• TABLE OF CONTENTS
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 Copyright
 Interview







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1 UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Interviewee: Edward Palmer Lincoln Interviewer: Marian Ludlow March 3, 1987 Since both the interviewee, Dr. Edward Lincoln, and the interviewer, Marian Ludlow, have the same last initial, Dr. Lincoln will be identified as L: and Ms. Ludlow as M:. M: This is an interview with Dr. Edward Palmer Lincoln at hi s office at the University of Florida. Dr. Lincoln is an a ssociate professor of agricultural engineering. The interview is being conducted by Marian Ludlow, and a final copy will be kept in the archives of the Oral History Department at the University of Florida. Today is March 3, 1987. Ed, where were you born and when? L: I was born in October of 1930, at the beginning of the Depression, in New York City. I lived in New York for approximately twel ve years part-time. We used to spend summers at a farm in Wareham, Massachuse tts that had been in the family for many years. That was always the high point of the year--to take off for the Wareham house and be up there on the farm. My memories of New York are not very pleasant. It was not a pretty place back in the Depression. And being too young to appreciate the finer aspects of the town--although the museum s were good, and I did miss them when I left--I was very glad when we picked up stakes and left New York in 1943. I was twelve years old when we moved to Wareham. M: Who were your parents? L: My father was Dr. James R. Lincoln, and my mother was Helen Palmer Lincoln. My father was born in Wareham in the very hous e we went to live in, and my mother was born in New Orleans. Her father was Edward C. Palmer, owner of the Palmer Paper Company, which still does business in New Orleans. Her father died when she was seventeen years old. She went to Vassar [College in Poughkeepsie, NY], and my father went to Harvard [University in Cambridge, MA], where he earned his bachelor's degree, as well as an M.D. He was always very attached to Wareham; he was very glad to get out of the big city and back to Wareham. I think he felt that he was getting too old for competition in New York. He wanted to be a small-town doctor, so he became one. In fact, he became the kind of small-town doc tor we do not have anymore, the kind who used to go on house calls, provide the care that you needed in your home, and charge three dollars. He carried all the modern te chnology around in a little black bag. That

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2 was the medical technology of the time. M: He also may have come on a sleigh in the winter, right? L: Yes, he did go in the sleigh a few ti mes during gas rationing--when there was snow on the ground. We had the horses and a sleigh. That made news. M: How about your brothers? L: I had three brothers, all younger than I. James Rufus Lincoln, Jr. is a civil engineer and lives in Denver, Colorado. His family is quite interesting. He and his wife Marty are avid skiers, and his son Edward became an expert skier. In fact, he became a world champion acrobatic skier in the early 1970s. Edward married Jonie Torry, who was the women's world champion acrobat ic skier at the time. Ed and Jonie's daughter Ann is national-championship caliber, although I do not know if she has actually won a championship. Rufus and Marty are both on the ski patrol of the Arapaho Basin. I think they are at Copper Mountain this year, if they are still active skiers. Their son Bob just retired as a naval officer. Bob's wife Kerry is a career naval office r. He decided to get out of the navy, since his wife was so much in the navy. Her father is an officer in the navy, I guess. Her maiden name was Jones, and she is a direct descendant of John Paul Jones, the naval hero. I have two other brothers. One is Tom, who lives in Pasadena, California. He is a chief engineer from Microdot. They make fi ber optics and a lot of materials for the military. He is married to Jennifer, or was. They have one son, Jamie. I have another brother who lives in Hawaii, Peter C. Li ncoln. He has a bachelor's degree in mathematics and a Ph.D. in linguistics. He is one of the few non-nat ive, white speakers of the Bonani language of Bougainville. He is married to a Japanese girl named Satako, and they have one son, Ken Koga. They are living in Honolulu right now. M: Yours is a well-educated family. L: Yes, I guess we are pr etty well educated. Pete is doing good work, or at least he was when he was in linguistics. He is now teaching mathematics, and I think he is involved with the navy, teaching computer science. Computer science is really his thing because it combines linguistics and mathematics. He is probably going to stay with that and not go back to the jungle islands of the Pa cific. He did spend some time in New Guinea. M: Okay, we have talked about your parents and siblings. How about your family--Gloria and the kids? L: My wife Gloria is a Filipina, and we hav e two kids: Edward Palmer Lincoln, Jr., who is thirteen, and Laura Capco, who is now eigh t. Gloria wife is a biochemist. She has a bachelor's in radio chemistry from the Univer sity of the Philippines, and a master's and a

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3 Ph.D. from M.I.T. She is actually into nutritional biochemistry and food science. She worked on the manufacture of single-cell protein from ba cteria or carbohydrate substrate, which has always struck me as a very interesting field. M: When you moved to War eham, life changed as far as your activities, from living in the city to living in the country--climbing trees I remember tree houses and that type of thing. L: It did not change totally, because we were there during the summe r, anyway. But it changed in kind of a drastic way in that we arrived during the Second World War, and the house was in disrepair. The furnace brok e down the first morning we were there. We were in the midst of gas rationing and meat rationing, and there was nothing new that you could buy. The farm was run down. We made it into a real farm--we bought cows, we had horses all the time, we bought and raised chickens, and we had pigs. Within a very short time after we a rrived, my brother Rufus and I were full-fledged farmers after school. That was a bit hea vy on us because it was a seven-day-a-week job. It was during the wa r, and we needed the produce, eggs, milk, butter, and cream. In fact, one of our cows died. It strangled it self on a tether, and I came back from school one day and found it nearly dead. So we butc hered the cow on the spot, and we ate the cow. M: You butchered it, or did you have a butcher do it? L: Well, we both did it. We did a lot of but chering. We butchered the pigs, too. We did have help with the cows, I remember. But I re collect that that co w did not taste very good. M: I would not think so. L: The life was good, as fa r as I was concerned. I never did like New York. I do not think New York is a good place for an active kid to grow up. I really enjoyed the country life and the farm life. I was always a scientist at heart. In fact, all the time in New York during my grade school years, I had a micro scope and chemistry set. I took chemistry lessons when I was in fifth grade. I was a lways interested in scienc e, and it was kind of hard to practice biological scienc es in New York. There just was not much open country. I remember going out to collect specimens in Central Park in the lakes--they were pretty dead. There was not much to be seen. Living in Wareham was a great change. It expanded my horizons, and I really took to it, increasingly so. That was bad in a wa y, because it kind of detracted from school work. When I arrived, I had a very good backg round from Trinity school in New York. I went to Wareham High School, and I got to be less than a good student. I spent too much time out in the countryside fishing, hunt ing, and collecting things. The country was educational, but it did not show up on the report card.

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4 M: What about your house? When was that built? L: The house itself was probabl y built in 1690-something. The first record of it is a deed in 1710 when it was sold, which means that is was older than that; it probably dates to the 1600s. That was 277 years ago. It was bought by the Lincoln family in the late 1700s, and it is been in the fa mily essentially ever since. For awhile it was in the hands of our relatives, I think the Schells, and then it was returned to the Lincolns. We have been there so long that it is called Lincoln Hill--it is on the top of Lincoln Hill. It has gradually been enlarged--in fact, too much so. It was salt-box house with all the old decor. It was built by a shipbuilder, so it has nautical-type shelves in the corners and nautical-type beams in the roof. The old part of the house is very distinctive. Some of the window panes are blown-glass window panes The furniture of the period is quite the charming part of the house. An addition wa s put on in back--a kitchen, dining room, and a second floor. That enlarged it to about 3, 000 square feet, I would say, so it has a lot of rooms, a lot of windows, and a lot of doors. But I think it detracts from the original house itself. Then, in 1910, it was enlarged again by my grandfather, James Minor Lincoln. It now has something like seventy-five windows, ei ght doors, eighteen or twenty rooms, three attics, and three cellars. It is something of a monstrosity, but it is still historic, and many of the things in it are of historical interest. My grandfather James Minor Lincoln had a great interest in Abraham Lincoln, so he had a great number of Abraham Lincoln statues, portraits, pictures, and me morabilia all over the house. M: What was the relationship in the family? L: We tried very hard to establish some connection between us and Abraham Lincoln. I think the weak point in t he connection is that Abraham Lincoln had an obscure past. Nobody knew exactly what his genealogy was, or at least my gr andfather was not able to pick it up. But he did establish that ther e were only four Lincolns who were related, and that they came to America in the early 1600s Both of the Lincolns in this country were descended from these four cousins, I believe. That does make it look as though we are all related. Another relative is the Roosevelt family, Helena Roosevelt, who was closely related to Franklin Delano Roosevel t's wife Eleanor. She was also a Roosevelt before she got married, so, in fact, we are related to both, but more closely to the Roosevelts. M: Did you finish high school in Wareham? L: Yes, I finished high school there in 1948. M: Then what did you do? L: Well, in those days, it was quite uncomm on to go to college, at l east in that part of

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5 the world. It was an economically depressed area. No male graduate from my class went to college the first year. I know some of the women went to college when they graduated, but none of the men did. That was not unusual for then, although it is unusual now. In fact, even by the time my br other Pete graduated, more than half went to college. But none of the men from my graduating class went to college. I went to the north woods; I went to Maine. The first work I did was harvesting cranberries, and I made a lot of money. We worked long hours, sometimes a hundred hours a week, for ninety cents an hour. I re member making ninety dollars in a week, which was good money in those days. I pocketed most of it. With that money, I bought traps and camping equipment, and I went to the unorganized territory of eastern Maine in the fa ll of 1948. My father went with me. We had a new aluminum canoe, and we went into a place called Hot Hole Pond, which belonged to Les Goodwin. The name is rat her peculiar because it was one cold hole between those mountains. My father and I went in at night, although we did not intend to go in at night. That was on my birthday; I th ink it was my eighteenth birthday. We went up the Dead River in this canoe on a cold Oct ober night until we came to Hot Hole Pond. Then we put the canoe into the pond and paddled across. I had been there before, and I am trying to remember where that cabin was. There was nothing but sheer darkness ahead of us, but we managed to fi nd the cabin in the middle of the night. We camped there, and eventually set up anot her camp. I started my trapping, and my father went back to Wareham and left me there for seve ral weeks by myself. This had been my dream for many years, to become a wilderness trapper. M: What did you trap? L: I trapped mink. Again, it brings hom e the difference from then to now in the economy and the dollar. Wild mink was selling for forty dollars a pelt, and that was big money then. There were a lot of peopl e in the woods trapping mink, so I had competition. I like to think I knew where t he competition was, and I do not think they ever found my traps. But I remember sp ying on these guys and s eeing them walk down the rivers checking their traps. Actually, the pressure was too great and the price was too high, and the market coll apsed while I was in the woods. As a result, I got only about one-tenth of the value that I expected to get for the few pelts I had caught. So it was really a financial bust, but I learned a lot. M: Is that all you caught was mink? L: Mink and muskrat were the only salable pelts at that time. M: Muskrat? People ate muskrat? L: Oh, yes.

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6 M: Did you ever eat mink? L: No, I was not that hungry. Or carnivor es. We had a thing about eating carnivores. I do not know why, but it generally was not done. We had a problem eating rats, too. But muskrats were very good eating. There was a lot of good fishing, and I did a lot of deer hunting. It was a good trip. I was there until the end of November, maybe later. It was not a great financial venture, but it could have been. In t hose days, if the prices had remained up, I could have made some money. But I gave up trapping as a profession. Also, I was bothered by the trapping itse lf. The usual steel traps caught the animal by the foot. Even though in those days we did not have t he same sentimentality [as today concerning cruelty to animals], it did bother me to be trapping these small animals with my steel traps and just selli ng the skins for dollars. It was not the thing to do if you are bothered by that, and I remember it di d bother me. I gave up trapping as a commercial venture, but eventually I went into it as a scientific vent ure, which was quite different. That was in 1948. I got a job at t he local shipyard in Wareham in the winter of 1949. M: You mentioned Mr. Goodwin. L: Leslie Goodwin owned the shipyard and the camp. He was a great benefactor at that time, and he still is. He is still alive and is a healthy eighty-eight years old now. I saw him last December with a gun on his arm hunting duck. He is a tough old guy and a very shrewd businessman. He came to Wareham in 1940 or 1941, during the war. He bought the Cape Cod Ship Building Company and sold ships to the coast guard. He made some money on a military contract. W hen the war was over, he was the first to start making fiber glass boats. He converted al l of their operations to fiber glass and has continued to this day making fiber glass sailboat s. He became quite well-to-do. It was a good business. His son Gordon Goodwin now runs the business, but Mr. Goodwin is still active in the business, too. They are two of the best salesmen. Les Goodwin and I used to go fishing a lo t. We went tuna fishing and striper fishing on one of his old coast guard launches that he made, and we had a great time. I have high regard for him. My brother Rufus also went with us; the three of us spent a lot of time duck hunting, deer hunting, and fishing. We learned a lot from Les. M: After you finished your trapping, what then? L: We put up the small hous e down on Hathoway Road. My father wanted to take the trees that blew down in the hurricane of 1945 and make a house out of them. So while I was working at the shipyard, we transported a bunch of those logs down to the shipyard and cut them on a big circular saw down ther e into boards. We then transported the boards by horse and wagon back to Hathow ay Road and put together that little twenty-eight square foot house on Hathoway Road. My brother Rufus, Al, and I put that house together over the winter.

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7 Come springtime, I decided to go to coll ege. But more pressing was a trip to Mexico. I decided to go down to Mexico and see the southern part of the world. I had spent all of my time in New England (Maine) and coal country. So I went down to Mexico with a friend named Bill Marburg, and we had a good ti me. We took a 1941 Ford down there and drove through Mexico. It was quite pictur esque. That would be in the summer of 1949. Mexico was less of a tourist trap and was less economic ally depressed than it is now. We got as far as Acapulco in the old car. Then we were robbed, and I lost all my money. I had fallen asleep on the beach one night, and when I came back, the car windows were broken. I went to the police stat ion, and they said they would look for my money and my goods, but they added they did not have much of a chance of finding them. So we headed back from Acapulco to Laredo, Texas. We tried to make it in one day. What happened then was we got in an accident in the desert just south of Laredo, about eighty miles south of the border, in the middle of the night. The car rolled about three times. I happened to be sleeping in the back s eat. We were carrying a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the back of the car, and I got thrown around like a pea in a pod. I really lacerated my back on these bottles, which were just completely smashed. We were in the desert, the car was upside down, and I reme mber crawling out of the window. The lights were still on, and it was raining. I felt my back, and blood was just pouring out and handfuls of broken glass were sticking out of my back. I felt faint, so I laid down. To make a long story short, we eventually got picked up. I went to a first aid station, and the doctor, who was very competent I t hought, sewed up those cuts, but a good bit of the glass remained inside. About six months later, I began to have pains in my back, so they took x-rays. They thought these things they saw in my back were bone, but actually they were pieces of glass that looked very much like bone. I had an operation for that, and I eventually recovered. We finally made it to Laredo, Texas. My friend Bill Marburg was thrown in jail because the Mexicans claimed that he wa s trying to murder me, which was an interesting slant. Until he could be cleared of attempted murder, he was under arrest. M: What had he done that made them think he tried to murder you? L: This is the way the la wyer explained it. They said when that kind of an accident occurs, the immediate impression of the police is that it is probably planned. He said, "In my country, there are many crimes. You w ould not understand this, bu t we look through every suspicion when somebody is hurt in an a ccident like that and t he other person is not hurt. We look with suspicion on that." We eventually got back home. Following t hat, I went to the University of Montana in

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8 Missoula in the fall of 1949 and majored in wildlife technology. One reason I wanted to go to the University of Montana was becaus e it was open country with good hunting and fishing. I was interested in wildlife technonlogy as it was considered scientific. In those days, science was not the same thing it is now. Even in the post-war years, research scientists were generally university professors or were working for some kind of institute like the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. Ph.D.s were very rare; many college professors did not have a Ph.D. It seemed to me at that time that wildlife technology, which was really law enforce ment and a kind of field biologist position, was a better paying job and a more interesting, more st able job [than science]. I was wrong. So I eventually changed my major to pure science. After two years at the University of Montana, I transferred to the University of Arizona. M: Why did you transfer? L: Well, I thought the cold weather was something that everybody put up with, but I think I got my fill of it in M ontana. We spent a lot of time elk hunting, which is a very vigorous sport. It gets you way out away from t he city. We spent a lot of time up in the mountains. When I say we, I mean my roo mmate, Joe Blackburn; another friend of mine, Robert Kerr; and me. We hunted for elk, which was very interesting. The ROTC at the university issued us M-1 rifles and military cartridges to use for hunting. They figured that was a good thing for young office rs, and it was. We used to go with M-1 automatic rifles, 30-06. I shot a couple of elk and a deer. I remember we wounded an elk way up in t he fish creek area in the Rockies quite late one evening. The bullet had gone through the hi nd quarter of this cow elk, and it was bleeding badly. I felt badly about t hat. I did not want to lose this animal. But the cow kept climbing up over this ridge and down the far side to the north, way north of where we intended to go. It got dark, and I kept on chasing the animal. The slope was so steep that I could reach out with my rifle and t ouch the top of a fifty-f oot tree--that is how vertical it was. This elk kept going. It got dark, terribly cold, and the wind was blowing, so I finally gave up. I hated to do that. I followed my own tracks back to the top of the ridge. By this time, it was after dark; it must have been 5:00 in the ev ening. I used to dress lightly because elk hunting is very active hunt ing. I usually wore a t-shirt, a light turtleneck sweater, an army shirt over t hat, and wool pants. I was carrying some chocolate and an apple in my pocket for lunch or a snack. I sat down on the ridge and had a piece of chocolate and the apple. It was so cold that the apple was frozen and the chocolate was like a piece of rock. But the th ing that really got to me is when I was sitting there, my t-shirt froze to my skin. I figured it was about ten below zero with a fairly strong wind. Meanwhile, my friend, Joe Blackbur n, who had stayed on the top of the ridge, was virtually frozen to death. I said, "Joe, we ought to go down this slope over to Fish Creek and take Fish Creek back to the camp instead of trying to go back the way we came."

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9 He said, "I do not want to do that. I do not think we should do that because we have never been there before." I said okay, so we followed our tracks to get back. I think we got back at about 10:00 that night. Those camps were such that they never went out to look fo r you until the next day. You cannot blame them; they had made it home, so you should, t oo. It was not really for amateurs. That country was for good-old boys, hunters who knew what they were doing. Well, Bud Bacon, who just died this year, ran that camp, and he knew that country better than anybody. I told him about trying to go down what I thought would be a shortc ut to Fish Creek, but he said, "Oh, no. People try that every year, and we usually end up pulling their bodies out in the spring." They would freeze to death. It was about fifty miles, and the way we came was less than twenty. Anyway, I took a dim view of the co ld weather in Montana. I began think that maybe Arizona is the more sensible place to be, and I think I am right. I went to Arizona, and I majored in zoology first. I took a speech c ourse, and the teacher was Mike Mansfield. He was a fledgling young politician. In fact, he was not even in the senate at the time; he was a local politician. But he was a very good teacher. He gave me the only D I ever got in my college career, but I still thought he was a good teacher. As you know, he became a famous senator. He is now the ambassador to Japan. M: So you were in Montana for two years. L: I was there for two years. It was an in teresting time, but I was glad to leave. M: What did you study there? Zoology? L: Yes, but the curriculum was called wildlif e technology. Actually, it was mainly pure science--physics, botany and zoology; it was a very good curriculum. But then I went into zoology as a pure science at the University of Arizona at Tucson. That was in 1951. I graduated in 1953 with a bachelor's in zool ogy and minors in botany and anthropology. While I was there, I managed to get about $1,500; my aunt died and left me a government bond that was worth about $1,500. This was in 1952. Well, that summer, I decided to go to Africa, so I bought what they call an open-jaw, round-trip ticket from the U.S. to Douala, Cameroon. It was called French Cameroon in those days. That ticket picked up again in Johannesburg, South Africa. The whole stretch across central Africa from just below the hump of the west coast of Africa, which is called the bight of Africa, to Johannesburg was open. I decided I was going to hitchhike and do whatever worked. It was about 2,000 miles. The path was from the bight of Africa across the Congo into Rhodesia [present-day Zimbabwe] and then into [the Republic of] South Africa. I stayed in Douala for about a week, I guess. I took along a pack and an old Kodak camera and some film. I was lucky, because an expediti on for the Natural History Museum in conjunction with the National Geographic [Soc iety] happened to be staying at the Akwa

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10 Palace Hotel, right where I staked camp. I got some expert advice from Walter Webber. M: Who was Walter Webber? L: Walter Webber was a famous artist who wo rked for the society at that time. I think a lot of his pictures were illustrations, even on the cover of thei r magazine. I had a model-k camera, a big, old, hand-crank 16mm Kodak. Volkmar Wenzel, who was a photographer for National Geographic at the ti me, gave me some good tips on how to shoot pictures. I needed them, and they helped a lot. I remember one incident in Douala that wa s interesting. (There are a couple I cannot tell about.) I was always impressed with the wa y they served wine at ten or twenty cents a glass at these sidewalk cafs. They had th is big barrel of wine, and they would tap a glass for you, and it was very cheap. I dr ank several glasses one night after dinner and then walked downtown. The Akwa Palace Hotel was on a hill on the edge of town. It had gotten late, so I started walking back up the hill to the Akwa Palace. Well, I got very tired climbing that hill, and I saw an open pasture (I think it actually wa s a vacant lot) that was covered with very tall grass. It was a hot African night, and I t hought I would just lie down there for a few minutes and relax. So I laid down on my back in the middle of this little field, but I did not go to sleep. Soon I heard people moving; I heard f ootsteps a ways off, and they seemed to be coming from several directions--and toward s me. They were very quiet, hushed footsteps. Eventually, there were four or five people crowded around me standing above me. I was still lying on my back, but by this time I was pretending that I was asleep. There was a big silence, and then I heard a match strike. I could even see the light of the match through my closed eyelids. The ma tch came down closer and closer to my face. They were trying to see if I was asl eep or dead--or drunk. Just as the match came maybe six inches from my face, I summed up a ll the energy I could an d jumped up in the air and let out as loud a yell as I could. I just sprang from the ground and took a couple of these guys with me. They were all hunc hed over me, all bent over. Boy, they exploded in all directions! They took off into the darkness, and I never saw them again. But I am sure I was just inches from losi ng my wallet and getting a knife in my ribs. White men were good targets. They st ill are in that part of Africa. There was a third guy who taught me a lot, Donald Carter, a very famous zoologist from the Natural History Museum. The Afri cans collected animals in those days, and the museums sent in zoos and other agencies to buy them. We went around to several of the collections. That was a big business in that era. Anyway, the crew from National Geographic packed up all their gear and went back to New York. I took a train from D ouala south to a little town called Eda. It was not really a town, but a small station, just a little circular brick building. I had a 100-pound duffle bag that I carried on many trips. I got off at Eda, put t he bag in this little circular cement building, and sat down on it. I noticed that there was a dirt road leading down the hill into the jungle from this little clearing outside the railroad tracks. The tr ain went to Yaound,

