Title: Jesse Ray Jones
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This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
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K: [This is Vernon Kisling, and I am interviewing] Jesse Jones, the recently retired social sciences
bibliographer at the University of Florida libraries. This interview is taking place at Library
West on the University of Florida campus in Gainesville, Florida on March 18, 1993. Let us
start by having you give us your full name.

J: I am Jesse R. Jones, but I go by the name of Ray--just plain Ray.

K: OK. And [what is] your birthdate?

J: November 28, 1928.

K: What city were you born in?

J: [I was born] in Nashville, Tennessee.

K: Did you go through school and graduate from high school there?

J: [I] Graduated from high school, I went to Vanderbilt (which is in Nashville), and then I went away
to graduate school.

K: Did you go to Vanderbilt straight from high school?

J: Yes.

K: And got your bachelors degree?

J: Yes.

K: What was it in?

J: [It was] in two areas: psychology and anthropology. I had two majors.

K: When you graduated from there did you go straight to graduate school?

J: I went straight to graduate school and got a M.A. in social psychology. [I] then went into the

K: At what school did you get your M.A.?

J: Indiana University.

K: And then you went into the army? What year was that?

J: That was in 1954.

K: Did you graduate in 1954?

J: No, I graduated in 1952.

K: And then you went into the army in 1954?

J: Or [it] may [have been] the beginning of 1955.

K: And how long were you in the army?

J: About two years and two months.

K: And [what did you do] when you came out?

J: I worked for a large corporation for about four and a half years.

K: Which corporation?

J: This was AT&T.

K: Where was that?

J: [It was] in Nashville, and in other areas; I was transferred around to a number of different areas,
[and] to Tennessee. I believe I even worked in Chattanooga during a strike. I do not believe
I had to work in Atlanta during a strike, but I was in a situation where they sent various
teams when there was an emergency or something, and I was one of them, yes.

K: To work in place of strikers?

J: Oh I remember when, for example, there was not strike-breaking when I was a part of the
management, and whenever any of the operations went down the management had to work
hours to keep the operation going.

K: Did you do any Library work--either in the military or for AT&T?

J: No, in the military I taught in an army personnel school, and [I] did various things dealing with
military personnel.

K: What years were you working at AT&T?

J: It was 1956-60, [or] something like that.

K: So up to this point you had not had any library experience?

J: No, I had not.

K: What did you do after AT&T?

J: Well I became ill; I had a very serious illness in 1960 and at that time they were not quite sure
what the prognosis would be. So I decided that it was pretty obvious that I would need to
change occupations and professions. I decided to go back to school and I thought that I
would be working in the junior college, perhaps get a degree, teach, or what have you.

But immediately after I stopped working for the corporation and was thinking about [school], my
friend who owned the major book store in Nashville--Karl Zibart--asked me if I would come
and work with him. So I [worked for him] for about six or seven months.

His good friend was the dean of the library school at Vanderbilt PEeabody. [It was called] Peabody
then, but it is now Vanderbilt Peabody, you know. So, it interested me; they thought that it
would, since I enjoy working with books a great deal. In fact, I think I could have even
stayed and worked in the book trade. But I went back to school and got my degree. I
interned at Vanderbilt Peabody, [which] at one time had very big connections with the
University of Florida Libraries. Dr. Margaret Goggin, the head of Reference at the time that
I came down, had been the head of Reference at Vanderbilt.

A number of these people had been trained by Winchell at Columbia. In fact, I say I am a direct
descendent of the training, because three of the people I worked with who taught me--the
dean of the library school, the head of Reference at Vanderbilt when I was interning there,
and one other person--had worked directly with Winchell at Columbia. Goggin was head of
Reference here and of course, that is the connection--that is how I got a job here.

K: What year were you in library school at Peabody?

J: It would be 1960 or 1961, because I started working here three weeks after I graduated.

K: Who was the person at Peabody who [was your connection]? Was it the dean?

J: Yes.

K: Do you remember her name?

J: Her name will come back to me. Cheney. She was the most eminent teacher of library science in
that era. I do not think that I can really make it come back. But anyway, this was the
connection with Florida; this is how I came to Florida.

K: She knew Goggin then, from the University?

J: Yes, and Brown also knew [Goggin].

K: What was Goggin's first name?

J: Margaret Goggin.

K: So three weeks after you graduated from Peabody with your library degree, you started to work
down here at the University of Florida?

J: Yes, [that is] right.

K: And this was by word of mouth? Did you have to file in an application?

J: Ah yes, I did. First I got a telephone call and had a brief interview.

K: By who?

J: By Goggin. As I remember it, I did fill out an application then, and you had to send your packets
and all of that sort of stuff. But then, as I remember it, there was something of a longer
interview by the telephone. But they did not have the elaborate search committees then.
Well in the first place, they did not have the money to do it that way, so you really had to
depend upon recommendations of people and so on. But I came.

K: So based on the interview she had with you and your references at Peabody, she hired you.

J: [They were] recommendations. Remember [that] I had an advanced degree; I had an M.A. from a
good [university that was] one of the big ten, as well as from Vanderbilt. I had of course
done an internship at Vanderbilt, so there were a number of people who at least knew me.

K: Was that internship while you were going to graduate school?

J: Yes, while I was [in graduate school]. I did it in Reference, but [I] also worked. I worked as a
student in the Reference department of Vanderbilt for nine months.

K: What position was that interview for?

J: It was for a very interesting position in the Reference department, in the bibliography room at that
time. And [it was] also to begin the inter-library loan system. It had just started. I mean
they had a person who gave maybe an hour a day or something, or maybe less time, to get an
inter-library loan.

K: Before we get into that, how did you get from Nashville to Gainesville?

J: I drove. I had a classmate who finished at the same time that I did, and was going to work in a
library in one of the high schools in Georgia. So I remember stopping in Georgia and
staying a couple of nights [with] these people who were very hospitable and so on. So that is
how I remember the first time I arrived; I remember where I parked.

K: What month and year did you arrive here?

J: It was September of 1961, the first week. I arrived the day after Labor Day and went to work that
following week. So, I came to work very early in September, maybe by the seventh.

K: Did you report straight to Goggin or did you have to report to the director, who was Mr. [Stanley
Leroy] West [Director of Libraries and Professor of Library Science] at that time?

J: Well, yes. I reported--I went to the office in Library East and reported [in].

K: To Goggin?

J: Well everybody was there; there was quite a bit of atmosphere, you know. West was there, I
think. I am not sure if I met him on that day, but I met him very soon afterwards. He took a
particular interest in his people. I mean, he was very interested in who was hired.

K: How many libraries were there at that time?

J: Well, there was just the main library and then there were the branch libraries--of course there was
the agriculture, the chemistry, and the architecture and fine arts [libraries]. I believe the
health center was built during the first two years that I was here. And that library was set up.
I believe Esther Jones [Assistant Librarian, Health Center Library] came in 1969 or 1970.
Oh, there was the forestry library, the law library and there were maybe a few others. The
plant library was there. But we did not have, for example, an American collection.
Reference in the collections here was in the bibliography room. [That, and] the humanities
sciences and social sciences, were the three major areas in the library. They had librarians
and LTAs.

K: How many librarians?

J: I would think probably a third of what we have now. Reference was the largest department and of
course, had the largest number of librarians. Cataloging [was] next I believe, and these were
very large departments because they covered and had responsibilities for many things. As an
example, cataloging had the responsibility for all of the microfilm and that type of thing--
anything technical. I believe they even had some of the responsibility for some of the photo
duplication. It was very primitive. We were certainly advanced but it was primitive
compared to what it is now.

K: Were all of those technical services, as well as the administrative services, in Library East?

J: Yes. Reference and technical services, humanities sciences, social sciences and documents were
all in Library East.

K: Was it as big as it is now or was it a smaller building?

J: It was the same size, but it had been kept beautifully. Of course they were interested in the
aesthetics, and so the humanities room was beautifully kept. That is all there was. [There
were] various areas in the building, like Rare Books--there was a leisure area where you
could go and read the latest novels or the latest issues of periodicals and so on. It had a nice
flavor. We did not have a million volumes then at all, but we had a very large reference
collection in the bibliography room. I really did major reference work with Virginia
[Gladys] Francis [Associate Librarian, Reference and Bibliography]. There were three or
four of us, and the three of us worked with Madge Tams, a marvelous librarian. She had
been a science librarian at Princeton. She was a marvelous person, and a marvelous person
to train with. Virginia Francis and I worked with her.

Goggin became head of [public] services--director of public services--and allowed them to go
further, about 1965 or 1964 something like that, but there really were no major changes. By
the way, Irene Zimmerman was also a member of the Reference staff. She worked
sometimes in bibliography and sometimes in the social science room, which of course had
documents and business and the major social science indexes. I am sorry, they had major
reference tools; we had all of the great indexing systems, including the big Russian ones--the
Referativnyi Zhumal.

K: Were you the only social science librarian?

J: We did not think of ourselves in that [way]. I had to learn to do science; I learned to do chemical
abstracts and all the major science things in botany and biology, and so on. We had only one
copy of many of the indexes, you know. We even had the Engineering Index, you see. The
concept of the library is very different, because we basically had these small branches that
did very little reference. In fact their hours were limited, so the major reference in many of

the sciences was done here--almost all of them. So I learned--we all had to learn--how to use
these. And then of course we had almost all of the areas coming here.

K: So you were basically a reference librarian?

J: [I was] basically a reference librarian, but then in addition I had to run inter-library loans. Of
course this had really just started. So I had a little staff to supervise, of several students and
an LTA. And of course we got a TWX, so that started the first electronic [use].

K: What is a TWX?

J: [It is a] TWX, you know. Or you have seen a Telex? So [this was] the first electronic system
inter-library loan. Florida--and really the nation--was developing so much from them. I
mean, in so many different areas and with universities, the inter-library loans really became
very prominent. It was decided that we would do services to businesses or industry through
inter-library loan and I did that, I witnessed that development, and so on. Of course this
came because of the Cape [Canaveral], and the development there.

K: [Are you referring to] Cape Canaveral and the development of the space program?

J: Exactly. So we were basically their librarians until they developed some of their satellite libraries
with companies and search institutes that supported the Cape, right there in the proximity.
So, I did that. I went to Cape Kennedy at least four or five times. I went also with Roger
Crum. So the services were developed and we had a fee service.

