Interviewee: Joseph Krissel
Interviewer: Sylvia Shorestein
Date: August 17, 1989; August 29, 1989
S: I am interviewing Joseph Krissel on August 17, 1989 at 6908 LaLoma Drive,
Jacksonville, Florida. Okay, Uncle Joe, start with the earliest recollections you
have of your grandparents and any stories you might remember. If not, then go
to your parents and where they lived and how they came to this country.
K: Well, to begin with, as far as my grandparents are concerned, the only one that I
knew while I was growing up in Denver, Colorado was on my mother's side and
the reason that I got to know her is because she came to live with us the last few
years of her life and that was the only grandparent that I knew.
S: What was her name?
K: Her name was, in Jewish it was Chipah Hija and Madeck which was my mother's
maiden name but I do not remember what my grandmother's married name was.
We never talked about her married name. Now, as far as I can recollect about
my parents,my dad was born in a town in Poland called Pinchk in 1868 and he
died in Tel-Aviv, Israel in 1962 where he is buried in one of the most holiest
cemeteries that they have in the city of Bnei Barak which is one of the most
religious cities in the state of Israel. My mother was born in the town of Brest
Litovsk, the town of Grodna which was part of Russia at that particular time and
she was born in March of 1880 and died in December 1981 at the ripe old age of
101. My dad lived to the age of ninety-four and he perhaps would have lived
longer had he not had an accident one Saturday morning going to synagogue
and he had the wrong glasses that he was wearing at the time and my mother
told us this story and he tripped and fell on the way to synagogue and he broke
his hip. He was hospitalized for almost a year in Israel. They had moved to
Israel back in 1948. They wanted to spend their last years in the holy land. So,
going to synagogue he tripped and he broke his hip and he was hospitalized and
finally gangrene had sent in and according to the orthodox religion, they believe
in the way you came into this world, that is the way you go out in this world, with
all of your limbs intact and so forth and consequently he refused the operation
and I guess that caused him to finally die at the age of ninety-four. First let me
get back to their meeting. Years ago in Israel, people were introduced.
S: In Israel or Europe?
K: In Europe. In Europe they were introduced and that sort of started, the parents
actually arranged for the marriage and my dad met my mother through that
arrangement and they became engaged immediately and soon after they were
married. My father's family name was Krizelman or Krisselman and my mother's
maiden name was Maydeck. When my dad finally decided to come to the United
States and he came to have a better life for one thing, for his family which at that
time I think numbered three children and his trade was watch making, fixing
watches and there was not that much of an opportunity in the little town where
they were living and in addition to that he would have been constricted to the
Polish army and being an orthodox Jew, that is a big no-no for the orthodox
people because of the food that they serve in the army and he would not have
been able to really keep up the religion and that is the worst thing you can do to
an orthodox Jew.
S: Uncle Joe, was someone here first in this country before your dad came over. In
other words, did someone in the family help him get over here?
K: Yes. His brother-in-law, my mother's oldest living brother at the time was living in
Denver, Colorado and he was the one that was instrumental in getting my dad to
come over from Europe and we settled in Denver.
S: Do you know about what year that is?
K: I would have to approximate the year. I would say approximately around the
1900, 1899, somewhere in that area.
S: I think my mother was born in 1900 if I am not mistaken and she was born in
Europe so it would be a little after 1900, would not it.
K: Well, not necessarily because I think my mother was pregnant with your mother
at the time that my father left so it is around that same time, it could be give or
take a year. But he left my mother there with three children, three of eleven
which turned out at the time and came to Denver in this little city at that time and
it was like a little town I was told. Even when I was growing up it was a little area
where we lived that was strictly orthodox Jews and you would think that you were
living in a small town in Europe.
S: What part of Denver was it?
K: The west Kolfax area which even today is still a strong Jewish neighborhood. Of
course it has moved from one area to another in the west Kolfax area but it still
consists of a lot of Jewish people, orthodox and conservative and perhaps a little
of reform but mostly it would be orthodox and conservative Jews. So now he
lives in Denver and he started working for a fellow by the name of Hyman had a
store on 17th and Larmire. Larmire Street is one of the main thoroughfares in
Denver running from east to west and because of his ultra-orthodox beliefs, my
dad never could make a lot of money because of the fact that he would not work
on Saturday. Friday afternoon he would take off and he tried to work Sundays
to take the place of it but it was not the same. And all the Jewish holidays that
came along he definitely would not work. So consequently it was quite a burden
on the family to get enough money together to subsist. We did own a house.
S: Before that, how did the rest of the family come over? Did your father send
money to get your mother here and the other children or how did they get over?
K: Yes. Once my father was settled and was making some money, he saved it up
and brought over my mother and the three children.
S: Who were the three children?
K: Well, to my recollection it was my oldest sister Mary, my brother Jack and my
sister Freida. Now I have got to go back because I said that when my dad came
over that my mother was pregnant I think with my sister Mary. It cannot be that
way because she probably was pregnant with Freida because Mary was already
born and Jack was born. As a matter of fact I know Jack was three years old
when my mother came to Denver so my sister Mary had to be about five and
Freida was probably a year, a year and a half maybe. It took that length of time
for him to accumulate enough money to bring them over.
S: So that was about 1905?
K: Yes, probably 1905, somewhere in that area. Anyhow, we settled in in this
Denver and my mother had the foresight of purchasing a duplex house which we
rented the other side to
S: Where did they get the money to purchase it?
K: Well, they mortgaged it, they borrowed and they were able to make the deal. Of
course years ago, in those years, property was not that expensive and I think my
mother was collecting about fifteen to twenty dollars a month for the rent of that
duplex. People that lived there by the name of Collage and then the rest of the
children were born in Denver.
S: Name them all, the living children.
K: Well, the living children, where we grew up. we grew up eight of us. Three had
died prior to my birth so I knew only of who they were and not what they were,
S: Name them in order, the living children.
