Title: Charles Savage
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Title: Charles Savage
Series Title: Charles Savage
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UF 108A

Sub: Charles Savage

Int: St~ve Kerber

May 24, 1980


Page -1-

S: Today is Saturday May 24, 1980. My name is Steve Kerber and I am going

to be conducting an oral history interview with Mr. Charles Savage, S-a-v-a-g-e,

of Ocala, Florida for the University of Florida's Oral History Project.

Mr. Savage is a graduate of the University of Florida, a former member

of the Florida Legislature and an attorney in Ocala, Florida. The interview

will take place at 10:00 A.M. in Mr. Savage's office at 121 N.W. 3rd

Street in Ocala. This is a good little machine it'll pick up your voice

just fine I'm sure. 048? I usually begin..... Excuse me Mr. Savage.

(clears his voice) I usually begin by asking people to tell me their full

name please.

C: My name is Charles A. Savage. I'm an attorneyy at/aw in Ocala, Floria.

S: Where and when were you born Mr. Savage?

C: October 3, 1898 in Ocala, Florida.

S: What were your parent's names please?

C: My father was Charles A. Savage. a~t I'm.... was Junior, I've dropped that

now. My mother's name prior to marriage?

S: Mm hm.

C: Was Elizabeth Victoria Cooner, C-double o-n-e-r.

S: Were your parents native Floridians?

UF 108A

C: They were native Floridians, came here when they were children. Their

parents moved here from South Carolina.

S: I take it then, that you grew up in Ocala?

C: Yes, I have lived in Ocala all my life except for a few,years.
S: Mm hm. You attended high school here.

C: I attended high school in Ocala, graduated in 1917.

S: Mm hm. What was your father's profession?

C: My father )uta-i-??uv, ell, in those days, people usually had several

professions. We had a big farm and he always owned and operated a

saw mill.

S: I see. Just outside of town here?

C: It was at CoQc \ -\c Florida which is about twelve miles south of Ocala.

S: Mm hm. Now when did you graduate from high school?

C: -N1atr za--eeventeen.

S: In the Spring, I assume?

C: I can't tell yd what time of year it was.

S: What made you decided to go to the University of Florida for college?

C: Well, I always intended to be a lawyer. I think my grandmother convinced

me that I should be a lawyer when I was about five or seven years old.

S: Mm hm.

C: And 3t* actually I started to go to Stetson University) s,( and then

decided to go to Gainesville, University of Florida. -gae to carry

out my 5a0 my ambition to be a lawyer.

S: Because of the proximity, I assume you had been to the campus before you


UF 108A

S: went there to start school?

C: Yes I had but only one time.

S: Uh huh. Was that just on a personal visit-.or were.you taking part in

some program?

C: I was not taking part in any program. There was some boys from Ocala that

were attending the University of Florida and actually a group of us went

up there and visited them.

S: So then would it have been also in 1917 that you began college?

C: No. No 4kl when I got out of high school I worked in the lost officee in


S: Mm hm.

C: I was a mail carrier for a year and thenay", entered the University

of Florida

S: Mm hm. So then you began in 1918?

C: UR-,er yes, '~ra m.

S: Now you mentioned that you felt when you began that you wanted to eventually

become an attorney so when you went to Gainesville was there the equivalent

of a pre-law course offered at that time?

C: Yes, at that time you had your preference choice of either directly

entering the University of Florida law school the only requirement

being a high school diploma.

S: Mm hm.

C: 4 Or you could take 44 an academic course and then study law and hb, you

could then obtain a law degree gdg a o~olo o \o(SprU u tjtul rC .

S: Mm hm.

UF 108A

C: Just went directly through the law school you got an E'B #egree which

I obtained.

S: So, when you first got up to the campus, where did you go to make arrangements

for your A4 housing and your schedule?

C: Well you went to what they call the administration building and there
Wo ie
of course they had a person who was in charge U4mE gh decide on your

qualifications and try to get you a place to stay. 'O: I s-a was

first in Al Thomas Hall at the University of Florida on the campus. Later

I stayed in Buckman Hall and then later in my senior year I stayed out

on what they call "experimental farm" in the those days. And I lived

out there so that I could have more quiet and be able to study.

S: I see. Now, where did you take your meals as a student? Did you eat

on campus?

C: e'tr.s: I ate on campus in what we called at that time "the mess hall".

And I also acted as a waiter because I had to work my way through college.

My parents did not have much money and I entirely paid my own expenses

through college.

S: I see.

C: j working and -,f. little money that I had saved from working in the

/ost office .

S: Was the job that you had in the mess hall the job that you had all the

way through school or did you have other employment at the university?

C: Pij I had the job in the mess hall all the way through school plus then

I worked out on what they call "experiment station" on experimental farm

4e. south of the university on what is now part of the campus and is


UF 108A

C: out near where the medical facilities are.

S: What sort of a building did you live in while you were working down

there on the south end of the campus? Was it an old farm house or what?

C: No, no. I lived in the home that the manager of the farm had. It

was a nice home.

S: I see. What was his name?

C: I do no'remember his name.

S: Let me back up a little bit now. Did you .. when you first arrived, receive

any counseling from a faculty member as to which courses that you needed to

persue or were you able to merely pick out your courses from the catalogue?

C: I had no counseling. I announced what I wanted to do. But let me go

back just a little and correct something that might be a little incorrect.

When I went to the University of Florida I intended to be a lawyer and

to study law. But when I got there.e ie I found e-rIv..that they had
a program known as the SAVC. You join the military services of the

United States. You were given your choice of studying in any college

and entering any college they had but they advised you very strongly

it would be best for you to enter the college of engineering. So, I

joined the Army when I first got to the University of Florida. I

entered the engineering college and I took one semester there.

S: Mm hm.

C: By that time the war was over, we were allowed to get out of the military

service, and then after the one semester I entered the University of

Florida Law school And I finished law in two and a half years.

UF 108A

S: I see. Then, I take it from what you say, that everyone who was a student

at the university at that time belonged to the SATC as well as being

a student?

C: No. That's not true.

S: That's not accurate? That's not accurate.

