Title: Anne Little
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Title: Anne Little
Series Title: Anne Little
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UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)
DATE: J 9tN. 9n1

R: My name is Emily Ring. I am sitting in the beautiful home of Mrs. Win-

ston W. Little, Anne, located here in Gainesville and I'm going to

have to get the address, testing, testing...

My name is Emily Ring; I am sitting in the beautiful home of Anne

Little, Mrs. Winston W. Little, who spells her name A-n-n-e, located

at 2245 NW Fifth Place. We're going to have a conversation about Anne's

life and about the life of her late husband, Dean of the College, of

University College of University of Florida.

Anne, we. want to go back first::to youf-origins, to your roots:

where you came from, who your parents were, the dates of their birth,

and if you do remember anything about your grandparents, tell us about

-them too,

Li All right. Well, although. I1 in Gainesville., 'm Anne Little, but
H wmu 6e r-
I was born, my name is really Anna Stallings 4emba Little.

R: My goodness!

L: Well, isn't that impressive? And I was born in Lumpkin, Georgia, which

is not too far from Plains, Georgia.

R: Perhaps you'd better spell those tw& middle names for us.

L: Stallings, S-t-a-l-l-i-n-g-s, and Humber, H-u-m-b-e-r. I was born-

do I have to give my age and dates, I guess?

R: Well, if you don't mind.

L: November the twenty-fourth, 1913. And,uh, my father was James Flowers

Humber, and he was born in, uh, in a house in the.-middle- of what is

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: now Providence Canyons. If you will look in a map of Georgia, you will

see Providence Canyons listed there. And it is miniature Grand Canyon.) A

It's a beautiful formation--

R: What part of Geor-, what part of Georgia?

L: This is Stuart County, just oh, I'd say fifty miles south of Plains,

somewhere in there.

R: Oh!

L: And, um, they, we, the family owned all of this area, and then, oh, fif-

teen or twenty years ago the state condemned the part that the canyons

are on-- itts public domati, you know- and bought it from us for a

minimal amount and planned to make a very elaborate state park there.

R: Well now was your brother-

1: They never have developed it completely, but it is a beautiful for-

mation, and if you're on Highway 27 ever, it's worth the trip over to

4 see the canyons, because they are beautiful.

R: Ah, is this place on the Appalachian Trail? the walking trail?

L: No.

R: But these are the foothills of the Appalachians.

L: Mm-hm.Yes. Oh, and um, we still own, our brother and sister and I still

own, own,, I guess 800 acres or so around this canyon.

R: Right near Plains!

L: Well, mm-hm. I never, never never expected to that quaint Plains would

be in the news because it's, when I was growing up, it was just a little

crossroads. The only thing that was there was a hospital, and I always

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: said the Humbers owned at least a wing of the hospital because there

was somebody in my family over there in Plains Hospital all the time

as I was growing up, it seems to me.

R: I see, uh huh.

L: Anyway-

R: But you never knew the Carter family?

L: Well, there were Carters in Lumpkin and um, they are connected, I'm

pretty sure.

R:" Mm-hm.

L: Some of my family know Jimmy but I don't.

R: I see, uh huh.

L: Ur, my mother-- shall we get back to the place?

R: Yes.

L: -- was Mary Richards Humber and she was born December the thirtieth,

1888, and she died February the t*enty-fourth, 1962, and my mother was

just one of these very, very specially gifted people of theods. She

was Beautiful, she was talented, she could just sit down at the piano

and play anything by ear: But she also was a trained musician, and

she taught music. And, ur, she was an outgoing, warm..oh, beautiful

person physically and spiritually.

R: Did she have a large family?

L: I had a brother and sister.

R: Are they still living?

L: My brother and sister are, yes.

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston'W.)

R: Now give us their names, Anne.

L: Uh, my sister is Martha Humber f ote and she lives in Mary-

ville, Tennessee. And my Brother is James Flowers Humber, Jr., and he

has a son, "the third", and he has a son, "the fourth".

R: I see.
i it
L: And he lives still on the place in Miississippi.

R; Now-what was your fathers occupation?

L: Well, he was a planter.

R: I see.

L: I was going to say that as I was growing up I was veiry proud of the

name. "HiBiaer". I thought it was very special, because it's one of the

oldest English names. If you go back to the Anglo-Saxon chronicle to

the year--, think it"s 935, it may be 957, but'it's early in the Anglo-

\Saon, chronicle-- the Humber River is mentioned. Course families at

that 'time didn't have names, but the Humber River is mentioned there,

and and all of that.

R: I see.

L: So I always felt very proud of the name Humber until I suddenly realized

somewhere in my development that I'd never heard of a prominent Humber

in English history or English literature or anything else, so perhaps

they weren't so outstanding, but they were landed gentry in England-

R: I see.

L: and three brothers came over to Virginia and settled in Goochland County,

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: In what county?

L: Goochland,County of Virginia.

R: G--double 0-crh-l-a-n-d?

L: Right. And then spread out from there. Um...

But I grew up in this little town of Lumpkin, and it was an inter-

esting life. You know, I lived there in a small town surrounded by

aunts and uncles and cousins and family. And I was growing up, we were

the, the Big frogs in the little pond, if you know what I: mean by that.

f,: Oh yes-, like the Carters were in Plains,yes.

L; Yes.

R: Well that givela very strong sense of your own identity, doesn't it?

L: Yes, it does, it certainly does. And it was a wonderful kind of a

life. Somebody had said that this book that Carter's cousin has writ-

ten gives a good picture of the life in south Georgia then. I haven't

read it, I-want to read it and see if I agree with it. But um, you

know, as Eudora *L and even more, I think, William Alexander

Percy GV X 14" 01

R: Yes.

L: -um, give the picture of the life in Mississippi.

R: Yes.

L: It was very interesting to grow up there.

And I had a grandfather. His name was Robert Thdophilus Humber.

And he was a real patriarch. He ruled all his eleven children completely.

R: Uh-huh. A real patriarch.

L: Yes! And we were all expected, every Sunday afternoon we had to go to

Father's house, on Sunday afternoons.

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: You're speaking now of your grandfather.

L: Yes.

R: And you called him Father.

L: Everyone called him Father, yes. But anyway, he was interesting and

ruled the roost. But also-

R: Ke demanded attention.

L: Yes, he did, and he got it, and he, he was an interesting person. Hr I+ .

-But anyway, we moved, I know you'll ask me why we moved to Missis-


R: I was just getting ready to.

L: Well, my grand father's brother, Jim Kumber, ah, was kind of the family

adyenturer and he. went out to the unknown wilds of Mississippi, to

the delta--

l,, IE see, yes.

L; -- and developed a plantation out there.

R; It was wild.

L: It was!

R: Yes.

L: And yes, they had to open up the swamps-

R: Yes.

L: -and it was wild country.

R: They hadn't built the levees?

L: No, not when he went up there.

R_: _.oNa9__.---- --- -

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: mn-mm.

And uh, he died, though, and left the place to my daddy who was

his namesake, and to other cousins.

R: Now this was near Clarksdale?

L: M-11m 1 AJ Arm

And uh, they tried to sell the place. All of this was happening

in the 'Twenties, and my grandfather had overextended in Stuart County

and in Sumter County and suddenly, where we'd had you know, compara-

tive wealth, r mean ... very comfortably situated- !ddenly, land had

no value and there was no money anywhere. So, my father and mother :

moved to 'ississippt to take. over this place-

R: Mm-Fm.

L: that had been left. And it must have been- when I look back and

think what a traumatic experience that must have been for them who al-

ways lived their lives in this protected area, family A I to

pick up and move to Mississippi must have been quite a wrenching exper-

ience for them.

R: Yes.

L: For me, it was really traumatic. We moved out there in the end... in

the Christmas vacations from my, ah, my freshman year in high school.

And you can understand,:'in a small high'.school where I was supposed to

have a tremendous IQ, and I just, you know, sailed through the school


R: Yes.

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: --no problem. I went out suddenly to this very good and much bigger

high school in Mississippi that was ruled by a Prussian. It was a,

it really was a good, thorough school, and I'm very thankful for the

Backing it gave, background it gave me.

R: Yes.

L: But it was a big change from what-

R: I'm sure--

L: --I had been..aceustomed to.

R: I'm sure you had to study Latin.

L: Oh, yeah, I loved Latin.

R: Uh-huh.

L: I loved Latin, I loved English, and French and history, I had no prob-
i 1e A 40n! >
lems there. But, I was a .j 4 -cdya b; the world of mathematics

and I just was lost, I've always been lost in mathematics, -

R: So have I.

L: But anyway, I back there and, uh, the, the teacher of the math

class was very brusque and she said the first day I was there me

shriveling in my boots-- cold! it was the coldest weather I've ever

'met in my life. And--in this big school where nobody'd ever heard of

a Number ever-- and she looked at me and when she'd ask me a question.

I couldn't answer, she'd say, "Hm! You must be dumb like the rest of


Well, that did it, you know.

R: Oh, Ant i

---L So I sat up till midnight every night and struggled with those

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: quadratic equations, and... I made A's in that course all the way

through. I made A's in math all the way through,,solid geometry, and

when I finished a I closed the math book, I've never opened one


R: Yes.

L: I think that's one reason I never went to graduate school, I knew I'd

never pass the math!

R: You'd have to take--

R: You'd have to take statistics!

L: Yeah! So, anyway, that was it.

But when we moved out there, it was,um, in the, as I said, the

Christmas vacations of 'Twenty-seven. We, ah, moved into this ugly

little cold house... this place had been stripped of everything...

R: You would have been fourteen.

L: Right there, correct.

R: Yes.

L: Mm-hm. And--I never would move a child at that age. There's too much

that's happening anyway, it's too crucial in your development.

R: Right.

L: And,uh, suddenly to be plunged from where you knew everybody and were

sure of everything, into this situation _tat wa totally different

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.1

L: we were way out in the country, eleven miles out in the country. Nobody

had money this was 'Twenty.. !Twenty-seven-and-

R: Before the Great Depression? But I always-

L: People already were. feeling it.

R: I always said that the Great Depression reached Mississippi a decade


L: It did!

R: Yes.

L: You know, people were feeling it already-

R: Yes,yes.

L: -out there. And, ur, nobody had the gas to do much traveling back then.

The first time I saw the river-- our place was right on the edge,

the levee went through-- when they built the new levee, Daddy always

said, -they took a hundred acres of his best land to fill the


R: Oh.

L: It went right over our place and I would wake up at night and hear the

riverboats sounding--

R: Ah!

