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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
1978. My name is Steve Kerber and
I am going to be conducting an oral history interview with Mr.
Thomas J. Price. Mr. Price was formerly assistant to the
at the University of Florida.
for the University of Florida's Oral History Project will take
9:30 a.m. in the Ford Library of the Florida State
K:We have a general kind of a uh,
set of questions that we use on
most people but obviously we vary it depending on what their
particular area was at the university.
But, very briefly,
I'm going to ask you a few questions about your own
background and then get into how you came to the university
and questions about your work in the business office. So,
if there's any....
P:Well, see mine's primarily well altogether in the business end
of it, not in
any teaching or...
K:So if there's anything uh, that you'd like to expand upon that
I don't get to directly enough,
I wish you'd do that so we
get it on the tape.
K:O.K., and I usually start just by asking you to give me your
uh, full name, for the record.
P:My full name's Thomas James Price.
K:And where were you born, Mr. Price?
Today is Monday, November 13,
P:Born on a farm near Melrose.
K:Do you mind telling
me your birth date?
P:July 2, 1906.
K:Now, this was
the family farm,
I take it?
K:Uh-huh. What did your dad
farming, cotton. It was back in the days when cotton
was quite a, uh, farm crop.
He even had uh, gins
by water power.
K:Uh-huh. Do you come from a large family?
P:No, just a sister, my parents, other than uh. Now, they had
large families but behind them, but my immediate one was
only my sister and parents.
K:What was your father's
K:Can you spell that middle name
K:O.k. and what was ....
P:I don't know whether he was relation to the [laugh]
Murchisons or not. Don't think so.
K:What was your mother's name?
P:Uh, Marjanna Spivey.
K:O.k. Now where did you attend grade school?
K:In Melrose? in town?
P:Melrose High School.
K:Uh-huh, and you went to high school there?
K:Did you have the opportunity to go on to college or did you
have to go to work right away?
P:I did some of both. I came to Gainesville and uh, first in
P:Uh, part-time work at the old Phifer State Bank. And, I didn't
go to school that year, but the following year I did come to
the university and uh, work and school at the university.
K:Now, you were first, you first came to Gainesville in 1923.
Did you have opportunity to finish your degree?
P:No, I didn't. I did a lot of self-education, and some
correspondence work through the General Extension Division.
But I never did actually get a degree from the university.
K:Uh-huh. Did you immediately get a job at the University of
P:No, no. In 1926, three years later. I uh, being in the
banking game, I took a job in Palatka, Florida, in a bank,
assistant cashier. In 19....later that summer of 1926,
banks started popping off--Depression, Florida land boom
P:And uh, after being in Palatka for a few months, the first bank
closed, another bank hired me. Called me up to come work
for them, which I did, until my first bank reopened.
P:And I went back with them, but they couldn't make it through
their second summer. And, in 1927, it closed for good, and
then I came back to the, to Gainesville and uh, got the job
in the business office at the university.
P:Stayed there until 1966.
K:Would you tell us a little bit more about how you actually got
that job? In other words, how you heard about it and who
you want to see and...
P:Well, I went back to the vice-president of Phifer bank, and
tried to get back on there but they had no openings. But he
referred me to Mr. Klein Graham who was then the business
manager of the university. And I came out without any call
or anything to see him, and uh, he seemed interested, but he
uh, wouldn't tell me definitely that day. He did some
checking on me.
P:And the next day, he told me to come back and the next day I
did and he told me I'd go to work the following day, which I
K:What time of the year....
P:It was October the 14th, 1927, that I came to work.
K:Had you known Mr. Graham in the time you had been here as a
P:Only knowing him in a business way.
P:Uh, and I uh, well, I first knew him when I was working in the
Phifer Bank. He was a customer there. Knew who he was, I
wasn't really personally acquainted with him, but I knew
K:Let me back up just a little bit now and talk about the time
between 1923 and 1926 when you were going to school and also
working at the bank. Did you live on campus?
K:Did you live in a boarding house?
P:Uh, I had a room out on what is now Third Avenue, uh, it was
called McCormick street then. Uh, rooming with another
employee of the, assistant cashier of the Phifer Bank. And
we were eating our meals wherever we were. Wasn't a regular
boarding house, we haven't...rented rooms in private home,
very nice place.
K:Uh-huh. Were you uh, attending classes on any kind of a
regular basis and then like how many would you have been
attending during a semester and how much time were you
putting in at the bank?
P:I was putting in approximately half-time working, the rest of
it in school.
K:Uh-hm. What sort of a degree were you hoping to work towards?
P:That was at the beginning of the business administration
college. Uh, they didn't even call it business
administration at that time. It was uh, business and social
P:Dr. L. M.[Lucius Moody] Bristol was the head of it at that
time. Before Dean[Walter Jefferies] Mateherly came.
K:Could you tell us a little bit about Dr. Bristol, what sort of
a character he was?
P:Well, as I recall, he, after he uh, Matherly came, Bristol went
back as head of department of sociology I believe it was.
Uh, he was, I thought, a very likable person, very
efficient. I, I after being full-time business office, I
became really better acquainted with him then I did as a
P:I knew him quite well. Admired his ability.
K:Let me ask you what your duties were at the bank. What
position did you hold and what did you do?
P:Well here, I did uh, machine posting, sorting checks, uh,
writing up what they term the uh, the uh, out of town
checks...the latter was a term they used at that time which
uh, they call now, I think bank clearing. That, back in
those days was done manually.
You'd do it by hand. And uh,
that was one job, I did teller's work. That's where I
learned first to handle money.
K & P:[laugh]
P:Uh, receiving, deposits, paying, receiving and disbursing
teller. The bookkeeping, statements, in fact there were
just a few of us that time in the bank, it had assets then
less than a million dollars.
P:And uh, in experience like that you learn to do everything that
was to be done in a bank.
P:Even making loans.
K:Who were the bank officers? The men that you worked for?
P:Well, at the beginning, Mr. W. B.[William Baxter] Phifer was
the president, Mr. J. A. Phifer was vice-president and Mr.
H. L.[Henry langdon] was vice-president and cashier, was the
Carmichael was at that time was had not
even been named assistant cashier.
P:he later was while I was employed there. Mr. Karl
later became, he was a teller when I came and he later
became assistant cashier. And uh, course, they're all
now, every one of them.
Uh, Mr. Carmichael later well, the
Phifer Bank closed along in the thirties. But he went to,
he was my roommate too, incidently, uh he went with what was
then the Citizens
Bank which is
now the Sun Bank.
K:Yes, sir. Uh-hm.
P:And was vice-president of that.
after it reopened and then
the Florida National.
P:Present Florida National
here, and he was
Zitrouer stayed with
it was taken over by
president of that.