K: The living children, okay, there was my sister as I mentioned, Mary, my brother
Jack, my sister Frieda, my brother Bill, my sister Minnie, my brother Irving, myself
and my sister Terri. Those were the eight children in their age group that grew
up together in that one house. Of course by the time I started to grow up my
sister Mary who was much older than me, she had decided to make a trip to New
York where she had some friends and she remained there for the rest of the time
that I started growing up and then consequently she met her husband, Sam
Harris, and they were married. They came to Denver on her honeymoon. Now,
getting back to we children growing up and as I mentioned, my dad never did
make too much money, we had to try to supplement some of that income and we
did by selling newspapers. Of course I was too young but my brother Jack and
my brother Bill and my brother Irving as we were growing older, we started each
one of us to get into the swing of it and maybe we would make fifty cents or sixty
cents during the summertime of course when we were not going to school. We
were going to Hebrew school. We started selling papers from one o'clock, two
o'clock in the afternoon till about six o'clock and we would earn about fifty cents,
maybe sixty cents because the newspapers at that time, they cost us a penny
and we sold them for two cents. You had to sell quite a few newspapers to make
that kind of money but we looked forward to bringing that money home so we
could give it to our mother who managed the finances. My dad was one that
liked nice things and tried to do the best that he could with his income and I
remember though, not vaguely but very distinctly how whenever a new fruit
would come out he would buy it and bring it home to us so that we could taste of
the first fruits of the season. He was very kind, a quiet, laid back man. Never
shouted, never heard a word come out of his mouth other than nice things. And
of course my mother ran the household with the money that he brought in and
the money that we were able to also bring in.
S: Now I had heard a story that Bubbo also worked. She did some type of work.
K: Yes. My mother worked for her brother. He had a junk yard across the street
from where we lived and she worked there washing bottles, cleaning them out,
washing them so that they would be resalable. She worked quite hard doing that
and can you imagine with raising eight children and cooking and cleaning
because when the kids were all small they could not contribute but after they got
a little bit older so each one of us had to do a little bit of a chore here and there.
Mostly the girls, not so much the fellows because we were going to Hebrew
school after or chadir and we would go to public school from nine to about three
fifteen, we would come home and we would get a slice of bread with maybe
some jelly on it or maybe some sugar or maybe sometimes we would have a
piece of toast with some garlic spread over it. Oh, that was really a treat to have
something like that and we would gulp it down and we would go to our
tomatorahor chadir as it was called which was just about maybe two blocks away
from us and the hours there were from four in the evening to seven. And we
would come home and that is when we would have out supper. We called it
supper at that time because that is exactly what it was. My dad of course would
come home around that time. So we went to Hebrew school as it is called now
from Monday through Thursday. Friday afternoon there was no Hebrew school
because we had to get ready for the chabis so we went to services Friday night.
Saturday morning we also went to services with my father, mostly my father
because here again my mother had all kinds of things she had to take care of but
she would go for the holidays and occasionally on a Saturday.
S: Was it a small shul?
K: Well, a funny thing, my dad went to a large shul which was quite a distance from
our house and my mother went to a smaller shul where her brother was a big
maher, was a president there and so forth.
S: What was his name?
K: His name was Bahalter and the name of Krisselman, when my dad came to
Denver and my aunt asked him, listen, your name is Krisselman and in English is
sounds like crazyman, why do not you adopt my name which is a nice Jewish
name, Ginsberg and my dad did know from these things, he said okay, that is
good enough for me. And so we were brought up going to school and so forth
with the name of Ginsberg. On the other hand, my uncle changed his name to
Bahalter when his name was Maydeck and he changed it to Bahalter and there
was a reason for that as well as the reason for my father. No, the reason for my
uncle changing that is because he went to live with a family who had not children
in Europe so that he would not be conscripted to the army and then afterwards
he left and came to Denver. So mother worked for him for quite some time
cleaning bottles, washing the bottles and so forth and as the girls grew up, they
used to go on Sundays to pick strawberries during the summertime and they too
would earn maybe a dollar, backbreaking job but they did it with a smile and each
one of us contributed the money and mother took good care of it and then as we
were growing older my sister Mary had already lived in Jersey City, she was
settled in there and my brother Jack had gone to California to seek his fortune
there and it did not work out for him so he went and came to Jersey City and he
started to work for her brother-in-law Sam who had a men's store in Jersey City.
S: About what year was that?
K: That was about 1928 maybe. It was during the depression when hard times
were coming so he started working there. Maybe it was before that, maybe it
was 1924 because I think about ten years later I started to work for my
brother-in-law. I took his place and Jack had gone elsewhere to seek his fortune.
But we left Denver I was fourteen years old which was 1928, I was born May 6,
1914 so after we were out of school in July my dad had already gone on to
Jersey City and he was working and he found a place for us to live--renting. So
we came afterwards to join him and we lived in Jersey at 179 Myrtle Avenue and
we were living like two doors away from a synagogue because as I mentioned
how orthodox my father was and he would never ride on the sabbath or the
holidays so we had to have the synagogue real close by. So okay, I continued
my schooling and so did everybody else and after we found out our name was
not Ginsberg so we decided we were going to have it changed closer to what our
name was. My sister Terri and I, we were the first ones to decide to decide to
change it to Krissel.
S: What year was that, that was later.
K: Oh yes, that was, well, not too much later. It was probably around 1932.
S: Before you were married?
K: Oh, yes, long before I was married. Sure, we changed our name, Terry and I
changed it to Krissel, we just shortened it instead of Krisselman and then not
long after that the rest of the family changed it except for my sister Frieda. She
remained with the name Ginsberg. I went to work while going to school. After
school I went to work in a butcher shop delivering meat and so forth, again
because I was ambitious and I just could not stand just sitting around doing
nothing then after two years, 1930 we moved to Brooklyn, to 321 Crown Street.
Here again we lived right opposite a big synagogue, the Crown Heights Yeshiva.
I have a fairly good voice and they asked me if I would sing in the choir which
they would pay me for.
S: How old were you then?
K: Let us see, this was already after we were there for a while. I guess I was about
S: When did you move to Brooklyn? How old were you?
K: In 1930, so I was sixteen years old and add two more years there so I was going
to take the job but my father did not want me to because he said those that sing
in the choir do not pray, all they do is sing the songs and he did not want this for
me and he still had control over me and we listened to him, we obeyed him, we
respected him, respected his wishes. But I continued to practice and I would pick
up a tune from one cantor and another cantor and it was later on in life it paid off
for me which I will come to very shortly. Then we lived on Crown Street for
several years. I forget the exact year but I know in 1933 we were still living there
when my folks decided to make a trip. Mother had saved up all these dollar bills
and my father had some tucked away. I remember seeing him pull out a bunch
of dollar bills, all wrinkled up, and they made a trip, went back to Russia and
Poland to their home towns. They wanted to see what things were like, they still
had relatives there so they made this trip the summer of 1933 and then I think it
was right after that in 1934 or maybe 1935 that we moved to President Street
which is just two blocks away from Crown Street and we lived there in an
apartment on the second floor. There I also got a job working for a butcher after
school. I finished my schooling and I went to a business college for one
semester and I really did not feel at home there and I gave that up and I just
decided that my best bet is to try to get into selling because I felt that this is
where I belonged. I was comfortable with it. So in 1934 when my brother Jack
decided to leave my brother-in-law Sam Harris, my brother-in-law had asked me
if would I join him because at that time I was working in a fur place and I was
doing fairly well even though it was during the depression. It was hard work but I
enjoyed it and so I made the decision to go to work for my brother-in-law and I
worked there from 1934 until 1943 at which time I went into the army.