C: No, no. 4, I would say that about two-thirds though/of the students

belonged to the SATC.

S: -.,4 let's talk about that for a minute if we could. Now, ttf, did member-

ship in the SATC involve much more in the way of military training other

than drilling on campus and 4*- becoming acquainted with the use of fire

arms or did this sort of work take you away from the campus at that time?

C: No, it was practically the same as the ROTC is today.

S: Mm hm.

C: Except we did engage one time in a mock battle.

S: Uh huh.

C: And I don't believe they do that anymore. ~jik< S

S: Where was that held, on the campus?

C: That was held on the campus 4 on what we called at that time ICrackk+e 4--P'C

Creek (chuckle) GCEIke Creek was now where the football field is. UnrirKqv ov

S: Mm hm.

C: And we used, actually used, our rifles,.z-n, and they were loaded with

very small loads of powder and with wax bullets so that we actually could

get hit by those bullets and some of us did.

S: Mm hm.

C: 4 i;-;adi,.. had somebody had been hit in the eye or someplace like that


UF 108A

C: I'm afraid he would've lost their eyesight. Luckily we got by with

a few bruises. I don't think they ever do that anymore anywayif they

do I don't know it. But that's what happened.

S: I see. Now, did you drill everyday as part of your SATC activities?

Do you recall?

C: Yes we did. We drilled everyday in what we called close-order drill.

S: Mm hm.

C: Mm hm.

S: Basically marching-aX formation then?

C: Right.

S: Uh huh. Did they give you very sophisticated training in the use of fire

arms in that program?

C: No, they did not. They taught you about a rifle and how to take it apart

and they taught you how to use a bayonet and how to stick it in people

and pull it out. And that's about all I remember we had.

S: Mm hm.

C: We were supposed to take one semester at the University of Florida, prefer-

ably in engineering, and then we were going to be sent to Plattsburg,

New YorKfor three months and we would come out of Plattsburg as second

lieutenants in,a, the army igx and we would Oh - in infantry at

the University of Florida.

S: Mm hm, I see.

C: Our instructors were also young men about just a few years older than

we were.

S: Mm hm.

C: All of them were from Yale or Harvard and had just graduated from Yale or

UF 108A

C: Harvard the previous year. Adi h'eji-. They were second lieutenants

at that and some of em were first lieutenants and then we had one

captain, one major, and one colonel who were not students but who

were from the regular army. And that was the set-up of the SATC at

the University of Florida.

S: Did you receive compensation then for your service?

C: Yes, you actually receive compensation. As I remember it was $30.00

a month or something like that.

S: Hmm. Mm hm. And did you receive your uniform free then?

C: Yes,.we received our uniforms free and -,..un.'. .g.. r o, that's all.

I can't remember whether our meals were free or not. I think they were.

Yeah, they were. We were on the same status, Ieo ell they called us

cadets but we were on the same status you might say as a private in

a regular army.

S: Did 0, the cadets in this unit wear their uniforms at all times since

this was during war-time?

C: Yes we did.

S: Uh huh.

C: Even more than they do in the military service today.

S: Were you subjected to military discipline in the classroom in any sense?

C: (-SCrrs No, not in the classrooms. The classrooms were operated the same

as they would've been had we not been in the military.

S: I see. Do you recall if this participation in the SATC involved 1'4

UF 108A

S: weekend drilling as well as or was it only during the week?

C: It only during the week.

S: I see. -W'~'Sv -,. We've kinda gotten away from what I had planned to

ask you but I'd like to, if I can, follow up on this a little bit more.

C: %- anything. Yeah.

S: EJ were you given f:t.., training which involved the use of Id4 films

or military manuals of tactics or anything like this in-che classroom


C: No we were not. If we were, it was very very brief. I think we had just

two or three times that we were given some instruction that way.

S: Would it be fair to say this was sort of preparatory training towards

getting you into this officer candidate school up in New York?

C: Yes that was exactly what it was. Uh huh.

S: e. STl. was there any ui, alvary unit or training on the campus at

that time?

C: No calvary units. We did though have a unit for the navy.

S: Mm hm.

C: And the law college happened to be considered the...-r-he navy ctS

so called where the navy A people were trained.

S: Was there a fairly - rapid and smooth transition back to, &, a

civilian atmosphere on campus during your second semester then Aafter

the end of the war?

C: Very quick and smooth. In other words, when the armistice was signed

we received the word of it about daylight in the morning.

S: Mm hm.

UF 108A

C: And my first recollection was a terrible noise going on and I didn't

know what had happened. Then I got up and rushed downstairs like every-

body else did. I was on the second floor in the building. And every-

body was hollering "the war is over, the war is over" and aaset 0o-Cr%5s'C-.

'5 So\$-ee We were then that same day ax told about it

officially, line up and told about it. And then in about a day or two

we were given the right and privPlge to either volunteer for the regular

army, apply for it, 4f) apply for a commission in the reserve by going

ahead and finishing the course at Plattsburg, or we were given our

priv lIge of getting out of the military service. As far as I know,

I think there were only about three students that made any other selection

than getting out of the service. So we all got out and we got out in

a hurry.

S: I see.

C: And then we were free to do what we wanted to. The military was gone

except for the ROTC.

S: Mm hm.

C: Uf!',; and then we).-t I remained in college and the other students

as far as I know practically all remained in college.

S: Now did you......

C: Am I taking too long with these answers?

S: No sir, not at all.

C: I'm trying to shorten it up as much as I can.

S: T.. I'm very happy to get anything that e-i-tte you want to mention

that you think is of significance. I'm not looking for any particular

given answer.


UF 108A

C: Mm hm.

S: Basically fishing. ea0. .-i, what was I going to say? 4.c-r.-i. at

that point did you then utf sit down and decide what might be the quickest

way to pursue you-r..iyvjur chosen goal of a law degree?

C: I don't remember quite the procedure that I went through but I know that

I immediately transferred to the law college.

S: Mm hm.

C: And of course continued there until I got my degree.

S: Was that a very dy complicated procedure at that time or did you merely

declare your intentions to the school of law?