So I learned a number of things then about science and the technology area and the management
area too, because of the management problems that they had in putting all of these systems
together. It was really quite marvelous. We had a number of these research groups coming
to the library. So the library was in much greater use by so many segments of society; [it
was] not only the faculty--everyone came. They had not developed their own information
services. So I found that really very exciting, and I was very pleased. It was demanding,
because the turnaround was such that you really had to respond and respond correctly. You
charged them for this, so if anything was wrong then they would say, "We paid for this, you
know, and you are not doing this right."

So it was a wonderful educational program in learning many things about the library. Of course,
what you really learned then was that libraries are not prepared to respond quickly. That
whole environment was not that [way]. But remember, I had come from a large corporation.

K: Did AT&T have that kind of service or library?

J: Oh, AT&T measured all of its services. And of course, Southern Bell, AT&T, and all of that
measured all of their services.

K: Did they have what we call a "special library" at that time?

J: No, but they had a lot of information. They did a great deal with the seminars and you were
surrounded by materials that were in the library. You also saw the technology part of it. But
of course you then had to respond very quickly and accurately. This was responding to
people at Kennedy. We were not, at first, a very high priority. And of course you know this
was the beginning of the big push in the sciences and technology for the state.

[It was] great fun, but we had to answer to them for so many hours and we did reference [work]. I
was fortunate [that] I had learned French and [that] I had taken two years [of] German in
college, so I could at least read the abstracts and they got something out of them, you know.
So, I learned something about the foreign bibliography of the sciences. It was great fun.

K: What do you think is the major cause for developing the inter-library loan system at that time?
Was it the amount of research that had increased to the point where the library simply could
not supply the information?

J: Yes, [and] remember that Florida was of course taking off right at that time and here was Cape
Kennedy, [and] here was the development of all of the Ph.D. programs too. Gosh, I can
remember when many of the Ph.D. programs were formulated and accredited. And for many
of them, I was there showing these people what we had as far as reference and the services.
All of us had participated in that. I did and I really enjoyed it very much; it was really

K: So, it was really an expansion program to the University as well as to the businesses in Florida?

J: That is right, yes.

K: At that time the state library was not really providing those kinds of services?

J: No, [especially] when you think of the complexity of [Cape] Canaveral; they have to know
celestial mechanics. Would you call the state library for celestial mechanics, most of which
have been done in French and in German? I mean, the bibliography of late nineteenth and
early twentieth century science and so on. [I] did a lot with chemistry and a lot with Russian,
and library loans. A year after I was here the U.S. State Department allowed us to work with
the Russians. So it was fun to do all of the sulfur compounds and search the Soviet Union
for materials they submitted in the studies they did in chemistry and chemical engineering
that we had to get. And so it was really a wonderful education, per se, in learning.
Remember, it was not something you could put into the computer; you had to know these

things and you had to find them and you had to remember the exact titles. If not, [you had
to] know how to find the exact titles and so forth. It was a very different form of
librarianship at that time.

K: So did you get the request for the information over the TWX and respond with the TWX?

J: We had to many times respond with the TWX, the telephone, in writing, and so on. But
sometimes research groups would get in a plane, (I mean the GE research group for
example) and come here and spend the day. I would have to work with them because I was
the liaison for them. So it was great fun. Now I was not alone in a sense, because we had to
use a number of different libraries. But I was normally the focal point, and normally I was
the one to identify the publications for loan, and that sort of thing. I had both the knowledge
of base, and a coordinating role too. So it was fun and I really did enjoy it; I learned a lot
about older American documents and older German documents. As far as learning about the
universe of many kinds of publications was a wonderful experience, and just one of them
because we had so many new faculty [members] for the Ph.D. program. It was really a
marvelous, exciting time.

K: Did this faculty interact with the librarians?

J: [There was] much [interaction]. All of us worked with faculty; [we worked with] all of the
graduates and the new graduates, and professors. For example, [the professor of] material
science was fluent in Russian and he had to use the Referativnyi Zhumal for the material
science of metallurgy, and so on. Many of them knew languages. So they all came in and
used the materials, but remember you could not sit in your office then and dial into a
computer. So the faculty offices and the carels that they had were very precious, and they
worked. But they always used Reference. Reference was important and the interaction was

K: Did the professors have assignments for their students that made them use the library?

J: Yes, because they felt it was [necessary]. Remember, these were the people who were in charge
of the University [and] had gone through World War II. They had seen great destruction and
terrible death (many of them on the battle- field) and there was this desire to bring the very
best to development and to create. Libraries stood for culture and education. To have a
good library and see it develop was a major priority.

There were six or seven people who were so fascinated with getting and wanting the library to be
formed and they tried to sell it to the president. They did, and effectively. But there was
great enthusiasm for libraries then, and getting rare books or collections. We were all just
like children.

It is hard now because, basically, we do not have the kind of people on the faculty or in the
administration who have this approach or who respond in this fashion. It was really very
wonderful then, because it gave a sense of support. And they brought in very difficult
problems that really challenged you, so that you really understood that you had made a
contribution. [On] some of the questions I would try to help, and we had to get copies of
manuscripts. I had to deal with Vatican manuscript collections, and other collections all over
Europe. I mean, [I dealt with] the things that people needed for their research on their
dissertation and their masters thesis. So for me, it was certainly a time of great expansion of
learning and I am very grateful for what the faculty and the graduate students taught me. It
was wonderful learning from, with, and through them. For example, [regarding] the whole
eighteenth century, we had at least four or five major scholars--all of whom read French and
Latin of course. Well, they would come in [with] problems. They did really major work
here in the field, and it was wonderful what they taught me about the bibliography of the
eighteenth century--the culture, intellect and publishing, you know. I was working with
them, and there were always wonderful challenges.

K: Did the faculty have more involvement as far as selecting the books and everything?

J: They did the major selection, except for reference. There was even a faculty committee to advise
in the selection of reference, which was welcomed. These were people who had a real
interest in it. So, it was really a very different environment. They did select. They had great
influence in the library and of course they could be very demanding and very difficult, and
they reported you immediately if there was any problem. So it was a difficult Dr. Dauer for
example. Dauer was the secret power broker of the University.

K: Who is this?

J: Manning Dauer. Dauer Hall [was named after him]. He was chair for political science. He could
really be very difficult to some of the others. We had faculty who could be very difficult,
very demanding, and very harsh with us. They were also very supportive.

K: What about the University administration, from the dean's level up to the president?

J: They were more supportive. They wanted to see a library. They wanted [it]. It was not
something that seemed to take away from their [funds], as it is now. Carol Turner, I believe,
[John V.] Lombardi [President, University of Florida, 1990-] and [Andrew] Sorenson
[Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs] came here to meet with the library
committee. They had proposed a forty million dollar building. [laughter] And so Lombardi
said, "Look, the deans are trying to get a five million dollar building. What do you think?"
But at the time--in the 1960s--there was the desire to come up with a [library]. So everyone
did not feel the jealousy and there were more financial resources. [They were] smaller
resources, but I mean for the time [they were adequate].


K: Financial resources?

J: There were some financial resources [for] the building. The 1960s were a time of great building,
and in all areas, [such as] Ph.D. programs. For example, they developed the Ph.D. program
for French literature and they brought in four or five young people, as well as the chair, who
was quite eminent. Well, we all had to work together to develop the French bibliography
and the French collection because we had three years before accreditation was to take place.
Maybe [it was] four--I am not sure. It was a time of beginnings. [It was] very interesting.
[It was] a time of hope, and sort of a boundless belief in education and educability.

K: So the library was really looked at as being an integral part of the whole operation?

J: Yes, that was the feeling I got. We were not faculty. We had tenure and we were sort of like A &
P--I am not sure what category--I do not remember. But we would get tenure. You were
part of the gang, and they treated you so. Sometimes they would let you know that you were
not faculty, but most of the time you were part of some team. We were all working to try to
come up in the world. So it was a time of beginning and a time of enthusiasm, on the part of
administration and on the part of the new faculty. I felt that it was a marvelous time to be
here and to see this.

K: Well, did the library itself grow quickly in that early-to-mid 1960s period, prior to Library West?

J: Yes, it really did.

K: Did they add many new librarians, or was it basically collection growth?

J: It really was librarians, and collections, and services. The library alone expanded a great deal, and
the Reference services expanded. [There were] a number of programs, like the paper
program. [It added to] the development and enhancement of the Florida library history. And
of course, [there was] Rare Books. An interesting area that was certainly expanding was the
Caribbean. [There was a] real interest in the Caribbean and Latin America.

So they looked around [and were] expanding but there was also a personalized feeling. Mr. West
was deeply interested in people, in staff and in books. When he spoke in the [University of
Florida] Senate, people listened. He was one of the forces on the campus. The librarian, the
director of libraries, was really a force.

K: He was important [and] respected?

J: Yes he was.


K: Did he interact with the librarians?

J: Yes. He worked the Reference desk a couple of times for us.

K: So he got out of his office?

J: Yes. He was really interested in the students, and their values, and what atmosphere [they were
in]. [There was] the feeling that a subtle learning took place in the library by your being
there, around books and so forth. He wanted the students to be here. It was a very different
approach to education. He set up areas where they could work, and so forth. [It was] the
physical center, [due to] the convenience.

K: Was the library quiet at that time?

J: No, it was hugely used; it has always been used, seemingly a great deal. But casts of thousands
were around [laughter], and this was one of the things you had to [do]. You had to act as a
disciplinarian and we had [people who] really cut up. We had some interesting incidents.
[laughter] As the man in the bibliography room, I was always the first to be sent to quell [the
participants]. There were no serious incidents, but we expected people to have greater
respect for the silence, the materials and the eating. We had to call the campus police if
somebody [gave us] a hard time. And they really cut off your lending. Now it so
bureaucratic, but then it was quite personal. We had many people come in off the streets.

K: [Were they] street people?

J: Yes, we had a few of those, but you also had many people in the community come. Or people
[who were] travelling through came. Remember [that] Florida, in the 1960s, had many
people who retired from Washington, WWII, [and had] high positions. And they wanted to
use the library. So they would make a trip here once a month, or once every three weeks. I
remember a big shot from the CIA who was interested, and marvelous to work with. You
could imagine the reference questions he asked; [he was] really very interesting. So the fact
that we were practically the only research library in Florida, large enough to [provide
services to these people]. We had such a diversity of people coming in, as well as a diversity
of faculty. [Including] the fact that they were all practically concentrated into one library, as
far as Reference goes. [That] certainly is the place that the library loan goes. So we had a
tremendous diversity of population.