S: Uncle Joe, what did the family do for recreation when you were young. I know
you were poor and there was not much money but what did you do on Sunday
and what did you do for recreation.
K: Well, actually, when I was not old enough to go selling newspapers, Sunday
afternoon, well, we used to have a softball game or we used to play with each
other, we had no toys. So all the kids in the neighborhood, I mean we had
different games that we used to concoct like run sheep run and prisoner and
peggy. Now that was an interesting game. We used to take piece of a
broomstick handle and we would make a two point, the whole thing was about
maybe five inches in length and on each end there was a point and then we
would take about another piece of a broom handle which would be perhaps
about ten inches long and we would take and from one end of the stick, from the
ten-inch stick we would hit down on the front point of the peggy and as it would
come up in the air you would sit and swing and hit the peggy and someone out
there would try to take the peggy. This peggy was sitting on the ground and we
would draw a box around it and in the middle of the box would be a line
separating it, making two halves out of it so that after we hit the peggy, your
opponent could not catch it in flight then he would throw the peggy and try to hit
the stick. If he hit the stick, then it was his turn to come up, however, if he did not
hit the stick and he did not catch it in flight then you would estimate how many
turns of the stick that you hit the peggy with, how many turns it would take to
reach the box and if you were over that amount than your opponent took over but
if you were under the amount then you had like say you said fifty and there was
room for like two more, you were okay but if you said fifty and there was only
forty-eight then you would take this stick and measure it end over end until you
got to this box and the one who had the most points after a certain length of time
was the winner. But it was a very interesting game and it helped to while the
S: Did you go to movies?
K: Yes. Movies at that time were five cents and occasionally we would, if we had
the money, we would hitch a ride to down town because we did have a movie
house in our neighborhood. As a matter of fact there was one movie house that I
won several prizes amateur night. I would go there to sing and I would win a
large bag full of fresh vegetables that I would take home. Of course my parents
were not for it, as a matter of fact they did not like the idea but they liked the idea
of me bringing home the fresh vegetables.
S: Why did not they like you singing?
K: Well, they just felt that, you know, singing is an actor and an actor is wrong, it is
not religious. It all is based on religion. They wanted me to seek a fortune in
another type of work where I would not have to work on Saturdays or holidays,
you know, and of course at that time it was not that difficult, but as time went on
naturally it was quite a thorn, you know, if you were trying to seek a good job and
you had to tell them well I am sorry, I cannot work Saturdays and I cannot work
holidays, they would forget all about you.
S: Did Grandma and Grandpa, what did they do for recreation? Did they have
K: They had children, they did not have TV. That was their recreation. Yes, they
did. Well, they used to go occasionally, for the holidays especially and I was the
youngest of the boys so my dad always used to decide that I was the one, that I
had to go with him and so we would go to visit the rabbi's house and he had
several rabbi's that were his cronies and I was interesting, it was nice and during
the summertime he used to love music and every now and then he would ask me
to join him and of course I wanted to say no, but my mother says no, you have
got to go with him and so I did. We would go to the city park and we would listen
to the concerts there and for that I was given a nickel for a bottle of soda pop as
it was called then and my dad would buy peanuts and I would sit there and have
some peanuts and drink some of the soda pop and it was a treat. We would
drive on the trolley car all the way down. Now, I mentioned we used to hitch a
ride sometimes and go down town because there was one street, Curtis Street,
down in down town Denver that had quite a few movie houses on both sides, I
imagine there must have been at least twenty on either side of the street and
there you would see any number of pictures for a nickel. Sometimes we would
be in there for maybe four, five, six hours just for that one nickel.
S: What year was this? Were these speaking movies or only silent movies?
K: No, not speaking, they were silent movies and I would say it was around 1921
maybe, 1922 and that was an enjoyable thing. So, this is how we grew up.
S: Did you go to public school?
K: I went to public school in Denver, Cheltenham where all of us did and of course
we would have the same teacher and we would come into her class and she
would say--Mrs. Lawton was her name--she would say no, not another Ginsberg.
She says are you related to Minnie, are you related to Irving, to Frieda. I says
yes, they are my sisters and brother. Of course my sister Terri followed after me.
S: Did she like you or did she give you a hard time?
K: Oh, no. She was was very pleasant, very understanding because she had
several children that were going to school too to the Cheltenham school. But
there was a time that both Terri and I and I think Minnie also, we were very bad
eaters as children and consequently my mother used to threaten me that she
was going to take me to the judge and throw me in the jail because I would not
eat. I was thin as a rail and so was my sister Terri and Minnie, we were
underweight and so we went to a special school for a semester to gain weight. It
was called the open air school which was located in the same vicinity, maybe a
block away from the J.C.R.S. which is the Jewish Consumptive Relief Society
which is today the national home for asthmatics in Denver which is a very big
S: Home or hospital.
K: Well, it is a hospital and home because they do take in children from broken
homes, orphans and they do raise them. So at the open air school we used to
go, at nine o'clock it would start and at ten thirty we used to go up on the roof and
we would have a pint or was it a half pint of milk, eight ounces, that is a half pint,
yes, a half pint of milk and a couple of graham crackers and then we would lie
down for a while, about a half hour we would rest. Then we would go back to
class and at noon time we used to have lunch and some of the things they
served I just did not care for. Being a bad eater I did not like this, I did not like
that--very fussy. And so consequently instead of gaining weight I was losing
weight. Where everybody was getting gold stars, I was not getting anything and
in fact one day I was so desperate that, oh, and by the way, that was our lunch
hour and then at, I think it was one thirty, again we had this half pint of milk and
two graham crackers and rested. So getting back to how desperate I was one
week. On Fridays they used to weight us and the one that gained the most
would get the gold star. On my way to school I put some rocks in my pocket but
lo and behold I was discovered by my teacher and I do not remember whether I
was punished for it or what but it did not work for me. Anyhow, I spent the
semester there and it did not put any weight on me. After this one term in the
open air school I then went to Lake Junior High School which was a brand new
school, it had just opened up and it was a beautiful school at the time and it was
soon after that that we moved to Jersey City. Now as far as the recreation, I
mentioned we played all kinds of games together and I had two very close
friends, brothers, who they thought we were rich and we thought they were
because they had a cow and they had a horse and once in a while I would come
over to their house and they would come over to our house and we were very
good friends, in fact they still are friends of my to this day. One is a doctor and
the other is an attorney. They still live in Denver. What is the question you
asked me before?