L: --at night, you know, it was a lot of...

But my first view of the river- we drove over there, of course,

one of the first days we were out there, and climbed the little old

levee and there was the river, lapping against the top of the levee.

It was like a roiling lake, you know. You could see for miles across

there, it must have been at least five miles wide--

R: My goodness.


INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


L: -this river.

R: Yes.

L: And it was, it was, you know, a flood stage. ,It was right at the top

there, and we all thought, "Woe is us! What have we gotten into!"

R: Stupendous sight!

L: It was, don't you know! Later they, um, you.know, built new levees and

widened the distance between them,--

R: Mm-hm.

L: -but, it still wasn't impressive like that river's impressive, I don't


R: It really is.

L: -when you see it.

Well now listen, I'm rambling too much. What-

R: No, you're not!

Now did your brother, uh, take part in the,uh, in the workings of

the farm, or did he go to school? Uh, you had a sister and a brother?

L: Mm-hm,

Ar TVW, they~were younger than, you, or--?

L: Yes, younger -

R: They were younger. So they were not ready yet to go out in the world.

L: No...uh, no, uh, my sister was much younger, she was a baby when we

moved out there. But my brother was four years younger and, uh, he

went to Emory--

R: I see, uh huh.

L: -for his education. And, uh, I went to Agnes Scott, I went back to



UF83A Matyhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: Georgia, that was mother's--

R: After you got through with this very difficult high school.

L: Yeah. But I got through high school just fine, um...

R: Now what year did you graduate':from high school?

L: In 'Thirty-one--

R: Uh-huh.

L: --and I had the lead in the senior play,and-

R: And this was called the Clarksdale High School?

L: Clarksdale High School, uh-huh.

R: You had the lead in the senior play?

L: Uh-huh.

R: Uh-huh, do you remember what the play was?

L: Yes, It was Captain Applejack,: and I was this fake Russian dancer.

Oh, I loved-I had a gorgeous dress, I don't know how Mother found

the money to buy it, but she did, and I loved it and I got more ap-

lause by far than anybody you know and I just--

R: Ah!

L: -that was the most euphoric feeling I've ever had--

R: Yes, indeed!

L: --all that applause-

R: Uh-huh-

L: -and uh, I would have loved to go on the stage from that point on,


R: Yes.

L: -- in 'Thirty-one, you didn't go on the stage k t---

R: No.


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: My family would have died, anyway.

R: So now, how did you happen to go to Agnes Scott? I understand it

was a very expensive college, and yet your family was short of money...

L: I don't know...yes, they were, uh-

R: Did you get a scholarship?

L: I got a scholarship-

R: I see.

L:- and my grandmother helped, and my mother, my father had a good

friend who was the president of the bank, and uh, he helped me...

I don't know how they did it, When r look- Florence- '/A/AAAAA

and I were talking one. day about growing up at this age, how in the

world our parents managed to do for us what they did, we don't know.

R: Yes.

L: You know, we really don't, but there's-

R: That's right.

L: -nobody had any money *

R: No, indeed.

L: And, um, I'm not just sure how they worked it, but they did, and I went

the four years to Agnes Scott and loved it and had a wonderful experi-

ence there. But, one reason Mother had wanted me to go there was for

the sake of the Metropolitan Opera that came every spring to Atlanta,

and Mother used to go when we lived in Georgia, d Mother used to gor-

R: Mm-bm.

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: -up to Atlantato the operabecause she loved it so, and I grew up with

an old-we had an old Edison, you know, with records that thick, you


R: Yes,yes.

L: with Caruso and Alma ~ rJ e and Louise 9OV'"and Gallagher

(6 .7) 1y, you know.

R: They were the same records we had in our home, in Jackson, Mississippi-

L: You grew up with those.

R: Right. They came with the Victrola machine.

L: Yes. Well, later we had Victrola, but I can remember the first one was-

R: Uh-huh.

L: -that old... Edison... Anyway,wouldn't you know that the four years

that I went to Agne/ Scott were the four years the Metropolitan stopped

A coming to Atlanta?

R: How sad!

L: 'Thirty-one to 'Thirty-five, they couldn't afford itf 0( -

R: Oh.my goodness.

L: And they came the spring before I got there, they came the spring after,

but not the four years I- but the were wonderful concerts, I remember,

urn, oh,Paderewski, and Gladys Swarthout and Lily Pond, and Laurence

TibBett, and um,Martinelli... and uh,...

R: Now did you yourself study piano at Agnes Scott?

L: No, not at Agnes Scott. l took piano as I was growing up and I took

violin -

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: -Anhe Little (Mrs. Winston W.1

R: Mm- ..

L: -and I played one of the first violins in the school orchestra- but,

I'm not a musician,I wish I were but I'm not, I love music with a

passion, it's one of my great passions, but-but I'm not a musician.

R: Now what did you decide to major in at Agnes Scott?

L: Well, I had a double major. I had English and French double major,

and a minor in history.

R: I see,im-hm.

L: And, um...

R: Do you remember some of your favorite teachers at Agnes Scott?

L: Oh yes, mm-hm. Miss Emily Laney was, I suppose, f favorite

one, she was in English and she was very difficult, and a difficult

person, and some people hated her with a passion. But she was always

very good to me and liked me for some reason.

R: Miss Enma May Laney?

L: Laney, right, ~-C- uh-huh. And she was from Mississippi, by

the way.

R: Oh:...Where?

L: Uh, don't ask me where at this moment because I've forgotten...maybe

it will come to me.

R: Now the years that you were in college, yell fat yea~s are..

L; 'ITheityr-one to 'Thirty-fi've.

R: I' see, uh-huh.

UP83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. WinstonW.)


L: Uh... but now I think my, uh.. my bu-the busiest year of ug life,

I guess, was\my senior year in high school, because I was editor of

the literary magazine. And I was, um, President of Mortar Board, and

because of being President of Mortar Board, I was.the chairman of, ah,

Student Building Campaign, id really worked on that, and we raised

$35,000 there on campus and that doesn't sound like much money now,

bUt-in 1934-35, $35,000 was a lot of money.

R: Yes indeed, uh-huh. Well nowhere you datinfany Emory boys, or...?

L: Very little, I really didn't have much social life at Agnes Scott-

R: You had not started-

L: it was just terribly strict there, and I didn't know,uh... and I

was so busy, I, I, it's...

R: I see.

L: I didn't care much- occasionally, but I didn't, and I had a, ah, a

boyfriend in town whose family lived there,, he didn't go to, uh, /4

R: Uh-huh.

L: But, ah, ah, going out with him was really ... as much...just about

as much social life as I had.

R: I see

L: But anyway, as I was saying, uh, this, then, I graduated with high

honors and I made Phi Beta Kappa.

R: Good.

L: So, myiisenior year was busy, you can imagine.


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little f(rs. Winston W.)

R: Yes, yes.

L: And, then, near the end of the year I got this letter from Florida.

You want to know how I got, how I, came down here.

R: Oh, yes indeed.

L: Well, I got a letter from a Mr. Little down in Gainesville who'd like

to have an appointment with me, an interview, at graduation time because

he and Dean Norman were going to be in Atlanta for the, a meeting of

the Southern Association ...'of...Schools and Secondary Schools, of

Colleges and Secondary Schools.

R: Yes.

L: And, um, he had heard about me from Elizabeth Lynch, his secretary...

R: I see.

L: ...here, who had graduated two years ahead of me at Agnes Scott-

R: Uh-huh.

L: -and she had told him about me, and so, uh, he asked for this inter-

view. Well, I was thrilled to death because, nobody- as far as I

know, nobody when we graduated, had that definite a prospect of a job.

So, he, uh, he arranged for us, my family and me,to meet him at the

Henry Grady Hotel downtown in Atlanta, you know.

R: Yes.

L: And um, so, by that time my mother-my family was there for my gradua-

tion, of course-

R: I see.

L: -and, a cousin or two had come in to see them and me, so all of us,

in a body, went to the Henry Grady and we sat there and we visited

UF83A Mayhew
INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.1

L: and we visited and we visited and we visited- no Mr. Little. We finally

went back to the college and I was just furious and very disappointed,


R: Of course you were.

L: And after I got back, there was a message, a telephone message, and Mr.

Little was on the phone and he wondered why I hadn't shown up.

R: Oh, Anne!

L: And I told him we were all there, and why hadn't he shown up?

R: Yes.

L: And he said he'd, he had been there, he'd asked about me at the desk

several times, and they said I'd never shown up, course I had reported

to the desk- Daddy went regularly to the desk...

R: Oh my:

L: So there was just a41ack of communication.

R: Whatever happened?

L: He'd had me paged two or three times,and we didn't, uh, recognize my

name in the garbled paging.

R: Yes...too bad.

L: So, we missed connections so he asked if maybe we could meet him for

breakfast in the morning. So we did--that was a complication, because

we were ready to head back to Mississippi. But we went, uh, to the

hotel,and had breakfast with Winston and Dean Norman, and ur, had the

interview, and I got the job! So I went home for about, oh, two or

three weeks... and studied typing and shorthand -


INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)



Now you had-

--didn't know either--

You had never studied typing and shorthand before?

Noooo, no! But he figured I could learn those if I was a Bright person,

T could-- -


--learn those skills.


He had a lot of faith.

But, anyway, I came then down here,

of the University College and that was all

from all around-uh, we'll talk about that

sity College niF

Anyway, I had wonderful summer here

Agnes Scott girls here: Mary Jane Tigert...


just in time for fist seminar

of these differenthpeople

later when we get to Univer-

because there were so many

... and, uh, ___ Ruth Buckman,... and Frances Norman, Dean Norman's



- and Mary Bucholz, who was Fred Bucholz' daughter-you remember Fritz

Bucholz, the principal of--

Oh, yes, yes!

the high school? And Lucille Carnes,...


INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winstdn W.I


R: Mm-bm.

L: Lucille George, now... and, uh-

R: Well did you organize an alumni association?

L:g No, we didn't, but they had luncheons and they sent--

R: I see.

L: Urn, at that stage, you know that first summer I hadn't realized the

great social gap that's supposed, supposed to exist between the secre-

taries and the faculty, and I went blithely up to Mr. Little and asked

if I could be a little late 'cause I was going to a luncheon at the

Tigerts'-you know, that sort of thing! [laughter]

R: [laughter] How did he take that?

L: Oh, very well. He was a friend of the Tigerts, they...were good friends

of his, but--

R: He was a Mississippi gentleman.