P:There another employee, Fred May.
Fred May and Byron Mills. They later went with
the First National. Both became, well
May became assistant
retired, later Mills became cashier. And he is now
retired. Bad health.
title... Mr. J. B.
K:I see, I see. When was the first time that you remember
actually coming to the university? Was it before 1923?
mean just visiting the campus, seeing the campus?
P:No, not to be on the campus.
P:Of course, passing and
uh, uh, I knew the university was here
even from a child.
P:But uh, my contacts on the campus were not before 1923.
When you came to Gainesville, then, in 1923,
started school, was University Avenue paved out
campus at that time?
P:Paved only to what is now Thirteenth Street.
K:Uh-hm, and that was the end of it? Was Thirteenth
K:North or South,
P:Thirteenth was a cow, cow trail.
P:At least north.
K:Where was the main entrance to the
P:It's on the corner of uh, what's now Thirteenth and University
Avenue and not right on the corner it was uh,
there was a
semicircle, entrance there that went around up by the law
college and back around to Language and Science Halls.
K:Uh-huh, then came back out again to University?
P:And back further on down University.
K:Hm, was that a paved road?
P:Yes, it was semi-paved.
K:Uh-huh. Was the campus landscaped at all at that time? Were
there lawns and shrubs and ...
P:The ROTC did all of their drills right out on campus even there
by what where the, the uh, present library is.
K:On the Plaza?
P:Yeah, that was parade ground, drill grounds not parade, drill.
K:I see. Uh, were there any businesses or any residences on the
north side of University Avenue north of the campus in 1923?
P:Uh, the Black Cat was on the corner on the opposite corner of
University Avenue, the entrance.
P:That was operated by Bud Mizell who was
uh, he and his brother,
Bud was president of the student body in 1927 when Dr.
K:Would that have been the corner where the Holiday Inn is now?
K:That would, o.k. then, then the northwest one?
P:The northwest corner.
K:The northwest corner. Was that a restaurant,
cream parlor or what?
P:A sandwich place.
K:The Black Cat. Sandwiches.
P:Hamburgers, hot dogs.
K:And that was the big hangout for the students at that time?
P:That was quite a popular place, the Black Cat. A,
further up, I think College Inn had opened about that time.
But very little in between except boarding houses.
K:Uh-huh. Did you uh, attend any football games in the period,
1923 to 1926.
P:Oh yea, yes sir, yes sir.
K:Where were they playing at that time, where....
K:North of the current stadium? Do you remember which
P:Ran north and south.
K:North and south, I see. Did...
P:Yea, that was the field uh, uh, I think that early, 1923, I
didn't know too much about it in 23 when I came here, in
25, 26 I think the, uh, J.A. Van Fleet was the coach.
K:Uh-huh. Did you go to any basketball games in that time
P:Uh, some, not too many. It was in um, the Basketball Court
west of uh, dormitories, uh, a good many basketball games
or like an ice
and they always had the high school tournament there. That
was a big occasion, high schools in the spring.
Took in a
good many of those.
P:Even before 1923.
K:Do you remember where the baseball diamond was at that time?
P:I think that was across Fleming Field, as I recall...
K:To the south?
K:Well, let me bring you back up then to starting work at the
university. Did anyone besides Mr. Graham have to interview
you, speak with you?
P:No, they didn't.
K:It was all his decision? What was the official title of the
job that you started out at? Or did it have one?
P:I started, [laugh] first two weeks I had the title of
bookkeeper, and the first of November I had the title of
P & K:[laugh]
K:Were there any other bookkeepers at that time?
P:Uh, there had been a uh, a student working part-time who had
been doing it and he stayed on but, I was the machine
operator; cause I'd had three or four years bank experience
with the same type of machine.
K:Now, what type of machine are you referring to?
P:A Burrough's posting machine.
P:The style of fifty years ago.
K:Hm. Was that about the only business machine they were using
at that time other than say a typewriter or an adding
P:Typewriters and adding machines, this was the only special
posting machine, they called it.
K:Now, how many other people were working in the business office
at that time when you started?
P:Well, let me, let me get the set up on that. Mr. Klein Graham
was termed business manager and, incidentally, he had just
been given that title that year.
P:Uh, the chief, the financial officer up to then was just called
P:Well then in July of 1927, he uh, his title was changed to
business manager, and Huber Hurst [LL.B.] was termed
auditor, and that was just a part-time affair. He, uh, he
was teaching business law in, then in the college of
business administration, one class, four o'clock in the
afternoon. He'd leave the business office to go teach his
class. There were two students in my section. Mr. Graham
had a secretary, there was a cashier Mr. J.[James] B.
Goodson, there was another typist who prepared requisitions
and purchase orders and that [inaudible] down stairs, and of
course under Mr. Graham's supervision, was the bookstore.
It two..well, there were three employees, one part-time, two
P:The two Rathburne sisters and Miss Myra Swearingen.
P:Uh, that was the office force.
K:Uh-huh. Now, which building were you located in at that time?
P:They call it Anderson Hall now, it was Language Hall then,
before it was named Anderson.
K:And the bookstore was in the basement?
P:Basement of that building.
K:And you all were above it?
K:Which part of the building were
P:The west end.
P:West section on the south side.
K:I see, o.k.
P:Also in that building was the registrar,...
P:General Extension Division, a part of the business end of the
Agricultural Experiment Station, that was also under Mr.
Graham but it was just the record keeping over there.
P:Uh, president's office was across the hall.
P:Military department was downstairs on the northeast corner,
general extension division was in the southeast section.
Graduate school office, I
believe, was right at the end of
the building in the east, extreme east end. General
extension had two floors,
it was on two floors, basement and
the first floor, in that's..it had a circular staircase from
one to the other.
K:I see. Was there anyone above you as supervisor other than Mr.
K:You worked right for him? And then he reported directly to the
president? Is that how it worked? O.k.
P:President and the Board of Control.
K:Uh, now, how long did you stay in that position that they
called head bookkeeper?
P:Till 1937, ten years.
K:And then what job did you fill at that time?
P:I was given the title of auditor of budgetary funds. We had a
little peculiar set up. Between the budget appropriated
funds from Tallahassee and the auxiliary funds which was
the, the operations and activities on the campus:
bookstore, cafeteria. Any self-supporting activities were
called auxiliary funds.
P:And uh, Mr. Homer [H.D.] Wingate was, had the title of auditor
of auxiliary funds.
P:I had the other end, side of it.
K:Were those auxiliary operations ever allowed to operate in the
red? Or did they have to at least break even?
P:They had to break even.
K:They had to.
