Interviewee: Mrs. Frank Maloney
Interviewer: Sid Johnston
Date: February 5, 1986
Lucille Maloney begins her interview describing her youth in southern Idaho
during the 1920s. She then moves on to tell of her late husband, Frank, and his youth.
She details his educations, and their courtship.
The bulk of the interview covers Frank Maloney's career as a law professor at the
Unviersity of Florida, culminating with his term as dean. The early years were difficult
for Lucille because of her pregnancy and their spartan accommodations upon arrival.
But Frank loved teaching, primarily Tort and Evironmental Law. He was quickly
recruited to bring in new faculty. Upon becoming dean, Frank strove to upgrade the
curriculum, according to Lucille. He also pioneered building the new law school.
Lucille explains that Frank found most disturbing the Vietnam war protests. After his
tour as dean, Frank returned to the faculty and gained prominence in Environmental
Law. Lucille concludes the interview stressing that she is still part of the law family.
J: I am Sid Johnston and I am interviewing today with Lucille Maloney. It is
September 5, and we are at her home on the patio in her beautiful back yard at
1823 N.W. Tenth Avenue. Lucille, let me begin by asking you a little bit about
your family background and where you were born and raised?
M: Well, I always think of my father as a pioneer. I was born in Twin Falls, Idaho, at
the time that they were building the big dams. Idaho Power was erecting on the
Snake River for the power plants up and down the state of Idaho. My father's
family was originally from the Boston area, and my mother's family came from
Virginia. My father found that after the first World War he needed a job, and
Union Pacific hired him to build depots from Omaha west to the Pacific. When
he reached Idaho, he thought this was "God's country," and he liked the hunting
and the fishing; to him, it was just perfect. He started building homes, which
were the first homes in Twin Falls, Idaho. They were substantial homes that
J: What year were you born?
J: He was a pioneer in the far west then.
M: He was for that area. They were just putting water and electricity in the big
valley where the potatoes and onions were to grow.
J: What did your mother do for a living?
M: She was not really a housewife. She taught music, and she had her degree
from Topeka, Kansas Conservatory of Music. She also taught in Pueblo,
Colorado before she was married, where she taught piano.
J: How many brothers and sisters?
M: I had one sister, five years younger.
J: Where did you go to school; primary, secondary, and into college?
M: Oh, we lived in different places because the Depression came along, and it was
hard for my father. I lived mostly in southern Idaho; Twin Falls, Idaho Falls
(where they now have the atomic energy plant), and Pocatello. I went to school
at Idaho State and then went on to the University of Washington.
J: When did you graduate from the University of Washington?
M: I never graduated. I left with one more semester to go. But back in those days
you could get a teaching certificate, so I would teach in the winter and try to go
back in the summer to pick up, until I had my final degree. Instead I married
Frank Maloney. [Frank T. Maloney, Dean, University of Florida College of Law,
J: What is your maiden name?
M: Tinker, like Grant Tinker on NBC who just resigned.
J: When did you meet Frank?
M: I met Frank at the University of Washington in Seattle.
J: What year was that?
M: It was the year of Pearl Harbor, 1941. I met him before Pearl Harbor during that
summer. He was in law school.
J: You were finishing a program.
M: I was starting pre-med then.
J: You were beginning pre-med. How did you all meet?
M: I went with some friends from the house to a dance, and he was with a group of
fraternity fellows. It was a mixer dance and I was pinned to an SAE, so I had an
SAE pin on. He thought it was his fraternity because his fraternity pin was very
similar. That is why he spoke to me.
J: Give me a little bit of background about Frank, where he was born and raised;
and his parents.
M: His father lived in Canada, but his mother's family came from Detroit. They were
one of the early builders of Detroit. The family's name was Barium and they built
the first skyscraper in Detroit. Frank's other grandfather, Charles Bielman, was
chairman of the White Starline on the Great Lakes and a prominent citizen in
Detroit, as well as his grandfather John Barium on his mother's side. His mother
graduated from St. Mary's Academy Grosse Pointe. I do not know how she met
Frank Maloney. He had a large business in wholesale coal up and down the
Great Lakes for the steel mills. They were married and lived in Canada. When
Frank was born they came back on the other side of Niagra Falls to the States to
be sure that he was born in the United States, but he spent his early life in
Canada. His mother died at birth, though.
J: What year was he born?
J: How many siblings did he have?
J: He was the first child and his mother passed away in childbirth?
M: Yes, his father remarried later but Frank stayed with his grandmother in Detroit
for his first five years, and then his father took him back to Canada. His father
remarried, and he was placed in military academies until he graduated.
J: What were some of the academies where he was educated?
M: One of them was torn down. I remember he went back to see it and was so
upset that they demolished it for taxes.
J: Was that in the United States?
M: No, this is all in Canada. He graduated from the University of Toronto. His first
degree was in philosophy, and then he went back for his master's degree in
chemistry. After his father died he decided he wanted a law degree.
J: Do you have a sense of why he went to college after graduating from the military
M: The military academy was really what we would call a prep school. Of course,
he wanted to go to college. He loved school. He was sixteen when he entered
J: At the University of Toronto?
J: What year did he graduate from Toronto?
M: That I do not remember.
J: Would it have been four years later?
M: No, three years later.
J: So, he graudated from the University of Toronto when he was nineteen years old.
J: So he would have graduated in 1937.
M: I am not even sure that it was a full three years. It was called St. Michael's
College. In Toronto your universities are divided into colleges as in Oxford and
Cambridge in England. He was in St. Michael's College, which is a Catholic
college. Actually he was not a practicing Catholic until after he went to school
there. He never had the experience of having a religious upbringing.
J: How did he pay for the military academy and college?
M: His father was wealthy.
J: What did his father do?
M: He was a wholesale dealer of coal up and down the Great Lakes.
J: On the Starline.
M: No, that was his grandfather, Charles Bielman. His father's name was Frank
Edward Maloney. He was the second and Frank was the third. Actually, his
grandfather, Frank Maloney, emigrated from Ireland and started this business.
He had five sons and when his sons reached a certain age, he gave part of his
business to a son. Frank's father did very well with his share of the business.
He would go to the coalfields and buy up the quantities of coal. It was quite a
big business, putting it on barges up and down the Great Lakes and making the
contracts with the big steel mills.
J: Did Frank not want to follow in his father's footsteps in that business?
M: I do not think it ever occurred to him. His father wanted him to be a scientist,
which he did not. He did very well in chemistry, but he did not like it. He
wished to be outdoors with people.
J: So Frank graduated from the University of Toronto at age nineteen. What did he
M: He got a master's in chemistry.
J: At Toronto?
M: Yes, and then he entered a law school in Canada and found that he was not
eligible to be there according to Canadian laws at that time. He was not a
Canadian citizen. After one semester they told him he had to leave. Not only
was he forbidden to take the exams there, he could not attend or audit classes.
At this time his father had died. His father had land in south Florida. Frank was
planning to go to Harvard or Michigan, but after talking to the attorneys in Florida
dealing with his father's estate, he decided to attend the University of Florida law
J: Do you know when Frank's father had purchased that property?
M: Well, it was back during the boom years in Miami. This land was on what they
called Little River, it goes into Key Biscayne, near the 79th street causeway to
Miami Beach. At that time it was a fine piece of property.
J: Today it is a rather expensive piece of property. (Not so-run down.)
M: They also had property in Coral Gables, and some in Hollywood.
J: So, Frank became interested in attending law school at Florida because of
his father's ownership of property.
M: Also he found he loved Florida, partly I think because his father and his
stepmother never let him come down much, and when he did come down once in
awhile, he immediately fell in love with Florida.
J: Did Frank Maloney, Jr. and Frank's stepmother have any children?
J: So Frank was an only child all of his life?
M: Yes, definitely.
J: He came to Florida in what year then?
M: Oh, what year would that be?
J: It took him one year to do his master's at Toronto?
M: I am not sure just how long he was in that program to tell you the truth. I know
he did it. How long it took I do not know.
J: It took him three years to graduate from law school here.
M: When I met him he was twenty-three, so he must have been twenty when he
entered law school. When we met, it was his last year of law school. So, he
would have been nineteen or twenty when he started here, probably twenty.
That I just do not remember. I know when I met him in 1941, he was
J: And he was just finishing law school.
M: That was his last year of law school, yes. Actually, he had one more semester
J: Now, you met him at the University of Washington, but he was still in law school
at the time.
M: In Florida, law school did not continue through the summers. They closed down.
The summer before the one we are discussing, he attended the University of
Colorado at Boulder for the summer. He wanted to climb mountains and he
became a member of the Rocky Mountain Climbing Association. Then the next
summer he decided he would like to see the northwest, with the Olympic
Peninsula and the rain forest, so he went to the University of Washington.
J: And you were in your last semester of pre-med.
M: No, I was just starting pre-med at that time.
J: You had just finished your first two years.
M: I was in the last part of my fourth year of college.
J: Frank attended summer school at the University of Washington law school and
then he returned to Florida.
M: The next semester.
J: That would have been the fall of 1941?
J: Pearl Harbor was in December?
M: Yes. He was attending school in the summers because he knew the war was
coming. It already was in Europe. He had applied to all the branches of the
military service trying to enter some branch by the time he graduated. Because
of his eyesight and he was very thin at the time, and also with his Canadian
education, they kept turning him down.
J: So he began law school here in 1939 and in December of 1941 with Pearl
Harbor, did he enlist or volunteer?
M: No, he was drafted finally. After graduating at the end of the semester in
February 1942, he entered the law firm of Lazonby, Jordan and Dell? He
worked there until he was finally drafted. He had applied to every branch of the
service in the past and was turned down. Then he suddenly was drafted.
J: Do you remember the month in 1942 when he was drafted?
M: Well, he received his notice in the late spring of 1942. He came out to see me
at that time. A group of us went up to Sun Valley in Idaho. My home was near
there, and I was teaching school close by. He received his draft notice but did
not report until the early fall. After coming out to visit me, he went back to
Detroit to see his grandmother and put his car on blocks right next to his
grandmother's old electric car. It was odd to see the two cars in the garage.
Then he decided to hike the Appalachian Trail. He ended up down in this area
for his draft duty.
J: He had a full six months then of activities.
M: Not quite, but he had several months in there, about from April until the fall.
J: Tell me a little bit more about yourself. Why were you teaching school in Idaho?
You had already met Frank, and were you still friends at that point?
M: We were not really engaged, not until he came out to see me before entering the
J: Then he proposed.
M: Yes. We had been writing and that sort of thing. It was two years after we met
that we were married.
J: That was in 1943.
J: And what month?
M: In February, after he finished Officers Candidate School. The minute he was
drafted he was able to get into OCS at Fort Warren, Wyoming.
J: You were teaching school, what grade?
M: Junior High science.
J: How long did that go on?
M: I taught two and a half years.
J: You began the fall of 1940 and you resigned in February of 1943 when you got
J: Where were you all married?
M: At Fort Warren, Wyoming.
J: Is that close to your folks' home?
M: Not real close. Those are wide open spaces out there.
J: Why did you all choose to be married there?
M: Well, my mother did not approve of my marrying a Catholic. I was raised
Methodist. My mother was very ill. She had been ill for a number of years, and
rather than upset her we decided to do it at the base. Frank had a second
cousin there who was a priest. It turned out when I arrived that his cousin was
shipped out and we were married in the church in Cheyenne.
J: Where was Frank drafted?
M: Camp Blanding.
J: He went to Camp Blanding.
M: Yes, for just a few weeks.
J: And from there he went where?
M: Fort Warren, Wyoming.