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11 which is the capital city of French Cameroon. Gradually, nat ives from the environs of this little station began to collect. These blacks were not really coming to greet me; actually, we just stood around and looked at each other. I thought that I was in kind of a spot. Here I was with no food and no transportation, and I am sitting here along the side of the railroad tracks waiting fo r the train, which would not come back for two days. I decided my best move was to go on down that road. I was about to pick up my pack and leav e when I heard a truck coming. Up that road came a Dodge Powerwagon with New York lic ense plates on it. These two big, strong-looking guys got out and l ooked at me. They were really surprised to see me. One of them asked, "What are y ou doing here?" I told them, "I just got off the train." He asked where I had come from, and I said, "I ca me from Douala, and before that I came from the States." He asked, "You just came out here today, just now?" I said yes. Then he said, "Good God, man! This is not the hills of home. This is Africa!" I said, "I am aware of that." Anyway, these guys were nice. They were Catholic missionar ies, and they had a big mission station on a river, just a short way bel ow the train station. I went down there with them. By that time, it was getting to be dark. I remember we went out in the river with one of the monks. M: Were the monks natives of Africa? L: No, they were French; most of them were French. These two guys happened to be Americans and were camped there at the mi ssion. We went out in a dugout canoe and had a good time. The monks were kind of amazed that a young American guy--I was twenty years old at the time--would be wanderi ng around in Africa. I was so glad to see them. I was very grateful for what they did. In fact, the missionar ies all over treated me very well. M: Do you remember the names of the missionaries? L: No, I do not remember their names. I w ent south from there. I hitchhiked a ride on a truck and went south quite a ways to a river called the Lobi River [in Gabon]. There was a missionary there named Sylvian Meyer who put me up for a couple of days. He said, "Look. You will not have a chanc e to contact a lot of the people that you want to contact." I was looking for wild natives; I was looking for the darkest Africa. He continued, "You will be in danger, and you will not be able to contact people of interest unless I introduce you. If I introduce you as a churchman, then you will have access to the top men in the villages from here on south." This was tr ue, so we went to the Lobi River. The road stopped, and I took a canoe acro ss the river with my pack. On the far side, there was a little guy who was almost twent y years old. I did not realize it, because he was immature; he was still boyish. He asked, "May I take your pack, monsieur?" I even kind of laughed at him, because he di d not weigh more than 110 pounds. I weighed about 200 pounds, and I was tired from carrying that pack because it weighed

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12 about 100 pounds. So I said, "No, I will carry it." He said, "It is a long way, monsieur." M: Is this a native or a Frenchman? L: He was a native who spok e French. I also spoke French at the time. In fact, I did quite well with the Africans because their French was easier for me to understand than that of the French people. I went south with him, and I had carried that pack for about twenty minutes or so when I said, "We need to take a rest." We stopped for a minute, and then he picked up the bag, put it on his head, and took the lead. We were going down this muddy little trail, and the scener y was beautiful. It was right alongside the Atlantic Ocean. You could hear the surf pounding out there. This was Tarzan's jungle, which was one of the things I wanted to see. This was the place where Tarzan supposedly was born, according to Edgar Rice Burroughs's story. M: Was the film done in Africa? L: Not in those days. They were all done in Hollywood with Johnny Weissmuller. Since then some have been done in Africa, but most of those have been done in east Africa. The real Tarzan story dealt with t he coast of west Africa, in this area where I was. This was also the home of the lo wland gorilla. The gorillas were there then, and they are still there. In fact, there is a much more vigorous lowland gorilla population than the mountain gorilla you hear so much about. One of the things I wanted to see was the gorillas, and I wanted to get them on film. I had not gotten any really good pictures yet. We went to a little town called Batanga, which was at least four miles from the river. And that little guy carried that pack from where he picked it up a ll the way to Batanga without ever setting it down! It was at least 100 pounds, and he wei ghed a little over 100 pounds himself. I stopped him a couple times-he was soaking wet, he was sweating all over, and he was in agony--and I asked him if he wa s tired. He said, "Oui, monsieur." I said, "Take a rest." He said, "No, monsieur." And he just kept on going. That was one of my first experiences with African natives as they were then, and as they are today. M: Had this missionary contacted him or somebody from his village, which is how he knew about your coming? L: They used the drum; Sylvian Meyer had the guy play the drum. His house was several miles above the Lobi River. So that went across the river, and within a few minutes, they knew I was coming. I used to hear the drum every night when I was in Batanga. I stayed in Batanga for several weeks at the house with a guy named Maweyl Jean, a great big African who turned out to be the fat her of this little guy who carried my pack. I found out the boy's name was Maweyl Artu. And there was a cousin by the name of Ejawe who was about the same age. I was am azed at how juvenile these guys were. They were both twenty years old--maybe one of them was nineteen--and they were sexually immature. I found that this was the case with the Africans. They do not age. I

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13 saw men sixty and seventy y ears old, and I could see every muscle in their bodies because they were so healthy. They all had had malaria, and they all complained about their aches and pains, but those coastal nativ es were healthy, strong people. Physically, they were quite enviable. I stayed there for about three weeks. At first, I was afraid to eat things because I had had dysentary in Mexico, and I was afraid to get it in that environment because there was no medical assistance and I had no medicine. I did not have a first aid kit or anything. But I got more bold after awhile, and soon I was eating everything. Well, I ate what they allowed me to eat. One interesti ng item they had was palm oil. They used to boil palm oil in water to make it white or clea r--it is ordinarily a dark orange color. They would not permit me to have the orange, because they said that is the black man's. Visitors get the white palm oil, so that was one of their restrictions. I participated in their life and had a good time. I went out with them to get food. They had a very intricate kinship system set up where we would go down the coast in a dugout canoe, pick up 100-pound bag of peanuts, then go somewhere else to pick up something else. In turn, we would bring bananas and things like tha t. So no money exchanged hands. In one place I saw beautiful teak furniture--dressers and desks--being made by hand by the Africans in these little shacks along the coast. It was just fantastic, beautiful workmanship. M: Did they use those things, or did they sell them? L: They sold them up north in Douala. A lot of them were teak carvings of heads of warriors and things like that--things that sold for about 100 times more in New York. If I had known what to do and had been so inclined, I would have bought a lot of that. But I was not into that kind of thi ng. My main interest was searching out the wild natives. I was getting a bit discouraged because I was staying with some Seventh Day Adventists. They had a church service on Friday night, and they were very strict about what they ate. They were very religious, so it was not quite what I expected. One interesting thing I used to do was go out at night hunting with a flashlight. That would be illegal in the United St ates, and I never did very well. M: Did you go alone? L: No, I had a guide. I was scared because of this thing called the Gabon viper. The Gabon viper is the thickest snake in Africa for its size and lenghth --and the most deady. They are pit vipers that hunt and strike at night. Neither of us got bitten, but I thought about it plenty of times. T here were elephants, leopards, and py gmies in that little area of Africa, too. That is something I did not realize; nobodoy told me, because nobody knew. One day Maweyl Jean told me, "If you r eally want to get some pictures, you ought to go see the pygmies." I said, "Pygmies? Where are they?" He said, "Oh, they are out in

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14 the jungle a little ways." I found that hard to believe. The next day, Ejawe and I set out for the pygmy village in the jungle. He ca rried my camera, and I carried my 30-30 rifle. It was straight inland from the coast. We came to a little river, and I did not want to get my feet wet. I used to wear track shoes; tr ack shoes were not the "in" thing in those days, but I wore them because they were more comfortable, and they were just right for the jungle. I saw the vines hanging down fr om the treetops, and, being something of a gymnast and a weight lifter in those days, I climbed a vine, dropped onto a tree limb, walked across the river on that limb, and c limbed a vine down on the far side--with my rifle over my shoulder. Ejawe waded the rive r carrying the camera and a little bag on his head. He almost got submerged, and he was half-way across by the time I was going across the tree. When he saw me cross on that tree, that was the end of our expedition. He went back, put the came ra on the shore, and followed me up the vine, onto the tree, and across the river, yelling, "Tarzan!" There was always a bunch of kids around--you never get away from the kids, at least at that point--and the kids all started doing that. They had never done that before. For the rest of the day, all they did, including Ejawe, was go up that tree. We got a late start anywa y, so it was probably ju st as well. It got dark, and they were still climbing, going ac ross the river, and coming down the vine--I think they are doing it still. I was surprised. Several time s I climbed vines, and they were absolutely flabbergasted because they never did that. They would climb palm trees to get coconuts, but it never occurred to them that they could have fun in the trees playing Tarzan. And there they were, in just t he right place to be playing Tarzan. The next day we started out earlier. We went to a little v illage about two or three miles inland. Mebele was the name of the village, and Mabutu was the language they spoke. The people on the coast spoke Bat anga, but here they sp oke Mabutu. These were different people; they were a different race of African. They were smaller, but they were not pygmies; they were a long way from being pygmies. I remember there was a guy in Mebel e who apparently had been hit in the back of the leg with a machete. T hey had bound a cloth around the wound, but it had become gangrenous. His whole leg looked liked a club, and it was rotting. They asked me what I could do for him. To me it was quite obvious that his leg would hav e to be cut off. And the guy was carrying a damn canoe for us! He was one of the canoe bearers who took the canoe from Mebele across a little river to the other side. They said that this is where the pygmies gathered, that thei r home was on the other side of the river. There was a pygmy in Mebele who had leprosy. His nos e was gone, and he had big white patches all over his legs and back. He was a real pygmy--he was about 4'2". Ejawe, this pygmy, and I crossed the river in the dugout and took off for the deep jungle. I had my camera, and we were headed for pygmy country with a pygmy in the lead. It was really exciting. Th is is when I really felt that I had arrived. We went through these jungle clearings, and it was just like t he Tarzan books, a perfect description. We went deeper and deeper into the jungle, and it was very hard to tell how far you are

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15 going if you do not go in a straight line. But it was very easy walking through the big forest, even though there were little rivers that we had to wade. Suddenly I heard voices. We were at the pygmy village. It was a bunch of little shacks made of green leaves, and they were only about three and a half to four feet high. A lot of them were covered wit h chimpanzee skins. T hey apparently ate the chimpanzees and used the skins for shelter. T hey were very hospitable, but the little kids all cried. In fact, many of the younger people looked at me kind of strangely. These were the real pygmies--you know, naked savages They wore a loincloth, and that was it. They were all small, but they were very well-built, beautiful people. It turned out that I was the first white man to be in that village for twenty-six year s. The last white men to have been in there were German in 1926 --this was 1952--and they made a bad impression on the pygmies. They tried to co llect taxes from the pygmies. The pygmies disappeared into the jungle for twenty-six years, and I was the first white man to show up since. But I had the right people with me. The first thing they did was take me out in the jungle. They asked if I wanted to go hunting. I said yes and grabbed the camera. M: What language do they speak? Did they speak French? L: Let me see. I was speaking French to Ejawe, he was speaking Mabutu to this pygmy, and the pygmy was translating that in to the pygmy dialect, so we were going through three languages. I had to start with French because Ejawe did not speak any English at all, so I had a little trouble communica ting. But it was obvious what they were going to do. They had beautiful nets--where t hey got them I do not know. They were about 100 feet long and about one-inch mesh m ade of quarter-inch cord. It looked like some kind of a clear cord, almost like stri ng. Each man carried a section about 100 feet long. We went out into the forest, and we had not gone more than a quarter of a mile when they stopped. The men went out to cut little forked sticks, which they jammed into the ground, making a little square. Then they la id a pole across each fork, and over each pole they laid a series of transverse sticks. I thought this was really interesting, and I was taking pictures of it. They were very quick, very expert at doing this. Then they motioned for me to sit down in it--it was a chair! Something else I thought was interest ing was that there was a woman who came with us carrying a coconut shell with a burning ember inside. Whenever we stopped, we used it to build a fire. In that wet rain forest, these guys would find dry wood. They would put three logs together with the tips touching, and then they would put this ember at the tip. It would start a fire almost immediately. As the fire bur ned, they just pushed the logs together so they were just about touching. This kept the fire going. I had never seen this before. Of course, the logs woul d eventually burn up, a nd then there would be nothing, but they would use the whole log. They must have known what logs to use, because they burned even though we were in the wet season.

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16 Anyway, I spent all day hunting with t hese pygmies, and it wa s fascinating. It was just what you would see in the movies. They would set out these traps, and it was really amazing how fast they were. M: Did they throw the nets over an animal to capture it? L: No. What they did was stretch the nets end-to-end for about a quarter mile by tying them together. Then they would find a littl e branch and break it o ff, and hang the net on the branch. They had the nets stretched out as far as I could see in either direction in maybe five minutes or less. Then they all disappeared and left Ejawe and me standing at the net--they did not let Ej awe go out in the jungle, either. Although he was a lot smaller than I was and a lot more agile, we were both like elephants compared to those little pygmies. And they went off into the distance and left us standing there. Everything was quiet. Pretty soon I hear d a "hoot, hoot, hoot" way off in the distance. It was pygmies coming back, and they were scaring the game in front of them. We never caught anything, and they apparently figur ed Ejawe and I were the cause. After a couple of hours they said we are going to gi ve it up; we are not going to get anything today. M: What were the nets for? L: Well, the idea wa s that they would go out and encircle the game. They were mainly after dik-dik, a small forest antelope. They would encircle it and driv e it front of them, and the animal would run into t he net. Once it ran into the net, they could catch it and put a spear in it. They all used spears, and t hey could get injured in this process. In fact, the little guide who took us in, the one with leprosy, had a big hole in the back of his leg where he said an antelope had bitten a piec e out. And boy, I will tell you, it was an ugly thing! There were several people from Mebel e, the village we had left, who had leprosy and were living with the pygmies. I checked with Fred Hulse, the physical anthropologist, when I got back to Arizona, and he said that was typical. The forest people are considered to be healers by the neighboring no rmal-sized African tribes, so when they got sick, as you do with leprosy, they went to live with the little people. So the poor little people were stuck with these lepers, and they had leprosy, too. M: Did any of them get well? L: I doubt it. M: That would have blown that theory. L: Yes, it was not a very good theory. There was an interesting relationship between the pygmies and the surrounding neighbors. They had a kind of a brother relationship;

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17 the Mebele men had little brothers in the forest. It was very congenial but dictatorial on the part of the people in Mebele. They got meat from the pygmies, and they gave the pygmies machetes and probably the string that they made their nets out of. I am sure those nets are also made from native fiber, because there was too much fiber in all those things that had been brought in, and they did not have money enough to buy it. I spent the day with them. When it got dark, we went back to Mebele, and I was very nervous about that. There is something nerve-racking about being in the jungle when the rain comes down and when it gets dark. We stayed at the village that night and went back to Batanga the next day. In fact, I think it was two days I was t here. But we never caught anything when we were hunting with the pygmies, which was too bad. But I did shoot pictures of the entire oper ation. What I did not know was that the film had jammed in the camera after the first two feet, and even though it sounded like it was running through, it was not on the sprocket, so I got only one frame out of all that. I have the story, but I cannot prove it; I have no pictures. That is someth ing that works me up still. It is the most frustrating thing in my life. I was the first one to see them in twenty-six years, and t hat was verified later when I got back to Arizona. It was probably a bad thing, because some of these people very soon followed me, and I hear from people now who are connected with the Universi ty of Florida Came roon project that pygmies are seen now in the town of Douala and some of the other towns, and that they have been acculturated. They have lost their old livelihood, and they are at the bottom of the economic ladder, which is pretty low. I stayed in Batanga for a while longer. It was a beautiful place, with the Atlantic Ocean, beautiful beaches, and thes e crystal-clear rivers running down into the ocean. The kids always used to bring me different ki nds of fruit. I remember things like ching fop, breadfruit, ice cream beans, and all these ex otic foods. I was very nervous about it. M: Did they call them ice cream beans? L: No, they did not call them ice cream beans. We called them that. I have forgotten what their true name is. They are a legume with a long pod and a very sweet, gooey, cotton candy interior. I eventually left and went up the Congo Riv er. I had a very interesting time in the Congo. I was on a paddle wheel steamer, and ev ery night when we would pull up to the dock, I used to dive off the roof, which was about thirty-five high, and dive into the Congo River. There was a guy named Bonaface who was the cabin boy of this steamer. He came from what I guess was a cannibal tribe. His teeth were filed to points, and he was a big, husky guy, and tough as nails. That was always what impressed me: these people were so tough. They were hard ph ysically, and they worked so hard. They underwent an awful lot of physical discomfort that we just would not even consider putting up with. Anyway, Bonaface got more than he bargained for. He saw me diving off this roof of the cabin. I knew it was safe because we had a really deep draw on the

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18 boat. The boat sank very low in the water, so the deck was only about a foot and a half above the water. When I dived off the top, Bonaface wanted to do the same thing. And I said, "I do not know if I can tell you how to do it." He said for me not to worry--"I can do it." M: Did he speak French? L: He spoke French. We are now in the Belgian Congo [present-day Zaire]. I could tell it was an unstable place. They talked about "enlightened colonization" in those days, and the Belgians were doing it. But there was terrible brutality. I saw some of the most brutal treatment of blacks I have ever seen. I knew there was goi ng to be trouble. The Belgian Congo was slated to gain thei r independence in 1960, and indeed there was a blood bath. But at that time, whites were treated well because they were so harsh with the natives. Anyway, Bonaface dived off the roof, and he did a back flop. He landed on his back, and it sounded like a cannon going off when he hit the water. He came out, and he was in agony. It would have killed t he average man, I am sure. He said, "Yes, you are right, monsieur. It is not easy," or something to that effect. I was just amazed that he survived. I took some good pictures of the W agenia Tribe at Stanleyville on the Congo River. They had large nets that they strung across the river, great big funnel-shaped nets, and they would catch large catfish in these nets. That is one of the wonders of African culture. How they ever got these huge stings out in the rapids, I do not know. It was just impossible to measure. The frames were as big as telephone poles, and they were sunk into this raging river. They must have been ten, fifteen, or twenty feet down, and they just stayed there for years and years. T hese big hoop nets had long trailing cones that made them look like an insect net. They would catch some big fish. They would just get into the net and could not swim out. I saw some catfish that must have been about four feet long and weighed about fifty pounds. I was beginning to get some good pictures. At that time, I did not realize that my pygmy pictures did not come out, so I was feeling very optimistic. Many, many things happened, but I cannot go into all the details. M: I am fascinated. L: Well, I went across the highlands. The ri ver becomes the Lualaba River. This is part of the trail that Stanley took when he went to find Livingst on--that is why they call the capital of the Congo Stanleyville [present-day Kinshasa]. I went up to Albert National Park, which is in the highlands on the easte rn side of the Congo, below the "mountains of the moon," the Ruwenzori r ange. That is where the mountain gorillas live. I should tell you I did see a gorilla when I was down in t he jungle, but it was in a cage. It was one of those little baby gorillas one of the natives had caught. It was a fantastic prize. I do not know what they got for them, but it was in the hundreds of dollars, even in those days.

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19 Anyway, I was up on the highlands, and it wa s very cold at night. I hitched a ride. I found out that in Africa you do not hitchhike--y ou just stand in the mi ddle of the road to stop the truck and get in. And if there is anyone sitting in the front seat, you kick them out, and they go ride in the rear. In fact, thes e customs are rather colonial and brutal. If you do not kick them out, they will get out anyway, so I really did not kick anyone out. As soon as I would get in t he truck cab, the people that we re in there would get out and ride in the back of the truck. Whites were tr eated royally. I felt guilty about it. I would go 100 miles or more. We passed a herd of elephants, and I took some good shots of them I took a picture of a bull elephant waving his ears forward and star ing right at me. So me guy said later, "Man, you must have had a good telephoto lens." I told him I had not used a telephoto lens for that shot. He said, "You came aw fully close: that th ing was about ready to charge!" I did not realize the elephant was that mad, because you see them do that in zoos. In the wild, a man cannot run away fr om an elephant. It is all you can do to get away from them in a jeep. We stopped at one bridge of the Ruts huru River, and I saw some natives throwing rocks in the river. I thought maybe I had better se t up my camera. Just as I got it set up, a huge hippo came charging out, and I got a shot of it. I was above it on the bridge, but it was a perfect shot. The hippo was down under water, and just after I got the camera set up, it came out. That was what I wanted--wildlife shots and native shots. I remember I was wearing Levi's jeans. This British guy--I was told later it was Lord Louis Mountbatten [British naval leader and statesman, viceroy of India, 1900-1982]--asked, "Hey, Yank! Do you buy those things off the peg?" I asked what he meant. He said, "I mean those pants." I said yes, and he said, "Boy, I would sure like to get some." I said, "You can buy them in Tu cson, Arizona." He said "By all means." I had a long, very exciting talk with this guy. He had been everywhere, but I did not know who he was. After he left and went to his littl e round African cabin, the director of the hotel--I was treated very well by the clientele and by the director of hotel--came over and asked, "Do you realize you were talking to t he first minister of the world?" I never did find out for sure who he was, but I guess it was Mountbatten because other people told me he was in the area. I was looking for the gorilla. This wa s a great disappointment. I went to Lake Kivu and got a little paddle boat. We went ac ross Lake Kivu and ended up in Rwanda-Urundi [present-day Rwanda], so I was out of the C ongo. This is the ar ea where Idi Amin held sway for awile. This was before his time. [Amin was the ruthless military dictator of Ethiopia from 1971 until he was ousted in 1979.] I was in Rwanda-Urundi, where really picturesque natives lived. They had not been acculturated or colonialized. I was using a Brownie camera, and some of the best pictures I got are on that Brownie film. I was doing a rather dangerous thing, al though I did not realize it at the time. I

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20 wanted to get pictures especia lly of women, because they were topless. That makes appealing pictures--even National Geographic worked hard to get those. I was doing these shoots, and I was giving a franc or two to the models I was shooting. I was going around from one village to another. They had t hese little enclosures, and I noticed that in most of these enclosu res there were only women, which made for very good photography. At one point, this fierce-looking guy came in and said something in some language. I came to understand that these were his wives--not just one, but more than one--and that he was supposed to get the money, not them. So I gave him the coins, but he spat on them and threw them away. Well, I knew that wa s a sign of great hostility, because they did not have much money--a franc to them was a lot of money--so I made myself scarce and got out of ther e. But I did get the pictures. After that, I was trying to get into the mountains, which was very hard to do in that country because nothing was organized. As I said, this was not co lonial country. I decided that I could not get there, and I could not speak wit h the people, so I could not find out anything. You just do not walk into those mountains; they are very ominous. I gave up on the gorillas and made arrangements to catch an airplane to Elisabethville [Lubumbashi] in the southern Congo. Then I met a guy in a truck, a Frenchman, who told me that he could show me gorillas wit hin two days' time. I had already bought a ticket on the airplane, and there would not be another one for two weeks. I had made a great holler and fuss about getting this airplane, so I could not back out. To make a long story short, I missed my chance with the gorillas. It was frustrating, but one of those things. I ended up going to Elisabethville, and I took the train on to South Africa. On the way, I stopped at a little town called Brok en Hill [now Kabwe] in northern Rhodesia. When I got off the train, I went to the fi rst bar I could find. They had good beer in Rhodesia, very good beer. It was not cold, but it was very strong. I saw these guys playing a gambling game on the table. It had a top with six sides; it was a six-sided cylinder. They would spin the top, and written on the side facing up would be instructions; there were six different statements on it. Y ou would put your money down, and it would say to pay two quid (or whatever) into the pot. These guys asked, "Hey, Yank! Want to play?" I said sure. The fi rst time I spun it, I had to put two quid in the pot. The pot was pretty big--I guess one [Bri tish] pound, which at that time was worth around four dollars. The next time I spun the cylinder, it said take the pot. Boy, that money lasted me a long time. I had quite a bit of money. M: They did not try to take it away from you? L: No, they were good sports. In fact, t hey took me in. I do not know quite how the introduction was made, but I met a guy nam ed John Valentine, and he said, "You can stay with me as long as you want." M: What was he? L: He was miner. These guys were all miners.