K: With the growth of the collections, did that pretty much follow the growth of the programs that
were developed?

J: Yes, it did. The first thing they would look at would be the library collection, when they were
thinking of developing a graduate program. That is, the faculty. And of course you know it


was never sufficient. So they would make great effort for both, because the bibliographic
and Reference was considered as important as anything else.

K: So they actually would plan the library needs into their program?

J: Yes they would. I guess they did give us the money, but the library tried to find money to do this.
And remember, of course, the faculty controlled [it all]. The allocation was to departments.
Of course [for] the chair and the library committee, or the library Reference, this was a big
thing. It [was] quite a pot of money and people did not have the money to buy all of these
things and put them in their office. The library was the simple service.

K: Did each department determine how much of its budget it would spend on library resources?

J: No, the library had a certain budget and it was allocated to the departments, [ever] since I [can]
remember. Of course Reference was always a major part of [it]. You had to buy the
bibliography, the reference tools, and so on. It was really considered very important.

K: Well, did the faculty recommend what books to buy?

J: We would recommend, but we also recommended to the chair of Reference. But we did not have
a committee for each area until [later]. In other words, it was all done informally. We would
find something that we needed and we would make out an order card and send it through. It
went through completely, through the chair of Reference.

K: When did that change? Al and Chuck came in 1978?

J: Approximately, [but] I will have to check on that date. The development of collections in
Reference was considered very important, to keep up with all the new programs and so on.
The accreditation teams, when they came, would look at the reference collections to see
whether they were appropriate. We had many, because of the development of the programs.

K: You keep saying "the bibliography room." So all of the reference material was in one room?

J: No. All of the bibliography, abstracting and indexing services were in one room, but we also had
major reference materials in the science, humanities and social science rooms. So basically,
indexing and abstracting services, plus all the bibliographies, were in the bibliography room.
It acted like a telecommunication system. That is where people came first. We had a
catalog there. We were the experts on use of the catalog, on finding things and referring
people up, and learning how to refer people to the appropriate subject area. So for example,
if it was a business question involving tax service, of course we would refer them to the
social science room. They had someone there who would help them with the tax services,
and the like.

- 13-

K: Was that in the lobby area of Library East, so that it would be the first thing that they came too?

J: Yes, [that is] right. The bibliography room was where preservation is currently, and the catalog
was all along the entire length of that wall there on the outside to the right. You could use it
both inside the room and outside, on the long corridor.

K: So things pretty much stayed the same--outside of the growth of the library--through the early
and mid-1960s, [and] towards the late 1960s?

J: As far as I remember, the organization on the basic kinds of services grew (as I told you) in
complexity and in speed and in numbers. But that was the approach that was used in
Reference, and it seemed to work very well. The library alone, of course, expanded again
and again and again. While I was there it expanded about three to four hundred percent
within just a few years, and all of these connections were made.

K: Was that the reason they decided to build a new library? Because of its growth?

J: Yes, and [it was also due to] the interest of the faculty, the feeling that to have a new library was a
very prestigious and important thing.

K: Well, Library West was opened in 1968.

J: [It was] the latter part of, I guess June, or the latter part of May.

K: When do you remember the library staff seriously talking about the new library and planning for

J: About three years before (maybe two years), all of us were involved in some form of the
planning--furniture, the movement of the collection, and so on. Then [we were involved in]
the development of the collection in Library West--the new research library--and what was
to go over into Library East as a part of the undergraduate collection. They had hoped at the
time, and did have some money to duplicate--I do not remember--but certainly I was a part
of a small team that made decisions as to what was to go into the collection over there and
what would be needed.

K: So Library West was viewed as a graduate library, which at that time was a popular way that
universities were dividing up the services?

J: That is right, yes. The graduate division was the nouvelle vague, just as the subject divisions had
been the nouvelle vague prior to that. So we were very current, very fashionable. It was
really very interesting. What I remembered most, is the fact that we moved the collections


one week at night. In other words, we kept everything going during the day, the library was
not closed a minute--at all--for the move. It was done at night. Every one of the librarians
had a team of people they hired and we moved the materials at night. They were also
organized so that you could find them while they were in the interim stage, with serials and
other things. This was designed by Goggin and Howard Huseman [Assistant Librarian,
Teaching Resources Center], who worked in circulation of the administrative offices. And
they did it very well. I was quite amazed, but at that time the thought of closing the library
for a week--to move something--would not have been service-oriented.

K: So there was about two years spent on the expansion of the library?

J: There probably was much more, but we were involved in the space. We had an inter-library loan
plan for the inter-library loan section.

K: So the involvement of the librarians was about to end?

J: I think so. As I remember, yes.

K: And how long did it take to build it?

J: I think about a year. It was supposed to be much larger, as you know, filling that parking lot that
is adjacent. They did not get the matching federal funds that they wanted. The people here
understood constituencies, and the politics of the campus; they knew how to get the
cooperation of large groups of the faculty.

K: The library administration did?

J: Yes. They gave parties. Goggin gave beautiful parties which we all [contributed to], and they
invited the chairs of departments.

K: Were those on campus or off?

J: Off. They entertained sometimes here, but you could not have alcoholic drinks here, so they had
them in their personal homes. And she had a beautiful home.

K: Was this to explain what was being planned for the library, or was it strictly social?

J: It was social, but with a desire to strengthen one's political clout on the campus and to make sure
that you had a constituency that would support you. But there was a continuous dialogue
between the faculty and the librarians, and the library and the library administration. In other
words, to keep that going. So there was a great deal of entertainment. In the library then we
all liked to be with one another and did interesting things together. But also there were


things with faculty, and so forth. And we were always invited to faculty parties, too. I
remember the first party I went to and was invited to. So we were included in faculty parties.

K: So you met the faculty--as well as the library personnel--when you first came?

J: Yes, that is right. And [we met them] socially. We were invited to major parties. You were
always aware that you were supposed to be a representative of the library and many of these
parties were constituently developed; they were always political. [laughter] People enjoyed
one another very much, but they were always developing liaisons. Can you really be mean
to people who have entertained you so well? It works today too. But then it was very
important. Social graces and the ability to be a part of that environment was considered an
important part of it here. So that was another aspect that of course has changed as we have
become larger and [gained] a great deal of academic reputation.

K: You say that you spent a week moving. Is that all [the time] it took?

J: They moved night and day, but the librarians, for a number of us, all had responsibilities. They
would come back at six and work until eleven or twelve--something like that--moving all of
these things. But the move had been worked out and Reference was moved in a day. It was
the major collections that were missing. But all of us had some major assignments.
Normally we did our assignments during the day or a portion of the day, and came back and
worked at night. And [we] thought nothing of it. In other words, that was a wonderful

K: Did the administrative offices and technical services move over here at that time?

J: Yes, they moved at the same time. And at the time of the opening of the library there was a
ceremony. You know, you had one in the Plaza of the Americas and they were out in front.
The head librarian of Princeton was one of the chief speakers. They had a number of
different interesting and intellectual programs. It was really quite interesting.

K: What was the name of Library East prior to the building of West? Was it just the main library,
and then when West was built they just split the name up to East and West?

J: Yes. They wanted [them to be] the Undergraduate Library and the Graduate Library. And for
about ten months this worked. But remember we were having terrible trouble with the
students then; they had started. And the [students] felt that they were discriminated against.
All they were asked for is their reason for wanting to use the library. Nobody was ever
refused, but this is the way of course, that it works in any place. But they did not want this.

K: They did not want that distinction made between graduate and undergraduate?

J: That is right. Remember that at that time you got to express love and lots of different things which
seem to have disappeared.

K: They did not like restrictions?

J: None.

K: Even though technically, they were not restricted from going in?

J: That is right. I mean all they had to do was give their reason for coming. So that lasted a fairly
short time. But basically, that was the reason that they found it unacceptable. I mean the
duplication really created a good undergraduate collection, and it continued to create a
graduate collection. It was very expensive, and required a great deal of time and a great deal
of money. Now, during this time they separated us. I came and worked in Library West.
Virginia Francis, Ms. [Madge Penton] Tams [Assistant Librarian, Reference and
Bibliography] and I did Reference. And a number of people worked in Reference in Library
East. Hoyle [Fleming] Montgomery [Jr.] [Assistant Librarian, Reference and Bibliography]
was the sort of sub-chair of that. But basically, I think what was also found was that it was
very difficult to supervise two places. Reference in two places, with supervision here, was
very difficult.

K: When dividing resources up between the two--for instance when you look at the journals--how
would you determine what was the graduate journal and what was the undergraduate
journal? I mean, how was that distinguished?

J: Well for example, they used the reader's guide and some other major indexes that we all felt were
oriented [for] undergraduates and [we] did it in that fashion, as I remember. [It is] a little
hazy remembering that. So I worked not on that, but on setting up the reference services
over there. But remember we had to coordinate reference services, too. I think I was so
busy because I then became in charge of all the social science reference here.

K: Was this because you had a different position then?

J: Yes, I was no longer an inter-library loan librarian. I was a social sciences Reference, research

K: Was that in 1968?

J: Yes. The moment we moved, I was social science researcher and had my own budget for
purchase of social science materials in the main collection. Some years it was a large
budget. We also did a lot of work for developing the women's collection, too. But Virginia
did the humanities and I did the social sciences.


K: Now that you are starting to get into the subject areas, was this the first time that the librarians
were assigned to specific subject areas?

J: Remember, they were assigned when you had the subject divisions. We had a social science room
and a humanities room and a science room, so that basically you had that. So we had that,
but this was really different. In other words, we had one reference department with an
undergraduate and then the graduate and the business libraries. So I did the social sciences.
We had a business library and Ms. Tams was the science librarian because we still had some
sciences here. Although, even at that time, you could see there was a desire on the part of
the satellite libraries to do more reference. So that was sort of a little tendency that was
going to develop much further. But the science materials were all taken from reference. So
when Ms. Tams retired, Delores worked in the sciences too.

K: Delores Jenkins?

J: She was not officially appointed, but that was the area she was interested in.