J: He went right to Wyoming and you all were married there.
M: Not until he finished Officers Candidate School, he wanted to be sure he had
finished and become a second lieutenant before we were married.
J: So he was a second lieutenant before you were married?
M: Yes, he was a planner. Everything went according to a plan. He did not want
to get married until he had accomplished his rank.
J: What were your plans after marriage and what did you all do?
M: Well, he was supposed to be stationed at MacDill Field in Tampa, so we went
back to his grandmother's house. I had already visited his grandmother the
summer before. I met all his family and he had come to Twin Falls to see my
family. We went to Detroit to pick up his car and remove moth balls from it.
When we reached Dayton, Ohio, it was smelling so badly we opened the doors
and the moth balls still poured out of the car. It was awful, it made you sick. As
we drove down to Florida to MacDill Field, I developed strep throat and thought I
was going to die. I was so sick and sulfa was just barely on the market then.
When we reached MacDill, he found out he was to be stationed at Fort Knox,
Kentucky. He was stationed at Godman Field there, which is the air field for Fort
Knox. At Officers Candidate School, he graduated from Quartermaster School,
but he always seemed to be assigned to the Air Corps. It was called the Air
Corps then, not the Air Force. While he was at Godman field, he was the trial
judge advocate. He did the trials and court materials. There were many trials
there after the military shipped in a black wing from Selfridge Field, Michigan.
The black air men did not appreciate being brought to Kentucky.
J: What were some of the problems? Were there fights?
M: Oh, yes, most were personal problems, too. People from the Appalachian
Mountains were asked to work on the base. This presented legal problems,
J: Where did you all go after Kentucky?
M: Frank was there a couple of years before being sent to India. First, he was
stationed in Burma to help build the Stillwell Road. The road going into China
was a way to send supplies to Chiang Kai-shek to help him try to save his army.
J: You did not go to Burma?
M: I went home to Idaho and we already had one child, our son Frank, Jr.
J: When was he born?
M: He was born the winter of 1943. As I was pregnant with a second child I
decided I wanted to go home. My mother in the meantime had died, my father
had remarried. But I still needed home: the town and the friends.
J: How did Frank feel about that?
M: Oh, it was all right, whatever I wanted was all right. He thought I would be better
in the east, and I did not know it until after he left that I was not.
J: How closely did Frank work with "Fighting Joe" Stillwell?
M: I doubt he met him. He was just a lowly second lieutenant in those days. I
remember he sent me pictures. He slept in a pup tent at the end of a runway, so
if any of those planes that were flying over the Hump (Himalayas) with gasoline
or fuel had crashed, he would have been killed. He said after awhile you
became accustomed to that noise of the planes taking off. Later he was sent to
Calcutta, doing the supplies for China, Burma, and India.
J: How long did Frank remain in the Air Corps?
M: He was a year in India. At the end of that year he became the head of the
Quartermaster Corps for China, Burma, and India-CBI Theatre.
J: What rank did he receive for that?
M: Major. He was in charge of everything from caskets to heavy artillery.
J: So he was the quartermaster for the entire CBI theater?
M: Just at the end.
J: For 1945.
M: Actually it was 1946 by then.
J: When was Frank discharged?
M: May of 1946, that is when he came back. As I was living in Idaho, he was
discharged in Salt Lake City. Then we returned to the University of Washington,
where we thought we would live. But then he received phone calls asking him to
please come to University of Florida Law College.
J: Who did he receive the phone calls from?
M: President Tigert [John J. Tigert, President, University of Florida, 1928-1947] and
Ila Pridgen [lla Roundtree Pridgen, Librarian and Secretary, University of Florida
College of Law, 1930-1954], who was the assistant to Dean Trusler [Harry R.
Trusler, Dean, University of Florida College of Law, 1915-1947].
J: Now why did he receive phone calls from them?
M: They were looking for law faculty, I guess, and Dr. Tigert knew of him, and knew
that he had done very well in law school here. There was a Monsignor
O'Mahoney, who was a friend of Dr. Tigert's, and he had recommended Frank
highly, too. He is now dead, but he later became head of the Propogation for
the Faith, and moved St. Edward's Parish in Palm Beach on the request, I
believe, of Steve O'Connell [Stephen C. O'Connell, President, University of
J: Where was O'Mahoney located?
M: In what they called Crane Hall. It was the Catholic Chapel here on campus.
J: Where was that located?
M: It is where St. Augustine Church is now, that same site.
J: It was razed later and St. Augustine was built. So Frank received a call from Ila
Pridgen and President Tigert in 1946.
M: Yes, we were at the University of Washington.
J: He was discharged in May and when would you say you got the phone call?
M: I think it was July.
J: How did they find out where you all were living?
M: That I do not know. Well, Frank kept up with Ila Pridgen. He lived in her house
while he was in law school, and they were good friends. Ila Pridgen kept law
students in her home. Quite a few stayed there from year to year. (Her husband
had been a doctor and became very ill, and she had to make some extra money).
She also was a librarian at the law school and finally an assistant to Dean
Trusler. I am sure Frank wrote to her once in awhile.
J: Had Frank lived in Mrs. Pridgen's boarding house?
J: During his entire law school stay, do you recall him talking about that, or if he had
to find different apartments around town?
M: I do not know how long he stayed there. I remember some of the law students
asked him to join a fraternity, which he did, but I know he did not live in a
fraternity, only in her house.
J: Did he join a fraternity?
M: Yes. They did not have fraternities at Toronto.
J: What fraternity did he belong to?
M: Pi Kappa Phi.
J: You all got the call in July of 1946, what happened next?
M: Well, it could have been in August. I am not sure now. The dean at the
University of Washington was a friend of Frank's and wanted him to do this
graduate work there and to be on the faculty. All the law schools needed faculty
at that point, because the vets were returning and the faculties were small
everywhere. It could have been August because we moved here in September.
We drove all the way from Seattle to Gainesville.
J: You drove.
M: My second child had died of heart trouble, but I was pregnant again. I was
expecting my third child, and had one child. He was two years old, almost three,
and we drove from Seattle here.
J: Tell me a little bit about the drive?
M: It was quite a trip. When Frank went to India I had driven from Florida to Idaho
with a child in the back seat and pregnant.
J: What kind of automobile?
M: Chrysler. We always had Chryslers. I did pick up a friend of mine in
Birmingham, Alabama, to help me drive. It was difficult because there were not
many paved and good highways. The only good highways in the United States
were the ones that were used by the military. I stopped in Cheyenne, Wyoming,
to request more gasoline stamps from the Ration Board. I was begging up until
then. They looked at me and they could see that I was pregnant and in dire
straits, so they gave me enough coupons for two years. My father could not
believe that I had enough gasoline stamps for two years and he did not have any.
J: Frank knew the dean at Washington and he also knew Dean Trusler at Florida.
J: What was the decision-making process that both of you had to go through to
make the decision?
M: I wanted to stay in Seattle, Washington. Frank, I could see, very much wanted
to come to Florida. He loved Florida, and always had evidently. He loved the
idea that you could be outside all year. I liked Seattle, but it does rain and
drizzle there. Then he said to me, "Lucille, we will just do this as a stop gap until
I find the law firm that I want to join." Earlier he had planned to enter a law firm
in Miami. One of the main members was a friend of his and had died in a plane
crash on R and R in London, England.
J: What was the name of the fellow?
M: I am trying to think of it. Hartford Vereen. His wife's name was Connie Seabold
Vereen, and she later married John Prunty [John W. Prunty, University of Florida
College of Law, class of 1933], who was a judge in Miami.
J: Vereen is the man who died on R and R.
M: There was a judge in that firm too. There were three in the firm. They had
already asked him to join the firm after the war.
J: Were they Florida graduates?
M: Yes, they were the ones that convinced him to go to the University of Florida Law
School, partly because they were the ones that were taking care of his father's
J: They were considerably older than Frank then?
M: A little bit, yes.
J: By ten years.
M: That I do not know. I do not know whether Vereen was. His wife was Connie
Seabold. The Seabolds were one of the families that helped develop Miami
during the boom. Anyway, the firm disintegrated.
J: Frank had the option of the law firm and the two law colleges. He said, let's go
to Florida, this is a stop gap. What did you do?
M: I hated it.
J: You hated it. You did not want the drive. You did not want to come here.
M: No, and I had been to Florida once when we went to MacDill Field, and I knew
what the weather was like. I felt very pregnant. That trip was not fun, and we
arrived in Gainesville and could not find a house. Mrs. Pridgen said she would
find a place for us, but she did not. She could not find one.
J: Had you and Frank talked with Dean Trusler at all during this period or had it just
been President Tigert and Ila Pridgen?
M: I do not remember. He probably did talk to Dean Trusler, too. I just happened
to remember those two phone calls.
J: Did he involve you in this process to a great degree?
M: Well, he told me that this is what he wished to do and wanted to know what I
wanted to do, but we did what he wanted to do.
J: He pretty much mandated that this was going into process.
M: Well, I wanted him to do what he thought was right for him. Actually, if you
marry a person you want them to be happy, too.
J: So he was not domineering, this is just something he wanted to do.
M: Well, probably if I had said, "I will not move," he would have stayed in Seattle.
But I did not feel that way.
J: When you all arrived in Gainesville, there was no housing available. What did
M: This is why I became so attached to the Thomas Center. It was the Hotel
Thomas then. We lived in the Hotel Thomas for a while. It was interesting, but
not our home. Frank started looking and one of the law students named Ivy
offered him his house trailer. This house trailer did not have any plumbing
facilities but we took it anyway. We purchased a house being built by a man
named Hugh Edwards. We put the house trailer on the back of the lot while the
house was being finished and lived in this house trailer. Among other
discomforts, Rattle snakes under the trailer.
J: What was the address?
M: It was called Cypress Court in those days. I think it is now Ninth Avenue.
J: And that is Northwest?
M: Yes. Not too far down from here, down aways.
J: You said that living in the Hotel Thomas was interesting.
M: Well, the people that worked there were nice. As I said, I was very pregnant.
They helped me with my son. They would take him up and down the elevator.
It was a pretty place. There was a court and a nice dining room.
J: That was the first place you stayed in Gainesville?
J: How long did you all stay there?
M: Not too long. We could not afford it. We moved to a place called Hilltop Motor
Court for a few more weeks and then the trailer.
J: At the Hotel Thomas?
M: No, finally we moved out after a few weeks there. We acquired the house trailer
just before Thanksgiving.
J: How big was this house trailer?
M: Pretty small. It had one bare light bulb from the ceiling. There was no
plumbing, no facilities. It was so hot, and I reached the point where I could not
walk anymore. My doctor called it lumbago. I found out later it was a slipped
disc. I had to lie flat and could not walk. I found a very dear friend, a person
who took my son and kept him during the day for several months. My baby did
not come until February.
J: You stayed in there a long time.
M: I sure did.
J: Who was your friend?
M: Her name is Beth Pierson, we built our two houses here together because we
J: What were Frank's first responsibilities at the law school?
M: Teaching. He used to teach Torts. Dean Trusler had been teaching Torts but
had not taught it through the war years. So, Frank suddenly had over 300
students in Torts. He had never taught Torts before, so he felt very sorry for the
students, he told me.
J: That was one class, 300 students?
J: How many of those classes would he teach?
M: Well, I do not know if it was one class. I know he had that many in Torts. I had
a feeling it was one class. He also taught a subject called Contracts. I am
trying to think of the third subject, which they no longer teach. I know it is a
subject that has changed its name, its identity.
J: Estates, Wills, Trusts?
M: No, it was Equities. But he was always very interested in Torts. I am not sure
they even teach Contracts anymore, do they?
