Title: Interview with Leonard Rich (January 27, 1988)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00006596/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Leonard Rich (January 27, 1988)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: January 27, 1988
Spatial Coverage: 12071
Lee County (Fla.) -- History.
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00006596
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Lee County' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: LEE 45

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Full Text

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the University of Florida.

D--We are doing an interview with Leonard Rich in his office in North Miami Beach.

The data is January 27, 1988. The interviewer is David Dodrill.

Before we get into talking a little bit about Gulf American, tell me a little

bit about your background, as far as where you came from.

L--I was originally an advertising man. I come from New York. I answered an ad

on one occasion. I was between jobs, so I was looking. I met Jack Rosen and

Charlie Hepner in an interviewing room they had at the Algonquin on 42nd Street.

D--That's in New York?

L--Oh, that's a famous place. That's where Hayward Broon, Dorothy Parker, and

Franklin P. Adams and all his people had their famous lunch round table. I

didn't think much of it. I had to go to Washington to see somebody and they

suggested I drop in either going or coming. So I dropped in on the way back

and was interviewed by Bob Carroll, Charlie, and by Jack Rosen.

D--When was this?

L--1961, probably in February. In March of 61, I joined the Company at our

Baltimore headquarters. My title was Sales Promotion Manager, but basically

I was the man who had to motivate the salesmen, run the contests, do all the

training materials and stuff like that. Rather than being very much involved

in the external promotion and the external advertising. Most of the external

promotion was basically done in Florida, where we had permanent sites. The

big thing that we did from Baltimore at the time was we were running a home sit

operation. With all our brokers out in the field but a few "Oando's,"

owned and operated, company owned. You always have a pretty tough problem

in that kind of operation because in a home sit, a man is by himself, he's

operating his own, and the law of averages says that if he's a really super

salesman, he'll close one out of five, which means he gets four no's to every

one yes. After he closes his one out of five, maybe a third to fifty percent

of those, in the kind of deal we were doing, would cancel. Now, General

Development had shown a way, by selling at $10 down and $10 a month. We were

selling Cape Coral and we were high class. We were selling for $20 down and


$20 a month, as a minimum.

D--The high rent district.

L--Now, an important change occurred when one of our experiments...we had started

out experimenting with cocktail parties. Have you met Lester Morris?

D--No. I haven't.

L--Well, Lester was one of our chief swingers. Ex-carnie. He was travelling the

country making the morale visits better & soon, presumably training and soon,

though I don't think Lester was much of a trainer for a home sit operation.

When we tried the cocktail parties and we evaluated what it cost because we

did serve liquor and so or, Lester said, "For that money give them chicken

dinners." And we started the first dinner party program in the industry.

We quickly discovered that the party program was much more effective than the

home sit. There were several reasons for that. I don't know whether they

would be relevent to what you're interested in.

D--Yeah, sure.

L--One of the reasons, first of all, was that instead of each man having to make

the presentation, which meant that most of them were either mediocre or bad,

we had one person up front, either a professional like Lester or somebody we

had trained, usually the manager or somebody who was better, another man.

So that meant that to begin with the human element was superior. Secondly,

when our men pitched in the home, what they pitched was a slide program. Now

we could afford to really do a film and know that it could be used. So we did

some very good films.

D--How many people would be at a dinner party?

L--It might vary anywhere from unsuccessful was only seven or eight couples, to

as many as twenty or thirty, depending on the nature of the unit that was

doing it. And, of course, we attempted to control the size of a party in

relation to the number of salesmen that the branch office doing it had. We

could control that normally by the number of invitations we sent out. There

was another advantage to a party. In our home sit a man is alone. He has

nobody to help him. He has nobody to get his morale up. Nobody to catch him

when he falls on his face. But at a party, the manager could do all that. The

man was part of a group. If the guy didn't score that night the manager was

supervising and he could determine whether the guy just couldn't sell, or

whether in terms of the percentages, that it was just one of those nights for

the man. But that meant that against a turnover probably, maybe ninety percent

I imagine, every three or four months. We cut the turnover of men way down

because we could keep the good men, we could keep them from burning out, and

if we had men who were no good, we would get rid of them. I used to control

the recruitment program. I would give every office an advertising budget.

I would tell them how it had to be done. I'd put out a manual which really

went into great detail on how it should be done. If I saw an office run ads

every day of the week, I immediately told the manager to go in there was

something wrong. They were only supposed to be recruiting new men...trying

to replace the bottom men with better men. My instructions always were, run

Sunday, and if you want to run another day, run Monday, but spend your money

where it counted. If a man ran frequently, he was panicking. He had a

problem. I would always alert management that we had a panic problem that

something was wrong. Inevitably something was wrong.

D--How many...were the salesmen paid strictly from commissions?

L--In that operation it was draw against commission. We did not pay salaries.

L--And at a typical dinner party, how many salesmen would there be per unit?

L--Originally when we started, a salesman had two couples, which was not good

because he would tend to, in his own mind, qualify them. He would probably

concentrate on the one he thought was the best prospect, but he wasn't often

right. Let's say he wasn't always right. Not only that, he had to deal with

two different personalities as it were, and there was always the chance that if

one of the couples was negative they'd kill the other one. Ultimately we

organized the parties to the point where a man got one prospect at the party,


and he'd have to concentrate on them for good or for bad. That was more

effective. When we originally started they sent out an invitation that looked

like a wedding invitation. Charlie Hepner asked me if I could do something with

it. So I developed an invitation that we called "Conquistador". What I did...

this was around the time of the 400th anniversary of Florida settlement by


D--When was this what year?

L--Let me see, I'm trying to think...this must have occurred either late in 61 or

in 62, I'm not quite sure. I was a wiseguy. There was no real supervision at

that time by the Florida Department of Business Regulation. So what we did (I

should have brought a copy in)...there was a commemorative stamp on Florida's

400th anniversary. So we did an invitation which to begin with was illustrated

by something very close to the artwork the government had. Had the old picture

of Connie Mack and a letter from Connie says that a friend of yours

recommended you. But the whole thing looked pretty official. Today, I would

probably have had to modify it somewhat not entirely. It was a legitimate

deal. We were flat out stating what we were doing. But today the Department

of Business Regulation is much tougher that you make look like a government

sign. That about tripled our response. So we were able to send out fewer

invitations. Ultimately of course, all these things dwindled. When the whole

industry followed us, there were millions of invitations in the mail. We put

millions out each year. Ultimately, you skim the cream off and your mailings

become less and less productive. But up until the very end, my "conquistador" used

to do as a mailing)either outpulled or equal to pull of anything that was ever done.

It was really remarkable.

D--What kind of response would you get from a mailing like that?

L--When I first started I was getting four or five percent. At the very end it

went down. You did well, very well, to get one percent. That meant that

apart from thefactorof inflation that your cost of getting a prospective

(L(^ 5
buyer shot way up. So the party program really enabled us to jump, as I recall,

from about a thirty six million dollar volume in home sit to seventy or eighty

million the next year. I know we doubled it.

D--How many of these dinner parties would they have in a typical year?

L--In a month we might have fifty, sixty, or more.

D--Would they be all over the country?

L--All over the country. At the same time, now that we had some degree of stability,

I developed an awards program. Because in talking with Jack Rosen, Jack said,

"We gotta have some way of getting these guys down to Cape Coral. Most of them

have never seen the product. We have to have a basis." So I said, "All right.

We'll base it on volume and we'll have a series of awards when a guy hits, let's

say $250,000, he goes down to Cape Coral and we have an annual awards get

together. When he hits $500,000, let's say, he can take his wife. When he

hits, let's say, $750,000 or $1,000,000 (whatever it might be), in addition to

sending him down to Florida we'll give him a trip to the Carribean. The fact

that so many men won some of the awards was a reflection of the new stability

that we had found. In this kind of direct marketing, as I say, the turnover

is tremendous. We also, now that the party program was going, had a speaker

training program. Jack used to, originally he would hold out a plum...if you

do well, I'll let you speak. I used to look at him and laugh to myself because

other than Lester Morris, I felt I could do better than anybody there because

I happened to have a fairly decent background in public speaking. But I had

no desire to do it. By the way, one of the big advantages to a party was

called t.o.ing. T.o. is a takeover man. He's the guy who walks in when the

salesman is having trouble and attempts to close the deal for him. Usually

it's the manager. In a big operation as in Cape Coral itself where we would

have many more salesmen and many more people, there would just be t.o. men.

D--How did they do that?

L--The salesman will signal him and he'll make some comment that Mr. & Mrs. so

and so say, and he would state the objection. He would...the objection that


the man cannot overcome is not necessarily the real objection. So it's up to the

t.o. man to ferret it out and to attempt to close the deal. This was very

important because t.o.ing is normally part of any effective direct selling, but

the man in the home by himself couldn't have a t.o. So again, you see this is

one of the reasons we achieved comparative stability in the sales force. And

why we could turn the spicket on and up the sales. I ran all kinds of contests.

My contests were different from what they had run before. I didn't believe in

fancy printing. My view was that what would motivate the men were not stunts

and slogans, but what you wrote about them. I always looked at a contest as

though I were doing sports writing and describing the ballgame, or describing

a race in the olympics, that sort of thing. I would get a data processing run

and I would first do a piece on who had been the leaders that week. Then I would

do a second run on the accumulated totals. That meant that even if a guy was

not consistently good, if he just hit occasionally, I'd get his name in the

paper which motivates him. Now the problem with most sales forces is that

80% of the volume may be done by 20% of themen. In order to motivate...when

all our bigshot sales managers wanted to run a contest they...I remember down

at Cape Coral they gave away a Thunderbird, and they gave away all kinds of

big prizes. But only the top guys could win them. What I did was establish

plateaus. Depending on what plateau a man hit he could win a prize. The

higher the plateau the better the prize. Not only that, but my first plateau

would usually involve making maybe one sale. I would give away something

like a pen. But the pen would say "Gulf American Contest Winner". A guy

could show it to the people he was trying to sell, he could show it to his

friends and so on. The higher they went the better the prize. Then I would

usually have prizes for the top three to five men that would be big prizes.