K: So at about that time, around 1968, you became a librarian within the social sciences because it
was right in your title. But your title also had research in it.

J: That is what I remember; [I remember] that mine was the social sciences research librarian.

K: So you were not only moving toward subject areas, but you also had a research aspect?

J: Yes, that is right.

K: Were you expected to do research or was it because you were in the graduate library?

J: I was expected to be able to help work with the graduate research professors and people who had
major research problems in the social sciences.

K: The librarians who were still in [Library] East were working basically with undergraduates?

J: Yes.

K: So there was a distinction between the librarians as well as the library?

J: Exactly--that is right.

K: When they decided not to bother with this kind of distinction with libraries, did you still remain a
research librarian?


J: Basically, yes.

K: So after they decided to give this idea up, did they redistribute the collection or cut down on

J: Yes, they brought the collection over, and much of the duplication which you would find in the
collection, especially the classics in social sciences or humanities or whatever, is due to the
fact that we had purchased some over there for over Library East. And then they were

K: Over here in [Library] West?

J: Yes, but remember they used both [Library] East and [Library] West for the collection.

K: For the total collection, because of the space problem?

J: Yes.

K: So the whole collection was integrated, but it was distributed between East and West?

J: [Yes, it was distributed] between East and West.

K: What other kinds of problems were the students presenting for the library, other than the fact that
they did not like this kind of distinction?

J: Well, each day you would come to work, and of course there was a huge crowd outside with a lot
of agitators, obviously not students. We had been told, [through] intelligence from various
police and other groups, that the Left in the United States was going to make a tremendous
effort to control and take over the universities. And it came or really made an effort. And so
we always had crowds. First of all, you had some of the students participating, but you had
large groups that came in from nowhere.

K: From off campus?

J: Yes, and they did various things. They tried to take over our buildings, and so on. But you would
come to work in the morning and there would be this screaming. And if you listened they
would say, "I tell you, you must kill your mother; you must go home and kill your mother
and father." This was all permitted.

K: They just said whatever they wanted to say?


J: [They said] whatever they would want to say. It was just unacceptable. Well, of course this was
the time of the Vietnam war. So a lot of people really were not interested. They were
agitators of sorts. Oh, they were all sorts of things. So it is not only that, but then I was on
the committee. They appointed committees to listen to the students at the University here.
So I would go along and I was on the committee of certain groups and the Dean of Education
was there. He was the chairman.

K: Who is that?

J: Dean Smith. It was a very strange time. Not only to come here every day and listen to the yowl
outside of all of these groups, but everyone was an agitated group. For example, you know
that the civil rights [movement] was going on at that time, too. So I had to buy materials for
the collection and for reference and they would send proper, bully-boy types of people in to
see whether we had purchased black materials. You were always being intimidated by some
group that felt that they were not being represented, and so forth. So it was all of this; it was
adversative and intimidating and just very, very unpleasant. And of course, the library was
in jeopardy. Many of the libraries had been horribly burned; they burned a portion of the
UCLA library (University of California at Los Angeles). They would take newspapers and
light them to documents and bum them, and so forth. Or they destroyed card catalogues and
so on. So It was one of the groups here and it was always Library West that they wanted to
do something with. It was not a chemistry library or what have you. So Dr. [Gustave
Adolphus] Harrer [Director of Libraries and Chairman of Department of Library Science]
formed a team and they worked for many hours. How do you protect [the library], especially
at night, when we would have intelligence that they would plan to bum the library down, and
that they were going to come over as a large group? And I would have my assignment to
watch and see where the gathering crowd or mob was heading. And we had instructions on
what we had to do to protect the library. It was sad.

And of course we had experiences with the graduate students. For example, Ms. Tams and I always
taught one of the bibliographic instruction of certain age groups and we would be there,
some black graduate student would get up and say, "How dare you give this presentation
without discussing South Africa, and blah, blah, blah." Of course, he really intended to be
heard. It made it quite unpleasant. Then three days later, you read that the graduate student
had beaten his common-law wife to death, in the ghetto. So if the people who taught me at
Vanderbilt had told me, or if I had known that this is what I would be dealing with, [it would
be different]. They would not have believed this, that on a university you would have
students who were so agitated. So we had many people who did not belong to the University
at the time. [They were] either escaping, or because of various civil rights and other
movements, [they] were brought on to the campus. [It was a] very unintellectual
environment, [full of] intimidation, and of course, free speech, if you did not agree with


We had one really major threat. There were a number of threats, but the one I remember was in the
late afternoon. I was on the Reference desk, which was right there. There was a huge
crowd, and they started moving back toward, across the plaza. I rose from the desk. [What]
they were ready to [do], I do not know, but they could have really destroyed that whole
place. But Father [Michael Valentine] Gannon [Associate Professor of Religion and
History], by coincidence, who is the associate dean (he is no longer a priest) said, "Why are
you here?" You could hear his voice [saying], "Why are you here? You do not want to do
anything to this place. You should leave now." There was this mob. I said to him, "I think
you saved the library, or at least a good portion of it." It was frightening. And it was
frightening because basically, I was by myself. It frightened the others so that they had
locked their offices and had stayed in there. And they were sitting ducks. So there were
many unpleasant incidents and the library was saved.

Being on the committee was very unpleasant too, because the students would basically just get up
and rant and rave. They would bring in the TV cameras. They would dress up, and rant and
rave and so forth, [in front of] the TV cameras. And then [they would] not follow it up at all.
It was that sort of [thing].

The faculty were not marvelous then, either. I mean, they caved. We will give you one incident. I
was on a committee where we all [represented] various sections of this large University
committee with the students. Anyway, the students got up and proposed that there be no
grades whatsoever in the University, so it would be a gradeless University. And they
insisted that they take a vote. All of the faculty on the committee all stood up for "yes."
They then said, "Who does not [want the gradeless system]?" Manning Dauer and I were the
ones who raised, so there we were, sitting ducks. [laughter] I thought, "Well, to have this
crotchety, older person who is so dedicated to the library and to the University, and this
rather meek librarian say "No, no, no, you cannot give up some kind of grading."

The University announced things of free speech to be harmed, since no other side except the anti-
side [spoke out]. So, if there is ever any real great threat to intellectuals or to intellectual
integrity, I am not sure that the universities are the ones to protect it. But that was my

K: Did they actually go through with that policy of no grades?

J: No, they did pass/fail or satisfactory/fail, or something like that, for certain classes. They
developed some sort of system. They do this in medicine, you know, but after all you have a
whole set of the brightest and the bravest (supposedly). I mean they just tell you that you
passed. You know that you must have gotten an A or a B+, or they would make you take the
course over. But this was not medical school. They did develop some sort of
satisfactory/not satisfactory [system] for a while.


K: For some of the classes?

J: Yes.

K: A lot of that was probably just showmanship on the students's part, but did the student body want
more of a say in what was going on at the library and what was purchased?

J: Not really. [it was mainly] small groups. [The] library is always a part of the power struggle,
because of the information. And as a social science librarian, I always had to deal with these
people. It was not only the black caucus and other groups. For example, later on when the
Iranians were getting rid of the Shah, their people came in and insisted that we take out
everything that dealt with the Shah of Iran. Of course I would not.

And of course we always had Japanese people who were interested in how much Japanese material
we had. They were just interested in finding a cultural, sort of propagandistic, presence. But
we had a number of groups that could be rather threatening about how much you did or did
not have of their material that expressed their viewpoint. So libraries were important.

K: Was the relationship with faculty changing in the late 1960s?

J: I did not feel that there was a great change of the faculty. They still used the library a great deal.
Most of them were of course siding with the students, at least overtly, whether they did
covertly or not. And many of them had some bad experiences. Students would come and
say, "We are closing this class down." And the conservative people on the faculty said, "We
are not closing anything down." They really took some harassment. And I am not sure, but I
did not feel that the faculty changed in their approach to the library. I did not. The faculty
were nervous and skittish. Most of them are liberal, so there were very few people who were
conservative. But nonetheless, they did not change in their attitude toward the library or the
librarians. We could have some arguments about policies for the behavior of the students.
They seemed to think it was wonderful that the students did some of these things, [like]
taking over the administrative buildings, and so on. And principle pretty much backed the
students. Later on, [they] sort of modified their positions toward [being] more conservative.
But it was very unpleasant. I remembered every day, for months, to hear the yowl. Or to
walk through it and hear people and the most outrageous things they would say. [They said,]
"You must go and kill your mother and father; you promised me you will." You just did not
expect to hear that sort of thing. And they were afraid of course, of bombings and that sort
of thing. [It was] very unpleasant. We had fewer librarians than we do now of course, but
Dr. Harrer had devised ways to protect the library, and he did. And of course they took out a
special insurance, but they also did a shelf list of everything. We did have some damage in
the catalogue as I remember, but a very limited amount.

K: Did the student body still use the library despite all of this?


J: Yes they did. The library has always been used fairly heavily here and many things did not seem
to make a change in that. There was a tremendous amount, but we had many more people
on the campus, especially in the graduate classes, who really did not belong, and had no
interest in the social [problems] and were waiting out the war. So, that was something that
one noticed.

K: So that group of people really did not care about the library?

J: No, I did not get the feeling that they [did]. It is interesting about memory, though. We seem to
keep on and manage during those very difficult times and we had fewer incidents here than
[at] places like UCLA. It would be very interesting. I went to a meeting; in fact I was in
charge of the program at ALA, and the documents librarian at UCLA was a member of the
panel. Her documents had just been burned by the students, and she thought that was
perfectly all right. [She felt] they had a right to bum if they were not [content]. It was that
atmosphere: "Oh, my children have done this and they have a perfect right." It was a very
permissive [environment]. "If they do not like something, of course they can bum
[documents]. Why not?" It was the thinking that you really cannot quite manage. So, you
really learn [to feel]: "What has come over you? What gives you, or anyone, the right to go
in and bur property of the U.S. government or the University? Students have all paid for
this, plus the taxpayers have." Anyway, it was strange; whatever side you identified with or
if you were sort of in the middle, you heard these almost outrageous things.