J: I am not sure.
M: These were required subjects that he was teaching to try to help the vets through
law school and the ones that were just finishing. They were very brilliant fellows.
They wanted to get ahead fast, go as fast as they could. Frank said, "If I can
just stay a day ahead of them they are so alert and good."
J: How did he manage that?
M: Well, he tried to stay with me at night because I was scared in that house trailer
in the woods. He would work a good part of the night with that bare bulb in the
ceiling and I would try to sleep. Sometimes I read the Torts textbook. He would
pick up our son and bring him home.
J: Did you give me the address?
M: I do not remember.
J: It was in the northwest?
M: It is right down the street from here, Cypress Court. It is about four blocks from
here. We just moved on down the street. People do that sometimes. When
they build a new home they stay very close to where they were before. Do you
J: They enjoy the neighborhood.
M: There is something about it. I have noticed that.
J: What was Frank's impression after he got here in 1946 and 1947?
M: I think it was a marvelous challenge. But I also think he felt that he was not
really prepared to be as good a professor and teacher as he wanted to be. After
two years he decided to get a doctor's degree in law. He said, "I am either going
to join a law firm or if I am going to stay in teaching I need to earn the doctor's
J: Why did he feel that he needed to get the doctor's degree?
M: Probably because that was the pattern. Don't you think that was the pattern for
teachers to get a master's and a doctor's degree? It was a requirement.
J: Where did he do the Ph.D?
M: At Columbia University. He did it partly because I was not happy here either.
The climate bothered me after living in the northwest, and we moved up to the
New York area, near Englewood.
J: One year?
M: Yes, to do his doctor's degree work it took a year and a summer. He received a
teaching fellowship to underwrite it. We did not have that much money, and so
he used the fellowship.
J: Did the law school put him on administrative leave or how was that handled?
M: That I do not know. Dean Fenn [Henry A. Fenn, Dean, University of Florida
College of Law, 1948-1958] had come in by then and Dean Trusler had left. I
just do not know, they must have because he came back here. I do not
remember that part.
J: So he taught the fall of 1946 and all of 1947 and spring of 1948, and then you all
left the summer of 1948 for Columbia? Because Fenn did not arrive until fall of
M: No, it was the year of 1950 that he went to law school. It must be farther along
than I remembered. He joined the University of Florida Law School in the fall of
J: So about four years he taught here before he went to Columbia for the Ph.D.
M: He went to Columbia that summer of 1950.
J: He took the rest of 1950 and all of 1951, and you all returned in January of 1952?
M: No, we came back the fall of 1952. See, he left the summer of 1950. I did not
go. I was having another baby, my fourth. She was born in September, and he
was already at Columbia. He was starting there. So that would be the fall of
1950, the spring of 1951 and the summer of 1951 and then we came back in the
fall of 1951 and built this house.
J: Let me back up just a little bit and talk about the administration at the law school.
What about Dean Trusler?
M: Frank liked him, he always had liked him. Some of the students would sit and
imitate him, because Dean Trusler would rear back and always talk with his eyes
closed. He never lectured with his eyes opened. He always talked with his
eyes closed. Of course, you know the students picked up idiosyncrasies.
When Frank first started teaching, the law school skits were about the faculty, not
about politicians or people in the community or the United States. I remember
the first law skits where they showed "Frank" coming on the stage. The student
that portrayed him carried law books under each arm, the Torts book under one
depicting how much he relied on those textbooks. He did not realize it was that
obvious, until he saw the student do that.
J: Did you know Dean Trusler personally?
J: Did he talk with his eyes closed in an informal session?
M: Well, he a tendency to lean back a little bit at a party and do that, just a wee bit.
It was a mannerism.
J: Trusler was dean when Frank arrived?
J: Trusler retired in 1947, tell me a little bit about the retirement.
M: In what way? I know that he and Dr. Tigert did not agree on some things that
year. Trusler had been dean a long time. I knew his wife too, she was a
charming person. She was an artist, who taught in Reddick, Florida, as a school
J: She would have to drive there.
M: She would drive back and forth, and they had one daughter named Suzanne.
J: Mrs. Trusler drove to Reddick each day to teach.
M: Well, that was in the early days. By the time I knew her, I think she had quit.
She painted. There was a group of women in town that were artists together.
One was a Mrs. Benton, whose husband had been dean of engineering, and
Mrs. Trusler, and there was one named Mixon.
J: When did Mrs. Trusler pass away?
M: I do not know.
J: Was it after her husband?
M: Yes. They had a small home. A kind of Spanish-style home over on the Duck
J: Now when I talked with you, I guess about a week ago, you had mentioned that
Dean Trusler had a little bit of an argument with Tigert over law school affairs.
Can you elaborate on that at all?
M: I really do not know. I just remember hearing some of the professors talk about
it, that he had quit and that Dr. Crandall [Clifford W. Crandall, Professor,
University of Florida College of Law, 1914-1949] had been named acting dean.
J: Who were some of the professors that you had heard that from, was it TeSelle
[Clarence John TeSelle, Professor, University of Florida College of Law,
1928-1930, 1932-1958] or Jimmy Day [James Westbay Day, Professor,
University of Florida College of Law, 1930-1961]?
M: TeSelle, Crandall, Jimmy Day, Vernon Clark [Vernon Wilmont Clark, Professor,
University of Florida College of Law, 1946-1974, 1976-1977].
J: Clark was there?
M: Clark had just come, yes.
J: He knew something about this administrative problem. It may have been
money, or not enough space.
M: I have no idea what it was. I really do not. I just remember, actually the
professors were upset that it happened. Anything like this does bother one
when you are working. They were all very used to Trusler.
J: Did he just quit? Do you remember if he gave a two week or a month notice?
M: That I do not remember. All I remember is that Dr. Crandall became acting
dean. What the transition was I do not remember.
J: So you do not remember much or were not involved to any extent.
M: Well, I told you the other day, that Frank did not always tell me the details of this
sort of business. In professional ethics you do not talk about certain things. He
did not always discuss problems at the law school with me.
J: Do you have a sense of when Trusler retired? It was in 1947, but I am
wondering if it is early 1947. Frank had begun teaching here in September of
1946, had the fall of 1947 begun when Trusler quit?
M: I do not remember. I do remember that Dr. Crandall asked Frank to help him
secure new faculty. He asked Frank to go to the American Law School meeting
in January of 1948 to find faculty, which Frank did do.
J: That was the summer of 1947?
M: Well, it probably was the summer of 1947 then. I remember Frank met Bill
Macdonald [William Dickson Macdonald, Professor, University of Florida College
of Law, 1948-1984], who has been on the faculty until this year, and asked him to
come to Florida. I remember there was Bill Hunter [William Armstrong Hunter,
Professor, University of Florida College of Law, 1949-1956], whom Frank had
known from the service. There were four or five that Frank brought here at that
J: Frank was able to locate those people?
M: Yes, and Hunter and Bill Macdonald stayed on as faculty.
J: How was he able to locate these people?
M: He went to the America Law School Association and the Southeastern Law
Meeting. That first meeting could have been in January instead of in the
summer the more I think about it. These people all came that summer of 1948
J: What summer was that?
M: It had to be 1948, didn't it?
J: It could have been the summer of 1948 because I do not think Fenn arrived until
about August of 1948. So it could have been either one of those summers.
M: I do not know which one it was.
J: Did Dexter Delony [Dexter Delony, Professor, University of Florida College of
Law, 1949-1982] come in with that crowd?
M: No, he was teaching out in Colorado, in Denver. J. Hillis Miller [J. Hillis Miller,
President, University of Florida, 1948-1954] had met him somewhere out there
and asked him if he would like to join the law faculty. He came fairly soon after
that, but I do not know which year again. But I know that J. Hillis Miller asked
him to come.
J: The people that Frank helped bring in, though, were Danny Clark -
M: No, Danny was already here.
J: James Freeland [James Jackson Freeland, Professor, University of Florida
College of Law, 1957-present]?
M: No, he went to law school here, that was later.
J: Mandy Glicksberg [Mandell Glicksberg, Professor, University of Florida College
of Law, 1954-present] also went to law school here.
J: Bill Macdonald?
M: He asked Bill to come. Bill Hunter eventually died of cancer. There were
others, but I cannot recall their names right now. I just remembered the names
of the two that stayed on. There was one who was a very famous professor and
Dean named Light, I think from William and Mary that came that summer. A
delightful man, and he brought his family. It was a nice group that summer. I
remember because I had them in my home for parties.
J: Tell me a little bit about those parties. How your first party was and how this
came about to throw a party and the reasons behind those parties.
M: Well, I remember a catastrophe at one of my earlier parties. I had the Crandalls.
The Crandalls had been very nice to us and they had connections in Seattle and
Tacoma, and Dr. Crandall had liked Frank during school. Mr. TeSelle (we
always called him Mr. TeSelle) had Frank in school, and they were very nice to
us when we arrived. Jimmy and Bea Day were very kind to us, and Professor
and Mrs Dean Slagle. When my baby came they all gave me baby presents, so
I decided that I should have them all for dinner. My idea back in those days for
I made some and left them out on the counter; I did not know what the humidity
could do to a Tollhouse cookie. When I served them, the cookies all collapsed.
I remember Mrs. TeSelle being so sweet and kind about it all, and then not too
long after that she died of cancer. She was a charming woman.
J: How young was she?
M: I do not remember. She had two children that went on to law school. I think
her children were grown by then. Mr. TeSelle had a form of arthritis. He was
J: Was he using both canes?
M: Not then, no, but he did eventually. Pretty soon after that.
J: You also mentioned last Friday that some of the parties were thrown for these
professors that Frank was enticing.
M: Yes, I had them all in that summer for supper parties. We had built a patio out in
the back of our little house. We had the parties mainly outdoors. I had the
whole group in, the children and everything.
J: Would the law school pay you for these parties? Were you reimbursed?
M: Never, not even in the twelve years that Frank was dean were we ever
reimbursed. We were allowed 200 dollars a year when Frank was dean for
social things, entertaining, and of course, that did not cover it. That is one
reason I said to you that my husband decided that they needed money at the law
school and he started the beginning of the Law Center Foundation.
J: You were throwing parties for these visiting professors.
M: I entertained them. You know the wives need to be happy with what their
husbands are doing. It is also nice for the children to meet children from other
families. They all came from different parts of the United States that summer.
One family from William and Mary lived out on the lake. Frank found places for
them to live, too, before they came.
J: Is that Newman's Lake?
M: No, I think it was Santa Fe.
J: Did they also entertain?
M: Some did. I cannot quite remember the name, I think the name was Light or
J: William Weyrauch [Walter Otto Weyrauch, Professor, University of Florida
College of Law, 1957-present]?
M: That is Walter Weyrauch, he is German and Russian. He came later, much
later. I am talking about way back. But getting back to our summer visitors I
think Light later became dean of William and Mary. It was nice that two of the
ones that were visiting that summer stayed.
J: When Dean Fenn took control what were some of the changes that you saw
through what Frank told you?
M: Well, it was quite different. It had to be different. Times had changed. He
formed a real administration, sort of a business operation for the school. He had
been at Yale and required practices very similar to the Yale Law School. He
hired more faculty. I remember at that time a professor name Eugene Scoles
[Eugene F. Scoles, Professor, University of Florida College of Law, 1949-1956]
came, Dexter Delony was on board about that time. Karl Krastin [Karl Krastin,
Professor, University of Florida College of Law, 1948-1963] came during Fenn's
administration. There were a few others that came and left. Including Judge
Cornelius Smythe from New York. Bob Mautz [Robert Barbeau Mautz,
Professor, University of Florida College of Law, 1950-1967] was on board by
then as Assistant Dean. Robert Mautz, later became chancellor of our
J: Without naming names, what were some of the things that did not work out, or
circumstances that just could not be maintained?