They would not subsidize them at all? I see,
P:Only later, uh, radio station WRUF started, at first they were
appropriated, had had appropriated funds.
P:Later, they became through some jealousy or something in
amongst some of the legislators, they cut them off from
state funds and forced them to go to auxiliary altogether.
I don't know what it is now.
K:Do your remember roughly when that took place? Was it very
soon after they started in 1928 that they....
P:No, no, it was a good many years later before that. I'd say
probably uh, fifteen years at least. Maybe twenty.
K:I was going to ask you about WRUF. Did the business office
handle all their business operations during the time that
you were here at the university?
P:All of the buying, paying of bills, and everything, yes. We
didn't have a thing to do with the program activities.
P:And but on the finances we did. I, I seem to recall that uh,
when this radio station was first talked about or got
started, it even had a different call letter.
P:I, I have in mind, it stuck in my memory that the letters were
K:I think that's correct.
P:UH, a man named Higgens over in the engineering college was the
one that originally was kind of the planner of the
P:Uh, he didn't last too long.
P:He left Gainesville, the university.
K:Is it your impression that he came up with those letters?
P:I don't know whether he did or that was assigned by the
communications commission but that was the impression around
our place. At the beginning of the radio station, those
were the call letters.
K:Did you know Major Powell very well?
K:What kind of a man was he? What was he like?
P:Uh, I liked Garland very much, we got along together very well.
Uh, he had a hard time when he first came here. Uh, I
don't think he knew too much about radio activities and he
even tried to be an announcer some of the time. Guess he
had to. But uh, first few years, Garland and, and Claude
Murphree were practically the only ones that put on any
programs and then Red Barber got into it, the Orange Grove
String Band. And uh, of course you know where Red went to.
But he had uh, that was quite a popular program back in
those days. Garland uh, he, he tried awful hard and did
work very hard to develop that station.
P:And uh, uh, he, he certainly carried it a long way from what it
was when he came here.
K:Uh-huh. Do you remember hearing any of those organ concerts on
P:I've heard many a one.
K:People actually did listen to them then?
K:Yeah. I see.
P:Yea, Claude Murphree played in the auditorium other there.
They had remote uh, broadcast facilities put in there.
That's about all they had other then a few studio programs.
K:Uh-hm. Let me ask you now how your responsibilities as auditor
differed if at all from what you had been doing. In other
words, what were you doing as auditor now?
P:Well, uh, I was responsible and under control, payrolls, paying
of all bills. After 1937, uh, preparation of the, uh, I
mean the actual business preparation of the budget. Uh,
under, of course, under Mr. Graham's control and presence.
But uh, back at that time, the president usually told Mr.
Graham to prepare the budget for submission to the Board of
Control and it was the Board of Control then and not
P:Five members and a secretary. And uh,
there would be
recommendations, now after Dr. Tigert came that, that
developed more and more as recommendations from the deans,
the respective colleges, department heads, and they were,
after those requests came in.
P:Uh, I think it was Dr. Tigert who first appointed what they
termed budget committee to go over those requests, before,
they were actually put into form for submission to the Board
P:Requests from the colleges and departments had to come from
business manager and president, they reviewed them. Cut out
a lot of things. Go to the Board of Control and they
frequently cut it.
P:Go to the budget commission of the Cabinet, they cut it. And
finally to the legislature. It was a progressive chain.
P:And it could be mutilated anywhere.
K:[laugh] It's your impression [thank you] it's your impression
though that Dr. Tigert took more seriously perhaps the
requests of the uh, chairmen and the deans than Dr. Murphree
did as far as input into it.
P:I think so. Uh, now I was only
under Murphree for less than
P:I didn't get into that end of it during his...that...rest of
his administration, cause see I came in October and he died
P:Uh, so what went ahead of that, I don't have the knowledge.
But I know that Dr. Tigert did begin to more formally
organize the, the budgeting procedures.
K:Did you have the opportunity to meet President Murphree at all
in that period of time?
P:Yes, I met him.
K:What were your impressions of him?
P:I admired him very much. I had, course I'd heard of him many
years and uh, knew who he was although he didn't know me I
guess, but uh, I did meet him uh, while he he was... during
those couple of months. Uh, he was a very personable,
likable gentleman, speaking of southern gentlemen, I would
say he was a southern gentleman.
K:Uh-hm. Was he very friendly?
P:Very much so, very much so.
K:Is it true that he had uh, a very much of an open door policy
that students or whoever could just go and see him?
P:I think, I think so and I'd heard that but...Course back at
that time uh, student body wasn't a tenth of what it is now.
Oh, 1,500 or so at that time, maybe 2,000. And uh, he, he
was out on the campus actually more and, and got to know
personally many, many of the students.
P:Particularly the student leaders, football players, uh, I think
he had uh, he had time really to be more intimate with his
K:Uh-hm. How would you contrast his personality and approach
compared to Dr. Tigert?
P:Well, Dr. Tigert was more reserved, uh, he uh, he was certainly
friendly after you got to know him, but he was rather
difficult to first get acquainted with.
P:Later in his administration, I had some outside opportunities
to uh, get personally acquainted with Dr. Tigert and he was
most friendly. Uh, very complimentary and uh, things that
were uh, well I, just how to say that, but uh, there were
progressive that were uh, uh, he thought was for the good of
P:But uh, he had some very high standards and if the faculty or
an individual didn't come up to that, he could uh, he could
go the other way very forcefully.
P:And let it be known what, what he demanded.
K:Uh-huh, in other words he was willing to let people know that
he was in charge?
P:Uh, we all said later that uh, some of these students pranks
and all, that if Dr. Tigert had been in charge at that time
there would have been some different results.
K:Uh-hm. I know he had been an athlete. Was he at all an
outdoorsman while he was president?
P:Not to my knowledge.
K:I understand that you're quite a fisherman. Do you know if he
had any interest in that?
P:I don't think that I ever heard of any oh, he may have gone on
a few occasional trips. Uh, but uh, I don't think he was
known as ah, outdoor sportsman other than of course, he was
interested in football, having been all southern, all
American at Vanderbilt. Uh, but other than that, football,
probably baseball, I, I don't recall of any other
K:Let me ask you about Dr. Farr, the vice-president who served as
acting president in between. Did you know him at all?
P:Jimmy? Well, uh, not personally, I didn't know him. I, I uh,
knew who he was and heard of him even before I came to
Gainesville. Fact, he made a, I believe it was in our high
school graduation, he made the commencement address,
graduation speech uh, I got just to dealing with him in
business way here during time of interim acting president,
between Murphree and Tiger. Ah, he lived downtown,
University Avenue, quite an old colonial home down there,
course, gone now, is just east where the Baptist Church is.
