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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida.
Ybor City Typist: MargaretLenkway
Sept. 23, 1976
Page 1
Interview: A.L. Chiaramonte
Interview Date: 2-24-74
C: He just goes for it in a Hell of a big way which I don't. I'm pretty
conservative and pretty quiet about lots of things. But what are your
questions.
I: Ok. In answer to your first question I haven't interviewed But one
student from Ybor Elementary. I didn't want to take up interviewing
techniques if I could help it.
C: It was started... was it 1921? The first part.
I: The date 1903 keeps popping into my mind. There was a school,"school"
there in the 1890's. But buildings is another story. They built a
brand new building in 1915, as far as I...
C: The building in the back or the building in the front?
I: I think the building in the back. Ah, the records are contradictory.
In 1903 I think they build the first building, and then they made an
addition in 1915. And than another record says they built a whole
new building in 1915. But I can't be sure. Ah, what IVm going to do
then, but first you have some other questions?
C: No. I just ah...
I: Oh, this is for my Ph. D.
C: Yeah, well you told me that the other day.
I: Now, can you give me your full name?
C,:It's Al Chiaramonte, that's A-1 and then C-h-i-a-r-a-m-o-n---e,
I: And the birth place of your parents?
C: My parent's were born in Italy.
I: Sicily, or...
C: In Sicily that's right.
Ybor City Typist: Margaret Lenkway
Sept. 23, 1974
Page 2
I: Your own birth place?
C: What's that sir?
I: Your birth place.
C: I was born in Tampa.
I: Ok, Year?
C: September 7, 1912.
I: Nationality that you considered yourself as a child?
C: American citizen.
I: But your parents?
C: My parents were Italian, but of course they became Naturalized
after they came to this country.
I: And what was your native language at the time you were attending
Ybor?
C: Well it was Italian because we spoke in Italian at home. However,
because of the fact that I had two other brothers and three sisters all
of whom were older then I was I learned a lot of English from them.
I: Ok. Italian was your native language. But you probably could
speak English almost as well as Italian.
C: Back then?
I: Yes.
C: I spoke fairly good English. Of course I remember I was only
six years old when I entered school.
If Can you name and give the location of each Elementary School you
attended in Tampa, private or public?
C: Well I attended
Ybor City Lenkway
Sept. 30, 1974
Page 3
C: Well I attended public schools throughout my career, throughout
my life and I also attended the University of Florida. I went through
the fifth grade at B.M. Ybor School.
I: First through fifth?
C: First through fifth, the sixth grade was not taught at B.M. Ybor School
because the school was overcrowded. As I recall there must have been
twelve or thirteen-hundred students there at that time. So my sixth
grade was at Robert E. Lee School. And then from there I went to Junior
High School, George Washington Junior High, and then Hillsborough High
School.
I: And after wards vyou went to the University?
C: Ah, University of Florida.
I: Did you go to any free elementary schools? Any other schools.
C: No. No.
I: Did you know of the _, or the little local schools
they had at the time?
C: Oh yeah. Yes there were, there were some schools, I moved to a house
on llth Avenue and_12th Street in 1926, after I had gone through the
elementary, B.M. Ybor School. And right next door to my home was one of
these Espoleta's that you're talking about. A lady by the name of
was the operator in that school. I'm trying to think of the
woman ... But she had a school there that was more or less kindergarten.
And had 40 or 50 children there and she was teaching it.
I: What was her nationality?
C: She was, I think she was Cuban. She had a son who taught... and she
taught also, she taught piano,'piano and her son also taught piano.
I: Did they do this during the day, or was this at night?
C: No, it was during the day. In other words it's hh, most of the children
who were going to that
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 1, 1974
Page 4
C" No, it was during the day. In other words it's ah, most of the children
who were going to that as you referred to it, were children
of people who were working in cigar factories. And they would take the
children there to be taken care of and at the same time start learning some
things before they went into elementary school. Because there were, most
of them were of course, were ah, pre-elementary school children.
I: And they were mostly Spanish speaking?
C: Oh, yes. As a matter of fact I would say thatmore than 90 percent
of them were, were Spanish speaking children.
I: And the other 10 percent?
C: There might have been some Italian speaking people there. But I
think most of them were Spanish speaking children.
I: Where did you say the school was located?
C: It was at 948 llth Avenue.
I: And this was what year?
C: 1926, 27,28.
I: As late as that?
C: Yes.
I: Do you recall any other types, such as or little kindergarten
schools?
C: There seems to me like there was one on 9th Avenue, between 16th and 17th
Street, that was operated by ah, some church group that I do not recall
the name of the church.
I: By a church group. Could it have been Baptist? Or Presbyterian? Or
Methodist?
C: I'm not sure.
I: You're not thinking of Will Powers or Rosa Valdez?
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 1, 1974
Page 5
C: No, no, no. No this was something else that I can not remember,
See that was, that was prior to 1926 that IJm referring to. Because
see I moved from that neighborhood in 1926 and I know that that was,
that school was there in existence prior to 1926, but I cannot give you
any other information .
I: So you spent your childhood days in Ybor City?
C: Yes, oh yes.
I: How was it divided? Did you live in Italian part of town, or a
Spanish part? How were things...
C: No, they were all, people in that area were all mixed up. As a matter
of fact right next door to the house where I was living there was a colored
person living there. Which was very unusual. It.was very unusual for,
it was mulatto you know, not completely Negro.
I: Were they Latin Blacks?
C: Spanish. She spoke Spanish.
I: Ok. This \ is a very elusive thing because there's not
record of them.
C: Yeah.
I: But ah, they were used, indicated that they were principlely for
childcare, or...
C: Yes, it was principlely childcare, but of course they were learning
something there too.
I: Well what were they teaching them?
C: I can't tell youexactly what they were teaching.
I: Ok. You yourself never went there.
C: I know there'd be singing I could, see I was living right nect door
and we could hear the singing in there and we could hear the instructor
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 1, 1974
Page 6
instructing them. But incidently the instruction was in Spanish, it was not
in English.
I: So they didn't go there to learn English, I guess.
C: Huh?
I: They didn't go there to learn English?
C: No, they just went there... it was mostly... I would imagine t was
mostly to take care of them while the parents were working in the cigar
factories, or in some places like that. But at the same time they did some
singing and the lady, Mrs.... the lady that was running the place was
giving them some instruction.
I: How did you find going into the first grade without any pre-schooling?
C: I didn't have any problem at all, Andah, ah.,. As I look back now
I just marveled at the way that the teachers carried on and taught these
kids who didn't know English, with a lot of, of what we call today
audio-visual aids. Like for instance they'd have cardboard animals, made olt
of cardboard and they would just go ahead and put it on there and write on
the blackboard what it was. Like camel, or dog, or cat. And that's the way
we learned a lot of the things there. Of course, as I said I did know a lot
of English myself, but there were children in there that didn't know any
English at all.
I: How would they adapt to the jump?
C4 Well they just, they just listened, just listened to the conversation
and if the teacher would say, for instance they'd ask me "What is this?"
And I'd say "cat" then they realized that's what it was.
I: They were learning from listening to youand other students who could
do it? Did the non-English speaking students, have much chance to speak
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 2, 1974
Page 7
English at Ybor? Did they speak much English? In other words if you can't
speak English and you're a student; we some of the kids can't speak
English, and everyone wants to speak Spanish...
C: Well they wouldn't speak Spanish in the classroom. There was very
little Spanish speaking in the classroom. Most of the SpaAish speaking
was outside in the yard. And insidently there's something that's quite
strange, I don't know why it is but a Spanish speaking chil4 in that school
for instance, and even outside of the school there, would not be able to
wasn't able to speak in Italian but most of your Italian speaking kids
were able to speak Spanish. Why I don't know, but it did happen. And
even today you find a lot of Italian people that come from Italian background
who can speak Spanish, but the Spanish people can't speak Italian.
I don't know why, maybe because they just weren't not exposed, maybe it
was because those of us who came from Italian backgrounds had to learn the
Spanish because most of the people here were Spanish people. I dontt
know whether that was the reason for it.
