also uh
in the Klan--but Simpson claims you were and let's see who else
M: 4 Simpson never claimed I was.
K: Re said that the uh ancient city hunting club was uh was uh
a C_/_______. -
M: He was _/_ a=the-ub.h_ but it was never proven.
K: No, uh and I believe the House -on unAmerican Commit- Activities
Committee said that the ancient city hunting club was Ce icurA)
number 519 of the United Florida KKK..uh was this true?
M: Well, well, I don't know I'm a Catholic and I don't ivr a7 /4
94re4r e_ (2E$<-s O' A^ c 4'
K: Mm am.
M: All the Manucys is Catholic, see?
K: Yeah.
M: We were born and raised Catholic. In fact, all my people were, so
uh Well C 4tia vu we'd uh they'd been around....
K: From the ancient city?
M: Uh no, from St. Augustine.
"K: Mm hm.
SJ 2A
Page 20 McKenzie
M: And they uh wasn't from Florida /,a//f /- Alabama.
K: Uh huh.
Governor's
M: .And uh down in4Wallace's old kicking grounds.
K: Yeah.
M: But uh I met some fine people in the Klan.
K: Yeah?
M: And I think it's just as legal as the NAACP.
K: Well, it's not --it's not an illegal organization. So, you
would say the ancient city hunting club was not uh a part of
the clan, was not a klavern?
M: No.
K: No? Uh I know you say you think it is a good organization-
it's uh....
M: The Klan?
K: Yeah.
M: Definitely!
K: Well could you describe for me what uh what you think their goals
are, their uh-why is it good?
M: Well, I wouldn't know cause I don't know that much about it.-
most of th1fr stuff was all secret anyhow.
K: Mm hm, yeah they are a secret organization.
M: So, uh you wouldn't--they'd have to trust you --" 1T0 Jw-J /t
SJ 2A
Page 21 McKenzie
/ / / '-' I"^ ''.
Sf / meetings : speaking and uh
well uh they just talk facts....
M: Uh huh.
K: .-,r'2. up north and how they-the niggers was acting up
there and /4ert, they had everything in the world and all
the freedom they wanted....
K: Uh huh.
M: /,, / New Jersey-- they preached on the facts and uh
I liked it myself uh I used to go -to all their speeches and
things and -ayu kIv I went all the way to Alabama to one.
K: Oh yeah?
M: And I'd go down south to 'em, but uh I never seen uh a whatcha-
.call real bad man in the Klan.
K:, Uh huh.
M: Everybody I met was just tops.
K: Mmm htm. Did they have many meetings around here during the uh--?
M: In St. Augustine?
K: Yeah. During the uh crisis?
M: They had a lot of uh uh wide open speakings....
K: Yeah.
M: ...had 'em in the park and uh they had 'em out there by the bowlin'
alley and uh the law was always therext4-fqS.
SJ 2A
Page 22 -McKenzie
K: Uh did you know--did....
M: And they didn' go veiled or nothing' they went in an,
outfit /.
K: I don't believe eh-it's against the law to wear a mask, I believe.
M: Yep.
K: Did you uh know the one fella from Atlanta named J.B. Stoner?
M: Yep, real well.
K: Well, what did you think of him?
M: Ob he was a hell of a nice guy.
K: Yeah? Uh would you-could you uh describe to me your relationship
with him?
M: Well, he uh ,;-i defended me in Jacksonville.
K: Yeah.
M: Stoner did.
K: Uh huh.
M: And he worked with uh uh a local lawyer here, Frank Howard.
K: Frank Howard?
M: Mm
K: So uh ....
M: But Frank Howard was my lawyer.
K: Uh huh. Would you say in terms of--in terms of the uh coy / I/
//
SJ 2A
Page 23 .McKenzie
/, .that
M: Well, he knew the law, i/ -r / Rhe's a man knows the
law.
K: Yeah, he is. He's a--from what I understand, he's a very good
attorney. Uhh did you all have-other than a, you know, a client
"--attorney-- M 1
L_ --__,._ relationship_-as far as I know uh his standard
was--he was uh the firm's lawyer from Georgia. I mean, the
klan, I guess you call 'Zm, I don't know how, what they went
by .
K: Uh huh.
M: But uh and he like I say, if we got a place to have 'im //)_//_r
they weVL they were goinna have a speaking tonite
a lot of the times if we could help them with it we helped them
with it, getting' you know, permits and things.They didn' do
nothing' without permission.
K: Sheriff Davis kind said the Klan uh, you know, when they came
in they sorta looked to you for, you know, a little help in
organizing ...
M: ,. -53 7 yes, then uh we just didn' want no-
body getting' outta line. I mean you can't--you can't control a
thousand people.
K: Yeah. Is-is-would you say that's be about the size of the-that
would show up for the uh klan meetings?