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21 M: What nationality were they? Were they British? L: They were actually Rhodesians. This was in northern Rhodesia. I said, "Look, I really want to safari." He said, "No trouble. I have just the guy for you: Campbell. He is a miner. If you pay him fifteen dollars a day, he will take you out in the bush for as long as you want to go. He has his own truck, his own blacks, and his own guns. And you have a gun." So off we went. I paid this guy fifteen dollars a day, and a good part of that came out of the pot I had won in the bar. We got way out from Broken Hill, and it was beautiful. We went around at night with a light, and there was all kinds of game. The first night we slept beside the road, and when I woke up in the morning, there were lion tracks in the road. Campbe ll said, "That is a big lion." The tracks did not look that big; these big cats make a small track, actually. Well, I do not know what happened to me. I have always been a pretty good shot with a gun, but I missed three shots in the course of the following day. Two were leopards, which were then legal game. They were not even protect ed, unfortunately. We shot leopards at night, in fact. I re member Campbell's sayi ng, "Take my shotgun and aim for the eyes. And do not miss, because if you wound the animal, it is going to be on us." This was after dark. So there we re the eyes out there. I took his shotgun, which was a beautiful twelve gauge, aimed for the eyes, pulled the trigger, and the eyes disappeared. Campbell said, "You missed! Get ready." Nothing happened. Then he said, "The other one is over t here." And it was still there; there was another leopard that was not more than fifty or sixty feet away. I aimed and pulled the trigger, and the eyes disappeared. Nothing happened--it was gone. I missed both times, and I missed a couple more shots. M: Do you suppose it was you? Maybe it was the gun. L: I do not know. I missed with my own rifle, too. It was the most frustrating thing to finally be here on the African veldt and miss. I also missed an antelope, as well as a big bush pig. I missed that alt ogether; I did not even get a shot at that. But I cannot complain. I got to safari, and I got it for th irty dollars. I was out for two days with this guy at fifteen dollars a day. We were in the poachers' camp outsi de of Broken Hill in nort hern Rhodesia. One of the scary things about it was the immensity of the operation. These guys were riding bicycles. They were going out and killi ng elephants and taking the tusks from the elephants to sell them. Appar ently, they were butchering the elephants and selling the meat to the local natives. And the size of the operation! They had made a stockade there out of huge logs, about twent y feet long. They buried them in the ground, making a complete fence or wall. It was just amaz ing the amount of work that these Africans were doing just to eke out a living. These guys were on the run. They were outlaws who would be shot on sight. M: And they were Africans themselves?

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22 L: These were the black Africans. They were poaching elephants, and that was against the law, even then, in 1952. Campbell said he would shoot t hem if he ever saw them. And Campbell was no pushover, either. He had been captured in the Second World War by the Italians and had spent time in a pr ison camp. Eventually he broke out of the prison camp and made it from occupied Italy to north Africa. Then he went back to Italy for some battle at the end of the Italian part of the World War II. He was an interesting guy. M: What nationality was he? L: Actually, he was a Scotsman who came to live in Rhodesia. He was single, and he was a miner. He spent all day in the mines, making fifteen dollars a day mining copper. He was a tough guy and very knowledgeable, and a good hunter. Every animal we saw, night or day, he knew what it was. I re member one thing that struck me about Campbell himself was that his blacks we re badly mistreated. He or dered them around. At night when we slept out, we had sleeping bags, but his blacks had to sleep under his overcoat. The temperature was in the forties, since we were in pretty high country. By this time it was actually winter; it was in July south of the equator. I was constantly reminded how durabl e and tough these natives were. When we got out about fifteen miles from w here we left our jeep, Cam pbell asked, "Where is the Jeep? Where do you think it is ?" I pointed in what I thought was the right direction. Then he said, "I would say it is over here"--about ten degree s north of where I pointed--"but we do not know, do we." I said, "No, that is only a gue ss." So we let the black take us back. The guy turned almost fifty or sixty degrees off from where we had pointed and struck out, and we hit that Jeep dead center in about two or three hours of walking. It was a long walk, and that native knew exactly w hat the azimuth was. Both Campbell and I were off; we would have missed it and be still walking, I guess. You could not compete with these black people in certain aspects of their daily life. Where you could compete, for example, wa s in things like climbing trees and running down the beach. These kids r eally did not run so seriously as guys who have played football, and I could always out run the African natives. In fact, I could even run backwards at the same speed they could run. That just struck me funny because they are so tough and so durable, but yet there were certain aspects of American athletics that they were not trained in. Gymnastics is another. That was the best, the Africa trip. I c ontinued to South Africa. Even in those days, I was very upset by the apartheid and the attit ude that goes with the apartheid. It is just the inhuman treatment. I remember, for example, that I wanted to take some pictures of Zulus. I thought they w ould be picturesque. My gui de was an American woman, Phoebe Stoker. She was a classmate of my mother's at Vassar. Herman Stoker was one of the ministers of agricultu re, and they were very nice to me. But I remember--this came as kind of a shock to me--that Phoebe went to welfare and asked, "Do you have

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23 any Zulus? My friend wants to take a picture of them." I said, "N o, you missed the point. I want them out there pranci ng around and doing their ritual." I took some beautiful pictures of mine dancers who came in from way out in the blue, as they call it down there. They were raw natives, and they went down in the pits. On Sunday they have dances that typified their par ticular tribe. They had all of the native regalia, lion skins, and the works, and they had co mpetitions. And they are good. I got some really good shots of those mine dances. I left Africa in t he fall of 1952, probably September. M: How long were you gone? L: Oh, about three months, I guess. M: Is that all? L: Yes. See, I was on leav e from the draft board. Things were tough. This was during the Korean War. Nobody survived very l ong if they did not have some kind of arrangement with the draft board. One of my plans for Af rica was to stay there and simply get lost. But I still had college, so I came back and graduated in 1953. Then I was drafted into the army. I joined the par atroopers and went to Fort Campbell for two years. I was discharged as a sergeant, E-5, after two years. There was not a lot to tell. I trained in some tough jungles in Panam a, which I used later on when I went to the Amazon. The Panama trip, I would say, wa s most productive. We all became jungle experts. In a way, it is interesting, bec ause that was in 1954, and none of us wanted to go to Korea because it was cold. But, we we re all hoping that the war in Vietnam would continue. It was already known to us in the m ilitary that Vietnam was the next place we were going to go to. I was just hoping that they w ould get this Vietnam conflict going so we would not have to go to Korea. Anyway, I learned a lot of jungle lore in the Panama jungle, and I thought that somehow I would be walk ing these trails agai n after I got out of the army. I read a book called The Rivers Ran East [by Leonard Clark], but I will tell you more about that later. When I did get out of the army, I found myself in one of the old unemployment situations. I went to Hawaii and worked in a gym. In fact, I managed the gym for Rex Ravelle, who was a movie actor and muscle man. He was one of my heroes. He played in The Song of Scheherazade which I had seen when I was si xteen years old. That inspired me to go into weightlifting. In thos e days, I was, in fac t, the state champion of Montana and second place in the st ate of Arizona. So it wa s good professionally for me to take over the gym. I had a zoology degree, which made them happy because I was, in a sense, qualified to talk physiology with the clientele. I ran the gym in Wahiawa, which is in the center of the island of Oahu near Schofield Barracks. I used to give

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24 lectures in high schools, too. Rex thought that was a great way to drum up business, and it was. I was in good shape in those da ys. I remember having a contest with Rex Ravelle, and I thought, "Boy, I have arrived. Here I am having a lifting contest with my boyhood hero." This guy was fifty years old, but he could still outdo me. He was good. I came back stateside and had various problems with a girlfri end that I knew when I was in the army. It was kind of a stormy affa ir. I came back because of her, but I should have stayed in Hawaii, I think. Then I read this book, The Rivers Ran East as I mentioned, which is about a guy who went to the Amazon Basin. He had sev en $100 bills pinned to the inside of his shirt pocket, and that was the extent of his equipment. The story was so good. I figured that if I got only one-half of what he saw and did on film I could make lots of money. At that time, television was buying films from amat eur photographers. In fact, most of the good stuff on adventure was bought from amateurs because t he networks did not have enough money in those days to equip expeditions like they do now. There really were no professional television expeditions in those days. The amateurs had a program called "I Search For Adventure," with Jack Douglas. I went to New York and saw Jack Douglas's film s. In fact--this is kind of funny--Lowell Thomas, Jr. heard of my case through a friend of my father's. Lowell Thomas, Jr. got Jack Douglas's films from Hollywood and showed them to me so I would know what kind of material they were buying. I went out and bought two little 16mm movie cameras. I had made this big pack with a fiber glass liner, and I put sixty-five rolls of film inside it, each one being a fifty-foot roll or magazine. That thing weighed about 120 pounds by the time I had it all loaded up. I went to Tucson, Arizona and prepared for the expedition. I shopped around in downtown Tucs on in army-navy stores and sporting good stores stocking up on what I thought I needed for an Amazon expedition. I guess I fairly well figured it out, because almost everything I bought in American sporting good stores was eventually used in the Amazon. I had a fair idea because I had been through the army's jungle training courses in Panama. I hitchhiked going south from Tucson, Arizona out to souther n Mexico. I met two guys, Jerry Conners and Ray Lucas, and we ta lked about teaming up together. I asked Jerry Conners, who was the leader of the other two, how the idea got into his head. He wanted to go to the Amazon for the same reas on I did: he wanted to make a movie. He said he had read a book called The Rivers Ran East I said, "By Leonard Clark, right?" and he said yes. Then I said, "Okay. We know what we are doing," and from then on we were partners. We both made our own films; in fact, we were competitors with each other trying to outshoot the other. The ot her guy, Ray Lucas, was not a very vigorous companion. He turned back when we got to Panama, so Jerry and I went on alone. We took a freighter from Panama to Buenaventura on the west coast of Colombia. Colombia was in a state of siege at that ti me. The banditos were trying to drive the peasants out of the hills so they could usurp their land. In fact, the banditos were

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25 fighting the army and winning. In one case, the army went up in the hills to get the banditos. The army went in with a tank and a company of soldiers, and they came out of the hills running in front of their tank. The banditos had captured it and were shooting at them! They were very dangerous. Our plan was to go up in the Andes, buy a dugout canoe, and paddle down the Andes slope into the Amazon Basin east toward the Atlantic Ocean. We were just a few miles from the west coat. The plan was to go across the Amazon Basin. It was just getting dark, and we were standing on the far side of a bridge just outside of Buenaventura trying to get a ride up into the A ndes. There were two Indians standing on the other side of the bridge; we were closer to town, and these other two guys were on the other side of the bri dge. A truck came along and gave us a ride because we happened to be on the upstream side; [the other tw o were left]. We got in this truck and went on up to a truck stop at a restaurant or bar on the slope of the Andes up there. By now it was dark. Another truck pulled in behind us--with the bodies of these two guys who had been on the other side of the bridge. One of them was beheaded, and the other one was split lengthwise wit h a machete. This was the terrorism that the banditos were inflicting on the peasants. In fact, in the Amazon Basin, I met a guy from the same area who came home one night and found thirteen members of his family beheaded, so he just took off. M: Who did that? The banditos? L: Banditos. That was all we ever heard was bandito, never any names. That was going on all that time. Well, we went to Medelln and Pasto, Colombia, which are way up high in the Andes. When I got up to Pasto, I thought I did not have enough film left that was good to do this filming. W hen I was in Panama, I had my family ship some film to Lima, Peru, because I thought I was going to Lima. I did not realize that I could get to the Andes in Colombia and go down from wher e we were. So here I am in Pasto, essentially out of film. I shot a lot more than I thought I would, and I had to go to Lima, which was 1,300 miles south, to get my film. I told Jerry, "Hang on. Stay in this hotel in Pasto." It was terrible city--an overca st, cloudy, cold, miserable place. I got on a banana truck and hitchhiked down to Lima. That was a te rrific trip. I went down the Atacama Desert [on t he coast of Peru]. This was in February. The sun was shining, and I was on top of the banana tru ck eating bananas. The truck drivers were really friendly, and we stopped at bars and drank beer all day long. They were wild; we had a terrific time. We went all the way to Lima, Peru, about 1,300 miles. I really was sorry to see those guys go. Then I picked up the film and hitchhiked back. When I got back to Pasto, nobody had seen Jerry, nobody remembered him, and nobody knew where he was. I had been gone for tw o weeks. I knew the only place he would go was to the river, to the head waters of the Putumayo River, which is the river we decided to paddle down. I took a bus with the film in my pack, machetes, and all the gear for the jungle. That was a long ride--I will not go into it. I drank a little too much

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26 laqua-diente and got myself in trouble on the wa y down. That was kind of stupid on my part. Laqua-diente is what they called it--"mout hwash." They call it pisco in Peru. Laqua-diente had anise in it, and when you drank it, you got hit with narcoticizing effect from the anise just as same as alcohol. If you did not know that, it was quite a dangerous drink. It really knocked you for a loop and made you act crazy. Anyway, when we arrived in Puerto Ass, I was sound asleep on the bus. It was a very hot day. I remember that Jerry was shaking me and saying, "Hey, wake up man! We have a river to navigate." He had been sitti ng there at Puerto As s for at least ten days waiting for me to show up. By t hat afternoon we had bought a big, long dugout, about twenty feet long. I thin k I paid eighteen dollars for it. Then we scared up all the food we could find in the village in Puerto Ass, which was just a small village. We could not find much; I think we got one box of sugar lump sugar, five pounds of rice, a couple bananas, and one can of sardines. Maybe I had brought the sardines with me. Anyway, that was our supplies. We w anted to get started after we got the canoe and everything. We started out late afternoon, and the sky opened up. We shipped 500 gallons of water the first hour on the river. We decided at that point to take off our clothes and keep them under the tarps. We would just put them on when we got to civilization, which did not happen for about five days. M: Did the canoe have a top on it? L: No, we just had a pile of gear in the c enter. We had it on kind of a small platform, a pallet, and we just put our ponchos over it. So everything we wa nted to keep dry, including film, was in this pile in the mi ddle of the dugout. The dugout was heavy; it weighed between 1,000 and 2,000 pounds. It was paper thin--the walls were only about an inch thick--but it was stra ight as an arrow. It was old; it must have been fifty years old. I would say it was twenty feet long and about three feet wide, so it was long and narrow. But it was a beautiful dugout. It wa s made out of hard w ood, and the craftsmen had done a beautiful carving job on it. Anyway, we headed south. The first thi ng we did was turn around to see if it was really going to be a one-way trip, to see if we could paddle upstream against the current. There was just no way we could go against t he current, even in the slow areas. One of the first exciting things happened late in the afternoon when we were looking for a place to camp. We tied the canoe to a snag out on the edge of the river. I was just standing there while Jerry went ashore looking fo r a place to hang our jungle hammocks--we did have jungle hammocks--when a huge white object came up out of the water alongside the canoe. It was about five or six feet long and about a foot and a half wide, and it looked like it weighed about 1,000 pounds. It was a white porpoise of the Amazon. There are actually four species of por poise, and they go all the way up to the headwaters of the river. But that was kind of eerie, because at first I did not know what it was. This huge, white object suddenly loomed out of the water, and it was right there. M: He did not turn you over?

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27 L: Oh, no. That canoe was so stable we could not capsize; there was no way. It was amazing. I thought it would be treacherous, but it was safe as can be. Well, that was our start on the Amazon. We were going down the Putumayo River, and we spent five days on that first stretch. The first town we came to was a town called Puerto Leguzamo, which was the home of a lot of these mestizos that had been driven out by the banditos. On the way, we had run out of food. We ran out of food the first day. I think we had a little sugar left and some rice. I had all of these beautiful lures that I had bought for fishing, and we had a fishing line over the side all the time, but for the first three or four days we did not catch a thing. We did have some bananas. I think we were able to pick up some bananas at one of the villages along the river. I put a banana on the hook, and that was the se cret-from then on we caught catfish. They love bananas, which was information that became very useful. We proceeded on down the Putumayo Riv er until we came to Puerto Legusamo, about five or six days after our start. From there we made plans to travel down to the Yaguas River, which was close to 1,000 miles downstream by river, and to go upstream on the Yaguas River, which was the home of t he Yaguas Indians. So we went upstream on the Yaguas. At that time, it just so happened that the Yaguas's one tribe, or one clan, had lost their chief. As we camped beside the river, the entire clan of Indians came down the river and camped along side of us. So we had an ideal situation where we could watch the Indians and do our filming, and we learned a lot. M: Did they know you were there? L: They knew we were there. M: Did they know you were taking pictures? L: In fact, we camped beside a small enc ampment of Yaguas Indians. This group, as their custom dictates, had burned their village bec ause of a death in the village, and they came downstream looking for a good site for thei r next village. I got some shots of them using blow guns to hunt wild pig. It was a very good interlude. After we spent about ten days there, Jerry and I went on up the stream, paddling the canoe, in search of the Bora Indians who were supposedly even more unacculturated and in their natural state. Supposedly they we re entirely naked. We were there in 1958, and the last reports of the Bora, from the early 1950s or late 1940s, se emed to be of wild so-called "Indios Bravos." Paul Fejos was the one who told me about them. Paul Fejos worked with the Wenergran Foundation and wa s a famous social anthropologist. Unfortunately, we did not find the Bora Indians. As we traveled upstream on the Yaguas, we decided finally that we had come as far as we could. We had nowhere to go but downstream again to get back on the

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28 Putumayo and head on down the Amazon. One thi ng that I should point out is that we were in unchartered, unknown territory. In fact, even the Putumayo turned out to have other tributaries like the Yaguas. It was not ve ry far from a place called Tarapaca, where ten years after we came back from the Amazon the Colombians discovered an Indian tribe of an unknown language group. In fact, that was their first and only contact with that Indian tribe. As far as I know, they have not been seen again; that was in 1968. So they were all around. There was a lot to be discovered, and we did our share. I think we were quite lucky. The most important thing we discove red in the course of this trip was not geographical or anthropological, but a small fish called the canero. It belongs to genus Candiru and is known as an internal predator. It had been a mythological fish in the sense that it was supposed to swim into the body orifices--anus, vagina, mouth--and eat from the inside out. It was supposedly able to do that; that was the myth. But there had been no actual proof of this ever established. Well, I noticed when we caught some of our large catfish, which in some cases were six feet long, that there were these small catfish in the gut of the fish we had caught. The Indians told us they are caneros. When we were first introduced to them, we did not realize what they were until we caught a large catfish actually on the Amazon. When we arrived on the Amazon, we caught a large catfish that had scales--not really scales, but kind of an armor plate--and sp ikes along the lateral line. It was a fierce-looking thing called the dorado. We had it hooked by its mouth, and we decided to keep it in the water so it would remain alive and not rot before we were ready to eat it. We had it by the side of the canoe. Suddenly I noticed a rippling around its mouth, and it appeared that small fish were going into its mouth. At a closer look, we found they were small fish swimming, one after the other, into the mouth that was held open by this hook in the current. When we finally pulled it out of the water, it was entirely filled with these tiny fish, probably about the size of your finger or a little smaller. When we let the fish hang for a minute or two from the hook--i t was dead by this time--the little fish started popping out through holes in the abdomen: they had eaten it from the inside out! We let this process continue and kept the cameras on it, filming the entire process of these small caneros--small, eyeless catfish --eating from the inside out until they completely consumed the carcass of the fish. This film turned out to be the first record of internal predation by fish. The place where we filmed it wa s Ramn Castillo on the Peruvian Amazon, where it has been claim ed that about fifteen people within recent memory had been killed by the canero, most of them being women doing their laundry. The difference between the canero and some of the other dangerous fish like piranha is that it takes a school of the other types to kill you. They bite and tear at you, and they are fierce, but it takes a lot of them to kill you. The thing about the canero is it only takes one. Once one of them gets inside you, it can kill you. I later started a paper with Dr. Carl Hubbs, who is the ichthyologist most acquainted