I: That sounds like it. Well someone told me ___, Mr._
told me yesterday that Italy was under Spanish domination until 1870.
I don't know the history of Italy, but I've heard that said.
C: I'm not able to say that. I know that Sicily was dominated by several
different countries before it became completely under Italian rule. I can't
tell you what those countries are but one day I was looking at some of
the History of Sicily and I found out that there were several different countries,
at one time or another had dominated Sicily. But maybe... I'll tell you
Tony has done a lot of travelling and a lot of studying, as a matter of
fact he told me that he had picked-up a book in England, that give the
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 2, 1974
Page 8
history of Sicily. And in that, he told me that, that ah, the people
with ah, my parent's name had there, were very prominent at one time or an-
other back then. He told me that he was going to lend me the book so I
could read all about it, but I never had been by his home to pick-up
the book.
I: I think it would be well worth your while. Ok. I've got several sets
of questions here, I'll try and go through them as quick as I can. How
much time do you want to give to me?
C: Well, what ever time...
I: I don't want to keep you from anything.
C: No what ever time... I told the lady who is cleaning my house that when
ever she gets ready to go I will go ahead and take her and you can just ride
in the car and then come back with me. So I tell you, I'll tell her now
again that if she's ready...
I: Ok. First set of questions deals with your parents attitudes about
schools and education in the neighborhood. I'd like to know why your
parents choose to send you to B.M. Ybor?
C: Well, we had to go to school, to the school which was nearest our
home, and that was the school that was nearest our home.
I: You.mean the public school?
C: That's right.
I: And why didn't they-:send,'you to private school?
C: Ah, I don't think that they were to interested in sending the children
to public schools, I mean to private schools, to parochial schools. Enen
though they had come from Sicily and they had a Catholic background, why they
still thought it was best to send the children to public schools.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 2, 1974
Page 9
I: Did they ever express feelings or sentiments...
C: No.
I: Just, private school was out.
C: Yeah.
I: Ok. Because I noticed that many Spanish, I think Cuban, no Spanish
peopleseemed to have sent their kids to the private schools, or the
academies. The Academy of the Holy Names, The Scrid Heart.
C: Yeah, I had noticed that more of the Spanish speaking people, or people
that have a Spanish background go to parochial schools-than people of
Italian background.
I: What... when your parents sent you off to school what kind of ideals
or traits did they express about your becoming educated? When they said
you should become an educated person, what was an educated person? Do
you see what I'm saying? The ideal educated man should be a, should process
certain characteristics, what would they be?
C: Frankly I don't know how to answer that question. I know they were
very anxious for us to get an education and be able to do, be able to become
something more then what they were. In other words, my dad was a shoemaker
and my mother was a cigar maker, and they wanted us to become persons that
would be able to do better than what they had done. All though I just
marvel at the way they scraficed and they way they carried on, and scraficed
in order for the children to get an education. They were quite anxious
for all the children to become Americanized, and get a proper education,
and take their rightful place in the community.
I: Well let me pick some of these statements apart. Because this seems
to be a different way at looking at education. ysayhe educated
!a~eeuae
YXbpr City' Lenkway
Oct. 2, 1974
Page 10
man should be well read in the classics and history, or this,that and the
other, but your parents seemed to indicate that education was important
to help you achieve things that they didn't have.
C: That's right.
I: A very practical orientation. An Americanization.
C: That's right.
I: Do your parents, and that's another thing your parents weren't trying to
preserve the old culture, or Italian traits, they wanted you to become Americanized
C: That's right.
I: Did all Italian's share this view?
C: I don't know whether they all did, but I know my parents did.
I: Because, for example they had the \ \ \ \ That I
presume was to preserve the culture, or was it not?
C: Possibly, I think well, I think it was um, more of a place for social
activities, and to come in contact with other people that were from the other
country. Of course My daddy belonged to the Italian club for a long time,
the_ and ah, one of the reasons he belonged to it
also was the fact that it had these like a medical society, you know
where people were able to get attention, yeah help. And not only that, I
don't whether Tony may have told you this, at that time they also had a
situation where you pay your dues and if some member of the club died each
member was assesded a dollar, that would go to the family of the deceased to
help them out. See? So that they used to come around sometime in a month,
if eight or ten of the members had died, well there was an assessment of
eith or ten dollars to he&p the family. Sw it was a...he belonged to
it mostly for the contacts he had with other people that came from the
other country and bake bread with them.
Ybor City Lenkwgy-
Oct. 2, 1974
rage 11
I: Well did they then have a library?
C: My daddy had, mother didn't read or write.
I: Not your parents, but the ?_
C: They had a library, but whether they had one way back when he first
became a member, I don't know.
1: I guess I'm getting at, did they have any kinds of educational programs
at ?
C: I'm afraid I can't. You know who could have really helped you out on
a lot of that was Tony's father, Tony father. Because he
was active. See my dad was not active. No he was not active, because
my daddy was a shoemaker and he just worked day and night, seven days a
week and hardly had anytime for too much of the social events and going to
the clubs and all that. But Tony's father was very active in the organization,
I think he was an officer along time ago he
probably told you that. Did he?
I: No he didn't, we didn't cover that. Um, that's very good. Now, I'd like
to get into something, some questions on the interaction between the community
and the school. What role the school played in the local community? The
first question I have is: In what ways did the school officials, or the
teachers, different school personnel communicate with your family at home?
In other words by note, or did they ever didiit at all, or if they ever
invited them to come to a play, or something. What kinds of contact did
the school have with your family?
C: I personally don't remember of any contacts, whatever.
I: The teachers didn't make home visits?
C: No, not that I can remember.
I: Did the teachers ever send notes to your home?
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 2, 1974
Page 12
C: Just the report cards.
I: The report cards?
C: Yeah, that's all.
I: What was the reaction to the report cards? How were they handled at your
home? Did you bring... Did you bring your report cards?
C: Oh, yes.
I: Ok.
C: Oh yes, the parents were always very- interested in seeing the report
cards and especially if the report card was good they compliment you
very highly, t$EL if they were not good they say you just have study a little
harder.
I: Did your parents try to help you study, or leave it up to you?
C: No, no they... probably my brothers and sisters might have helped me,
but not parents, because they didn't know any English. They just, all
they knew was to work and work and work and scrafice and send the rest of
the children to school. So they never learned English. And ah, Daddy
knew a little bit and Motheijknew a little bit, but very, very little,
even up until the time they passed away they were not, they didn't know,
they couldn't carry-on a conversation in English, or read an English
language newspaper.
I; There was an Italian newspaper, wasn't there?
C: Oh yes. My daddy subscribed to an Italian language newspaper,
and he read Spanish, too. Yeah,
he could read Spanish.
I: Did he subscribe to any local Spanish papers?
C: Yes, he used to get, he subscribed to a Spanish ne4aper called
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 2, 1974
Page 13
which means The Translation. And as a matter of fact, what daddy used to
do he subscribed to the Italian paper from New York, __
and then he would, after he would finish reading it he would turn it
over to the publisher of this Spanish newspaper \ and a
day or two later why the Spanish newspaper would have translations from the
Italian newspaper into Spanish. From that paper that my daddy used to get.
And of course Mother worked in the cigar factory, and in the cigar factory
they had these readers, who would read to the people in Spanish. Always
in Spanish, there was no, as gar as I can recall there never any
Italian readers in the cigar factories. They were all Spanish.
I: There were a lot of Spanish people working there.
C: There were Italian people working there. Maybe that's the reason the
Italian people learned the Spanish too, because the readers were always
reading in Spanish. Anytime you read... To the Italian people... there's
several hospitals here, some of the best hospitals here are operated by
these Latin Clubs. \ operated by Spanish people from
one part of Spain, and then there's the Hospital, The
Italian people don't have a hospital but they have some sort of a working
arrangement with the other two hospitals, the other operated by Spainish
people.