SJ 2A
Page 24 -McKenzie
if
M: Well, I wouldn't say that now. I'd say uh/it was necessary
they could &et ninety thousand!
K: Yeah.
M: But uh uh most of these people--just ordinary people--go out
to these speaking and things ov6 J1r\.
K: Mm hm.So7-
you'd
M: It's amazin' -fl iVaJ unless A heard it yourself, you know.
K: Nn hn.
M: And we had t niggers to go out there one night....
night
K: Yeah, the uh the / out by the drive-in ?
M: By the uh bowling alley.
K: Bowling alley? Yeah. I understood they got thrashed out there
pretty bad.
M: They come in through the back claiming' they was goin' fishing'
in the dark.
K: Yeah.
M: But now that was Klan.
K: Were you--were you out there that night?
M: I was there.
K: Uh huh.
M: But they really didn't get hurt. We uh stopped it right away--
the sheriff's department was there in just a few minutes....
K: Nn hn.
"-SJ 2A
-Page 25 McKenzie
M: ...put a stop to it. They -At /,: cre/, /',,
K: So, you would say that, you know, other than, you know, other
than working, other than Mr. Stoner uh being, you know,
partially representing you uh y'all worked fairly closely to-
gether uh?
M: Oh, yeah. We-we were very close. They would come in and
and we had one uh 1/ / i/-, / L
--------------------1
/
over where that bread place is now which was a bakery then.
And we helped them get the property...
K: Uh huh.
M: ...and get the lease on i4and uh 77 / 7//--/7 //'6 n/14kr
that owned city bakery at that time and he give us permission,
you know....
K: Yeah.
M: We had a lot uh help and it was just like uh everybody here
was working' together--the mayor, the city police, sheriff's
department, Ancient City Huntin' Club, 'n uh-- we really
didn't need anymore. We was quite jI _.
K: Uh huh.
M: And they would knock windows out around town.
K: Was that the klan?
M: Nooo. They're--colored.
K: Uh huh.
SJ 2A
Page 26 McKenzie
M: The klan didn't do nothing' like that--they didn't go around bustin'
windows and things like that.
K: Who do you think--who do you think uh threw the fire bomb into that--
that motel--Manson Motel?
M: Uh that--it was definitely colored.
K: Think so?
M: Definitely.
K: I thought the bomb went in uh after the Civil Rights demonstration
had been passed and uh t.Y- T/l7 il, cd
M: Welll...
K: .. At integrated and then, you know, it was, you know, being -
M: Welll, you was s'posed to integrate.
K: Yeah, but at one--then white counterpickets, you know, picketed
them, didn't they?
M: Uhh, I don't think they ever picketed _7J i', at the
Manson...
K: No?
M: That's where they put them gators in the swinnmin' pool there?
K: And then--the acid in the swimming' pool?
M: Noo, bleach.
K: Bleach? Well, you know....
M: Ha hah ha hah ha.
SJ 2A
SPage 27 McKenzie
K: -/k// W, fioc'J he was pretendin' he was S7r/
Well, what about--what about the uh uh klansman named uh Connie
L- yrc/A
j Sk^ Did you know him?
M: Real.u. well.
K: Yeah?
M: ( !, done most--he was a preacher and he knew his
business.
K: Uh huh.
M: And them,they would come down here from-them two preachers'd come
down here from up north and anything they wanted to ask him he
could answer...
K: Yeah.
M: /hl,/ eieLj he ave open debate with 'em any time--right in
A
the park.
K: And so you'd say you worked kinda close with him too?
M: Oh, all of 'em, yeah. Cause they --they-they were radical people
and they --they were in to let you know what was going on because
it had happened to them first. He was out in Little Rock and then
in Alabama and uh he--he just knew what was going' on. What--what
they were up to.
K: Uh so you would say you worked with them say similar to the way you
worked with uh Mr. SToner?
M: Yeah. They'd been to my house 3 times and I'd been to where they
stayed.
SSJ 2A
-Page 28 McKenzie
K: Yeah. Where--where did they stay down here?
M: Ahh, at the motels mostly.
K: Uh huh.
M: But um...
K: And so, you all would get together and coordinate your marches
your counter-demonstrators, or what...?
M: Welll, you see we--for a long time we didn't have any marches.
We just figured the only way to beat them was to beat 'em on
their own game.
K: Uh huh.
M: And it worked.
K: Wh-whaddya mean? That's why you brought up the marches?
M: Yeah.
K: Uh huh.
banner
M: And uh we had big on the front of it-uh a man and his wife
towed it--with a big rattlesnake on it that says, "Don't Tread
On Me", and it led the parade.
K: Yeah.
M: We were awful quiet, we didn't make no /4Ai.-//, we didn't put out
a -------- or nothing' like that, you know.
K: Uh huh.