And uh, he and his wife were quite prominent socially. I
had quite some retirement dealings with him, when, when it
was, they thought it necessary he retire. We didn't have
too much of a retirement program at that time and we had
some, had to work out some problems which I think were
solved equitably. And he left here and went to Atlantic
Beach, I believe. And that's where he lived out the rest of
K:Was he rumored to be very disappointed that he did not, that he
was not chosen by the Board of Control as the president?
P:Well, I think he was certainly disappointed. How much so, I
couldn't say, but uh, I think general idea around, it was a
disappointment to him.
K:O.k., let me ask you how long you stayed in the position of
auditor and when you moved on to your next assignment.
P:Well, I had these things in just about ten year periods.
P:In 47, uh, Mr. Graham named me as title of comptroller actually
there wasn't a great deal of change in duties, but he did
give me that title.
K:Was there any difference in your responsibilities?
P:Uh, well, not that I could pinpoint particularly.
K:Was that a general time of...
P:The, the growth of the university of course, along at that time
had uh, had made a greater volume of responsibility. But as
for any different assignments or duties, uh, I can account
for very little, except growth.
K:How much in terms of numbers did the business office grow in
those first years after the Second World War?
K:Or, or was that the time when the great growth in the
particular office occurred?
P:Well, I saw two periods of growth in my time here and you can
easily see these. I'd say 1936, when what we termed the
World War I babies reached college age.
P:1918, 1936. The second one was in 19..., well, the spring of
1946, immediately after World War II, when the students and
the veterans from the service returned to college. Uh,
well, from 1936 on there was a, in 1936, quite a growth
then, expansion, more students, almost double then what the
previous enrollment had been. And, beginning of World War
II, 1941, 1942, then noticed a downgrade for, until 1946.
Young men right out of high school going into service. Uh,
1944, 1945, first part of 1945, had the uh, officers
training, the army came in with their group. That, that was
a tremendous expansion right, almost over night. Uh, they
were assigned course the dormitories, cafeteria, uh, they
went out course later in 1945 and the 1946, the spring
semester was when the returns started. Those were the great
K:Let me stop, cause I have to.........[tape change]
K:Let me ask you a few questions about what you just have been
speaking about now, about the was era and right after. Was
there anyone in the administration that you know of who had
any real idea of the growth that was going to take place
when uh, the GIs came back after the war as well as the
normal high school graduate population? Did anybody predict
P:I don't think they predicted it to the extent that it reached.
P:Uh, let's see, that's about the time that Dr. Tigert was
retiring and just before Dr. Miller came in, uh, now as to
the expected growth the expansion, I don't know what advance
knowledge they may have had about this. At least it didn't
trickle down to me to that extent.
K:Uh-huh. Do you remember who would have been, if any one or two
people would have been the motivating or the moving powers
behind the acquisition of all, what we call the temporary
buildings some of which are still around today and the pre-
fab buildings that became the Flavet villages?
P:Yes, Uh, I think that uh, one that went after those was George
Baughman. He was just out of the navy and uh, quite a
promoter, and he came immediately after well, I think either
Thanksgiving or Christmas of 1945, right after peace'd been
Fighting stopped. He had been working with Mr.
Graham uh, for some years I think, getting back here. He
graduated from the university, fact he was teaching in
business administration I believe when he was called in the
service. Uh, he went after the and was responsible for
those, temporary, moving those temporary buildings in, most
of some were from Lake City.
P:And, uh, I don't know where else, there were some others
though. We got a lot of em from Lake City. Moved in here.
Blanding, Blanding, think those two places.
P:And uh, he was a promoter of those, Flavets I and II.
There was, I believe, uh, both a dormitory area and
trailer park set up at the, what they call the Alachua
Airbase. Is that where the Gainesville airport is now? Or
is that a different site?
P:Yes, yes, same site.
K:That is the same place?
P:Barracks that were out there...
K:Uh-hm. Do you remember yourself ever being there while it was
used for that purpose?
P:Only just to go through it. I didn't have any, any business
transactions out there.
P:Except to go through and see the set up and all.
K:Do you know if that was the only off-campus facility of that
type or were there others in the Gainesville area?
P:That's the only one the university was connected with that I
K:Uh-hm. I see.
P:I know...they had to...course they were using the airbase out
there uh, they had the barracks and everything and uh, the,
the set up was the university used that uh, for housing, I
think mostly married housing.
K:Uh-hm.. Do you remember if there was any opposition at all
within the administration, that you ever heard of, to the
idea that the university should get into the married housing
business? Or did they just realize that that was something
they would have to do?
P:As far as I know, there something that, after consideration and
discussion they decided they had to. Ah, as for any
opposition, I, I never heard it.
K:Mm hm. How long did you continue to hold the job title of
P:Another ten years.
K:And then what job did you take over?
P:Ahh assistant to the business manager...
P:That was at that time [William] Ellis
bring the business managers up...
K: mm hm.
P:...uh Mr. Baughman followed Mr. Graham...
P:...and uh he left in 1955, I
business manager.... And
think, 1956, Ellis Jones was
uh 1957 my title was assistant to
the business manager....Another uh man
accounting and uh that end of it.
[LOUD KNOCKING HERE ON TAPE]
K:I should ask you when Mr. Graham retired.
P:I believe it was the first of 1948.
K:About the same time that Dr. Tigert did?
P:Shortly after Dr. Miller came.
P:He stayed through that transition and then
been here forty one,
think since 1905,
[inaudible] know, maybe not quite
two--forty three years he
that long....but uh forty
uh was here....
K:Would you tell us something about Mr. Graham,
years that that you worked for him? What kind of a man
P:Mr. Graham was uh treated the university money more carefully
than he treated his own...
We had better
P:...he was more careful with it--more conservative!
P:Ahh, he tried to get a hundred and ten
cents worth out of every
P:...uhh but what he did was solid. And I certainly admired the
man's ability. He had
had a loud voice...
P:And he used it!
a-a loud--he was
a little man--but he
P:[laughter] Uhh but his
just as big as
P:But again as--as doctor--as I said about
--uh he was
the University of Florida--the
He was a Rotarian and handled the Rotary
Loan fund for students--he was treasurer of that...
P:...and he spent a good deal of time with that. But it was with
the idea of really helping needy students...
P:...with Rotary Loans.
But he wanted that money paid back too!
As he often said, the time to get that repaid uhh was when
you made the loan--he was very careful about--about that....
P:But I-I really grew to love the man. And uh had the utmost
respect for him.
K:Did he retire when he did simply because of uh his age? Or did
he feel that perhaps with a new administration that maybe
someone else should take over, or what?
P:Both, I think. He never was in real good health. He was
crippled and twisted all over with arthritis.