I: One thing confused me a bit when I read a newspaper and you were talking
about the Communistic incidence of 1930, when people were getting all
adjetated and excited. I know back in the teens, or tens, or what ever
that there were Italian Socialists coming into this country, Italian
Anarchists and these people were influencial in mingling with the CubanN
people who were also interested in And I know in Tampa
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct, 2, 1974
Page 14
this was one of the major issues of the, the whole history. In fact
this is one of the things that interests the people who study, often.
Because it's the only thing left in tack. But all you can get hold of
these days are these early trade papers that Cubans and Italians put out,
and the Spanish put out. And it was all this socialism and all this
anarchism and all this trade unionism in them. Do you have any recollection
of how this effected relations with the American community' and the
outside community?
C: Well frankly I never had heard of that here. Not in Tampa. I never
heard of that. You say that you had some authorization of that here in
Tampa?
I: Tampa Tribune is loaded with it. I've been tracing through the papers
for the tens, earlier and even 1922. And I've got here they, let
me see they deported two Cubans fromnYbor for being anarchists. The
Italians had a newspaper, a socialist newspaper called or
or something like that, back about 1913. The Cubans had there papers, of
course and all of them were working together with what they call Socialistic
ideas, partly because of the coops and benevelant societies they had. This
made a lot of Americans,,Anglo-Americans suspicious, because to them
a lot of this meant either socialism or communism because they had these
beneveloent societies and cooperative type kndevers. And there were a lot
of words flung back and forth in the Tampa Trib and these other papers
about the coops, as they call it the cooperatives.
C:
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 15
I: Or cooperatives as they call it. They say that cooperatism is a nice
thing but, you know we kinda suspect these Italians, or these Cubans
and Spanish, especially since a lot of them are anarchists and you know
they go on and on.
C: Well I didn't you see you've really brought something to me here
that I didn't know about. I know that they had a lot of trouble in the
cigar factories.
I: In the 1930's?
C: Yes, and even before that Somebody would just get aggitated about
something there and say let's go out on strike. And of course everybody
had to walk out, because if they didn't they call them this and they
call them that, so everybody just walked out. And there were times when
they were on strike, I think one time they were on strike for about ten
months.
I: Yes, there was 1921 strike, 1901 and I think 1910. But 1921 was the big
strike.
C: There was an article on National publication, a very lengthy article
that pointed out a lot of this anarchy and all this communistic activity
on light in the Tampa cigar factories. And you know that they claimed that
some of the radical elements were aggitated by the readers in the cigar
factories, and for that reason at one time, I don't know if it was after on e
of the strikes was settle, or what they banned the readers from these
cigar factories.
I: It was in 1923.
C: Because they claimed they were reading a lot of things that were
radical items and things like that.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 16
I: But in your own experiences in the '20's you don't...
C: I don't. I never heard of anything like that there.
I: Ok. That's just on the side. Um, lets get back to the education.
Now the next thing. We were talking about community contact between the
parents and the school. I was wondering in what ways your parents-had
any contact with the school? We discussed how the school, or the lack
of the schools contact with the parents. Did your parents want to-go: c:
either write notes, or letters, or visit the principal, or visit the
teachers?
C: No. Neither my dad nor my mother ever went to the schools that I
went, that I attended. If there was any contact, it was made, it wag
made by an older brother or an older sister.
I: I don't understand that.
C: In other words if there was something that my parents would want the
teacher, or the principal to know why they would just have an older brother
or an older sister go to the school. Like for instance, one time my parents
thought that myabe I should be promoted from the third grade to the forth
grade, sort of social promotion, in other words they felt like I, like I
was very intelligent boy, I should get jumped one grade. So I either my sister
or my brother suggested to the teacher that I should be promoted to the
next grade. And so, that's the way it was done. I mean one, one of the
members of the family made the suggestion to the teacher. And of course the
teacher went ahead and examined me on a few questions and found nut I wasn't
ready for the next grade, so I didn't get promoted.
I: Did other families do this kind of thing?
C: Oh yes. From time to time while, if they felt like their children were
Ybor CIty Lenkway
Oct, 3, 1974
Page 17
very intelligent, why they'd ask if the child could be jumped one grade.
Well you know now, today they do that a lot. They really call it social
promotion, now where if a child can't do third grade work they go and
put him in the forth grade, rather than keep him behind.
I: Would other families use the older children as intermediaries?
C: I don't know, I would imagine they did, but I can't tell you.
I: Why would your parents? You probably can't answer-this question.
C: Well they couldn't, because they couldn't speak English.
I: Oh, I see.
C: See, and the teachers were, the teachers were English speaking people.
I don't believe I had any teachers there that spoke any Spanish or.-
Italian. Oh you know one thing, I just happened to think of a teacher
that is related to the mayor here, Mayor Greckle. She was teaching in
that school too... cut it out for a second I'll try to remember the name.
I: Ok. What ideals were stressed by your parents in raising children?
What were expected of children?
C: Oh, to be ah, course honesty was one thing that they stressed, honesty
and in school to be well disciplined, pay attention to teacher, and try
to get the very best education. That's about it, I ...
I: Well say in your homelife too? Ah, what did they expect of you in
terms of, well addressing them, was ah... Anglo culture for example, was
very different from Latin culture, your parents were Latin... How did they
expect you to interact with them, perhaps were you as __with your
parents as Anglo children-are with theirs? Did they punish you for certain
kinds of things? Did they warn you for other types of things? I'm trying
to get a berring on childhood ideals of Latin culture in Tampa, they types
of things parents would expect of their kids when raising them.
YBor City- Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 18
C: I just don't know how to answer that to tell you the truth. In
other words, we were justone happy family, I mean everyone just did
something, if daddy asked me to do something why.I'd do it, if mother
asked me to do something whykI'd do it and we never contradicted them,
and it was a well disciplined family. And if, for instance one time I
was anxious to get a motorcycle and my mother convinced me that it was not
the thing, at least she told that it was dangerous, and I ...
Side Two, Tape I
I: In other words, here you had parents that had a different way of bringing
up children than the American way of doing it,_
and so on. Thye come over here and they probably had different way of
dealing with each other as father to son, and mother to sonand'daughter
And then you go to the schools and schools are teaching you a different way
of acting towards your parents, or perhaps even the same way, I'm not
sure, and that's what I'm trying to find out. How did the school affect
relations between parents and children, and what parents expected of the
children?
C: I can't answer that question. I mean I just ah...
I: Well for example some'cases it put a strain because the schools expected
you to ah go to school, and parents didn't want you to go to school,
expected you to support the family and this caused a terrible strain on
relations in the family. In other cases I noticed that children were
taught that ah, ah their parents who worked in cigar factories were not as
good people as people who lead a different type of life, and so there was
a strain put on your family at home because you were taught to respect
somebody else, rather than your own parents.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 19
C: Well there were absultly no strains in my family. Now there may
have been in some families, but there were absultly no strains in my
family. My family ah, they wanted us to go to school. And we had, we
were given every opportunity in the world to get an education, they
were not anxious for us to go out and get a job, they said the first, the
mosttimportant thing is for you to go to school, get good grades, get a
good education, prepare yourself.
I: So school fit right in with all their goals.
C: Oh yes, absolutely.
I: Ok. Good. That's it for the parent contact. Now we get into something
else. Um, can you recall any adult education programs at B.M, Ybor during
the time you went there.
C: No, none at all.
I: Whether at night or day?
C: No education, no adult programs that I can recall.
I: Any night classes?
C: No there were no night courses.
I: English speaking courses?
C: No, I don't recall of anything at all like that at B.M. Ybor.
I: Do you know who the principal was during the time that you went there?
C: I have a faint recollection of a man by the name of Macintosh. For
part of the time that I was there, and then Frank C. Crow, was principal
for most of the time I was there.
I: Do you ever recall a man called Coleman?
C: Coleman. Yes, but I'm trying to, t-ying to get that name, I almost
started to give you that name before, but I can not recall whether Coleman
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 20
was a principal, or whether he was the Superintent of Schools.