M: It's uh--we got up there one time and they-they jumped /1?r / 7/ J/
parade--was just a matter of a few minutes 'n a few of 'em got
their heads knocked but uh....
SJ 2A
Page 29 McKenzie
K: Yeah.
M: ...there was enough law right there to handle it.
K: When the blacks would march out uh were you and Mr. Stoner and
Mr. Lynch organizing the people that,.you know, would uh gather
and watch the marches and stuff?
M: Oh, no, definitely not. Just people Wo / ,/,' -/ ./ '-" c ,
K: They would be their own, but the marches you organized?
M: The marches we--we--we kinda-kinda set 'em--every time they'd
march, we'd march.
K: But uh uh the straight counterdemonstrators and the guys that
were uh, you know, uh .,/te 7 on .
M: Js people coming' in town uh
they were mostly people outta town so you had /' ri. .
K: Yeah?
M: And uh sometime there'd be 3 or 4 bus loads of 'em come in
here and uh they had a lot of kida from jumior college in Pal-
atka and different ones around, you know, so....
K, 'They'd come up here for counterdemonstrations....
M: Oh, yeah....
K: ... and dunkin" blacks in the wade-ins and stuff?
M: Yeah...well, I don't know about that. I think that was just
kids on the beach who didn't like them on their beach cause
we wasn't--whites wasn't --the sheriff didn't allow the whites
down nigger beach.
SJ 2A
Page 30 McKenzie
K: Uh huh.
M: He didn't want 'em down there meddlin' with nobody.
K: What uh-were there many uh local uh,you know, you said some
of--most of fri 'were out of state-were there many local
uh klansmen involved, you know, from the St. Augustine, St.
Johns area?
M: Well, I didn't know none of 'em.
K: No?
M: Uh I knew everybody that was in the Ancient City.Huntin' Club
but I didn't know--I don't think-it was just like uh they-we
h o, e
probably had some you know ?
K: Yeah.
M: I don't know.
K: But you didn't know of them, huh?
M: huh uh.
K: Uh what (.out the klansmen from Jacksonville? Did you uh...?
M: A lot of 'em come down.
K: A lot of klansmen?
M: A lot { n i- -knew and uh I went to several of their
meeting's up there. They had these big rallies, you know.
K: Were they having them while the riots were going on? The rallies?
M: Oh, ye ah.
K: Yeah?
SJ 2A
Page 31 McKenzie
M: They had them in Jacksonville, different places and uh....
K: And so you were uh--you'd send some people up 7"$, A41 L), ,'r ?
M: Our people -- ---------- -_ ---__---___
none of them --------- up there.
K: Uh huh.
M: We, you know, find what was goin' on cause this here like I say
this Connie Lynch he'd been around. He'd uh been plenty of places
where this same thing was happenin....
K: Yeah.
M: ....already had happened....
K: Yeah.
M: ...and uh....
K: Uhh what about uh I--I believe I read one time this uh the klan
uh from Jacksonville got in touch with you to get this one fella
C' QNv
a job down here uh-I believe the fella's name was uh Roseggant?
M: I don't know 'im.
K: No? Uh I--I--I don't remember the facts, you know, just, you know,
the way I read it but I mean--got him a job on a fishing' boat or
something you got 'im? Don't know if you recall, huh?
M: INot that I recall. 0.
K: Okay, on the other hand, what do ou think the NAACP and the EtL .SC/(
rq we re all about?
M: Well, it's uh for betterin' the black is all.
SJ 2A
Page 32 'McKenzie
K: Yeah?
M: And uh they had a goal they were trying' to reach and uh....
K: And do you think that goal was integration?
M: Yeah, definitely that's the main thing.
K: Yeah. You think they were...?
M: Gettin' into the schools and one thing 'n another.
K: U do you think they were communists?
M: Well, I--I had a picture at a eaaass meeting' which like you
say, that's newspaper and nobody knows whether to believe it or
not....
K: Heh yess but!
M: But uh eh uh Martin Luther King was there.
K: Uh huh.
M: But that don't mean nothing .
K: That doesn't mean he's a....
M: Uh uh a communist or not, yeah uh I wouldn't say that.
K: So, you don't think he was uh some sort of communist uh con-
spiracy uh fermenting ------- ?
M: Well, what good would it be to the communists?
K: Ahh, it's you know, it's some--a bit pst 'for me to understand
too but a lot of people, you know, thought--thought it was--40'
/irfr V^ rc.,.-., NIoticed *4u / -.
M: Well, it seemsilike he went to all kinda meetings' and things
you know, so uh, it was uh--so did I, so it wouldn't been _,_._
SJ 2A
Page 33 McKenzie
I would seen or seen my picture anywhere, you know....
K: Mm hm.