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29 with Amazon fish and is the dean of American Ichthyology. Unfortunately, he passed away before we finished the paper, and I never have gotten around to finishing it. But we made stills from the motion pictures, and they would have been the first ecological report that verified the canero as fact. We did name a new genus, and Jerry and I worked on it for awhile. But I got into other things, and so did he. That was toward the end of my Amazon trip. After about seven months after leaving the U.S., I was in Leticia [Colombia] on the Amazon [River]. I got a ride in a twin-engine aircraft based in Panama. The pilot gave me a free ride back to Panama, and I left Jerry in the Amazon. Jerry planned to go to Lima, Peru, as I had done earlier, so I left hi m there and went to back to Panama to go home to Massachusetts. Shortly after that, I enrolled at the Univ ersity of Arizona and earned my master's degree in zoology with a minor in botany and ecology. M: When did you go back? 1958? L: I went back to the University of Arizona in 1958. M: When did you finish? L: I got my degree in the spring of 1961. I was out for about one semester. I also worked at the Museum of Norther n Arizona. I did my thesis on the Sunset Crater area of northern Arizona, and also the W apatki Ruins. It was an inte resting archaeological site, one of the Pueblo Indian sites. My expertise at the time was osteology, the identification of mammals and various other groups by means of bones. I did the identification of bones from an era of about 1,000 years ago that had been excavated in the 1930s and 1940s. It gave us an ecological picture of the country around Flagstaff as it had been 1060 A.D. That was the time the Pueblo Indi ans moved out of that area, and they never returned. That is still a myst ery that we are still working on. That was where I got my master's, in early 1961. I began to think about getting back into movies again. The Am azon picture had been a real success. It had gone on national television in 1960, as I had hoped, on the Jack Douglas program "I Search for Adventure." My assumption was that if I could get film, even a part of what Leonard Clark reported s eeing, I would have a good film and could make money, which turned out to be true. T he film netted several thousand dollars, and I actually spent $780 in the course of the trip. After graduating, I decided I wanted to go to Australia. Australia at the time was inviting immigrants from the United States and northern Europe, and I wanted very much to see the outback and some of the Australian aborigines who remained in their natural state. I thought that a film on Australia would be timely. Not only that, I had become interested in the evolution of mammals, and animals in general, from my work on the Sunset Crater area. There were unique races of rodents and ot her mammals that had evolved in the area since the eruption of the volcano about 1,000 years earlier. There

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30 were animals that developed a black race and they had obviously not been there for more than 1,000 years. This microevolution and the idea that there is such a thing as evolutionary convergence would be, I though t, a good topic for a film. The most pronounced case of evolutionary convergence in mammals is probably the marsupials in Australia, which have evolved to forms almost identical to placental mammals in the rest of the world. I got a Bolex, a good camera, much be tter than the one I used in the Amazon. In fact, I took two to the Amaz on, but one happened to get lost in the process of filming. I took enough film, a total of 10,000 feet, for the Australian venture. My plan was to make two movies in Australia. One was to be a travelogue of what I saw. I was going to do this with Harry Atwood, the film producer at the University of Arizona. The other movie was going to be on evolutionary convergence between these mammals. Now, let me cite a case. There is an animal called Antechinus which is a marsupial mouse that looks just like a house mouse, but they are not related. In fact, a house mouse is much more closely related to a w hale than it is to the marsupial mouse, even though the two look identical from a distanc e. This is what you call evolutionary convergence, when two animals with the sa me habitat tend to converge in form and appearance, even down to the hair and eye co lor and body form, and yet are entirely unrelated. There are other examples. There was a marsupial wolf that looked exactly like a dog of some kind, but it is more like a kangaroo than a dog. These animals that have evolved to similar body form and function gi ve us a clue as to what is going on in the evolution of life. How can it happen, with so many possi bilities, that you get two identical life forms on opposite sides of the worl d, merely because they seem to occupy the same niche? It is still not understood. There is still a bigger question, but it does not apply to just to mammals. It applies to sharks and the reptiles t hat look like sharks, and it applies to trees and bushes. Trees are a life form, and many trees look alike but are quite unrelated. Another good example is a cactus and the euphorbia. The euphorbia is from Africa and looks like a cactus, but it is not. Evolutionary conv ergence is probably most explic itly demonstrated, however, by the marsupial and placental mammal, lar gely because they are the most complex of all life forms. I went to Australia by ship. It t ook three weeks, and I bunk ed with five other men below the water line of the old ship. We were all immigrants going to Australia. A lot of them, in fact, had their expenses paid by the Australian government. Their tickets were partly paid for, and, in exchange, they were expected to stay and work in Australia and to become citizens. I took an immigrant's vi sa, partly because I had an eye on staying in Australia, but also because I could work. With the visa, I could do my filming in Australia without further immigration papers. When I got to Sydney, I bought a secondhand land rover that was in fairly good condition, and I drove it clock wise around Australia, taking film as I went. I would say the first two to three hundred miles were tar r oad. I went from Sydney to Melbourne to

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31 Adelaide, and shortly beyond Adelaide t he paved road stopped. There were about 1,500 miles of dirt road to get to the west c oast. This was all part of the great Australian Highway that goes all the way around the conti nent. There is a short stretch, maybe 400 miles on either side of Perth in southwestern Australia, that is paved. The rest of the way around the continent, from the southwest corner all the way back to the northeast, well over 2,000 miles, is unpaved road. There are only a few houses along these stretches. I would say going from Adelaide to Perth there were only scattered farms; maybe you would see two or three in a day. Most of the time it was empt y, beautiful country, but very Australian. Everything looked delicate and very old. The eucalyptus trees looked to be relics from the past. They are quite different from the robust trees we see here in the U.S. And eucalyptus and poplars were the only two kinds of trees. That was a good trip. I remember going north of Perth and stopping the first day out. That was w hen John Glenn circled the globe for the first time [in Friendship 7 on Feb. 20, 1962]. Standing out ther e in the desert, I could look up and see the orbiting spacecraft. M: Did you know it was going to happen? L: I knew it was going to happen. M: Were there newspapers or radio out there? L: Yes. This was Perth, a city of well ov er a million people. While I was in Perth, I went to the university and was admitted as a Ph.D. candidate. One of t he things I did when I was there was pick up shells from Eighty Mile Beach, which is along the northwest coast of Australia. For years, I had looked at t he map of Eighty Mile Beach and thought how nice it would be to be there. It was the most empty stretch of coastli ne that exists in any civilized country. It is really 400 miles long, not eighty miles. When I finally got to the beach, an in teresting thing happened. I was driving the land rover maybe a quarter of a mile away from the ocean. I could hear the ocean, but I could not see it because of low-lying dunes between me and the ocean. I finally drove as close as I thought I could get leaving t he road, and I walked over the dunes. It was very hot; it is always hot there. As I told you before, I really love to swim. I had not been swimming in the ocean since I had left Sydney. I finally got on top of the dunes, looked out at this broad beautiful beach, and ran down to the water. I was just about to dive in when I saw a shark's fin almost totally out of the water, no more than fifty feet offshore, right in front of where I was going to go in. As it turned out, I was just north of Shark Bay. Sharks are numerous along that coast, and they swim right up to shore. It al so turned out that the water is so shallow that the shark itself had to be a quarter of a m ile out or it would be uncovered. But they are dangerous even in that s hallow water. Shark attacks were quite common in Australia; there were quite a few while I was there.

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32 Anyway, I did not go swimming. I pi cked up a basket coral--they were just lying around like baskets--and all kinds of shells. The beach was just l oaded with them. I got about two bushels of shells, went back to t he land rover, and proceeded to drive north. I was filming all the time. When I got a little further north, I stopped at a mission and picked up two aborigines, one of t hem fresh from the bush, and we went inland into the desert. Our quest was the marsupial mole, a marsupial that looks and acts like a mole, but, of course, is not. Moles are placental mammals like the insectivore we have here, the thing that digs up the lawn. M: Oh, yes. L: This is one of the most striking cases of evolutionary convergence. Well, we did not find the mole. But I had a very interesting ti me with these two aborigines because it was the first time I had actually camped out with these people who knew the desert so well. While we were in camp, little wisps of smoke came up on the horizon, and they grew and grew. The aborigines told me that this was the Ilbajada tri be, a wild tribe of aborigines that had not been civilized. They wore no clot hing. The men occasi onally went into the cattle stations and took jobs temporarily and then they would go back out. But the women and children had never been in civilization. I thought this was fantastic and that I should get some pictures of this. A complication arose, however. It tu rned out that one of t he aborigines I was with was the son of a tribal chief, but not of the Il bajada tribe. He said that he would certainly be killed if the Ilbajada came upon him, because the tribes were enemies. This is what they actually believed. These two guys coul d not agree. One of them was an Ilbajada, and he wanted to go back to see his people; he had been gone for four years. But he was outranked by the chief's son, so we left. The fire was so big by that time that we could still see it eighty miles away as we drove back toward the ocean. M: What was the fire for? L: Well, I was told it was a hunting fire. T hey set a fire to force the animals to run from their cover. They wait for the animals and kill them with a boomerang. They would let the fires burn wild, and they would just spr ead out and keep hunting. We could still see the smoke when we were eighty miles away. I never got to see the people who set the fire, but it was interesting to be that close to them. I had been in Australia for over ten mont hs. On the way to Darwin, where I was going to meet Harry Atwood, I stopped on a cattl e station and found one of the cowboys, Warner Brosnan, who was managing the station. I wanted to put him in the film. He was the ideal leading man for our Australian travelogue. I promised to make him famous if he would act in this little sequence I wanted to do on the cattle stations. I continued to Darwin, picked up Harry Atwood, and then went back down to Brosnan's.

PAGE 33

33 He had a driveway that was over fifty miles long, so it was one of the most distant outback stations in all of Au stralia. It looped off south of the Great Northern Highway of Australia, and the house really was about fifty m iles from the driveway. We finished the sequence and stayed there for about two wee ks. I did a sequence on a cattle drive using camels, which is their beast of burden, and it came out quite well. Harry and I shot about 10,000 feet of film I had shot about half that film on the way around Australia the preceding eight to ten months, and the last two months we were in Australia we finished it up. And Harry took it back to the states with him. I returned to the States a little late r, back to Arizona, and st arted working at the University of Arizona on a Ph.D. I had planned to return to Australia and take my Ph.D. at the University of Western Australia. I found everything pointed to staying in the U.S., and I have not been back to Australia since, although it is still something I plan to do. M: What year was it when you got back to Arizona? L: The end of 1962. I left at the end of 1961. I worked on this film, and we had a very good showing in New York in 1964. The Aust ralian film was called The Great Unfenced a title that Warner Brosnan suggested. He said that if he ever wrot e a book at his home in Australia, he would call it The Great Unfenced That movie won fi rst place in the New York Film Festival, and that was out of 880 professional entri es. It was very profitable, because McGraw-Hill bought rights and distri buted it for nearly ten years. I eventually got my Ph.D. at the Univer sity of Arizona--I was in and out of school until 1971. In the course of that period, I met Gloria Capco from the Philippines. In fact, coming back from Australia, on September 10, 1962, I saw a Philippine girl saying farewell to her family. We both got on the pl ane to go to the United States, but I got off to stay in Manila for awhile. A few years later, in 1966, I went to Massachusetts to see my folks. I had not been back since I left in 1961. It was Christmas, and my mother said, "I want you to go up to Boston and pick up a foreign student. She is coming for dinner." So I went up to Boston and met Gl oria, picked her up, and brought her to dinner in Wareham. I was very much attracted to her, and I saw her again the next week. It turned out that she was the same girl I had seen in the airport four y ears before, in 1962. We were married in 1968. She got her Ph.D. from M.I.T. Her disse rtation topic is singlecell protein, which was of interest to the Philippines because it is a way to grow prot ein quickly and in great quantities from bacteria. This also intrigued me, because I did my dissertation in zoology. Mine was actually a mathematical them e for defining the shape of animals; it is just one of the many possible ways to do it. The idea was to try to define a curve that represented the best fit to a given shape. T hat would be a mathemat ical description in the form of a polar-coordinate equation. The reasoning behind all this was that the shape of an animal was something that develops internally through growth, and growth is fairly well quantified. There are growth

PAGE 34

34 equations that are quite usef ul. If you apply the right parameters in an equation for growth, you can get the shape equat ion. In essence, as an animal grows, it graphs its body shape into three-dimensional space over time. It is logical to a ssume that it can be quantified. The question is whether there are any invariants to animal shape. Are there any constraints that make animals work, that give us a body plan compat ible with the growth and function of the animal? That was the ques tion I was asking. On e reason to assume that you would have some kind of constant is, for example, bats, birds, and various other animals can fly. They are aer odynamically suitable for flight--g liding flight and full flight. Also, some animals are streamlined; they have almost no wake. Now, these are not random shapes. These are very highly spec ified. As another example, marine engineers have not yet been able to match the streamlining of porpoises. My premise was that the ability of a streamlined organism to fly or do anything aerodynamic depends on shape. If that shape can be defined by an equation, then you would have a set of equations (or a single equat ion) that define the shape from outside, that is, from external criteria. And if you can define the same shape by a growth equation from the inside of the animal, that is, from the st art of its life as a single cell, then you have defined the same surface, namel y, the outside of the animal, by two separate equations that add up to the identical solution of t he surface of the animal. This occurs in all animals throughout their life at all times. Therefore, what appears to be a coincidence, namely, gr owth and steamlining satisfying a single set of equations, cannot be a coincidence. There must be some invariant, equation, or expression that has to remain invariant. I did arrive at an equation that is a wave form, and I eventually wrote it up and published it. It is interesting to note that the theory had been approached by other people recently. In fact, I got a letter just t oday from a professor at the University of Arizona, and he included a publication from Sout h Africa written by the head of the department of orthopedic surgery at the University of Natal in Durban, South Africa, that is quite like my theory on the invariance of animal shape. M: Who was the professor? L: His name is Lendell Cockrum. M: Who was the man in Africa? L: Theodore Sarkin. I pursued this idea for a long time. What it really boils down to is that if you have certain shapes that are pr edetermined by their molecular structure, and if the organism has to grow in a conti nuous sequence of sizes, then you can explain evolutionary convergence. T here is a definite limit to the amount of morphological variation. In other words, there is a body plan that cannot be ignored or cannot be deviated from. Setting the evolutionary chain in motion in a certain direction could

PAGE 35

35 logically result in nearly identical outcomes, such as the marsupial mouse and the house mouse, the marsupial wolf and the placental wolf. This is still something to be invest igated. It is way beyond our current biological knowledge. But I think we are getting to the point with computers and with advanced knowledge of molecular biology that we will understand what life is trying to do, why these molecules have come together, what liv ing systems must do in order to survive and evolve, which to me is the basic quest of biology: what is life about. To understand life, we have to understand it in te rms of mathematics and physics. Anyway, Gloria and I left Tucson in late 1971. We went to Massachusetts for awhile, and while I was back in Wareham, I got a j ob as the research director with the Environmental Devices Corporation. This was quite different from anything I had prepared for, although it matched my background in ecology and marine biology. This project grew scallops by aquaculture and fed scallops on algae. We figured there was a lot of money to be made because scallops gr ow fast--you can grow a crop in nine months--and they eat algae. The problem was that nobody with the exception of a fellow by the name of Bill Duggin, had been abl e to grow them from egg to adult. We hired Bill Duggin to grow scallops, and I grew algae. Algae, of course, is single-cell protein, pretty much like what my wif e had produced. Her bacteria were for human consumption; my algae were for mollusc cons umption, which is one step removed from human. The important thing about algae is they convert sunlight and inorganic chemicals to carbohydrate, protein, and protoplasm. Algae can grow faster than most plants, being single-celled, non-vascular plants, as opposed to other plants that ar e vascular in which the cells are linked together with a circulatory system--phloem, xylem, and so forth. Algae are of interest because they can conver t solar energy to chemical energy, as other plants do, but at a more rapid rate. The idea was that we could feed scallops very cheaply on algae and yield a high-priced product, because scallops were selling for about three dollars a pound. We had some success; we hatched over 200 million la rvae. Everything was going great. They were developing as they should. But in the fourth stage, development went awry. The embryos in all cases started to twist and die, and we never succeeded in growing one out of a single cell. But the algae was going on strong, so I continued to work on that until the beginning of 1975. At that time, I could see that if I wanted to work on algae, a private company in Massachusetts was not the place to be doi ng it, and the company agreed. So Gloria, Teddy (our one-year-old), and I picked up our belongings and moved to Florida. I went on a search for a place where I could do res earch on algae and continue this project. At the University of Florida, there was a position open, not necessarily for an algae research, but for someone who could handle t he water pollution problems. Florida, and elsewhere in the South, has to deal with livestock producers, and they needed someone

PAGE 36

36 who could help clean up the environment by working on the pollution caused by livestock. Algae is one solution, partly because it gr ows so quickly. The productivity that we get now in algae is about thirty grams per squar e meter per day, during the summer. That amounts to about 100 tons per hectare per year, dry weight, which is at least ten times the amount of protein you c an get from any other crop. Algae is roughly 50 percent protein, like soybean. That figure amounts to about forty tons per acre per year, of which half, twenty tons, is protein. With soybeans, you would be lu cky to get one ton of protein per year. With this in mind, I pursued the idea of using waste water discharged from barns in particular. Barns have no sewage treatm ent plants, and the po llution from animal manure is equal to or great er than that caused by hum ans. The animal population actually outweighs the human population, at least in the United States, and the amount of waste produced is roughly ten times what the human population produces. So there is a giant problem that goes unmentioned for the most part, and certainly unsolved. In the past ten years, I have been wo rking with algae, particu larly on the conversion of dissolved-nutrients water to hi gh-protein biomass that can be used in agriculture, fish, and even scallops. Algae is the basis of the food chain in the ocean and in fresh water lakes and ponds because it is what converts nut rients and sunlight into the first stage of the lower-trophic level of the ecosystem. What I see in the future is that t here is going to be a protein crisis on this planet, along with everything else. One thing I learned in the Amazon was that the jungle is not too bountiful, and what you need is protein--fish, monkeys, or whatever. There is not that much available, and with the human population expanding the way it is, I think edible protein for humans and animals will be the final crisis. The energy crisis will help bring it on, but we are ri ght now subsidizing our crop production with huge amounts of fuel--for plows, tractors, and, during harves t, combines. We also use a huge amount of fertilizer, mainly a chemical product of the Habec process, for example, which uses a large amount of fuel. Eventually, we are going to have a shortage of not only fuel, but of protein for consumption. This shortage is going to be hast ened since humans measure our standard of living by whether or not we eat meat and how much m eat we actually eat. Wherever you go in the world, people really do not get as much m eat as they would like to. By taking food that could be eaten by man and feeding it to animals, you lose about 90 percent of the food value. Ten percent gets c onverted into meat, and we prefer to eat that, particularly in the United States. But it is true all over Europe, and it is true especially in Asia. In Africa, it is no longer possible for people who are already starving. But I can see the production of algae as a means of meeting the protein crisis with an entirely new source of protein. It is hardly goi ng to be enough, of course, to f eed the world, but it will make possible much more protein production than we have now. That is one of the reasons

PAGE 37

37 why I pursued this. Algae does hold theoretical possibilities, and we have shown that algae works. M: Where else in the world have you visited? L: I have been to southeast Asia. M: Where in southeast Asia? L: Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines, and Taiwan. I have also been to South America (Peru), Central America, and Israel. In Israel, they are doing a lot of work. In fact, we are working right now on a cooperative grant with Israel to c ontinue research in this area. One of the things I think is interesti ng is that my wife's uncle in the Philippines, who was a former minister of fisheries for the entire nation, has gone into aquaculture. He produces milk fish, which is an algae-eating fi sh. They are grown in pens in shallow lakes in Asia. He is able to harvest from his roughly 100 acres of fish ponds something like 200 tons a year. And he gets $1,000 ton, so he is ma king roughly $200,000 a year on fish and algae. I, in fact, have just acquir ed some huge tilapia fish that grow to about two feet long, and they are algae feeders. What we are trying to do is devel op food chains based on algae. The algae, of course, is also used to clean the waste water. As the algae grows in polluted water, it cleans the water so it can be reused, and, at the same time, it converts the dissolved nutrients to protein. That concept is my cu rrent occupation, and I am hoping that things will continue to develop as they have. I am very satisfied with my position at the agricultural-engineer ing department at the University of Florida. I hope that this overall plan can be implemented in places like the Philippines. Gloria and I intend to go back to t he Philippines one of thes e days. In fact, I have been over there twice, most recently with the National Academy of Sciences, trying to advance this project. There is one other thing we have done t hat I think is of interest. We have been able to take cyanobacteria, which are conver gent with algae, and transfer genes from the bacterium Escherichia coli into the cyanobacteria. By transferring genes from one organism to another, we can produce gene products that is, specialized proteins. One of my ideas had been to take genes, for ex ample, the human growth hormone, and put this into bacteria or algae. Then t he gene can be cloned and expanded into a large population, and that will translate into protei ns. The human growth hormone can then be extracted and used as a drug. The reason I bring up human growth hormone is because Genentech has succeeded in isolating the gene for human growth horm one and putting it in a bacterium, and they are mass producing this very valuable subs tance, which used to cost about $10,000 a

PAGE 38

38 gram. They are producing it in bacterial cu ltures. Bacterial cultures are nice because they are effective. My point is that if you put the sa me gene in an alga, then you can grow it out in relatively low-cost surr oundings using solar energy, which will yield a huge crop of whatever valuable substance was insert ed in the organism. This can be done for a very small capital investment. This is what is needed in the Third World. It is relatively high technology, but one that can be done cheaply. It is based largely on our knowledge--we know about genes, and we know how to manipulate them. Once the knowledge is implemented, it bec omes a rather simple and lo w-capital type operation. I think this has big possibilities. That is ju st one of many things I see coming out of the algal research. So with that I will close. M: Thank you very much, Dr. Lincoln. I am glad you did all this. You seem to be happy about it once you got started. Thank you very much.


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Edward Palmer Lincoln
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Title: Edward Palmer Lincoln
Physical Description: Book
Publication Date: 1987
Copyright Date: 1987
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Table of Contents
    Copyright
        Copyright
    Interview
        Page 1
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Full Text



COPYRIGHT NOTICE


This Oral History is copyrighted by the Interviewee
and the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program on
behalf of the Board of Trustees of the University of
Florida.

Copyright, 2005, University of Florida.
All rights, reserved.

This oral history may be used for research,
instruction, and private study under the provisions
of Fair Use. Fair Use is a provision of United States
Copyright Law (United States Code, Title 17, section
107) which allows limited use of copyrighted
materials under certain conditions.
Fair use limts the amount of material that may be
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For all other permissions and requests, contact the
SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida










UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM

Interviewee: Edward Palmer Lincoln

Interviewer: Marian Ludlow
March 3, 1987



Since both the interviewee, Dr. Edward Lincoln, and the interviewer, Marian Ludlow,
have the same last initial, Dr. Lincoln will be identified as L: and Ms. Ludlow as M:.