C: I think we just declared our intentions and went to class as I recall,f.

(chuckle) Very simple anyway.

S: Were your law classes at that time all held in the law building, Bryan


C: At that time the law classes were held in the law college. The law college

at that time dia was locatedcse- at the u'fr~,a extreme,,*. northeast

end of the campus. And that building today/I really don't know what

it's used for. Do you know where I mean?

S: Yes, yes. It's still there and it's now part of the 4K business ti, college

together with Matherly Hall.

C: I knew it was still there and I knew it was being used for some purpose

but I didn't know what.

S: Yes it is. Now was the :ere-.-eB law library located in that building?

Was there a law library?

C: Oh yes, there was a law library and it was located in that building.

UF 108A

S: Mm hm.

C: All law classes were held there. Everything in connection with the

law school was located there.

S: Where was the main library located in those years?

C: -p .91 I'll have to admit I don't know. I've forgotten. That's

been a long time ago.

S: Yes it has. Could you tell me a little bit about the nature of the

program that you yourself pursued? In other words, the length of it and

the requirements of it?

C: Law college?

S: In your own program.

C: Yes. I think that I was naturally .ai'dt equipped to be a lawyer. I

had one terrible time in the college of engineering and 4hI I passed in

everything but I had a very very difficult time doing so. Luckily,

I remember what I learn there and it helped me my law ever since. But

when I got into law school I thought that f*t was the easiest thing

that I'd seen in my life. In the first place, our hours in class

we limited to the morning hours. No afternoon classes.

S: Mm hm.

C: Many of iq4V- the classes there were so simple to me that I asked /

having missed one semester, for the priv lpge of taking exams in those

subjects and not going to class which I was granted the right to do

in which I took exams and therefore, I finished law in two and a half

year. I lost no time because of SATC. (V we had *1%, three professors.


C: *hivst De n Trler, t-r-u-s-1-e-r, ean of the aw school, college. We

hadDr. Crandall we called him and Professor Thompson and Professor

Crandall. I mean Coc-e I Those were our professors.

S: Mm hm.

C: I can't remember how many students we had because they were very very
limited. But we might say that in my graduation class we had thirteen

so you'll know about our ,g number. Everyone knew everybody else.

They knew them4,/.e where they lived, they knew their names, and they

usually knew their background. And our professors instead of being

just professors, were our friends and ig.-. ..-.'-r,: t fuis.".

/hey were almost parents to us. They not only taught us law but

they taught us a lot of other things too. Now iaF,'*; we thought, or

I thought that it was a wonderful course in law but now since then)

and having been a lawyer for over fifty years and having seen other

lawyers that were graduated later, I realize that there has been a

tremendous improvement in the law college) and law colleges of

this country. The biggest improvement though is not in what they teach

you about the law but it is what they teach you about trial practice

and above that how to find the law. When I got out of law school I knew

a little bit but I didn't know how to find the law. We now have students

in here that 0'~ still in college working for our law firm that we use

as law clerks and they can find the law almost as well as we older lawyers,

maybe sometimes better. cu )

S: Mm hm.


UF 108A

UF 108A

C: So that's the improvement and the change in law classes. And I presume

too that law school is much more complicated se ..-btb than it was in

my day because as we know laws change now everyday and it's getting so -suc-

Ot most of your law books now are loose leaf books where you take the

old books out and put the new ones in.
S: Could you tell me a little big about the personalities or the characters

of some of these gentlemen that you mentioned such as Dean Trusler?

C: Yes I can tell you some of the unusual things about em that we students
/ A
of course noticed and perhaps they didn't know themselves. Dean Trusler

while he was a pean he was also a teacher. He taught just as many classes

as the others did. I don't know whether that's true today or not but

I don't think it is, is it?

S: I don't think so.

C: JSis Dean Trusler had a peculiar habit, he was a wonderful teacher,

but he had a peculiar habit when he'd get very interested in a subject and

he'd always close his eyes and he'd keep em closed til\ sometimes for

as long as fifteen to twenty minutes while he lectured to the class. And

we always that was real strange for a blind man BS 4ect 0 StOOS.

S: Mm hm.

C: fij I think the best teacher we had was Crandall. iy Crandall taught

what was a very complicated,fy-..tir subject then of common law pleading

which is now abolished in Floridat~Ad still though is used in England

by the way.

S: Mm hm.

C: And it was how you formed issues in a case by the pleading. This day in



UF 108A

C: time that's practically abolished for another system whereby you discover

your factual situations and issues develop by discoverft~ There are
different systems, both have their advantages and both have their disadvantages

and I am not able to say myself which one is the best but if I would

make an educated guess I would say the present system is the best because

it enables each side to discover the facts and the proff and the witnesses

that the other side has and leads to the settlement of many many cases.

Today two-thirds or three-fourths the cases are settled without trial

for that reason. Now S- .-"$, Cockrell had been a justice of the

Florida Supreme Court and he had the unique and embarrassing grs record

of having been the only justicee of the Florida Supreme Court I believe,

until the present day that ( was ever defeated for re-election. They

were elected in those days.
thorough knowledge of law but he was not a very good teacher and ~4 he

was not close to the students like the others were.

S: Mm hm.

C: Crandall would not only teach you but he would advise you as to what to

do and (M when you got out of law school and Crandall like none of the

other professors we had, actually practiced law at the time he taught in

the University of Florida in none other than the state of Illinois.

S: Really?

C: And that was in the summer he would go back to Illinois and practice up

there and then he would teach down in Florida.

S: Oh I see. Uh huh.


UF 108A

C: And so he was always referring to Illinois law.

S: Hmmm.

C: And in those days4j- r, I must admit and I don't know how much he had
to do with it, but Illinois law and Florida law was most similar than

any other state that \ (A' 4U. That's where our law I think

originally y) we obtained it from Illinois.

S: I guess that was fortunate for you students wasn't it?

C: It was fortunate for us too. We got the first-hand teaching of that

law. iJf also in those days people didn't have the money they have in

this day and time and there were no such things as automobiles used

by either the professors or the students. The first ones that we used

at the University of Florida were two that were there in my senior

year and believe it or not, both of them were used by students, not


S: Really?