LI: Uh-huh. He was a wonderful person.

But anyway, I had a wonderful summer. And, um,...uh...I began going

out with Winston and Elizabeth, just 1 that?
Sor F-c'1 -H; q
*44-it-wee. Well, by the end of the summer...

R: Well now what was, what was Winston's position at the University at'

the time that he hired .you? He had- he was in the College of Education,


L: Well, he was a professor in the College of Education, but also,you see,

this was 'Thirty-five, and they were organizing University College, the

General College, they called it.

R: Had he been picked out as the dean of that college?

L: No, not the dean. He was an assistant dean.

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: I see.

L: Dean Matherly was to be the first dean.

R: I see.

L: And either an Assistant or Associate, I've forgotten now which they

called him. But anyway, there had 'Been a committee- that Dr.. Tigert

had appointed: Dean Matherly was chairman, Dr. A.P.Black, and Winston.

R: I see,

L: But, ah, Winston had an office in Language Hall...

R: Uh-huh.

L: ...and um, Elizabeth was his secretary -fIT? yI ,-e i S from

St. Petersburg,too- that'a where he had known her, -i-in high school.

Because he had been the principal for many years, principal of the St.

Petersburg high school.

R: I see.

L: So that's how all of that came about.

Anyway,I was a struggling secretary in his office...

R: Would this be an appropriate place to stop and go back to his origins or

his birth?

L: If you wish, mm-hm.

R: All right.

L: All right.

He was, uh, born, uh, April the fourteenth, 1892, near Brookhaven,

'Mississippi, near Wesson, it's kind of in between Wesson and Brookhaven...

out in, the country.

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: Which is in south-central Mississippi.

L: South-...western.

R: South-western Mississippi.

L: Uh-huh,yes. And um,...he um, was educated at Mississippi College, and

then at the University of Chicago-he got his master's there. And he

went back summer after summer, and had many more hours of work than is

necessary for a doctorate. But Winston never got a doctor's degree, he

just... Winston was a nonconformist, as you probably know from his reputa-


R: Yes.

L: And he just didn't feel that that sort of thing was necessary.

R: Well, the same thing happened to me, I had all the hours necessary but

never gor the actual degree...

L: mm-Th. bt_-,, LJSQ7

R: 4/~3d/ .A I was a nonconformist, too.But I, I, I-sympathize

with nonconformists, yes.

L: I do, too.

Ri Now did he, uh, come from, uh, a family of farmers, or tradesman, or...?

L: Yes, farmers.

R: Farmers, I see. And did he have a big family?

L: Uh, no. He had a, a, a sister who never married, and a brother younger

than he who was killed in a chemistry lab explosion.

R: Oh my goodness!

L: And, ah, a younger sister who died when she was a small child, with diph-

^g theria. So, his fa- you know, just petered out. He has a son, Winston Jr.,

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little CMrs. Winston)

Li our son, But he. has never married, so...

R: Yes, I see, uh-huh. So he came from Brookhaven, he went to Mississippi

College, which is in Raymond, Mississippi, just really a suburb of

Jackson now-

L: Yes, =m-hm.

R: and then to the University of Chicago,where he got his master's in


L: UhIf[nui.

R: -and many many courses toward the, ur, doctorate.

He went back every summer.

R: And then how did he happen to come to the University of Florida?

L: He came from St. Petersburg.

R: Where he had been principal.

L: Uh, Winston had a fabulous mind, and he was teaching there while he was

still in college. And he went to Arcadia as principal in 1914 ...and he

was just out of college.

R: Arcadia, Florida.

L; Yes, mm-hm. And, uh, he--I wish Winston had written 4S H c i C

because he has an inexhaustable source of S.pr'e-- about his trip

on the train down there into south Florida which was nothing then, you know,

in 1914. The railroad was the only way of getting down there, just sand

roads with some _M_-.-palmettos and pines, and just, you know... uh, there

were nice communities once you got there, but transportation was something

Uf83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: else.

R: A real frontier.

L: Mm-hm. And he went-- he was there in Arcadia until he, uh, was in the

service, in 1917...

R: Now about what year would that have been that he came to Florida?

L: In 1914. Yes. And he volunteered for the service in 1917.

R: Uh-huh.

L: And during training, he and Spessard Holland seshazi were roommates.

'. :And uird;Q,'na- ~he'ed4.-r -oaf--he '** tlbone who later became the

editor of the aa Atlanta Constitutions, but I've forgotten

his name...

Anyway, Winston, uh, ', experiences were

R: Just a minute, now, he was a roommate of Spessard Holland who later

became a Senator of Florida, and also a roommate of the, uh, man who

became the editor of The Atlanta Constitution~?

L: Uh-huh!

R: We'll fill in, I know his name quite well.

L: I think it's Patterson, is it Pattersonthat ?_

R: No, you're think--...well, no not quite, uh-uh.

L: No... no, no I don't know who it was, I've forgotten who it was...uh...

well, anyway--

R: They were all roommates, uh, in--

L: In training.

R: In training.

L: Yep, mm-hm.

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: At Fort Bragg or somewhere like that?

L: Cigh) No

R: Or maybe there wasn't any Fort Bragg at that time.

L: He was in, in uh, in training in New Jersey at one time, .. *W Ct ?

R: Well now did he go abroad in the First World War?

L: Oh yes! Oh yes, he was over there for many months and even months after

the war he was over there.

R: In what capacity?

L: Well he was a captain, but he was commanding a battery. And ,e had

really fantastic experiences in the war, and, those experiences meant

a great deal to him, and...

R: Yes.

L: L..think he really felt that...

R: Yes.

L: ...or he, he grew into the person he was because of all those experiences--

R: I see.

L: --in the war, and commanding, uh...

R: Troops, uh-huh.

L: Troops in the war. So, uh, that was......uh, I wish he had written all

R: of this down, he had them in his notebook, all his stories.

R: I wish he had.

L: But... they're gone. ,I

R: So when you came here to work for him as his secretary, having recently


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: learned to type, um, you were uh a brilliant girl from Mississippi

used to going out socially and uh, um,... So if you had, if you wanted

to go out to lunch, you just stayed out a little later and he took

that very well.

L: Yes, uh-huh.

R: Because, by this time he must have been romantically interested in you,


L: Well, I guess so, but I didn't realize what was happening until the end

of the summer. I knew--

R: He was--

L: I thoroughly enjoyed being with him--

R: He was not a confirmed bachelor, then!

1: I guess not. But he was old enough to be!

R: laughter

L: Taughterl I thought he was, you know, it didn't occur to me that there

was any danger there! laughter

R: Iaughter

L: But, anyway, by the end of the summer I was totally, absolutely,...

completely in love with the man. You know.

R: Had you ever been--

L: J }C 7_

4: H4d you ever been in love before?

L: Yes, I had 'bq. --


27 Mayhew


INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: I see.

L. -"- \ seemed very sophomoric to me--

R: I see.

L: --in comparison with this one...

R: I see, uh huh, yes!

L: And uh...Oh! I was just, you know, in the... pain and ecstasy of love

by that time--

R: Mm-hm.

L: --and so, when somebody, in makinaup the budget,discovered that here I

was on the payroll and I wasn't from Florida, and there just was no

place for me... there..I..Still no money, you know, this was still


R: Mm-hm, yes.

L: --and, uh, they were saving what money there was for Florida people.


R: Oh, you mean to say that as a secretary of a professor here, you had to

be from Florida?

L: Yes, uh-huh!

R: My gracious!

L: So, um.., I rea--I was not--I was disappointed, but, because I thoroughly

enjoy being here. I didn't tell you that Elizabeth Lynch, and Hazel Maury,

who was the sister of Alton Maury--did you know Alton Maury?



INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: Oh, yes, but I thought Hazel was his wife--is his wife!

L: Uh,... i i I'm sorry, Alice Maury,--

R: Alice is,yes.

L: Not Hazel, I'm sorry, Alice Maury

R: She's his kid sister.

L: Mm-hm. Alice and,; and um, Elizabeth and I took a little house, rented

a little house over here...oh, in one of these little back streets not

far from the campus--

R: Uh-hnh.

L: I've forgotten the name of that street now.

R: Well now you actually were on the payroll at first, right?

L: Oh yes, uh-huh.

R: I see.

L: Mm-hm, yeah. But then it Ar C, --

R: But it didn't last.
L: --for the w +t w^' Son
L: --for the F0I (_ pgoea. N So, uh, one of Winston's tasks in the

College of Education had been to be the head of the Placement Bureaur-

L: --see. But this was by the middle of October, and most places were filled.

But he did find a place for me as a teacher in west Florida.

R: Mm-hm.

L: Don't ask me the name of the place 'cause I don't want to give it. I've

always felt I owed the state money that they paid me as a teacher, because

of what I did, the struggle with discipline. \ had never met people like

those west Florida people.

Uf83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


R: Pretty rough. ect

L: Pretty rough? Their idea of reading a book was to read ______

R: Yes.

L: -- a Wild West comic book. That was just all the reading that anybody

ever did. And...

R: That was a terrible fate.

L: And the principal was a sweet little man, but totally ineffectual.

R: Mm-hm.

L: Scared to death of the people.

R: Mm-hm.

L: And by the time I got there in the middle of October, they had driven away

already three English teachers.

R: Oh, Anne.

L: And they did it-- the last one, they had locked her in the room and thrown

erasers at her.

R: This was like going to the battle front yourself.

L: It was! And I just, you know, I'd never seen people like this. I'd never

had any contact--in the first place, I didn't know anything about teaching,

and in the second place, I didn't know anything about dealing with people

like that--so, I struggled. At least they didn't drive me away, I struggled

all that year. And I really tried and I think I may have, uh, planted a

little seed in some peoples' minds, but I really... But at seventy dollars

a month, after all...I don't guess I owed them too much.

R: No! I think they owed you.

L: But anyway, that was an experience, it4af really was,


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: Yes.

L: And, then the next summer I went home,and we, Winston and I were married

in August of the next summer.

R: And so you were rescued from a terrible fate.

L: Yes, mm-hm.

_Dzg_ from the frying pan into the fire! laughter But anyway we were--

R: Now haw much older was ,Winston than youk Anne?

L: Uh, twenty-two years.

R: Twenty-two years.

L: I've always been ahead of myself in that I've always done things ahead of

everybody else. Now everybody young marries somebodyold, but at the time

I did it, nobody married a person older than herself, and uh...So, I was


R: Not that much older, anyway.

L: Hm-mm, yes.

R: Uh-huh.

L: But,uh...