M: This is an interview with Dr. Edward Palmer Lincoln at his office at the University of
Florida. Dr. Lincoln is an associate professor of agricultural engineering. The interview
is being conducted by Marian Ludlow, and a final copy will be kept in the archives of the
Oral History Department at the University of Florida. Today is March 3, 1987. Ed,
where were you born and when?

L: I was born in October of 1930, at the beginning of the Depression, in New York City.
I lived in New York for approximately twelve years part-time. We used to spend
summers at a farm in Wareham, Massachusetts that had been in the family for many
years. That was always the high point of the year--to take off for the Wareham house
and be up there on the farm. My memories of New York are not very pleasant. It was
not a pretty place back in the Depression. And being too young to appreciate the finer
aspects of the town--although the museums were good, and I did miss them when I
left--I was very glad when we picked up stakes and left New York in 1943. I was twelve
years old when we moved to Wareham.

M: Who were your parents?

L: My father was Dr. James R. Lincoln, and my mother was Helen Palmer Lincoln. My
father was born in Wareham in the very house we went to live in, and my mother was
born in New Orleans. Her father was Edward C. Palmer, owner of the Palmer Paper
Company, which still does business in New Orleans. Her father died when she was
seventeen years old. She went to Vassar [College in Poughkeepsie, NY], and my father
went to Harvard [University in Cambridge, MA], where he earned his bachelor's degree,
as well as an M.D. He was always very attached to Wareham; he was very glad to get
out of the big city and back to Wareham. I think he felt that he was getting too old for
competition in New York. He wanted to be a small-town doctor, so he became one. In
fact, he became the kind of small-town doctor we do not have anymore, the kind who
used to go on house calls, provide the care that you needed in your home, and charge
three dollars. He carried all the modern technology around in a little black bag. That









was the medical technology of the time.


M: He also may have come on a sleigh in the winter, right?

L: Yes, he did go in the sleigh a few times during gas rationing--when there was snow
on the ground. We had the horses and a sleigh. That made news.

M: How about your brothers?

L: I had three brothers, all younger than I. James Rufus Lincoln, Jr.isacivilengineer
and lives in Denver, Colorado. His family is quite interesting. He and his wife Marty are
avid skiers, and his son Edward became an expert skier. In fact, he became a world
champion acrobatic skier in the early 1970s. Edward married Jonie Torry, who was the
women's world champion acrobatic skier at the time. Ed and Jonie's daughter Ann is
national-championship caliber, although I do not know if she has actually won a
championship. Rufus and Marty are both on the ski patrol of the Arapaho Basin. I think
they are at Copper Mountain this year, if they are still active skiers. Their son Bob just
retired as a naval officer. Bob's wife Kerry is a career naval officer. He decided to get
out of the navy, since his wife was so much in the navy. Her father is an officer in the
navy, I guess. Her maiden name was Jones, and she is a direct descendant of John
Paul Jones, the naval hero.

I have two other brothers. One is Tom, who lives in Pasadena, California. He is a
chief engineer from Microdot. They make fiber optics and a lot of materials for the
military. He is married to Jennifer, or was. They have one son, Jamie. I have another
brother who lives in Hawaii, Peter C. Lincoln. He has a bachelor's degree in
mathematics and a Ph.D. in linguistics. He is one of the few non-native, white speakers
of the Bonani language of Bougainville. He is married to a Japanese girl named Satako,
and they have one son, Ken Koga. They are living in Honolulu right now.

M: Yours is a well-educated family.

L: Yes, I guess we are pretty well educated. Pete is doing good work, or at least he
was when he was in linguistics. He is now teaching mathematics, and I think he is
involved with the navy, teaching computer science. Computer science is really his thing
because it combines linguistics and mathematics. He is probably going to stay with that
and not go back to the jungle islands of the Pacific. He did spend some time in New
Guinea.

M: Okay, we have talked about your parents and siblings. How about your
family--Gloria and the kids?

L: My wife Gloria is a Filipina, and we have two kids: Edward Palmer Lincoln, Jr., who
is thirteen, and Laura Capco, who is now eight. Gloria wife is a biochemist. She has a
bachelor's in radio chemistry from the University of the Philippines, and a master's and a









Ph.D. from M.I.T. She is actually into nutritional biochemistry and food science. She
worked on the manufacture of single-cell protein from bacteria or carbohydrate
substrate, which has always struck me as a very interesting field.

M: When you moved to Wareham, life changed as far as your activities, from living in
the city to living in the country--climbing trees. I remember tree houses and that type of
thing.

L: It did not change totally, because we were there during the summer, anyway. But it
changed in kind of a drastic way in that we arrived during the Second World War, and
the house was in disrepair. The furnace broke down the first morning we were there.
We were in the midst of gas rationing and meat rationing, and there was nothing new
that you could buy. The farm was run down. We made it into a real farm--we bought
cows, we had horses all the time, we bought and raised chickens, and we had pigs.

Within a very short time after we arrived, my brother Rufus and I were full-fledged
farmers after school. That was a bit heavy on us because it was a seven-day-a-week
job. It was during the war, and we needed the produce, eggs, milk, butter, and cream.
In fact, one of our cows died. It strangled itself on a tether, and I came back from school
one day and found it nearly dead. So we butchered the cow on the spot, and we ate the
cow.

M: You butchered it, or did you have a butcher do it?

L: Well, we both did it. We did a lot of butchering. We butchered the pigs, too. We did
have help with the cows, I remember. But I recollect that that cow did not taste very
good.

M: I would not think so.

L: The life was good, as far as I was concerned. I never did like New York. I do not
think New York is a good place for an active kid to grow up. I really enjoyed the country
life and the farm life. I was always a scientist at heart. In fact, all the time in New York
during my grade school years, I had a microscope and chemistry set. I took chemistry
lessons when I was in fifth grade. I was always interested in science, and it was kind of
hard to practice biological sciences in New York. There just was not much open country.
I remember going out to collect specimens in Central Park in the lakes--they were pretty
dead. There was not much to be seen.

Living in Wareham was a great change. It expanded my horizons, and I really took to
it, increasingly so. That was bad in a way, because it kind of detracted from school
work. When I arrived, I had a very good background from Trinity school in New York. I
went to Wareham High School, and I got to be less than a good student. I spent too
much time out in the countryside fishing, hunting, and collecting things. The country was
educational, but it did not show up on the report card.









M: What about your house? When was that built?


L: The house itself was probably built in 1690-something. The first record of it is a
deed in 1710 when it was sold, which means that is was older than that; it probably
dates to the 1600s. That was 277 years ago. It was bought by the Lincoln family in the
late 1700s, and it is been in the family essentially ever since. For awhile it was in the
hands of our relatives, I think the Schells, and then it was returned to the Lincolns.

We have been there so long that it is called Lincoln Hill--it is onthetopof Lincoln
Hill. It has gradually been enlarged--in fact, too much so. It was salt-box house with all
the old decor. It was built by a shipbuilder, so it has nautical-type shelves in the corners
and nautical-type beams in the roof. The old part of the house is very distinctive. Some
of the window panes are blown-glass window panes. The furniture of the period is quite
the charming part of the house. An addition was put on in back--a kitchen, dining room,
and a second floor. That enlarged it to about 3,000 square feet, I would say, so it has a
lot of rooms, a lot of windows, and a lot of doors. But I think it detracts from the original
house itself.

Then, in 1910, it was enlarged again by my grandfather, James Minor Lincoln. It now
has something like seventy-five windows, eight doors, eighteen or twenty rooms, three
attics, and three cellars. It is something of a monstrosity, but it is still historic, and many
of the things in it are of historical interest. My grandfather James Minor Lincoln had a
great interest in Abraham Lincoln, so he had a great number of Abraham Lincoln
statues, portraits, pictures, and memorabilia all over the house.

M: What was the relationship in the family?

L: We tried very hard to establish some connection between us and Abraham Lincoln. I
think the weak point in the connection is that Abraham Lincoln had an obscure past.
Nobody knew exactly what his genealogy was, or at least my grandfather was not able
to pick it up. But he did establish that there were only four Lincolns who were related,
and that they came to America in the early 1600s. Both of the Lincolns in this country
were descended from these four cousins, I believe. That does make it look as though
we are all related. Another relative is the Roosevelt family, Helena Roosevelt, who was
closely related to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's wife Eleanor. She was also a Roosevelt
before she got married, so, in fact, we are related to both, but more closely to the
Roosevelts.

M: Did you finish high school in Wareham?

L: Yes, I finished high school there in 1948.

M: Then what did you do?

L: Well, in those days, it was quite uncommon to go to college, at least in that part of









the world. It was an economically depressed area. No male graduate from my class
went to college the first year. I know some of the women went to college when they
graduated, but none of the men did. That was not unusual for then, although it is
unusual now. In fact, even by the time my brother Pete graduated, more than half went
to college. But none of the men from my graduating class went to college.

I went to the north woods; I went to Maine. The first work I did was harvesting
cranberries, and I made a lot of money. We worked long hours, sometimes a hundred
hours a week, for ninety cents an hour. I remember making ninety dollars in a week,
which was good money in those days. I pocketed most of it.

With that money, I bought traps and camping equipment, and I went to the
unorganized territory of eastern Maine in the fall of 1948. My father went with me. We
had a new aluminum canoe, and we went into a place called Hot Hole Pond, which
belonged to Les Goodwin. The name is rather peculiar because it was one cold hole
between those mountains. My father and I went in at night, although we did not intend to
go in at night. That was on my birthday; I think it was my eighteenth birthday. We went
up the Dead River in this canoe on a cold October night until we came to Hot Hole Pond.
Then we put the canoe into the pond and paddled across. I had been there before, and
I am trying to remember where that cabin was. There was nothing but sheer darkness
ahead of us, but we managed to find the cabin in the middle of the night. We camped
there, and eventually set up another camp. I started my trapping, and my father went
back to Wareham and left me there for several weeks by myself. This had been my
dream for many years, to become a wilderness trapper.

M: What did you trap?

L: I trapped mink. Again, it brings home the difference from then to now in the
economy and the dollar. Wild mink was selling for forty dollars a pelt, and that was big
money then. There were a lot of people in the woods trapping mink, so I had
competition. I like to think I knew where the competition was, and I do not think they
ever found my traps. But I remember spying on these guys and seeing them walk down
the rivers checking their traps. Actually, the pressure was too great and the price was
too high, and the market collapsed while I was in the woods. As a result, I got only
about one-tenth of the value that I expected to get for the few pelts I had caught. So it
was really a financial bust, but I learned a lot.

M: Is that all you caught was mink?

L: Mink and muskrat were the only salable pelts at that time.

M: Muskrat? People ate muskrat?

L: Oh, yes.









M: Did you ever eat mink?


L: No, I was not that hungry. Or carnivores. We had a thing about eating carnivores. I
do not know why, but it generally was not done. We had a problem eating rats, too. But
muskrats were very good eating. There was a lot of good fishing, and I did a lot of deer
hunting. It was a good trip. I was there until the end of November, maybe later. It was
not a great financial venture, but it could have been. In those days, if the prices had
remained up, I could have made some money. But I gave up trapping as a profession.

Also, I was bothered by the trapping itself. The usual steel traps caught the animal
by the foot. Even though in those days we did not have the same sentimentality [as
today concerning cruelty to animals], it did bother me to be trapping these small animals
with my steel traps and just selling the skins for dollars. It was not the thing to do if you
are bothered by that, and I remember it did bother me. I gave up trapping as a
commercial venture, but eventually I went into it as a scientific venture, which was quite
different. That was in 1948. I got a job at the local shipyard in Wareham in the winter of
1949.

M: You mentioned Mr. Goodwin.

L: Leslie Goodwin owned the shipyard and the camp. He was a great benefactor at
that time, and he still is. He is still alive and is a healthy eighty-eight years old now. I
saw him last December with a gun on his arm hunting duck. He is a tough old guy and a
very shrewd businessman. He came to Wareham in 1940 or 1941, during the war. He
bought the Cape Cod Ship Building Company and sold ships to the coast guard. He
made some money on a military contract. When the war was over, he was the first to
start making fiber glass boats. He converted all of their operations to fiber glass and has
continued to this day making fiber glass sailboats. He became quite well-to-do. It was a
good business. His son Gordon Goodwin now runs the business, but Mr. Goodwin is
still active in the business, too. They are two of the best salesmen.

Les Goodwin and I used to go fishing a lot. We went tuna fishing and striper fishing
on one of his old coast guard launches that he made, and we had a great time. I have
high regard for him. My brother Rufus also went with us; the three of us spent a lot of
time duck hunting, deer hunting, and fishing. We learned a lot from Les.

M: After you finished your trapping, what then?

L: We put up the small house down on Hathoway Road. My father wanted to take the
trees that blew down in the hurricane of 1945 and make a house out of them. So while I
was working at the shipyard, we transported a bunch of those logs down to the shipyard
and cut them on a big circular saw down there into boards. We then transported the
boards by horse and wagon back to Hathoway Road and put together that little
twenty-eight square foot house on Hathoway Road. My brother Rufus, Al, and I put that
house together over the winter.










Come springtime, I decided to go to college. But more pressing was a trip to Mexico.
I decided to go down to Mexico and see the southern part of the world. I had spent all
of my time in New England (Maine) and coal country. So I went down to Mexico with a
friend named Bill Marburg, and we had a good time. We took a 1941 Ford down there
and drove through Mexico. It was quite picturesque. That would be in the summer of
1949. Mexico was less of a tourist trap and was less economically depressed than it is
now.

We got as far as Acapulco in the old car. Then we were robbed, and I lost all my
money. I had fallen asleep on the beach one night, and when I came back, the car
windows were broken. I went to the police station, and they said they would look for my
money and my goods, but they added they did not have much of a chance of finding
them.

So we headed back from Acapulco to Laredo, Texas. We tried to make it in one day.
What happened then was we got in an accident in the desert just south of Laredo, about
eighty miles south of the border, in the middle of the night. The car rolled about three
times. I happened to be sleeping in the back seat. We were carrying a bunch of empty
Coke bottles in the back of the car, and I got thrown around like a pea in a pod. I really
lacerated my back on these bottles, which were just completely smashed. We were in
the desert, the car was upside down, and I remember crawling out of the window. The
lights were still on, and it was raining. I felt my back, and blood was just pouring out and
handfuls of broken glass were sticking out of my back. I felt faint, so I laid down.

To make a long story short, we eventually got picked up. I went to a first aid station,
and the doctor, who was very competent I thought, sewed up those cuts, but a good bit
of the glass remained inside. About six months later, I began to have pains in my back,
so they took x-rays. They thought these things they saw in my back were bone, but
actually they were pieces of glass that looked very much like bone. I had an operation
for that, and I eventually recovered.

We finally made it to Laredo, Texas. My friend Bill Marburg was thrown in jail
because the Mexicans claimed that he was trying to murder me, which was an
interesting slant. Until he could be cleared of attempted murder, he was under arrest.

M: What had he done that made them think he tried to murder you?

L: This is the way the lawyer explained it. They said when that kind of an accident
occurs, the immediate impression of the police is that it is probably planned. He said, "In
my country, there are many crimes. You would not understand this, but we look through
every suspicion when somebody is hurt in an accident like that and the other person is
not hurt. We look with suspicion on that."

We eventually got back home. Following that, I went to the University of Montana in









Missoula in the fall of 1949 and majored in wildlife technology. One reason I wanted to
go to the University of Montana was because it was open country with good hunting and
fishing. I was interested in wildlife technology, as it was considered scientific. In those
days, science was not the same thing it is now. Even in the post-war years, research
scientists were generally university professors or were working for some kind of institute
like the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. Ph.D.s were very rare; many college
professors did not have a Ph.D. It seemed to me at that time that wildlife technology,
which was really law enforcement and a kind of field biologist position, was a better
paying job and a more interesting, more stable job [than science]. I was wrong. So I
eventually changed my major to pure science. After two years at the University of
Montana, I transferred to the University of Arizona.

M: Why did you transfer?

L: Well, I thought the cold weather was something that everybody put up with, but I
think I got my fill of it in Montana. We spent a lot of time elk hunting, which is a very
vigorous sport. It gets you way out away from the city. We spent a lot of time up in the
mountains. When I say we, I mean my roommate, Joe Blackburn; another friend of
mine, Robert Kerr; and me. We hunted for elk, which was very interesting. The ROTC
at the university issued us M-1 rifles and military cartridges to use for hunting. They
figured that was a good thing for young officers, and it was. We used to go with M-1
automatic rifles, 30-06. I shot a couple of elk and a deer.

I remember we wounded an elk way up in the fish creek area in the Rockies quite late
one evening. The bullet had gone through the hind quarter of this cow elk, and it was
bleeding badly. I felt badly about that. I did not want to lose this animal. But the cow
kept climbing up over this ridge and down the far side to the north, way north of where
we intended to go. It got dark, and I kept on chasing the animal. The slope was so
steep that I could reach out with my rifle and touch the top of a fifty-foot tree--that is how
vertical it was. This elk kept going. It got dark, terribly cold, and the wind was blowing,
so I finally gave up. I hated to do that. I followed my own tracks back to the top of the
ridge.

By this time, it was after dark; it must have been 5:00 in the evening. I used to dress
lightly because elk hunting is very active hunting. I usually wore a t-shirt, a light
turtleneck sweater, an army shirt over that, and wool pants. I was carrying some
chocolate and an apple in my pocket for lunch or a snack. I sat down on the ridge and
had a piece of chocolate and the apple. It was so cold that the apple was frozen and the
chocolate was like a piece of rock. But the thing that really got to me is when I was
sitting there, my t-shirt froze to my skin. I figured it was about ten below zero with a fairly
strong wind.

Meanwhile, my friend, Joe Blackburn, who had stayed on the top of the ridge, was
virtually frozen to death. I said, "Joe, we ought to go down this slope over to Fish Creek
and take Fish Creek back to the camp instead of trying to go back the way we came."









He said, "I do not want to do that. I do not think we should do that because we have
never been there before." I said okay, so we followed our tracks to get back.

I think we got back at about 10:00 that night. Those camps were such that they
never went out to look for you until the next day. You cannot blame them; they had
made it home, so you should, too. It was not really for amateurs. That country was for
good-old boys, hunters who knew what they were doing. Well, Bud Bacon, who just died
this year, ran that camp, and he knew that country better than anybody. I told him about
trying to go down what I thought would be a shortcut to Fish Creek, but he said, "Oh, no.
People try that every year, and we usually end up pulling their bodies out in the spring."
They would freeze to death. It was about fifty miles, and the way we came was less
than twenty.

Anyway, I took a dim view of the cold weather in Montana. I began think that maybe
Arizona is the more sensible place to be, and I think I am right. I went to Arizona, and I
majored in zoology first. I took a speech course, and the teacher was Mike Mansfield.
He was a fledgling young politician. In fact, he was not even in the senate at the time;
he was a local politician. But he was a very good teacher. He gave me the only D I ever
got in my college career, but I still thought he was a good teacher. As you know, he
became a famous senator. He is now the ambassador to Japan.

M: So you were in Montana for two years.

L: I was there for two years. It was an interesting time, but I was glad to leave.

M: What did you study there? Zoology?

L: Yes, but the curriculum was called wildlife technology. Actually, it was mainly pure
science--physics, botany and zoology; it was a very good curriculum. But then I went
into zoology as a pure science at the University of Arizona at Tucson. That was in 1951.
I graduated in 1953 with a bachelor's in zoology and minors in botany and anthropology.


While I was there, I managed to get about $1,500; my aunt died and left me a
government bond that was worth about $1,500. This was in 1952. Well, that summer, I
decided to go to Africa, so I bought what they call an open-jaw, round-trip ticket from the
U.S. to Douala, Cameroon. It was called French Cameroon in those days. That ticket
picked up again in Johannesburg, South Africa. The whole stretch across central Africa
from just below the hump of the west coast of Africa, which is called the bight of Africa,
to Johannesburg was open. I decided I was going to hitchhike and do whateverworked.
It was about 2,000 miles. The path was from the bight of Africa across the Congo into
Rhodesia [present-day Zimbabwe] and then into [the Republic of] South Africa. I stayed
in Douala for about a week, I guess. I took along a pack and an old Kodak camera and
some film. I was lucky, because an expedition for the Natural History Museum in
conjunction with the National Geographic [Society] happened to be staying at the Akwa









Palace Hotel, right where I staked camp. I got some expert advice from Walter Webber.

M: Who was Walter Webber?

L: Walter Webber was a famous artist who worked for the society at that time. I think a
lot of his pictures were illustrations, even on the cover of their magazine. I had a
model-k camera, a big, old, hand-crank 16mm Kodak. Volkmar Wenzel, who was a
photographer for National Geographic at the time, gave me some good tips on how to
shoot pictures. I needed them, and they helped a lot.

I remember one incident in Douala that was interesting. (There are a couple I cannot
tell about.) I was always impressed with the way they served wine at ten or twenty cents
a glass at these sidewalk cafes. They had this big barrel of wine, and they would tap a
glass for you, and it was very cheap. I drank several glasses one night after dinner and
then walked downtown. The Akwa Palace Hotel was on a hill on the edge of town. It
had gotten late, so I started walking back up the hill to the Akwa Palace. Well, I got very
tired climbing that hill, and I saw an open pasture (I think it actually was a vacant lot) that
was covered with very tall grass. It was a hot African night, and I thought I would just lie
down there for a few minutes and relax. So I laid down on my back in the middle of this
little field, but I did not go to sleep.

Soon I heard people moving; I heard footsteps a ways off, and they seemed to be
coming from several directions--and towards me. They were very quiet, hushed
footsteps. Eventually, there were four or five people crowded around me standing above
me. I was still lying on my back, but by this time I was pretending that I was asleep.
There was a big silence, and then I heard a match strike. I could even see the light of
the match through my closed eyelids. The match came down closer and closer to my
face. They were trying to see if I was asleep or dead--or drunk. Just as the match came
maybe six inches from my face, I summed up all the energy I could and jumped up in the
air and let out as loud a yell as I could. I just sprang from the ground and took a couple
of these guys with me. They were all hunched over me, all bent over. Boy, they
exploded in all directions! They took off into the darkness, and I never saw them again.
But I am sure I was just inches from losing my wallet and getting a knife in my ribs.
White men were good targets. They still are in that part of Africa.