C: And some of the professors used to walk to the college from where they

lived but Dean vi Trusler always rode a bicycle and he always had a

grryael a guard or whatever they called it in those days that he put

around his leg that was on the side where he pedalled the bicycle.

S: Mm hm.

C: And he used to always come in every morning and take that off his leg

and we kids used to think that was strange that he wore that because

nobody else that rode bicycles in those days bothered to wear those


S: Uh huh.


UF 108A -17-

C: That's another thing.

S: Okay, let me ask you this now. Was the 44, achievement of either of the law

degrees from the University of Florida a passport to membership in the bar--

in other words, was there a separate examination for the bar other than those

two separate degrees?

C: At the time that/btg that I attended the University of Florida, it was the only

state college of law in Florida. Stetson, of course, had a law college. So the

University of Florida graduates were permitted to practice law without a bar

examination. The Stetson graduates had to take the bar examination. Those were

the only two colleges in Florida then that taught law. Stetson later got this

same privilege, and then later, several universities in Florida got this privilege.

And it got so gg, -grgranted that that led to a change in the statute which

required all graduates of all law schools to take the bar examination. Which

perhaps was a good thing, but let me say this: that when you graduated from the

University of Florida, you knew more law than those students who passed the

bar examination. And I may say I'll prove this by this statement: We had the

one graduate in my class who decided he was not going to--I mean one student

in my class who decided he was not going to be able to graduate. And 4dt^ he was

from Gainesville, but I guess I'd better not call his name. Anyway, he slips

up to Tallahassee to take the bar examination during his last semester, and passes

the bar and gets to be a lawyer before his graduation from the University of

Florida has been in effect. That's good proof I think, that we were better

equipped than t~ipaware.
S: Were there many people at the time of your graduation who were still reading

law, and not going through a college course in law, and gaining admittance to

the bar?

C: Yes, let me go back just a little beyond that--when I came to Ocala to practice

law, I was the youngest lawyer in Ocala and 01 was about, only about 12 lawyers

UF 108A -18-

in Ocala, and there was only three of those lawyers that had a college degree.

The others had studied law in law offices and passed the bar. Way back, prior to

that time, and this was a little before my time, now) Arcuit judges could

admit people to practice law. And we had one lawyer in Ocala, when I was here,

his name was S-as;en, who was admitted to practice law by a local circuit judge.

Prior to being a lawyer, he was clerk of the circuit court, Then he was given

an exam by the judge, and admitted to practice law, and practiced law here the

rest of his life. He was a fairly good lawyer.

S: Let me ask you, did, you mentioned that A&, the faculty of the college of law

were almost like parents to the students.

C: Um hum.

S: Did they help in any way in trying to place their graduates?

C: Yes, they did. They helped very much in trying to place their graduates.

S: Um hum. Did.yr*g they have any particularypj4 long term connections as far as

obtaining perhaps clerkships with the supreme court for their students? dh.

would that be one place where the supreme court would have been very likely--the

Florida Supreme Court would have been very likely to obtain law clerks?

C: I think it would have been, although I'm really not familiar with that.

S: Um hum. 4, p o you mind if I ask, if in your case, any of themn-_iIr, attempted

to give you a hand in Qe in getting started in the profession?

C: Yes, they did, and I.ot did not intend to mention because I didn't think it

was important. But when Id*re; attended the University of Florida, the

students at the law school, and I believe that's still true, donnot belong to
the ROTC.

S: Um hum.

C: So, having been in the military, and having been, at that time only 18 years of

age, and thinking I was going to be an officer I still had the desire to be

an officer, so I entered the ROTC voluntarily from the law school. They gave me


UF 108A -19-

one year's credit for my service in the SATC. So I was able-to graduate from

ROTC at the end of my three-year period, but I have not been able to go to senior

ROTC. So I had to, after I finished my college course, and gotten a degree, I

hem to go u to senior ROTC. And I had l 1 .. in nice position in

Ft. Myers, with a lawyer, : ACS the help of my professors, but I couldn't take it,

because I had to go in the senior ROTC training. And so, when I got back, I

had no job. I finally got one in Orlando. Only stayed there about six months,

and then came to Ocala and got a job here, and have been here ever since.

S: I see. So basically, they tried to take care of their graduates...

C: They did, they tried to take care of all of us, and they did take care of me,

but I just couldn't use what they obtained for me.

S: I see. %, waso there much difference in the way that the ROTC operated after the

war' from the way WSV the SATC had been operating that first semester?

C: Almost exactly the same.

S: Um hum. Did you still'#.4SM receive any compensation for your participation?
C: In the ROTC, you receive no compensation your first two years. "Wat was called

junior ROTC. ~M, of course, I bnly had one s'eiior ROTC year, for which I did

receive soa compensation.

S: But otherwise, they were almost the same as far as the demands...

C: I really couldn't tell any difference.

S: Um hum.

c: A :&ra'h thcci '5zbIcA' & r C,

S: Okay. f3 I'd like to ask you a few basic social questions...

C: Sure.

S: About the background of student life in those days. After the war was over,

and people weren't wearing their military uniforms, what sort of clothing did they

wear to classes? How did they dress?

C: Well, when we got out of the service, we were given ft complete outfits.

UF 108A -20-

A* we kept M thee yan-h .. I was given one. In those days, I was a

very poor boy, and many of the students, including myself, continued to wear

our military uniforms after we got out of the service. Not continuously, and

not at all times and occasions, but whenever we wanted to.

S: Um hum. Did the law students dress any more formally than the it4 undergraduates

in the other colleges?

C: Thev were~`e less law students that wore uniforms, I would say, than they did

in the other colleges. And then we had a number, believe it or not, of people

who had gotten into the service.ayj, and served. And then some of them went

overseast ad came back to college after the war was over. _, some of them

had been through-college prior to getting in the service. One was in my class.

His name was Fred Miller, he's still a lawyer in Ft. Myers, Florida. And he

came back there, and he wore his second lieutenant's uniform, without the bars

on it.

S: Uh hum.