I: That's what I'm wondering about. I thought Crow was a principal and
C: Well Crow was a principal there, but then there was someone by the
name of Coleman, but I can not recall whether he was the Superintent of
Schools or what. And incidently, I might want to refer you to a book
that you will find in the public library on the history of Hillsborough
County. Have you checked that book?
I: By Robinson.
C: By E.L. Robinson, yes.
I: That's a really good book. It gives you sorta of a \ \ \N
background Course it's much more detailed than that, but it's a good
way to start out.
C: E.L. Robinson was a Superintent of Schools here for 16 years, and
he was principal of Hillsborough High School, he was also supervisor of
our school system here for some time.
I: Weren't you involved in the school system?
C: Yes I was
I: I'm not to familiar with anything beyond 1930.
C: Well I was elected to the school board in 1936, two years after I was
graduated from the University of Florida, and I was on the board for 32 years,
with the exception of about 30 months while I was in the Army in World War
Two.
I: I wanted to ask you but I'll get to that a little later, a couple of
questions about the mechanics of the school board and trustees. I haven't
gotten any, all I've gotten is the shadow when you are starting
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 21
the school board when the trustees made occasional requests and the school
board granted the occasion requests, or declined, or tabled it, or
something like that. I could never understand what the powers of the
trustees were, what the power of the school board was, whether in practice,
or in paper. In fact it looked like the school board would determine
everything and there was really no need for the trustees, except to come in
and make a request which could either be accepted or declined. But then
I hear people tell me that the trustees had all the power and the school
board was merely doing what the trustees told them. I'm very confused on
that.
C: Well ah, at the time that I became associated with the school board in
1937, when I took office, I think there were about, about 30 different
school trustee districts in Hillsborough Country. And under the law these
trustees would reccommend certain thing things to the school board. Like
for instance, they would reccommend a certain individual, a principal of
a school and under the law the school board could turn down that re commendation.
In which case then, the trustees could go ahead and make a second recommendation,
go to the school board and the school board could turn down that
recommendation, also. That's what the law stated. And then after that the
school board could make its own appointment. That's what the law stated.
However, it didn't prove that way. It seems that ah, that ah the courts
ruled that the board, the school board could not turn down a recommendation
from the trustees, unless there was good and sufficient cause. So if
a person was recommended by the trustees and he was qualified for the job
and had the proper creditials, it was almost impossible for the school
board to turn it down, because if they did turn it down, the trustees would
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 22
go to court and force the school board to take it. So as a result the
school board, the trustees became very powerful in this country. And so
actually the school board almost became a rubber stamp, until eventually
the trustee boards were eliminated in the state and they had for awhile,
they had one county wide trustee board and then eventually the trustees were
eliminated all together, so that now the school board is the all powerful
body.
I: How .did thisitrusteeppower type relationship effect the schools in the
Latin districts? Your trustees, well as I can recall the Tampa school
district covered not only Ybor City, but...
C: It covered quite a bit of area outside of Tampa, yes.
I: Yes, at that point. So how would this affect the allocation,1or
distribution of educational resources for different people in the community?
What was on the minds of the trustees when they tried to make the school
system run? Of course I'm thinking back in the '20's, but your experiences
are in the '30's.
C: Your thinking back, you're thinking baek prior to the '20's, right?
I: Right. You weren't there then?
C: No, no I didn't come into the picture until '37, but after I came
on the board, the trustees were very receptive in doing everything they
could for the ah, schools in the Latin district too, And of course, they
became quite powerful politically too.. THey were more or less employing
all the people in the maintenance department, custodial crews, stuff like
that.
I: Trustees were elected, weren't they?
C: They were elected, yes. There were three trustees in each district.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page 4-3
I: So a school district could have, let's see, a school district would have a
special election?
C: Yes they had a special election and only people who had paid a tax on
personal or real property were entitled to vote in those trustee elections.
So usually the, the elections, very few people turned out for the trustee
elections.
I: And yet they had so much power granted to these people.
C: Oh yes.
I: What's personal property, back in those days?
C: Well it meant furniture and things like that, you know.
I: I didn't catch that.
C: Furniture, furniture, your piano, if you had a piano,
I: How about intangible like stocks?
C: None of that, no stocks, they were not entitled to vote on that.
I: Oh, in other words anybody with personal, this is important to me
because a lot of the records I'm turning up are voter registration lists,
and the qualifications were that you had to own real or personal property...
C: Yeah.
I: ... and what else? Probably be 21, um, and be a resident of the county.
C: Yeah, some...
I: SOmething like that. My opinion wasphat the real property meant you
had to ovn real estate.
C: Yeah.
I: Personal property, I'm not sure what that meant.
C: Well I'm sure that the personal property was ah, was furniture, things
like that. See?
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 3, 1974
Page r-?L/
I: Ok.
C: And usually a lot of time what people used to do, they used to go
a head a follow an affidavit, that they owned some personal property so
that they could pay a tax of a very, very small amount of money and that
would entitle them to vote.
I: Oh. Now one other thing is the White Primary. That really confuses
me. Back in 1910, there would be what they had the White Primary Party,
or the White ...
C: Yeah, but that was only in the city elections, not in the county.
I: Oh.
C: It was a municipal. The county didn't have that. But the...
I: How long did that last?
C: I don't know, because I don't remember when they got started. I do
remember that there was the White Municipal Primary, and usually a person
would only of course white people could run in the White Municipal
Primary.
I: Now that's the thing. How would the law state that, as excluding
Black people? Because Blacks were given the vote when reconstruction hit.
What was it like four blacks to one vote, or something like that. I know
at that point, that lets see, Republicans and Blacks were undesirable people
to vote, and that the primary, the White Primary partly helped to ah,
block out Republicans back in those days and also to block out blacks.
Partly because the colored people were considered to have those
that were partly for that reason. Ok. How would you have a
white primary stated in the laws? In other words, I'm a voter and let's say
I'm republican and I walk up and I say I want to vote in the White Primary,
is there any law against it? What law would there be against voting in a
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 4, 1974
page 25
White Primary, a White Republican? Outside the fact that I have real
property, and I'm over 21, and I'm a resident of the county?
C: Well I don't, course I don't have a copy of the law and I don't know
what it was, but I don't believe that it bared a Republican from voting.
Did it? I don't know.
I: Yes, because it was a primary, so only Democrats could vote in a
primary.
C: But this was not a Democratic Primary. Was it? I thought it was a
White Municipal,.. Was it a White Democratic Primary?
I: It was a White Democratic Municipal Primary.
C: Well see a lot of that was before my time.
I: No Republicans could run. In fact they didn't bother to run. ANd
what happens, this is very curious because the elections would take place
in November and if you read the old papers of the time there was just
nothing about the election ah, in November and at first I couldn't
understand it, and then I started reading back in March, when they had
the primary and papers were flooded with campaign advertisements.
C: So were the primaries held in March or were they held in September?
I: In Varch. They held the primaries in March,and that's when people were
elected, because you were only a primary candidate but by November you were
running unopposed. Because .
C: Did you find out when that went out of existence, that White Municipal
primary.
I: No I haven't. That's another one of these things that comes out of
left field. This whole business of ... I completely forgot the White Primary
as an institution in the South. I was raised in the South and I forgot about
it.
Ybor City Lenkwav
Oct. 4, 1974
Page 26
C: Where were you raised?
I: In Miami
C: Oh yeah.
I: I remember White Primaries.
C: Well did they have the White Primary in Miami, too?
I: Oh yeah, they had White Primary down there We used to have the Democratic
Primary in those days, we know once you made the nomination you were in.
C: You see the first contact that I ever really had with elections
here was in 1934, the day after that I was graduated from the University
of Florida, I reported for duty on the next morning, which was a Tuesday
and there was a county and state election. And ah, ah, ah, and that's the
first, and the managing editor of the Tampa Times, I was working as, I
went to work as a reporter on the Tampa Times, and Jerry McCloud, who
was the managing editor took me around town to visit the various precincts,
But that's the first time that I came in contact with an election, but
that was a county and state election. That was in '34, Now in '35 I
was involved as a reporter with the City election, that was held in
September of 1935, during a hurricane, that's when ballad boxes were
stollen and people voted more than they were supposed to vote, a very
bad period in the history of Tampa.