M: I've never been in a congress meeting' .z /, '": ,r
that I know of, heh heh heh heh heh
K: Heh heh heh heh heh. Well, uh how would you uh typify uh sheriff
Davis's uh uh attempts uh just the city in general's uh uh their
methods of uh trying to control the uh the demonstrations?
M: I think they done a wonderful job-the sheriff's department and
the city police and the mayor. And uh when they asked us not
to parade we just didn't do it. I mean we didn't go against the
law at all.
K: Uh huh. I'm still a little confused-you know, you said you would
work, you know, with the sheriff and with the city police....
if
M: telll, nowAwe thought there was goin'--,if they thought there was
goin' to be a big stink or a big problem up town....
K: Uh huh.
M: ...we'd go up there and stand around and see....
K: Yeah.
M: ...the night they did have a camerabreakin' and stuff up there
they were y(/ ,- ,, ,.*
K: Uh huh. That was --that was just one night when they uh...?
M: Just one night.
K: Uh huh. Were-did sheriff Davis make you into a special deputy?
SJ 2A
Page 34 McKenzie
M: I was already a deputy.
K: Yeah?
M: Yeah, and uh Simpson took it away from me.
K: Uh huh.
M: Me and one other guy.
K: I-1 believe uh sheriff Davis,h).ou know, kinda characterized
your uh his relationship to you he kinda uh terms of his
liaison officer and so you would uh kinda help him keep
you know, informed as to what was going' on...?
M: 1Aat was o. ,'.,i -.--what we knew and e done the same /w tI'
K: Yeah?
M: If he thought there was gonna be trouble we tried to head it off.
and jus"-like when they ordered them not to go into these places
and sit down and be on the floor?
K: Yeah?
M: We had--we had no part in thatuh strictly the sheriff's
department handled that.
K: Uh huh.
M: Uh now Zgwas a deputy once or twice I helped him at the jail, you
know, had a big crowd out there...I think around the same time
bout the same time they put Miss Peabody in jail.
K: She's quite a character, isn't she?
SJ 2A
Page 35 McKenzie
M: She was, &Iright.
K: Sheriff Davis was tellin' me that he's gotten a few letters sug-
gesting that he write uh Mrs. Peabody and uh suggest that she-
she uh help the blacks in Boston integrate their schools, heh heh
heh heh. A little-little turnabout there, I think.
M: Ehhh-rqaape toUr was the governor of-of Massachusetts....
K: Yeah. Well, so then you would say, you know, you-you working fairly
closely with this uh with the uh you know this kind official--
would you sayli most of the uh white people in uh St. Augustine.,,.
M: '. -
K: z/j ,__ pretty much thought the same way on this
S-( IL. 7-. ?
M: Yehb, siSe. ,
K: Pretty much solidarity, then, huh?
M: Yeah, it's uh well like I tell ya they didn't yield no ground
e g- >eA lot of money was spent for nothing .
K: Mm hmm. Ahh, I.also, you know, read where that uh were-the uh
people that gathered on the uh back in the uh old slave market
and stuff to uh uh counter the uh counter the marchers? I read
where a lot of your uh uh or some of your sons were involved in
that?
SJ 2A
Page 36 McKenzie
M: 85/1, /ny PG4/W ones, yeah .
K: Uh huh. Did-did so could you exert any influence over those
kind of happenings uh in an indirect way through your sons,
or...?
M: Ohh well, they(L listen to me.
K: Yeah
M: They'd listen to me.Uh and they'd have a--well, one of them was
/'dv' 6 when the ,A" boy was killed.
K: Oh, yeah?
M: A/- ,* ,-.
and one of the bullets lodge right behind the seat behind
him.
K: Mmmh.
M: But uh--yeah there was uh several of them into it.
K: And did--would they have any influence over the uh over the uh
other people that were uh gathered ro_?_-o ?
M: Well, not-not necessarily.
K: What kinda-what kind of things would you uh, you know, uh you
told me you said they would uh obey you-what kind of things
M: Well.-, like uh if I tell 'em don't go nigger town-stay
outta there. They wouldn't go.
SJ 2A
Page 37 McKenzie
K: Uh huh.
M: And uh we have no business down there unless we S__Q_ _-
there paradin', you know, and uh but then lot occasions we go
through nigger town to get to the hospital or which I'd go
down there when I was ready and I-I never had no problems. I
never had no rocks throwed at me afl no shooting' at me and nothing'
like that.
K: Mm hm. So you...
M: They did bust the windshield in my wife's car uh but that was
done right here in West Augustine.
K: What would you-what would you say you know, there's all these
different kinda police in uh--what was the difference in uh the
uh local, you know, the uh sheriff 's department, the city's
department, their efforts to-to uh maintain peace and uh order
and the uh state officers--the uh troopers?
M: We had-we had some of the finest state officers you ever seen
there.
K: Yeah?