There was a third guy who taught me a lot, Donald Carter, a very famous zoologist
from the Natural History Museum. The Africans collected animals in those days, and the
museums sent in zoos and other agencies to buy them. We went around to several of
the collections. That was a big business in that era. Anyway, the crew from National
Geographic packed up all their gear and went back to New York.
I took a train from Douala south to a little town called Edea. It was not really a town,
but a small station, just a little circular brick building. I had a 100-pound duffle bag that I
carried on many trips. I got off at Edea, put the bag in this little circular cement building,
and sat down on it. I noticed that there was a dirt road leading down the hill into the
jungle from this little clearing outside the railroad tracks. The train went to Yaounde,









which is the capital city of French Cameroon. Gradually, natives from the environs of
this little station began to collect. These blacks were not really coming to greet me;
actually, we just stood around and looked at each other. I thought that I was in kind of a
spot. Here I was with no food and no transportation, and I am sitting here along the side
of the railroad tracks waiting for the train, which would not come back for two days. I
decided my best move was to go on down that road.

I was about to pick up my pack and leave when I heard a truck coming. Up that road
came a Dodge Powerwagon with New York license plates on it. These two big,
strong-looking guys got out and looked at me. They were really surprised to see me.
One of them asked, "What are you doing here?" I told them, "I just got off the train." He
asked where I had come from, and I said, "I came from Douala, and before that I came
from the States." He asked, "You just came out here today, just now?" I said yes. Then
he said, "Good God, man! This is not the hills of home. This is Africa!" I said, "I am
aware of that."

Anyway, these guys were nice. They were Catholic missionaries, and they had a big
mission station on a river, just a short way below the train station. I went down there
with them. By that time, it was getting to be dark. I remember we went out in the river
with one of the monks.

M: Were the monks natives of Africa?

L: No, they were French; most of them were French. These two guys happened to be
Americans and were camped there at the mission. We went out in a dugout canoe and
had a good time. The monks were kind of amazed that a young American guy--I was
twenty years old at the time--would be wandering around in Africa. I was so glad to see
them. I was very grateful for what they did. In fact, the missionaries all over treated me
very well.

M: Do you remember the names of the missionaries?

L: No, I do not remember their names. I went south from there. I hitchhiked a ride on a
truck and went south quite a ways to a river called the Lobi River [in Gabon]. There was
a missionary there named Sylvian Meyer who put me up for a couple of days. He said,
"Look. You will not have a chance to contact a lot of the people that you want to
contact." I was looking for wild natives; I was looking for the darkest Africa. He
continued, "You will be in danger, and you will not be able to contact people of interest
unless I introduce you. If I introduce you as a churchman, then you will have access to
the top men in the villages from here on south." This was true, so we went to the Lobi
River. The road stopped, and I took a canoe across the river with my pack. On the far
side, there was a little guy who was almost twenty years old. I did not realize it, because
he was immature; he was still boyish. He asked, "May I take your pack, monsieur?" I
even kind of laughed at him, because he did not weigh more than 110 pounds. I
weighed about 200 pounds, and I was tired from carrying that pack because it weighed









about 100 pounds. So I said, "No, I will carry it." He said, "It is a long way, monsieur."

M: Is this a native or a Frenchman?

L: He was a native who spoke French. I also spoke French at the time. In fact, I did
quite well with the Africans because their French was easier for me to understand than
that of the French people. I went south with him, and I had carried that pack for about
twenty minutes or so when I said, "We need to take a rest." We stopped for a minute,
and then he picked up the bag, put it on his head, and took the lead. We were going
down this muddy little trail, and the scenery was beautiful. It was right alongside the
Atlantic Ocean. You could hear the surf pounding out there. This was Tarzan's jungle,
which was one of the things I wanted to see. This was the place where Tarzan
supposedly was born, according to Edgar Rice Burroughs's story.

M: Was the film done in Africa?

L: Not in those days. They were all done in Hollywood with Johnny Weissmuller. Since
then some have been done in Africa, but most of those have been done in east Africa.
The real Tarzan story dealt with the coast of west Africa, in this area where I was. This
was also the home of the lowland gorilla. The gorillas were there then, and they are still
there. In fact, there is a much more vigorous lowland gorilla population than the
mountain gorilla you hear so much about. One of the things I wanted to see was the
gorillas, and I wanted to get them on film. I had not gotten any really good pictures yet.

We went to a little town called Batanga, which was at least four miles from the river.
And that little guy carried that pack from where he picked it up all the way to Batanga
without ever setting it down! It was at least 100 pounds, and he weighed a little over 100
pounds himself. I stopped him a couple times--he was soaking wet, he was sweating all
over, and he was in agony--and I asked him if he was tired. He said, "Oui, monsieur." I
said, "Take a rest." He said, "No, monsieur." And he just kept on going. That was one
of my first experiences with African natives as they were then, and as they are today.

M: Had this missionary contacted him or somebody from his village, which is how he
knew about your coming?
L: They used the drum; Sylvian Meyer had the guy play the drum. His house was
several miles above the Lobi River. So that went across the river, and within a few
minutes, they knew I was coming. I used to hear the drum every night when I was in
Batanga.

I stayed in Batanga for several weeks at the house with a guy named Maweyle Jean,
a great big African who turned out to be the father of this little guy who carried my pack.
I found out the boy's name was Maweyle Artu. And there was a cousin by the name of
Ejawe who was about the same age. I was amazed at how juvenile these guys were.
They were both twenty years old--maybe one of them was nineteen--and they were
sexually immature. I found that this was the case with the Africans. They do not age. I









saw men sixty and seventy years old, and I could see every muscle in their bodies
because they were so healthy. They all had had malaria, and they all complained about
their aches and pains, but those coastal natives were healthy, strong people. Physically,
they were quite enviable.

I stayed there for about three weeks. At first, I was afraid to eat things because I had
had dysentary in Mexico, and I was afraid to get it in that environment because there
was no medical assistance and I had no medicine. I did not have a first aid kit or
anything. But I got more bold after awhile, and soon I was eating everything. Well, I ate
what they allowed me to eat. One interesting item they had was palm oil. They used to
boil palm oil in water to make it white or clear--it is ordinarily a dark orange color. They
would not permit me to have the orange, because they said that is the black man's.
Visitors get the white palm oil, so that was one of their restrictions. I participated in their
life and had a good time. I went out with them to get food. They had a very intricate
kinship system set up where we would go down the coast in a dugout canoe, pick up
100-pound bag of peanuts, then go somewhere else to pick up something else. In turn,
we would bring bananas and things like that. So no money exchanged hands. In one
place I saw beautiful teak furniture--dressers and desks--being made by hand by the
Africans in these little shacks along the coast. It was just fantastic, beautiful
workmanship.

M: Did they use those things, or did they sell them?

L: They sold them up north in Douala. A lot of them were teak carvings of heads of
warriors and things like that--things that sold for about 100 times more in New York. If I
had known what to do and had been so inclined, I would have bought a lot of that. But I
was not into that kind of thing. My main interest was searching out the wild natives. I
was getting a bit discouraged because I was staying with some Seventh Day Adventists.
They had a church service on Friday night, and they were very strict about what they
ate. They were very religious, so it was not quite what I expected.

One interesting thing I used to do was go out at night hunting with a flashlight.
That would be illegal in the United States, and I never did very well.

M: Did you go alone?

L: No, I had a guide. I was scared because of this thing called the Gabon viper. The
Gabon viper is the thickest snake in Africa for its size and lenghth--and the most deady.
They are pit vipers that hunt and strike at night. Neither of us got bitten, but I thought
about it plenty of times. There were elephants, leopards, and pygmies in that little area
of Africa, too. That is something I did not realize; nobody told me, because nobody
knew.

One day Maweyle Jean told me, "If you really want to get some pictures, you ought to
go see the pygmies." I said, "Pygmies? Where are they?" He said, "Oh, they are out in









the jungle a little ways." I found that hard to believe. The next day, Ejawe and I set out
for the pygmy village in the jungle. He carried my camera, and I carried my 30-30 rifle.
It was straight inland from the coast. We came to a little river, and I did not want to get
my feet wet. I used to wear track shoes; track shoes were not the "in" thing in those
days, but I wore them because they were more comfortable, and they were just right for
the jungle. I saw the vines hanging down from the treetops, and, being something of a
gymnast and a weight lifter in those days, I climbed a vine, dropped onto a tree limb,
walked across the river on that limb, and climbed a vine down on the far side--with my
rifle over my shoulder. Ejawe waded the river carrying the camera and a little bag on his
head. He almost got submerged, and he was half-way across by the time I was going
across the tree. When he saw me cross on that tree, that was the end of our expedition.
He went back, put the camera on the shore, and followed me up the vine, onto the tree,
and across the river, yelling, "Tarzan!" There was always a bunch of kids around--you
never get away from the kids, at least at that point--and the kids all started doing that.
They had never done that before. For the rest of the day, all they did, including Ejawe,
was go up that tree. We got a late start anyway, so it was probably just as well. It got
dark, and they were still climbing, going across the river, and coming down the vine--I
think they are doing it still.

I was surprised. Several times I climbed vines, and they were absolutely
flabbergasted because they never did that. They would climb palm trees to get
coconuts, but it never occurred to them that they could have fun in the trees playing
Tarzan. And there they were, in just the right place to be playing Tarzan.

The next day we started out earlier. We went to a little village about two or three
miles inland. Mebele was the name of the village, and Mabutu was the language they
spoke. The people on the coast spoke Batanga, but here they spoke Mabutu. These
were different people; they were a different race of African. They were smaller, but they
were not pygmies; they were a long way from being pygmies.

I remember there was a guy in Mebele who apparently had been hit in the back of the
leg with a machete. They had bound a cloth around the wound, but it had become
gangrenous. His whole leg looked liked a club, and it was rotting. They asked me what
I could do for him. To me it was quite obvious that his leg would have to be cut off. And
the guy was carrying a damn canoe for us! He was one of the canoe bearers who took
the canoe from Mebele across a little river to the other side. They said that this is where
the pygmies gathered, that their home was on the other side of the river. There was a
pygmy in Mebele who had leprosy. His nose was gone, and he had big white patches all
over his legs and back. He was a real pygmy--he was about 4'2".

Ejawe, this pygmy, and I crossed the river in the dugout and took off for the deep
jungle. I had my camera, and we were headed for pygmy country with a pygmy in the
lead. It was really exciting. This is when I really felt that I had arrived. We went through
these jungle clearings, and it was just like the Tarzan books, a perfect description. We
went deeper and deeper into the jungle, and it was very hard to tell how far you are









going if you do not go in a straight line. But it was very easy walking through the big
forest, even though there were little rivers that we had to wade.

Suddenly I heard voices. We were at the pygmy village. It was a bunch of little
shacks made of green leaves, and they were only about three and a half to four feet
high. A lot of them were covered with chimpanzee skins. They apparently ate the
chimpanzees and used the skins for shelter. They were very hospitable, but the little
kids all cried. In fact, many of the younger people looked at me kind of strangely. These
were the real pygmies--you know, naked savages. They wore a loincloth, and that was
it. They were all small, but they were very well-built, beautiful people. It turned out that I
was the first white man to be in that village for twenty-six years. The last white men to
have been in there were German in 1926--this was 1952--and they made a bad
impression on the pygmies. They tried to collect taxes from the pygmies. The pygmies
disappeared into the jungle for twenty-six years, and I was the first white man to show up
since. But I had the right people with me. The first thing they did was take me out in the
jungle. They asked if I wanted to go hunting. I said yes and grabbed the camera.

M: What language do they speak? Did they speak French?

L: Let me see. I was speaking French to Ejawe, he was speaking Mabutu to this
pygmy, and the pygmy was translating that into the pygmy dialect, so we were going
through three languages. I had to start with French because Ejawe did not speak any
English at all, so I had a little trouble communicating. But it was obvious what they were
going to do. They had beautiful nets--where they got them I do not know. They were
about 100 feet long and about one-inch mesh made of quarter-inch cord. It looked like
some kind of a clear cord, almost like string. Each man carried a section about 100 feet
long.

We went out into the forest, and we had not gone more than a quarter of a mile when
they stopped. The men went out to cut little forked sticks, which they jammed into the
ground, making a little square. Then they laid a pole across each fork, and over each
pole they laid a series of transverse sticks. I thought this was really interesting, and I
was taking pictures of it. They were very quick, very expert at doing this. Then they
motioned for me to sit down in it--it was a chair!

Something else I thought was interesting was that there was a woman who came with
us carrying a coconut shell with a burning ember inside. Whenever we stopped, we
used it to build a fire. In that wet rain forest, these guys would find dry wood. They
would put three logs together with the tips touching, and then they would put this ember
at the tip. It would start a fire almost immediately. As the fire burned, they just pushed
the logs together so they were just about touching. This kept the fire going. I had never
seen this before. Of course, the logs would eventually burn up, and then there would be
nothing, but they would use the whole log. They must have known what logs to use,
because they burned even though we were in the wet season.









Anyway, I spent all day hunting with these pygmies, and it was fascinating. It was
just what you would see in the movies. They would set out these traps, and it was really
amazing how fast they were.

M: Did they throw the nets over an animal to capture it?

L: No. What they did was stretch the nets end-to-end for about a quarter mile by tying
them together. Then they would find a little branch and break it off, and hang the net on
the branch. They had the nets stretched out as far as I could see in either direction in
maybe five minutes or less. Then they all disappeared and left Ejawe and me standing
at the net--they did not let Ejawe go out in the jungle, either. Although he was a lot
smaller than I was and a lot more agile, we were both like elephants compared to those
little pygmies. And they went off into the distance and left us standing there.

Everything was quiet. Pretty soon I heard a "hoot, hoot, hoot" way off in the distance.
It was pygmies coming back, and they were scaring the game in front of them. We
never caught anything, and they apparently figured Ejawe and I were the cause. After a
couple of hours they said we are going to give it up; we are not going to get anything
today.

M: What were the nets for?

L: Well, the idea was that they would go out and encircle the game. They were mainly
after dik-dik, a small forest antelope. They would encircle it and drive it front of them,
and the animal would run into the net. Once it ran into the net, they could catch it and
put a spear in it. They all used spears, and they could get injured in this process. In
fact, the little guide who took us in, the one with leprosy, had a big hole in the back of his
leg where he said an antelope had bitten a piece out. And boy, I will tell you, it was an
ugly thing!

There were several people from Mebele, the village we had left, who had leprosy and
were living with the pygmies. I checked with Fred Hulse, the physical anthropologist,
when I got back to Arizona, and he said that was typical. The forest people are
considered to be healers by the neighboring normal-sized African tribes, so when they
got sick, as you do with leprosy, they went to live with the little people. So the poor little
people were stuck with these lepers, and they had leprosy, too.

M: Did any of them get well?

L: I doubt it.

M: That would have blown that theory.

L: Yes, it was not a very good theory. There was an interesting relationship between
the pygmies and the surrounding neighbors. They had a kind of a brother relationship;









the Mebele men had little brothers in the forest. It was very congenial but dictatorial on
the part of the people in Mebele. They got meat from the pygmies, and they gave the
pygmies machetes and probably the string that they made their nets out of. I am sure
those nets are also made from native fiber, because there was too much fiber in all
those things that had been brought in, and they did not have money enough to buy it.

I spent the day with them. When it got dark, we went back to Mebele, and I was very
nervous about that. There is something nerve-racking about being in the jungle when
the rain comes down and when it gets dark. We stayed at the village that night and went
back to Batanga the next day. In fact, I think it was two days I was there. But we never
caught anything when we were hunting with the pygmies, which was too bad.

But I did shoot pictures of the entire operation. What I did not know was that the film
had jammed in the camera after the first two feet, and even though it sounded like it was
running through, it was not on the sprocket, so I got only one frame out of all that. I have
the story, but I cannot prove it; I have no pictures. That is something that works me up
still. It is the most frustrating thing in my life. I was the first one to see them in
twenty-six years, and that was verified later when I got back to Arizona. It was probably
a bad thing, because some of these people very soon followed me, and I hear from
people now who are connected with the University of Florida Cameroon project that
pygmies are seen now in the town of Douala and some of the other towns, and that they
have been acculturated. They have lost their old livelihood, and they are at the bottom
of the economic ladder, which is pretty low.

I stayed in Batanga for a while longer. It was a beautiful place, with the Atlantic
Ocean, beautiful beaches, and these crystal-clear rivers running down into the ocean.
The kids always used to bring me different kinds of fruit. I remember things like ching
fop, breadfruit, ice cream beans, and all these exotic foods. I was very nervous about it.

M: Did they call them ice cream beans?

L: No, they did not call them ice cream beans. We called them that. I have forgotten
what their true name is. They are a legume with a long pod and a very sweet, gooey,
cotton candy interior.

I eventually left and went up the Congo River. I had a very interesting time in the
Congo. I was on a paddle wheel steamer, and every night when we would pull up to the
dock, I used to dive off the roof, which was about thirty-five high, and dive into the Congo
River. There was a guy named Bonaface who was the cabin boy of this steamer. He
came from what I guess was a cannibal tribe. His teeth were filed to points, and he was
a big, husky guy, and tough as nails. That was always what impressed me: these
people were so tough. They were hard physically, and they worked so hard. They
underwent an awful lot of physical discomfort that we just would not even consider
putting up with. Anyway, Bonaface got more than he bargained for. He saw me diving
off this roof of the cabin. I knew it was safe because we had a really deep draw on the









boat. The boat sank very low in the water, so the deck was only about a foot and a half
above the water. When I dived off the top, Bonaface wanted to do the same thing. And
I said, "I do not know if I can tell you how to do it." He said for me not to worry--" can do
it."

M: Did he speak French?

L: He spoke French. We are now in the Belgian Congo [present-day Zaire]. I could tell
it was an unstable place. They talked about "enlightened colonization" in those days,
and the Belgians were doing it. But there was terrible brutality. I saw some of the most
brutal treatment of blacks I have ever seen. I knew there was going to be trouble. The
Belgian Congo was slated to gain their independence in 1960, and indeed there was a
blood bath. But at that time, whites were treated well because they were so harsh with
the natives.

Anyway, Bonaface dived off the roof, and he did a back flop. He landed on his back,
and it sounded like a cannon going off when he hit the water. He came out, and he was
in agony. It would have killed the average man, I am sure. He said, "Yes, you are right,
monsieur. It is not easy," or something to that effect. I was just amazed that he
survived.

I took some good pictures of the Wagenia Tribe at Stanleyville on the Congo River.
They had large nets that they strung across the river, great big funnel-shaped nets, and
they would catch large catfish in these nets. That is one of the wonders of African
culture. How they ever got these huge stings out in the rapids, I do not know. It was just
impossible to measure. The frames were as big as telephone poles, and they were sunk
into this raging river. They must have been ten, fifteen, or twenty feet down, and they
just stayed there for years and years. These big hoop nets had long trailing cones that
made them look like an insect net. They would catch some big fish. They would just get
into the net and could not swim out. I saw some catfish that must have been about four
feet long and weighed about fifty pounds. I was beginning to get some good pictures.
At that time, I did not realize that my pygmy pictures did not come out, so I was feeling
very optimistic. Many, many things happened, but I cannot go into all the details.

M: I am fascinated.

L: Well, I went across the highlands. The river becomes the Lualaba River. This is part
of the trail that Stanley took when he went to find Livingston--that is why they call the
capital of the Congo Stanleyville [present-day Kinshasa]. I went up to Albert National
Park, which is in the highlands on the eastern side of the Congo, below the "mountains
of the moon," the Ruwenzori range. That is where the mountain gorillas live. I should
tell you I did see a gorilla when I was down in the jungle, but it was in a cage. It was one
of those little baby gorillas one of the natives had caught. It was a fantastic prize. I do
not know what they got for them, but it was in the hundreds of dollars, even in those
days.










Anyway, I was up on the highlands, and it was very cold at night. I hitched a ride. I
found out that in Africa you do not hitchhike--you just stand in the middle of the road to
stop the truck and get in. And if there is anyone sitting in the front seat, you kick them
out, and they go ride in the rear. In fact, these customs are rather colonial and brutal. If
you do not kick them out, they will get out anyway, so I really did not kick anyone out.
As soon as I would get in the truck cab, the people that were in there would get out and
ride in the back of the truck. Whites were treated royally. I felt guilty about it. I would go
100 miles or more.

We passed a herd of elephants, and I took some good shots of them. I took a picture
of a bull elephant waving his ears forward and staring right at me. Some guy said later,
"Man, you must have had a good telephoto lens." I told him I had not used a telephoto
lens for that shot. He said, "You came awfully close: that thing was about ready to
charge!" I did not realize the elephant was that mad, because you see them do that in
zoos. In the wild, a man cannot run away from an elephant. It is all you can do to get
away from them in a jeep.

We stopped at one bridge of the Rutshuru River, and I saw some natives throwing
rocks in the river. I thought maybe I had better set up my camera. Just as I got it set up,
a huge hippo came charging out, and I got a shot of it. I was above it on the bridge, but
it was a perfect shot. The hippo was down under water, and just after I got the camera
set up, it came out. That was what I wanted--wildlife shots and native shots.

I remember I was wearing Levi's jeans. This British guy--I was told later it was Lord
Louis Mountbatten [British naval leader and statesman, viceroy of India,
1900-1982]--asked, "Hey, Yank! Do you buy those things off the peg?" I asked what he
meant. He said, "I mean those pants." I said yes, and he said, "Boy, I would sure like to
get some." I said, "You can buy them in Tucson, Arizona." He said, "By all means." I
had a long, very exciting talk with this guy. He had been everywhere, but I did not know
who he was. After he left and went to his little round African cabin, the director of the
hotel--I was treated very well by the clientele and by the director of hotel--came over and
asked, "Do you realize you were talking to the first minister of the world?" I never did
find out for sure who he was, but I guess it was Mountbatten because other people told
me he was in the area.

I was looking for the gorilla. This was a great disappointment. I went to Lake Kivu
and got a little paddle boat. We went across Lake Kivu and ended up in Rwanda-Urundi
[present-day Rwanda], so I was out of the Congo. This is the area where Idi Amin held
sway for awile. This was before his time. [Amin was the ruthless military dictator of
Ethiopia from 1971 until he was ousted in 1979.] I was in Rwanda-Urundi, where really
picturesque natives lived. They had not been acculturated or colonialized. I was using a
Brownie camera, and some of the best pictures I got are on that Brownie film.