R: Well, anyway, it sounds as though it was a happy marriage.

L: Mm-hm.

R: Of course, I don't think that all marriages are completely happy, there

are always problems, but uh, you were the kind of woman that could take

on problems, I would say. Any way,Iwhen were your children born?

L: Immediately! laughter)

R: Immediately! As soon as possible! laughter

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


R: And the first one was a girl.

L: Uh-huh, Joanne, and she was born--we were married in, in, ah, August

of, um, 'Thirty-six.

R: Now spell Joanne's name for us, she puts it together.

L: Yes, she does. J-o-a-n-n-e.

R: Yes.

L: And she is married now to Clayton Morley, and they live in Houston.

R: Mm-hm.

L: But anyway, Joanne was born, uh, in September of 'Thirty-seven, and

Winston,Jr. was born in September of 'Thirty-eight.

R: I see.

L: So you see I was a busy person, and this is one reason I don't remember

any more than I do about the early years of University College--

R: Well, of course you don't!

L: --because I was so overwhelmed with my own personal -

R: You were changing diapers all that time.

L: I was!

R: Yes...

L: Oh, oh! That reminds me, let me tell you...You want me to tell you about

some of the people who-- we, we built an ap--...

R: An apartment house.

L: ... an apartment house--Winston built an apartment house 1 -

so that we could move into it-- and the first people who lived in the apart-

ment house-- there were four parts: we were in one, the J. Wayne Reitz'

were in another--


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs.WinstonW.)


R: Mm-hm.

L: -- the the Byron Culpeppers--and he was later to be the chancellor--

R, Yes.

L: -- of our...Florida,...I'm getting on my )- V~ --of the Florida

Regents L A OVS -f And, un, the first one was Dr. Germond,

a batchelor, and a very distinguished and eminent mathematician.

R: Dr. Jim who? a Ir

L: Dr. Germond, G-e-r-m-o-n-d. 4C A6ef* ( rmncv6J

R: Mm-hm.

L: He left during the war- years--

R: I see.

L: --for Washington and had a very distinguished career. Uh, but anyway, uh

those were pretty--that was pretty good...

R: Pretty good way to start off?

L: Pretty good collection of people, yes.

R: Pretty good tenants, huh?

L: Uh-huh! And we were theke, and,uh..,oh, in the next summer, I guess it was,

Wayne, who was just a professor in...no, I don't know if he--no, he wasn't

even a professor, he was an assistant professor-- in the College of

Agriculture, at that time...

R: I believe he came in 'Thirty-eight?

L: He came back.

R: I see. Yes.

L: Um, he had been here earlier, and see he went away for school and went back

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: I see.

L: --two or three times. Anyway, uh--well this was the fall of 'Thirty- Six

that we were there.

R: I see.

L: Wayne came to Winston, he said, "Well,uh, Dean Little, I guess --Mr.

Little, I guess that we will have to move out of this __ house

now because Frances is expecting a baby this fall." And Winston said,

"Well, not unless we move out too, because we're expectiinalso!" And, just

a few days later, C)uL Culpepper came and said, "Now, what about

this, Mr. Little? Uh, Betty is expecting a baby!" And so, ., r r

Reitz was born one Friday, Joanne was born the next Friday, and Brad Cul-

pepper was born the next month. And Dr. Germond said he thought he was

living in the maternity ward. laughter

R: laughter He was a batchelor!

L: Later, the J.C. Dickinsons moved in one of the apartments)at the 1Wi-

R: Mm-hm.

L: But, anyway, it was an interesting group of people there in those apartments.

R: Yes, it was. Who all became very distinguished in the history of this


L: Now where were we? I've forgotten now where we were.

R: Well now, is this an appropriate time to tell us about some of the organiza-

tion of, uh, Universtiy College,which of course we have been researching

a little bit in preparation for this? Uh, what was the, the philosophy

of University College? You say Dean Matherly was the first dean.

L: Mm-hm.

R: And you, I think you told me that Dr, Tigert said Winston was the best

UF83A Mayhew


R: philosopher of education he had known. Was it Winston's idea, uh, or

Dean Matherly's idea, or did they get together on it?

L: No, it was not Dean Matherly's idea at all. Uh, but he was, um... very

cooperative and very helpful and very pres-he was much more prestigious

than Winston was.

R: L t\M\

L: Uh, and he served as the first dean, and that was very good for the

college because I'm sure he gained much more recognition for it than a


R: What was his position of--

L: He was the Dean of Business Administration.

R: Yes, now did he, did he serve in the capacity--two deans, or did he give

up Business Administration to become the dean of University College?

L: Emily, I don't remember that, isn't thatsraWFt don't remember.

R: We'll have to look that up, mm-hm.

L: Um, he may have served jointly, but I don't think so, because he had his


R: Well I had always assumed that Winston Little was the first dean.

L: No, it was Winston who was...who was the educational philosopher. And

Dr. Tigert did say in a group of people that he considered him the, the

greatest educational philosopher that he had ever known.

R: Now, this is...oh, a few years before Harvard became so interested in the

general education--


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: Yes, Harvard f almost copied verbatim the plans from


R: I see.

L: The head, then,...ah,experimental, um, general education, uh, college is

set up at Chicago and at Minnesota.

R: Mm-hm.

L: But Florida, was the third one.

R: I see.

L: And it was not exactly like either of the others. It was Dr. Tigert's idea

to do this for Florida, and one, one of the reasons--I have found this

scrapbook that Elizabeth Lynch had put together. Uh, and it's the very

beginning of it, and it's very good. This is an, an article that Dr. Tigert

wrote for the New York Times, Sunday, July the fourteenth, 'Thirty-five.

And, uh, this is early publicity about the college. But the idea was,

and he says in here...uh, at that time, all over this countryk-in Florida

and in the rest of the country as well--uh, fifty percent of the beginning

students dropped out of college by the end of their sophomore year. And

only a third of those who started actually graduated. And he felt that

those people should be provided with some education. At that time,

if you went to college, you could just choose a little...uh, course here

and a course there and just flit through the catalogue and take whatever

you wanted to, and you could end with really nothing to show for the time

you had spent here, because nothing was integrated in any way.


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: Yes.

L: Uh, and it was this multiplicity of choices without guidance--

R: Mm-hm.

L: --uh, that he was trying to overcome. Another thing was, that--he

felt that people specialized too soon, they had an idea of what they

wanted to do, and they came and took only courses in that specialization,

and left college without really an education. They were..

R: They had--

L: They knew a great deal about one thing..

R: --just a vocation, not an education.

L: Mm-hm. So those were the, uh, ideas underlying the philosophy. And, um...

I think ... to me--this is my own idea, I've never heard anybody else

say it-but, I think that the people who, in Florida, the thousands of people

by now, who've gone through the General College and University College,

as it was later called, have a common frame of reference.

R: Yes.

L: You know? And this is a wonderful experience in the United States, because

we have no national theater, we have no national dances that everybody

participates in,--

R: Right.

L: --we have no national, uh...

R: We have--

L: traditions like that.

R: We have no royal family.

L: Mm-hm, we have nothing to pull us together. But all of these people

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

L: have survived the "C" coursesI

R: Right.

L: And, if somebody mentions a particular sort of thing, they can refer to


R: Yes.

L; And I think that's a great contribution to Florida, uh...

R: Well, at this point, let's just give the names of those original courses.

Uh, the names were altered a little bit as time went on, but they were

first called, as you will remember:

L: Uh, they were: Man in the Social World, and the first chairman of that

was Rolland Ackwood and later Bill Caulkin;

R: Yes.

L: Man in the Physical World, and Dr. Leonard Gavin was the chairman;

R: Right.

L: Reading, Speaking, Writing--that was Jacob I______ as the


R: Yes.

L: Man and His Thinking--that was a half-year course, and Winston was the

chairman of that, and taught that for years, he loved it.

R: Yes.

L: And they wrote a logic book, from which I still get a little bit of work--

R: It was Logic in Basic Mathematics.

L: Uh-huh, a half-year of logic and a half-year of general mathematics, and

to tell you the truth, I do not know, I'm sorry, who was the chairman of

the mathematics. I should know that, but I've forgotten.

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


R; Well, I think it all went together. I mean, the department had a

chairman and it was Winston Little and I think it uh, anyone who taught

it was teaching both the first semester and the second semester.

L: Yes, I think so. I don't know,I don't really remember.

R: R: Uh-huh, right.

L: As I said, I was so concerned with myself and my two babies that I...

R' And then the last department was:

L: All those were required the first freshman year, and then the second year,

you were required to take the humanities,...

R: Yes, which covered:

"hk TA-ertf-rev- Dh iln h r

Art, Music...


The humanistic system.

Yes, yes.

Um, and Dr. Jimmy Gunn--do you remember Jimmy?

Oh, yes indeed!

Colorful person! Interesting person--

A historian.

Uh-huh! And he was the first chairman, and then,uh, later,



Bob Davidson

n^ C6C^XLk zI I'\ A
L: ...and was the chairman. d RB hen-The Biological World, ( /

And then beyond those two required courses, they could then begin to

elect the courses they wanted.

R: Right. And that carried them through the freshman and sophomore years.



UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. WinstonW.)


L: Uh-huh. And after that, you see, they were OS6 TAr tL' \ Cf [l.

R: And if they had to drop out then, at the end of their sophomore year,

they had a firm foundation in general education.

L; They had! Uh, and. also, Winston thought, that they--it was a shame for

people to come and choose a field without being exposed to all of these

other areas of learning--

R: Yes.

L: --that they might find, uh, they much preferred...you know, but it had

never been expo--they had never been exposed to it before. So it was

an eye-opening experience, to let people have an idea of the fields of

knowledge that were available to them.

R: Right.

L: I, I think it was a wonderful philosophy, I really do.

R: I've always believed in it, and that's why I enjoyed teaching in the

college for fifteen years,yes.
L: Well, there were so many good all through the years. We've been trying
to think of certain ones that stand in our memory--there's been so

many, you know, it's hard to name them-- but--

R: Well, from the Sociology Department we had Winston W. Imond, who was an

anthropologist with a Ph.D. from Yale, and we had" John Miller McGloughlin,

who was a sociologist with a Ph.D. from the University of North Carolina;

I know we had those two from Sociology. And, uh, we had many, many

others-now I don't think at first that William Carleton was a professor

in th 1 college, but he came into it later...and, uh, became the chairman

of what later-of Man in the Social World, which later became, uh, Ameri-

UP83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


R: can Institutions, or "C- one", as all the freshman called it.