I: Ok. Let me g4t back on to this thing here. I'm going to talk a little
bit about classroom organization and my first question is: What techniques
did the teacher- use to manage the class? What techniques and-methdds, or
types of procedures were used in conducting the class from day to day?
C: Teachers didn't have any problem. Back then the teachers absolutely had
no problems what so ever with discipline, because ...
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 4, 197
Page 27
I: No, wait, that's not the question. The question is: What kinds of
methods were used to teach math, to teach geography, in other words how
were classes conducted on a daily routine, when you were in school, back
in the first say through the forth grades? Discipline is a whole other
problem.
C: Oh I see. Well I do recall math classes...
I: I know you were talking about they had the animals.
C: Yes.
I: That's a method.
C: Well yes, and I was starting to talk about operating a math classes,
where they would set up a grocery store, and people would come in and buy
so-many apples at so much, and how much would it cost, and they just had,
just like a regular grocery store and the teacher would tell a-person to
go buy so many cans of milk, at so much and to give the person the proper
amount of money. And math problems were worked out that way by the use
of,,um, um, operating like a little grocery store, that was one of the
methods that they used in my classes. I know subsequent to that time
they were even conducting like a cooking class, and um...
I: Home Ec?
C: Huh?
I: Was it Home Ec.?
C: Like a Home Ec. yes, but I mean they would, we would play like they
were going to cook something, and they say well "we're going to cook for
four people."
I: The girls and boys?
C: Yes. It wasxnot actually a cooking class, it was in the math, they
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 4, 1974
page 28
were teaching math, all right we're going to cook a certain thing,-for
four people. Now if were going to cook it for eight people, how much
shoudl we increase the percentages, or the fractions. See? So that was,
and of course the teacher would bring in, in ah, pictures of meals that
could be prepared, and what the recipe cAlled for, a portion for four
people, and then says, "Well now let's find out how much it will take of
each item to make it for eight, or for twelve people?" So that's been done
quite a bit in the schools and in the home ec. classes too, they teach
it...
I: How did they teach you to read?
C: As I recall we jsut read. They just, the teacher would read and then
ask us, a child to read ._
I: How did the children respond to that? That kind of method?
C: Asl remember they responded very well, some of them nashful, you know,
and the teacher would say a good work, when they did a good job reading, and
help them out if they couldn't read, or ask one of the other children if they
could help this person, you know.
I: Did they use children very much for that purpose?
C: They used some, yeah they used some. Especially where ah, ah children
didn't know the language too well, you know. Spanish, some of the Spanish
kids who couldn't read, the Spanish people had a hard time pronouncing a lot
of the words. Like shoes, shoes, the Spanish people had a hard time pronouncing
some of the words and of course that creates laughter sometimes ina
class when they mispronounce the word.
I: Well who would they use to help the Spanish children? Other Spanish
children?
Ybor city Lenkway
Oct. 4, 1974
Page 29
C; Yes other Spanish children, But. ou know-fr a long tie, h ee T don 't
know whether you know, or ever run into tnis thing, speaking SpaAicsh in
class was frowned here, even in the yards at lunch time, it was frowned
upon, and teachers would ah, would admonish the children not to speak
Spanish. And so for a long time, I don't know whether you run into this,
for a long time Spanish classes weren't even taught in the Public Schools
in Hillsborough County, because there was no call for it, the, everybody
was trying to get away from speaking Spanish. My wife taught in one school
here, oh about 15, 20 years ago and the teacher said she wanted her child
to be transferred from that school to another school in the county, because
she didn't want her child to become associated with people speaking Spanish.
She wanted her child to be moved to a school where the people were
predominantly Anglo-Saxon.
I: Was that child an Anglo-Saxon?
C: Yes. Italian.
I: Oh.
C: Yeah. And my wife says, she said, "I don't want my child with no
Spanish." And my wife said well that's, I said I wish I could speak more
than one language, because my wife is Anglo-Saxon. And this women, Italian
woman looked at her, like as if she were crazy that, that she would want
to speak more than one language. But you know it's changed now. There's
a lot of Spanish classes in the schools, now and everybody wants to learn
another language. But there was a period here where people were trying to
get away ...
I: When was that, actually?
C: Oh, I would say, I would say that it was in the '30's. Yeah,
Oct. 4, 1974
Page 30
I: Ok. What about physical ed? Did you have ah, I'm unclear, when did they
introduce physical ed? Was it there at the time you were going to school?
C: I don't know...
I: Did you go out and play ball?
C: Well, yeah we played a little bit outside, but not much of anything.
I don't think there was much physical ed. back then, I can't recall
it, much physical ed. There was in Junior High School, when I went to
junior high school. Right after that I went to junior high school around
the fall of '26, I think... '25 or '26 I can't remember.
I: Ok. Um, can't you think of how they used the p oards in those days?
black
They had &mp boards?
C: Oh yes. How they did what?
I: How they used them? Would they send you to the board?
C: Oh yeah. We went to the blackboard all the time.
I: Why? What was the...
C: Well they just tell you to write ah, ah, words, like spelling lessons,
they go ahead and ask you to _each person would have part of a
the blackboard then, and the teacher would go and check to see whether the
spelling was correct, or they would go ahead and the teacher would, ah
read a sentence and ask the child to write the sentence on the blackboard.
I: Now, lets see.
C: Course you know one thing, you may interview somebody else who went to
the same school and the teacher might!have had different approach.
I: That's what I have to find out. But ah, generally speaking it seems the
teachers had a course of study, or some annual, or something, didn't they?
C: They probably did.
rDOr iTy Lencway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 31
I: They tried to follow. Ok. How were the pupils arranged in the
classroom? Was there alphabetical order, or any special ordering
of the pupils? Did they get assigned seats?
C: They were assigned seats, but I don't remember how they were assigned
seats I know, I recall a class I was in the fifth grade and I bet there
must have been about 48 kids in that school, in that class.
I: How would they handle 48 or 50 kids? Was this in a classroom?
C: Yeah, one classroom.
I: Where would they put4hem, would they have seats, for all of them?
C: Oh yeah, yeah. They had these old type seats, you know... Yeah I'm
sure there were as many as 48 seats in that room. ANd I told you before
there was no discipline problem, because whenever someone went out of line,
everyone in school would know that something happened, in the principals
office with Mr. Frank C. Crowlwas principal of the school then, because he
used the paddle. And I'll tell you one thing, everybody behaved' in that
school, because if they didn't behave they would carry, they would be taken
to the principals office. And you could hear, from the outside of the
building, especially during the lunch period, you would hear, you'd see
somebody being taken over to the principals office and you could hear hhe
sounds.
I: What sort of a man was Mr. Crow? All I hear is the name Crow, and >-
all I read is in the School Board News, but can you make it more human,
or more personal form. Who was Mr. Crow, what did he look like ? Can
you ?
C: I don't know
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 32
I: What did he seem like to you at that time, you were just a small
kid?
C: Well he was a tall fellow, and he, I think he was an outstanding
principal, after he was principal of that school, I believe, Itm not sure,
I think he went to George Washington, but I know that he was at Sulfer
Springs School, and ah, and he was very well liked by a lot of teachers
who I have come in contact with, that told me that they liked him very much.
And um, he seemed to be a pretty good principal.
I: How did he deal with the Latin population, as I think the school was
mostly Latin, anyway?
C: Yeah, mostly Latin. He got along well.
I: He didn't speak Spanish though, did he?
C: I don't think so, I don't recall that he spoke Spanish. But he
seemed to get a long all right and ah, and ah, he was in the system for
a long, long time, even after being there at Washington for quite some
timm. But I cannot recall where he went from B.M. Ybor, but I know that
he was principal in several different schools. I tell you, ah, you want
to cut that out while I think a little.
I: They mention a Coleman. I never heard of Coleman. I heard of Crow,
and McIntoish, but never Coleman. So I guess I got to go back and check it
out again.