So the big guys could really be recognized. Those contests were very effective.

They would always have a theme. One time it might be baseball. Another time

it might be football. Another time I might make them all knights, lords, and


ladies. That kind of thing. I could use my contest bulletin as a means of

education. I could always have some stuff in there on either product or sales

tactics and so on that would, maybe, help a man do a better job. As a matter of

fact, a couple of my contests led to an administrative change in the Company.

When you have men out all over the country, there's always the danger of

selling a piece of property twice by two different people. The way they always

sold started with the home sit program and continued with the party program

was what we called t.b.a. (to be allocated). Meaning if you give a person a

specific piece of property, they gave you a specific size and shape, and they

would then be notified as to the exact piece of property. The salesman in the

field couldn't tell them this. What this meant was that a whole lot of non-

standard property started to accumulate. One day, Eddie Bryant, who was an

administrator, called me and said, "We have a lot of stuff that's just sitting

because we can't allocate it. Do you have any way of moving it?" I said,

"Sure. Send me up a list of some of these allocations and a description.

We can move it." He sent me some stuff. I dubbed it all preferred property.

I gave extra contest points, because I always used the point system, for any

preferred property they moved. The preferred property moved out first. Why

did it move out first? A they would be motivated. B all of the sudden

they had a specific allocation they could describe. And finally those lunkheads

down in Miami suddenly realized that they should have an inventory program

and an allocation program so the people in the field could sell something real.

D--So they weren't just selling general description lots, they were selling a

specific piece of property.

L--Right. Instead of selling something that lets say was 120 x 85, and that's

what you're going to get, they could sell a specific size, a specific location.

Our great opening gambit when the man made his first trial close was, "What

would you like, waterfront or waterview?" Because in selling you always have

to give people choices and nail them down on the choice. Or a guy would ask


...on our survey sheet we would ask them how much a month they could handle

comfortably. Now when the man tried to zero in, if he knew they had indicated

that maybe they could handle a fairly substantial amount, he could go for

waterfront, knowing that they were financially able. So they realized this.

Low and behold we developed a whole inventory system down in Miami. What we then

did for the party program was we would give each office allocations on specific

property. They would have an allocation sheet and I developed a standard way

of doing an allocation sheet so that it would punch up every piece of property

as being good. That's what they would work from.

D--So the sheets would be updated?

L--Oh sure. At every party. What they would do if they had sold something is

cross out what they had sold. It's very powerful when you show a customer

an allocation sheet and say, "Here's what I think would be good for you,"

and the customer see's these things marked sold. In fact, even if nothing

was sold, my instructions always were to cross out some of the allocations

for that night and mark it sold. Because psychologically it was effective.

We had an even better thing at selling Arizona, but you're not interested in


D--I'd like to hear a little bit about that.

L--In Arizona, at Rio Rico, we got to Rio Rico. We had another problem. It was

not like Florida where you can sort of put an overlay down and get most of

your standard lots right out of it. In Arizona you have very mountainous

country. You can only sell a parcel if there was an area large enough for a

building site. That meant you would have to drive in on a dirt road onto a

building site. That meant there was no such thing as a standard parcel.

Everything was irregular. You might sell somebody a whole mountainside with

60,000 square feet. In other cases you might be selling something very small.

There were other complications. Your pricing in a place like Arizona

depended to some degree on whether you called it hillside, or skyline, or

sloping skyline, or valley and so on. At first, when they started to give


us the inventory from Arizona, I asked the guys out there, "How are we supposed

tok sell this? Everything is different. Haven't you fellows worked out a

classification?" Well they hadn't. Every price was different. Everything

was different. And that's a very caotic way to work. So my first personal

problem was I didn't really understand the nature of the inventory. But

knowing how to read a contour map, I finally figured out how to do it. Now

I had my classifications. The crest was skyline, right off the crest was

sloping skyline, and the hillside we had, I guess, a ten percent was hillside

and so on. Out there you were selling view also. So I took all their

inventory and broke it down by first of all size, then classification. Then I

grouped anything from 5 to 10,000 feet in one group of a particular classifica-

tion. I kept going up and did this with everything. We established a footage

price in each classification. Let's suppose I had hillside. Some parcels were

only about 5,000 feet. Some were 7,500 and so on. They now all had the same

price. Now a salesman could say, "You're going to get 3,000 extra feet if you

buy this lot." Now the salesman, who had never seen Arizona either, had to

understand what the nature of their inventory was. The classifications I

established were descriptive, so they could start to understand what they were

selling. Now the allocation sheet wasn't a simple listing of property with

some marked sold. Now they had two ways to work with it. Instead of just

waterfront to waterview, they could describe the different types of inventory,

and they always were able to give the customer an edge a bargain. The

allocation sheet became the chief sales tool that they had.

D--At a dinner party would they sell just one particular property in other words

Cape Coral or Rio Rico...


D--They wouldn't mix them up?

L--They would never mix them up. You would either have the Cape Coral team, or

the Golden Gate team, or a Rio Rico team (which was Arizona), and so on.


D--How did they determine who would be invited to these. Had the people made some


L--No. Although we did a lot of work in trying to compile lists and get leads,

that became less important when we went to the party program. We needed the

leads to give the men for home sits, but when we went into the party program

fundamentally we were mailing geographically. We were using the post-office's

as demographics. We would mail into zip codes and so on. People would answer

this thing and that's the way we got to them. So it didn't matter what

property an office was selling. We still used the same technique to get them

their prospects.

D--What other methods were used to sell the different properties like Cape Coral

or some of the others? You had the dinner party...

R--The dinner party was the basic technique we used out in the field. But for

example, we had a booth at the World's Fair and we got a lot of names there

and put them into our systems so that the people could be invited. The big,

really big variety of selling techniques were used in Florida. Since in

Florida, fundamentally, the properties were...in Florida we can do lots of

things. Now one example would be we would have people at various attractions.

Let's say Ocean World, Parrot Jungle and so on. Our o.p.c.'s meaning

outside public consultant...what happened was I had dubbed our salesmen,

consultants. So when they had people to try to get units in, they were outside

public consultants. And the whole industry called their salesmen consultants

and called their canvasers o.p.c.'s. We would get a great many locations and

people would get invitations to come to a hospitality room. What was a

hospitality room? It was the equivalent of a party. It was a place where we

constantly ran parties. To get people in we would offer some sort of premium.

Even here we get our people in right now at Golden Strand with premiums.

That was one technique. That was a method. Now the various techniques that

we used to lure the prospects were quite varied. There were locations. We

had welcome stations up in North Florida. We, I guess, tried a great variety

of premiums.

D--What were some of the different kinds of premiums?

L--It's hard to remember now. Some were dinners. Some were radios. Whatever you

could think of we tried. Jack Rosen used to say, "This is a laboratory. We

have to pay for the cost of research." He would really try anything. Once

we hit something that he thought was good, like the party program for instance,

then Jack would really concentrate on making it cost effective. He wouldn't

worry about cost when we started it, but once we said something works, he

would really hit it hard. A lot of things did work. For example, we tried

getting people to the movie theatre. They would see a movie. I remember we

had gotten some Ozech picture that won an academy award I think it was, something

about slow moving trains I don't remember the name of the film. But we found

that the theatre program was no good. We couldn't close people. We couldn't

really...they'd come to see the movie and that was that. There is such a thing

as having too good an offer. So people will come for whatever the offer is,

but they won't do anything else. We really started the whole certificate

business, the so called vacation certificate offering people up north three

days and two nights. We established a fly and buy program with Travel Guild

of America. We had our own fleet of airplanes about four airplanes that we

bought from American Airlines. They were fast but they were high cost. We

would bring people in from all over the country. It was especially effective,

of course, in the cold states especially, it worked.

D--Did they bring them into Miami or bring them into Ft. Myers...

L--We would bring them into Ft. Myers and into Cape Coral originally. We also did

some for Golden Gate. In that case we still flew into Ft. Myers and bussed them

over. It was very interesting. For example, we tried French Canada. We got

lots of French into the closing room, but we couldn't sell them. And the reason

we couldn't sell them was fairly simple. We didn't have French Canadian

closer to sell them. Here at Golden Strand 80% of our sales are French

Canadian. But we have a French Canadian line. So that was an example of an

"53 12

experiment that didn't work. It was a high cost program. Because first we

would run...we would send people invitations not really to a party, but to a

session at which they could take advantage of the offer. Therefore, instead of

sitting down at tables with the prospects, we didn't have to use sales rooms

as such. We could use the equivalent of an o.p.c. who would sign people up

for the flight. The flights were as cheap as $49.95, but they were usually

around $99.00. We lost money on them naturally.

D--So people would be invited to a little session to hear about this flight to

Florida and they'd get signed up for that. Then once they got down to Florida


L--That's where we tried to sell them. But we tried to let them know what they

were coming for. There again was the question of the invitation. I didn't do

the original invitation. They asked me to take a shot. Could I do another

conquistador? I knew I couldn't. But I did something we called "Flight Roll

call.""'Flight roll call"was an invitation that was a very professional direct

mail sell. It was no longer we were selling a product. What I did with flight

roll call was I really spelled out what they were coming for, and why we were

offering the flight the fact we were trying to sell them some land and so on.