I was doing a rather dangerous thing, although I did not realize it at the time. I









wanted to get pictures especially of women, because they were topless. That makes
appealing pictures--even National Geographic worked hard to get those. I was doing
these shoots, and I was giving a franc or two to the models I was shooting. I was going
around from one village to another. They had these little enclosures, and I noticed that
in most of these enclosures there were only women, which made for very good
photography. At one point, this fierce-looking guy came in and said something in some
language. I came to understand that these were his wives--not just one, but more than
one--and that he was supposed to get the money, not them. So I gave him the coins,
but he spat on them and threw them away. Well, I knew that was a sign of great
hostility, because they did not have much money--a franc to them was a lot of money--so
I made myself scarce and got out of there. But I did get the pictures.

After that, I was trying to get into the mountains, which was very hard to do in that
country because nothing was organized. As I said, this was not colonial country. I
decided that I could not get there, and I could not speak with the people, so I could not
find out anything. You just do not walk into those mountains; they are very ominous. I
gave up on the gorillas and made arrangements to catch an airplane to Elisabethville
[Lubumbashi] in the southern Congo. Then I met a guy in a truck, a Frenchman, who
told me that he could show me gorillas within two days' time. I had already bought a
ticket on the airplane, and there would not be another one for two weeks. I had made a
great holler and fuss about getting this airplane, so I could not back out. To make a long
story short, I missed my chance with the gorillas. It was frustrating, but one of those
things.

I ended up going to Elisabethville, and I took the train on to South Africa. On the
way, I stopped at a little town called Broken Hill [now Kabwe] in northern Rhodesia.
When I got off the train, I went to the first bar I could find. They had good beer in
Rhodesia, very good beer. It was not cold, but it was very strong. I saw these guys
playing a gambling game on the table. It had a top with six sides; it was a six-sided
cylinder. They would spin the top, and written on the side facing up would be
instructions; there were six different statements on it. You would put your money down,
and it would say to pay two quid (or whatever) into the pot. These guys asked, "Hey,
Yank! Want to play?" I said sure. The first time I spun it, I had to put two quid in the
pot. The pot was pretty big--I guess one [British] pound, which at that time was worth
around four dollars. The next time I spun the cylinder, it said take the pot. Boy, that
money lasted me a long time. I had quite a bit of money.

M: They did not try to take it away from you?
L: No, they were good sports. In fact, they took me in. I do not know quite how the
introduction was made, but I met a guy named John Valentine, and he said, "You can
stay with me as long as you want."

M: What was he?

L: He was miner. These guys were all miners.










M: What nationality were they? Were they British?


L: They were actually Rhodesians. This was in northern Rhodesia. I said, "Look, I
really want to safari." He said, "No trouble. I have just the guy foryou: Campbell. He is
a miner. If you pay him fifteen dollars a day, he will take you out in the bush for as long
as you want to go. He has his own truck, his own blacks, and his own guns. And you
have a gun." So off we went. I paid this guy fifteen dollars a day, and a good part of
that came out of the pot I had won in the bar. We got way out from Broken Hill, and it
was beautiful. We went around at night with a light, and there was all kinds of game.
The first night we slept beside the road, and when I woke up in the morning, there were
lion tracks in the road. Campbell said, "That is a big lion." The tracks did not look that
big; these big cats make a small track, actually.
Well, I do not know what happened to me. I have always been a pretty good shot
with a gun, but I missed three shots in the course of the following day. Two were
leopards, which were then legal game. They were not even protected, unfortunately.
We shot leopards at night, in fact. I remember Campbell's saying, "Take my shotgun
and aim for the eyes. And do not miss, because if you wound the animal, it is going to
be on us." This was after dark. So there were the eyes out there. I took his shotgun,
which was a beautiful twelve gauge, aimed for the eyes, pulled the trigger, and the eyes
disappeared. Campbell said, "You missed! Get ready." Nothing happened. Then he
said, "The other one is over there." And it was still there; there was another leopard that
was not more than fifty or sixty feet away. I aimed and pulled the trigger, and the eyes
disappeared. Nothing happened--it was gone. I missed both times, and I missed a
couple more shots.

M: Do you suppose it was you? Maybe it was the gun.

L: I do not know. I missed with my own rifle, too. It was the most frustrating thing to
finally be here on the African veldt and miss. I also missed an antelope, as well as a big
bush pig. I missed that altogether; I did not even get a shot at that. But I cannot
complain. I got to safari, and I got it for thirty dollars. I was out for two days with this
guy at fifteen dollars a day.

We were in the poachers' camp outside of Broken Hill in northern Rhodesia. One of
the scary things about it was the immensity of the operation. These guys were riding
bicycles. They were going out and killing elephants and taking the tusks from the
elephants to sell them. Apparently, they were butchering the elephants and selling the
meat to the local natives. And the size of the operation! They had made a stockade
there out of huge logs, about twenty feet long. They buried them in the ground, making
a complete fence or wall. It was just amazing the amount of work that these Africans
were doing just to eke out a living. These guys were on the run. They were outlaws
who would be shot on sight.

M: And they were Africans themselves?










L: These were the black Africans. They were poaching elephants, and that was against
the law, even then, in 1952. Campbell said he would shoot them if he ever saw them.
And Campbell was no pushover, either. He had been captured in the Second World
War by the Italians and had spent time in a prison camp. Eventually he broke out of the
prison camp and made it from occupied Italy to north Africa. Then he went back to Italy
for some battle at the end of the Italian part of the World War II. He was an interesting
guy.

M: What nationality was he?

L: Actually, he was a Scotsman who came to live in Rhodesia. He was single, and he
was a miner. He spent all day in the mines, making fifteen dollars a day mining copper.
He was a tough guy and very knowledgeable, and a good hunter. Every animal we saw,
night or day, he knew what it was. I remember one thing that struck me about Campbell
himself was that his blacks were badly mistreated. He ordered them around. At night
when we slept out, we had sleeping bags, but his blacks had to sleep under his
overcoat. The temperature was in the forties, since we were in pretty high country. By
this time it was actually winter; it was in July south of the equator.

I was constantly reminded how durable and tough these natives were. When we got
out about fifteen miles from where we left our jeep, Campbell asked, "Where is the
Jeep? Where do you think it is?" I pointed in what I thought was the right direction.
Then he said, "I would say it is over here"--about ten degrees north of where I
pointed--"but we do not know, do we." I said, "No, that is only a guess." So we let the
black take us back. The guy turned almost fifty or sixty degrees off from where we had
pointed and struck out, and we hit that Jeep dead center in about two or three hours of
walking. It was a long walk, and that native knew exactly what the azimuth was. Both
Campbell and I were off; we would have missed it and be still walking, I guess.

You could not compete with these black people in certain aspects of their daily life.
Where you could compete, for example, was in things like climbing trees and running
down the beach. These kids really did not run so seriously as guys who have played
football, and I could always outrun the African natives. In fact, I could even run
backwards at the same speed they could run. That just struck me funny because they
are so tough and so durable, but yet there were certain aspects of American athletics
that they were not trained in. Gymnastics is another.

That was the best, the Africa trip. I continued to South Africa. Even in those days, I
was very upset by the apartheid and the attitude that goes with the apartheid. It is just
the inhuman treatment. I remember, for example, that I wanted to take some pictures of
Zulus. I thought they would be picturesque. My guide was an American woman,
Phoebe Stoker. She was a classmate of my mother's at Vassar. Herman Stoker was
one of the ministers of agriculture, and they were very nice to me. But I remember--this
came as kind of a shock to me--that Phoebe went to welfare and asked, "Do you have









any Zulus? My friend wantsto take a picture of them." I said, "No, you missed the point.
I want them out there prancing around and doing their ritual."

I took some beautiful pictures of mine dancers who came in from way out in the blue,
as they call it down there. They were raw natives, and they went down in the pits. On
Sunday they have dances that typified their particular tribe. They had all of the native
regalia, lion skins, and the works, and they had competitions. And they are good. I got
some really good shots of those mine dances. I left Africa in the fall of 1952, probably
September.

M: How long were you gone?

L: Oh, about three months, I guess.

M: Is that all?

L: Yes. See, I was on leave from the draft board. Things were tough. This was during
the Korean War. Nobody survived very long if they did not have some kind of
arrangement with the draft board. One of my plans for Africa was to stay there and
simply get lost. But I still had college, so I came back and graduated in 1953. Then I
was drafted into the army. I joined the paratroopers and went to Fort Campbell for two
years. I was discharged as a sergeant, E-5, after two years. There was not a lot to tell.

I trained in some tough jungles in Panama, which I used later on when I went to the
Amazon. The Panama trip, I would say, was most productive. We all became jungle
experts. In a way, it is interesting, because that was in 1954, and none of us wanted to
go to Korea because it was cold. But, we were all hoping that the war in Vietnam would
continue.

It was already known to us in the military that Vietnam was the next place we were
going to go to. I was just hoping that they would get this Vietnam conflict going so we
would not have to go to Korea. Anyway, I learned a lot of jungle lore in the Panama
jungle, and I thought that somehow I would be walking these trails again after I got out of
the army. I read a book called The Rivers Ran East [by Leonard Clark], but I will tell you
more about that later.

When I did get out of the army, I found myself in one of the old unemployment
situations. I went to Hawaii and worked in a gym. In fact, I managed the gym for Rex
Ravelle, who was a movie actor and muscle man. He was one of my heroes. He played
in The Song of Scheherazade, which I had seen when I was sixteen years old. That
inspired me to go into weightlifting. In those days, I was, in fact, the state champion of
Montana and second place in the state of Arizona. So it was good professionally for me
to take over the gym. I had a zoology degree, which made them happy because I was,
in a sense, qualified to talk physiology with the clientele. I ran the gym in Wahiawa,
which is in the center of the island of Oahu near Schofield Barracks. I used to give









lectures in high schools, too. Rex thought that was a great way to drum up business,
and it was. I was in good shape in those days. I remember having a contest with Rex
Ravelle, and I thought, "Boy, I have arrived. Here I am having a lifting contest with my
boyhood hero." This guy was fifty years old, but he could still outdo me. He was good.

I came back stateside and had various problems with a girlfriend that I knew when I
was in the army. It was kind of a stormy affair. I came back because of her, but I should
have stayed in Hawaii, I think.

Then I read this book, The Rivers Ran East, as I mentioned, which is about a guy
who went to the Amazon Basin. He had seven $100 bills pinned to the inside of his shirt
pocket, and that was the extent of his equipment. The story was so good. I figured that
if I got only one-half of what he saw and did on film, I could make lots of money. At that
time, television was buying films from amateur photographers. In fact, most of the good
stuff on adventure was bought from amateurs because the networks did not have
enough money in those days to equip expeditions like they do now. There really were
no professional television expeditions in those days.

The amateurs had a program called "I Search For Adventure," with Jack Douglas. I
went to New York and saw Jack Douglas's films. In fact--this is kind of funny--Lowell
Thomas, Jr. heard of my case through a friend of my father's. Lowell Thomas, Jr. got
Jack Douglas's films from Hollywood and showed them to me so I would know what kind
of material they were buying. I went out and bought two little 16mm movie cameras. I
had made this big pack with a fiber glass liner, and I put sixty-five rolls of film inside it,
each one being a fifty-foot roll or magazine. That thing weighed about 120 pounds by
the time I had it all loaded up. I went to Tucson, Arizona and prepared for the
expedition. I shopped around in downtown Tucson in army-navy stores and sporting
good stores stocking up on what I thought I needed for an Amazon expedition. I guess I
fairly well figured it out, because almost everything I bought in American sporting good
stores was eventually used in the Amazon. I had a fair idea because I had been through
the army's jungle training courses in Panama.

I hitchhiked going south from Tucson, Arizona out to southern Mexico. I met two
guys, Jerry Conners and Ray Lucas, and we talked about teaming up together. I asked
Jerry Conners, who was the leader of the other two, how the idea got into his head. He
wanted to go to the Amazon for the same reason I did: he wanted to make a movie. He
said he had read a book called The Rivers Ran East. I said, "By Leonard Clark, right?"
and he said yes. Then I said, "Okay. We know what we are doing," and from then on
we were partners. We both made our own films; in fact, we were competitors with each
other trying to outshoot the other. The other guy, Ray Lucas, was not a very vigorous
companion. He turned back when we got to Panama, so Jerry and I went on alone.

We took a freighter from Panama to Buenaventura on the west coast of Colombia.
Colombia was in a state of siege at that time. The banditos were trying to drive the
peasants out of the hills so they could usurp their land. In fact, the banditos were









fighting the army and winning. In one case, the army went up in the hills to get the
banditos. The army went in with a tank and a company of soldiers, and they came out of
the hills running in front of their tank. The banditos had captured it and were shooting at
them! They were very dangerous.

Our plan was to go up in the Andes, buy a dugout canoe, and paddle down the
Andes slope into the Amazon Basin east toward the Atlantic Ocean. We were just a few
miles from the west coat. The plan was to go across the Amazon Basin. It was just
getting dark, and we were standing on the far side of a bridge just outside of
Buenaventura trying to get a ride up into the Andes. There were two Indians standing on
the other side of the bridge; we were closer to town, and these other two guys were on
the other side of the bridge. A truck came along and gave us a ride because we
happened to be on the upstream side; [the other two were left]. We got in this truck and
went on up to a truck stop at a restaurant or bar on the slope of the Andes up there. By
now it was dark. Another truck pulled in behind us--with the bodies of these two guys
who had been on the other side of the bridge. One of them was beheaded, and the
other one was split lengthwise with a machete. This was the terrorism that the banditos
were inflicting on the peasants. In fact, in the Amazon Basin, I met a guy from the same
area who came home one night and found thirteen members of his family beheaded, so
he just took off.

M: Who did that? The banditos?

L: Banditos. That was all we ever heard was bandito, never any names. That was
going on all that time. Well, we went to Medellin and Pasto, Colombia, which are way up
high in the Andes. When I got up to Pasto, I thought I did not have enough film left that
was good to do this filming. When I was in Panama, I had my family ship some film to
Lima, Peru, because I thought I was going to Lima. I did not realize that I could get to
the Andes in Colombia and go down from where we were. So here I am in Pasto,
essentially out of film. I shot a lot more than I thought I would, and I had to go to Lima,
which was 1,300 miles south, to get my film. I told Jerry, "Hang on. Stay in this hotel in
Pasto." It was terrible city--an overcast, cloudy, cold, miserable place.

I got on a banana truck and hitchhiked down to Lima. That was a terrific trip. I went
down the Atacama Desert [on the coast of Peru]. This was in February. The sun was
shining, and I was on top of the banana truck eating bananas. The truck drivers were
really friendly, and we stopped at bars and drank beer all day long. They were wild; we
had a terrific time. We went all the way to Lima, Peru, about 1,300 miles. I really was
sorry to see those guys go. Then I picked up the film and hitchhiked back.

When I got back to Pasto, nobody had seen Jerry, nobody remembered him, and
nobody knew where he was. I had been gone for two weeks. I knew the only place he
would go was to the river, to the head waters of the Putumayo River, which is the river
we decided to paddle down. I took a bus with the film in my pack, machetes, and all the
gear for the jungle. That was a long ride--I will not go into it. I drank a little too much









laqua-diente and got myself in trouble on the way down. That was kind of stupid on my
part. Laqua-diente is what they called it--"mouthwash." They call it pisco in Peru.
Laqua-diente had anise in it, and when you drank it, you got hit with narcoticizing effect
from the anise just as same as alcohol. If you did not know that, it was quite a
dangerous drink. It really knocked you for a loop and made you act crazy.

Anyway, when we arrived in Puerto Asis, I was sound asleep on the bus. It was a
very hot day. I remember that Jerry was shaking me and saying, "Hey, wake up man!
We have a river to navigate." He had been sitting there at Puerto Asis for at least ten
days waiting for me to show up. By that afternoon we had bought a big, long dugout,
about twenty feet long. I think I paid eighteen dollars for it. Then we scared up all the
food we could find in the village in Puerto Asis, which was just a small village. We could
not find much; I think we got one box of sugar, lump sugar, five pounds of rice, a couple
bananas, and one can of sardines. Maybe I had brought the sardines with me. Anyway,
that was our supplies. We wanted to get started after we got the canoe and everything.
We started out late afternoon, and the sky opened up. We shipped 500 gallons of water
the first hour on the river. We decided at that point to take off our clothes and keep them
under the tarps. We would just put them on when we got to civilization, which did not
happen for about five days.

M: Did the canoe have a top on it?
L: No, we just had a pile of gear in the center. We had it on kind of a small platform, a
pallet, and we just put our ponchos over it. So everything we wanted to keep dry,
including film, was in this pile in the middle of the dugout. The dugout was heavy; it
weighed between 1,000 and 2,000 pounds. It was paper thin--the walls were only about
an inch thick--but it was straight as an arrow. It was old; it must have been fifty years
old. I would say it was twenty feet long and about three feet wide, so it was long and
narrow. But it was a beautiful dugout. It was made out of hard wood, and the craftsmen
had done a beautiful carving job on it.

Anyway, we headed south. The first thing we did was turn around to see if it was
really going to be a one-way trip, to see if we could paddle upstream against the current.
There was just no way we could go against the current, even in the slow areas. One of
the first exciting things happened late in the afternoon when we were looking for a place
to camp. We tied the canoe to a snag out on the edge of the river. I was just standing
there while Jerry went ashore looking for a place to hang our jungle hammocks--we did
have jungle hammocks--when a huge white object came up out of the water alongside
the canoe. It was about five or six feet long and about a foot and a half wide, and it
looked like it weighed about 1,000 pounds. It was a white porpoise of the Amazon.
There are actually four species of porpoise, and they go all the way up to the
headwaters of the river. But that was kind of eerie, because at first I did not know what it
was. This huge, white object suddenly loomed out of the water, and it was right there.

M: He did not turn you over?









L: Oh, no. That canoe was so stable we could not capsize; there was no way. It was
amazing. I thought it would be treacherous, but it was safe as can be. Well, that was
our start on the Amazon. We were going down the Putumayo River, and we spent five
days on that first stretch. The first town we came to was a town called Puerto
Leguizamo, which was the home of a lot of these mestizos that had been driven out by
the banditos. On the way, we had run out of food. We ran out of food the first day. I
think we had a little sugar left and some rice. I had all of these beautiful lures that I had
bought for fishing, and we had a fishing line over the side all the time, but for the first
three or four days we did not catch a thing. We did have some bananas. I think we
were able to pick up some bananas at one of the villages along the river. I put a banana
on the hook, and that was the secret-- from then on we caught catfish. They love
bananas, which was information that became very useful.

We proceeded on down the Putumayo River until we came to Puerto Leguisamo,
about five or six days after our start. From there we made plans to travel down to the
Yaguas River, which was close to 1,000 miles downstream by river, and to go upstream
on the Yaguas River, which was the home of the Yaguas Indians. So we went upstream
on the Yaguas.

At that time, it just so happened that the Yaguas's one tribe, or one clan, had lost
their chief. As we camped beside the river, the entire clan of Indians came down the
river and camped along side of us. So we had an ideal situation where we could watch
the Indians and do our filming, and we learned a lot.

M: Did they know you were there?

L: They knew we were there.

M: Did they know you were taking pictures?

L: In fact, we camped beside a small encampment of Yaguas Indians. This group, as
their custom dictates, had burned their village because of a death in the village, and they
came downstream looking for a good site for their next village. I got some shots of them
using blow guns to hunt wild pig. It was a very good interlude.

After we spent about ten days there, Jerry and I went on up the stream, paddling the
canoe, in search of the Bora Indians who were supposedly even more unacculturated
and in their natural state. Supposedly they were entirely naked. We were there in 1958,
and the last reports of the Bora, from the early 1950s or late 1940s, seemed to be of wild
so-called "Indios Bravos." Paul Fejos was the one who told me about them. Paul Fejos
worked with the Wenergran Foundation and was a famous social anthropologist.
Unfortunately, we did not find the Bora Indians.

As we traveled upstream on the Yaguas, we decided finally that we had come as far
as we could. We had nowhere to go but downstream again to get back on the









Putumayo and head on down the Amazon. One thing that I should point out is that we
were in unchartered, unknown territory. In fact, even the Putumayo turned out to have
other tributaries like the Yaguas. It was not very far from a place called Tarapaca, where
ten years after we came back from the Amazon the Colombians discovered an Indian
tribe of an unknown language group. In fact, that was their first and only contact with
that Indian tribe. As far as I know, they have not been seen again; that was in 1968. So
they were all around. There was a lot to be discovered, and we did our share. I think we
were quite lucky.

The most important thing we discovered in the course of this trip was not
geographical or anthropological, but a small fish called the canero. It belongs to genus
Candiru and is known as an internal predator. It had been a mythological fish in the
sense that it was supposed to swim into the body orifices--anus, vagina, mouth--and eat
from the inside out. It was supposedly able to do that; that was the myth. But there had
been no actual proof of this ever established.

Well, I noticed when we caught some of our large catfish, which insomecaseswere
six feet long, that there were these small catfish in the gut of the fish we had caught.
The Indians told us they are caneros. When we were first introduced to them, we did not
realize what they were until we caught a large catfish actually on the Amazon.

When we arrived on the Amazon, we caught a large catfish that had scales--not really
scales, but kind of an armor plate--and spikes along the lateral line. It was a
fierce-looking thing called the dorado. We had it hooked by its mouth, and we decided
to keep it in the water so it would remain alive and not rot before we were ready to eat it.
We had it by the side of the canoe. Suddenly I noticed a rippling around its mouth, and
it appeared that small fish were going into its mouth. At a closer look, we found they
were small fish swimming, one after the other, into the mouth that was held open by this
hook in the current. When we finally pulled it out of the water, it was entirely filled with
these tiny fish, probably about the size of your finger or a little smaller. When we let the
fish hang for a minute or two from the hook--it was dead by this time--the little fish
started popping out through holes in the abdomen: they had eaten it from the inside out!
We let this process continue and kept the cameras on it, filming the entire process of
these small caneros--small, eyeless catfish--eating from the inside out until they
completely consumed the carcass of the fish. This film turned out to be the first record
of internal predation by fish. The place where we filmed it was Ram6n Castillo on the
Peruvian Amazon, where it has been claimed that about fifteen people within recent
memory had been killed by the canero, most of them being women doing their laundry.