M: And they were all tops.
K: They were?
M: Ahh, when they were searching' cars they searched white people's
cars just like they did the colored.
K: Mm hmm.
SJ 2A
Page 38 McKenzie
M: And uh....
K: What'd the uh....
M: They didn't like it, they didn't like goin' to the beach and
wadian' out there with their uniforms on and just so 3 or 4
could swim which it wasn' really right when another mile down
the beach they could swim free as they wanted to.on the same
beach.
K: Mm hm. Uh would the uh local-the local police do the same
things-search both uh both white and black cars?
M: I don't think / /7 4/ police did it....
K: They just search the blacks?
M: No, if they caught somebody add they searched me.
K: Yeah?
M: Uh before but uh uh all they found wa+a gun in the car
which I had permission to carry-well, I was a deputy anyhow
so I could carry it if I wanted to.
K: Mm hm.
M: But uh....
K: Why--why did Simpson take your deputyship away?
M: Well, I wasn't a bonded deputy--I was just a honor deputy.
We had it for the past ( /. //,// i,/ ___
K: Yeah?
SJ 2A
Page 39 McKenzie
.M: And uh and then uh one of the boys was a bonded deputy--just
that he didn't think we ought to be working' with the sheriff's
department.
K: So, he just ordered you off the uh....
M: Ordered the sheriff to release us.
K: Mm hm.
M: Which--we wasn't on no payroll, neither one of us.
K: Was --were there many uh members of the Ancient City Hunting
Club on his uh--
M: Deputies?
K: --with his deputies? Yeah.
M: Oh, I imagine there was several of them--I don't know how many.
K: Uh huh. Were they--were the special deputies,:ido you think,
pretty effective in the uh crowd control and things like that?
M: Ohh, uh his deputies was tops.
K: Uh huh.
M: His payroll deputies.
K: Yeah and I-I meant that, you know, special deputies and he had
a bunch of them--people that he just swore in for the crisis....
M: Welll..u.
K: ...and stuff.
M: Uhh he never done that 'n if he did, I didn' know nothing' about it.
.SJ 2A
Page 40 McKenzie
Uhh, most people jus went on their own, you know, like a
\ ^r-_ jus like the parade--people come from Ocala and
all around to be in the parade, jus....
K: Mm hm.
M: Jus 'n....
K: Wel-uh when the-when the whites did parade was it mostly uh out
of town while,/ ifi, whites and klansmen and stuff or was
it mostly people in town...?
M: There were aot of locals. We had a big parade and uh several
hundred people.
K: Uh huh, and uh were there-were there many klansmen in that
parade?
M: Well, I wouldn't know. They was some, yeah.
K: Uh huh.
M: I mean jes like I tell you before, the klansmen I met was
a fine people.
K: Yeah.Uhh you-do you think that the uh these white marches were
as uh effective as the blacks marches?
M: More effective.
K: More effective? Why do you say that?
M: Cause it--we--we stunned 'em-we beat 'em on their own ground,
they quit paradin'.
K: They quit paradin' after that?
SJ 2A
Page 41 McKenzie
M: Yeah, I mean they-they was just /-,-' /:*.,,' anything they
could do we could do it,too.
K: Uh huh. How-how did-how did the blacks....
M: We-we jus showed 'em -/ ,?J we wasn' scared to
.march in nigger town and we wasn' scared to go down /.-7,A
K: Mm hm.
M: Hey, bubba!
X: Hi!
M: Al/ l' a the other day. Wadn' a day didn' go by I
didn' get 25 or 30 letters during that time a day, you know.
K: Well, what were most of people writing ?
M: Well, some was good, some was bad, and, yuh know, I had several
thousand letters....
K: How did-how did the marchers uh how did the marchers react when
uh uh I know sometimes the black marchers, you know, were met
with some violence when they marched. When the white marchers
uh ....
M: They-they never met with violence but that one night they were
they had a curfew on it and-and they would just stop when they
-- that
got to a street, they were just-it wadn't--I don't thinkAthere
was anybody-even hurt. I --maybe a black eye or something' like
SJ 2A
Page 42 McKenzie
that, 'n they were already black to start withso....
K: How did-how did the marchers take-take to it when the uh, you
know, when the blacks, when y'all marched through a black town
and they held up signs like, you know, we love everybody and
saying' we love everybody?
M: Yeah, they-they didn' pay no attention to that-they was just
tryin'to get-getnother foot in the door, that's all. They-
they were well-schooled on it they--
K: What do you mean well-schooled?
M: Well, they knew what to do, you know....
K: Uh huh.
M: _// a4 _____ was doin' the teaching' n'-Mostly kids
you know, it was very few grown-ups....
K: Yeah.
M: Very few grown-ups, mostly / re/ ___
K: Yeah. Blacks?