I did outpull the others, but we got about twice as many people who once they

came agreed to take the flight, and a better sales closing rate because we

leveled with them in advance. But that was a piece that really went professional.

I had a little seal on the outside. I forget who we said was running this thing,

but it sounded very, very official. Conquistador I could still do, but flight

roll call would never pass the...

D--Did it sound like a government agency?

L--Yes. It wasn't that I lacked scruples, it was just that there were no

limitations placed on you in those days. Whatever you did, nobody disagreed

with as long as it wasn't outright chicaney. You could do almost anything.

D--Was that pretty typical of most of the land sales industry?

L--Let me put it this way. Everybody hired our men away because they wanted to

6- 13

learn how to do our programs. So whatever we did was typical of the land sales


D--So people like General Development and stuff like that would hire them...

L--Even though General Development proceeded us, once we got rolling they followed

us. They hired our men. They imitated everything we did. Everybody did that.


D--So you don't feel like there was much competition from the other companies and


L--Well I think General Development were pretty good competitors. But we outstripped

everybody in volume. It seems to me as I recall, that last year when we were

GAC Properties we must have done about $200,000,000 gross. That sales is not

a story but it still put us out way in front of anybody. We probably did as

much as the next four biggest companies combined. We had that effective a

machine cranking out.

D--Let me ask you a question. What percentage, roughly, of the property, whether

Cape Coral or Golden Gate or whatever, was sold off site either at a dinner

party or...

L--Well, Charlie Hepner would be a better man to answer that question than me. But

to my best recollection we must have done at least 70 to 80% off site. What

they did at the property was fundamentally they were dealing with all these

prospects who were brought in by the various programs we had going in Florida.
But they had a third function. They had what we called a home site owners line

which was a solidification line. In other words when we sold, we had a travel

allowance for people to come down on their own. Because a lot of people,

naturally, would drive down. Give them let's say a nickel a mile or

otherwise. They were handled by this special line of men whose job it was first

of all to make sure that the sale stuck in the books. Secondly, if possible, to

upgrade, meaning to sell them a more expensive piece of property to have them

trade what they had bought for a more expensive piece. Or third, to add on -

meaning that rather than just selling you a more expensive piece of property,

(S 14

to sell them at least another piece. We really had our best men in that line.

Those men make out like bandits. They...even though the standard was maybe one

percent, they were getting gilt-edged prospects in...getting people already

sold out in the field. This was a very important line. It was building the

book but holding your people. That was the name of the game.

D--Was that really stressed from up above?

L--Well, we established the line for that purpose. Another function was that we

always had a couple of guys that were working with that line well with both

lines now. with both new customers and the old, who were called Mr. Cash. Their

problem was to get a larger down payment. If possible, to get a full cash

payment. That was also very important not only for the cash flow, which is

always a problem in an operation like ours, but the more money you took the

more solid the sale. Remember originally it was $20 down and $20 a month. That's

not a very solid sale. As we learned more we kept increasing the minimum down

payments as well as monthly payments. Just as a side on this, the difference

between the men in the field and the men at the property, the first time I ran

an awards banquet) I ran it at Cape Coral while in later years we always ran

"them in Miami at big posh hotels and I'll never forget we had one guy from

'- St. Louis. I don't remember Nick's second name he was Greek American He's

down in Cape Coral. He's a good salesman. He's gotten the first award. I

had little globes with the slogan "A new world for a better tomorrow" translated

into Latin. I had very fancy awards. We take the men around on a tour...we

tour the customer and we tour our salesmen...and we come back and Nick says,

"Gee! I wasn't lying after all. It's all here." Which shows what kind of

guys we had. Think of it. Here's a man who though he was telling fairy tales.

And he's one of our top salesmen. That was the importance of the awards

program to get the people there. When we established Travel Guild of America

with the flight program, then it was easier to make sure the men knew what they

were doing. We would send men down on the plane to help handle the people on

the plane. They would get a chance to see the property they were selling.


But in these early days the awards program was very critical. Making sure

these men understood Cape Coral was a real place. You haven't been to Cape

Coral have you?

D--Yes. I lived there.

L--You lived at Cape? Do you know the history of that bridge?

D--Tell me about that.

L--I'll tell you about the bridge.

D--Before we get to the bridge let me askk you a couple of questions about sales

again. Didn't Gulf start a mortgage company and did they try to sell

mortgages to the people?

L--The original name of the company was Gulf Guarantee Land and Title Company.

It sounds very real estate...very conservative. We changed it to Gulf

American because when putting it into the stock exchange they wanted something

that sounded better. So first it was Gulf American Land Corporation then it

was Gulf American Corporation. No there was nothing of that sort. Maybe the

name made people think that. We did not give people a mortgage. We gave

them a contract for deed. Now a contract for deed is an installment sales

contract. You got a warranty deed when you had finally made all your payments.

I believe, I'm not sure, whether you can still operate with a contract for deed

even on land in Florida today. I know that for example, on timesharing we have

to give them immediate mortgage, which creates problems, because if people

then fail to make payments and they've gotten a mortgage, we have a big problem

getting the property back. If somebody stopped making payments, he'd forfeit

his money.

D--Maybe it was that they tried to sell mortgages to people who bought houses.

L--Oh, that's different. With houses it's always a mortgage. That's a different

story. But when you sold housing, people, remember, had the privilege of

getting the mortgage any place they wish. So I guess we had a mortgage company

but it was not an important factor.

D--The other thing about sales...who were some of the best sales people early

0o 16

on and throughout?

L--First let me tell you who the best broker were out in the field. There was an

outfit that had the state of Ohio C-o-m-e-t- M-a-r-k-s. It was headed by

a man named LouRosen, who was a very excellent businessman. I would say

Comet Marks must have done $20,000,000 or $30,000,000 a year. Then in

chicago we had a broker called Herman Harris. Herman didn't do quite as much

as Ohio, but he probably did $20,000,000. His salesmen were power houses. One

of his best men, I remember, was Marvin Marks. This is Herman Harris's man not

Comet Marks. On the property...I remember they once called me up and said we

wanted you to do a contest for the property (Kenny Schwartz called me). I

want one of your dynamic contests. I said, "Kenny, what's the matter with you?"

"You're on the property. you have a bulletin board. The guys know how well

they're doing. In addition to that you've got a contest going where a guy can

win a Thunderbird." "I know that but I want another contest." The problem

with the Thunderbird and all that was that when a guy made a sale, he got an

entry for a raffle as it were, and all these sales managers all loved raffles

because their thinking was flash, they wanted this big thing. But I don't

believe in flash as being primary. That's very superficial. I believe in

motivating the man to compete against himself. That was the purpose of the

plateau system. So I said, "Look Kenny. Do you realize that when your men

get my bulletin it'll be two weeks after they made the sale. That's when

he's out in the field and it won't be any different for him. "I want it."

So I did it. And Kenny was right. Late or not late, it moved his men. In

that first contest the two leaders were two guys named Marvin. One was

Marvin Popkin and the other was Marvin B-a-u-e-r. In my bulletins being

written after the fact, these guys knew how everyone stood. But out in the

field nobody knew until I got a bulletin out. I started talking about...

since they were the two leaders and they both were named Marvin, I said,

"Who will win the title of El Marvo?" And to this day, Marvin Popkin's

license plate reads "El Marvo." In fact, when I came down to the Cape

0o 17

for that first awards, Marvin said, "I want to see my p.r. man." I built

everybody up. There was never a negative. These guys had enough problems

without giving them anything negative. Who were some of the leaders? Well

Arnie Mann, who was our vice president of sales here, was one of our top men.

Arnie was a pretty good honest salesman I might add. Arnie is a very solid guy.

I'll say this. Arnie was like Willie Mays when he first came up to the Giants.

You probably don't remember. Willie Mays, I think, went for 24 when he first

came up. Arnie came up and...we had a sales supervisor named Jim Raskin. I

used to call Jim"the animal because I considered him that. he was uncouth,

ruthless. I must say one thing for Jim. He saw something in Arnie. Arnie

kept blanking and he though Arnie would be one of our best men. He would bring

Arnie home at the Cape and drill him and drill him. When Arnie finally broke

through his first sale he couldn't stop. I must give Jim credit. He saw

talent. He was patient. He developed the man, animal or not.

D--Who were the best sales people at some of the different sites like Golden Gate?

Or did you have any?

L--I'm trying to think. It's a pity that you haven't interviewed Sey Reis. Sy

was our personnel scout in Florida. He would remember what every man did.

There was a guy named Kingsley. I don't remember his first name. He was very

good. Especially with spanish speaking people because he had lived in Latin

America and he was very fluent in that language. It's very hard now. I wasn't

at the properties living with these guys. I only remember names of men who

were from my contest bulletins. Let's see. One of the men that was very good

was Manny S-t-a-m-i-t-o-l-e-s. I used to call him Stam the man. Something

like that. Everybody got a nickname. Bob Carroll would remember them better

than me. Bob was more into it. I mean Bob was in sales administration.

It's difficult for me to remember.

D--That's all right. We can...

L--Names are my great weakness and I've aged.

D--It's my great weakness and I haven't aged!


D--Were you over the sales people in international sales? In Europe...

L--Well, at one time no I had nothing to do with international at one time

Sey Reis was in charge of international.

D--So it was a separate...