L: Yes, we A5\k be naming these "C-one" and "C-two", A4t4C C-e4 rc ':

R: And the Carleton Building was later named for him, and then, the tall

building next to Carleton Auditorium was named for your husband, Winston

Little, and it sits right behind Tigert Hall. Now the University College,

we might say at this point, has recently been abolished.

L: Yes.

R: It had many struggles throughout the years--

L: Oh yes, i4twas always 9 0 ; i____ from the very beginning

because, for one thing, the deans of the other colleges didn't want to

give up their students--

R: Right.

L: --you know, they wanted as many enrolled in their colleges as they could,
that was one opposition. Others objected very much philosophical grounds,

they just didn't believe fi v ( 1 -~-P~'

R: Well, it was a competition for funds, and it was a competition for students--

L: Mm-hm. Right, and a difference in philosophy, but uh...I think it was a

good thing, maybe it was time for it to be abolished, I think it's not

very--hasn't been for a number of years the kind of college that Winston

envisioned at the beginning. So maybe it's fulfilled its function, but

I do think that it did contribute a great deal to the history of education

in Florida.

R: As I recall it, in University College we were always very careful not to

have huge classes of two and three hundred students. Of.course, the Uni-

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: versity was small then and we didn't have a very huge. enrollment, but we

tried to keep the class sections down to, say, twenty-five to thirty-five,

and then the students went to these big lecture sessions where they did

have big audiences 1P1 -n1V dfsussion' ted toeep "it small.

L: Mm-hm. And also'the' students had access to counselors. Counseling was

a very--

R: Right.

L: --important part of the thing. There were whole batteries of counselors--

--available to the students, so that they wouldn't feel too--

R: Made it much more personal.

L: iSo0 ti- mm-hm. Anyway, it's gone now and... maybe it's all

for the best, I don't know. But anyway, I--I think,uh, that it...contri-

buted a great deallthrough the years on the faculty of University College

R:c Al right. O

L: ee tha..., .Wd waste the most widely known, wouldn't you think?

R: Yes, he was a fellow graduate student with us at Chapel Hill and he was

the one who persuaded us to come to this university, because he talked

so enthusiastically about University College .
L: Mm-hm. Um, Dr. Hans Brook--I don't know .:.* remember him or not, but

he was one of the great scholars-- and when I say "scholar", I mean a

humanistic kind of person a kind of Renaissance Man--

R: Yes.

L: --actually. Um, he really was an interesting person, I don't know whether

ypu remember him or not.


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

R: Vaguely, yes.

L: Charles Murphree ?

R: Oh, yes'

L: Uh, Fred C4Bc r

R: He played the organ and belonged to the, to the | of the

former president of the university.

L:i Because EloU iL-#Murphree was for many, many years in the English


R: They were cousins, uh-huh.

L: Uh...Tom Hall?

R: Yes.

L: Art Funk?

R: And they're still living and still here.

L: Yes, mm-hm. Ed Carpenter and Fred Getirff Mt -_ C____ .

R: But Fred Bgcoming back Oto -cite .

L: Um, Ed ?rinc .

R: Yes, who recently died.

L: Yes. John \ )

R: Who's still with us.
L: Yes. George Bentley...

R: Who's still living and became, later on, the associate dean of the college.

L: Mm-hm. Um,um...Emma Cricket, who was head of the- uh, Examin--Examining


R: Well now was Franklin Dougherty here then, or did he come later?

L: Well,...yes, he was here--I don't know if at the beginning or not, but he

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


came later--

Was in the History Department--

and then he was--uh-huh--one of the deans.

He became Dean later,yes.

Uh-huh. And uh...Ernest Cox, Dr. Ernest Cox...

Still with us, who also became one of the deans of the college.

Not of the University College, but of the Arts and Sciences.

Arts and Sciences, yes,uh-huh.

Um, Malcolm McCloud,,. Bob o But then he lived out on

the lake--I didn't, we didn't get this far til we were in the apartment

house and buying this place out at the lake


When Winston Jr. was just just a year-and-a-half old. We moved out there

because the apartment was too small for two babies.


And we found a beautiful place on the lake. The little house was very
small,public (l so we did the best we could do. But the loca-

tion was just beautiful. It was up on a ridge that looked three hundred

feet down.

Yes, I-

I'll never forget the lake.

Yes, I remember being there.

And the sandy beach and all that Winston worked on. It was a lovely place

and a grand place for the children to grow up.

Well why don't--yes.

But uh-- started in on that J


s ...


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


L: Oh, the parties--the Humanities Department, particularly, liked to have

parties, and it was a wonderful place: our living room was a great big

square room with glass all over it. In fact, all that front wall that

looked out on the lake was glass. And I had that--when we did the house

over--I had them put in what was the first picture window in Florida, as

far as I know. I had seen them pictured in House Beautiful IAAA./A.. .

and when I started asking for them, the builders didn't know what I was

talking about.

R: Picture.,windows.

L: A picture window. But they followed my instructions, and they put it in,

and I don't know of anybody else who had a picture window..

R: MM-hm.

L: For awhile.

R: But that was the ideal place to put a picture window.

L: Uh-huh, it was. It nearly drove the painter mad, because I wanted that,uh,

--blues, the blue room room with the white woodwork. And Winston kept tell-

ing the painter, "Match the lake! Match the lake!" And the painter would

say, "But Mr. Little, the lake changes every minute!"

R: Yes. I

L: Jaa-wea crazy, but he finally got it done.

R: This was Lake Santa Fe.

L: Uh-huh.

R: Yeah.





Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

Emily Ring

L: Well, anyway, the Humanities, uh group would come out there for parties,

and it was such a good place to entertain, because the acoustics in that

room were so good for music. Somebody, I can't remember who, would play

the piano...somebody wouldtA y AI < acA A/sf. .. But, anyway--

R: Would it have been David Striker?

L: It--might have been David Striker, probably was David Striker.

R: Yes! Yes!

L: Oh, and then Bob Carleton brought his viola--

R: Oh, yes...

L: --and would play, and everybody would stand around and sing, and John (OL )

-,t ',R LL _, and Tom-- a number of them had good voices.

R: Yes.

L: And, uh... we would just have the best parties out there. And when aark
Cerr s+'t -t
ZaHl *marbegan his drawing...

R; Oh, yes.
L: .) t- CY1 1 V ( kC ., and one of his first things was

a very good pencil sketch of our old barn and big old myrtle tree that was

a big olda-jwri-y sort of thing.

R: Was that in oil, or was it in--

L: No, it was a--

R: --watercolor?

L: --pencil sketch.

R: Pencil sketch

L: Pencil sketch, uh -huh., and he gave me that picture and I had it over the,
the mantel-piecel\for many, many years. But when we sold the place, seems


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


L: that we sold it furnished, and 4 Sr that that picture

belonged )1u and I left it, and Oalways regretted

it, because they never would give it back to me, I've offered to buy it,

and I've wanted that picture always and I never could get it back 'k__

Anyway, we, webought that place for about 15,000, we sold it for about
20--something thousand, and the next t was sold, I heard that they were--the

asking price was 150,000.

R: I don't doubt it.'How many acres was that?

L: 7Ae / over sixty acresJ ^^ f .

R: Yes. Well now was it sold with all sixty acres the last time?

L: No, because--

R: It had-

L: --part of it had already been sold,--

R: Had already been sold! And yet--

L: --and then came Mr. Longneck and all of his blueberries that are so famous


R: And so what was left? The house and what was left must have brought about


L: Uh-huh.

R: Well, that's typical of land values around here.

L: Well, it really was a beautiful little place, and an especially good pl

place for the children to grow up, and for their friends to come,:.'t er

CiCLz5 all loved to come up, and not only for swimming, but all that space

to play in, and q ) J- ou could r.,xa o, > - -


UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


R: Well,it meant that you had to have two cars in the family, of course,

and what did you do about that during the ea of the Second World War

when gas was rationed?

L: Um...

R: Was that when you had to move back into town?

L: Yes, mm-hm.

R: Yes.

L: And Winston went back into the service.

R: ...Oh, I had forgotten that. 0

L: Yes, he did. But, uh, Dr. a ,_____ ,hu ti rld

General Lewis, was a friend of his p2

neede&-sdoeeona-g- / S, a ,g ,'.. J^x.4 1>/rct_ C

____ ____ __ __ VP-0__.1 I don't know, ten 'mnatrs, maybe...

R: Yes, right... Then, um, when you came back to Gainesville, where did you

live? Did you build this house then?
L: No. Nope, we still had/the apartment house and the place at the lake and

we tried time and time again-- but, anyw--I was getting so weary the chil-

dren were just } A )o C7V)/i, and I would have to come in

at noon for the one in kindergarten, Marilyn, and then the other three h

had Cub Scouts or Girl Scouts, or dance lessons.or...

R: Now that was a drive!

L: Little League, or...

R: My goodness! That was a drive that took about how long each time?

L: Well, it took...

R: Twenty or twenty-five minutes!

UF83A Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


L: Yes,uh-huhl So I was just frantic, I, I told them u t-tse-b pushing

we didAsomething about it because it was too

strenuous for the men.

R: Yes.
L: ASo we bought this house, moved in here the fall of '51.

R: Do you remember who you bought it from?

L: Yes, Mrs. Howell; Dr. and Mrs. Howell had come here in'49 and built the

house, and in fact, he had retired from\practice and they expected to

spend the rest of their lives here, but he died of a heart attack.

R: I see.

L: And she wanted to go back up to Peoria, where her people were--

R: He was a medical doctor--

L: Mm-hm.

R: I see.

L: So, she sold the house, and we bought it.

R: Now was Dr. Daller living next door at the time you bought it?

L: No, that was an empty lot, aid then the Humphries built that house-- I

don't know if you remember the Humphries: Freddy, Gladys...

R: Yes,oh I had forgotten,them, now I do remember, yes, uh-huh!

L: __- I think Lt -- *

R: Now were the Durrances across the street?

L: Yes, and the Whites as well. And the George Hearsts were there--

R: George and Elizabeth Hearst...

L: Yes.

R: On the curve.


INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little .(Mrs. Winston W.)


L: Uh-huh...and then Charles Detler and Kathryn, c1 -' co(r__

R: Uh-huh.

L: ] \h T SweeneyC M APV

R: Well now, when did the Webers come in? ... the Irving Webers-- they were

here a very short time on this block.

L: That was early...

R: Uh-huh.

L: ...I don't know just when....I....