C: To law school, the time A"C he was there. He came back and entered his senior

year 4P, r^0

S: I see. Did the professors, as you recall,-88~ dress it at all? Did they wear

ties or jackets?

C: Well, they, they did not dress informally in those days, very few people did.

qi they dressed in ordinary business attire.

S: Where did those students who could afford to buy much in the way of civilian

clothing, go to purchase their clothing? Do you recall any particular place?

C: No, I don't. I guess my main reason is because I didn't have much money to

purchase with.

S: Is one of the establishments down, on the square...

C: They bought them mostly in Gainesville.

S: Yeah, yeah, okay. What were some of the things that the students in general,

UF 108A .(- yj -21-

A d% for recreation in those days, immediately following the war?

C: Well,,Ai just ordinary recreation that we have now. On weekends, we'd go to

the lakes, swimming and so forth, and for recreation, there was a lot of

students that went out for athletics, you might call that recreation.

S: Um hum.

C: And kt, of course, we had all kinds of what is commonly hazing, and things like
that that went on when I was there. And some of it was pretty rough. I think,

I don't think much of that goes on now.

S: N6, hardly at all.

C: Afd #* that went on every year when you went back to college, and we used to

do some terrible things in those days that I can tell you about, if you want to

hear about them.

S: Well, could you give me some examples?

C: I'll give you some quick ones, a few of them.
you to see Bill Billings about.

S: Um hum.

C: One year, when we were, we used to call the freshmen rats, you know.

S: Yes, sir.

C: And one year, they took all the rats and cut their hair in different ways. They

cut some of them straight across with clippers, and some like this, some of them

they cut all their hair off, and all sorts of ways. That was the beginning, back

in those days, that was my senior year. And that was the beginning of the time

when some people started having hair longer than most people had in those days,

and those were the boys they worked on first, you know.

S: Yeah.

C: And so, a whole bunch of the students were expelled for that haircutting deal.

The reason why I wanted you to see Bill Billings, he was one who 0, nobody iden-

tified as having taken part in that haircutting. Aid he came up when they were

UF 108A -22-

going to expell all these other boys, and said "I was there too, and I,4;g a hand

in that. If you're going to expell them, you've got to expell me." So, he got

expelled too. They were expelled for about, oh, a month or something like that.

S: Um hum.

C: So, the next year, he got elected as president of the student body. iucJi'C lek '

AMF we used to do all sorts of bad things--this is mainly ,,Ab when we'd win

a football game, we'd have a shirttail parade, theyji call it. We'd get out there

in all kinds of underclotheszand shirts and so forth. And the worst part about

it, we go up town, and we would take over the picture show. Make everybody else

leave, go in there and make them show us the picture. Or we would go in the

restaurants in Gainesville and run everybody out. Take salt and pepper and

spread it all over everything, and just raise hell in general. AT?. and,.0hr, one

time we went into the bakery there and ate up all the bread, took all the bread

and cakes and everything the man had in the bakery. The bakery was then down

there by what we called the T & J Railroad, you know where that is.

S: Yes sir.

C: And then, now I remember one year up there, this was when we were leaving college,

we used to have an old man up there named Buchholz, you know that name in Gaines-

ville, and I think that his son, maybe his grandsons live up there now.

S: Um hum.

C: But anyway, 4S0 y ~hhe was the guy that sort of took care of the students onV

the campus. So we felt we'd stick Buchholz up, see that was our favorite thing--

to play jokes on him, because he couldn't stand it, and he would just raise

heaven. He never cursed anybody, but he just raised the devil with us, that's

all he could do, I guess. So, the stairs in Thomas and Buckman Hall, you know,

go around like this--I guess that they still do.

S: Um hum.

C: So, we took some feather pillows, and cut them open, and turned the feathers

UF 108A -23-

loose on the top floor down on these steps. And then we took, got some syrup,

gallons of syrup...

S: Oh, no. ( gi e")

C: ...and started down, and just poured it on top of these feathers all the way

down. Then we went out on the campus, and dt between Thomas and Buckham Hall,

in those days, they didn't stretch electric wires as they ought to, and they

sort sagged down like this, and we took toilet paper, and we'd throw it over,

we'd pick it up again, and throw it over again. So we had all the wires dropped

with toilet paper. That's one of our nice little schemes we had. I don't know

whether you want all that junk or not, but...

S: Well ~tl'(f this basically would occur then, after a football game, you'd say?

C: Yeah, the parade always occurred after the football game.

S: Uh huh.

C: If we won,you know.

S: Yeah, yeah.

C: If we didn't win, we were very nice and quiet. ie1hat

S: Did you personally observe much or any drinking of alcohol on campus in those


C: %) very little.

S: Um hum.

C: Very, very little. ~4 I almost could say-,45 there was no drinking.

S: Would that have been...

C: Now, that isn't true off of campus. In fraternity houses, and places like that.

But there was no drinking on campus at all that I could, I don't remember any.

S: Would it have been dealt with very harshly?

C: Yes, it would have, sa dealt with very harshly.

S: Um hum.

C: Much more than hazing would have been.

UF 108A -24-

S: Um hum. You think that Dr. Murph had a more more tolerant attitude toward

hazing practices than towards drinking?

C: Well, he as far as I know, judging by his talks and all, he was against both

of them very much, and equally. But actually, he must have not been as strong

against the hazing, because he, he didn't stop it.

S: Um hum.

C: And, 31I the drinking didn't go on. I can't tell you any more than just that.

S: Um hum. But there was some drinking to some extent at fraternity houses? Parties?

C: Yes, dances, and things like that. They were off of the campus, you know.

S: Um hum.

C: ~4, es. W? didn't seem to be supervised much in those days. I don't know

whether they are now or not. I guess not now.

S: Not much at all. 09 did students have many ways of striking up an acquaintance

with a local girl in GAinesville, many socially accepted ways in those days?

C: Oh, yes.

S: What would some of them had been?