L--We used a lot of our state side people to head it up. That, we really ran

as a separate division. In fact, Marvin Popkin was sent to Mexico. The big

problem was he spent too much money. Marvin was a wild man. But Sy Reese

was in charge of that division. I don't know where Sy is. He could tell you

about international and probably give you a long list of top salesmen. He would


D--Just to review, you were over all the sales people in the field to motivate

and supervise them?

L--Yes. And I also played some role in Florida with the properties. Because

they wanted it. Florida was like a separate empire. Therefore, I really

couldn't do anything for Florida unless they asked me to. If Kenny asked me to

do something, fine, I would do it. We controlled Florida only to this degree -

that Jack and Charlie controlled Florida and spent a lot of time their. But they

had to deal with Leonard. Florida was just dealt with separately. Eddie Pacelli

was a vice president. Eddie was really in charge of Florida directly.

Certainly he was in charge of Cape Coral originally. Usually Florida wanted

my stuff.

D--Who did you answer to? Who was above you?

L--I worked with Charlie Hepner. I answered to Charlie basically and Charlie

answered to Jack. You might say I was Charlie's right arm.

D--You were going to tell me a little about the Cape Coral Bridge.

L--Cape Coral Bridge. First I'll tell you a story that I heard from Kenny.

This will illustrate how smart the Rosens were. In the early days of the

Cape probably in 59 when they were planning it, Kenny and Leonard Rosen

were at the Cape with somebody from the county. They wanted to establish what

the standard for the roads would be. Kenny didn't like what he was hearing.


He wanted lower standards. He felt they were being much too demanding. Leonard

shut him up. Leonard hoped and waited. We'll do the roads their way. We want

better roads not inferior roads. For a pirate this is pretty good thinking.

Leonard's attitude was who knows how long it will take us to sell this place.

Looking down the future it's better to put the good roads in now than later.

Leonard and Jack gathered and decided they ought to have a bridge. Because to

get to Cape Coral, originally, you had to go miles (15 miles) to get around to

the Ft. Myers bridge. So they plotted, first of all, to get the government's

approval and support. But what Leonard did was he bought the rights of way

across the river in Ft. Myers right down to the connection with I guess U.S. 41.

When they finally approved the bridge, it involved our donating the right of

way, which they did. Again, it was farsighted. It was intelligent as hell. He

was willing to give something away to get something he knew would be of

incalculable value. That bridge was the key to Cape Coral's growth. They

were no slouches the Rosens.

D--Just aside from that, yesterday they began work on a parallel span to that


L--No kidding? I guess now with 55,000 and growing they need it.

D--They're working on a mid-point bridge too. Halfway between the Ft. Myers

bridge and the Cape Coral bridge.

L--The Rosens are really responsible for that. They understood the need. They

understood that if you want to get it quickly, you have to cut through and

settle some of the legal problems that the state would otherwise have -

mainly land acquisition. They gave the right of way on Cape Coral side and

they bought the right of way on the other side.

D--Did you know Jack Rosen pretty well?


D--Tell me a little about him. What kind of a man was he?

L--Jack was a man with very high ideals. He was troubled by the fact that he never


had a college education. But he was a man that read greatly and read good

stuff. Who was the guy that wrote Excellence the guy that founded Common

Cause? I can't remember his name. Anyway, when Excellence came out, Jack

gave that book to every one of his executives. We had some seminars on it.

He aspired to be a benefactor. He had great faith in what Cape Coral could

be. Even though I've indicated Leonard appreciated quality, Jack was much

more concerned with it than Leonard. The biggest problem in Jack's life was

that he could never compete with his older brother. Somehow Jack could always

beat everybody else but somehow Leonard could always break Jack down. It was

really sad. As far as I'm concerned, in essence Jack committed suicide in

his goddamn. frustration with Leonard. People commit suicide in different

ways. Jack did it by ignoring three heart attacks and so on. At the same time,

when it came to running the business,...let me backtrack. Jack was a man

who took pride in the fact that he could take all these aluminum siding men,

carnies like Lester, guys with criminal records he could take all this dirt

and turn it into gold. He could make these guys assets. He could use their

talents. This is a very difficult thing. The problem is control. How do

you control these people? He prided himself in the fact that he could really

exercise control. He could control the Lester Morriss, and the Harry Dempseys

and all these other guys.

D--How would he control them?

L--Don't ask me because if I knew how then I could control people.

D--Was it based his personality?

L--Dased on more than personality. He knew when to hit a guy, when to encourage

a guy, when to pull the reins, when to give the guy freedom, and he understood

that he had to have control in the organization as well in order to do this.

But he could have all these key people who nobody else could have possibly

built a company with Jack could do it. Leonard was different. Leonard

didn't give a damn for anybody. I remember once I brought maybe a couple

of hundred stockholders down on a special trip. Before we flew them over to


the Cape we came into Miami, brought them into the building, put them into

the art gallery, and Leonard in his inevitable fashion comes in in his tennis

shorts and tennis shoes. He was an arrogant guy. He loved to flout people.

That wasn't Jack. Leonard didn't give a damn what his swingers did. Leonard.

really had no scruples whatsoever. Jack had scruples. But still Jack did

what had to be done. Jack had a lot of imagination. He listened to people

who made suggestions in programs. And as I said, he was willing to spend a

lot of money to experiment. He had this attitude of this is a laboratory.

Both the Rosens seemed to be inspirational toward their men, but I think Jack

was a guy who inspired loyalty. Leonard gave a damn for nobody and everybody

knew it. Jack cared. People knew he cared. So people were very loyal to

Jack. I don't know how many people you have spoken to. I'm sure they all

had a lot of positive things to say about Jack. I don't know how many took

shots at Leonard, but if they were honest they would have. I would say that

to some degree sums up Jack. He was a man of real intellect. He wanted to

have a philosophy in his organization as well as for himself. He worked very

hard at trying to improve himself and his people. I was kind of an odd man

out in that organization. Not many of our people were college graduates.

d--Where did you go to college?

L--I went to Brooklyn. And not many people were as square as I was because I

refused to get involved in some of the stuff these guys did. Some of their

shenanigans. The only reason I guess I could supply for the organization was

that I could produce and people knew it. When they had a problem they thought

I could be involved with, they all wanted me involved. Jack believed,

very much, he understood the need for communication within an organization.

That was one of the big things he wanted me to do in terms of the whole field.

But even in Baltimore, we used to run a weekly meeting. We might have 45 guys

in there. They were all department heads. I used to run the meeting. The

problem that challenged me, of course, is how can I make sure that everybody


gets a chance to talk. At the same time we really have problems and maybe

had start some solutions. I had the advantage of having been in war department

Information Education Division, with an orientation branch. I had precisely

faced this problem in the army when we were first developing the troop discussion

program. In essence, Jack never knew that. I never told him that. When he

put me in charge of the thing because he thought I could do it, that's why I

could do it. I had had a comparable situation with a lot of experience.

And believe me, dealing with the brass is a lot tougher than guys in

civilian life. At every point Jack understood that information was the life

blood in an organization. Jack used to say, "I cannot command when he want

to do this and that..you cannot command only persuade." He understood what

his powers were and what his clout was. But he also understood what was the

essence of real leadership. You don't just tell people to do things. They

must believe. I don't know if Leonard understood that, I sort of doubt it.

But Jack understood it very well. It's one of the fundamentals of leadership.

You must persuade. You can't just say do this do that. You can't be a little

dictator because ultimately you'll foul out. I never knew Leonard as well as

Jack. My reactions to Leonard were minimal conversation. I should say

something about Golden Gate or Remuda Ranch. Golden Gate was an environmental

disaster. But it wasn't because we wanted to...although you want to be in

the history books? Mel was one of our best salesmen at the property. There

was a terrific data processing guy named Dave Isaacs. Dave's talent...Dave

could'nt write a program. But his talent was he understood the equipment to

begin with the IBM equipment they always had the latest and he understood

the business. When someone wrote a program or worked on the system, Dave

would always look ahead. He would always insist on them putting things in

that they hadn't dreamed of, which he knew would be necessary so that we

could extract the information we would need at some future time with different

programs. Dave was a genius at that. Good man. Back to Golden Gate.

The environmental disaster. We though we were doing great things for the state


of Florida when we were going to drive those canals and drain that property.

Now that the environmental movement...people don't realize that back in the

60's people didn't know very much. I didn't know very much and I was very much

attuned to that sort of thing. Today it's an environmental disaster. We

drained we did the job too well. We had a problem with Remuda Ranch.

I resigned from the Company bver Remuda. They decided to sell Remuda Ranch.

I went into Jack and said, "Jack, we're selling swamp land. It used to be that.

when my friends up in New York would ask me what I was doing, and I told them

selling Florida land they'd say, oh yes, selling land by the gallons, right?

and I set them straight. If anybody says that to me about Remuda Ranch, I

cannot contradict them. I don't want to be associated with it."

D--When did they start selling Remuda?

L--I can't remember the exact date probably late 60's. There were other

people who felt as I felt. Jack made a personal pledge. He said, "We'll

drain Remuda. It will be dry." Well, when the Company was sold to Haywood

Wells, GAC Properties, there was a $7,000,000 reserve in that financial

statement for the purpose of draining Remuda Ranch. Jack was a man who kept

his word. But again, little did we realize, that it would have been a dese-

cration to have done it. Well, the environmental people in Collier Country

took care of that. They blocked us from draining it. It wasn't that we

were malicious or put profit above all else. We thought we were doing good.

It was only in later years that we learned we weren't doing good on that score.

We thought we were showing a pretty good set of ethics. Actually we were,

except we were ruling them on the facts of the past so to speak.

D--What happened once you block and drain it? Was that before GAC took over?