R; But I remember, didn't you have--

L: And then the Aliens lived there--

R: Yes! the Aliens, the John Allens--

L: John and Grace Allen--

R: --who later became the acting president. Well, as I recall it, the

neighborhood \used to have parties h~e, was it Christmas?

L: Yes--

R: A neighborhood party, uh-huh.

L: We don't do that anymore, though.

R: ...And then later on Dr. Mandal, the chairman of the Political Science

Department, and his mother bought the country house next door,

in the curve.

L: Mm-hm.

R: All right... so now you're back in Gainesville, and you bought this

house, and the children have many activities, and you have become very

active in club work here in Gainesville. Tell us about your years of,

50 Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


R: uh, in University Women's Club, the Gainesville Women's Club, and

Garden Club, and... et cetera, Anne!

L: Okay.

R: The Organization Lady!

L: Oh, I didn't.. you know, when I graduated from college and came down

here was this 4 ~-, there were these seminar meetings off the

bat, with all of these very famous educators and --_P_';_ men

and all, it was heavy stuff for me, and I expected to have an intel-

lectual type life, you know, in the books--

R: Yes,yes.

L: Well, I've been anything but, and I never would have pictured myself

with the life I've, I have, that has evolved, but anyway, it's been

a good life.

I was President of the University Women's Club in'Forty-Six and


R: Now that was the year that they built the clubhouse, wasn't it?

L: No, .If. 1 4 f

R: We haven't gotten there yet.

L: This is University Women's Club.

R: University Women's Club,uh-huh.

L: But we met then in the old Student Union building upstairs, you know?

R: Yes.

L: In, uh, not Bryan Hall, but the room that adjoined it, and uh...

R: Yes.

L: This is when you went in full regalia, you know.

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.) Mayhew


R: Oh yes, hats and gloves.

L: Dressed to the hilt, hats and gloves. And I still have people tell me,

"Oh, I still remember those hats you used to wear, those gorgeous hats

you used to wear." Well, Mrs. McCormick used to make my hats-- you

remember Mrs. McCormick--

R: Yes!

L: she had a little ._\ ___ _j _ _f__ r_-_

R: And her partner. who was her partner? in the hat shop, she had her

two ladies in the hat shop--

L: That was her sister.

R: Yes.

L: But Mrs. McCormickmade the hats, and some of them were--really creations!

R: Do you still have some of them?

L: Yes, I do!

R: Yes...

L: IN fact, I want to give a collection of hats to the museum if they'll

take them, I don't know--

R: Yes, of course they will.

L: Anyway, then, in ah, 'Sixty-one--'Sixty-three, I was President of

Gainesville Women's Club, and that was a wonderful experience,'because

I had the privilege of being the president the first two years in the

Women's Clubhouse. I was on the Building Committee, and then I was

the president those two years.

R: Yes.

L: And, uh, that also was a growing experience, it really was.

52 Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


L: It was also very demanding--I just kind of spent my life either there

at the Clubhouse or on the telephone here arranging things about it.

And if I left the house, my car just automatically turned toward the

Women's Club! I gave two years of my life to it, but it was worth it,

I think.

R: Of course it was.

L: And then in 'Seventy-six to 'Seventy-seven I was president of the
Foundation for the Commercial Music, and I enjoyed thatpvery much,

although I'm not a musician, and make no pretense to be, I do love

music,'and-I was glad to give that support to what other people enjoy...

R: Is that the one that Bernice t C ) is the founding mother of?

L: Mm-hm, yeah. It was founded in memory of Betsy Smith.

R: Yes, who was a piano teacher who was murdered.

L: Yes. Um, maybe the biggest job that I've had, the most demand job,

uh, that I've done is I was State Chairman, I was Chairman fr the State

Convention for the ft 0 that was
herein, in Gainesville in 1970. And that took two years,%)Sat least

a full year of preparation.

R: Well: now, Anne, maybe you'd better tell us what the PEO is.

L: Well, it's a, kind of a,,it's a sisterhood. It's a kind of an adult

sorority, I guess.

R: I see.

L: Educational, philanthropic.

R: Yes.
b ll
L: That was a Achallenge, too, to be State Chairman for that, and I enjoyed

53 Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


L: that very much.

R: Mm-hm.

L: But I have worked -- I've dibbled and dabbled my life away, I sometimes

think--but I have worked in a lot of organizations here in Gainesville.

I've been in AA W, and o IP& (l'fLAc, and the League of

Women Voters...and the Gainesville Garden Club...

R: The old Fine Arts Association? Were you ever in that?

L: No, I wasn't in that, no, I never was in that.

Uh, of course with the Methodist Church and the Women's Society

and the PTA, and uh, the DAR...uh but, I don't know, in all of those

I've just helped where it was necessary, no really long-term, construc-

tive job, the sort of thing to get you a service award or anything like

that, it's just kind of, you know, SOS help.

R: Now about your church affiliation, were you Meth-- did you grow up Meth-

odist in Mississippi?

L: I was a Baptist in Georgia, northern Alabama.

R: In Georgia, I see.

L: But when we moved to Mississippi, she and I went with Daddy and my brother

to the Methodist church.

R: I see.

L: So that we'd all be together.

R: Well now was Winston a member of the Methodist church?

L: Uh-huh, yes he was. Then I went to a Presbyterian college, Agnes Scott,

and I loved the Episcopal service, so I grew up with kind of an ecumeni-


R: Yes.



INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W,)


L: But anyway, I worked with all of those different organizations and

things...you might name it, I worked with them a little bit...

R: Uh-huh... Now did you ever go back to the University and take some

courses'just for fun?

L: Um, I enrolled twice, and each time something happened. The first time,

my mother was ill many times, and I had to go with her and so I went

to two-I was with Walter Perdle in Shakespeare class, and I was really

very disappointed not to be able to carry that through. But, I had to

be there several weeks, and it was just... And then another time,

I've forgotten what happened then--but you know, Winston was ill, off

and on, for about fourteen or fifteen years.And I just--

R: You mean--

L: --couldn't tie myself up--

R: --preceding his death?

L: Yes, mm-hm.

R: Well do you think that this was, to some degree, the results of his,um,

being in the First World War, or...?

L: No.-- g_______ .

g: You don't think so, no.

L: Um--he hda ver sensitive system and he had a blood clot, and it went

to ( ) / j '' C and he had an operation there

but-- the Walter Hamen kind of operation, they called it...

R: Walter Hanen?

L: Vena cava operation, and all kinds of complications after-- his legs

were swollen ...oh, they looked like elephant legs...

55 Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


R: Oh, dear.

L: And this was the weel-- I spent ~L Uek over there that were

the most...I guess the worst...the worst of my life.

R: Now where -- where-- ^Qjl

L: This was in the old i ___ out there.

R: In New Orleans.

L: Uh-huh.

R: Uh-huh.

L: Now they have a beautiful new hospital And

he went there another time--he went there many times.--

R: I see.

L: --off and on, and he finally died there.

R: The blood clot was in his leg.

L: Mm-hm.

R And they couldn't take it out, or stabilize it, or...?

L: I think somebody else would have WCUL(( (ijro c .

/\ 7> '..-. -- ; I don't know if it's a sweet thing

to say or not, Maybe not--

R: Perhaps--

L: --but even if someone else might have, he never would. He never would,

He'd never let, have that old railroad accident, he wouldn't see the

railroad bert.

R: Well tell us about.his ac--tell us about the accident with the railroad,

56 Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)


L: Well he was coming in from the lake one, uh...cold, misty morning.

And, uh, had the windows closed and it was very foggy. And the train
hit him, and he was thrown from the carAabout thirty-five feet, and

the car was totaled. They didn't even want the scraps. It was _/___'_,_

R: Now what year was that, Anne?

L: Oh, my goodness! I wish you hadn't asked me that. It must have been

about 'Forty-seven, I think.

R: Yes.

L: Yes, around in there.

R: Well, um, did they have--they didn't have any signal lights at that

crossing then?

L: No.

R: Uh-huh, I see. And they probably blew the horn, but the windows being

up, he didn't hear.

L: Mm-hm.

R: I see. Well, do you think that his blood clot later on was perhaps a

result of that accident?

L: No, *_ _ 1 _

R: They didn't think--no way of knowing, I see. So was--he was in the

hospital a long time with that then, wasn't he?

L: Yes, many many weeks.

R: I see.

L: Oh, that was an awful experience. And he had so many close calls--

57 Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little-(Mrs. Winston W.)


L: He--and I've said, I've said many times you know I've said before,

seeing what my life would be like, I guess I should have C77 7/ t

J-)Sgp w-ci hr '' hu^ 4, Ut i ,zM( P Ar,
AK$FP -1------ --
been very useful to me. But with my mother and with Winston, both of

them being subject to so many, many attacks of illness...but I myself
have been'blessed with, uh...healthy.

R: Well, you look in the pink of health to me. And I think that you're

the sort of optimistic ;lAjl^, woman who can handle these sorrows in

life better than most people can.

Um, well now, Anne, do you want to tell us something about the

development of your children, and uh, now you have some beautiful grand-


L: I'd love to tell you about my childrenI I was--

: p*l- 3' Lg- v -b e.... children!

L: Yes I said /A t4A- -- I'd dibbled and dabbled my life away, the
A I guess,
only concrete I have to show for/iti s my children,--

R: Why, yesI

L: --and I'm very proud of them.

R: Yes.

L: Joanne was born in 'Thirty...-seven, TJeteve. And, um, she has a

beautiful mezzo-soprano singing voice, and she sings in a very good

choir in Houston. And her husband, Clayton Mills, is with Prudential,

he's an investment analyst with Prudential, and he's the Regional

Treasurer now, ( Pr_ __ia ,

R: A big job.

58 Mayhew

INTERVIEWEE: Anne Little (Mrs, Winston W.)


L: And they have three handsome, bright, darling, bad kids.

R: Mm-hm.

L: So.

R: Yes.

L: Uh... Clayton, Jr., who is thirteen now, and John, even, and Bruce,

nine. And I have just spent Christmas with themA thoroughly enjoyed


R: Wonderful!

L: I got cute letters from them, thanking me for their gifts, they're just

darling children--

R: What do they call you, Anne?

L: Grandmommy. And,uh, each of them had come down by himself in the sum-

mertime to visit me,, and that was a great experience for both of us.

R: Uh-huh.

L: Clayton did it first. He came when he was seven, and came on that pl

plane by himself and walked off it, as if he had owned it, you know,

4O' tA. :> ;_ he did it every day, you'd think,

the way he walked off it!