P:He was bent over, he--uh he had been everywhere in the United
States --Hot Springs and White Sulphur Springs trying to get
relief, uhh which of course rheumatoid arthritis, there's no
cure for. But he battled this thing under extreme physical
difficulties. But he never lost his mental ability.
P:Uhh we --we got going to at least once a year--to the business
officers association meetings. Southern Association. Oh,
we went to New Orleans and Atlanta and of course,
Tallahassee and other smaller colleges around the state--
Rollins and Stetson here in Florida, others out of state.
And uh I went with him on many of those trips usually to
drive the car for him.
P:But uh he was highly respected and uh in fact, he was president
one term of that Southern Association of College and
University Business Officers...
P:Very highly in regarded college circles all over the South.
P:But uh in my opinion--there's none better.
K:How did operator as far as the people under him? In other
words, would he give someone a job and just expect that it
would be done and not uh be kind of looking over your
shoulder? Or did he try to keep his hand in everything as
it was going along?
P:I wouldn't say he was looking over your shoulder but uh he
wanted to review your work of
what you thought was right.
course after uh you'd done
P:And he might criticize it, sure, but he wouldn't be telling you
how to do that job until you had made a sincere effort to do
K:I see. Where was the business office located during your
career? In other words, when did it move out of Language
P:In 1950 when the present Tigert Hall was completed. We were
working at uh trying to get
the layout for that a year or
two before then. But when it was completed in 1950--it was
about May or June I think--we moved from Language Hall into
Tigert Hall and my section was the north end in the
basement, ground floor.
P:Cashier and all, at that time I had fifty-sixty people....
K:Were any of the business office functions ever in the temporary
building that was located directly to the east of Language
Hall? After the war--
P:East of language?
K:Mm hm, uh uh it's still there--it's between Matherly and
Language and I think it went up right after the war. And I
think it was used by the registrar. But were any of
functions ever in there?
P:I don't recall the registrar ever being anywhere except in
Language Hall and Tigert!
K:Well, I may be misinformed on that.
P:Uhh, uhh after the--let's see, the General Extension moved out
of Language Hall about 1937 when the Seagle Building was
P:The registrar's office occupied that...
P:Ahhh, I can't--remember them being in that uh temporary
building I won't say for certain I-I don't know
K:Well, I could well--
P:--If they were, it was not there long...
K:I could well be wrong-- on that
P:Because uh I know they moved into Tigert the same time we did--
K:I think you mentioned that a moment ago, you and Mr. Graham
were involved in the planning for part of--that part of
Tigert which was going to be used for the business office?
P:No, Mr. Graham uh had retired by that time--this was Baughman
K:But they did have you all talk with the architects--
P:Sure, very much. They did uh they consulted I think with all
the departments as to how much space they needed,
more area, uhh and what sections of the building were
assigned to each....
I said, were downstairs in the basement, business
manager, purchasing, personnel, were on the floor right
P:Registrar was at the other end of the building--I guess still
P:Uhh in between they had the uh IBM set up.
K:When did the uh the formal separation of the functions within
the business office such as personnel, and purchasing and
what-not come about? In other words, did they make those
distinctions at the time you started or did they split those
up as time went along?
P:Ahh, they were split up as time went along. I-I think the
greater part--well, some personnel functions were--were
split off before we left Language Hall.
P:And the purchasing, too. But it--it really uh materialized
after--or on the move to Tigert. When they had the space
P:That--that was I'd say would be the main breaking point.
P:You asked awhile ago about changing duties--there's one thing
that I--I this was just a natural outgrowth--it wasn't
particularly a change in duties --was a retirement system...
P:Now you have to give some history on that--1939, the
legislature passed the teachers retirement system.
only for high school, public school teachers...
P:...and uh certain employees. University faculty were not in it
in 1939. In 1941, the legislature they did open it up to
the university faculty were eligible employees. Optional.
Come in or stay out.
P:That time and for two years later the base--the--the maximum
salary that they could make contributions on was only
P:I think it was 1943 before they raised it to $1,500, even.
Well, in 1941 when it was opened up to the university I -I
got involved in that, finding out I didn't take it myself
but I had the option--I turned it down. $1,200, was all all
they figure your salary on. Wanted to retire that'd make a
difference how much you make, they wouldn't count but
$1,200. Uhh faculty were of course interested in it, a good
many of them and it was--I was assigned the duty and
responsibility of getting the information and being the--the
go-between, you might say, being the one to see, find out
about it, which I did, made a number of trips to
Tallahassee. Kept increasing, every two years they'd raise
it a little bit, 1945 they--they legislature adopted what
they termed the state officers and employees retirement
system, which took in all the hired help....
P:And that was--was no limit on that--it was your salary. Five
per cent. Teachers retirement system had two rates--one for
men, one for women, for each age that they went into it.
This was straight five per cent across the board. They
still had the two systems and, as I say, it was my duty and
my responsibility to keep up with all the changes and give
out information even have faculty meetings to present the
different plans, see it was optional, if they wanted in
they--it was re-opened every time...
P:Ones that had rejected it two years back now could come in if
they would pay their contributions...
P:For that period.
K:For that period.
P:Teachers system would even allow as much as ten years for out-
of-state service, provided it was with a state-supported
institution. Private institutions were not accepted, had to
be publicly supported. Well, you can imagine the constant
inquiry faculty--how much will it cost me if I do this, if I
don't do it, what will I get? How much will it cost me
under this plan? And practically the last twenty years of
my employment was put as much on retirement questions as on
K:Mm hm. I see.
P:So that--that was I'd say was a big change--
P:--in my duties.
K:And this continued then in the time after you became assistant
business manager, too?
P:Ehh, even more so.
P:They--1957 legislature, I think, uhh accepted social security
for the first time...
P:Up to that time state employees were not on social security.
With uh it being retroactive to the first of July of 1956..
Those who, course had to be paid but, in the state system
they took that contribution out of --contributions which had
already been made to the system--we didn't have to shell out
any more money--it was taken out of what we'd already paid.
By reducing the benefits from 2% to 1 1/2% for that period.
Of course one and a half from then on but picked up social
security. So it--it was really a developing process until,
when I left and it's much better now. Uhh was a
very good system. Uh when I felt you had to take your
average salary over the last ten years and now it's only
five which my own case would a made it a lot more [chuckle]!
The last five years were higher considerably than the
K:Did many of these advances or improvements in the pension
system--in the existence of a pension system, come about
through uh any lobbying or agitation on the part of the
administration here? Or at FSU? Or was this something that
the legislature just felt compelled to do?