M: Well, some of the professors left to become practitioners and did very well.
Others had personal problems that had nothing to do with the law school.
J: Keith Austin [Keith C. Austin, University of Florida College of Law, class of 1952]
I think talked about George John Miller [George John Miller, Professor, University
of Florida College of Law, 1948-1955] as a real character.
M: Oh yes, he was a real character but he was very brilliant. He was a Rhodes
Scholar. He really was a very fine man. His wife's name was Mary May. They
had two lovely children. He could have done much more with his life than he
did, but maybe he chose not to. I do not know. I remember he was the first
director of the Law Review. I remember how the school acquired the Law
Review, Frank went to Tallahassee with a group and had the Law Review
approved for the University of Florida Law School. I remember Frank did help
get the Law Review. He had to go to Tallahassee to have it approved before
they would start it. Others went, too.
J: So he had to go to the legislature and present it.
M: Yes, he and others. Then George John was the first professor to run the Law
Review. He is remembered because he successfully was in charge many years.
J: Did Frank go up with other professors?
M: I think so. I am quite sure and with students too. Frank never did things alone
always with the help of students. I think he took students with him that time,
probably, some of the top students that were interested in the Law Review. One
of them that was very interested in the Law Review (I think he was the first editor
of the Law Review), was Hal Crosby [Harold Bryan Crosby, Professor, University
of Florida College of Law, 1959-1964]. He was one of Frank's early students.
In fact, he took notes of Frank's classes and then sold them to make money. Of
course, Frank made some mistakes those first years in law school, and the next
year he would correct his mistakes, but the students said, "This is not what Hal
Crosby has in his notes, Professor Maloney." And he said, "Oh, really, well this
is the way it is."
J: What did Frank say about Hal selling his notes?
M: He did not seem to mind. Hal later became his associate dean. Hal later
became President of the University in Pensacola.
J: You said that the returning vets were brilliant, they were motivated, they wanted
to get their education and become practicing lawyers and do what they could do.
M: Well, the biggest thrust was their motivation. Sam Allgood [Sam Y. Allgood, Jr.,
University of Florida College of Law, class of 1949] was in that first class. Sam
Allgood contributes so much money and time to this law school. He was one of
the students that first year. He helped us build the patio in back of our house. I
liked him and his wife, Jo. They live down near New Port Richey now. They all
had that drive, wanting to get ahead and succeed.
J: Now, a lot of those law students I suppose were graduating in that transition
period. They were returning in 1945 through 1947 and Fenn came in in 1948,
when do you recall Fenn beginning to make changes in policy?
M: Right away.
J: He came in and implemented techniques for judging applicants that he had
learned at Yale and instituted new programs, the Legal Ethics course and the
Writing and Discourse course.
M: Frank worked in the Legal Ethics program with Henry Fenn early, and later on
Frank continued after Henry dropped out. Frank and Henry wrote much of the
materials for the classes.
J: Did Henry not want to continue it personally or did he just turn it over to Frank
and ask Frank to run with it?
M: To tell you the truth I am not really sure what happened.
J: How closely did Frank work with Henry Fenn in designing these new programs
and implementing them?
M: Like the Legal Ethics?
M: I am not sure when Frank first worked on Legal Ethics with Henry Fenn. You
asked me earlier why Frank felt he needed to get a doctor's degree, and I think
this might have been because Henry wanted all his faculty to have graduate
degrees. Gene Scoles went to Northeastern University to get his doctorate law
degree and Frank went to Columbia.
Actually, that was a good year for Frank. We were very poor, but he met
interesting people there. I told you the other day that I had a letter from the
dean of Columbia Law School, they wanted to do a memorial for Frank. He
made good friends there and good contacts that he kept through the years. The
graduate program helps one in many ways. I think Henry Fenn did want his
faculty to have advanced degrees. He expected quite a bit from them. That
was all right.
J: How well do you think Henry worked with the faculty in general?
M: Oh, I do not think that is a good question for me to answer. See, I am not faculty
and I was on board over there.
J: How did Frank talk about Henry's new programs and what the changes were as
he saw them?
M: Well, Frank came from a very strict discipline in education, from the University of
Toronto. I think Frank approved of most of it. The only thing that bothered
Frank at one time was a funny thing. Dean Fenn put in intercoms in all the
offices and in the classrooms. He used to drop in and out of classes, I think this
worried the professors especially when they felt that somebody could be listening
to private conversations in their offices. Eventually Dean Fenn removed them.
J: Did the types of courses that Frank was teaching change?
M: I do not think so.
J: Did his load increase under Henry?
M: It seems to me that Frank always had too heavy a load, more than most people,
and I never could quite figure out why, unless he asked for it.
J: How were you perceived? Or how do you think you were perceived by first, the
faculty, and then second, the faculty's wives? Being involved, entertaining and
wanting to become part of Frank's life at the law school? Now, that is my
M: Goodness, I do not know. Later, I learned most of them liked me. You know, at
that time I did not worry, I did not think about it. We used to have parties and
take our children with us. The Scoles lived a few blocks from here. We would
go over there and have dinner that night and just put our children in bed with their
children and then some nights they would come over here. We were all very
poor. We played bridge and would go to the beach together. Dick Stephens
[Richard Badenoch Stephens, Professor, University of Florida College of Law,
1949-1977] had come by then. Dick had been in a law firm in Washington, D.C.
It was a law firm with the Secretary of State. It was during the war years. He
was recommended for teaching by several men who had served in the navy with
him. One was George F. Baughman. He had developed migraine headaches,
and I had migraine headaches, and we would complain together. With the
pressures of the firm, he just decided he had to change his way of living. When
Frank was Dean Dick wished to develop a tax program, and Frank tried. I do
not think Dick ever realized how hard Frank tried through the University
administration and the Board of Regents to establish the Master's degree in
taxation. He talked to the governor and he talked to the president of the
university trying to get a tax program at the law school, and it was always turned
down because the other colleges deans were interested in promoting their
programs, too. Frank liked Dick Stephens' work especially his tax program and
J: Henry was dean for ten years, why did he step down?
M: I do not know. We were in New York at that time. Frank had been teaching at
NYU that year.
J: Why was Frank teaching at NYU?
M: Because he had been invited to teach there. He thought it would be a wonderful
experience and he liked it. It was a challenge; living in New York, and being in
the New York area was a different experience and very exhilarating. They had
good professors there.
J: So he was at Columbia in the early 1950s and then back at NYU about six years
later, 1957, 1958. In that interim he was at Florida the entire time? He did not
serve as a visiting scholar anywhere?
M: He was asked to do a program at the University of Chicago Law School and NYU
at the same time. He chose NYU because it was more what he desired to do.
J: There were building additions to the old law school, a renovation in 1948 and
then an addition in 1950, to what extent was Frank involved in that? They put a
library on the north end of the law school in 1950. Later in early 1960 he was
instrumental in the addition on the east.
M: Actually it was Henry Fenn's idea really to add wings to the law school. Henry
had started thinking and planning on this. It just happened that Frank was the
one that was responsible because Frank had became dean. It was an idea that
Henry Fenn had had.
J: Henry had constructed the library in 1950, so Frank was following that policy
during the 1960s.
M: He put the wing on yes, but it was really Henry Fenn's thinking. It was a
following through of Henry's plans.
J: Tell me about Frank's appointment and the politics behind becoming dean.
M: As I said before there were others in the faculty who wished to be dean, too, at
that time. This is true in all faculties, there is a rivalry between people and some
of the others think they would be a better dean than so and so. Then too, there
was a little problem about Frank's religion at that time, because he was a Roman
Catholic and some people objected to a Catholic being dean.
J: Were they people in the law school or people in the administration in the
university or both?
M: Both. Some of it was even out among the Florida Bar, (you know this law school
has always been influenced tremendously by it).
J: Were there some people in the Bar that -
M: That I do not know. This is something Frank did not want to talk about. He just
said if his religion really became an issue then he was going to remain a Catholic,
and he was not going to be an administrator. His religion meant that much to
J: It took precedent over being a dean.
J: Virgil Hawkins had applied I think in 1954 and George Allen applied about 1958,
and I wonder if that has any bearing on Henry Fenn's stepping down. Also there
was the Brown vs. the Topeka Board of Education in 1954, did that have an
impact on Henry?
M: I have no idea. As I said, we were away that entire year and I just do not know.
What I am telling you are things that I just remember from hearsay, really it is
hearsay. I said earlier that my husband did not sit down and discuss law school
business with me. They say that President Reagan listens to Nancy and Jimmy
Carter listened to his wife, but I am not so sure. I know I certainly did not make
any decisions for Frank Maloney. It could have been that Henry Fenn after ten
years became tired of being dean, too.
J: Sure, that is a long time. Certainly a lot of changes had come about.
M: He had accomplished wonderful things while he was Dean.
J: Why did Frank want to become dean?
M: I do not think it ever occurred to him until Dr. Reitz talked to him about it. I really
do not think it had.
J: What did Dr. Reitz talk to him about?
M: Well, again I was not there, I know he asked him if he would like to be dean at
this time. But Frank started out only as acting dean. We returned that fall and
he started as acting dean.
J: Fall of 1958.
M: I thought it was 1959.
J: Henry stepped down in 1958.
M: It had to be 1958 then.
J: But even though Frank had some resistance from people about his religion and
there were other people lobbying to become dean, had the support of J. Wayne
M: Yes, always. And some of the older faculty wanted Frank very much. Jimmy
Day was working very hard to have Frank named dean.
J: TeSelle was still around at that time. How about Hayford Enwall [Hayford
Octavius Enwall, Professor, University of Florida College of Law, 1956-1976,
1980-1982], was he supporting?
M: Hayford moved up from Miami. You know his home is Gainesville, but he had
been district attorney. Hayford always supported Frank. Was he here at that
M: Well, he was one of Frank's supporters. Jimmy Day was, too.
J: Most of the old lawyers.
J: Who were some of the other people that were wanting the appointment?
M: Oh, I do not think that is wise for me to say.
J: Frank was an acting dean until when?
M: Until that spring. He was 39 years old.
J: From the fall of 1958 until the spring of 1959.
M: Yes. Then Dr. Reitz named him full dean, or named him dean.
J: Reitz had the final word on who became dean.
M: Yes. I do not know whether he had a committee or not. These days, the
president has search committees that fill vacancies. Things were different back
then, and I do not know when that transition started. I know that Henry Fenn
named all the new faculty at the law school and no one here knew the names of
the new members until they arrived. I remember that.
J: Is that how Frank did it also?
M: No, Frank had a search committee named by the faculty to screen and interview.
He was a part of it, though.
J: Henry did pretty much everything on his own without a committee.
M: Yes, but Frank believed in working with groups.
J: And Henry, from what you remember, did not like to.
M: Of course this may have been the procedure at Yale. These are patterns that
J: What were some of the changes that Frank wanted to make? He wanted to
continue Henry's program of putting additions on.
M: Well he did do that. That was the first year actually. I have a picture here of
the ground breaking with the shovel. Frank, really, I think the main issue he
thought was important was that every student who came here must have a good
legal education--the best that they could offer at Florida. He strove to upgrade
the curriculum, which all law schools did. This was a continuing process-that
they must do the best curriculum with the best professors available and the
incentives to do well. Frank eventually began raising money for scholarships to
attract the good students who might choose some other law school. Each year
he built that program more and more until the Law Center Foundation was
J: When did he establish that?