The difference between the canero and some of the other dangerous fish like piranha
is that it takes a school of the other types to kill you. They bite and tear at you, and they
are fierce, but it takes a lot of them to kill you. The thing about the canero is it only takes
one. Once one of them gets inside you, it can kill you.

I later started a paper with Dr. Carl Hubbs, who is the ichthyologist most acquainted









with Amazon fish and is the dean of American Ichthyology. Unfortunately, he passed
away before we finished the paper, and I never have gotten around to finishing it. But
we made stills from the motion pictures, and they would have been the first ecological
report that verified the canero as fact. We did name a new genus, and Jerry and I
worked on it for awhile. But I got into other things, and so did he. That was toward the
end of my Amazon trip.

After about seven months after leaving the U.S., I was in Leticia [Colombia] on the
Amazon [River]. I got a ride in a twin-engine aircraft based in Panama. The pilot gave
me a free ride back to Panama, and I left Jerry in the Amazon. Jerry planned to go to
Lima, Peru, as I had done earlier, so I left him there and went to back to Panama to go
home to Massachusetts. Shortly after that, I enrolled at the University of Arizona and
earned my master's degree in zoology with a minor in botany and ecology.

M: When did you go back? 1958?

L: I went back to the University of Arizona in 1958.

M: When did you finish?

L: I got my degree in the spring of 1961. I was out for about one semester. I also
worked at the Museum of Northern Arizona. I did my thesis on the Sunset Crater area of
northern Arizona, and also the Wapatki Ruins. It was an interesting archaeological site,
one of the Pueblo Indian sites. My expertise at the time was osteology, the identification
of mammals and various other groups by means of bones. I did the identification of
bones from an era of about 1,000 years ago that had been excavated in the 1930s and
1940s. It gave us an ecological picture of the country around Flagstaff as it had been
1060A.D. That was the time the Pueblo Indians moved out of that area, and they never
returned. That is still a mystery that we are still working on. That was where I got my
master's, in early 1961.

I began to think about getting back into movies again. The Amazon picture had been
a real success. It had gone on national television in 1960, as I had hoped, on the Jack
Douglas program "I Search for Adventure." My assumption was that if I could get film,
even a part of what Leonard Clark reported seeing, I would have a good film and could
make money, which turned out to be true. The film netted several thousand dollars, and
I actually spent $780 in the course of the trip.

After graduating, I decided I wanted to go to Australia. Australia at the time was
inviting immigrants from the United States and northern Europe, and I wanted very much
to see the outback and some of the Australian aborigines who remained in their natural
state. I thought that a film on Australia would be timely. Not only that, I had become
interested in the evolution of mammals, and animals in general, from my work on the
Sunset Crater area. There were unique races of rodents and other mammals that had
evolved in the area since the eruption of the volcano about 1,000 years earlier. There









were animals that developed a black race, and they had obviously not been there for
more than 1,000 years. This microevolution and the idea that there is such a thing as
evolutionary convergence would be, I thought, a good topic for a film. The most
pronounced case of evolutionary convergence in mammals is probably the marsupials in
Australia, which have evolved to forms almost identical to placental mammals in the rest
of the world.

I got a Bolex, a good camera, much better than the one I used in the Amazon. In
fact, I took two to the Amazon, but one happened to get lost in the process of filming. I
took enough film, a total of 10,000 feet, for the Australian venture. My plan was to make
two movies in Australia. One was to be a travelogue of what I saw. I was going to do
this with Harry Atwood, the film producer at the University of Arizona. The other movie
was going to be on evolutionary convergence between these mammals.

Now, let me cite a case. There is an animal called Antechinus, which is a marsupial
mouse that looks just like a house mouse, but they are not related. In fact, a house
mouse is much more closely related to a whale than it is to the marsupial mouse, even
though the two look identical from a distance. This is what you call evolutionary
convergence, when two animals with the same habitat tend to converge in form and
appearance, even down to the hair and eye color and body form, and yet are entirely
unrelated. There are other examples. There was a marsupial wolf that looked exactly
like a dog of some kind, but it is more like a kangaroo than a dog. These animals that
have evolved to similar body form and function give us a clue as to what is going on in
the evolution of life. How can it happen, with so many possibilities, that you get two
identical life forms on opposite sides of the world, merely because they seem to occupy
the same niche? It is still not understood.

There is still a bigger question, but it does not apply to just to mammals. It applies to
sharks and the reptiles that look like sharks, and it applies to trees and bushes. Trees
are a life form, and many trees look alike but are quite unrelated. Another good example
is a cactus and the euphorbia. The euphorbia is from Africa and looks like a cactus, but
it is not. Evolutionary convergence is probably most explicitly demonstrated, however,
by the marsupial and placental mammal, largely because they are the most complex of
all life forms.
I went to Australia by ship. It took three weeks, and I bunked with five other men
below the water line of the old ship. We were all immigrants going to Australia. A lot of
them, in fact, had their expenses paid by the Australian government. Their tickets were
partly paid for, and, in exchange, they were expected to stay and work in Australia and
to become citizens. I took an immigrant's visa, partly because I had an eye on staying in
Australia, but also because I could work. With the visa, I could do my filming in Australia
without further immigration papers.

When I got to Sydney, I bought a secondhand land rover that was in fairly good
condition, and I drove it clockwise around Australia, taking film as I went. I would say
the first two to three hundred miles were tar road. I went from Sydney to Melbourne to









Adelaide, and shortly beyond Adelaide the paved road stopped. There were about
1,500 miles of dirt road to get to the west coast. This was all part of the great Australian
Highway that goes all the way around the continent. There is a short stretch, maybe 400
miles on either side of Perth in southwestern Australia, that is paved. The rest of the
way around the continent, from the southwest corner all the way back to the northeast,
well over 2,000 miles, is unpaved road.

There are only a few houses along these stretches. I would say going from Adelaide
to Perth there were only scattered farms; maybe you would see two or three in a day.
Most of the time it was empty, beautiful country, but very Australian. Everything looked
delicate and very old. The eucalyptus trees looked to be relics from the past. They are
quite different from the robust trees we see here in the U.S. And eucalyptus and poplars
were the only two kinds of trees. That was a good trip. I remember going north of Perth
and stopping the first day out. That was when John Glenn circled the globe for the first
time [in Friendship 7 on Feb. 20, 1962]. Standing out there in the desert, I could look up
and see the orbiting spacecraft.

M: Did you know it was going to happen?

L: I knew it was going to happen.

M: Were there newspapers or radio out there?

L: Yes. This was Perth, a city of well over a million people. While I was in Perth, I went
to the university and was admitted as a Ph.D. candidate. One of the things I did when I
was there was pick up shells from Eighty Mile Beach, which is along the northwest coast
of Australia. For years, I had looked at the map of Eighty Mile Beach and thought how
nice it would be to be there. It was the most empty stretch of coastline that exists in any
civilized country. It is really 400 miles long, not eighty miles.

When I finally got to the beach, an interesting thing happened. I was driving the land
rover maybe a quarter of a mile away from the ocean. I could hear the ocean, but I
could not see it because of low-lying dunes between me and the ocean. I finally drove
as close as I thought I could get leaving the road, and I walked over the dunes. It was
very hot; it is always hot there. As I told you before, I really love to swim. I had not been
swimming in the ocean since I had left Sydney. I finally got on top of the dunes, looked
out at this broad beautiful beach, and ran down to the water. I was just about to dive in
when I saw a shark's fin almost totally out of the water, no more than fifty feet offshore,
right in front of where I was going to go in.

As it turned out, I was just north of Shark Bay. Sharks are numerous along that
coast, and they swim right up to shore. It also turned out that the water is so shallow
that the shark itself had to be a quarter of a mile out or it would be uncovered. But they
are dangerous even in that shallow water. Shark attacks were quite common in
Australia; there were quite a few while I was there.










Anyway, I did not go swimming. I picked up a basket coral--they were just lying
around like baskets--and all kinds of shells. The beach was just loaded with them. I got
about two bushels of shells, went back to the land rover, and proceeded to drive north. I
was filming all the time. When I got a little further north, I stopped at a mission and
picked up two aborigines, one of them fresh from the bush, and we went inland into the
desert. Our quest was the marsupial mole, a marsupial that looks and acts like a mole,
but, of course, is not. Moles are placental mammals like the insectivore we have here,
the thing that digs up the lawn.

M: Oh, yes.

L: This is one of the most striking cases of evolutionary convergence. Well, we did not
find the mole. But I had a very interesting time with these two aborigines because it was
the first time I had actually camped out with these people who knew the desert so well.
While we were in camp, little wisps of smoke came up on the horizon, and they grew and
grew. The aborigines told me that this was the Ilbajada tribe, a wild tribe of aborigines
that had not been civilized. They wore no clothing. The men occasionally went into the
cattle stations and took jobs temporarily, and then they would go back out. But the
women and children had never been in civilization. I thought this was fantastic and that I
should get some pictures of this.

A complication arose, however. It turned out that one of the aborigines I was with
was the son of a tribal chief, but not of the Ilbajada tribe. He said that he would certainly
be killed if the Ilbajada came upon him, because the tribes were enemies. This is what
they actually believed. These two guys could not agree. One of them was an Ilbajada,
and he wanted to go back to see his people; he had been gone for four years. But he
was outranked by the chiefs son, so we left. The fire was so big by that time that we
could still see it eighty miles away as we drove back toward the ocean.

M: What was the fire for?

L: Well, I was told it was a hunting fire. They set a fire to force the animals to run from
their cover. They wait for the animals and kill them with a boomerang. They would let
the fires burn wild, and they would just spread out and keep hunting. We could still see
the smoke when we were eighty miles away. I never got to see the people who set the
fire, but it was interesting to be that close to them.

I had been in Australia for over ten months. On the way to Darwin, where I was going
to meet Harry Atwood, I stopped on a cattle station and found one of the cowboys,
Warner Brosnan, who was managing the station. I wanted to put him in the film. He
was the ideal leading man for our Australian travelogue. I promised to make him famous
if he would act in this little sequence I wanted to do on the cattle stations. I continued to
Darwin, picked up Harry Atwood, and then went back down to Brosnan's.









He had a driveway that was over fifty miles long, so it was one of the most distant
outback stations in all of Australia. It looped off south of the Great Northern Highway of
Australia, and the house really was about fifty miles from the driveway. We finished the
sequence and stayed there for about two weeks. I did a sequence on a cattle drive
using camels, which is their beast of burden, and it came out quite well. Harry and I shot
about 10,000 feet of film. I had shot about half that film on the way around Australia the
preceding eight to ten months, and the last two months we were in Australia we finished
it up. And Harry took it back to the states with him.

I returned to the States a little later, back to Arizona, and started working at the
University of Arizona on a Ph.D. I had planned to return to Australia and take my Ph.D.
at the University of Western Australia. I found everything pointed to staying in the U.S.,
and I have not been back to Australia since, although it is still something I plan to do.

M: What year was it when you got back to Arizona?

L: The end of 1962. I left at the end of 1961. I worked on this film, and we had a very
good showing in New York in 1964. The Australian film was called The Great Unfenced,
a title that Warner Brosnan suggested. He said that if he ever wrote a book at his home
in Australia, he would call it The Great Unfenced. That movie won first place in the New
York Film Festival, and that was out of 880 professional entries. It was very profitable,
because McGraw-Hill bought rights and distributed it for nearly ten years.

I eventually got my Ph.D. at the University of Arizona--I was in and out of school until
1971. In the course of that period, I met Gloria Capco from the Philippines. In fact,
coming back from Australia, on September 10, 1962, I saw a Philippine girl saying
farewell to her family. We both got on the plane to go to the United States, but I got off
to stay in Manila for awhile. A few years later, in 1966, I went to Massachusetts to see
my folks. I had not been back since I left in 1961. It was Christmas, and my mother
said, "I want you to go up to Boston and pick up a foreign student. She is coming for
dinner." So I went up to Boston and met Gloria, picked her up, and brought her to dinner
in Wareham. I was very much attracted to her, and I saw her again the next week. It
turned out that she wasthe same girl I had seen in the airport four years before, in 1962.
We were married in 1968.

She got her Ph.D. from M.I.T. Her dissertation topic is single-cell protein, which was
of interest to the Philippines because it is a way to grow protein quickly and in great
quantities from bacteria. This also intrigued me, because I did my dissertation in
zoology. Mine was actually a mathematical theme for defining the shape of animals; it is
just one of the many possible ways to do it. The idea was to try to define a curve that
represented the best fit to a given shape. That would be a mathematical description in
the form of a polar-coordinate equation.

The reasoning behind all this was that the shape of an animal was something that
develops internally through growth, and growth is fairly well quantified. There are growth









equations that are quite useful. If you apply the right parameters in an equation for
growth, you can get the shape equation. In essence, as an animal grows, it graphs its
body shape into three-dimensional space overtime. It is logical to assume that it can be
quantified.

The question is whether there are any invariants to animal shape. Are there any
constraints that make animals work, that give us a body plan compatible with the growth
and function of the animal? That was the question I was asking. One reason to assume
that you would have some kind of constant is, for example, bats, birds, and various other
animals can fly. They are aerodynamically suitable for flight--gliding flight and full flight.
Also, some animals are streamlined; they have almost no wake. Now, these are not
random shapes. These are very highly specified. As another example, marine
engineers have not yet been able to match the streamlining of porpoises.

My premise was that the ability of a streamlined organism to fly or do anything
aerodynamic depends on shape. If that shape can be defined by an equation, then you
would have a set of equations (or a single equation) that define the shape from outside,
that is, from external criteria. And if you can define the same shape by a growth
equation from the inside of the animal, that is, from the start of its life as a single cell,
then you have defined the same surface, namely, the outside of the animal, by two
separate equations that add up to the identical solution of the surface of the animal.
This occurs in all animals throughout their life at all times. Therefore, what appears to
be a coincidence, namely, growth and steamlining satisfying a single set of equations,
cannot be a coincidence. There must be some invariant, equation, or expression that
has to remain invariant.

I did arrive at an equation that is a wave form, and I eventually wrote it up and
published it. It is interesting to note that the theory had been approached by other
people recently. In fact, I got a letter just today from a professor at the University of
Arizona, and he included a publication from South Africa written by the head of the
department of orthopedic surgery at the University of Natal in Durban, South Africa, that
is quite like my theory on the invariance of animal shape.

M: Who was the professor?

L: His name is Lendell Cockrum.

M: Who was the man in Africa?

L: Theodore Sarkin. I pursued this idea for a long time. What it really boils down to is
that if you have certain shapes that are predetermined by their molecular structure, and
if the organism has to grow in a continuous sequence of sizes, then you can explain
evolutionary convergence. There is a definite limit to the amount of morphological
variation. In other words, there is a body plan that cannot be ignored or cannot be
deviated from. Setting the evolutionary chain in motion in a certain direction could









logically result in nearly identical outcomes, such as the marsupial mouse and the house
mouse, the marsupial wolf and the placental wolf.

This is still something to be investigated. It is way beyond our current biological
knowledge. But I think we are getting to the point with computers and with advanced
knowledge of molecular biology that we will understand what life is trying to do, why
these molecules have come together, what living systems must do in order to survive
and evolve, which to me is the basic quest of biology: what is life about. To understand
life, we have to understand it in terms of mathematics and physics.

Anyway, Gloria and I left Tucson in late 1971. We went to Massachusetts for awhile,
and while I was back in Wareham, I got a job as the research director with the
Environmental Devices Corporation. This was quite different from anything I had
prepared for, although it matched my background in ecology and marine biology. This
project grew scallops by aquaculture and fed scallops on algae. We figured there was a
lot of money to be made because scallops grow fast--you can grow a crop in nine
months--and they eat algae. The problem was that nobody, with the exception of a
fellow by the name of Bill Duggin, had been able to grow them from egg to adult. We
hired Bill Duggin to grow scallops, and I grew algae. Algae, of course, is single-cell
protein, pretty much like what my wife had produced. Her bacteria were for human
consumption; my algae were for mollusc consumption, which is one step removed from
human.

The important thing about algae is they convert sunlight and inorganic chemicals to
carbohydrate, protein, and protoplasm. Algae can grow faster than most plants, being
single-celled, non-vascular plants, as opposed to other plants that are vascular in which
the cells are linked together with a circulatory system--phloem, xylem, and so forth.
Algae are of interest because they can convert solar energy to chemical energy, as other
plants do, but at a more rapid rate. The idea was that we could feed scallops very
cheaply on algae and yield a high-priced product, because scallops were selling for
about three dollars a pound.

We had some success; we hatched over 200 million larvae. Everything was going
great. They were developing as they should. But in the fourth stage, development went
awry. The embryos in all cases started to twist and die, and we never succeeded in
growing one out of a single cell. But the algae was going on strong, so I continued to
work on that until the beginning of 1975.

At that time, I could see that if I wanted to work on algae, a private company in
Massachusetts was not the place to be doing it, and the company agreed. So Gloria,
Teddy (our one-year-old), and I picked up our belongings and moved to Florida. I went
on a search for a place where I could do research on algae and continue this project. At
the University of Florida, there was a position open, not necessarily for an algae
research, but for someone who could handle the water pollution problems. Florida, and
elsewhere in the South, has to deal with livestock producers, and they needed someone









who could help clean up the environment by working on the pollution caused by
livestock.

Algae is one solution, partly because it grows so quickly. The productivity that we get
now in algae is about thirty grams per square meter per day, during the summer. That
amounts to about 100 tons per hectare per year, dry weight, which is at least ten times
the amount of protein you can get from any other crop. Algae is roughly 50 percent
protein, like soybean. That figure amounts to about forty tons per acre per year, of
which half, twenty tons, is protein. With soybeans, you would be lucky to get one ton of
protein per year.

With this in mind, I pursued the idea of using waste water discharged from barns in
particular. Barns have no sewage treatment plants, and the pollution from animal
manure is equal to or greater than that caused by humans. The animal population
actually outweighs the human population, at least in the United States, and the amount
of waste produced is roughly ten times what the human population produces. So there
is a giant problem that goes unmentioned for the most part, and certainly unsolved.

In the past ten years, I have been working with algae, particularly on the conversion
of dissolved-nutrients water to high-protein biomass that can be used in agriculture, fish,
and even scallops. Algae is the basis of the food chain in the ocean and in fresh water
lakes and ponds because it is what converts nutrients and sunlight into the first stage of
the lower-trophic level of the ecosystem.

What I see in the future is that there is going to be a protein crisis on this planet,
along with everything else. One thing I learned in the Amazon was that the jungle is not
too bountiful, and what you need is protein--fish, monkeys, or whatever. There is not
that much available, and with the human population expanding the way it is, I think
edible protein for humans and animals will be the final crisis. The energy crisis will help
bring it on, but we are right now subsidizing our crop production with huge amounts of
fuel--for plows, tractors, and, during harvest, combines. We also use a huge amount of
fertilizer, mainly a chemical product of the Habec process, for example, which uses a
large amount of fuel. Eventually, we are going to have a shortage of not only fuel, but of
protein for consumption.

This shortage is going to be hastened since humans measure our standard of living
by whether or not we eat meat and how much meat we actually eat. Wherever you go in
the world, people really do not get as much meat as they would like to. By taking food
that could be eaten by man and feeding it to animals, you lose about 90 percent of the
food value. Ten percent gets converted into meat, and we prefer to eat that, particularly
in the United States. But it is true all over Europe, and it is true especially in Asia. In
Africa, it is no longer possible for people who are already starving. But I can see the
production of algae as a means of meeting the protein crisis with an entirely new source
of protein. It is hardly going to be enough, of course, to feed the world, but it will make
possible much more protein production than we have now. That is one of the reasons









why I pursued this. Algae does hold theoretical possibilities, and we have shown that
algae works.

M: Where else in the world have you visited?

L: I have been to southeast Asia.

M: Where in southeast Asia?

L: Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines, and Taiwan. I have also been to South
America (Peru), Central America, and Israel. In Israel, they are doing a lot of work. In
fact, we are working right now on a cooperative grant with Israel to continue research in
this area.

One of the things I think is interesting is that my wife's uncle in the Philippines, who
was a former minister of fisheries for the entire nation, has gone into aquaculture. He
produces milk fish, which is an algae-eating fish. They are grown in pens in shallow
lakes in Asia. He is able to harvest from his roughly 100 acres of fish ponds something
like 200 tons a year. And he gets $1,000 ton, so he is making roughly $200,000 a year
on fish and algae. I, in fact, have just acquired some huge tilapia fish that grow to about
two feet long, and they are algae feeders.

What we are trying to do is develop food chains based on algae. The algae, of
course, is also used to clean the waste water. As the algae grows in polluted water, it
cleans the water so it can be reused, and, at the same time, it converts the dissolved
nutrients to protein. That concept is my current occupation, and I am hoping that things
will continue to develop as they have.

I am very satisfied with my position at the agricultural-engineering department at the
University of Florida. I hope that this overall plan can be implemented in places like the
Philippines. Gloria and I intend to go back to the Philippines one of these days. In fact, I
have been over there twice, most recently with the National Academy of Sciences, trying
to advance this project.
There is one other thing we have done that I think is of interest. We have been able
to take cyanobacteria, which are convergent with algae, and transfer genes from the
bacterium Escherichia coli into the cyanobacteria. By transferring genes from one
organism to another, we can produce gene products, that is, specialized proteins. One
of my ideas had been to take genes, for example, the human growth hormone, and put
this into bacteria or algae. Then the gene can be cloned and expanded into a large
population, and that will translate into proteins. The human growth hormone can then be
extracted and used as a drug.

The reason I bring up human growth hormone is because Genentech has succeeded
in isolating the gene for human growth hormone and putting it in a bacterium, and they
are mass producing this very valuable substance, which used to cost about $10,000 a









gram. They are producing it in bacterial cultures. Bacterial cultures are nice because
they are effective. My point is that if you put the same gene in an alga, then you can
grow it out in relatively low-cost surroundings using solar energy, which will yield a huge
crop of whatever valuable substance was inserted in the organism. This can be done for
a very small capital investment. This is what is needed in the Third World. It is relatively
high technology, but one that can be done cheaply. It is based largely on our
knowledge--we know about genes, and we know how to manipulate them. Once the
knowledge is implemented, it becomes a rather simple and low-capital type operation. I
think this has big possibilities. That is just one of many things I see coming out of the
algal research. So with that I will close.

M: Thankyou very much, Dr. Lincoln. I am glad you did all this. You seem to be happy
about it once you got started. Thank you very much.




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