M: Mostly kids. And photographers.
K: Mmm, kids and photographers, huh?
M: They tore up about a hundred cameras I'd
down
a like to had what the cameras cost they tore upAthere that night...
K: Who-who was doin' the tearin' up, the whites uh....?
M: Just anybody who got to one of them.
-SJ 2A
Page 43 McKenzie
K: Kind of a huh, a free for all on cameras, huh?!
M: Free for all. Did'didn' get on camera, heh heh heh.
K: Heh heh heh, not if they broke them all!
M: Just p/,2' / slImmed 'em on the ground, some of 'em they
took 'em and tape recorders they took....
K: And-and so you'd say,-you know, as afar as-as far as being,
you.know, planned organized uh resistance the-the whites
er your reaction would be uh would be uh limited to these
uh organizing these marches and using the two ways to- two
way radios to uh keep track of things and stuff -'. -.
M: To know what was going' on.
K: Uh huh. But despite the-but the uh, you know, counterdemonstrators
and the stuff gtht r^/ 7 .I* r _, spontaneous .
M: Yeah, they uh that was something' they jus wanted to go swimming'
on the beach and they wanted to uh.....
(END OF SIDE 1)
SJ 2A/Side 2
Page 44 McKenzie
the stuff
K: ....conversation, we were just talking aboutAdown at the beach-
M: Yeah.
K: Well, you know, we were talkin'about the way those cameras
were getting' broken and stuff, how would you-how would you
assess, ; S(y /x4 7> /5.-).1 r ,.'/c- r' "
(/ /.C
of Oe- uh_____ ?
.-...-.L....... "
a-bad-night, you know, in general or-or the
whole ?
M: They-they didn' getmany pictures that night they were some out-
siders standing' on the side getting' some though.
K: But I mean in terms of you know, reporting in, you know, the
papers and stuff? What-what was a goin' on-what--
M: Well, Our paper-our paper !n Jacksonville paper 'n Palatka paper
and around reported like it was.
K: Mm hm.
M: And uh Daytona 'n Miami-Herald 'n things they stretched it-out--
we had uh some reporters here by request 'n they would' take
nothing' unless they came down J T' 7/-'
was something' they didn' want printed they would' print it.
K: Well uh who-who was that--the uh--?
But it
M: CBS, uh NBC--I don't know which one it was. was either CBS or
NBC outtJacksonville 'n they come dressed-everybody knew who
they were ....
SJ 2A
Page 45 McKenzie
K: Uh huh.
M: And uh when we had the speakins in the park they'd take pictures--
They were authorized to take 'em and in fact they donated tuh
Ancient City Huntin' Club fifty dollars one time.
K: Oh, yeah? Did--did uh did any people ever uh any newsmen ever
give donations to the club uh in order to get interviews 'n stuff
with people?
M: Uhhh noo, uh other than that one time they give that to the
club k NO0 .
K: Uh huh
M: They were nice boys 5 c/ 7 k Jacksonville.
K: Yeah. So you-you would say that the local papers reported pretty-
pretty fairly but Uh Miami and Daytona--
M: Miami 'n Daytona was the worst and uh even uh some of your New
York papers not uh country papers they give us a, boy
they write us all kinda letters 'n tell us, don't give 'em
nothing .
K: Mm hm.
M: We give 'em everything they wanted for YEARS--'n look what
they're doin' up here. And why that? Y'know....'n all that
trouble they had in New Jersey, y'know....
K: So that er uh New York Times was pretty uh
M: Well, they were a ta, n7// r/.4
M:
SJ 2A
Page 46 McKenzie
K: They were okay?
M: They uh-they uh-I wish't I had my letters, we could see some
-A1
of 'em.but I don't have 'em where uh I cap put my hands on 'em.
K: No?
M: I've got 'em--kept 'em all but....
K: Would uh if-if you could uh locate 'em would you mind my uh
looking at 'em, I---
M: No. uh right now I've got uh a deal working' where a man wants
to take 'em all and write a book on it....
K: Uh huh.
M: ...and uh he offered me uh pretty good sum for 'em and I-
my son's oM%- my oldest son, which uh said, "Daddy just keep
'em for the grandchildren' if nothing' else".
K: Uh huh.
M: -_------_ _
K: Who-who is this fellow?From around here?Er...
M: isJ yeah.
K: No, I mean the guy that wants to buy the letters to write the
book.
M: Yeah, yeah. He's got a museum here in town....
K: Uh huh.
M: ... he's got Kennedy's car he got killed in 'n all...
SJ 2A
Page 47 McKenzie
K: Yeah, so...
M: But uh you'd be surprised at the ij,/I, / letters I got
from people--Miami, some of the people down in Miami there, I
mean nice letters I got....
K: Yeah? Whap would they usually uh say to encourage you on,or...?