M: I am not sure of the year, it would be between 1966 and 1969, along in those
J: It was just before.
M: Yes, he was raising money. He raised three million for the law school by
traveling the state. He was raising money for students. His biggest concern
was attracting, as I said, good students here. Because if you have good
students your school is better, and if you have good teachers your school is
better. Eventually he felt that they severely needed a new building because
there was not enough room in which to grow and to excel in Bryan Hall.
J: Frank was involved in the decision-making process to bring in George Allen, as
well as Stephen Mickle [Stephan P. Mickle, University of Florida College of Law,
class of 1970]. Do you remember any of what he talked about that went on in
the committees in talking about bringing those fellows in? The kinds of problems
the law school might be facing in the way of demonstrations or any other
M: I do not think they ever had any demonstrations over those fellows. I believe the
students accepted it and so did the faculty. I said to you earlier that Frank
helped bring Robert Farley [Robert Joseph Farley, Professor, University of
Florida College of Law, 1961-1962, 1963-1970] here, who had been dean for
many years at the University of Mississippi Law School in Oxford. Bob Farley
had lost his job in Mississippi because of the unrest there caused by his attempt
to uphold the federal law regarding integration. So he joined our faculty and was
an excellent addition to the faculty. We have had several professors come from
Mississippi: there was Ernest Jones [Ernest McClain Jones, Professor, University
of Florida College of Law, 1955-present], and Skip Williams [Winton Edwin
Williams, Professor, University of Florida College of Law, 1969-present] and Roy
Hunt [Elmer Leroy Roy Hunt, Professor, University of Florida College of Law,
1962-present], (a number of them were from there.) All of them had had Bob
Farley as a teacher. I do not think there was any unrest in the school over that.
The only unrest that I remember is the time Frank and the committee invited a
black professor for visitation. The timing was wrong, because Martin Luther
King's assassination happened at the same time and caused problems.
J: Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
M: This man was from Howard University, but he had taught at other schools, too.
The school had two that visited here, two black professors. Frank and the
committee had brought them here on visitation programs. One of them became
very frightened when Martin Luther King was assassinated. He felt he was
going to be assassinated, too. Fred Conner was vice-president of the university.
He saw that the FBI was there to protect him and everything was being done,
and Frank did too. But the man was still frightened and returned to Washington,
J: What about the other man?
M: The other man was here for just a short time.
J: That had no connection with the assassination. That was just something.
M: No, that was a different incident, different time.
J: Was this before the assassination of Martin Luther King?
M: That I do not remember. I think it was before. The faculty, the hiring committee
and Frank, felt they should integrate our faculty. Since then, the law school has
had black and women professors.
J: When do you think Frank and the hiring committee began talking about
M: About the same time that these cases came up. One of Frank's very close
friends was Tom Clark [Tom C. Clark, Associate Justice of the United States
Supreme Court, 1949-1967], who was on the Supreme Court of the United
States. I remember when Tom used to visit us, they would discuss these
problems. I think our faculty here realized they had to be with the laws of our
country. Tom Clark was often a visiting professor here.
J: Let's talk about the last addition on Bryan Hall, the old law school. Did Frank
have to travel the state to acquire funds to make that addition possible?
M: No. I do not know how that money was acquired. I have a feeling it was given
by the legislature.
J: That was not of the same proportions as Holland Center.
M: Oh, no that was just a wing.
J: Much smaller scale.
M: Yes, just a wing.
J: The Law Center Association was established between about 1967 and 1969?
M: Well, it could have been before that a little bit, I do not know. I remember Frank
would teach a few days a week. He always taught.
J: While he was dean?
M: Yes, the whole time he was dean he was teaching. This I thought was hard
sometimes because eventually we had a thousand law students here. He liked
to teach freshman students. He said it was a way you would know their thinking
and help them their first year. He liked to teach Torts. He later became head of
the Torts section of the Multi-State Bar Exam for the whole United States. When
he was in NYU he taught Torts.
To acquire a new law school building he had to convince the legislature
that the University needed it. He also needed the support of Dr. Reitz and the
administration. He also had to tour the state to raise money. I would go with
him and drive the car while he worked on papers. Sometimes our son, who was
then at Georgetown University, would go with his father. He would drive the car
while Frank did work. Frank could always work in a car. I could never
understand it; he could write, he could prepare lectures, do his correspondence,
J: What was the relationship between the Law Center Association and the new law
school building, or were they completely separate?
M: Well, Frank helped establish that Law Center Foundation in order to get money
and support to build the law school.
J: There was a very close relationship between them.
M: Yes, it all went together. I think the other important thing in Frank's mind was
the scholarship money. It was very important to have scholarships for students,
money for students who needed it.
J: When was he first establishing scholarships for the students?
M: I do not remember what year it was.
J: Would that have been soon into his administration?
M: It had been several years after he got started, I think. The first few years I
thought were a little hard for him. He had never even been an assistant dean.
He was definitely a military man as well as a teacher. He was a colonel in the
air force, so he thought along military lines. His earlier schooling was at a
military prep school. Later he could not understand the 1960s because it was
against his early education and his upbringing and his military life.
J: Do you think that had something to do with him stepping down?
J: Yes, as dean.
M: Well, I think it led to it. I know it did. Those late 1960s did lead to it. There
was a little group, not all the students, just a little group, who wanted to rewrite
the curriculum. They wanted to run the law school. They were
anti-administration. It was just like I was just reading about Dr. Pusey, [William
Webb Pusey III, president of Harvard University] the president of Harvard that
stepped down at that time. Steve O'Connell became president of the University
of Florida and he had a different approach to the students uprisings. Frank was
so upset when a group of law students marched on the president's home; these
events Frank could not quite understand. He said he was so busy building this
new law school, raising money for the foundation and the school, trying to see
that we had excellent faculty coming in, good students, his life was so full.
Everything took up so much time.
J: And then rebellious students.
M: On top of it all. Pusey at Harvard just could not understand this either. But, we
all know why it was there. Our son went to Vietnam.
J: Did you continue to entertain professors and have social engagements for the
faculty; did you have any for the students here?
M: Oh, yes. I entertained several times a year for the students' wives too. I always
had a Christmas party here for the wives of the students. In fact, one Christmas
party I sent my husband out that Sunday to put Christmas lights in the cedar tree
in the front yard. A freak wind came by which snapped the top of the tree off
and threw him twenty feet to the ground and broke his back. I took the top of
that tree and brought it in for a Christmas tree and had all the law students' wives
for a Christmas party while he was in the hospital with a broken back. He
almost did not forgive me because I brought the tree in. I always had the faculty
in for parties and dinners. Sometimes in the early days it was pot luck and
everybody brought something. Later on sometimes it was just as easy to do it
yourself. We also entertained graduates of the Law School.
J: Did Frank have any trouble, even at the time he was going to step down?
M: Yes. I have noticed since Frank was dean that the deans who have followed
him have the same problems. There is a group that is for you, and there is a
group that is against you.
J: When did Frank first talk to you about building the new law school?
M: Well, I remember him sitting here on the porch one day. I do not remember if
Mandy Glicksberg was still here or not, they had been out in the back playing
badminton. Leonard Powers [Leonard Stewart Powers, Professor, University of
Florida College of Law, 1967-1972] had become Frank's associate dean then,
and Roy Hunt was assistant dean. A group of them had been playing
badminton, and they were talking about how they just really had to do something.
Frank said they really needed a new building but he did not know whether they
could get the money to do it, or the land. It took some planning to do it. It
J: Was that before the students began to demand more control?
J: So about the time, or in a very short period between when the students began
asking for more control over the law school, construction -
M: That happened in the very late 1960s, it reached a peak in 1968 and 1969.
J: During that period in which they began to move in.
M: It came late to the law school. Yes, it was in 1969, but they were still carrying
placards of protest around when the school was dedicated. A small group did
not want Earl Warren [Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the United States Supreme
Court, 1953-1969] on campus for the Holland Law center dedication.
J: Fifty people? Did you see them?
M: I would not even say there were that many. Yes, I saw them. They had
pamphlets they distributed.
J: You knew the students personally then?
M: Yes, some of them.
J: Tell me about driving throughout the state trying to secure the funds. Was he
targeting alumni as well as the legislature?
M: He would always start with the legislature, and then he was visiting the different
law firms around the state.
J: Was this in 1965 or 1966? This was all well before the assassination.
M: Of Martin Luther King, Jr.?
M: That was about twenty years ago.
M: I thought it was twenty years this year. Oh, that was maybe John Kennedy.
Bobby Kennedy was the same year. Yes, because I remember Mike Gordon
[Michael Wallace Gordon, Professor, University of Florida College of Law,
1968-present] came about that time and Sandy and David Smith [David Thornton
Smith, Professor, University of Florida College of Law, 1968-present], wonderful
people. There were so many nice new faculty that joined the faculty about that
time. It was so good to meet them and know them. Frank would teach a few
days a week, and then we would drive to Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, or other Florida
cities to raise money. Before this, while he was doing preparatory work, he
learned that law schools were not eligible for federal money. All colleges on a
campus were eligible for federal money except law schools. He decided to have
a federal law passed to acquire money to build the law building on campus here
through federal funds. He went to Sam Gibbons [Sam Melville Gibbons,
Representative, United States Congress, 1962-present], who was a U.S.
Congressman from Tampa, and he also met with Senator Holland [Spessard L.
Holland, Governor of the State of Florida, 1941-1945], in Washington to see if
they would help get such a law passed. They wanted two schools to petition for
this, and one was the University of Florida Law School and the other was St.
Mary's College in San Antonio, Texas. The dean there was a friend of Frank's.
Sam Gibbons and especially Senator Holland, were able to have this law passed
in Congress so that we could receive federal funds as well as state funds. The
state was willing to give some money, and some of the money came from federal
funds as I understand it, and the rest of it from personal donations around the
J: How long did that process of driving to Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Pensacola,
Tallahassee go on?
M: It seems to me that it went on for about two years. Just off and on, it was not
every week. Just whenever we could find time.
J: Now, the 3 million dollars that he raised was through the Law Center
M: I am not sure exactly how that was handled. They named a group of
trustees--men who had been leaders in the Florida Bar like Chesterfield Smith
[Chesterfield Smith, University of Florida College of Law, class of 1948] and Olin
Watts [Olin E. Watts, University of Florida College of Law, class of 1928]. In
Jacksonville, Delbridge Gibbs [Delbridge L. Gibbs, University of Florida College
of Law, class of 1940] had been a past president in the Florida Bar. Walter
Humpkey, who has since died, was a leader from Miami. John Allision worked
out of Tampa.
J: Rex Ferrier?
J: Ralph Dell [Ralph C. Dell, University of Florida College of Law, class of 1945]?
M: Paine Kelly [T. Paine Kelly, Jr., University of Florida College of Law, class of
1936] came in later from Tampa. I do not believe he was in the original group.
I am trying to think, they were mostly past presidents of the Florida Bar. Well, it
will come to me later. Anyway, they assembled this first group of trustees who
helped Frank raise money. Finally he could not keep doing this himself, so their
obligation, and extended to keep raising money for the foundation. They came
from different parts of the state.
J: What was Frank's approach? Did you go into any of these meetings in which he
asked private lawyers for money?
J: So, you do not know if he was blunt about it, or if he really played a politician
about it or exactly how he got them to donate?