R: Yes.

L: Uh, and so each of them has done it since then, and I thoroughly enjoy
that. And, h, Marilyn is married to George Tubb, who is a young

attorney here with Jenkins and Tubb.

R: I see.




Anne Little (Mrs. Winston W.)

Emily Ring

L: And,um, they live out on Ninety-Fourth Street, and they have a little

girl, JPMiV C\&. She will be three in May.

R: And you said that Marilyn is expecting again now?

L: Mm-hm, in May.

R: Right, uh-huh.

L: And Marilyn is very, very active in everything. She's the President-

elect of Friends of I t I don't know how she'll do

it, but we'll see.She's in Junior League, she's in PEO, she has a part-

time job at North Florida Regional, she has worked--when she came back

here, ...when she came back in the spring of'Seventy --

R: Came back from college?

L: No, she had been working in Boston when she i

But she came back in the spring of 'Seventy so that I could get away

for a while. Winston had been ill so much.

R: Uh-huh.

L: So she came back to look after him so that I could travel and get awayg

'" '...so I went...snd she was here from then on, she's

lived in Gainesville from then on, and married here--

R: Well now, we forgot to say where these girls went to college.

L: ..... Uh, Joanne went here to the University of Florida.Before we

were in other places, this is where she wanted to go.But she lived on

campus, on the campus the first year and then moved to the Tri Delt

house -----------...

R: I see.

L: Then she worked in Washington. She worked for Billy Rog--uh, Billy


60 Mayhew



L: Matthews and then for Paul Rogers. And she was in Washington when

Kennedy was inaugurated-in fact, nearly froze to death on the day of

his inauguration because she apre-a bus 4=W to get there, and the

bus got stalled in the snow, you remember the--

R: Yes, I know--I saw that--

L: They were there in the bus for hours. She had 4- anyway,

it's and interesting story.

And, uh, Winston, Jr., went to MIT--all the way through.He's the


R: I see.

L: He's not yet married.

L: No. He's a nuclear physicist,and he works out in, uh,... he lives in

Richland, Washington, and works really with _ H ssa_

R: With what kind of--?

L: Hansberg Project, it's a nuclear experimental developmental... sort of thing.

R: .I see.

L: Like Oak Ridge.

R: I see.

L: And, uh...then, Marilyn...what was I-? Oh, first, when she came back

here, she went to the College of Journalism here and got her Master's

in journalism. And then she-

R: What--was she an undergraduate from some other place?

L: She had graduated from Agnes Scott.





Anne Little

Emily Ring

R: Well, now, you forgot to say that.

L:q Uh-huh, she graduated from Agnes Scott.

R: Uh-huh,uh-huh.

L: And then took her Master's here, in January. And she worked first at

the University in the Foundations, in the Foundations. She worked with

Wilkinson and --

R: Uh-huh,uh-huh.

L: And then she worked down at the Chamber of Commerce, and now she works

at North Florida Regional...on hospital. So she's had interesting exper-

ience in years, and she's gotten to know many of the leaders iii the--

R: Well, she sounds like a very busy young woman, like her momma.

Do either one of the girls look like you, Anne? Do people say they

look like--?

L: Sometimes people say that they do, yes. But I don't see it. They're

both so pretty. Well, I was supposed to be pretty when I was young,

I haven't--
R: Well you still pretty.

L: I remember that Dean--Dr. Wi+-am, do you remember Dr. Wji;am?-- the

Matherlys had a reception for us, after we were married. I remember

hearing Dr. 0? ?t/vf rp ? ;f "Gosh, (
pretty! I didn't know she was going to be so pretty!"

R: That always helps! s/ Zr/ ^>

Well now, what year was it that you lost Winston?

62 Mayhew



L: He died in the spring of 'Seventy--NoI I don't mean the spring-- He

died that fall. He was very ill in the spring, and he was very ill a-

gain in August, and uh...but he died at .' (C C in

November of OSCA I'V- C

R: Of s~wvg.*

L: Mm-hm.

R: So you have been a widow now almost nine years.

L: Uh-huh.

R: And during your time of being a widow, you have remained active in all

sorts of organizations and also you have taken to becoming one of our

leading world travelers in Gainesville, and you come back from your

world travels and give slide shows and talks about your adventures

which are very interestingto all the rest of us. Tell us some of the

places you have been, Anne.

L: Oh--well--...not many of the places I hope to go, the Lord willing!

Uh, I've been to Europe--oh, Idon't know,five six times.

R: Now has all of this been since you lost Winston?

L: No, I went the first time in ift wea, and then again in 'FEiy -it.

And then in 'Siy t, I was--we were all ready to go around the

world, uh, Helen Jones and Rev. Jones and brother and sister and I.

And we had a wonderful trip all mapped out. But Winston got sick.

I had already gone up to Cincinnati to see Joanne for two days before

I went on to New York to leave and join them in Germany.

R: Now Winston was not going to go?

L: No, Winston never wanted to go. He always encouraged me to go, he was

63 Mayhew



L: all for my traveling. But he didn't want to, m(Aft S7A4 '

a r4 Um,anyway, he got very sick, and he didn't want

the neighbors to let me know because he didn't want to stop my trip

around the world, but they did let me know of course, and 2- ?1_ 6^

'o, as a comp-, kind of compensation, I did get a trip to Mexico later

that year (aiMv 7 ..

R; I see.

L: Uh, and then, let's see... I guess...well, wait a minute--here! I

know, I've got it all written down,in hopes that you would ask me where

I'd been!

R: Yes, indeed! I

L: Uh, in Ltyry=+g I did go t ,lfexsco. In 'Sixty-nine, I 7M ,

Helen Jones and I went to the Yucatan and saw the ruins there, the

Mayan ruins.

R: I see.

L: In 'Seventy--

R: By the way, Helen Jones is the choirmistress and organist of Holy Trin-

ity Church, and the widow of Rev. JSnes, who was a professor of ...

L: Art.

R: Art, yes.

L: In 'Seventy,-- as I said, f( came back so that I could

get away-- and I went by myself, just to get away. I was exhausted

from the...oh, PEO convention, and exhausted from Winston's illnesses,

and I needed just to get away. So I went by myself to Spain, to Greece,

UF83A 64 Mayhew



L: and then I went up to Germany and joined the...Helen, and we joined

/V(i. in Sweden, and were there, and then I left them

and came down and joined a school friend of mine in France and we went

to tours of the chateau country and Paris. And that was a nice trip

/ :Alt Then in 'Seventy-one--this was, well, after Winston died

in November -- at Christmastime, the Do rfrE&i gave me a Christmas

card with an invitation to go to England with them in the spring,

R: Mm-hm.

L: So in the spring, the Dorrences and Iwent--had a beautiful trip to

England. We had a car and a driver, and we went-- oh, it was a .A Xg-

marvelous trip all through England, throughout the trip. And then,

when I left them I went over to France, and joined-- my sister joined

me in France, it was her first trip to Europe.

R: I see.

L: And we joined a tour, and went all the way around the perimeter of

France, and when we got to Paris we remained in Paris. So that also

was a nice trip. In fact, I don't know of a trip that I haven't thor-

oughly enjoyed! One of the main ones, one of the places I would most

like to go back is East Africa. I went there in 'Seventy-two. And, oh!
A e-
I would love so much to go back where I went in Tanzania and EB ,r

and also to go to .Bakema and other game reserves, it's the big animals

that I love.

R: And it's all changing so fast now.

L: Yes, so I'd like very much to go back to East Africa.

In 'Seventy-three, the Dainzers--you know Harvey Dainzer?

65 Mayhew



R: Yes, they're confirmed travelers too.

L: Yes, uh-huh. Harvey and Margaret and Margaret's sister, Florence

McIntyre, and I had an absolutely fantastic trip to India. He had

many graduate students in India, and so he had planned this whole

itinerary for them.

R: Yes.

L: And they were the most hospitable people, they couldn't do enough for

us. So we had the privilege of ) A ( 9 --

we had the privilege of visiting in many Indian homes.

R: These were Harvey's students.

L: Uh-huh.

R: I see. Who had come to this university to study with him.

L: Mm-hm, yeah.

R: In business.

L: Yep, uh-huh. And they had gone back to India, you see. Or in some

cases, the students were still here, but the families artedto

R: Yes, yes.

L: So we had seven weeks going all around India.

R: Yes. 4

L: and 'l ~ J- A~kM 5 It was just such an

unusual experience, because--well, one day I remember we were traveling

with an Indian family across country there, and we went across these

wide rivers on ferry. And we -- our little car and a cow would be the

two only things on this little ferry, 1221 2 5/4 /


66 Mayhew



L: People would pole across fl v /' ;/V' and people

were working, oh, dredging big rivers, carrying thesoil on their heads

in baskets. It was just-- it was really a cultural shock, you... I

really came back deeply affected by what hadseen over there...

R: And you didn't have too much trouble with language because so many

people in India speak English.

L: Beautiful British English.

R: Yes, uh-huh.

L: Well that also was a fantastic trip. We went to Nepal, we were in Nepal

for part of that time. And then Florence and I came back into Egypt

and this-- war had been declared between Israel and Egypt the day that

we left to go to India. But we went still. They were still in a state

of war in Egypt, and I thought we were very foolish to go there. But

we did, and this would make a whole story in itself but I've got to

stop. But to be in Egypt, when they were still at war with Israel, and

we were the two American people-- we would be in these big hotels, built

for tourists, you know,and there'd be maybe five people living there.

in the hotel. And we would be the only Americans.

R: This was you and--?

L: And Florence McIntyre, who is Margaret Danzer's sister.

R: Yes.

L: And, uh, we were in the Hilton there in Cairo, and whole floors of it

were closed, you know. We were-- we two women alone, we ran into one

other American family, and we ran into them two or three times on our--

67 Mayhew




L: we went all the way down to Abu-Sa;= l-. And this family was from Texas,

and that Christmas I had a card from them, and they said, "We are still

worryin about you, you two women. Please let us know that you got home


R: You don't say.

L: Mm-hm. Because it was very iffy to be in -- you know, they were still in

a state of war, and just one zealot with a hp tt# could have

disposed of us very easily.

R; Yes. But you got to see Egypt.

L: Oh, yes. And it was very interesting to see it that way. In fact, I th

think it would be something of an anticlimax to go back there now in

the ordinary state of things!

R: Well, it's just the opposite now, it's so crowded that you have to fight

your way around.