L--Yes. When GAC took over we hadn't drained it yet. Now we got blocked -

when GAC took over. Now the problem became what to do about all that swamp

land we had sold to people, since it now could not be drained. You might

use it for various purposes, but you wouldn't build homes in it. So we

developed a program of exchange. We offered people property up in Poinciana,


which is near Disneyland, which is quite dry. We offered property in Golden

Gate. A lot of people wrote in and said you're trying to swindle me, I'm not

going to give you that land back. Again, we were trying to do the right thing.

Some people really got stung because they didn't believe us. It wasn't that

we were so pure, it just made sense to do this.

D--Originally, was the idea to sell the 'tracts at Remuda for homes o0r Wa c r-c-o


L--We were selling acreage. Unless you have a final end use of occupancy, you're

not selling anything. Now of course you realize that our men however weren't

selling that, they were selling money. They were selling leverage. I'm sure

you heard a lot about that. They were selling resale. Lester would do a pitch

up front where he'd show them their paper proft, so to speak, and he used the

word paper profits. Now, after a year I had not quite doubled in value. They

were tempting people with greed. When they showed Golden Gate for example,

their slogan was "Buy by the acre...sell by the lot". They would show the

customer how you could buy a five acre track and get twenty lots out of it.

You could make a huge profit.

D--So people would come in their and hear this speel and they maybe would even

know what the land looked like. They would just think down the road that

someday I'll be wealthy because I'll be able to resell this.

L--Yes. Because that's the way they were sold. Now let's take Remuda.

We would bring people into Remuda. We had a magnificent club there. They

couldn't go out into the swamp and see the actual land they were buying, but

they had all the glamour and glory of this wonderful place done in spanish

colonial. It was a terrific set up. They were being so greedy. They were

being so resell. They would get restless and say, "Well now if it's doubled

in value, and you've only put in $x then we can resell it. Think of the

profit. The quick profit you could make. All of the industry went that way.

It was selling investment.

L y L 25

D--So General Development did it? Did all the rest do it?

L--Everybody followed this show. None of them had scruples, believe me. There

are some scruples -in the land businessin that if you're selling swamp land,

or at least land that's ponded. At least you'd be frank with your customers

about what you're selling them. That's scruples. But you had a lot of people

in Florida that simply sold the swamp land and probably told people it was

high and dry. When the state finally started to come in in the federal

government, you had to do a property statement, saying these things. But the

Companies selling had to be conscious of the fact you had to try to be somewhere

near the truth. Your real problem with these salesmen was that salesmen would

tell any lies. I hate to think of how many salesmen there were who said to

people, "Look. If you don't like it the Company will take it back because

it's so valuable. It will be so valuable by that point the Company will take

it back." The Company wasn't going to take back anything. That was against

our policy. We never said we'd take anything back. If there was a lie that

could possibly be told to hood wink people, these salesmen would tell it. It

wasn't just the guys that would come from aluminum siding or that kind of thing,

they were all like that. When new men would come in these guys always chose

the easy way to sell. It takes a good man to sell and sell responsibly. We

did a lot of training. We made a lot of effort. We didn't want these problems

with people saying, "But the salesman told me you would take it back," and all

the other problems they created. There is one element of control that is almost

impossible to cope with.

D--Was the bugging of the rooms at Cape Coral an attempt to...

L--The purpose of bugging the sale rooms was not really, originally, to control

the salesmen, because the management at Cape Coral was not that concerned.

The reason they put the system in was the same reason why the automobile dealers

do it. They did it long before we did it. It was when the salesmen walked out

of the room to let the husband and wife talk to each other, we wanted to be

able to listen in so we knew what their doubts or problems were, so when t.o.


man walked back in he could go straight at the target. That was the fundamental

purpose. When the time arrived and the government started to crack down, we

knew that we had to try to alleviate the problem. To some degree you had to

listen to see whether they could and find out who were the most flagrant people,

and who were telling lies that we were not tolerate. The problem was that

there heart wasn't in it. They would rather throw it against the wall.

There weren't many guys like Arnie Mann who I think was a pretty honest guy.

You know it was in Excellence where the writer said that it is the leadership

of society who set the tone. And in any company, it's management that sets the

tone. Our property management, all our Florida management, were not at all

concerned with setting an ethical tone. That was part of my problem. It was

always a battle within this company between the swingers and the guys like me

who said, "You're going to far. This is not right. We don't want to live a

lie." Always a battle. They usually won.

D--Who were the top management? Was their a manager for each property?

L--Yes. For each property.

D--Kenny Schwartz was the manager of...

L--Kenny originally was the manager of Cape Coral. Then later it was Ed Pacelli.

As I remember, Eddie was in charge, at one time, of all the Florida property.

He had overall management also at Golden Gate and so on. Mel had named some

of the managers to it. But it's too low to go. I didn't really look at any

of my stuff to see...my bulletins...to see what names I used.

D--Tell me a little about River Ranch? What was the idea behind that whole


L--First of all, there had been a struggle between Jack and Leonard. Jack wanted

to build more Cape Corals. He wanted to build cities. Leonard argued, and he

was supported by Pacelli, that it's much easier to sell unimproved acreage.

It's cheaper and you can do greater volume. That's an example of when

Leonard overcame his kid brother. That's why we had Golden Gate. That's

why we did Remuda. We went to River Ranch and it was the same idea. We were

/i f27

going to sell acreage even though we had an area set aside to build homes.

If you couldn't tell a story about a community, you couldn't sell the acreage.

So Golden Gate Estates had to sell you Golden Gate. I don't know how many

people are living there now, but it's growing, I understand. It was always

a question of what theme we would use. At Cape Coral we didn't really have a

theme. Of course that was our first one and it was a city. And Golden Gate

was the second one and again, it wasn't necessary because it was primarily

acreage. But when we went to Remuda, for example, the theme was Spain was

spanish colonial. So we went to Remuda, that was up in cattle country.

Florida used to be the second largest cattle raising state in the country,

second only to Texas. Up to that point, Florida was where you had most of the


D--You're talking about River Ranch?


D--That's up in Polk county.

L--Yes. That whole area of central Florida used to be cattle country. I remember

when I was in the army I was stationed at Blanding for a while. We would take

out a truck convoy and we would have cattle blocking us on the road. So they

decided to do a western theme. So they called it River Ranch and they did it

western. That gave them the basis for how they would ... decor, we had stables

here for riding and that sort of thing. We stocked River Ranch. It was a

great hunting area and we even did some stocking with some animals. That was...

D--Again, River Ranch was not intended to be a city.

L--They weren't going to put any great effort into River Ranch. River Ranch is in

the middle of no where. At least Golden Gate was on the gulf. Remuda is

basically on the gulf. Cape Coral is on the gulf. Pointseanna is near

Disney World. Remuda is near nothing. The land was cheap. They primarily

sold acreage. They sold it with the same arguments and the same promises.

You had this western theme.

( 28

D--Tell me a little about the time period in 66 and 67 when the land sales board

was starting to get it more critical of...

L--Well, if Leonard hadn't been so arrogant, we'd probably had not have been hit.

But here's a point. The abuses of the land industry were now a nation wide

scandel. There had been many exposes. The State, in its own protection,

was being pushed to go after the worst of the people. With any regulatory

agency, federal or state, when they have a job to do they normally go after the

biggest guy. If they could control Gulf American and knock us on our ear,

they would be hitting a substantial part of the whole industry. Because like

I said we were bigger than the next four combined, including General Development.

So they went after us. Leonard thumbed his nose at them. He was arrogant as

hell. We were the prime target and of course he managed to antagonize them.

S Claude Kirk, who was the first Republican governor I think since Reconstruction.

Jack and Leonard were Democrats. Leonard had provided all sorts of help to

the Democratic candidates. We had this great bank of phones and they were able

to use it in the campaigns.

D--So they let the democratic candidates use the phone banks to help...

L--Sure. We put people on to do it. Not just volunteers. And Kirk, of course,

these guys really worked against him, he really wanted to get them. I think

it would have softened the blow if Leonard hadn't persistently more or less

laughed at them, thumbed his nose at them, wear a big chip on his should and

say, "I dare you to knock it off," and that sort of thing. Then the Rosens

did something I think was stupid. We never went to trial. But they took

a consent where they admitted guilt. Which was stupid because they didn't

have to. If it had been me I would have fought the thing out. Once you're

in a fight you fight. They were afraid of going to jail. Kirk and his

people were very frank about saying, "We're going to send these Jews to jail."

Charlie would have a better grasp on that story than I do. He was much more

involved. More knowledgeable about it. In spite of having to put it on our


property reports, we still outstripped everybody else in sales.

D--Do you feel like the investigation was more motivated by Kirk than...

L--I think the investigation to begin with was motivated by an intolerable

situation. So that objectively, there was a reason for an investigation,

good reason for it, and when there was a good reason for a thing, it is

ridiculous to impune motives even if motives are there. The job had to be done.

However, I would say that vigorous effort to prosecute as opposed from

investigate was very much involved with the relationship with Claude Kirk.

And that's that.

D--Were there any comments ever made about Elliot Mackel being on the board and

his role in that as possibly being...

L--I never heard of them. Yeah, come to think of it yes. There was a good deal

of cynicism on our end. Mackel was a Republican. Therefore he was put on the

board. He was the largest of our competitors. He certainly had no affection

for us. I'm sure that the course of events that Leonard had managed to personally

...I'm sure but I never witnessed it...I'm sure he managed to personally

antagonize Mackel. That would be typical of Leonard Rosen.

D--When did it become clear...even before that...how badly did the thirty day

suspension of sales and stuff effect...