P:In the beginning of it I think it was the public school
teachers in 1939
P:They got theirs in. Ehh and there's information and uh word
got around that they had a retirement system then I think
the agitation from the universities got under way in uhh uh
as to how much the presidents of the institutions took in
it, I couldn't say. But uh there was concern and interest
about the faculty having a retirement system. Well, they
had a pension system and as far as I know, it's still on the
books. Where well, an employee would have could retire on
two conditions--either thirty years continuous service at
any age or yeah thirty at any at any age.
Or twenty years
continuous service and be seventy years of age.
P:One-half the average salary of the last ten years. Well back
then the ten years average it might be $2-3,000.
K:This was in existence at which point?
P:This was I think started about--this before my time --about
1925 or 1927, one or the other.
K:That was the system in existence when you came to university?
K:Did that apply both to faculty and to staff?
P:Any state employees.
P:That was all they had.
K:So, you really had to be here a long time to get anything under
P:And you got one-half.
many of the people at the university, when
started here, were getting paid on a salary basis? And how
many were getting paid on an hourly basis, would you say?
P:Week, all the faculty and most of the uh regular employees were
on a monthly basis.
P:Yeah. It was only the well, the students--student labor--and
student assistants were on a monthly basis even but student
labor--might be working around like on the grounds or
something like that...
P:...uhh some of the maintenance employees--carpenters,
electricians--were on a hourly basis.
thirty-five cents an hour some of them.
K:Who passed out the paychecks when
you came here? Did you or --
or your immediate office have charge of that?
K:You did yourself?
P:I have done it month after month myself. I knew everybody on
K:Which period in your career were you doing that?
P:Oh, from beginning to at least through 1937....
K:Where did people go to get their checks? Did they come to your
P:We had a door fixed up what they call a Dutch door...
P:Ehh the entrance and that was often an interesting affair, too.
When I came checks were never or very seldom here on the
first day of the month or that last day of the month.
Sometimes they'd be as late as the tenth before we'd get
them. And prior to that time--I didn't uh I didn't get in
on this I'm told though that the checks were not made out in
Tallahassee until the Board of Control met. And they had a
standard date of the meeting of the I think the first Monday
after the tenth of the month which could be as late as maybe
the seventeenth before they'd meet.
Or it might be the
tenth or later. Uhh they were supposed when I --when I
started to be here on the first.
Now we had to make up the
payroll here, send it to Tallahassee, and they made up,
typed the checks there, that's before I was--computer...
P:...and returned them. And as I say it could be anywhere from
the first to the tenth, They --they had to change that board
meeting thing in the meantime. But they weren't always
here. So we never knew, you couldn't plan on getting your
check first day of the month by any means. And it was
constant inquiry of course at our place --checks in? When
will they be here?
K:So, whenever the checks arrived then you all had to stop
whatever you were doing and set up shop for passing them
P:Sort the checks out, get them in order--alphabetical order and
people come by, line up and hand out the checks.
K:Did anything have to be done to those checks in the way of a
K:At that time?
P:Yes, we had to take a receipt for them...
P:Of course we had those already made out all we do is hand them-
-we clip the receipt to the check.
P:And when they came to get the check, they had to sign the
receipt for it. Another thing we had to do for a long time-
-every employee had to sign a requisition for his, for that
check--next check. And we'd have those made out he'd sign
two things, sign a receipt for this check and sign a
requisition for next month's check!
K:Mm hm. Was that just to certify that he was still on the
payroll? That type of thing? Were they required to produce
any kind of identification or was it sufficient that you
knew people by sight?
P:Yes--that was sufficient, yes.
K:Uh huh. What--
P:We knew everybody.
K:What did people do if the checks did not come in for say, two
and a half or three weeks? Did--did merchants carry
everyone on credit?
P:They would, or if it was uh an emergency they uh the banks
would uh loan them. If they'd earned the money and knew it
was coming they'd loan them the money for a dollar or so.
K:So on a reduced loan basis but still on a regular loan basis--
P:I don't think it was long as --as three weeks but I've known it
to be ten to fifteen days they'd be late.
K:Mm hm. I see. How long did that practice of having everyone
come to one door as you said continue?
P:Well, I don't remember when we--we got out of that but uh I
think well, I know in the forties, at least, I got away from
that having them all come to the place by notifying the
dean's office the checks were there.
That is, a secretary
would come pick up the checks
give them out
At least it spread it out that far
K:Do you remember if that happened before the war or after the
P:I think it did.
K:Before the war?
K:I see. Umm you were here during the--the Depression both the
break in the Florida boom and the national Depression. Did
the salaries at the university uh were they cut back at all
because of the Depression?
P:Yes. They certainly were.
P:In 1931, uhh I don't remember the amount of the state
appropriation, I can't recall that, but the salaries
cut 6% uh everybody receiving $1,800
no cuts below $1,800, in 1931.
P:In 1933, there was a
further reduction in the appropriation
everything across the board was cut 10%.
K:Mm hm. Were there any more than those two reductions?
P:No, those were the only uh regular salary cuts.
P:Uhh that lasted for most of them
for at least
for his college and let them
P:I think uh I-I recall one figure--I think I'm right in this--
that the state appropriation in 1933 for the educational and
general budget, this didn't include the ag experiment
station or the ag extension, the education and general--
That was the--1933,--33'--1934--1935
budget, two years a two-year appropriation
P:When I left the university the budget of the business office
alone was more than that!
K:Was anyone actually fired or laid off because of the Depression
or did the cuts suffice, the reductions in salary?
P:I think the cuts sufficed--I don't know of any being laid off,
there may have been attrition may have take care of a lot of
it but uh not any outright dismissals.
K:Were employees, either faculty or staff,
vacation when you started?
P:Yes. They got a vacation.
K:Two weeks or do you remember?
P:Uhh at one time I can't say when this came about--at one time
you were allowed two weeks vacation and two weeks sick
leave--a year. And if you weren't sick, you could take the
vacation, take it as vacation.
K:And that applied to both faculty and staff?
P:Uhh I don't know. See might be some different provisions for
P:Because most of them were on nine months. Uh how they worked
that out I really don't know. Uh of course many of them
stayed on summer school. If they taught summer school, they
got extra compensation for that.
P:So I-I don't know whether the faculty actually had very much of
a policy on vacation and sick leave. I think the second or
third year that I was here I took a month's vacation
considered uh I say four weeks considered as a two weeks
vacation. I hadn't been sick so I took two weeks and was
out of the office a month. That's the only time it ever
happened. I-I didn't get anymore--couldn't!
K:Were the uh--I take it then that the uh staff members for the
most part were on a regular twelve month basis from the time
that you started here?