C: Well, .f195fW of course the fraternities were number one. Although, it those ,

days, I would say that<3Mt of the students, or maybe it was as many as --S of

the students, did not belong to a fraternity. The only students who really

belonged to a fraternity in those days were ones whose fathers had belonged to

them, some relatives, or something like that. not all together, but I-mean

that was the, the basis for it. But we had a lot of public dances around/d^

in various places, and we had a lot of dances in the Ai auditorium we had out

there, and M4A we met the girls that way.

S: glt by the auditorium, are you referring to the brick gymnasium?

C: Yes, I'd better say the gymnasium. We called it the auditorium, oo

when I was here.

S: Um hum.

UF 108A -25-

C: I believe that's the old one that's there, I think they have two there now,

don't they?

S: Well, y. of course, they have Florida gym, which was built after the second

world war, and they have the new O'Connell balloon structure that they've had so

many problems with. But the brick building is still standing. They tore down

the wooden gym that was next to that. 4C... 1i' -^ I~V- *

C: I think it was an all wooden gym.

S: ...through the 30s and 40s. Yeah, i, I meant to ask you about this brick

building, -gymnasium, or...


C: I'll have to say that I did not. I heard him speak here in Ocala, Florida.

S: Uh huh.

C: One time.

S: Um hum. AwA do you recall Byran visiting the campus at all?

C: No, I don't.

S: Urn.

C: But, evidently, it might have been the time that he spoke in Ocala, because I

know that he did speak in Ocala.

S: Um hum.

C: But I don't remember whether he did at the University of Florida.

S: IaS I understood that he has been an admirer of Dr. Murphy, and a visitor

to the campus.

C: What's that?
re ,
S: I say, I understood that he had been an admirer of Dr. Murphy, and a friend of

the university...

C: Well, he

S: Now you say, there were some dances held in that building, that you remember?

UF 108A -26-

C: Yes, many of them.

S: Uh ha\, And you mentioned I think, a0, or implied dances held in the

community? Somewhere, where, where would those had been held? Off campus?

C: Yes. ; ,well I'll have to take that back, except to explain in this way, that
they were usually at private homes.

S: I see.

C: 64> and that's the only ones I can recall.

S: Um hum. When you were a student, were there still comp*sory chapel services?

C; Yes.

S: Uh hum. Where were those conducted?

C: In the)* over there in the auditorium, most of them.

S: Okay.

C: f1 I might tell you something about that if you wish to, I'll talking too much.

S: I wish you would. Not at all.

C: Well, have you ever heard of James Milton?

S: Yes, sir.

C: He's quite a singer, you know. Famous singer. He was really discovered by Dr.

Murphy over there.

S: Oh, really?

C: Yeah, we hadodpth services over there, and James was singing, and MurphbgO3

found out who it was, and told him he had a wonderful voice, and he ought to do

something about it. And that led him to get into the profession, and he didi

became a success.

S: I see.

C: He E____ himself many times.

S: Huh.

C: James M1lton was from Ocala. I knew him really well.

S: ]RA^b \ 5C,

UF 108A -27-

C: He was about two or three years younger than me.

S: Um hum. Do you.00, well, let me put it this way, it's my understanding that at

the chapel services, the various faculty members would take turns in presiding.

Is that correct, as you remember?

C: Yes.

S: Can you recall how they handled it? Did they just read from scripture, or did

they try to speak about problemsooin contemporary life, or do you remember?

C: Well, I must say that I don't remember too much about it, maybe that was because

I was not interested in MB'\- ""AS!d" I remember,,-a -,.Dr. MurphgoC

presiding many, many times, and it seems to be like that he presided nearly all

the time.

S: Did he?

C: Took part in everything there, and 24y it was not a sermon really, but it
01-3 'CTOq- C I 7-a
was wieoe-a~-aa eta-T- d lecture, you might say.

S: Um hum.

C: That's the only, that's about the only distinction I can give you. And we did

sing religious songs there, and those things.

S: Where did the students goo,.to do their laundry, or to get their laundry done?

C: Well, there were laundries, of course, in Gainesville, but as I recall it, there

were several students that,-th a ,-_1 either collected laundry, I know they made

some money that way.

S: Um hum.

C: And I know that there were several of them that had pressing shops-of their own

on University Avenue.

S: I see.

C: I don't think any of them could have had a laundry, but I think they collected

the laundry for.!
S: I see. ( 1ig AR-, I meant to ask you about ~, the student job that you mentioned

UF 108A -28-

when we began talking.

C: Yes.

S; Do you recall how you obtained that position?

C: Iw1gEpa do not remember too much of the details, but I know you had to apply

for it, and I know that e, someone in the college, I don't know who it was,

or what group it was, passed on youru,fe application. And it was based on

needs, mainly. Whether you needed it or not. From a financial standpoint.

And the longer that you worked over there,--ah; waiting on tables, you improved

your status a little bit. Of course, we had one of them that was the boss.

He was higher up, 'cikI'd2~'; he watched everybody. And he was a student too,

but he was on the top. He was the number one guy. But as you waited on tables,

the kitchen being back there, and the dining room being right north of -ES

i rt--- agE the longer time you waited on tables, the nearer you got back

to the kitchen.
S: Uh huh.

C: And it was remarkable in those days, what us students could do. We had aue

floor and it was real slick. And it so happened that the boards of the floor

went, ran from north to south. And we would get about half-way of that room,

and stop and slide the rest of the way. chok'-) With a great big*4b4 tray of

food on our hands. Sometimes, somebody fell, but very rarely.

S: Was that operatedi@f as.06a% well, as a cafeteria, or as a boarding house?

C: It was operated not as a cafeteria. It was operated with lyt. with the student

waiters taking the food from the kitchen, and carrying it out to the tables.

S: I see. So you didn't serve individuals, you served tables.

C: We served tables with dishes in individuals--sitting there, students had their

plates, and they helped themselves.

S: I see.

C: Which was quite a mess. Especially when you hadten~!-r'SEAT

UF 108A -29-

S: I'll bet. Now, didq#Oo you take part in any university athletic activities?

C: Just about all of them.

S: Did you? Did you play football?

C: Yes, I, of course, never made the varsity, because in those days, I weighed 130

and 135 pounds. So I was one of the boys they practiced on.

S: Uh huh.