S: Were you friendly or close with other relatives?
K: Yes, we had my first cousins who lived two blocks away, they came to Denver
because of us. That was my father's sister and they lived a couple of blocks
away from us. They had a grocery store.
S: What was their name?
K: Their name was Schwartz. It was Pearl and Willie Schwartz and they had three
sons. One passed away and the other two are living. One lives in Detroit,
Michigan and the other lives in Brooklyn.
S: What are their names?
K: Well, Mishe is the younger one, that is about a little younger than me maybe by
six months or something like that and the brother Ernie is the older one, in fact he
was the oldest. Ernie was an attorney, he also worked for the IRS.
S: These are your first cousins because his mother was my aunt so we were first
S: On whose side?
K: I mentioned, my father's side. Now we also had cousins, the Bahalters. The
father, Joe Bahalter, was my first cousin and he had two sons. He has Harold
Bahalter is a second cousin and Barton. Barton lives in Boston and Harold has
come down and has made his home now in Deerfield Beach. He also lived in
Boston for quite some time. Let us see, we had other cousins called the
Weinstocks. I personally, of course, being that young, was not that familiar or
friendly with them whereas my sister Minnie and Frieda, they were their peers so
I guess they were closer to them but then we were closer to other cousins. My
cousin Yetta Spector and Manuel Spector. Now Yetta was my mother's niece
from her father's side who was her brother, Rueben was a brother of my mother.
Yetta for a while took care of my grandmother and then when the children
started to grow up my mother took her mother, my grandmother, to live with us.
S: When was that?
K: I would say around 1919, 1920.
S: She came over here, your grandmother, at that time?
K: She must have come over several years before that. I would say she came over
around 1918 maybe. Where did she live when she first came over. Well she
lived with my cousin Yetta, Yetta Spector. Now Yetta has three children, the
oldest is Lillian and then a brother Marvin and then a sister Marpid.
S: All right, give the full names of everybody.
K: Marvin Spector who lives in Denver and he has a wife Lillian. He has two living
sons, he has one son Barry in Denver and he has another son that lives in San
Diego, California, Randy I believe his name is. He lost one son in an automobile
mishap. A jeep had turned over on him during a ride in the mountains and it
crushed him and he lived in agony for about eight hours and finally died. Now
my cousin Lillian had several children although I think I met one of her daughters
but other than that she is married to, we call him Doc but his name is Sid Cohen
and they still live in Denver and we see them occasionally when we go to Denver
on a trip or when they come to Miami. It was when we were living in Brooklyn
that I met my wife. I met her on a boat ride. Now how this came about is very
unusual because there was a young lady that lived on the east side of New York
that moved into our neighborhood in Brooklyn and she became friendly. We had
a social club and an athletic club. We played softball, we had a very good
softball team. And she was like one of the boys and became friendly with us and
one day she said to me, Joe, would you buy a ticket for this boat ride that these
friends of ours, their club is sponsoring.
S: What year?
K: This was in 1937. This was for Declaration Day weekend, May 30, 1937 and
would I go on this boat ride so I said, well, I do not know. I says if I do go, I
would need two tickets because I will not go by myself. I had met this young lady
that I was dating occasionally who lived out in Washington Heights which was
like an hour and a half trip from Brooklyn. I met her at the Catskills the summer
before so I called her and asked her would she go with me on this boat ride to
Bear Mountain I think is was. She said I would love to, I said okay. I said you
will have to make the lunches, she said okay, no problem so I met her at the pier
and we went to the boat and on the boat I met, I did not know it, I met Shirley's
brothers and I became quite friendly with her oldest brother, Mickey, we took a
liking to each other, we hit it off, in fact he asked me to join him. I was a softball
pitcher and he had a game their and I never saw Aunt Shirley until afterwards
and on the way back while we were waiting for the boat to come pick us they had
a pavilion with a juke box and they were playing songs and people were dancing
so I asked my date to dance and she says sure, fine and after one or two dances
she decided that she was tired. Well, I said, you do not mind if I dance and she
said no, go ahead. Okay, she I got on the floor, I started to ask one girl to dance
and I look around and she is on the floor dancing with some guy and I had
noticed that this guy was looking at her and she was looking at him so it really did
not make any difference for me because she was not what I would consider a
steady date, I mean once in a while, if I felt like making the trip there to see her I
would ask her for a date. Also I felt that she was too young for me. So anyhow,
then I started dancing with different girls and then all of the sudden I had this
young lady in my arms and somebody made a remark, hey, be careful, that is
Mickey's sister and so I says to this young lady, gee, I did not know that she was
Mickey's sister, I thought it was the girl I had just gotten through dancing with so
a small voice says to me, she is not Mickey's sister, I am. So I says, really, I
says, what is your name, she says Shirley. Well I told her my name and I looked
at her and then I danced with her again, got her on the boat, I asked her to dance
and then I asked her if I could see her again. Then she says yes, she does not
mind and she gave me her address and I said gee, how do you get there. I says
well, I will find a way. Anyhow, oh, while I was dancing with these other girls,
these friends that I had made came over to me, hey Joe, you want us to take
care of this guy, I says no, let her enjoy, no problem. Anyhow, on the boat she
apologized to me and she says I am sorry and this and that and she says this
fellow lives out near where I live. Do you mind if he takes me home. I says no, I
says by all means, I would appreciate it because this was late at night and I could
just visualize myself coming home like three o'clock in the morning. So I got rid
of that and so then I went on my first date and sure enough I got stood up. She
was not there. My present wife, my wifie, Shirley. She was not home and I was
so disappointed because I was looking forward to this date. But anyhow and of
course I was trying to think of what kind of an excuse can I give her brothers,
what am I doing up there. Anyhow, I had some pictures I had taken on the boat
and I brought them with me. And so I called her during the week and we set a
date. She said she was not feeling too well, she had to go to the doctor or
something. Then we started dating from then on and the following year on the
same boat, on the same boat ride, I gave her an engagement ring and then the
following year, on July 30, 1939 we were married.