M: That I do not know. You would have to ask somebody that he talked to. I am
very proud of the Law Center Foundation too. The law alumni have continued to
help. It is the backbone of the college in some ways. It pays for extra salaries
that the school could not have. I remember when Frank first became dean, Hal
Crosby was his associate dean for awhile, then suddenly Hal moved on to
become Dean of University Relations. Suddenly, there was no money through
the University for another associate dean. There were always money problems.
For many years even when the school was close to 1,000 students, Frank did
not have an associate or an assistant dean. Later on, he was given those
positions. Now you look over at the law school, and think how many assistant
deans they have and all the extra resources that are now in that building. There
is a space for the Law Review, there are spaces for all kinds of programs.
J: Frank was trying to raise money for the new building not for these extra needed
M: Well, that was what the foundation was to do and it did. He also wanted to have
other positions besides teaching, programs like Legal Aid that would help
students. Legal aid, I believe James Pierce [James Robert Pierce, Professor,
University of Florida College of Law, 1968-present] was running it for awhile.
Frank also received federal money to establish the Southeastern Water
Resource Center at the law college for people needing advice regarding water
laws in the southeast. The center would handle the legal problems regarding
J: Did he implement that as dean?
M: Yes, he started that.
J: Tell me about the naming of Holland Center?
M: Oh, well I just know Frank's version of it. Frank said that they were not going to
name it; it was just going to be called the Law Center or the Law College. Then
there was a movement among certain students in 1969 to name it the Martin
Luther King Law Center. Many people in the state told him they did not want
that to happen. They had given their money to this building that was being built
and dedicated there was no connection between King and the Law School.
Frank did not think it was a wise thing either right at that particular time with the
stress and everything else. Therefore Frank felt that it should be named after
Spessard Holland who had been so instrumental in getting the federal money for
the building. He was not only a United States Senator, he had been a governor
of this state and he was a well-respected person. So he thought if they were
going to name the building, it should be Spessard Holland Law Center. Of
course, there were many people that did not like that either. There were many
people who would have liked to have the building named after them. I told him
afterwards I was not sure it was a good decision on his part to become involved
in the naming. Some did not like that building being named for somebody alive.
J: What was the process of getting the building named? Did he have to go through
M: I do not know. I told you earlier there were some things he did not discuss. He
just did them and I knew they were done.
J: The three million dollars came from the private donations, the state funds and the
M: Well, I am not sure of the fringes there. I am not sure I am really correct on the
three million. He just once said I have raised three million and I just assumed he
meant from all resources, federal, state, and private, but I am assuming. I am
J: Let me step back a little bit again and pick up a few things. When Fenn was still
dean in the mid 1950s, the requirements were increased and included, as I
understand, the use of the LSAT, the Law School Admission Test that we are still
using today. Do you remember Frank talking about raising those admission
M: Yes, that came up every year, almost every year and standards were raised. I
think even after Frank, when Dean Julin [Joseph R. Julin, Dean, University of
Florida College of Law, 1971-1980] arrived, this followed. Frank was going to be
active on the LSAT board. They meet each year to plan, but he was so busy
trying to raise money for the school that he had Dean Roy Hunt represent the
Law School on the LAST board. I think Hal Crosby did earlier and then Roy
Hunt did this. I think Dean Read [Frank T. Read, Dean, University of Florida
College of Law, 1981-present] has been on this commission lately, Frank did not
have the time right then to do this. Frank stayed fairly close to Florida. If he
had any time off he did his active duty for the Air Force. The rest of his time was
spent at the law school. I know that Dean Hunt did this for a number of years.
They felt the need to be close to this program and raise the requirements.
Students became brighter too. They had a finer education, the requirements
had to be upgraded continually. Frank, after he was dean, became head of the
Torts section of the Law Multi-State Bar Exam. More and more of the law
schools started using the Law Multi-State Bar Exam for their basis, then they
would add questions applicable for their state as a supplement. That was very
much used, too, I attended these meetings with Frank twice a year. The
headquarters was in Princeton, New Jersey.
J: The law school at one time had a diploma privilege.
M: Yes, I remember that.
J: Do you remember when that was rescinded and law students had to take the
M: I do not know what year it was. I know my husband thought it was a good idea
to rescind it.
J: Why did he think that was a good idea?
M: He thought they should take the Bar.
J: Just because you graduate from law school does not mean you are qualified to
enter the Bar?
M: Yes. I will tell you another thing, he thought it was passe, it was gone, the times
had changed. When he was trying to raise money for the new building, he
realized that all the law students who had graduated from this school should
receive a Jurisprudence Doctor of Law degree. Some Congressmen did not
accept the LI.B. law degree as a graduate degree. However, they believed the
J.D. degree was acceptable. Some of the lawyers in Florida did not want to
replace their LI.B. degree, Frank said the lawyers could hang their diplomas side
by side. Students were spending seven years of their lives in college, which
made them graduate students. Every graduate received a new diploma. The
diploma privilege had gone long before. This was another step. President
Steve O'Connell and Frank signed all these new diplomas and scheduled a
special ceremony. That was only one way of striving for money. This made
them eligible for federal money.
J: It was probably Dr. Reitz, because I think that occurred in 1965 or 1966.
M: No. I know President Steve O'Connell had signed the diplomas. It took them
awhile to be published, going through the administration and through the
J: That is right, by that time it might have been into the late 1960s.
M: I think Steve was here by then. They all laughed about it.
J: Some of the lawyers I have talked to really resented that.
M: They did resent it because they liked their LI.B. diploma, but law degrees were
changing to a J.D. all over the United States about this time. There are only a
few schools that kept the LI.B. I think Harvard did, Yale did, a few of them, but
the majority of them changed to the J.D.
J: This was a committee decision? Frank implemented the idea and it went
through the committee?
M: I do not know about that. I just do not know how it was handled. I remember it
did happen and am sure a committee was involved. I remember there were
pro's and con's as always. If you are with a group of attorneys there are always
pro's and con's.
J: At the time that Frank stepped down, Vietnam was increasingly becoming a hot
issue. Were there demonstrations on campus or the law school that you
remember him telling you about?
M: Yes, I remember the one where they marched on the grounds of President and
Mrs. O'Connell's home. Of course they were walking into his office all the time
with petitions, and as I said earlier, pamphlets, posters, marching around the
school for things they wanted.
J: Did they ever walk into Frank's office?
M: Yes, but they never took over as they did at Columbia, Harvard, or Berkeley.
J: Apparently this all cut into a lot of Frank's time.
M: Well, he thought it did. He said it was just mind boggling, really. He said, "I am
here to teach and run a teaching institution and no longer can I spend my time
doing what I am supposed to be doing."
J: He had been there better than twenty years when this happened.
M: I guess so, he began in 1947. This was about 1969.
J: I guess it did come as a shock. Did it all rise up at once?
M: It came rather fast in the undergraduates. Frank never felt that it was going to
come to the law school, he really did not. For some reason he just felt...
J: That it was more professional?
M: Right. And so he did not think it would go that far.
J: So it was not just undergraduates and graduate students flowing into the law
school, there were also law students very involved in it.
J: But it was a small minority?
M: Oh, very small, very small group.
J: Out of 1,000 people it was less than 100.
M: I would not even give it a number. I just know it was a very small group. A small
group can cause a lot of friction.
J: There is one other issue that we need to touch on and that is of integrating, not
integrating blacks, but bringing women into the system in 1947.
M: People told me Frank was a chauvinist pig once. I never thought that Frank
objected, I never heard him object, and he had quite a few women students in his
class. I think it was probably a surprise for him at the beginning with his
background. That was why the Vietnam protests were hard for him; because of
his military background, I know. There were some women that graduated and
did excellent during the years. Anne Booth [Honorable Anne C. Booth,
University of Florida College of Law, 1961] was one of them; she is in
Tallahassee now. There was Judge Susan Black of Jacksonville. He felt they
were perfectly wonderful, brilliant. They were marvelous, marvelous students.
He helped them in finding positions, I remember. When some of the students
would come to him about a job or problem, I remember that he would call around
and help them be placed. We had a placement service at the law school, but he
did some extra things I remember.
J: What role did Frank play in appointing Betty Taylor [Grace Elizabeth Taylor,
Assistant Reference and Bibliography, University of Florida College of Law,
M: He thought she was very fine; he always thought of her as an outstanding person
in her field. How much he had to do with it I do not know. I know he thoroughly
approved of it. He always said very fine things about her.
J: How did the relationship with the administration, the university administration,
change between Reitz and O'Connell? Obviously Reitz supported Frank. Did
Steve continue that kind of support for the law school?
M: I think he did. I felt that Steve and Frank did not agree as much as Dr. Reitz and
Frank did on things. But Steve was an old friend of Frank's, you know. He was
ahead of Frank in law school. He graduated from law school before Frank was
there. But through working with the Florida Bar our paths crossed quite often
and Steve became a justice of the Supreme Court of Florida. Frank and Steve
did programs together, I remember, through the Florida Bar seminars. They did
know each other. I remember having the O'Connells here for brunch and parties
when he was on the Supreme Court and they always included us in their parties
The differences were really about the Vietnam debacle. Frank had a one
idea about some of these things, and Steve O'Connell had an another. For
example, when Steve O'Connell became President, he wanted every faculty
member on campus to sign a loyalty oath, and Frank did not approve of this.
This caused trouble with the law faculty. This is not something a law faculty
person wants to do. Frank was supporting the faculty.
J: How was that resolved?
M: I think Steve O'Connell finally let it disappear. I do not know. Eventually I did
not hear about it anymore. We had one faculty member here who put a picture?
of Ho Chi Minh, [Ho Chi Minh, North Vietnamese leader, 1945-1969] poster on
J: Outside the door?
M: Yes. So Frank and the appropriate committee decided that he would not be
J: Very Marxist in its approach.
M: Yes. So he was told that he would not receive tenure, and Frank told him early
that he would not receive tenure, so if he wanted to quietly find a position
elsewhere, he could. There would be nothing against him here, he could go
ahead and start looking. When President Steve O'Connell asked for loyalty oath
signatures. This professor decided to use the President's request as a basis for
a law suit against the law school and the University of Florida.
J: Did it ever go to trial?
J: He filed suit, though?
M: It was in the newspapers.
J: It was a local thing?
M: No, he went to the American Association of Law Professors. It became a
national thing before it was over.
J: This was during Frank's tenure as dean.
M: This was at the very end, the late 1960s, too.
J: I am seeing clearer why he is stepping down. He was getting pressure from the
left and pressure from the right. I guess when Frank stepped down it was like a
breath of fresh air.
M: Well, as Frank said, he had reached the point where he had used every resource
he knew to raise money and help the school. He thought his resources had run
out, and he could not really keep enough people approving of what he was doing.
There were too many people who did not agree. He had served as dean 12
years. If you looked around the country most deans quit at this time. A lot of
university presidents also quit at this time. Frank just felt he had run out of
J: Reitz had just stepped down.
J: Was he in communication with these people around the country at Harvard and
M: Oh yes, he had friends everywhere.
J: He was talking to them about what they were doing and how they were handling
M: One of his friends later became dean at UCLA, he was in the graduate program
for doctors degrees with Frank at Columbia. He talked to him; they were having
the same problems at UCLA, they had them at Berkeley, they were even having
some at Hastings Law School in San Francisco. You know an administrator
found it hard to survive, some lawyers in the Florida Bar felt he did not handle
some of the unrest--squelch it. He was not controlling it enough. Actually, I
thought it was very small here compared to other places.
J: The amount of unrest?
M: Yes. I have looked at some of those students and watched them through the
years, they were very brilliant students, very fine students intellectually, but have
never quite found their place.
J: Even now, still unsettled?
M: Yes. Some.