We had a good bit of trouble, but we did not have it as they did in any other places. I can also
remember the time, of course, when the barriers went down for the civil rights. They
expected to have some riots on the campus then, but they had none whatsoever. When I first
came, we had some black people using the library; they would come in. But normally, since
segregation was in place, you would take them to a spot away from a group of students. And
secretly of course, we all did a great deal, because everybody--Ms. Tams and all of us--felt
that all people must have access to information. I think that we realized, of course, that this
was going to change.

K: Did any of the students get upset because you were helping black students?

J: No, there was never [a problem]. And we normally had some black faculty from [Florida
Agricultural and Mechanical University] A&M, or we would have some people in the town
coming to get certain kinds of information, and so on. We really tried to make an effort.
And we are not supposed to--there were certain things you were not supposed to do--but we
always tried to [make and effort].

K: [Did you provide] certain kinds of services?

- 23-

J: I cannot remember what the limitations were; maybe [it was] that they could not take out materials
through their library cards--I do not remember. There were a number of strictures.

K: [How] were they limited?

J: [They were] limited in their access--limited in access and use. I cannot remember all of the
strictures that were there, but they were there. In other words, there was a segregation, so to
speak, in the library. But we always knew this was going to end.

K: When did it end, roughly?

J: It was something like 1964 or 1965. [It was] quite soon after I came. There were gradual civil
rights movements, and so on. But there were various groups who came to check to see
whether we were buying black materials, and so on. I was really responsible. I had a fund--
they gave me a fund.

K: For black materials?

J: [It was] for Afro-American, black materials. [They were] both [for] Reference, and for
development in several parts of the collection. And we worked with almost everyone.

K: Let us talk about the time period [of] about 1970, after Library West has opened and we still have
the student unrest. The libraries have gone from being graduate and undergraduate, back to
being just the regular libraries. Take it from that point on. In about 1970, did the
computerization start yet?

J: Well, there was something in the air, as far as computerization [was concerned]. We had a new
director you know, around 1968 or 1969: Dr. Gustave Harrer, and he hired the first assistant
director for systems, and this person was anxious to do two things. First of all, [they wanted]
to introduce the computer into the library. And secondly, [they wanted] to teach us
something about it. It was just beginning, so a number of us went over and took a
programming course over at the School of Business. [It was] a very brief introduction of
FORTRAN, and of course FORTRAN did not have very much application at that time, but I
finished [along with] several others. The systems director was new; he had come from

K: Who was that?

J: Robin Fern. He had come from business and had worked with one of the big technological firms.
He was really connected with the University of Ohio or Batell, which was a major firm. So
he decided that he would also teach a class. And so they had a class for introduction to
computer techniques and the like, here. At that time in 1970 it was decided by Harrer, the


system's person, that we would undertake some computerization. The opportunity came
because the computerized census had started. So basically, for the first time this amazing
amount of statistical information of great significance, was available through the computer,
computer tape and programming systems.

K: Was that the 1970 data?

J: Yes. [It was] so that you could get down to very small areas and get socioeconomic
characteristics for areas in a merchant district--about 800 to a 1000. So it was decided that
the library would take up this challenge, because Dr. Harrer believed and foresaw that
information in whatever format was information, and it was the library's responsibility to
deal with it.

Robin Fern was basically interested in it from the standpoint of marketing, business, and the like.
He had no real background in social sciences, but the social sciences were fascinating,
because they opened up a whole new world to them. So I was visited by Dr. Harrer one
afternoon, and told that I was going to be responsible for the whole program of the
computerized census, which was a very interesting experience.

K: At that time, were there any computers at the library?

J: No, not in the library--to my knowledge. Of course we all had access to whatever was being done
in the library. So this started, and there had to be a good amount of training. We purchased
the dual lab's software which was a very easy, simple software, and they sent us off to a
suburb of Washington, D.C., to be trained from both the census [Bureau]'s and from the dual
lab's point of view. So it was excellent training. I mean [it was] basic, and some of it [was]
very advanced training. They sent one or two people from systems and [they] sent me. So
we would participate in the seminars in learning to utilize and understand the concepts of the
census and to utilize the programming language. Purchases of the software and the tapes
were made. We became a census processing unit--one of the first in the country, [and]
certainly one of the first in the South as far as the library was concerned.

It started a period of service and it was a fee for service. We would receive the requests, I and one
other person in Reference would do the programming using the simplified system, give it to
systems with a personal assistant who did the programming and they would run it through
NERDC. This was really the start of our collection of numeric data bases.

Well the program had a real impact on the library, but also on the library's relationship with many
groups. The first run that we did was for the reapportionment of the state. Dr. Manning
Dauer was the consultant to the legislature for the reapportionment, which always takes
place after [the] census. He asked me to do a major printout for all of Florida, which was
about two feet high. He had never used and was not familiar with the census the way it came


out by numeration district, and its relationship with the census maps. So while he was doing
it, he called me over to his home where he and his graduate assistant were doing a good
amount of basic work. I will never forget all of us sitting on the floor looking at the maps
and the printout, and the like. It was a successful reapportionment, which was done with the
data from the computer, and tapes for the first time. We had many requests [and] did many
runs, some for very large amounts of money--$1,000 $2,000. A whole development was
taking place in planning the development Florida. Of course they needed basic data on the
small areas within their planning areas. We did many requests for them, which became the
basis for their data bank for planning. We had many businesses who asked for data. The
Florida market was of course being penetrated by many groups and many corporations,
including health groups. The whole putting together of marketing concepts and census data
proved to be very advantageous to companies. So we dealt with almost all of the major
corporations, and certainly all of the major corporations in Florida. We of course had many
requests from the government--some federal, but many state agencies of course, and
practically had a monopoly on providing this kind of service.

K: Those tapes were loaded onto the main frame?

J: Yes, that is right.

K: Did you have a computer terminal here in the library?

J: No, [not] at that time in the early 1970s. We did the coding on the sheets, sent it to Systems, and
they had a terminal that they used to enter. They revised our work if we made an error and
slapped our little hands. It was quite interesting because we also started doing printouts for
legal cases that involved important decisions. So it all had to very accurate. Besides, we
were charging money for it. So it was an interesting experience from a librarian's point of
view. [It was] all done in Reference; it was sort of a team effort in Reference and Systems. I
found it very enjoyable, because I could foresee that the computer would be very important.
Since I had an advanced degree in social science and I had contact on the campus, I realized
now that the capacity for storage of numeric data and the new statistical packages that were
coming would change social science. [It would] certainly make it more quantitative than
ever before. And of course it had dealings with science too, because science could also
collect lab data in a computerized format and the like. But it was very successful and we
won an award. The governors group gave us an award for our service. And at the time, I
also started really being trained, by not only Census, but a small group of libraries ([well],
almost no libraries, but a small group of computer centers were starting this work too). We
were unique in that we put it in the library, where most of them had put it in their computer
center, or maybe in a social science institute. But it just started. So I went to the first
workshop on computerized numeric data in the U.S. that was given at the University of
Michigan, and I think it was three weeks. So I was well trained, but I was practically the
only librarian in the group. And the majority of the group were people from Michigan,


Princeton, Yale, etc; it was a very elite group of people. Later on, professional associations
were started; of course these same groups dominated them.

K: Did the use of this computer initiate the library administration towards thinking about the other
uses of computers? Or were they already thinking about that?

J: They were thinking about them, knowing that they wanted to go toward a computerized catalogue.
We started some dialogue searching at that time.

K: What year was this?

J: It was maybe 1972 or 1973. Basically, they realized that they would have to change over to the
Library of Congress classification, because that was going to be the classification that was
most easily used with the computer system.

K: So the two things were tied in together--computerization and classification?

J: Yes, they were tied in and I went to the meeting between Dr. Harrer and Willocks and the head of
technical services. Since the chair was ill, I went to the meeting as the assistant chair of
Reference. [We] finally decided to go into LC [Library of Congress classification].

K: When did you become the assistant chair of Reference?

J: I must go back and check, but it was in the early 1970s. Mrs. [Annette Lucille] Liles [Associate
Librarian and Chairman of Reference and Bibliography Department; Associate Professor of
Library Science] had lymphoma, a form of cancer, and was away [for] almost an entire year.
She came in for a few hours, maybe two days a week. So basically I was in her stead. At
first it was that I just did this, then I was appointed officially. But for quite some time
beforehand, because of her illness, I operated as assistant head.

K: So as the assistant head of Reference you were involved with it some how?

J: Yes, and [I was] much involved with learning OCLC, which came in with the systems that they
chose to create the computer system.

K: Where did they bring in these computers, first to Reference or to Cataloging?

J: No, [they brought them] to Cataloging. And we all went back and took training to be able to
search and catalogue.

K: So, Cataloging had the first computers in order to set up the computerized card catalogue?


J: Yes, that is it.

K: And as a representative of Reference, I guess you worked with them on doing that?

J: Yes. For example, we were consulted [on] some of the formats of the cards and any sort of
formatting problems [that occurred]. I had a chance to talk to the head of Cataloging herself.

K: So did they just work from the shelf list that they had over in Cataloging? In other words, you
did not have to use this card catalogue here?

J: Yes, at first they produced cards; instead of purchasing cards, they produced cards. And then of
course they started creating the NOTIS online catalogue, and so on.

K: Well, did they have to reach a certain point in that process before you got computers in the
Reference department?

J: Yes, but when they got a certain percentage of the catalogue in, we got computers.

K: When was that?

J: I would guess in about 1978 or 1979.

K: Was Library West the first one to get the computers, or did they go into all of the libraries?

J: I believe they went into all of the libraries, although Library West probably got the first. It was
always the one that had the greatest and biggest influx of traffic and was of course the main
site for referring people. So they always made sure we were certainly there first. This is
what I remember, but I will need to check that. It was certainly extremely helpful when you
can realize that people could be anywhere, in any of the branch libraries or satellites, and
find out what we had without coming back over here. We would have many complaints;
they would go over into Library East, but there was no catalogue over there. So if you went
to Architecture or Fine Arts you would have had only the Architecture and Fine Arts
catalogue. But this enabled you to see the complete picture.

K: So the card catalogue here in West was a complete catalogue?

J: It was called a union catalogue.

K: A union catalogue. Whereas the branches only had cards for their particular section?

J: That is the way it normally worked.


K: Well, how well were the computers accepted by the librarians?