K: In Brooklyn in my parents' home.
[Break in the interview]
S: This is Sylvia Shorestein with the continuation of the interview with Joseph
Krissel on August 24, 1989.
K: And so on July 30, 1939 we were married and we left on our honeymoon. We
went to Denver, Colorado where I was born and raised. My brother Jack joined
us. He accompanied us. Sort of a chaperon you might say and he was still
single at the time but he chaperoned us on our trip to Denver where we met with
my brother Bill and my sister-in-law Alice and we just had a beautiful time on our
honeymoon. And when we came back, of course I went back to work. At the
time, referring to work, I started working in 1934 for my brother-in-law, Sam
Harris, who had this men's store in down town Newark Avenue in Jersey City.
This store was first opened by Sam Harris' father, I believe in the year 1909 and
after our marriage in 1939 we moved to Jersey City and we lived there at 1991
Hudson Boulevard until I was inducted into the army on January 16, 1944. I
joined the army and since the war in Europe ended in May 1945, chances for
advancements were very scarce, however, I managed to become a radio
operator for our regimental commander and received a technician fourth grade
rating which was the equivalent of a sergeant. I spent eleven months in Europe,
arriving in January of 1945 and leaving in December in 1945 during which time
we traveled through France, Germany and Austria. In ninety days we went
through three countries. We had a real fast, light infantry division.
S: Was there any combat that you were in?
K: Actually the only combat, you might call it combat, that I saw was we approached
an airport in Germany and as we were getting there, this is in the convoy, I
noticed that there was a plane that took off that tried to get away and I opened up
fire with my fifteen millimeter caliber machine gun which was mounted on the
jeep and when I started to fire, then the rest of the regiment started firing and the
plane turned around and came back, landed at the airport and we captured it.
S: What kind of a plane?
K: It was an observation plan.
K: German, yes, a German plane. Our particular company which was composed of
radio operators never did see actual combat because we supplied the
communication for the entire regiment so we were sort of in the back because
the companies, they were ahead of us, company A, B, C and D and the different
battalions and then came regiment and then came division. We were in the
regimental headquarters company so we were quite a distance away although
we did hear some of the gun fire, we heard some of the tanks, but we were not
really subjected to hand to hand combat.
S: Where were you stationed most of the time?
K: Well, actually, we were not stationed in any particular area. As I said we moved
quite rapidly through Europe. In ninety days we arrived in Le Harve in France
and we continued going through France chasing the enemy of course and then
through Germany and into Austria. On May 5, we arrived in a town called Steir
Mark, Austria and we waited for the Russians. That was as far as we were
allowed to go. I noticed it on our regimental map that was in our jeep that was
penciled in red, this is where we had to stop and we arrived there a day before
the Russians. Now the town of Steir Mark was divided by the Ens River. Now,
as I said, the town itself was divided in two parts divided by this Ens River. Now
on one side you had where people were living and on the other side of the River
is where the industrial park took place so people were going back, the Germans
and the Austrians were going back and forth while they were working and living in
that area. So we waited for the Russians to catch up with us and then we
remained occupational troops in that area, in that town for approximately thirty
days. We were on one side of the River and the Russians were on the other side
of the river. We really did not trust them too much nor did they trust us because
the bridge that crossed the river was heavily dynamited on our side. We did not
use it but it was all set to use if the Russians decided they wanted to come over.
S: Why did not the Americans trust the Russians?
K: Well, we just felt that we were still, even though we were allies, we were not
friendly allies. The trust was not there. Like we supplied them with a lot of guns
and ammunition and all kinds of things to fight the Germans with yet we would
not send any troops there. We were observing them to see if they were going to
be true allies or just allies. Now we remained as occupational troops and we
were training to go over to Japan because of course the war with Japan was still
going on so therefore we just continued to do our training and waiting for our
S: I have a questions. Were you as a soldier keeping kosher and how did you keep
kosher while you were overseas and were you observant?
K: I was observant up to a point. As a matter of fact, in the first seventeen weeks of
training I lost thirty-seven pounds. Some of it of course had to do with the
vigorous exercises that we were being put through but some of it was due to the
fact that I would not eat the food that they were giving me.
S: What about the other Jewish guys?
K: Well, there was just one other fellow and myself that were actually observant
Jews. I will not use the word orthodox because you could not be orthodox in the
army. We tried to do whatever we could, what was best that we could do with
what we had. We avoided eating any of the pork products and we were not
mixing any of the meat with any dairy. We tried to observe as much as we could.
I received some packages from home but they were not sufficient. Also, as the
chaplain's assistant I received some food from him and some when we took our
basic training which was in Camp Blanding, once in a while I was able to get into
Jacksonville and there I would be invited to a kosher meal at one of the, where I
used to go to the center there for the services. I would come in on a weekend
and sometimes I would pinch hit for our chaplain conducting services. So I was
always invited to have a meal in there and I think we also had a passover seder
S: What year was that?
K: This was back in 1944 because I was inducted January 16, 1944 and two weeks
later I was sent to Camp Blanding which is not far from Jacksonville.
S: All right, was that where you got your initial training? K: Yes, I took my basic
training in Camp Blanding and then continued from there after I finished my
seventeen weeks of training we had a, ours was a communication company but
by the same token we were also being trained as rifle men because at that
particular point they needed a lot of rifle men in the army to be sent overseas.
However, those that had a high aptitude for various things that were open at the
time were sent to the various schools like I was sent to the advanced training to
the infantry school at Fort Benning for advanced training in radio and
communications and I remained there for thirteen weeks and when I arrived there
I immediately took over as a student company commander which I received a
letter of commendation after I finished my work. I was in charge of 210 fellows
conducting them to classes and making sure they attended their classes and also
the roll calls and so forth and making sure that everybody did their job and did
not goof off because we did not even know that we were in the army other than
the fact that we wore fatigues or an army uniform.
S: But it was war time.
K: It was war time and we were going there for a purpose. To learn to become
radio operators and most of us did wind up as such. Right after that I finally got
my furlough. I came home and spend whatever time I had off and my orders
were to return to Fort Benning. Had I known that I might have planned
something else but since I did not know where I was being sent I took my leave
and went home and joined my family there.