J: When Frank moved the law school from the corner of Southwest Thirteenth and
University over to Holland, I have heard from some people that the tradition of
shuffling on the floor, rubbing your feet on the floor when the professor says
M: It stopped about then.
J: Do you remember him talking about that?
M: Well, I know they always shuffled. I remember they used to shuffle Frank when
he came in. It was a tribute kind of, like clapping. Yes, it did stop. There were
quite a few of the Florida Bar people that did not like the law school being moved,
either. They wanted the old building and the old traditions, you know.
J: They wanted that heritage continued.
M: Yes, so they lost that.
J: Who were some of the people who would have like to have seen more additions
on the old law school?
M: I cannot remember that.
J: How did Steve O'Connell feel about it?
M: I am not sure I ever heard him say. I remember when the building was being
built they had Law Day at the law school. A guest speaker came and there were
dinners and parties and events. For one Law Day while the building was being
built, the upstairs, though not finished, was all open and the cement floor was in.
A catered luncheon was served up there for several hundred people. I thought it
was the most fun thing to sit up there and look over at the campus, without any
walls around us. It was kind of neat. Frank was trying to educate and show
lawyers and guests what the building was going to be, what the faculty was going
to do. Of course, Frank was not too happy with the design of the school.
J: Why not?
M: Well, the governor at that time selected the architects. The architects won
national awards with it, but Frank is a traditionalist. He would have liked to have
gone back to the white pillars, the brick, the ivy, you know.
J: I still get lost over there walking around.
M: He was not sure he liked the auditorium with the sliding doors. They had to
accept the design if he wanted the building. The governor selected the
architect. Now Frank did have a committee from the law school and others, i.e.,
Newton Ebaugh who went to all the new law schools in the east to look at their
law buildings and get ideas.
This past summer I was at the University of Washington in Seattle. Their
new law school is the most horrible building [laughter]. Ours is so much superior
to theirs, really. There are some things that you might not care for, the silos on
the outside, for instance. But the Chamber of Commerce copied it, you know.
When the Chamber of Commerce built their building, they really did copy it. So
there are some pluses, and architecturally there are some minuses, too. Frank
wanted originally more than that one building (three in fact-similar to the Law
College at the University of Michigan), but they ran out of money. The
legislature did not have enough to continue helping. The administration I believe
did not want to put up more than that one building at the time. So I was so
happy to see that were finally able to build Bruton-Geer this past year because
that is what he always wanted.
J: Were there any construction problems?
M: Oh yes, mainly the cement. There were so many flaws in the cement work.
That was the biggest problem I remember.
J: Cracks in the floor and in the roofs.
M: They did not have a good contractor for the cement work, there is a lot of cement
in that building. It was rough, it was not as smooth as it should have been.
J: Would Frank go by there on the way home from school everyday?
M: Oh, he was there all the time. In fact, he had to have surgery one day and right
after the surgery his phone rang in his hospital room. The caller said they were
chopping down all the trees on the school site. He got out of bed before
anybody knew it was out there telling them they could not pull down those trees.
J: He left the hospital?
M: Yes. He had had surgery for a hernia. He went out there and he said, "You are
not going to take down these trees along Newberry here."
J: The old oaks.
M: Yes, he saved them. Well, I told you about the time he fell out of a tree and
broke his back. We had graduation that December just before Christmas, and
again he walked out of his hospital bed and appeared for graduation. I could not
believe it when I saw him come in.
J: You did not know he was coming?
M: No, the school had the Chief Justice of the Florida Supreme Court Campbell
Thornal giving the address that night. 900 people came for graduation that
year!! It was moved to the med school auditorium, and it was still too small a
room. Frank walked in but fainted. Afterwards I just could not believe that he
was so determined to be there at graduation.
J: Tell me a little bit about the brown baggers, brown bag lunches.
M: That started in 1963.
J: Bob Johnson [Robert M. Johnson, University of Florida College of Law, class of
1964] and Buddy Blain [L.M. Buddy Blain, University of Florida College of Law,
class of 1967].
M: Oh, I remember Buddy Blain and his wife Laurie. They were in a legal fraternity
with Frank. I do not know. I guess it is because they felt there was not a good
place around to eat. It was a cheap way to eat. It became a tradition.
J: Were Frank and the rest of the faculty invited to those after the students began
M: I think so. Frank used to go.
J: Did you go?
M: No. I have been invited to some the last few years. They do the cookouts now,
the hamburgers and all. I know something they started while Frank was dean
and continued after he was dean was Dean's Day on Ichetucknee. Once a year
they would have a Dean's Day on the Ichetucknee. One of his classes planned
J: Are they still doing that?
M: Well, I do not know whether they are now, but they did up until he died. They
had one every year in his name.
J: Would they float down the Ichetucknee?
M: Yes, altogether. And he thoroughly enjoyed that. He was an outdoor man.
J: And I suppose you went.
M: Yes, I went sometimes, sometimes I did not. I always felt it was more of a
school thing; I was a little out of place. I used to have Legal Ethics Classes here
in my house every two weeks. I would have sandwiches and food for them and
J: Was this while he was dean?
J: Before he was dean, as well?
M: And afterwards. They do not have Legal Ethics anymore I do not think, do they?
Other faculty also had their classes in their homes.
J: I do not know.
M: Then later, we always had his classes here too, at least once a year.
J: Would you say that went on from the mid 1950s until he retired as dean?
M: Yes. No, it went on after he was dean, we would have his classes here for
parties. Sometimes we had cookouts in the back yard.
J: Who would want to take over after Frank left with all the unrest, even though you
had a new building to deal with?
M: Well, that was nice. It is very interesting to come to a new facility. Times were
changing, too. Dean Hunt became interim dean for that year until Dean Julin
J: Where did Julin come from?
M: Michigan. He was an associate dean I think at the University of Michigan, Ann
J: How involved was Frank in that appointment process?
M: He was not involved at all.
J: Did he not want anything to do with it or he was not asked?
M: That I do not know. I know he thought very highly of Dick Julin always and when
Dick Julin had offers later to go somewhere else, Frank would get on the phone
and call friends in the Florida Bar and say we must keep Dick Julin here, give him
more money, do something. The Law Center Foundation trustees added a
stipend to his salary to keep him here.
J: Now was this primarily right after Dick was hired?
M: No, it was during the next ten years. It was a few years after he had arrived.
Frank thought he was an excellent dean and that we were very fortunate to have
J: To what extent did Frank work with Dick and the transition period?
M: I think they did quite a few things together.
J: And Roy Hunt remained involved?
M: Roy Hunt became associate dean to Dick Julin.
J: So that position, the associate dean at the law school, was first created after
M: No, Frank had an associate dean, Hal Crosby, who later became president of the
university at Pensacola. He became Dean of the University of Relations here
after he was associate dean under Frank, and then he went to Pensacola and
J: Was that Frank's only associate dean?
M: That is the only one he had for years. There was no money designated for
another one. Frank did not even have money in the budget for an assistant
dean. He kept applying for one and was refused. Later they appropriated the
money. Leonard Powers from North Carolina became his associate dean. He
was very good and Roy Hunt was named assistant dean. Those were through
the building years, the new building and the foundation. Both those men,
Leonard Powers and his wife Carmen and Roy Hunt were very, very instrumental
in entertaining and planning for the school. Leonard Powers and Carmen
sometimes would have functions on football weekends at their house so we
would not have to do it all the time. Roy Hunt would do the same thing. Roy
Hunt still does this sort of thing. Roy made good friends and good rapport with
the Florida Bar doing this and so did Leonard, but Leonard died very young of a
stroke. He was out mowing the lawn, and died while Frank was still dean. That
is when Roy became associate dean. Roy was excellent at the social level
knowing people and also aware of community affairs. And, of course, new
assistant deans were named.
J: Frank was an authority on Water Law. Was he building his Water Law
knowledge before he was dean, while he was dean and after he was dean?
M: Well, he first worked on it on a very small scale because he did not have time.
After he stepped down as dean he spent much more time on the Water law.
Each year they would receive a grant from the federal government to do
research. He liked water, so he liked Water Law. This was one of his
specialties and he worked at it. Right after he was dean, he joined the law
faculty of Vanderbilt University in Nashville for the year. The governor there had
asked him to draft a water law for the state of Tennessee. He enjoyed what he
did, he had a group of law students work with him to draft the water law for the
state and traveled to the cities of the state to present it. Then it was passed by
the Legislature. The governor named Frank a Tennessee Colonel. He went to
Texas Tech that summer as an honorary professor. Again he worked with the
water law problems of western Texas. It was different and quite fascinating. In
Florida, he worked for Governor Graham [Daniel Robert Graham, Governor of
the State of Florida, 1979-1987] and the Department of Natural Resources.
J: Did you go with him to Tennessee and Texas?
M: Yes. It was very interesting. Later Governor Graham had asked him to work
on the water laws and problems in Florida: Estero Bay, and Cape Coral. Frank
did quite a bit of water law for Florida.
J: Would you say that water law was what Frank was best known for?
M: At the time of his death, he was. He drafted a water law for the state of Hawaii.
J: Is that what he was best known for, for his Water Law?
M: He was quite well known in the American Bar for his Torts work.
J: Those were his two specialties then, the Torts and the Water Law.
M: Yes. I told you he was head of the Torts section of the Multi-State Bar Exam for
the United States.
J: What were some of the issues that he would talk with you about on Water Law,
funny stories or peculiar circumstances that they had to deal with?
M: Well, I know one of the discouraging ones was in the Naples area; Golden Gate it
was called. He told them how they could save that land and then they did not do
it. I remember that was frustrating for him. A lot of times he took students on
these trips as a work project. They would go as a field trip for several days and
work out the problems. They consulted in Melbourne and the coastal line there.
J: So he worked on all of Florida?
M: He did Water Law, the boundaries and the bottoms of lakes of Florida. When he
died he was to be a witness in a two-million dollar case against Mobil Oil for
oil-drilling off shore in the Gulf of Mexico without permission. It eventually did go
to court and Mobil Oil was fined two-million dollars, I believe.
J: He passed away while he was working on that case?
M: Yes, in part.
J: Who was the case then turned over to?
M: I have no idea.
J: Were those some of the notes that disappeared?
M: Yes. Now, the case he had for the State of Florida and Governor Graham down
on Estero Bay, Cape Coral, and that area, he had just finished that week. In
fact, we were planning to have dinner at Captiva to celebrate the finish of the
project. I never knew for sure some of the projects. He did not discuss many
cases with me. He did not discuss personalities with me, so I did not always
J: From the law school or from the government?
M: These are items I picked up from hearing discussions.
J: Tell me a little bit about when Frank died, what happened with his papers, his
M: Well, I know some people do not believe me, but I know this is true. All his
personal papers for the last eight years of his life disappeared, plus some of his
research papers. He had emptied everything out of his safe deposit box that
morning and had taken it to his office to work on them. I do not know what he
was doing. I did not even have a copy of his latest will because his copy was in
his office. The original happened to be in his office because he had emptied his
safe deposit box. I do not have business papers with his name on them for the
last eight years of his life, unless it happened to be a personal piece here at
home. His check book disappeared that day, his bills for the month disappeared
that day. We had gone around the world in 1978 and he had executed a new
will and also did a financial planning sheet of all his insurance papers, assets,
and everything so that if something happened to us the children would know what
to do. I saw that sheet before we left on our trip, so I knew he had it. I wanted
that too because it would have helped me settle his estate. As an attorney, he
had all this organized and it was gone.
J: What kind of an investigation was conducted?
M: Nothing really. I asked people to try and find things for me. I thought the
papers would be found. Frank loved the law school, he loved the people in it.