C: Well I'm just wondering then, I'm just wondering if Coleman, was the
superientent. I don't know.
I: You mean the county superientent?
C: Yeah, yeah.
I: Or the city superientent?
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 33
C: The County.
I: No, he was never county. THere was Marshall Moore, and J.E. Knight...
C: Oh yeah, that's right.
I: ... and somebody came after, it wasn't Coleman.
C: Well then Coleman, Coleman may have been a principal there, at one time,
or other, but they did mention Mclntoish and Coleman.
I: Yes, Mclntoish was almost after your time, Crow may recall...
C: Oh, Mclntoish was after their time, well then...
I: He was the 1930's.
C: Oh well then Coleman, was before. It must have been Coleman,and then
Frank C. Crow and then Mclntoish I guess.
I: That I can't answer at this point, till I look back at the records.
Ok. We'll take...
C: Now let me ask pou are all those things necessary for you to get into,
to work up your program? I mean about who was principal of the school
back then, way back then.
I: Yes, yes, because for one thing I ascertain the past history of Mr. Crow,
as being a teacher, an educator primarily. And this is significant, it
tells me that the school system habit to the only Latin school, and that they
put in charge of it a person that had been an educator, rather than a person
that might have been a businessman for all I know, and that it was a male,
because they probably needed a male person to take care of discipline problem
whenever they might arise, and that's about it. Plus Mr. Crow, then I look
at the outside activities of Mr. Crow and I find that he was also instrumental
in setting up other types of programs for Latins too, along with his wife.
Ybor CIty Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 34
So they were very instrumental in their concern with Latins. Now Coleman,
is another name that I'll have to trace in Newspapers, if I run across
that much, I haven't yet. I've never heard of him.
C: Well that name is way back there somewhere, I've had that name in my
mind, too.
I: Which name?
C: Coleman.
I: Oh.
C: Coleman, yeah, Coleman. Ok, let's get back to this. Were students
separated ...
C: Is this thing back on?
I: Oh yeaU. Were students separated on any basis such as sex, age,
nationality, ability, or any other basis?
C: Ah, sex. In other words they kept the boys on one side of the room
and the girls on the other side of the room, and at the lSch period, the
girls they um, one side of the yard, and the boys on the other side of
the yard, that's about the only separation that I recall.
I: Now this separation was in the classroom. All day long?
C: Yes.
I: And what grade did it start with? I know this is hard to recall.
Do you think it was through all the grades?
C: I don't know, I just happen to recall my.,.
I: There was some separation based on sex.
C: It seems to me like their was some.
YBor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 35
I: Now what about...
C: But in the same room, you know.
I: Right. What about if you had children coming over from Cuba who were
older, 14-15 say, what would they do with these children who had no
education, or probably illiterate and could speak no English, and they
would put them in... I know they put them in Ybor, but did they stick
them in with first graders, or what?
C: I can't answer that question. I know that, that in some of the classes
I had particularly, I remember the fifth grade there were boys that were
three or four years older then I was in that class, in the fifth grade,
but I can't recall...
I: What was there effect on the class?
C: I don't think they had any effect.
I: They didn't disrubt anything?
C: Well.no, if they did disrubt, why as I said they'd be sent to the,
but I don't remember nay disrubtion .
I: Are you suggesting that discipline was pretty well obeyed.
C: I think the discipline was very, very good,
I: ; \ measures of discipline included-sending the person
to the principal,
C: If it was ah, um, I don't recall whether the teachers disciplined the
students very much themselves, I think they usually just sent them over to
the principals office.
I: What other types of control would teachers exert on the classroom to
maintain order and discipline? Teacher thought you were talking too loud,
pr trying to disrupt it, and passing notes, what ever it was you did in
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 36
those days, what would she usually do?
C: Oh send you to the clock room.
I: Send you to the clock room?
C: Yeah, I got sent...
I: Would the students go to the clock room?
C: Oh yes, if they were asked to go to the clock room, and I think I was
sent to the clo'k room one time.
I: Did.it humllatec'youiror make you feel funny, or you just didn't care?
C: Well I don't know. Well I thought it was embaassing to be sent
to the clock room in front of all the rest of the class.
I: What were some of the things that teachers would reward you for? Did
they have a system of rewards?
C: Oh yes, ...
I: I'm sure they did.
C: Oh yes, they'd give you stars, or,..
I: Gold stars?
C: ... either it was ah, they'd have these rubber stamps that had a star,
or had a ...
Tape Two, Side One
I: What did you point out? What did this have to do with, what did you
get gold stars for doing?
C: Oh, a good grade on spelling, or reading, or discipline, or things like
that, and then ah, and then ah, sometimes if, they even would give us
maybe candy, or ice cream or something maybe at the Christmas time, or at
the end of the semester, something like that, why they Oaid if everybody
be good then at the end of the month we'd have a little party, or something,
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 37
But it mostly it mostly as I said was either the stars, or else they come
with a little rubber stamp that had either a star, or a picture of a
cat or a dog, or something.
I: Ok. Now werelgoing into another area and this area, this is what
I call culture content, the fact that this was American culture dealing
with immigrants from other countries, and I try to understand what the
process of interaction was between Latin culture and American culture, as
expressed in the school system. And that's what these questions are
geared towards. The first question is: What special programs existed
for those students who could not speak English, or those students who
were retarded either in age, ability, or physically or mentally retarded?
Were there any special programs for them?
C: I can't recall.
I: Were there any special attempts to help Latin students who could speak
no English, or not enough to get by in class?
C: Frankly, to tell you the truth, I can not reaall any special programs at
all. I think that ah, I think that what took place a lot of times was that
if the child, the child wasn't able to catch on to certain things the
teacher would try and contact an older brother, or an older sister in the
school and suggest to them that they try to help them at home. And you
see nearly everyone that was there in that school had an older brother, or
an older sister because-therewereenonother schools there, and as I said
before I think there were about 12, or 13-hundred kils in that one school.
And everyone had to go there, there was no other elementary school
anywhere close to there at that time.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 38
I: And they had to go there because of the boundary system?
C: That's right.
I: That's the school in you district and you couldn't go outside your
district?
C: That's right So you see at one time there, there were possibly
four members of my family going to that same school, three or four members
of my family going in that school. And I know that a lot of times the
teacher would try to contact some other member of the family that was
possibly in a higher grade and ask them to help the child, and ah...
And then of course I do recall, yes that sometime the teacher would ask the
child to stay after school and they would give them little tutoring,
outside tutoring, yes.
I: Well didn't... Did Ybor have one of those Chart Classes, or PreclAsses
for kids that were five ears old?
C: No not that I recall. No. I don't recall anything like that.
I: Do you recall any restrictions that teachers placed on speaking "-'-
Spanish, either on the grounds, or in the classroom, or in the corridors?
C: I ah, at the time that I was there in the school I do not recall, I do
not recall any restrictions on ... I told you that in the t30's there
were a lot of a lot of restrictions though, that was after I had already
gone through, through school myself. But I don't recall when I was in, in
elementary school that there was any restriction at all.
I: What happened if the kids were speaking Spanish in the classrooms?
C: You mean then?
1: Right. In the '20's. When you were there?
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 39
C: In the '20's?
I: I know you must have been sitting there and kids around you started
yacking in Spanish.
C: I tell you there was very little yacking in class, I don't know khy
I think, I think children then really paid attention to their teacher, and
they kept quiet. I don't think there was very much yacking back then.
I: And that's another question I was wondering, did teachers accompany
the children outside the classroom, or take them everywhere?
C: Yes, yes, we had to get in line outside and march in and then...
I: This I see today, elementary schools, the-children, today the children
in elementary schools, in some parts of the cities, are usually well
watched and controled, if you're going someplace you have to go with
your teacher. Was that the way'that the teacher controled, or watched
the classes in those days?
C: Where?
I: Taking them out by ?_
C: Yes, the teachers, teachers, and the teachers stayed outside during
the luch period And you know back then there were no cafiterias, no
luch rooms. The kids all brought their own lunch, cold ham sandwich, or...