S: Now you are talking about back in Jersey?
K: No, when I went into the army we had to give up our apartment and my wife,
Shirley, and Michael who was born on October 4, 1941, they went to live with her
folks in New York at 53 Market Street, I believe that is where they lived at the
time. Anyhow, when I came back to Camp Blanding I joined the 66th Infantry
Division which was being reactivated and I joined them in Sand Hill which is
another part of Fort Benning and there we continued to have our training and
different problems that came up we took care of and then finally in January we
were sent overseas and arrived at Le Harve on January 16, no, it was not
January 16, it was the first part of January. Anyhow, getting back to the fact that
we were occupational troops, we remained in Austria as I said for thirty days and
then we were sent to a town called Dillingen, Germany which was right on the
Danube River which flowed right through the town. We remained there for four
months after which we were sent to a beautiful city called Garmish which is a ski
center of Germany. It is near Switzerland, it was a recreational center, a lot of
things were going on in that town but before going there, after we arrived in the
town of Dillingen, as I mentioned before, we remained there for four months, I
was put in charge of the non-commissioned officers club. We opened up the
club and the purpose of the club was to entertain the non-commissioned officers
of our particular regiment, to keep them occupied in the evenings. During the
day they had things to do but in the evenings they were waiting they were waiting
to be shipped back to the states because by now the war with Japan was over
with and we were just waiting around and in order to prevent outbreaks of fighting
between the Americans and the Germans, and some of it did go on right after the
war for some reason or another, so the colonel decided that we should have a
non-commissioned officers club so that the men could go there in the evenings
so that they could have something to do, something to look forward to.
S: Did you have any direct contact with the Germans at all? Did you have any
incidents that you can remember?
K: Well the only contact I had was with a German officer and I relieve him of a
beautiful pistol that he had. Other than that, yes, I had some contact with some
of the prisoners that we picked up, German prisoners and since I had a
smattering of German, I conversed with them in such a manner that I could
understand them and they could understand me. Then the people that I had
working for me at the non-commissioned officers club, we had taken over what is
known as a gasthaus, it is a small, little tavern and some of them benches and
chairs, wooden benches and wooden seats, wooden tables and above it they
have rooms where they rent out so you could have some food there, you could
eat there and then of course you wanted to spend the night and this is of course,
I am talking about in peace time. So we went into this place and I met with the
owners, a man and his wife and he had several daughters and a son and I told
him that we wanted to take this place over and make a club out of it. Well they
resented the fact until I explained to them that I would be putting them on our
payroll, we would be paying them and that we would be very happy that we were
there because we could do things for them that they could not possible do. Like
for instance they never had screens. During the summertime they opened up the
window and the place would fill up with flies. They did not even know what a
screen was. So we went out and got some screens made and put them on those
windows. Now the father was a butcher from way back with this long, big
mustache, you know, short, dumpy fellow, and of course his wife was a
housewife and I told him that they would be on our payroll and I would hire two of
the daughters, there were three daughters, yes, two of the daughters because
the third one was already married but the two single daughters, I would ;hire
them to work in the club, to serve the G.I.s that were coming in. We would serve
beer, we had cokes, we also had liquor. The liquor we received was from the
army. It was fifty per cent of the officers rations that were allotted to the
non-commissioned officers and those bottles I used to sort of dish them out to
the members and they would get about four drinks per month, that is of the
S: Only four drinks a month?
K: Well, we had maybe about thirty bottles and I would multiply thirty times
twenty-five and then divide it by the amount of members that we had. Now there
were some members that did not drink liquor so we had some extras. But yes,
all we had was four a month. What I used to do, I was very friendly with the
M.P.s and through them I was able to make contact with somebody where I was
able to purchase German Schnapps that they started to make and consequently
we had enough to go around and the fellows were pretty happy. Now, the
purpose as I said of the club was to entertain and to keep the members occupied
during the evening and then what I used to do, I would go out and I would buy
from the different farmers, I would go with the father, put him in the jeep, the
M.P.s would supply us with a jeep and we would go to the various farms and we
would buy a cow or we would buy geese or we would buy chickens. Whatever
they had overage and I would pay them a fair price for it and since he was a
butcher we came back and he would prepare them and so whereas during the
S: So they served meals there too?
K: Well, yes and no. During the week we did not elaborate. We used to serve
cheese and we would have pretzels, you know, whatever little goodies I would be
able to give them so that when they had their beer they had something to go with
it and the reason for it was that we used to eat at four o'clock and when it came
six or seven o'clock, now you are talking about guys that were pretty young
fellows and that had pretty good appetites and so at seven o'clock or eight
o'clock they were hungry so I supplemented their dinner you might say. Every
now and then I would give them a treat. I would have something made up, I
would have the father made up something for them but on Saturday night we had
a free buffet and we would have all kinds of goodies for the men. They never
used to eat Saturday night chow, they always used to ask me, Joe, what are you
serving tonight and I would always tell them to come on over, we have chopped
liver, we have all kinds of goodies. Of course the mother used to bake the bread
for me, then I found a fellow that made pretzels for me. We had standing room
only at the club every day and it was just a real nice thing. It was something I
enjoyed doing and of course the men really appreciated it. As a matter of fact,
when I left to come back to the United States in the end of November of 1945,
they gave me a surprise luncheon. The fellows had gone out and they had killed
some deer and we had some venison steak but I was so choked up that I just
could not eat any of it. I just nibbled around there, but there they were, the whole
bunch, my outfit, all the non-commissioned officers and it was just a sight to
S: Did you ever keep in contact with this family?
K: No. There was one fellow that joined me after I opened up the second night club
in Garmish, my friend the Sergeant-Major decided that I need an assistant, that I
was working too hard. I was not but he thought when we arrived in Garmish,
their third army had it headquartered for recreation and relief for all of the
non-commissioned officers and so he felt that we could expand our operation
and therefore I could use an assistant and I welcomed him. This fellow, I found
out, was in the night club business in Chicago before he joined the army. We
became pretty good friends. As a matter of fact, I wrote to him several times and
he answered me and then we lost contact because I had to earn a living. I left
New York, when I got back after I was out of the army which was on January 16,
1946, we decided that I was going to come down to Miami to live.
S: Who was there and how did you make this decision to make a move like that?