C: I went out ft everything, I think, but tennis. I$4.weighed about 130 pounds

whahni entered the university, and I kept that weight all the way through. -hy.

I went out for baseball, and I went out for football. -f. finally, then, after

trying out Aft everything, decided that I was going to box.

S: Um hum.

C: And so, I was the lightweight boxing champion at the University of Florida in

my junior and senior years. Then when I went to ROTC. senior camp in Ft. Knox,

Kentucky, then, not camp--no, the camp's 9S Knot's End, not at Ft. Knox. 9,

we had tournaments therewte on boxing. And we had boxing about every other

night. See, we were there for two months. Or ninety days, I don't know. Two

months, I believe it was. 091_we had boxing there about every other night.

Between all the branches of the service, and the states, and all that sortcof

stuff. Well, having been a boxer, and having been champion at the University of

Florida, they picked me out, and all I ever did in senior ROTC was box. I never

did anything else except one time, I went out on the rifle range. One time.

,(C^fEiaiP I guess that was so they could say I had some experience in it. And

I used to box about twice a week, about every other night, I mean, but I did

a lot of boxing there.

S: Um hum.

C: And then, they'd work this thing out by elimination, see? And finally, I made

the final tournament, and University of Florida did fine there, but I got in as

a lightweight boxer, and by that time, I started to gain some weight. Not much,

UF 108A -30-

but a little tiny bit. And I got to 135. And that was the top weight.

S: Uh, huh.

C: So about two days before this final tournament, I weighed, and I weighed in at
136 pounds.

S: U0 oh.
_'^OT so4O,^ /,
C: T3imsWa sits, brother, what are you going to do? So, for nearly 48 hours, before

this final bout that I was in, I didn't eat or drink any water. And I went in

to that bout, and I had just got in to it at 135. Because when you're in excel-

lent training that way, it's hard to lose weight. You haven't got any fat, or

anything else to lose. And I didn't then. And I won the bout, and I won it

from a boy from the University of California. And those are the bouts they

still have. There's three rounds, you know.

S: Uh hum.

C: And no more, and it means that every fighter puts everything that he's got into

it at -every minute. 4 I never lost a bout in my whole career, up until that

time, t I never did lose one. But after I had been out of college for a year

we had a high school tournament up there--I'd been in training, I had been running

three miles a day, but like the training that I was getting.

S: Yeah.

C: Well, I was invited up there, and asked to box with who was then the lightweight

champion at the University of Florida. So they asked me, "Do you want this as

a decision bout, or do you just want to put on a boxing...?" I said, "No, I

don't care." He wanted this, he wanted the decision bout because I had this
ROTC __. Well, I got in there, and that was the first time I had

almost been defeated in my life. I got in the first round, this was three rounds,

and I knew that I had won the first round.

S: Um hum.

C: Of course, I didn't know why. Then the second round started up, and that boy just

UF 108A -31-

pelted me to pieces. And-r. for the first time, I had somebody that I was

boxing that could break through, really break through my guard.

S: Um hum.

C: And he used the same kind of tactics in boxing--he must have studied mine--that

I used. ANd he concentrated on my face. And on my eyes. That's where I used

to box. I never bothered people down there. And,,.4C so he just beat the devil

out of me in that second round. And here I am, proud of my championship, and

all that, you know, and God, here I was getting beat. Boy, you get out there

this time and you throw everything you've got into that thing. So I did, and I

didn't guard, I just didn't. I threw away my guard, entirely, and just went

after him.

S: Um hum.

C: I figured that was the only way the only way I could possibly win. So anyways,

they gave me the first round, gave him the second round, and called the third

round a draw--maybe they were giving me a break, I don't know, but .ArB it

came up as a tie. That was my boxing record. Here's something I can

show you--I've got a gold medal here, from the army of the United States, for

winning the ROTC.

S: Oh, that's neat.

C: It's got my name on it, got a Lt. C. A. Savage on it, I didn't get my commission

until two or three weeks later, but they put that on, there anyway.

S: Well, that's a great record. Who was your coach at Florida? Who was the boxing...?

C: Oh my God, I can't remember the man's name. I ought to remember, but I don't.

Actually, since I'm doing some bragging, and don't intend for it to be that way,
I'm just trying to tell you some things that you don't know.

S: Oh, no, you're telling me what really happened.

C: But in my senior year; boxing, by the way, I think in those days was considered

more important than it is now/in athletics. I don't know, Boxing doesn't

UF 108A -32-

amount to anything up there anymore, does it?

S: No, it doesn't. Do you think it's because it was, probably at that time, consid-

ered definitely a manly kind of a thing...

C: I think so. You know that...

S: It's clean, also?

C: Yeah, it might have been, and it might beA-I really don't know why, really, but

it was considered a great deal in those days. But anyway, -Wat s me, I thought

I could beat anybody in the world boxing, so in my senior year at the University

of Florida, I had won the lightweight championship, and it was the _VC-X1t -

wedght, that's the next weight, you know,145, in those days, I don't know what
-ro r
they are now, but I challenged the t\f C(weight champion M his title. JaDe

And we put on a boat, and I won it. So I, in my last yeardI was both lightweight

and senior, I.mean, the cAYS weight champion.

S: Now did you hold this...

C: That' spe.4w 6-e.

S: Go ahead.

C: Well, that boy, I never realized what a little bit of difference in weight would

mean. And what I did, I had a style of boxing like everybody else does, sort

of unique to myself. I left my stomach muscles and all tM~Q' down here wide open.

I wanted my opponent to hit me there.

S: Um hum.

C: Because when he hits me there, we've both got our arms up at the same elevation.

It takes him longer to hit, a longer reach to hit me here than it does me to hit

him in the face.

S: Right.

C: That was one of my principles in boxing.

S: Um hum.

C: Well, that old boy, he fell for it, and but, when the next day, when I had a

UF 108A -33-

blue spot on my stomach, it was that big around. I'm telling you. He really

pounded me, but4. I was lucky, really. He might have won the bout, but I

broke his nose. That's hard to do with a boxing glove. But I broke his nose

in the third round, and boy, the blood just spouted everywhere.