M: Well, they were from up north mostly, Don't give 'em nothin'....
K: Yeahh.
M: ...y'know it's just uh-uh just look what they're doin' up
there 'n they-along that time they were there raisin' hell
up there.
K: Uh huh.
M: And their schools was already in-integrated and they were
still raisin' hell.
K: Yeahh,
M: And had been for years.
K: Well-when do you think the uh violence uh uh died down around
here?
M: After the uh constitution was passed.
K: After the uh bill?
M: Yeah.
K: Civil rights bill?
M: Yes, mm hm.
SJ 2A
Page 48 McKenzie
K: So you uh--
M: You ever read it?
K: I've never read the bill-I've read sections of it-I never
read the whole bill....
M: Well, I have-uL er my son's got it now, I had-I had one of the
first copies.
K: Uh huh
M: And there's nothing' in it givin' white people nothin'....
K: Uh huh.
M: ...and we jus resented it goin' to school with 'em-in fact,
they didn' go before that.
K: Yeah, I believe there was very little-very little integration
before that. But that was-that was the main reason it -it
died down, huh?
M: Well, I think so. Like I say, you can't fight the federal
government.
K: Mm hm.Wh-what about the uh, you know, like we were talking'
earlier 'bout Manson's on-on- -you know, I've read several
articles--after it was passed the whites put up pickets on
places that integrated.
M: But I don't think the Munson was one of 'em, yeah, they
picketed some-several of 'em.
K: Was-were you-were you involved in organizing those uh pickets?
M: Oh, no, that was-I think was strictly Klan.
SJ 2A
Page 49 McKenzie
K: That was strictly Klan huh?
M: Uh now I know they picketed a caravan
K: Yeah.
M: And uh I don't-I don't now I don't recall
'em ever picketin' the Myfnson-like I told ya lotta times I was
gone 'n uh cause we organized different clubs all over the
state, you know, so...
K: It wasn't uh clubs related?
M: /j -cII/ -e like the Ancient City HLuntin' Club....
K: Uh huh.
M: -
K: Wh-and this just a uh give a uh r.,.- man a place
to uh / v_____
M: Well, uh 'n no, now, 'n let 'em know what was going' on here,
you know, 'n uh just like Ft. Pierce--they had uh quite a lot
of trouble with'em down there y'know, 'n...which when they
once got organized down there they put a stop to it. So, the
easy way to-to beat 'em was just like-a nigger works for a white
man- /,. nrc lJ -len r,'-lc does 'n if
they-if they gonna show /4. /
people just laid 'em off.
K: Mm hm. There's-there's a lot of that around here-in that time?
*SJ 2A
Page 50 McKenzie
M: Ohh, lots of it. many amount of it. You had to beat a man
at his own game, you know...
K: Did the uh-after the uh troubled were over did they go back
to work for thecuh --- 9- ?
M: ?~-- Yeah, they went back. Some
of 'em did, some of :'em never went back, y'know....
LK Well, you know, given-given the importance of the uh
civil rights bill do-do you think that the uh wh-wh-what
effect-do you think the uh violence,you know, both the uh
the demonstrations and, you know, when people got beat up
and stuff it-it-do you think that had any-any uh bearing
on the uh bill getting passed-that uh that kind of--
M: Ohh no, no, I don't think so cause we never really had that
the
much effort here. They built up most of it-newscasters did
'n one thing 'n another--but we had very little fist fights
and knockdown dragouts....
K: So, you think there was a lot of difference between the uh
the way the uh news medi-the uh tv and radio would cover the
events and the way the newspaper covered the events?
M: Yeahh, ahh tv-uh this once outfit we had here they-they give
us a fair shake on it all the way around. Noww, I made several
SJ 2A
Page 51 McKenzie
recording for one in Miami 'n he said he jus wanted the truth)j
and he printed a nice piece...
K: Yeah.
down there
M: ....but he had to get another paper to do it. /mai /C./ i r, ,
K: Well, what paper? What paper did he-?
but
M: I-I don't recall off-off hand but it was-it was a Miami paper.
K: Uh huh.
M: And uhh uh I made one for Huntley-Brinkley 'n uh I was uk--I had
more time on Kuntley-Brinkley I imagine than the president of
the United States had....
K: Hah hah hah hah. What kind of stuff did they ask you whefyou-when
you got on--?
M: Just facts.
K: Yeah.
M: Y'know, and uh what was--I think it was uh more or less uh
K: Uh huh. So uh would you say overall the uhh the--
M: heta was uh bunch of uh lies most of it on the-on the news
side of it-- k/ /6 4ne of it was alright-printed right-
but--
K: Wh-what-what kind of--
SJ 2A
Page 52 McKenzie
M: Uh knockdowns 'n uh shooting's 'n the beatins 'n most of that
was &/c'/ -/L
K: Thta-that was not true?