K: Well, while I was overseas, Shirley wrote and told me that Michael had a nasal
condition and that the doctor suggested that we move to a warmer climate--either
California or Florida. In the meantime, my brother Jack went to move to Miami
and went into the liquor business with his two brother-in-laws and he wrote and
asked me if I would care to join them and they were going to open a bar next to
the liquor store and would I come down and manage it as a fourth partner. Well,
that kind of helped me decide where we wanted to go. So I got out of the army. I
was discharged in January 16, 1946 and by the middle of February I was on my
way down to Miami. When I got here of course I had to look around for an
apartment and they were not easy to come by. In the meantime I was living with
Jack and Annette and then Shirley came down around the first of March of 1946.
And then we finally found an apartment from this Buddy and Lil Rowhan, they
had a duplex. They lived on one side and they were looking for a young couple,
a Jewish couple with a child and it just was perfect for us and of course we
remained fast friends. Till this day we are the closest of friends, Buddy and Lil.
Let us see, that brings me up to--let us go back a little bit. I began working for
my brother-in-law, Sam Harris, in 1934 and as I said his men's store which was
located in down town Jersey City was originally opened by his father and after
our marriage in 1934, I was married in Brooklyn, we moved to Jersey City and
lived in Jersey City at 1991 Hudson Boulevard until I was inducted into the army
on January 16, 1944. My son Michael was born October 4, 1941 in the
Marguerite Hague Hospital in Jersey City. This hospital was named after the
mayor, Frank Hague's, mother and it was, at that time, back in 1941 it was well
known as a most up to date hospital in the area. Michael was born just two
months prior to the United States going into the war and our son Ricky was born
on February 24, 1947 in Miami. He is a native Miamian. Now in 1948 my
parents decided they wanted to move to Israel. It was my mother's dream many,
many years ago that they should move to Israel and spend their last few years
there so back in 1948 they went to Israel to live in Tel-Aviv. The war was still
going on. As you remember, the war ended in 1948 but the war was still going
on after they arrived there.
S: How did they get over there if the war was on?
K: Well, they managed somehow. They managed to get there. So my parents
moved to Israel in 1948 and as I said before, they moved and they lived in
Tel-Aviv and they were a little lonesome, they wanted the children to visit them
so I was elected to make the first trip so in July 1951 I made the trip there to visit
with them and spent about a week or so with them. After that of course, every
one of the children I guess made a trip to see them and so forth. I went to Israel
again in 1972 with Shirley and I visited my father's grave because he was buried
in Bnei Barak.
S: When did he pass away?
K: My father passed away in 1962 and my mother remained there for one more year
and then decided to come back and in 1963 she came back to live with my sister
Frieda in Brooklyn who was then living on Montgomery Street in Brooklyn, 245
Montgomery Street in Brooklyn. Them my mother came down to Miami in
December of 1973 and she spent some time with us on the beach and she also
was there when my son Michael was first married. He was married in December
of 1973. Now my mother passed away in December of 1981 and my brother Bill
who had promised her --
S: At what age?
K: At age 101. My brother Bill had promised her while she was alive that in the
event that she died that he would take her body over. Well, it turned out that he
S: Wait a minute. Take her body over where?
K: Back to Israel to have her buried next to my father in Bnei Barak. He
approached me and he said Joe, I would appreciate it if you would go with her
with the body because I cannot make it, I am tied up, things have come up that I
just cannot. It is a good time for you, you have the time off and so I said sure,
fine. I will never forget that trip because I left late at night and I got to Israel
almost with the sun going down and we have to bury the body before the sun
goes down. They were several rabbis waiting for me at the airport and then I
finally joined them and the first thing we did was go to the shiva where my mother
helped finance over the years and that was the Slabucky Shiva located in Bnei
Barak. The city of Bnei Barak is one of the most holiest cities we have in Israel
outside of this one area in Jerusalum, Mejarim which is also very, very orthodox
but in Bnei Barak they say that it is even more orthodox.
K: Because you have quite a few Yeshivas there, higher learning for Jewish
students and the type of people that live there are just of that nature, they are
ultra, ultra orthodox--not fanatics but ultra, ultra orthodox.
S: Where they Hasidim?
K: Well, they are considered Hasidim. They are beyond that because they are
S: Is this of the very learned group?
K: Yes, this is the ultra, ultra studious group whereas you have a different element
in Jerusalum. I hate to say this but they are fanatics there and they just do not
know how to cope with situations when they arise. They will not fight for Israel.
They claim that Israel does not belong to the Jewish people yet until the Messiah
comes. Until such time they will not take up arms. They never have, they have
not participated in any of the wars that have come up since Israel has become a
state whereas in Bnei Barak some of them have been called to arms and they
have participated. So I took my mother's body back and we came to the Yeshiva
and they opened up their three entrances and they opened up all three entrances
and all of the children from maybe age four or five to in their twenties came out
and they followed the procession for several blocks and since the time was
running short, we closed the burial wagon and they returned back to Yeshiva and
we continued on to the cemetery.
S: Was this on a Friday?
K: No, no, no. It was not on a Friday, it was during the week but you cannot hold
the burial after sun down and the sun was starting to set. Do not forget, this was
in the winter time in December and it is cold there I might add because that is
one thing I will never forget about that trip because I thought I had warn enough
clothes but I did not. Anyhow, we went to the cemetery and the older boys from
the Yeshiva came with the procession and they are the ones that carried her
body down to the grave which they had dug that morning and they took care of
the burial. It was quite a sight to see. The rabbis were there. And then I left
from there and the head rabbi from the Yeshiva had already arranged a place for
me to spend the night although I had to get up like four o'clock in the morning to
go back to the airport to catch the flight back. I got into this, it was like a hotel,
more like a boarding house really and I had a bite to eat there and then I went to
my room. They had these old fashioned radiators and I turned it up and there
was a little bit of heat that came up but the room was so cold it never did get
warm and I slept with my clothes and I still could not keep warm, I could not
warm up. When I finally got up I had this taxi cab waiting for me. I went back to
the airport, came back to New York and there I hit a storm and I got out of that
airport and I could hardly breath, I mean the wind was coming at me so full force
and here I am coming from Florida where the weather was quite warm. Shirley
was with me so we spent the night there and then I came back to Miami.
S: Wait a minute, Shirley was with you where?