S: Yeah.

C: And they gave me the bout, because he couldn't--he quit.

S: Uh huh.

C: They had to take him off to the doctor--I've never seen anybody's nose bleed so

much before. (uc)4 l) I wi'sh .thaft';.

S: I was going to ask you where they held those bouts.

C: They held them in the gym.

S: These were also in the gym. Were they pretty well-attended?

C: Yes, they were. They were very well-attended. In those days, I would say that

4 boxing, no wait a minute, I have to put it this way, football was the most

important, baseball number two, and boxing number three.

S: Um human.

C: We had wrestling too. A lot of wrestling. si-hs I never could see anything to.

Because when you get a real wrestling match, that is, not framed up, it's not

interesting. These, these professionals you see, they're all, you know, just

completely framed up, they fly up in the air, and hit on the floor, and they're

always breaking hold...

S: No, well, certainly not Ien exciting,~~, S. -p- like boxing.

C: College wrestling in those days was just sort of an endurance match, that's all,

who could stand the longest and the most punishment. And it was very uninteresting,

I thought.

S: Um hum.

C: And the students thought so too, anyway.

S: Um hum.

UF 108A -34-

C: Well, I'll shut up and let you ask some questions.

S: I was going to ask youfoi)s)- you sort of already answered this, but I was going

to ask you if you could give me a general evaluation of the legal training that

you received at the university as against t4r the realities of practicing law as

you found them when you started to practice. In other words, how well were you

prepared, and how successfully ? I know you talked some about this, but...

C: Yes, I think I practically answered that, but I would say thac.,wd. what we lacked

was,-t' the ability to find the law.

S: Um hum.

C: That's one thing we lacked in those days. ANd another, we lacked the actual know-

ledge of courtroom procedure. One time during our college career, we tried a

case in a practice court. Just one time. I imagine that they do that a lot now,

but I don't know, but that was true in those days, they did it just one time.

S: I understand...

C: a tgY-I don't know why, I guess I was, they just didn't have time. I never

saw a case tried in a courtroom until after I was permitted to practice law.

S: There was no requirement then, for you to attend court sessions aSin Gainesville?

C: Just one in college.

S: Huh.

C: And ui~ so, .tha hTF that's what you lack, you lack the practical knowledge of

court procedure, and you lack the ability to find the law. You know how to use

lawbooks, you know. We had one little course, How to find the Law, was the

name of it, and it didn't amount to anything.

S: Um hum.

C: Now you take a law student up there, his senior year, we use them all the time

here. They can find the law. And let me say another thing, along with that one

thing, and that's all. When I got out of school, and I went to find the law,_rSS,

and this is true still, young lawyers and law students, but it's not as much so,

UF 108A -35-

they've overcome it to a large extent, I don't know how. You'dr ..Wio-. have a

principle of law you thought you were looking for. A/d you'd go to looking in

these law books, and the first thing you'd know, you'd get branched off on some

side issue, you know.

S: Um hum.

C: And you wouldn't know it, and you would carry on until the end.

S: Um hum.

C: I don't, that's hardly explained, but that" j#se what happened.

S: Um hum.

C: And so, you lacked the knowledge of court procedure, and you lacked the knowledge

of how to find the law.

S: Would this...

C: The law courses snow .u0aare much better than they were when I was in college.

S: Um hum.

C: So much better.

S: Would this problem had partly been a result of the fact that Florida was a relatively

poor state, and that there wasn't much in the way of a legal library there, at

the university?

C: No, we had a good library. A f the University of Florida, I think, has always

had a good law library.

S: Um hum.-

C: But we didn't know how to find the law in the law library.

S: So it was an omission on the part of the faculty'then? They did not give you...

C: It was an omission, a lack of knowledge, A$4 due to the courses that we had. They

did not teach you how to find the law like they should have.

S: Um hum. I see.

C: And that was the one thing you lacked. And that 's a very big lack, too. \It cr-

you to know something.

UF 108A -36-

S: Is there anything thatrMrhyyou noted down in,-.~c t tgmek this interview,

that we haven't covered that you think is of importance, that you would like to

bring up?

C: Let's see, \ v4e C. n ^\ -( ( (YV Well, let me say just one thing

about the football team. And that's generally known, I think. And due to the

fact that people are larger now. 'j\ in those days, our football players were

much smaller than they are now. &t the whole time that I was at the University

of Florida, we never had but one player that weighed as much as 200 pounds.

S: Um hum.

C: ..A"i;eAV';A_ that's about all, I think, that I wanted to add to 06 football. aBE-

S: Where was the football field, incidentally, at that time?

C: Believe or not, right where it is raEW now. Finally.

S: Um hum.

C: Prior to that, when I first went there--well, it was right where it is now, but

it wasn't as large as it is now. It was a little further north, just a tiny bit

to the north.

S: Where they park now?

C: Yes.

S: North of the end zone?

C: Right along through there.

S: Uh huh. -

C: What they did was, they e terde ake the old football field a parking area, and,:

then they filled in that low area there for the present football field. You know,

it continues on south there until finally all the water and drainage goes on down


S: Right,um hum. Okay, well, that's about all the questions that I had prepared for

you, Mr. Savage.

UF 108A -37-

C: I don't know of anything that I could add, other than what we have gone over.

S: Let4I# me just say for the benefit of the tape, that we will be giving you,

as I mentioned, a transcript of the interview, and we will be pleased to have

you go over it, and clean it up, however you care to. And then we will retype a

final clean, single-spaced version of it, and we will send you a copy of that, and

at that point, we will be asking you to sign a legal release allowing us to put

that into the collection with the other interviews that we have.
C: What I will get, will it be a written...,

S: You will get, first of all, a double-spaced rough transcript that you can edit.

And then after you edit it, it is sent back...

C: And I take it, and I write it over again.

S: However you care to.

C: Correct it, eliminate some things, and...

S: It's totally to your discretion, whatever you care to do to it. And then we make

up the final draft...

C: You make sure you make it like I told you to.

S: Okay, we'll get you a copy of the final draft. Okay.

C: Yes, well, I enjoyed the talk with you.


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