L--Oh, it hurt us. I cannot quantify it. To begin with we lost thirty days. But

beyond that it demoralized people. We obviously lost personnel. We had to

put the information in red on our property report. It hurt us. It hurt us

considerably. No doubt about it.

D--Was it near that time that discussions started to come about about the

possibility of selling out?

L--Let me put it this way. When we moved our headquarters from Baltimore (our

marketing headquarters) to Miami, I knew damn well that that consolidation

was a move designed to pave the way to selling the Company.

D--When was that?

0o 30

L--We came down... let me think...I think we moved in 67. Because we sold the

Company in 68.

D--Was it before or after the suspension? Do you remember?

L--That I don't clearly recall. I don't know if it was before or after. But I

knew damn well that this was a preliminary to the sale. I said to Jack, "I

won't come unless you make me an officer of the Company." If you're going to

sell this goddamn company, and don't tell me your not, I want whoever takes

over to know that I count for something. I don't want to be just the promotion

director. I want to be an officer.

D--So what did they make you?

L--They made me assistant vice president. I later became first vice president of

GAC Properties. It was important they did that. Very important. When GAC

took over, they thought that I was an officer. Charlie could say, "Look,

Leonard's an important guy. We need him." Well if he's that good well he's

an officer. If I wasn't an officer there would have been problems.

D--So how long did you stay with GAC?

L--GAC took over in 68. I believe it was May 30 or 31 of 1971 that we had black

Friday. They fired Charlie, Marty Rolnick me, Lester, Vic (the head of our

phones), Bill Baron (who was our movie producer), there were seven of us in all.

All key people.

D--How do you spell Marty...


D--And Bill...

L--B-a-r-o-n. His real name was some long greek name but he went by Bill Baron.

I can't remember Vic's name. By the way, the phone room was really the most

unprincipled part of the whole company. It did a lot of business.

D--What would they do?

L--A phone man, if you think that a direct salesman would tell lies, he doesn't

have the imagination of a phone man. We had a boiler room operation. They get

people who are willing to tell any lie or any untruth. That was just as true


in our firm too. They were totally unprincipled people. But that's the nature

of that beast.

D--Did the phone room operate throughout pretty much the history of the corporation

and into GAC?

L--I don't know when Jack actually started a major phone room operation, but I

would say pretty much through because the Rosens believed in the phone as a

method of getting sales. As the mail became less effective and more expensive,

the phone became more cost effective by comparison. Even today, one reason

why, I don't know what your phone is like but I get calls all the time, and

the reason they're doing it is because it's less expensive today to use the

phone than to use the mails.

D--So in the phone room they would actually make the sales over the phone? And

what would they do, send a contract out to the people and they'd sign it and

send it back?

L--Yes. They would have an elaborate contract package with all kinds of literature

and what not in it. Then of course, people would have a fly and buy

or drive and buy agreement, and when they came down it had to be solidified.

D--Was there a pretty high cancellation rate?

L--Yes. The phone room had the highest cancellation rate in the Company.

D--Any idea what it was near?

L--No. Even at that, they were profitable. The Rosens built a book, book

being your customers who made payments. We were always in a negative cash

flow situation. The moment the book caught up, we suddenly could break even.

They would go out and do some kind of expansion to put us back in the negative

cash flow position. Leonard was a financial man. He had a deal at the bank

to finance this. Truth in Lending was a problem for us, originally. It was

such a revolution in what you had to put in the contract.

D--So Leonard would use that book, in other words, to borrow again?

L--Sure. At all times. Leonard could not stand getting into a positive cash

f 32

flow position.

D--Why was that? Any ideas?

L--I don't know. They believed in expansion. They believed you always have to

grow and you grow by spending the money. You don't put it in the bank, you

spend it to get more sales. By the way Jack...do they still have the Cape

Coral Gardens?

D--No. That was destroyed and they're building houses over there now.

L--That was Jack's idea and he was the guy who wanted all the sculpture. And

it was some pretty good stuff that he brought there, and so on. Jack was a

very creative guy. I wanted him to do bible gardens. Yes. I felt it would

be a lot more colorful. But I guess it would have narrowed the appeal. Then

we had waltzing waters. Do they still have that?

D--It has been moved twice, but it's indoors now over on 41.

L--We used to do that show. I used to name all that stuff.

D--Who was responsible in the corporation for purchasing additional land and stuff

like that. Was that all Leonard?

L--Basically that was Leonard. But I don't know what role Jack played in that.

Leonard was the guy who really, I think, initiated the process. He was

responsible for our going into Florida. You know he came down here for his

health. He immediately decided to get in the business with a real swindler.

What the hell was his name...

D--Are you talking about Milt Mendelsohn?

L--Yes. Milt Mendelsohn. Milt went to jail later for his own projects. Leonard

was too smart to do what Milt did.

D--Did you know Milt at all?


D--What was he like?

L--Street fighter. Smart guy. Life master in bridge should have known better.

But Milt had no scruples.

i JL 33

D--Who do you think, besides Jack and Leonard, was the most important people

in the organization? That helped make it successful?


D--Why is that?

L--Well first of all he is one of the few guys that could work with Jack. He

would sit there for six or eight hours a day if necessary, and not go crazy.

Charlie also has an advertising background. Charlie is a very good organizer.

Very creative. He understands the need to solidify your operations, to give

it some substance as it were. Charlie and I used to work, for example, on the

commission programs together. Commission programs the way they're

structured is very critical because you've got to structure it in such a way

that you motivate the men to do the right thing. And also so that you could

protect yourself against these swingers. Charlie really got into every phase

of the operation. Every property. I would say that next to the Rosens

themselves, Charlie was the man that was most important in doing it. Now

a lot of the swingers were important. This was a very dynamic organization.

I remember that GAC marveled and couldn't understand how we could be so

dynamic and have developed the loyalties and so on. Lester Morris was very

important. Even Ron Nitzberg was important.

D--What did he do?

L--Ron was basically in the national program working with everybody. The officers,

brokers, and so on. But Charlie was the back stop. Charlie was a solid guy

who could understand all these crazy things, and could tie them together

pretty well. When Jack died, somebody had to do the job. Charlie was the

guy that would do the job. And whom everybody respected. He worked very hard.

Still does. I don't know what other people I would say were really critical

in the success. We had a lot of people on intermediate management levels who

did a very good job. For example, Tony Perecci handled the mailing room.

I had mentioned Dave Isaacs, who was so excellent in data processing. But on

the very top it was Jack, Leonard, and in my opinion, Charlie. Milt


Mendelsohn was a very key man in the early days. Because he showed Leonard

how to do it. How to put it together.

D--How important were some of the people like Connie Mack and Bill Stern as far

as giving the whole sales operation a legitimacy?

L--It was very important. They were front men. Connie today won't even talk

about...oh you talked to him. He's ashamed. He has nothing to be ashamed of.

He lives in Cape Coral still doesn't he?

D--Ft. Myers.

L--Well anyway, there's Cape Coral a monument to the really positive feelings.

He was associated only with Cape Coral. I don't think he has any reason to be

ashamed. But, you know, Bill Stern was a spokesman a good one. But that was

their importance. To give us a front of celebrity, really. It's not just

respectability. You can get all sorts of people for respectability, but

afterall, Bill Sterns name and Connie Mack's name were famous. Not that

Connie did anything to merit, but his father did. So Connie Mack was famous.

And Bill Stern, everybody knew. Celebrity is very important. Connie Mack was

not a bank president. People believe in celebrities.

D--Which of the operations in the Corporation were done in Baltimore, and which

ones were done in Miami?

L--What do you mean by operations?

D--As far as marketing?

L--Marketing was done...well here's the point. First of all I said Florida was

an empire unto itself. So everything directly effecting the properties in

Florida and in the o.p.c. operations and all that kind of thing, was done in

Florida. However, Jack and Charlie controlled it. They were down there all the

time. But that meant that Leonard had a much bigger hand in what happened

in Florida than nationally, in which he had no influence at all. Nationally

it was all Jack in charge.

D--Were there any operations that were just strictly in Baltimore, like advertising

or anything like that? Or was it all scattered.

L--Unless it was something that had to be done for local purposes in Florida,

everything with respect to marketing was centered in Baltimore with Jack.

D--When they hired new people, was that all done out of the Baltimore office?

L--No. They hired in Florida. It depended on what you were hiring for and where.

Jack was always a great talent scout. I remember when he was training some

executives, trying to influence them along with this Excellence thing. He

brought in guys from the State Department to talk to us. They weren't much.

They really didn't understand what we were doing.

D--Was there a particular inner circle of people, that when they were making

big decisions, that the Rosens would call to Baltimore or call to Miami and

get folks together?

L--Well, I'm sure that Eddie Pacelli played an important role. It was the two

Rosens, Jack, Ed Pacelli, Milt Mendelsohn when he was with us (before he went

on his own). But who else would have had that regular a key influence, I'm

not certain. Those five people certainly. Because Pacelli was very

influential. Very important to them.

D--How important was Tom Weber?

L--Well, Tom was the man who had to build everything. He was out chief engineer.

So to the degree that a chief engineer is in engineering is important, Tom

was very important.

D--Was he just an employee or was he...were the Rosens ...

L--The Rosens had great respect for Tom. He was an employee just as Hepner and

Pacelli. But they had great respect for Tom's knowledge and his ability.

If good things were done at Cape Coral, Tom did them. The Rosens may have

let him do them, but Tom did them.

D--What was the motivation for Gulf buying other companies like Guild Life

Insurance and Congress Inn?