I: Did they have heating back in those days?
C: Heat in schools? Yes there was heat in school.
I: Ok. Now let's see.
C: And the kids ate outside, outside there was...
I: In winter too?
C: Yeah, in the winter timeit was nice.
I: Yeah, I did that. Can you recall five methods or techniques that the
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 40
teachers used in working with the Latin people? This would include
yourself to help you with your lessons, knowing that you might not understand
them, for one reason or another? Were there any special techniques
that teachers had for helping students overcome language difficulties in
the classroom. I know you mentioned that they would resort to the older
brother, or older sister sometimes, but in the classroom itself, supposing
the child was stumbling, or just kept saying "I can't read in English", or
what ever. What, to your knowledge and recollection did the teacher do,
with thiskind of problem.
C: Ah, I just don't recall anything except, I mean I just don't recall
whether any problems like that developed.
I: I know, I recall...
C: You see the thing about it is this is that I started there in 1918,
and there were so many kids that had already gone through school there
before, and ah, and in case of my brothers.and sisters, they had already
gone through those schools there, so I had a pretty good knowledge,
a fairly good knowledge of the language already, so that I didn't have
much problem and I, I don't recall whether the other kids had very much of
a problem, unless they were kids that had just come in and usually somebody
would help them out.
I: Being somebody, being who?
C: Well one of the other kids would help them out sometime, even I
know outside of the building, sometime they would try to help them out
and tell them what the, teach them math and... but ah, I don't know,
I just have a faint recollection about some of these things.
Oct. 7, 1974
Page 41
I: See I recall, when I lived in Miami, 15 years ago, Cuban kids started
coming into the classroom, couldn't speak any English and very often the
teacher didn't know how to deal with it and what she would do was ignor it.
In other words, you ask the kid to read something, the kid would go
like that, she say okay you read it instead. And this would go on over and
over, week after week and eventually the kid wasn't learning anything in
school, and would probably have to learn it on his own, or something.
But this was the teachers reaction, being unable to deal with it.
probably
C: Well I would imagine, but that's &**! what was happening then too.
Ah, and ah, and for instance if the teacher would ask the child, "What
is a cat?" and the child would indicate that she didn't know what the
cat was, that's when she would come in with this illustration of wlt a
cat waS,ard say this is a cat.
I: So actually the teacher would try to help her. 4r:
C: Yeah, yeah. And I imagine that's nnne actually going on at that
time too, that whenever a child was having difficulty reading that they
would just past on to somebody else, and have somebody else eead an
item.
I: Okay. Um, now. What aspects of American culture did your teachers feel
most important for you to learn?
C: What exactly you mean by that?
I: Okay. There are something like fifty different items in any culture
that are important, that would include ... Okay, Plant City would be
farm life, for example, here it would be Democracy was very important in
showing kids how to vote, especially since they come from other countries.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 8, 1974
Page 42
And you have to learn how to read and write, and then you have to learn the
importance of being a citizen so that you could vote. Pledge of Aligence to
the flag every morning, was important, and sometimes respecting your parents,
was an important value. But I don't know if that would be a value that
an American teacher would feel important to stress, you might W-ant
to stress something else, I'm not sure. In the literature in New York
City, I know the teachers were very concerned with stressing to the
kids, that they were no longer immigrants, that they were going to have
to learn to be Americans and they would use different symbols, such as the
flag, ah, history books and history books, pictures of George Washington,
and things like this, so that you were getting ideas that being American
was associated with these kinds of symbols, and it would encourage you
to start making that jumb from there over to here. Now I don't know
what Tampa did, especially since Tampa is not New York City, it's a
different culture entirely. What did teachers keep telling you everyday
in the classroom, for example I'm sure that you were not, you perhaps might
have been considered sorta' of American, I'm not sure, but I know that
in those days, for sure people were either called American or Latin.
Which right there was a distinction, if you weren't American you were
Latin. How did Anglo-American teachers address Latins about this
problem of being Latin instead of American?
C: Well they tried to stress that we were Americans now, that most of
us were either born here, or else we came here to become American citizens.
And I don't know, I think that's, they just, respect for the law was about
the main thing that I can see, and to become good Americans and good citizens.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 8, 1974
Page 43
I: What... How do you mean respect the law? Was there a law day, or
something like that? Did you write essays about this?
C: No...
I: How did they...
C: THey tell you respect the police and not do anything that was contrary
to, you know to the laws of the community and the state.
I: How did they handleBome of our legendary figures in doing this? Did
they talk about the constitution?
C: Oh, yeah.
I: AId the Bill of Rights?
C: Yeah, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution yeah, and they had bible
reading everyday which now~hey don't have, and there was a bible reading
everyday, and they had Pledge of Alligence everyday...
I: Did they blow a bugle back then?
C: No, not that I recall.
I: No, they did in my day. Everyday we had flag raising ceremony.
C: No I don't remember, I don't remember any flag raising ceremony at
that school.
I: Did they have a flag in every classroom?
C: Yes, yes.
I: An American flag?
C: And usually, yeah, and usually, ah, there was usually a picture of
George Washington in just about every room.
I: Un huh. Did the teachers have special lessons on American History, or
other aspects of American culture? Okay, let 's see here, What activities,
or programs of the school, do you feel helped you most? That was through
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 8, 1974
Page 44
either courses, or types of activities, things like this, anything that
comes to mind. In the six years that you were in Elementary school,
what do you think helped you most of all, inint-ying to get an education?
C: I tell you I'm a poor subject for you to interview. Am I not?
I: Somethings you're very sharp on and here I guess nobodies ever asked
you this before.
C: No, you....
I: You never even thought about it.
C: You just don't think about those things.
I: Well I can remember in my days my favorite thing was hearing stories
from the Phys. Ed. couch, back in first grade. That was my highlight.
C: The thing about it is that I was very interested in going to school, I
liked school.
I: What did you like about it?
C: I just liked everything about school, and I just liked the art classes,
even though I wasn't much of an artist, and I liked reading and I liked
writing, and I liked spelling, and I liked arithmetic, and that's followed
me through high school and college, I took, in high school I took all the
math courses that I could take, Trigonometry, solid geometry, everything
that, I didn't even have to take some of those subjects, but I took them.
I just enjoyed, ah school. All the way through.
I: Did you make good grades?
C: I made fairly good grades. But I was very active in extra-curricular
activities, everywhere I went. So I think that probably I could have made
Ybor City Lenkway
OCt. 8, 1974
Page 45
a lot better grades if I had done a little bit more studying, but I made
good grades. I made honor role, I didn't make honor society, but I did
make honor role many times in college, and out of college. But ah, I
was very interested in many extra-curricular activities. And enjoyed doing
a !hot of those things, even when I was in elementary school.
I: What kind of eytra-curricular?
C: Oh, I was on the newspaper, on all the annual...
I: In Ybor? In elementary school?
C: Oh no, oh you're talking about ...
I: Yeah, at Ybor Elementary... I was wondering what ...
C: No, in the elementary grades there why I'd ah, enjoyed being in plays,
or anything on the stage, and I felt so important at the graduation exercises,
at the elementary school in the fifth grade we had little graduation
exercises, that I was on the program there and I introduced a fellow by
the name of Peter who played the violin, I was on the program,
and my folks fixed me up with a real nice suit because I was on the graduation
program. But I enjoyed being on the stage quite a bit, and making announcements
of programs, like a master oc ceremonies.
I: Didthey have many plays like this every year?
C: Oh, they had several.
I: Just an annual play?
C: No, just the class would ah, probably two or three of the fifth grade
class would all go down to the auditorium and they'd put on a little play
of some kind, and several times I was asked to introduce the numbers.
Ybor City- Lenkway
Oct. 8, 1974
Page 46
I: Where did they usually get the material from for these plays?
C: The principal, I mean the teachers would come up with some of them.
I: Would the teacher write the play out, or students?
C: I don't hink so they probalby had something all ready prepared.