J: I think, by the Reference Librarians, [they were accepted] rather well. We had access to the main
catalogue; it was still in its regular position. So we had a sort of security blanket, you know.
I do not remember the great resistance or feeling now. Perhaps the management would say
something else, but I personally thought it was a very exciting and interesting thing.
Although, even with the experience and the training I had, I did not really foresee the
impact--at first--on libraries and librarians. But I did know, for example, that the need for
data for research was a very important thing. And libraries for the most part did not want to
take that in. We did, mainly because of Dr. Harrer, who felt that it should be a part of any
library. So in that we had quite a unique decision. The other libraries of course, were doing
bibliographic [work] and were trying to start their own line catalogues. But to have this
tremendous numeric data and to do a service which required a knowledge of senses and
demography, as well as some of the software and at working with systems and to produce
things, was different. It was here in the library. So in that we really are, and have been,
almost unique. Now of course the circumstances have changed; others have added
collections to the library, or at least had librarians be responsible for certain of these numeric

After we got started with the census (and this proved to be successful), I think in around 1976 or
1977, the business school asked us if we would like to take over all of their major
computerized services. And we were literally ignorant of them and they did not do anything
to help us learn. All they did was to [provide] the person [who] was in charge. [It was]
usually an eminent professor who had the tapes in his office and who determined what
graduate students or faculty could or could not use them. These were tremendously
expensive subscriptions by the standards then. All of these that they had were brought over,
and suddenly we found ourselves responsible for them and responsible for working with the
students, dealing with giving access, and dealing with vendors like Compustat and the
Berkeley Options. Each [was] a very interesting experience, [although] at times very
frustrating and very interesting. So this had taken off.

And a third thing was that they got the [Inter-university Consortium for Political and Social
Research] ICPSR tapes. We had a subscription and it was in political science. And the
graduate students did it under the direction of one of the professors. This was placed here
and I was made responsible for it. So suddenly within the middle and late 1970s, we started
acquiring these through subscriptions and the like; [we acquired] these tremendous business
areas and of course, the great social science data banks from ICPSR. So I thought of
participating in the ICPSR, then [at] Michigan University and working with people on the
campus for this sort of thing. But, a whole collection was developing and we had to figure
out systems of control and the like. These were not catalogued; [they had] a tremendous use,
but [were] not catalogued. So it was sort of a medieval concept; we did not have a printout.


K: Once it started it sort of snowballed pretty quickly?

J: It certainly did. We developed quite a collection and I think we are one of the few libraries in the
country [who did]. Very few took it on as a major project and used Reference people as the
intermediaries. When the 1980 census came, [there] was a tremendous increase and we no
longer used the dual-lab software; we used other things. But systems had a very talented
programmer. He was interested in the census and it brought unique things into creating
research files for people. So we had the years behind us of working in this area and [a] really
very talented person. This was very interesting. We became one of the state centers. The
Census Bureau and others had set up the centers for diffusion. So we participated in that too;
[we participated in] all of these. So basically a whole major collection came in. What was
so unique about the census, for example, is that we have practically every file for all of the
United States. So you do research. And for example, in 1980, we were only able to buy a
majority of the files for the southeast. They had become much more expensive, if you can
imagine. We were asked to do a special project for the Corporation of Public Broadcasting,
which we did. They not only gave us a fee, but they provided us with the tapes of almost
every major file in the United States. So in a sense we had quite a unique collection; [we
had] a very large collection. So this is how it developed. And of course, now from 1990, we
had a data librarian, but she was attached to reference and to documents, but she did not stay
very long. And of course they automatically got the CD-ROM for the census upstairs in
documents. So they were really only able to do work from CD-ROM. But for research you
really need access to the tapes. We have the tapes but we do not have anyone in the library
now who does the work. Knowing I was going to retire, they wanted to put it in documents
any way. However, I cannot really tell you what transpired. I know that we no longer do
any of the work on the tape. But now major research libraries basically have data libraries,
like Stanford, Princeton and so on, and there is heavy use of these materials. And it is a very
complex and complicated area to work in. I enjoyed it very much and was very happy to
have the privilege of being part of it for quite a long time.

Oh, one other thing: we got so that FSU put the Florida data on line so we could go by the computer
in the late 1970s and the early 1980s, through the middle 1980s. And maybe you could do it
now--I have not done it in a long time--but you could retrieve [data] or send it over to the
computer center or you could download it right there on the terminal. Or you could transfer
it to any place in the SUS system, [to] any computer center. So you were basically
beginning to see that you had many options. And then they added CD-ROM. So anyway, I
felt very privileged to have worked and learned about this, and [I] always had someone to
work with me. In fact, the first person became one of the experts at the Census Bureau. He
went from here to the Census Bureau.

K: Who was that?


J: [It was] Tim Jones. He had a masters degree in demography from the University of Wisconsin, I
believe. So it was a nice challenge.

K: What about some of the other special collections? Were they developing in the mid-to-late 1970s
as well?

J: Your are speaking of what--Latin America or Rare Books?

K: Did any of them develop in the 1970s?

J: They were all basically developing in the 1970s and 1980s, because this was a time of great
development in the University and it was just a time in which there was a real desire to
become like all of the other big universities. So some of the special collections certainly did
develop. There was interest in the library of Florida history, there was interest in rare books,
[there was] interest in manuscripts and so on. But [there was] not so much interest in the
archives. That was a fairly late development as I remember, and so on. Of course the Center
for Latin American Studies was very prominent and important, and the administration
always recognized the Latin American library as a unique collection and they always
promoted it. And they promoted the librarian who is there too, in the sense that they would
have a high profile on them. For example, Dr. Harrer used to go to meetings in the
Caribbean and Latin America with a Latin American librarian, and had an interest in that.
So in that sense there was an interest.

K: Well, were the librarians able to keep up with the increased work load, with all of the collections
developing at that rate?

J: There was a great deal of work. I felt that, as a group, we were fairly stressed. Because basically
you can imagine, in the 1970s and early 1980s there was a tremendous increase in the school
population and in the graduate program. And of course new technology was coming in,
which we had to learn to use. But I am sure it was considered in the 1970s and early 1980s,
that state universities had many obligations to the state itself, to do services and reference
and census and so on.

One of the things I have not mentioned as a part of the service to the state, [was that] the Census
[Bureau] was a major one, since we worked with all of the government agencies, the state
government agencies, and so on. Dr. Harrer decided that since this was so successful, we
would do reference services and information services for people in the state for free (not the
census), which was a fee for service operation. So we set up a Florida information service in
one of the rooms. It was basically the center for Census contacts but [it was] also for any
reference questions. There was such a need for this, because people came into Florida in
droves; they were trying to penetrate the Florida market. Science is coming in, but [it was]

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mostly manufacturing, management, business, and that type of thing. There was a
tremendous increase of planning.

K: Was that walk-in or telephone business?

J: [It was] both, but mostly telephone. The questions were exceptionally difficult, but we worked on
them. I had an assistant and we did these in addition to the census, in addition to being the
assistant chair, and in addition to all of the other things you had to do. [laughter] But it was
basically great fun, because you had to respond very quickly and act as you did with the
Census [Bureau]. And so it was fun to see how a library could respond. And we did

K: What about inter-library loans? Originally you came here to help set that up. Did you get
weaned away from inter-library loans at some point?

J: Oh, yes. By the time we moved into this building I no longer had [any ties to the library loans].
Interlibrary- loan was supervised until eight or nine years ago by Reference. So Reference
supervised microforms and the reading rooms. So we had lots of things. I was always
interested in the impact of how to disseminate information.

K: Did they still have their Telex machine or were they getting on to computers?

J: About twelve years ago, the inter-library loan did away completely with the Telex and went to the
OCLC, because they developed a system. Of course by that time, our card catalogue was
moving along.

K: [Was it] in circulation? Were they computerized?

J: Yes, that is right. It was a process that took some time--module by module. So we went through
that. It almost seems as if it was just sort of a natural thing, but it was a tremendous
revolution in the libraries and the way things were done. So in that sense we had to operate
under some very stressful times. Especially if you were giving people a very high-level
service. And of course, remember dialogue came in the 1970s.

K: Were you searching that for a fee?

J: Yes, we searched. That was a fee thing for students. And we also searched for business and other
groups, for a fee.

K: Were you still doing some work with NASA?


J: We did less and less work as they established their own library. And they did establish their own
library. Now we still had contact with them and we had people who wanted to use their
library. For example, students who were designing the first space station [needed their
library], and I made arrangements for them to go. NASA had basically put its library under a
business franchise, and ran it. So we did get inter-library loans. However, we had less. By
that time they had their own special libraries and information systems set up. So we
certainly had less to do with them then than at the very beginning. But by the early 1980s, of
course, we were pretty much in step on our catalogue and the basics with dialogue and BRS
and training in some of these. Whereas Delores was the person who did most of the
searching, and we all learned.

K: Delores Jenkins?

J: Yes. But we all learned and knew some of the basics. So it was a time of tremendous training and
of trying to integrate. For example, we had the card catalogue until Dale came. So we had
to use both and it was straddling two different library cultures.

K: Did that take quite a while for the transition? Did students and faculty come in and still want to
use the card catalogue?

J: Well, the older faculty wanted to use the card catalogue; they did not have confidence in the
computer. The young immediately learned [on the computer] and did not want to use the
card catalogue.

K: So both groups were being serviced.

J: At that time they were being serviced. But it turned out.

K: Did you have any other particular projects or collections that you were working on?

J: I worked on a number of different departments that were formed. I was asked to develop the
Reference collection for them and [I was] also [asked to develop] a portion of the regular
collection. For example, when in Planning they developed the masters and Ph.D. program.
And I went over and took several classes. When we heard that we were going to have to
service very different students than any we had before, I went over and sat in on these two
courses. That was one thing, by the way, that we always did. During the 1970s they taught a
bibliographic instruction and people here in Reference taught the class. But we did a great
deal of bibliographic instruction. You can imagine, with the change in, for example, the
numeric data bases and the other changes, that was really necessary. So I did a lot of

K: Was that a required course or was it optional for students?

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J: It was required for certain departments.

K: Was that one of the first bibliographic instruction programs? When did that start?

J: I had the feeling that it started in the in the very early 1960s or maybe late 1950s. Dr. Goggin and
Annette Liles basically started it.

K: As a credited course?

J: Yes.

K: They do not teach that anymore.

J: Not at all, no. First of all, the administration decided that it was not worthwhile.