L--First of all they thought they could make a profit. Secondly, they wanted

to sell the Company. They wanted to have a package. A diversified package.

L L(f1 36
By the way, Congress Inn did all right with the Rosens. The insurance company

brought a profit to GAC when they took us over. They did very well with out

insurance company. We had standing and the rights to do business in most of

the states. It was a valuable property. But when they wanted to sell it, they

wanted this package. I had even forgotten about them.

D--There was a lot of newspaper coverage on their attempt to purchase a company

called Finestra.

L--Oh yeah. I remember the story. That was part of this desire to put this

package together for Wall Street. As I recall, they used Smith Barney when they

were first trying to sell the Company. I'm not sure now. I think it was

Smith Barney though.

D--Who was the Paul Venze Agency?

L--Paul is a first cousin. Paul's agency was really a house advertising agency.

Paul's group really did most of the work. When I did that conquistador

invitation, I used Paul's people to get it done. I didn't have any artists.

I did need the copyrighters. But I had to work with his people to produce

them. Paul, therefore in essence, was purchasing, printing, and what not.

But it was a house advertising agency. Paul was a very nice guy.

D--You talked a lot about mailouts and telephone calls to contact people. Was

there ever very much advertising done over the radio or t.v.

L--Yes. In the early days when we were home sit, we had to have specific names

given to our salesmen all over the country. We did heavy response advertising.

Mainly it was print. But the Rosens were pros in t.v. Guys like Lester Morris

and Harry Dempsey had done t.v. stuff. But we never found t.v. in those days,

as cost effective as print advertisement. Radio? They're experts at radio

too. They do that long pitch. Jack experimented, but it didn't work for

land the way it worked for lanolin.

D--Who was Rader Associates in Miami?

L--Rader Associates...I think they were architects.


D--Who was Bernice Freiberg. Tell me a little bit about her.

L--Bernice was a Baltimore woman who, again, had been with Jack and Leonard at

the original enterprise and came over. She...her mission really was to get

leads in every possible way. I think Bernice was very open to ideas. She

was highly motivated. The only woman who had a high position in the organization.

Not very well liked, probably because she was a woman who had a lot of

authority and could push as hard as any of the men.

D--She was in advertising?

L--Her job was lead procurement. That meant that she could use advertising, or

any possible technique we might have or think of to try to get leads.

D--So she had a lot of latitude as far as what she could do.

L--Oh yes. Of course, she was in constant touch with Jack. But yes she had lots

of latitude. She was a very hard worker. Very pathetic.

D--What do you mean?

L--Well I don't think that Bernice got very much out of life. It wasn't that

she was a career woman, I just don't think that Bernice...I think Bernice

had a very narrow circumscribe sort of existence. She made a lot of money.

She did very well in that material sense. I often ask myself, what are these

things worth. I wish I'd have made more money. I'd have been a little more

greedy. But still we live comfortably. I wish I made a couple of million

dollars and I could travel freely, but what the hell.

D--Something totally unrelated. Was there evidence of anti-semitism against

the Rosens and against Gulf American because of the Rosens that you ever saw

or heard about?

L--At this date I couldn't be specific. But my answer would be yes. Especially

with regard to Kirk and his staff. Did you see the Leo Frank program this



L--Oh you didn't? The Murder of Mary Phagan?

D--Oh yes.

Z- 38

L--We were still in the south. I know the south fairly well. I used to run a

factory in southwest Georgia. One of my various

D--Some people that I've talked to in Cape Coral that have lived there wonder why

there's no blacks in Cape Coral. Was there efforts. Did salesmen just go off

on their own and prevent blacks from...or discourage them from buying land


L--Let's put it this way. They didn't encourage them. Your black market is

small enough as it is in relation to their finance and capabilities. But they

were very aware that people who were going to retire in Florida, as a whole

(being American) would be prejudice against blacks and didn't want to ruin

the neighborhood. We used to call blacks double x's. We never talked about

blacks. Double x's. And the salesmen simply didn't encourage them. I'm

sure that today, there would be a different attitude because the country has

changed. But rather this, the Voting Rights Act wasn't passed until Lyndon

Johnson succeeded Kennedy. And the Voting Rights Act, which the Kennedy's

understood very well by the way, is responsible for tremendous changes in the

whole political climate in the south. With the change in political climate

goes a greater tolerance. It didn't exist then.

D--Tell me a little about...I understand that Leonard and Jack did a lot of

charitable giving and stuff like that.

L--Well, they were orthodox Jews. They always supported, basically, the parochial

schools. Both in Baltimore and here. And yes they gave a lot of money. They

didn't have to be pressured. They helped to raise a lot of money. I often

wonder why a guy like Leonard would have been such a big supporter of Jewish

education, because I never felt that he really gave a damn about the ethical

lessons and precepts of the Talmud But they had great reverence for the

Torah (which are the Pentateuch The first five or six books). They had

great reverence for Jewish education. And they worked very hard, actually

at trying to be helpful. Both of them. I guess they liked being big shots

in the Jewish community.

3 39
D--I understand Leonard gave quite a bit towards the State of Isreal.

L--Oh they both did. They were very convinced they felt...I remember when I

first met Jack in the interview. he must'have spent two hours with me when I

was in his office I said to Jack, "Look Jack, don't try to sell me this stuff

about the Torah and stuff. I'm a non-practicing Jew myself. I'm a nationalistic

non-practicing Jew. In fact, Jack, if you want the damned truth, I'm an

atheist. But it doesn't matter to me. I'm not ashamed of being Jewish. I'm

not trying to walk away from my heritage or my background. I just don't believe

like you do." I remember Charlie told me that when it was all over Jack had

said this guy could either the biggest bust we ever had or one of the best

guys we ever acquired. Because no matter what he threw at me) .remember his

methods of control also involved attacking people) I just 'threw- back.

D--I understand that the Rosens collected a huge art collection.


D--Tell me a little about that.

L--I forget the name now of the guy they used to acquire the art. He had a

gallery in Palm Beach. I don't remember his name anymore. Anyway, they

gave him a lot of money to go out and buy Latin-American art. They went

very heavy on Mexican art. They had Sequero's, Rivera, Arusko, really the

very best. What they did was they converted that second floor I was not on

the second floor. My office was on the sixth; into an art gallery where

they hung all this stuff. I imagine they got a very good tax break as a

result. That's where I brought the stockholders in with Leonard.

Very impressive. And I must say that the art was good. It was good stuff.

There was no crapping around. They really acquired the best of Latin-

American art. When they sold the Company, they kept the art work. That was

not part of the deal. In other words when they made the deal, the deal was

they kept the art. Because Leonard knew that whatever he'd paid for it, he

would probably get double, triple, or quadruple the value when he came to

L y 40

sell it. If he decided to sell it. What he did with it when he sold it, I

don't know. But Leonard being a very canny guy, I'm sure he got top dollar.,

The only decent artwork I ever saw in the city of Miami. Not the city, in Dade

County. Bass Museum was crapy' All copies. I don't think there ever was

a gallery that equalled the Rosen's collection in this town. They had taste.

D--Jim Layden.

L--Jim 'Layden I'd forgot him.

D--What did he do?

L--Jim was with the property. He was a sales manager. I'm not sure what Jim

did. But he was at the property. He was originally at Cape Coral.

D--There's another guy. Bob Granger.

L--Bob Granger. I'm trying to think. I thought he was in sales.

D--No. From what I understand he helped as a contact man for the Rosens with

different sources of financing and stuff.

L--I didn't know him well. The name rings a bell, but I don't remember. Now

there'sanother guy who became a political lobbyist. I can't remember his

name. He's dead now. He wrote a book about buying condominiums in Florida.

He was a real swinger too, this guy. I always wondered how he could be an

effective lobbyist up in Tallahassee. Charlie would know.

D--I'm running out of questions. Is there anything else you can think of that

might help to tell a little bit more about the Corporation?

L--Sure. When we were taken over by GAC Properties, Hayward Wills wanted us

to increase our volume by 20% a year, and at the same time, clean up the

operation. When he found out that you couldn't do $200,000,000 a year, and

clean up the operation, that's when he fired us. He had some illusions about

going into politics. We got fired at the end of May. We were doing about

$20,000,000 or $25,000,000 net a month. And by the following November,

less than six months I guess, they were down to $6,000,000. And as you know,

ultimately, they went broke. He was a goddamn idiot. He inherited money.

He had managed to get some people around him. But he wanted to have his cake


and eat it too. That's what lead to the ultimate downfall of the Company.

We were doing our job. At that point, I was in charge of advertising as well

as promotion. I had a very hard working group of people working with me.

Hayward expected too much. If he wanted us to clean up the operation, we

couldn't keep going up to 20% a year. And if he wanted 20% a year, we couldn't

really clean up the operation. You can't do it overnight. So Hayward, really,

was responsible for the ruination of the Company and its going bankrupt.

D--Do you think he just really didn't understand the sales business?

L--He wasn't very smart. Charlie worked his ass off when he became president

of GAC Properties. He worked hard. And he did a pretty good job too. He

was making some progress. But Hayward wanted it all overnight. He wanted

everything overnight. Not much you can do. Hayward brought in some pretty

good people. We had a very good chief financial officer, Jack Jones. Jack

was excellent. I can't remember the name of the guy who was chief engineer,

but he was fair. I learned how to do critical path method in planning a new

product, during that period, because that's what we did at Poinciana-

D--Pointseanna came during the GAC period?

L--Yes. The Rosens had planned for it, but it came during the GAC period.

Poinciana Park. Of course you can't grow pointseannas up there but I

didn't know that when I named it. After we named it somebody told me this

and I said, "Why didn't you tell me before!"