I: Okay. Did they ever have any kinds of plays, dances, or anything
that emphasized Latin culture?
C: Not that I recall.
I: Celebrated Latin culture?
C: Not that I ...
I: Did they ever have a Latin festival day?
C: Not that I recall when I was there, they have sence, but not then.
I: Did they have a Christmas playin those days?
C: Yeah, they had Christmas activities.
I: And Halloween? \
C: I don't recall any Halloween activitity other than we make, you know
art, in the art class there, pumpkins and things like that.
I: Okay. Can you recall any of the things that your friends disliked
a lot about school, subjects, special courses that everybody hated all
together? Any teachers particularly, you don't have to give me any
names? What type of teacher would they dislike, or what type of course
would they dislike ? What are the things that people disliked about school
in those days?
C: I don't recall. I don't recall if they disliked it, or not.
Particularly, of course I know some of the bad boys+isliked the principal.
Ybor City Lenkway
Oct. 8, 1974
Page 47
I: Because of the paddlings.
C: I don't recall of any .
I: Okay. All right I just have one more question left and that'll be it.
It's very delightful the way I finally figured out these questions, cause
it saved a lot of time. Now, my last question is about the teachers and
how they reacted to teaching there. Some of the teachers were very young,
some of them were not so young, as I can recall from the statistics I've
seen, some of them came here fresh out of high school, not high school
but fresh out of teaching training, that didn't even have a lience or
any experience. Do you recall any young teachers especially that were
fresh out of school, practically?
C: Well I don't know but I told you about these two teachers that I, that
started teaching there, but that was after I left school. They started
teaching there with no college training at all, just high school graduates.
But ah, of the teachers that were teaching while I was there in the
elementary school, I don't know whether they had gone to college or not, I
just don't know.
I: But they had to have teaching experience? They were experience teachers.
C: I don't know whether they were experienced teachers, or not. I can't
tell you that.
I: How did they handle the classes, though?
thought
C: I thtnk they handled them very well.
I: In other words the students had confidence in the teacher..,
C: Yes.
I: You would do what you're told and there was no problem.
Ybor City, Lenkway
Oct. 8, 1974
Page 48
C: Yeah.
I: The teachers young, or old had no problem keeping the class together,
having the routine preformed everyday, doing what was expected.
C: You know one thing, ah, ah, persons, back in those days anyone who had,
who had been graduated from a senior high school was considered a teacher, back
in those days, so that they were respected by everybody in the community
as a plain teacher, even though they didn't have any college training.
Because back then there were not very many people who were going through
senior high school.
I: That's right. That was partically equivalent to getting a B.A.
today.
C: I had an annual, a 1912 annual somewhere, but I don't remember if-I
donated it to a library, or not. It was an annual, a Hillsborough, a
Hillsborough High School annual of 1912, that I had somewhere. But I
don't think that I have it around the house now. I would have been glad
to give it to you if I had. That might have given you some clues. But
I just don't remember what I might have done with it.
I: Oh, one thing I was wondering. Is, most of these teachers, you said
,- \ teachers that spoke Spanish, or were Spanish, or
Latins.
C: Which
I: I think you said earlier that there were no teachers, that you could
recall who were either Latin, or could speak Spanish or Italian.
C: Yeah, at the time that I was in school. Yes. I dontt recall of any,
there may have been, but I don't recall.
Lenkway
Yhor City Oct. 8, 1974
Page 49
only had
I: Then, you -ofi'course maybe five teachers anyhow. But
of the teachers you had these teachers then were all Anglo- Americans?
C: That's right. Yes.
I: They did not speak Spanish?
C: That's right.
I: They would not speak Spanish, anyway. Okay. What did they notice
about Latin culture; in dealing with students years? ARe
there anything that they particurally liked about Latin culture, or -
disliked about it, or reacted too?
C: The contacts that I had with those teachers were very favorable. They
seemed to like me and they seemed to like their work, and they seemed
to like to deal with these Latin children. As I recall. I had absolutely
no problems myself, and my first grade teacher I think she was real nice
to me, and she was very, very helpful. And one time I went to a, oh about
25 or 30 years after I left that school, I happened to go to a school
function and I saw her walk into the place and I recognized her. And I
thought the world of her, all I can remember is her name was Miss, or Mrs.
Rapper. My first grade teacher. And I thought she was wonderful, and as
far as I could see those teachers were just enchanted with working with
Latin kids.
I: Did they- ever notice anything about Latin folk heros, or Latin
holidays, did they ever have any curiosity about Latin foo4 or Latin customs?
C: I don't recall, I never thought of that. You see ah, ah, you see you had,
as I said before there were no lunch rooms, or there, everybody just about
ate sandwiches, and things like that. You know now and days they have yellow
rice and chicken and lunch rooms, and all kinds of Spanish
Ybor CIty Lenkway
Oct. 8, 1974
Page 50
dishes. Back then there was nothing like that. No I don't recall of
any, of any interest in Latin foods by any of the teachers that I came
into contact with.
I; Or customs, or anything else like that. But you still celebrated
your own holidays and customs at home, didn't you?
C: Very few.
I: Very few.
C: Yeah, very few. Ah, the only thing that I recall si the, what is it
on December 12, Santa Louchie, I believe it is, where they eat wheat cooked
with Very few Latin holidays that we observed at home.
I: I never expected, I mean Italians had apparently less trouble assimilating
then say the Cubans or the Spanish.
C: That's why I think that when the Italian people came over here they
came here to become American citizens...
I: Un huh. You didn't have any real intent, well maybe you did, when you
originally, of course you didn't. Italians didn't really expect to go back
to Italy?
C: Most of them didn't. Now in the case of my family...
I: Except to visit.
C: Yeah, my mother always wanted to go back for a visit, but never did get
round to it, to going back to Italy.
I: In your contacts with other Italian members of this community that's
your impression, like wise?
C: Yeah. You know up until the last several years hardly any of them went
back, but it's only been in the last, I say ten or 12 years that a lot
of these older Italians have gone back there for visits, because of airplane
Ybor CIty Lenkway
Oct. 9, 1974
Page 51
transportation. If you cut the thing out for a second ...
I: During the interview Mr. Chiaramonte, went over to Ybor City to
take the maid home, and pointed out a few of the places to me, including
the old Baptist school, located on 18th Street and 8th Avenue, or 17th
Street and 8th Avenue.
He talked about the communist things during 1930's, he said that
during the 1930's Cubans especially, were influenced by communist
elements, oricommunist retorick and communist sloggins, and caused
hardship among Italians who were trying to ah, make their way in the world.
For example, he said that he, his father in addition to being a shoemaker
had borrowed from the bank and then bought real estate, and then borrowed
more money, and bought more real estate, to the point that he had
something like 60 houses, which he would rent to, primarily to Latin
people. Now the Cubansk especially, gave his father a lot of problems
refusing to pay the rent, even to the point, that not only his father but
at least one other Italian family, went out of business during the '30's,
because they couldn't afford the taxes on the property and this principlely
because they couldn't collect the rent. When they went to collect the rent,
when his father did, the Cubans would actually sayhto him, "we don't have to
pay you, we're communists and if you don't like it, you don't have to eat
it." Which is apparently an early Spanish sloggen, "if you don't like it,
don't eat it". And so the communists were influencial in
promising the people all kinds of changes during the early '30's, which
of course wouldn't take place, and, and created this attitude so that
people wouldn't show godd faith and were very disrespectful. If you
Oct. 9, 1974
Page 52
tried to get the Cubans to leave the premises, for nonpayment of rent, you
first had to take it to court, which was a tedious process. Then if you
got them evicted, in the process of eviction they would tear the place pp.
So that it cost more for damages and more for these different expanses,
of prosecution, etcetera, then you could possibly make in profit on
renting to these tenents. And this was partly how you got run out of
business. However, this seems to be the origin, or the circumstances
surrounding the so called Communist Thing. Alligence having been made to
the Communists and the Cubans and they \ \
by \ \ \ and by Shorty Wilson.
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