P:Yes, secretaries, the administrative uhh the administrative,
professional we call it...maintenance, staff, electricians,
regular electricians- librarians, they were all twelve
K:Were people encouraged, especially say maintenance people and
what-not, to take uh whatever time they had coming during
the summer when the--the enrollment would be way down, when
there would only be the people attending the summer school?
P:Not particularly, during the summer is when they uh when uh
their work or circumstances uh permitted...
P:Uhh I always had to try to arrange mine [chuckle] around when
they the other half wanted to be off...
P:The key people, you know, and they'd be--we try to work that
out but uh I frequently couldn't go at the time I most
K:Mm hm. How about insurance plans? When did the university
first start to offer group plans or group deals to their
P:I think it was probably in the 50s...
P:Umm I was on uh uh faculty committee with Bill Howard, the
present city commissioner here working on uh uh
P:There were some individual plans, of course, uh one man here I
know kind of took it upon himself to form a group and he
went around collected uh but this was not a university plan.
That was probably the beginning of it...
P:Uhh proposals were made by two--two companies. Well, I guess
the head of that though Howard and his--he was chairman...We
asked for quotations from several hospitalization insurance
companies --Gulf Life, Independent, to uhh I don't know if
Prudential got into it or not but uh some of the larger
ones, had them submit bids on what they proposed. And uh
some people were already in professional they didn't want to
change. Gulf uh in the early 60s I know had most of the
coverage--there were still some few. Beginning though the
deductions for hospitalizations for insurance were not made
on the payroll. They had to pay them individually. Uhh
later they got that through, where they could make uh
deductions by payroll and that--that was the way they really
spread. But uh I-I'd say it was the late 1950s before that
really got organized.
K:Mm hm. Did you have much to do in your official capacity with
the beginnings of the campus credit union? Or did the
business office have much to do with the credit union--?
P:This Mr. Wingate that I mention--Homer Wingate--
P:--the auditor of the auxiliary activities handled that. I
think I was a charter member of it, but I didn't personally
have anything to do with the organizing.
P:He handled everything at his desk [chuckle] and up there in the
P:I was on credit committee two or three years. But that was all
I had granting, passing on loans. But uh organizing I-I
didn't have--that's about the mid-30s I think.
K:But there was no official relationship, it was just that uh he
and whoever else from the business office who--who worked on
that were really doing that on their own time?
K:Did--you mentioned--let me put a fresh tape in--
[END OF TAPE A-SIDE 2]
K:In talking before about the uh move from Language Hall to
Tigert Hall--we talked a little bit about the divisions
within the business office--and I also wanted to ask you if
in going into much larger quarters, you were able to and
decided to, because of that, uh begin new procedures or
acquired new perhaps business machines or anything or that
nature? In other words, did you start doing anything
differently at that time? Were there any big changes in
P:Uhh yes, when we moved into Tigert Hall, the IBM set-up
expanded considerably with uh more and uh more up-to-date
P:Uhh the personnel department did expand considerably--that was
they took over just a little bit of the uh of what--I don't
say took over, but they worked more closely with payroll
P:...as uh more that they had been,
because being adjoining
related the same things appointments, go on
P:They worked a little closer there. Accounting, purchasing uh
became more developed.
P:Uhh Jack Reeves was then the purchasing
And he had
They uh they got that more refined as
to uh receiving bids--fact,
some of it was
even required by
state law uh Board of Control regulations
P:than it had been....uhh there--there was growth and expansion
and development in all of these, the accounting more uh uh
got to be handled more by computer...
P:...than uh manual machine capable of doing.
P:A good deal more; payrolls were used to be typed manually and
put on computer.
P:And to save time and expense further down the line you had of
course back in those days the computer had to have the IBM
cards instead of tape--
P:Well, we made the cards here for preparation and payroll we'd
also send the same card on to Tallahassee and they could use
it up there to prepare the warrant....
P:So it was--it was being developed all the way down the line.
K:When did some of these branches of the business office began to
expand out of Tigert--such as into the Hub or uh purchasing
into Johnson Hall? Can you give me any rough dates on that?
P:All I can tell you it's done after 1966 when I left. It wasn't
--it wasn't before that.
K:Before that all the--the basic functions of the business office
that you had always known were still in Tigert?
K:Uh huh. I see.
P:The only thing over there in Building E was the post office--
had that right on the east end of the building E...
P:But uhh of course now the Hub now these other auxiliary
activities --the uh the uh bookstore and all that was down
there but uh I don't know what they have in there now. But
when I left, 1966, it was still all up there in Tiger Hall
so it's been there since then.
K:When you came here in
1923 and started to go to school where
did a student go to pay his fees--to pay his tuition?
P:Uhhh It was not the music building but was--it was the
K:What they call now the Women's
P:Yeah, I guess so.
K:The brick building?
P:The brick building!
P:Back of uh well it was down there beside the old wooden
But it was a brick building. That was
where we went to pay the
P:Went around that thing....
K:Do you remember how long that they did it there? Or did they
ever move it into Anderson?
P:Oh, we've had it all over the campus.
P:Uhh had it there in--in uh Anderson. Had it in the--the wooden
gym, set up there. Even had it in the--the last few years
that I was handling it was in the new gym--Florida Field--
Florida Field gym.
P:Take the crowd over there and uh well we even put on some extra
help during registration...
P:They had stalls built for the tellers and uh we'd have all the
checkers out in the line to check the students fee cards,
see what they had to pay if they could get the check made
out out there, make out the check then when you got to the
window all they had to do was--was turn it in and uh get
their card validated...
P:Uh we had four or five tellers and four or five checkers out
K:Just to speed things up a little bit?
P:Speed things up!
P:Open there early in the morning till, I try to get around and
help them check out some of the deposits, checks, and cash
and everything and get them out of there. Even opened
sometimes uhh I remember after we went to Tigert Hall one
time well two or three registrations at least open on Sunday
P:Well, that was not for registration, but to this cash deposit,
students come up right at the first of the--the term with a
lot of money--checks, cash--uh they could put their money in
the--we called it cash deposit -- they could come there to
draw it, you couldn't write checks on it I guess they still
do. Uhh Sunday afternoon we'd open up for uh Sunday before
uh regist--uh fee paying started Monday. Uhh open on Sunday
afternoon and take those deposits
K:Just so they wouldn't have to have that money on them
P:Right. And the next day they'd take one of those slips, see,
they would accept that to pay the fees.
K:I see. Could you tell us a little bit about any services which
the business office performed for the athletic association
during the years that you were in the business office?
What--what sort of paper work you would've done?
P:Uhh well, it didn't any of that come into my division but uh
Mr. Graham I think some of the other business managers too
were on the athletic committee or board. And uh Mr. Graham
I know had uh well he had to sign, he was treasurer, he had
to sign checks for them. And uh he usually had uh maybe a
part-time employee that the Athletic Association hired--he
was not on our payrolls.