K: When did they stop doing that?

J: I believe it was Dale [Brunelle] Canelas [Director of University Libraries] who decided that or
maybe [it was] a little bit before hand, maybe at the end of Dr. Harrer's [career]. The
problem was of course having to do this, and having enough people who will do it. We had
quite a number of classes. Carol [Ritzen] Kem [Associate Librarian, Research and
Bibliography] was one of the coordinators of that. But we did much teaching; you can
imagine this group of all of the graduate classes in social sciences. But even people in
architecture [took the class]. Of course they were interested in marketing and construction.
So it was a busy time.

K: What about the ability to keep the faculty updated on what was being acquired by the library?
Did that become more difficult because of the workload?

J: It did because the workload was requiring so much. Because another thing that happened in the
late 1970s is that we began to spend money to buy numeric data sets--expensive ones that
were requested by the faculty. Both business and social science [requested them]. At first,
these cost several hundred dollars. Then they got to maybe $800, and then some of them got
to the $1,000 level. We kept abstracts of these, and in the beginning I would send the
abstracts around to various departments and interested individuals. That got to be
tremendous. And of course now the abstracts are in the catalogue so they could be read, and
the like. But yes, the work load was tremendous as I remember. But [it was] still very
exciting and challenging and very interesting.

K: Alright, before we leave the 1970s and go on to the 1980s and when Dale Canelas came in as
director, there is one thing I wanted to ask you about. Were you here the day that the


students, assistant or the LTA came in with the gun to shoot somebody? Could you tell us a
little bit about who that was and what happened?

J: [It was] David Shelley.

K: First of all, when was that? Do you remember what month or year that was?

J: May 1983. David Shelley was hired as a library technical assistant in around 1962, or something
like that. He worked in the social science room in the old Library West. Then [he] came
over with us and worked as technical assistant.

K: You mean in Library East?

J: Yes, thank you, [I mean in] Library East. [So, he] came over and so on. David had many
problems. First of all, he had a number that we did not know about, but he had certainly had
some physical problems. Later on he developed the bipolar mental illness, manic
depression. He also got involved with drugs and the like, but he had worked for twenty
years--maybe longer. For the majority of the years, I had been his supervisor. And there
were some very difficult times there, because he did get involved in very serious situations.

K: What kind of serious situations?

J: Well he got involved with groups who threatened to kill him and so forth.

K: [These] problems [were] outside the library?

J: Right. I always felt he was violent. I stopped supervising him, maybe three or four years before
this occurred, because he basically became rather violent about a classification. Well
something happened; I do not know. The classification people would come to upgrade his
classification, which I supported, but something went wrong and he wanted to pick a fight.
And he did have fights with some people. So, I did my many years of supervision and it was
very difficult, but then that was the end. We got a new chair and a new associate director of
the library and they basically decided that his behavior had become so bad. And it really
was quite bad; [he was involved in] drugs and the like. He had been in the psychiatric
[ward] over there at Shands. And then [there were] a number of incidents that were really
very provocative.

K: So in addition to his personal problems, he had been turned down for a reclassification which
would have been a promotion?

J: Well, I cannot remember whether the reclassification took place or not. But anyway this occurred,
that passed and then we got a new chair of Reference.


K: And that was [who]?

J: Peter Malanchuk [Librarian and Chairman, Reference and Bibliography], and [we got] a relatively
new associate director for public service, [R.] Max Willocks. The library administration
apparently decided that David Shelley just could not disrupt the library anymore. Of course
there were some very difficult things that happened that we will not go into. And things
outside created terrible problems. So they basically fired him. And within a few months we
were all meeting in the conference room, all of Reference with Mr. Willocks and the chair. I
remember [we were] all around the table.

K: All the Reference librarians?

J: And then all at once we heard three pops and someone said "Dr. Harrer is nailing something in his

K: So he was not in the meeting?

J: He was in his office, which was connected by a door to the conference room.

K: So the pops were in his office?

J: In his office. But I had been in the army and I knew immediately. Sherman [Linville] Butler
[Associate Librarian, Reference and Bibliography] had been in the army and I had been in
the army and we knew the sounds of shots. So in two seconds, in came David and he leaned
on the table and fired at least six shots.

K: [Was it] at someone in particular?

J: Well, at first he was trying to kill four people. He had four on his list. He was looking for Harrer,
Willocks, Peter Malanchuk and I believe one other. He fired at Peter, but he missed Peter
because Peter dropped to the floor. Then he went out. Mr. Willocks was seated behind me,
and so I would have had to have been killed in order for him to kill Mr. Willocks, most
likely. But Mr. Willocks's secretary came in just before this happened and said, "Your 10:
30 appointment is here." He did not have a 10: 30 appointment--it was an error--but it got
him out. And of course when he fired in this crowded conference room, then he went out
and he saw Mr. Willocks. And of course he planned to kill him, so he did fire at him, but he
had no bullets. So Mr. Willocks was saved by this. Then he went to the restroom to reload
and he had enough to kill all of us. The police said he had three cartridges.

K: Three clips?


J: Yes, Clips rather. Then he started to come back. But a student was there and saw the gun and
said, "Don't you want to give me that?" He did.

K: Just like that?

J: Yes. And then he went down to circulation. The police were here in the building, giving a
seminar on self protection on the fourth floor, so they came down and arrested him. Then we
saw Dr. Harrer being taken out, of course. It was a terrible, traumatic event. Later on they
had trauma therapy for us as a group. They brought in two psychologists. I think they were
graduate students, but they were being trained in trauma. They were very helpful, and for all
who needed it, they offered access to a psychiatrist, or psychologists, or counseling. I think
some took it. It really had a terrible effect on the people. One had slight mental problems,
and then became terribly worse.

K: A librarian?

J: [It was] an LTA. And this triggered, I think, a situation that could have developed. So it was
really a very difficult thing.

For those of us here who worked, we never got over it I think, as a group, that somebody would
want to kill us. And the fact that he waited until we were in the room, so that he could [kill
us]. Ultimately he did plan to kill all of us. At least that is how it appeared.

K: But, because there was that lapse of several months you were not aware that this might even

J: I was not aware, no. Except that I had told the administration that, to throw someone out who had
been working for twenty-two years without realizing the problems he had--the deep hostility
and the aggression he had always exhibited previously--was not a good judgement. Why did
they not put him on medical disability? Why did they not let him work somewhere away
from the public, away from us in some little comer, and see if he did not get a little better? If
not, why did they not put him on medical? He had ample [symptoms], with the bipolar
[illness], and he also had a terrible form of spinal arthritis. So he had many problems. But
we did learn one thing later on, after everything was over: that he had tried kill his mother
when he was eighteen.

K: How old was he at this time?

J: I would say he was in his late forties. So we did not know that of course. David had come from a
very prominent and intelligent family. His brother was a district attorney, an eminent
Florida lawyer. But the family would have nothing to do with him; from the inception that
he came here, he was quite alone. And also of course, [he was alone] during this difficult


thing. Later on, I understand that while he was in prison, he and his brother became much
closer. But he was quite alone.

K: Is he still in prison?

J: Yes. He was at Avon Park. A model prisoner, he has petitioned for parole many times. The
library, Dr. Harrer and the University have tried to make a case not to let him out. But it is a
great tragedy; it is a tragedy for all of us and for him. It did effect us a great deal. It is only
that the people are not here any longer who went through it. So it is not remembered, you

K: What did they do with Dr. Harrer, who was here?

J: What they did was to make Dr. Harrer a distinguished service professor. He started working in
collection management and he has made a marvelous comeback. It is amazing to see that a
person who was so damaged is able to do the things that he is able to do, and keep up the
humor and the positive outlook that he has. So it was really quite good.

K: So then it was time to get a new library director?

J: Yes. And the major thing that came through Dale Canelas was the creation of the collection
management group. So major people in Reference decided who would form, who would be
a part of, collection management, who would be a part of Reference. So it sort of split the
two. I was the first bibliographer appointed and they made Sam[uel Charles] Gowan as the
associate director of collection management. Sam had not had any experience at all in this
area. I had said some because I always had small funds as a Research librarian and so on.
Of course, we had always been a part of developing the Reference collection. So this was a
very interesting and, again, very stressful period, mainly because our administration had no
experience in either working in collection management or developing the department of
collection management. So I was involved with that, with Sam as the first person. The
library took over all of the funds, taking them out of the hands of the faculty and
immediately putting them into the hands of the bibliographer and the selectors. So all of the
procedures--everything--had to be learned and learned quickly. So some of you found
yourself responsible for hundreds of thousands of dollars of purchases in all areas. I think it
worked all right and we brought in Frank Ditrolio [Associate Librarian, Collection
Management], who had been head of collection at the University of Ottawa, which was a
small school, but Frank had real knowledge of this. So it was nice to get his point of view.

We developed circles where all the people within the circles were [from] social sciences. And [we]
also [developed a] liaison with the medical library and with finance, and with other groups.
And Reference was divided in general, and the collection management people were
supposed to do all of the advanced reference [work]. You did all of the advanced reference,


you do all of the advanced searching, computer searching, or whatever was required and so
on. You do all of the selection, and you do all of the advanced bibliographic instruction.
And we did participate for several hours on the Reference desk. I normally did four to six,
but all of this had to be worked out--all of these relationships and so forth. [It was] at a time
when there was not great expertise on the part of the management. So it was very
challenging, very interesting and deeply stressful, I think. It had some interesting effects.

K: What effect did it have on Reference, and the duties that a Reference librarian had?

J: Well of course, to be separated, Reference felt that it was no longer quite appreciated as much.
And little by little, the faculty who were interested in the library left. Somehow, one of the
major problems that should have been addressed is that they felt that the library
administration was no longer interested in their input. And our administration did not know
how to offset that, but I understand that the faculty moved anytime that you developed
friction in development. For example, I was reading a listserve for collection management at
Columbia, that it does help to create all sorts of collections, but little by little the faculty
loses interest for fields, [because they feel] that they are no longer appreciated in this
function. This is not a very good thing at a time when the libraries need all of the
constituencies that they can [get]. They are going through a transition with electronic
imprint so it can create an isolation. So it has some very good points and I found that I really
did enjoy it. It was very difficult, but I really did enjoy the area of selecting materials. I did
anthropology as well as being responsible for a number of different [things]. I mean, we did
not have anyone in sociology. So many of them entered disciplinary areas and were quite

K: Well, do you think that the Reference desk will turn into an information desk? Whenever
someone has a specific subject problem they are working on they would simply be referred
to that location?