D--So you named Pointseanna?

L--I named everything, usually.

D--You named Remuda?

L--No. I didn't name Remuda, Golden Gate, or Cape Coral. The Rosens had a

superstition about having the two letters being the same. But most things

like Waltzing Waters and the gardens and Pointseanna, and all kinds of things

usually came to me to suggest names. I didn't name it because people had

to choose the name, but they chose a name from what I proposed.

7 ( I 42

D--Anything else you can think of or would like to add.

L--Well I'm thinking of the GAC Properties period. Hayward got us into a stupid

thing on Eleuthra. Couldn't possibly have been successful. It was

a bad location in the Bahamas. But he was impressing Juan Tripp. Do you know

who Juan Tripp is? He was the president of the old Pan Am. When Pan Am was

still a great power. So Hayward wanted to impress Juan Tripp. I didn't think

Juan Tripp had an interest, but we committed all kinds of talent and money to this

report on Eluthra which went no where. Notenough water. All kinds of

things wrong. On Truth in Lending we really showed our industry how to do it.

Do you know anything about Truth in Lending? Truth in Lending is the federal
law which requires that you make financial disclosure when you sell something.

D--When was that passed?

L--I think Truth in Lending must have come in maybe in 69. We had a big problem.

First of all we had to supply our men with a lot of information that we had

never given the customer before. We had to redesign our contracts to

accommodate it. We had to comply with a law that nobody knew anything about.

We had some big battles with the Federal Reserve, who had overall supervision,

because we gave a discount and they wanted that to be part of the finance

charge, which would have been ridiculous. Finally a compromise was worked

out where we didn't discount anything, but we were allowed to charge a

different interest rate on the basis of different down payments. In other

words, for 10 down let's say you paid 18%, for 15 down 15, 20 down you got

down to 12. That sort of thing. Then the problem arose as to how to present

this thing. How to do various conversions at different interest rates, and

resales and what not. For some reason I got stuck with it. We had to put

something out that the salesmen had to use. Accounting washed their hands of

it. They gave it to me to work this thing out. So I went to data processing,

and at this point David Isaacs was not in charge, he was working in finance

with Jack Jones, and they had some guy that GAC had brought down from Allentown.


And I go to the guy because I want help. I want to get these figures. Well

I got great help. One day at 5:00 he walks in and he introduces an outside

resource. This guy is going to do programming. The next thing I discover is

that he has his programmer--is a guy who works for the county and is moonlighting.

The next thing I discover is that the programmer knows nothing about

amortization. The next thing I discover is he doesn't know how to figure

amortization. I called the guys up in Allentown since they had run a consumer

borrowing thing and knew all about it. They gave me some help. Then I bought

a book from a financial publishing company which gave the level of payments

for certain interest rates. I had to teach this damned programmer how to do

amortization. Now I'm not bad at math, but had never done amortization. I

didn't know what to show the customer. But working with the book I could figure

some shortcuts for it. Like 1:00 at night this guy would call me at home with

these problems, because he was moonlighting. Well, we finally got the thing

done. I had to do a special book for the international program. A book for

the property which might have different terms from outside. But miracle of

miracles. When the deadline came for the law to go into effect, we had new

contracts, which I had designed. We had the books with all the financial

disclosure information a guy could get for almost any price for which we'd

sell. I gave him instructions on how to interpolate. and there was very little

interpolation necessary. I didn't want our salesmen interpolating. I

wanted them to just write down what we had in the book. It was a great

crisis. A lot of people didn't comply until after we complied and they could

see how we had done it. There were other people who complied on time,

General Development was one of them. But basically people would look to see

what Gulf, GAC Properties had done.

D--Somebody mentioned to me one time/ I don't think they necessarily had any

basis for it but I though I'd ask you, that the Rosens or Gulf would go out

and get an option on a piece of land, like when they were expanding Cape Coral

6^7 44
or whatever, and would basically divide it up and sell lots from it, without

really owning it. And when they sold a certain percentage they would

exercise that option and purchase the land.

L--That doesn't sound legal to me. If they did it they must have been coveredly

doing it, because that would have been a criminal offense. I remember they

had something called the Phipps property in Cape Coral, which must have been

one of the things you are referring to, but I'm sure what they did with it was

legal. In fact, the garden was Phlpps' property. They weren't dumb enough

to do something that would be out and out criminal activity. They knew better.

S The GAC Properties period was interesting. It was interesting because for us,

the people we now had to work with were so different from the people the Rosen's


D--How is that?

L--My wife was a Pennsylvanian. Her ancestors were Pennsylvania Dutch. When she

met the people, she shook her head and she said, "They must have all gone to

Bucknell. You'll have problems with them. They're stodgy. They are going to

be ultra-conservative." Now Hayward Wills people were Quakers. T remember

I once wrote a promotion piece on a Quaker deal. Hayward thought he learned

something he never knew about Quakers, as to why they were successful in

business. It was a different ambiance a different way of looking at the


D--You're talking about the Pennsylvania people?

L--Yes. You know- I'm trying to think of the right word that describes this

business of people who had differing backgrounds, consequently had different

morals, had different folk ways that's really what it is. A different way

of working. For example, I remember we had...let me see what was the name of

our attorney...I don't remember Jerry's second name, but his assistant was a

Mormon. In various conversations, I found out that these people thought that

we were real dirt. They had the utmost contempt for us. We were really, in

essence, paying their salary, because without the generation of sales, these


people would have not been paid. But I found out that he really

looked down on us. I remember one day I had really had enough of it. I was

thinking you think you're so goddamn pure. And you think we have no principles.

And I gave him a little lecture on the background of the Company, and some of

the things we fought for and won, But they looked on the old Gulf people as

really being people without morals. They were very moralistic in their attitude.

I will say that. We built a company on street fights. They were very

sophisticated people.. I said that there were very few college graduates in

Gulf American well, these guys were all college graduates. That didn't mean

that they were smart. It didn't mean that they were superior. It meant in

their eyes there was a great social gulf between the lords of the manor and the

mercenaries. They weren't nearly as smart or as cultured as they thought they

were. Most of them were real stick-in-the-muds. A college degree does not mean

you are educated. My school today is called the poor man's Harvard. It wasn't

the poor man's Harvard when I went there but it was a pretty good school. I

learned a lot after I left. I'm going to the 50th anniversary of my class in


D--When were you born?

L--1917. I told you I was one of the older guys at Gulf. I'm older than Charlie

and Charlie looks older than me!

D--Anything else you'd like to add?

L--Offhand I can't think of anything except that I had great respect for Jack.

He did a lot of things I didn't like, but most of the things Jack did were

creative, and I think, the product of high aspirations. Not ambition. Ambition

is there, but high aspirations. Jack wanted to be a superior human being, and

he wanted the people around him, if he could possibly bring them along, to be

superior human beings. He encouraged them to go to speed reading classes at

his expense. All sorts of things like that. He brought in those State Dept.

people. Jack wanted to do good.

D--Do you think that the Rosens started out originally just with a get rich quick


scheme and came away with the idea they building a city down at Cape Coral.

L--I feel positive when they started, especially when you're using a guy like

Milt Mendelsohn, that the motive was to get rich quickly. On the other hand,

as I pointed out earlier in the game, Leonard also understood that it might not

be so quick, so you had better build well. I feel sure that the reason Cape

Coral is a flourishing city today is that Jack brainwashed his brother by

really making the dream come true. That this new world for a better tomorrow

was possible. That it could be a monument to them and in doing a job for

private profit. People have-mixed motives. Mine was always, first and foremost,

but that didn't mean that these guys didn't want to do a good job. Only after

they switched from lots to acreage at Leonard's insistence, did I think the

worse things developed. Now nobody could believe that Golden Gate could be

another Cape Coral. Not when you looked at the size of the thing and the way

it was being sold. It couldn't possibly be another Cape Coral. Nor could

Remuda or River Ranch. Poinciana P ark yes. It was near a population

center and it could be a bedroom community for Orlando. Jack fought the idea

of selling acreage. He wanted to keep building cities. But Leonard overpowered


D--One last question. Both the Rosens by the early or middle 60's were wealthy

men. Was that something that they flaunted or did they live fairly simple


L-- I never felt that either one of them flaunted anything. I mean they had nice

homes. The only man who was a real flaunter of any kind was Leonard. But I

don't think that Leonard really, because of his lifestyle, was really flaunting.

He was just a guy who liked to to jab people. I remember once my wife and I

were eating in a restaurant Casa's Santino and we sit down and Leonard

was sitting near us with his mistress. To show that he didn't flaunt, he sent

us a bottle of wine. I knew that Leonard was bribing me not to talk. He said

hello and all that, but he was bribing me not to talk. I wouldn't have talked

anyway. But if the guy had really been flaunting, he would have flaunted his


mistress too. He didn't. Within certain limits, he was observing proprieties.

If he didn't like the limits then o.k. But he didn't really go out of his way

to flaunt anything. It wasn't necessary. Leonard was much too secure a person-

ality. He just knew what he wanted to do and the hell with it. He didn't feel

it necessary to flaunt. Weak people flaunt. People who lack confidence in

their status. Leonard didn't have that. And Jack, though he wanted a different

sort of status, didn't want it in such a way that he had to flaunt wealth. And

he didn't. They would rather flaunt their money in making their contributions

to Jewish charities and causes. That was their flaunting. A pretty good kind

of flaunting. Jack was a very complex guy. The number three man was Charlie

Hepner. It was Leonard, Jack, and then Charlie. Then I guess it was Ed Pacelli.

D--Well thanks a lot for your time.

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