P:Uhh to keep the records for him. But uh that being a separate
corporation that didn't get into my bailiwick so uh but I
know that was a general set-up that he handled and I think
the business manager of the university right on has--has had
more or less to do with it, the same thing either. Uhh
being on the board of the committee, but I think now at
least when I left all of their records were maintained in
the athletic office. But that was the way it was at
P:He-he being treasurer had to keep some records, but one of
their employees handled it
K:So it was really their operation that he was just to check on
it at the top? When you first came here did the university
business office handle the billing for either the library or
for the uh infirmary as--as far as either library fines or--
or uh student uh charges at the infirmary?
P:No, uh seems to me like the library and the infirmary were,
well prepared their own --I know they sent over some--some
bills and I believe those things went through the
registrar's office and were put on the student's record.
P:Uhhh I-I we didn't--I don't think we ever had any set-up in
our--in our office on those...
P:Don't recall that we did- But uhh I do know that I've heard in
a number of instances where a student wanted a transcript of
P:...from the registrar--and they write him back that he had to
pay so much either library fine or infirmary fine before
they'd give him a transcript.
P:And that course had to be paid at the office. But for setting
up an accounts receivable for that, I don't think we ever
K:Did the business office do the purchasing paperwork for the
P:Uhhh yeah --
P:-well, the majority of it, yes. Now she might buy some
vegetables off of a huckster come around, but uh main
purchases, receiving bids for quantity grocery purchases,
and issuing a purchase order--all purchase orders had to
come--be issued from the business office.
K:Right from the start?
K:I'd like to...go ahead...
P:And uh--uh business manager used to even sign those things
manually [chuckle] but of course he got away from that but
uh I had a good bit to do with that myself getting uh bids,
quotations, and issuing purchase orders before the
purchasing department really got in operation.
K:I'd like to ask you about the planning for the medical center
and if, in the course of that planning, the people in the
business office were consulted as far as setting up the
business operation down there?
P:That came about after Dr. Miller got here and he obtained a
$5,000,000 dollar grant from the Commonwealth Foundation in
the [inaudible] beginning of planning that money was kept in
the state treasurer's office uhhh He... a man -- a man down
here that uh spent ten years here at the university uhh
working up those plans getting the set-up started. As far
as the business office itself was concerned other that maybe
business manager uh it never got down into our area.
K:So if they did anything of that sort it was with outside
P:Yeah, they had outside architects, uh however it had to clear
through the board architect...
K:But I mean--I mean the business operation
know, their own uh--
K:--billing patients and what not.
P:the business manager.
K:They--they did talk with him?
K:Mr. Baughman, I guess, at that time?
P:Well, he left about that time, Ellis
involved in, you
Yes, he would have been in on it--some of it.
Uhh but Ellis
Jones uh really got it going.
K:From your own observations or from what you heard, which of the
presidents in your time do you think best understood the
business operation of the university?
Or is that an unfair
P:Well, I think I'd have to say Dr.
K:Because of his experience with uh
P:Yes, uh Dr. Tigert was uh more on the educational field...
P:Miller was and promoted that.
P:But I--I think I'd have to say Dr.
the financial end of it.
K:There's one more thing I wanted to ask you uhh you know there's
a--a short brick wall behind the uh the newer library
building --Library West along University Avenue? I wanted
to ask you if you remembered when that was built and the
circumstances around it? Whose idea it was or when it was
P:No, I sure don't.
K:Someone had mentioned to me that they thought that sometime--
one of the few times when there was a little money leftover-
-that that was an idea of Mr. Graham's. I thought maybe you
could check me on that.
P:Is this between Language and Science Hall?
K:Mm hm. In that span there.
P:I really don't know about that wall....
K:Well, that's okay.
P:I remember where they... the old Newberry Road
P:Uhh I remember when the city paved that road--that was I think
the [inaudible] university had to, the state had to pay $25-
30,000 to the city for paving that section.
K:Well, that's about all the prepared questions I had for you.
Is there anything you'd like to add that--that maybe we
haven't covered that you would like to?
P:Well, I can't think right off hand of any...Talking bout
salaries often being late uhh bills, payment of bills,
travel, anything else used to have to be approved by the
board in session.
K:I said they'd meet the first Monday after the tenth. No bills
got paid but once a month other than these auxiliary
activities whose funds were kept here and the business
manager signed checks on that. We had to prepare
P:Make up a voucher, four copies. Uhh to the pay, list out the
date of the invoice, the rest of it the--copy the invoice on
to that voucher. Made a tremendous tangle along the invoice
uhh it was approved by the business manager and the
president, sent to the Board of Control and apparently from
the best we could ever figure out they divided those things
up between different board members and they were--what they
P:What they were paying for. And then sent on to the controller,
the state controller issued the state check, warrants. But
uh that was the way bills were --were paid then.
K:When did they get away from that?
P:Oooh, I'd--sometime in the late 30s. Uhh in the Depression
days in the real Depression days 1934 or 1936 or 1937
sometimes there was as much as six months delay on a bill
being paid. Uhh they would pay--they paid salaries they
might be a few days or ten days late --they paid salaries.
They paid postage- they paid feed for animals...
P:They paid travel.
P:But if a chair or a desk or lab supplies or anything were
purchased it might be six months before that bill would get
paid. And as I told that girl in that other interview I
don't remember the year but when old Alfred I Dupont died,
some of the state officials went to--the executors I don't
know where it was Ed Ball, I guess it was. But the
executor, and got an advance I think, a couple a million
dollars on the estate tax.
Paid up all the state bills.
P:caught up on. But that was an advance on the whole tax.
K:And after that you didn't get into that situation--
P:They got behind a few more times but uh that was the main
bailing out deal there....
K:Let me explain to you now what we do with this--after we have
it uhh the copy typed up, the transcript, we send it back to
you. So that you can go over it and make sure that what's
down there is what you said and if uh the typist has put
down a wrong first name or something, or perhaps you think
of a first name we couldn't think of, we ask you to make any
correction like that, any error of fact and then after that
we ask you to send it back to us. And we have a final draft
editor go through it and put it in--
P:Correct English [chuckle]
K:--correct form so that [inaudible] run on sentences and we take
out all the uhs and the hands and things like that. So it
looks like a lot better when we get down with it. Then we
send it back to you and we ask you to sign a legal release
so that we can put the final copy of it in the library with
the rest of these, so, it'll probably be coming back to you
in a couple of months.
P:Well, that umm lady I believe her name was Miller?
K:Yes, Joyce Miller.
P:I never did see any copy on that at all.
K:We have a copy--
[END OF TAPE 75B-SIDE 1]