K: In New York, no, she did not go to Israel with me but she was staying with her
brother and sister-in-law so they met me at the airport and I think we spent the
night at their house and the following day, oh, and I say my sisters, Minnie and
Frieda, and I saw my brother Bill and I told them all about the funeral and then
the following morning I left to go back to Miami so I could sit shiva there at my
place rather than at Frieda's in Brooklyn. I just did not want to do that. Since
that time of course I went back to Israel in 1972 with my wife, I think I mentioned
that and then I with my son Michael, Ricky could not make it. My son Michael
went with me and my brother-in-law, Morris Levine, he joined us. And then just
recently again in 1987, in August of 1987 I again made a trip to Israel and I am
ready to make another one. It is just a beautiful country and I love every part of
it. So now if there are any other questions, I think
S: Do you want to talk about what you did in business when you got to Miami? You
talked about the liquor store.
K: Oh, yes, yes. Okay, I started working for my brother Jack in the liquor business
and I took care of the bar. I was the manager of the bar so to speak and the bar
was open from seven in the morning till one o'clock, I believe, during the week
and till two o'clock on Saturday night. So I had the afternoon shift. I used to
come in around one o'clock and I would get everything set for the evening and
then I would run home around five o'clock for a bite to eat or six o'clock and I
would come back and I would take over for the evening trade. Now the liquor
store was open until eight o'clock. They had to close at eight o'clock and that is
when the bar business started to pick up a little bit. Although I was selling beer
during the day but then the liquor, whatever liquor business we sold, we did after
the bars closed. And I would come home around two o'clock after I would close
up and I was quite tired, you know, put in a lot of hours and I never saw my
family really because I went to sleep and I got up about eleven o'clock, had
something to eat and I was ready to go back to work. I worked six and a half
days a week. On Sunday the bar was open from one to seven. So I had Sunday
evening to go out if I wanted to go out. Finally, after about five or six months of
that I said that is not for me and I packed it in. In the meantime I was looking
around in our area. There was a fellow that was building some stores and I
noticed that there was not a dry cleaning store anywhere in our neighborhood. I
decided that would be a good place for a dry cleaning store. So I went to this
landlord and I was able to get a lease on one of the stores and we opened up a
beautiful dry cleaning store. Now we did not do the cleaning there, we just did
the pressing. We had a pressing machine in the back and I had a tailor that I
rented out some space for in the front of the store so we had a nice little business
going for us. I had a girl working for me that took in the work and I went out on
the route and opened up customers, picking up business here and there and
bringing business in. It went along very nicely and I said well, gee, this looks like
the thing for me to do and I decided I wanted to open about ten of those stores
and then perhaps just supervise, put good help in there and then supervise over
the stores. So this same builder put some stores up about seven or eight blocks
up the avenue from me and he came to me and asked me would I be interested
in opening up another store. So I took a lease there and not long after that he
came to me, he says Joe, he says, I have somebody that would like to buy your
lease for $1,000, are you interested? I said who wants to buy it. He says well
somebody wants to put in a dry cleaning store. I said oh, no. I said if it is good
enough for him it is good enough for me. That was my first mistake. My second
mistake was not being able to get the right kind of help because every now and
then I would have to leave my store or the route and I would have to go and
spend time in that store because for some reason or another the girl did not show
up and it was driving me up a tree because this was shattering my dream
because this is what I wanted. I wanted to open up these stores patterned the
same way as my first store with a beautiful front opening there and the fixtures
and so forth and it reached a point that I got so disgusted that I did have one girl
that worked for me for about three or four months and then she left and went
back up north. After that I just was unable to get good help. It reached a point
that I finally gave up and I could not even sell the store, I just gave it up. The
second store I did manage to sell but I did not sell it at that time because I was
still making a good living out of it. Now in the course of my opening up different
accounts, customers on the road, one of my customers was a manufacturer of
ladies swimsuits and he used to bother me every time I would come over to pick
up a suit, a pair of pants or something he would say Joe, why do not you come to
work for me and I would say no, I am not interested. This went on and on and
on. I says he, what makes you think I could do well for well. He says I can tell, I
can just tell by looking at you that you would make a terrific salesman. Well, it
just dawned on me that maybe that is where I should be going, in that direction
and so I finally decided that this is what I am going to do and of course I talked it
over with Aunt Shirley and she said certainly, if this is what you want to do, go
ahead. So okay, I threw all caution to the wind and I told him okay, when would
you like me to start. So he gave me a date and I put my store up for sale and I
sold it. I took quite a beating but I had to get out of business and so then I went
to work for Mr. Rubin of Murial Sportswear of Miami. It was not an advertised
line it was just one of these fringe lines and when I started out I had just the state
of Florida but then I realized that after traveling the state of Florida there was
nothing else I could do, just have to wait around until the merchandise hit the
stores and they started selling it before I could go see them again. And so one
day I was up in Pensacola and I had a map of the eastern part of the United
States and I took a look and saw Mobile, Alabama was just a stone's throw, sixty
miles away or whatever. So I called him to find out if I could go in to Alabama.
He said certainly, any place you want to go, it is yours. And so from that one
state I would up with seven states. I went into Mississippi, I went North and
South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama and Florida and Tennessee. I did go up to
Memphis. It was hard work. I started out, sometimes I would be gone for six
weeks before I was able to come home, sometimes eight weeks, it was really
rough and even long than that. One time I made a trip, I just could not afford to
come home. I worked at this for ten years and I started to accumulate a little
money and I decided I am going to go into business for myself or with somebody
and then an opportunity came along in 1955 and I bought into a sportswear
business called Summer Fun Togs of Miami and I was in that from 1955 to 1958.
We had a very cold winter in 1958 and that just about threw us out of business.
We were under capitalized and we just could not afford to go on, at least I could
not. I could not live from hand to mouth and I did not know where my next dollar
was coming from so I finally told my partners that I want out and they said, it is up
to you, Joe and I did. I went out and I got a job working for a man from Dallas,
Texas, Ike Clark, a very nice man. I worked for him for three years until 1961 at
which time I made contact with Mr. Jack Healey, the sales manager of Calder,
California and I started to work for them and I was with them in south Florida and
that was all the territory I had. I was able to see my family, I was home every
weekend, my traveling was not that extensive because all I covered was from
Miami up to Titusville on the east coast. Okay, now in 1971 I went to work for
Serina and I worked for them until 1984 at which time they retired me and I have
been retired since 1984 and this is now 1989 and if you have noticed, I got
married July 30, 1939, we just celebrated our golden wedding anniversary.
[End of the interview.]