M: Not true, cause they had one little iXr-ffi-- up in the
one
park one night 'n then they had this/rn King Street one
night--other than that-'n then the night be4re .o/ got
shot....
K: Mm hm.
M: And uh really wasn't--well, there was nobody hospitalized ,/'L
/ IA f r 7// when the boy got shot.
K: Was that uh was he a member of the uh Ancient City Huntin' Club?
M: Yessir.
K: And they had been out hunting?
M: Uhh they'd been huntin' all day that day and uh I think they
went _/ _r r//_-- I think --
K: Uh huh. I-I belive, you know, when he was shot his shotgun
discharged through the floor?
M: -f' .,:/ -/ the car.
K: Yeah-yeah, I know that the times I've gone huntin', you know, one
of the-you know, we-we always make it a point to make sure our
guns are unloaded in-while;uh you're driving' around in the car.
M: Well, they haul .L "-1 all the time-._ ...
in the back /i//,'/ ____ they load Lt.
K: Yeah?
M: What good is a empty gun?
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Page 53 McKenzie
K: Well-it's just, you know,--
M: /, / e "vye. you get out of car and load a -gun whatever you
were gonna shoot be gone.
K: Uh huh.
M: It's uh-it's just a matter-his gun was uh on the-on the uh
-.------_-- I don't know if it was layin' across this way
or how it was layin' uh uhh I went down there the next morning'
where the car was--they kept the car right there and uh they'd
had-did have a birdshot hole--it was birdshot /
K: Mm hnm. Uhh now said that you worked, you know, pretty-pretty
closely with sheriff Davis and you also in terms of organizing
the uh uh marches 'n stuff you worked pretty, you know, fairly
closely with uh Mr. Stoner...
M: Yeah.
K: ...and Mr. Lynch. Uh did Stoner and Lynch ever work much with
Sheriff Davis.
M: Uhh he was-he was friends of theirs....
K: Yeah
M: I mean uhh he knew 'em.
K: Uh huh.
M: See, wh-when they come into town there have a speaking they had
to have permits from the sheriff's department and the police department.
SJ 2A
Page 54 McKenzie
K: Uh huh.
M: They wouldn't have 'em without it.
K: Uh huh.
M: And they had several of 'em here uh I don't know how many
offhand, y'know, but....
K: Well, that's-that's really about all the questions I had prep-
ared. Is there any, you know, last-you know; summation you'd
like to say that most-, you know, the thing that really stands
out in your mind--
M: Well, we really --.- .. ^ --- ----(__
K: -about the whole thing?
M: --the thing that stands out in my mind about the whole thing
they-they fought 'n completely lost...
K: Uh huh.
M: ...uh that they uh come up here to do something' that they-
Huh? Uh that, you know, just like I said, you had ^L.__
his lawyer here with 'im 'n all 'n they had a white man by the
name of
bunch of niggers 'n they got -,r," i' over there and they
just-just didn't gain nothing .
K: Uh huh.
M: --------it's uh--the only one really hurt, I imagine,
SJ 2A
Page 55 McKenzie
was me having' to go to court so many times.
K: Yeahh.
M: But uhhhh 1ike-ssay I-I-I definitely didn' see where they gain-
ed anything. Other than they used St. Augustine t6 help get
this thing passed, y'know.
K: Yeahh, so you think that uh the march and stuff did have an
effect on the uh passage of ....
M: Well, uh I-I don't think so cause they never really marched
butqbout once or twice, three times maybe at the most and
./.' ler /%e, 7r .e effect?
K: Mm hmm.
M: Cause uh people-people go down there 'n stand around 'n watch
'em, y'know, and uh and if they tried to overdo it then they
got put back in their place ;oy o ,, /o,/e if they tried-
if they marched quietly .,./'e ,n ..'< '. /..
K: Did you know a fellow from Jacksonville named Robert Pitman?
/?
M: I know Gentry, yeah.
Yeah,
K: Gentry? bause I think you-you-he testif-er yeah it was his-his
testimony before the uh House on Unamerican Activities Com-
mittee that uh placed you as a grand officer of-of the klan down
here. That was-that was false or uh what?
M: Well, I never knew Gentry that good-
-SJ 2A
*Page 56 McKenzie
K: No?
M: --I just knew of him.
K: Uh huh.
M: Uhh though it was never proved for a fact that I was uh head of
uh it.
K: Uh huh. And you /c,/_ ?
M: Well, like I said, I went to some of the meetings 'n I wadn't-
fact, all of the meeting's had here I went to 'em.
K: Yeah.
M: Uh umm I-I don't know how you get in the klan even.
K: Uh huh.
M: How you go at getting' in it.
K: Uh huh, I see. Well, you know, uhh.
(END OF TAPE-SIDE 2)
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