J: I think that might be a sort of paradigm or a model, but there are too many questions. In other
words, if we had general reference and they could answer no questions about a biography or
analysis of Shakespeare's sonnets--the basic information--then I do not think collection
management could handle it.

K: So there is still going to be a role for Reference?

J: Oh, yes indeed. And the question is, what is the role with the shrinking budgets? What is the role
of collection management? My own feeling is that the future of librarians lies with the
teaching function because of the complexity of all of the printed materials, as well as the
computerized material and computerized access, and just the complexity of libraries and
research methodology in general. The real role for librarians is that teaching be much more
emphasized. But also the selection of the materials [is important]. However, I think that if


they wish to bring the faculty back, then ways will have to be found to appreciate their input
and make them comfortable. We were very lucky. We had no major [problem] in taking
over the authority for purchasing. We had no great political hassles, and we could have. So
this was steered through well, and there were many different times when policies changed
sort of radically during this. For example, in anthropology, it was first decided that all of us
must interview every member. They insisted, so I started out and I got through my thirty-
two faculty members in anthropology. By that time they had decided that it could not be
done fully. But in the very beginning, the administration insisted. So we learned a lot of
interesting techniques of interviewing and advanced interviewing, which is quite an art as
you know.

K: I am finding this out.

J: But I was interested in the combination of advanced reference, which I had always done. But how
to define advanced is a very difficult problem: at what level and when and where. I did
enjoy selecting the materials very much, and working with and developing all of these
people who are working. We all developed at the same time and helped one another create a
network that could cover the vast areas of social science, and all the formats.

K: Well, you had an advantage because of your background in social science, but when you give a
new collection management librarian that responsibility, it means they need to be familiar
with their subject area.

J: It really helped. For example, one of the things we did [involved] the complex area of
psychology. Because of course it has so many merits, it is such a large faculty; it has the
largest undergraduate, and I think it has one of the largest graduate programs. And it has so
many different areas: developmental, clinical, etc, in counseling and psychology. So we got
someone who had a little graduate training in psychology and I worked with him. We set up
the whole relationship with them, and how to do this. I thought it was really very interesting.
And work has been done. I am quite fascinated by it. But you do have to have someone,
and he had some background and an interest. And if not, [you should have] someone who
can sit in classes and/or read and so on. You must have that interest and you must keep this
dialogue going with the faculty and students.

K: Well, do you think it is a problem with the faculty seeing a librarian who may not have that
knowledge, being the person who is selecting books for them?

J: Yes. When you select materials and spend large sums of money they expect that you will have
some good experience, that requires respect. Therefore, you realize we have got three
Ph.D.s. Well because Frank has one, we have three Ph.D.s in humanities. Blake Landor
[Assistant Librarian, Collection Management], a classic who went to Toronto. Of course
Charles Hixson [Assistant Librarian, Collection Management] in history. He was from


Berkeley. He went to UCLA and went to Berkeley. So you have the beginnings of a highly
educated and a credentialed group of people to do this. The question is, what do you do with
them when you do not have funds any longer? So it was an interesting problem. I did all of
the numeric data bases. In other words, I served as the data librarian, or bibliographer, so to
speak. I could just spend weeks on that. Demands are so considerable, when you take on
responsibilities of a faculty. And there are at least a thousand faculty in social sciences. But
they somehow, between them or among them, selected the most productive. You really have
to take on a tremendous job. But in all, I found it challenging and thought I learned a great
deal from it. There was much too much work, but it was quite a learning experience.

I went to the seminar and workshop on rare and out-of-print books, so I learned something about that
area at the University of Denver. One thing I liked about gerontology, is that I had to learn a
whole new area, not only of the ordinary, but of all the gray literature. And [I learned] some
of the literature--at least in general and science--like Biology of Aging, and [I learned] some
general things in geriatrics and how to use data bases that the Medical and social sciences

K: So what made you decide that this was the point at which you were going to retire?

J: I think that the library had changed in its mission. It had become so involved with the desire to be
recognized as a top flight sort of institution, that its interest in service diminished. I think
most of us who have had any experience would agree that this is the thing, and I am more
interested in service than I am the development of bureaucracy and the concepts of
management. I do not think bureaucratic management is a very viable one for the library.
At least, that is my opinion. But I think many people would feel that. But when libraries
sort of become things in themselves, then the librarians sort of become things in themselves;
they are interested in one professional organization or their publication. I mean, formally,
this is not the thrust of the library as it was, in a state institution. So I just felt that I was
more interested in working somewhere where there was a sense of usefulness and the library
is a service institution. I did not feel that was a very strong thing here. Secondly, the amount
of work increased and increased. Much of the work I did see was really not very appropriate
for a service-oriented place. Thirdly, after thirty-two years, it really is time to change and to
do something different, or to specialize in something that you might be interested in. But I
just felt that I no longer really wished to work in the environment that we were set in then. I
mean, it was just much too fragmented; it was not a team. And the philosophy is really very
different, from the entire time that I had been here.

K: Is that a change that occurred gradually, or do you feel that once Dale Canelas became director it
was emphasized a great deal?

J: That is right; I think it was almost immediate.


K: So they [had] what we might call a corporate culture and emphasis on the librarianship?

J: Yes, exactly. [There was] sort of an emphasis on bureaucracy and "management" and so on.

K: In committees?

J: Yes.

K: In paperwork?

J: Yes.

K: In statistics?

J: Of a kind of statistics, yes.

K: Did this eat away at the percentage of the time you had to devote to service?

J: Well, I feel that service and the idea of the library as an intellectual source is very important.

K: What about the relationship with the faculty and the students, and the way that assignments are
made in class that may not include library work like it once did?

J: Well, what we found is, of course, there was a tremendous drop off in the interest of the faculty
and the interest in their sending their students here. And that continues. There is enough, of
course, to keep everybody busy. But I mean, if they really utilize the library it would be a
tremendous thing; [it is] difficult to meet the needs of these students. Another thing is that I
think the teaching role is very important and for quite some time it was not emphasized. It
is something very different from "one is the manager, one is this," and so on.

Basically, I do not see that the library is managed better now than before. But I certainly do see a
tremendous internalization of sub-goals, in the sense that the committee becomes more
important than almost anything else or the hierarchy becomes more important than anything
else. In other words, the whole spirit of a team which you must have now to make
something work well is not there. I say this [and] I feel this. And of course it could be
because that just happens everywhere in the University because of the bigness. But you
really have to work at this as an administration, to make sure that this does not happen. This
is the worst thing that can happen, this creation of all of these separate entities and groups
and so forth. So it is really very important. I am interested in libraries, but I am not sure
with the total bureaucratization and the concept that a corporate management will ever really
be able to serve now as a service, a tremendous service, an intellectual thing. I do not know;
we will see. And of course, it has some really good things going--electronic things. Now,


[to] people [you] do not need, [you] can say, "OK, I have trouble with you; I do not need
you." I mean that sort of thing. "You are interested in a meeting more than you are serving
me?" [You address people] directly, and so on.

K: When did the librarians get faculty status, and did that add to this situation?

J: They got status right before Dale came. Or they were at least considering it. I was on the search
committee, and I asked her what this would mean. But at the time she did not believe
librarians would have faculty status, because they do different work and they should not be
compared. Well of course the moment she came the administration apparently wanted to be
faculty status. So then one publication and service on committees became just what you put
down on your resume. So I am not sure what impact it has had. Well, one thing for me is
that I could go on to phased retirement. You cannot do it unless you are faculty. So I do not
know. Supposedly, it was supposed to bring the salaries up. But if you are here as long as I,
your salary is so compressed anyway, and then deeply depressed. And of course when the
new administration came, they were not interested in bringing up the salaries of the older
people; it was the young [they wanted to help]. So basically, it was the creation of a sort of
management corporate structure, which is not, as I said, very conducive.

K: So you retired in 1992?

J: Yes, and I was supposed to retire at the end of January, and Rosa [Quintero] Mason [Latin
American Collection] and I retired at the same time. But we had hoped to get a three percent
raise, which was important. And [neither] she nor I received it, because nobody received it.
Then the rumor had it that it would come out in February. So we decided to stay until
February. That did not go around, so that was the end of that.

I have always enjoyed doing new and different things, so, I decided that it would be interesting to
see what phased retirement in the library would do. Can you keep up some of your
intellectual, and other interests as a librarian? And can you do something that might

K: So you got involved with the gerontological project?

J: Yes, I had always worked with the head of gerontology a great deal. So he asked me if I would
like to participate as a member of the research team and I had never done that as a practicing
member. Research was evolved out of the concepts where the information is--the literature
and so on--and participation with ideas. And of course, having a social science background,
the basic concept, [helped]. But [my] knowledge in numeric data and statistics was
significant too, because that is pretty important. So I did that and enjoyed it. I also sat in on
a class. First of all, they gave me an office over in Turlington and I sat in on a class in law.


[It was a] very funny class, by the way. It introduced me to legal materials that I had never
known and I did the searching and work with some of the staff and faculty members.

K: We are almost finished here, but I was just wondering what some of your other interests might

J: Well I have always enjoyed music. So in my middle fifties I took up the flute. [I] still take
lessons and I play in the community band. I am not terribly talented, but it is fun. I also play
for pleasure; we are doing a concert this Sunday. I volunteer at the Ham [Museum] and I
find that many of my retired friends like to play bridge. I have contact with a number of the
people with whom I worked, who were here as faculty or staff. I am still sometimes treated
as a part of the faculty. For example, if anthropology has a meeting and a number of social
gatherings, I go. I receive invitations as I did [before]. The honor of my presence is
requested at the Department of Health Science Education banquet, because I worked with
Steve [M.] Dorman [Associate Professor of Health Science Education]. [He] came in my
group, and so on. So the things that gerontology has, I do. And I will travel. I would like to
do some sort of research, working on a conspectus. I would like to do some special things
perhaps, but I do not feel the pressures now. I am anxious to keep up with some of the
computer developments--not all of them--because I plan to work at home a bit. This is my
computer system here and I will take it home. I have a modem and the like, and I have
access to all of the computer systems. And I read.


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