L: Well then, in 'Seventy-five, I had -- oh, yes, htis was one of the Wymer's

tours -- and I roomed with Virginia Arays, who is such an--who was such
a beautiful artist, such beautiful faces-- and it was just lovely to be

with her and it was a great trip because ...

R: Yes, uh-huh.

L: In tSeventy-s-inx, Virginia Leps and I went to South America, f ?(.

In 'eve~ety-seven, I had a trip to the Galapagos Islands--wonderful trip-

q then, I went to.Great Britain: to Scotland and England--and that was a

tour-- and then, after that, joined--the Derals and I rented a car, and






L: we went, we spent two weeks in Ireland and Wales.

R: All of this in '- rerty-seven .

L: Uh-huh. And then that fall I went with the Retired Faculty group to


R: To Mexico, my goodness! Well you didn't stay home most of 'eveCty-.sena'

L: No, I didn't! In 'Seaenty eight I made up for it, but I had a wonderful

trip first in the spring to the South Pacific.

R: In '5t.0.Tc .

L: Uh-huh, in spring of 'tSeve.ty-e4ght. Covered about twenty-three thousand

miles, and went all the way from, oh, Tahiti--

R: That Xs a tour with what group?

L: The N/TA. y
R: Yes, uh-huh. Do recommend the N/TA?

L: I really do. Well-made, they had an excellent ____

R: Retired teacher's association.

L: Uh-huh.

R: Now, all of your trips have been either-- well, many of then were with

personal friends here in Gainesville, some with couples, some with widows,

and, uh--but they've all been guided tours, haven't they? Did you ever

just go up on--now several of those--

L: No, no, on my way to Spain and Greece I was just by myself.

R: Yes, I see.

L: And then I joined friends in Germany, Sweden, and France.

R: I see, uh-huh. So you've had a combination of going alone--I mean, going--

L: Well, in the South Pacific trip, it was with a tour, but I didn't know





L: anyone else, I just ~te-ck with tehe4

R: Uh-huh, I see. A

L: Sometimes you can find people that want to p

R: You didn't have a roommate on that tour.

L: I did have a roommate--

R: Was assigned to you.

L: Yes, uh-huh.

R: And you were lucky on that?

L: Ours did work out very well,

R: Uh-huh, I see. Well, that's a wonderful experience, all the trips you've

been on, Anne.

L: Well, let me say one more thing, I told you that music was one of my

hobbies, but birdwatching is another.

R: Yes, I'm going to get to the birds.

L: Oh, all right, all right, I'll forgive you that one day.

R: You were recently written up in a feature article in the Gainesville

Sun about how successfully you attract birds to your backyard because

you have a variety of feeders out here, and I'm looking out in your back-

yard now--Anne, I don't see a single bird, what's happened to the birds?

L: I don't know what has happened to the birds this year, everybody has the

same complaint. They just aren't in Gainesville. I don't know whether

last year's cold killed them, or whether it's been so cold this year that

they've gone further south, or what, but all the people in Gainesville

UF83A 70 Mayhew



L: are having the same experience. There are very few birds in town.

R: My theory is that it was the long drought that we had at the end of the

summer and the fall, and theirs just not enough- here for them -o eat

L: Could be. 6jA f4cxAT) But it's very disappointing

tomme because I enjoy them so much.

R: Yes. What are your favorite birds, or do you have favorites among the


L: Mn, yes, I have a very favorite, a little oven bird, and he's only about

so big, and he's a very shy, rare little bird, but one has come every

year to our yard, for years, and I call it the little ghost bird, because

even looking at it, you can scarcely see it.. So-

R: At first you called it an oven bird, and then you called it a ghost bird.

L: I call it a ghost bird, I do, because it's somewhere--

R: What family does it belong to?

L: It's a warbler, it's in the warbler family. It's only about so big, and

it comes and it's right there under my Canadian Pi( C lLrfs r

R: What color is it?

L: It's a little brown-and-white bird with a little rust top. It's so very

shy and beautiful. I love it. And it finally came the other day, I had

just screamed because I hadn't seen one all of this year. And finally

last Saturday afternoon it finally appeared. But I haven't seen it since,

I don't know whether it went on further south, or whether it. LOw r l)

f (Lot 0 kLc. But every winter I had them.

R: Mm-hm, yes..

L: 1^-C1-- I love the warblers, I love the little birds, I love all

UF83A 71 Mayhew



L: little things.

R: Maybe when the spring comes our birds will come back.

L: I hope so.

R: Anne, I want to thank you so much for this delightful conversation, and

I want to tell you that you will receive back a typewritten copy of our

talk. You will have a chance to "clean it up", as Dr. Proctor says, and

take out anything you want to take out, and slip a few things in--

L: That's nice!

R: --correct our grammar,and so forth if you want to, although we like first--

L: I don't know what I said, I have no idea what I've said!

R: Well, I think, I think you'll be delighted when you read it over, and uh,

then it will go back to be typed up for the final time, and then you will

sign a release so that we can put it in the Archives of the State--of the

Museum on the Florida, University of Florida campus.

So again I want to thank you, and -- I've enjoyed it very much.

L: Well, I have, too -- it's been good.

R: Hello, Anne had a thought about Mrs. Tigert that we wanted to splice into

this conversation. What was that you wanted to tell about Mrs. Tigert?

L: Well, it was while we were living in the apartment house. And it was

after Joanne and Winston, Jr. had been born. And I was as busy as I could

be in those days, withouthelp and with two babies, eleven-and-a-half

months apart. So, we had diaper service. One morning there was a little


UF83A 72 Mayhew



L:q knock on the door, and I was very sure it was the diaper man coming. So

I went in my old wrap-up to the door, to give the man the diapers. And

there stood Mrs. John J. Tigert.

R: Yes, with a pair of booties on.

L: With booties.

R: Yeah, right:

L: She had come to call with the booties! Because she did this to all the

babies, you know, but it was the furthest from my mind, that anybody would

come early in the morning like that.

R: Yes, yes!

L: But she was such a charming person, we were good friends-

R: She really was.
ii 0-
L: --I love that Mrs. Tigert /-- '/ 6 d Winston

had a great respect for Dr. Tigert.

R: And you have enjoyed the friendship of her daughter, who went to Agnes


L: Yes, Mary Jane.

R: Mary Janet Where is Mary Jane now?

L: I don't know. The last time I heard about her, she was in Jacksonville

Beach. I'm not sure just whether or not--

R: Well now Mrs. Tigert is not living now, is she?

L: Yes, she is.

R: She's in a nursing home?

L: Yes, and after I've said that, I believe that Mary Jane must be down in

Coral Gables now because that's where Mrs. Tigert is.

UF83A 73 Mayhew



R: In Coral Gables.

L: --and that 3adv. she could ha beautiful.

R: Is she in a nursing home in Coral Gables?

L: I think so, retirement home--

R: Retirement home, uh-huh.

h: -I think it's a nursing home.

R: I see, uh-huh. Yes, she was a beautiful lady.

L: g________

R: I understand that at one time, she was, she loved horseback riding.

When they had the horses, when they had ROTC, they had riding horses

where the coliseum is now being built.
L: I just found out that Marjorie Kinnan A you know, that--she was a

great friend of the Tigerts.

R: Yes.

L: And before we were married, before I was in the picture, Winston had--

was there,at the Tigert's house, as the date, as the dinner date for
Mrs. A "several times. But they didn't get along real well. Winston

didn't appreciate people that -- women, who talked rather abruptly, and

Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings did.

R:: Well, I wanted to ask you something about Winston's attitude toward women

teaching on the faculty -- ah, some tales were going around University

College about UngariJohnson coming into the Humanities faculty. I believe

she was the first woman allowed to teach in the college. Of course, there

weren't any in Arts and Sciences,either, because there seems to have

been in those days a quite ordinary, usual prejudice against women pro-

fessors. And especially if you were married to another professor here--

UF83A 74 Mayhew



R: the nepotism law was supposed to prevent your teaching. But the joke

is that Bob Davidson, who was chairman of Humanities, put Ungar Johnson's

name on the list of proposed new professors, and that Dr., that Dean

little passed over her name,, thinking she was a.man, because he didn't

realize that Ungar was a woman's name!

L: I just--

R: Do you suppose that story is true?
would've it
L: I3 could be true, but I don't think he opposed if he'd realized

she was a woman--

R: You don't think so.

L: --because he was all the time 44'/i ?h T you know he was very

q helpful to IiJL4(( ( r )

R: Yes.

L: And was all for her teaching--

R: And she came--

L: She could be--she came A f7i .J( 6H'S4t Co/k,

R: And down here's where she ,5 ,'-, .--,.. .-

L: Yes!

R: Well, thenT-

L: He was all for--I don't believe he had any feeling like that.
R: Well, I'm e got that straightened out.

L: I don't know anything about this, actually--

R: Well now-- did-omy-n.Ruth come in after Ermgard, or before, I can't

remember? And then there was Bertha Bloodworth, but I believe she only

taught in the English Department of Arts and Sciences. Did she teach




R: in University College, Bertha Bloodworth?

L: I don't know.

R: But then later on, when Mrs.--

L: Dusenberg, Mrs. Dusenberg--

R: When-Busenberg, after she was widowed, was allowed to teach on the fac-

ulty, and I was allowed--

L: I just-- I never have heard him say any-, I can't remember ever having

heard him say anything in opposition to... They just wouldn't accept

any women applicants to teach at that time, you know?

R: Right, yes.

L: um... but I don't believe he would have been opposed to it on that

grounds, I don't believe so.

R: Well, I'm glad to hear that.
It/ ri-hm A 4
L: Jdoaen-had strong ideas, and he stood by them, believe you me, -vLl --

R: I wanted to teach in University College in the days when Bill Caulton

was Dean...uh, was Chairman of the Social Sciences Department of

University College, and he would have hired me except for the nepotism


L: Mm-hm.

R: And then I, after my husband died, they let me teach.

L: Mm-hm.

R: But, uh...

L: I know there was that.

R: And later on they sort of forgot about that. And they really... And


UF83A 76 Mayhew



R: then during the war years, when they needed women,they... some women

were teaching on a temporary basis.

L: I really--this surprises me, you know I never heard this before, but

I-- Winston had cousins, all of his cousins were teachers in junior

colleges, down in St. Petersburg they taught in junior college. He

was one of the co-founders of St. Petersburg Junior College, which was

one of the early junior colleges.

R: Yes.

L: And he had many good friends down there in St. Petersburg who were

teachers. I just don't believe that there's a basis...I don't believe

he had that bias, is what I'm getting at.
R: Well good, we've \that straightened out.

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