This was his home too, and at that time I did not want to cause a problem. Later
on, I did have an attorney help me; I had to.
J: What is most memorable about your life with Frank and the law school and the
memories that you have of those people?
M: Well, it is just like a woman having a baby. You remember the better things, and
have a tendency to forget the bad parts. There were bad parts and wonderful
days. It always worried me and upset me when things did not go smoothly in
the law school. I felt it at home through Frank. I could tell if he happened to be
upset over something, then I would be upset because I thought things should go
smoother, but that is life. When you look at our federal government, when you
look at everything, that is the way life is. I felt events maybe a little too
personally at times. I wanted everyone to be happy, let's put it that way, and if
people were not happy then I was unhappy.
J: Did you continue to entertain once Frank had stepped down?
M: Oh, yes. It was a different kind, though. We still had some of the faculty in and
Dean and Dorothy Julin, we still entertained new faculty members. Though
Frank is gone, I still try to entertain new faculty, if I can.
J: Well, that must be very fun and certainly keeps you close or in some contact with
M: Well, I am laughing. Several of the faculty have called me about this. The new
list of the faculty has come out this year, and I am listed with the professors
emeritus, and we are all laughing at this. They did not know where to list me.
But I am so pleased that they put me somewhere I feel I spent so many years of
my life in connection with the law school, and I do like to be remembered. It is
part of me too, you know. In a different way, but it is.
J: One thing we have not talked about and I think we need to address, is Frank.
What was Frank all about? Who was Frank Maloney?
M: That is very hard to answer, I have tried to think in my own mind since he died.
Again, I remember the good things more, but he was a very, determined man. I
almost, want to say he was a bull-headed Irishman, but he was not all Irish (he
was half German). He was stubborn, and he liked to have his way. The thing I
remember the most about him I guess is his vitality, his strength, his energy. He
never stopped. He went a mile a minute all day long and still had energy at
night, and got up early in the morning with about four hours sleep. I could never
understand his energy and love of life. I miss him.
J: Four hours of sleep?
J: And he could do that consistently for years?
M: Yes. Well, sometimes on a Saturday or Sunday he would stay a few hours
J: Frank never slept ten hours in his life?
M: Oh, I am sure he did on some weekends when he was totally exhausted. But he
would go to bed late at night and was up early in the morning, like seven. He
would be working when he went to bed at night and he was working when he got
up in the morning. He had many interests, he liked to travel and there were
other things he did enjoy. As I said earlier, he used to climb mountains. Our
children felt this too, and they wondered where he found all that vitality.
He also had times when he made me very mad, but I am sure I made him
very mad, too. I know my children dearly loved him, and he did not always have
time for them, either. I felt our son received less time than maybe he should
have because Frank was too busy. As you know, some people need more
attention than others. I feel sometimes that I did not give Frank enough either;
that I was so busy doing my thing too with my family, that I did not stop and do
the personal things and give the attention to Frank. I am not talking about
entertaining for him, I am talking about just giving him some time and sitting and
I felt our life was very fast and very busy. My children were here last
Saturday night and my son pulled out the first movies his father ever took of our
family, when we spent two and a half months traveling the west. It was all on
tape. The children were thirteen, nine and five. It was really fun. We all
enjoyed it, and we learned so much.
Even at the dinner table, Frank would discuss many issues. We were
always learning in our home. I felt he was very much a scholar, he had a
marvelous English background. In fact, his first degree was in philosophy. He
had studied with some of the great philosophers in Europe. Jacques Maritain
was one of his teachers, a very famous philosopher. He had a pretty good
knowledge of science. He read a lot, if he was not studying he was reading a
new book. I guess he had a drive force, and we did not always agree on its use.
I am sure faculty and students, did not like his being a taskmaster, wanting very
good things from everyone. He sometimes gave poor grades, and he believed
J: He had no problem failing someone if they deserved to fail?
M: No, but he would go over their exams with them and show them how they could
do better next time. He also gave a midterm exam every semester so the
student knew what the law exams were about, what logic was and how you had
to think in law school. That exam did not count much as a grade but it gave the
students a taste. He would go over all those exams, they were written exams,
not true and false. So the students knew what they were doing. These were
freshman classes. When the final exam came around they did not go in cold.
He did believe in teaching and not doing it the easy way.
J: Did Frank back off on his pace when he stepped down from dean?
J: So for the last ten years of his life he maintained the same hectic pace?
M: Yes, definitely. When I first met him I realized he was that way he was going
to see the world. After he was no longer dean, he decided he really was going
to see the world. We did almost see it. We spent about three months a year
J: So he was not teaching at all during the summers?
M: No, this travel was between semesters. If you stop and look there are almost
three months between semesters.
J: That is right. Did he retire before he passed away?
M: No, he was not old enough to retire, he was sixty-one.
J: He was teaching full-time when he passed away.
M: Yes. See, he was thirty-nine when he became dean, and so he thought he had
ten good more years of teaching ahead of him. No, I thought he was still a very
vital young person. When you think of my age and his age you know, not from
your age. He was still a very healthy person.
J: And to be that active, it sounds like he had enough exercise? Did he jog?
M: Oh yes, he walked, he did exercises in the morning, he went to the health spa.
J: In town here?
J: To what did the doctors attribute his death?
M: They never did know why he died, they had an autopsy and they said it was
causes unknown. I thought maybe it was an electric shock from his water pick.
It was stated in Consumer's Report that you can die from a water pick. A couple
years ago there was an article. That if you get water on the engine or on the
plug it can happen, starting a heart fibrillation.
J: So none of his private papers were ever recovered from the law school.
M: Nothing. He was one of these men that kept everything. He never threw
anything away, even trash he kept. So that is why it was so surprising.
J: Was the office stripped bare?
M: A lot of the books were on the shelves and that was it.
J: The office was almost bare then?
M: Yes, it was.
J: Someone had to have a good amount of time.
M: The pictures were on the walls and the artifacts were around, but his files had all
been emptied. He had some leather brief cases that had work in them; he had
his Water Law in one brief case, his class work in another brief case, and then he
had a brief case for his Torts work for the Multi-State Bar Exams. He had just
mailed those exams that morning. These leather brief cases were gone, too,
except the one in his car.
J: He had a manuscript for an upcoming book?
M: He was doing a new book on model water law along with Richard Ausness
[Richard Christian Ausness, Professor, University of Florida College of Law,
J: Was that on Florida?
M: And Sheldon Plager [Sheldon Jay Plager, Professor, University of Florida College
of Law, 1958-1964], I think who was dean at the University of Indiana at
Bloomington, was one of the co-authors of it.
J: Was that on Florida Water Law?
M: No, it was on the United States. It was a book on water laws in the nation.
J: Are there some items or some remembrances that you have that you would like
to share that you do not think we have touched on today? There is so much
time passing there and so many transitions.
M: Probably later on I will think of something. Frank approved and aided me in my
many community projects in Gainesville as well as love and help to our children.
J: That is a good time, when you have that manuscript to make those additions, just
to jot it down. You do not have to write a full sentence, just the idea.
M: I was going to do this this week and I have just been too busy to think of things
and jot them down. You know, I do have all those papers in the garage from his
years as dean, but I do not know whether they are any good or not.
J: Could I take ten or fifteen minutes and see how many boxes there are?
M: You can look at them. I glanced at them.
J: Somebody cleaned that entire office.
M: I know he kept things, as I told you earlier, he kept all of Dean Trusler's paper
she found because he thought they should not be destroyed. In fact, I used to
get upset he would not let me throw out things here at the house because he
always kept everything. That is why it was so weird that I could not find
anything. It affected me personally, and emotionally because I did not know
where I was going. I finally used a copy of a 1973 will I happened to have here
at the house (as I said he never threw anything away). I had that, but it was not
up to date, it was not a good will for what I needed.
J: How did you eventually straighten that out?
M: While the new law school was being constructed and for a year or so after, well
the year after it was finished, some of the law students called it Maloney's Fort.
One of them whose name I think was Nickerson [Jeffrey R. Nickerson, University
of Florida College of Law, class of 1968], is now an attorney in Atlanta. Frank
hired him to stay on for a semester to help with all the leaking problems in the
building. Everytime something went wrong Frank and this young graduate
student Nickerson would go up and check the new leak. You know a new
building does have problems. This one had quite a few.
J: Was Nickerson a law student?
M: He had graduated that year from Law School after the move into the new
building. I have not heard from him, since Frank died.
J: Jeffery R. Nickerson.
M: Yes, that was the one. For the semester after he graduated he was the trouble
shooter for the building.
J: Whenever a leak would come up or an electrical outlet.
M: Or if there was a complaint somewhere. I was over there for graduation in 1970,
when the building first opened, using a silver service the faculty wives had
purchased for large graduation receptions. I turned around and the silver
service was gone.
J: Just gone.
M: And I thought "Well!" About two years later Michael Gannon [Michael V.
Gannon, Associate Dean, Liberal Arts and Sciences, University of Florida] called
me. He said it had been returned to him anonymously and to give it to me. It
did come back after a couple years. I am not sure where it is now, but it is no
J: I am not clear on what you were talking about with the library. I do not
understand what happened physically, chains on the doors so no one could get
M: Certain hours. See, I have told you this is all just memory, and some things do
change in memory, we are not always accurate. I am trying to be accurate.
Ask Betty Taylor about it and see if she will talk to you about it. I remember
Frank coming home with his hands up above his head that day. A new one, you
know, this is a new one.
J: It must have always been exciting, though. Everyday there must have been
something new, something challenging, something traumatic.
M: Yes, I have always wondered how people can be bored because I certainly felt
that our life was not boring, not one part of it.
J: What are your children doing now?
M: Well, I have a son who is an attorney.
J: Do you think he was interested in the law because of Frank?
M: Probably because of his father. I am not sure he is in the right field, but that is
where he is. My oldest daughter has a very successful, interesting
landscape-architecture business in Naples. In fact, she owns four businesses.
She does beautiful things for large hotels, golf courses, homes. My youngest
daughter is married to a law professor here on campus. She has her degree in
learning difficulties of handicapped children.
J: What is his name?
M: Thomas Hurst [Thomas R. Hurst, Professor, University of Florida College of Law,
J: And her name?
M: [Betsy] Elizabeth Maloney Hurst, and they have three children.
J: And what is the name of the daughter in Naples?
M: Joanne Smallwood.
J: And your son?
M: Frank, the third or the fourth. We have kind of dropped that third and the fourth,
we just call him Frank. His son is Frank, too.
J: The fifth?
M: If you want to do that.
J: That is wonderful.
M: If you want to, but we do not.
J: Well, I want to thank you for sharing your time with me today. I do think we have
covered all the points. You will receive a manuscript. I cannot give you a time.
M: Well, of course, a lot of these things just came to me out of the blue. They are
just the things you remember. For example, I remember Mrs. Pridgen used to
have the Fourth of July picnic and would invite all the law faculty and their
children to her Santa Fe lake home for the Fourth of July. Those became
traditions. We looked forward to them. I will never forget the time we had a
flash flood and Bill Macdonald's and Dick Stevens, cars ended up in a ditch in the
mud. Those were fun experiences. I felt that the faculty did do a lot of
interesting things together.
J: It sounds as if they are keeping you busy still, if not the law school, someone on
M: Well, I keep busy myself. They do not do it, I do it. After Frank died the
legislature in Tallahassee one day set aside a day in his memory and passed a
law in his memory. I have a copy of it in his study, which I thought was very kind
of them. Jon Mills [Jon L. Mills, Florida House of Representatives, 1978-1988]
helped that, I know.
[End of the interview]