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SAMUEL PROCTOR ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM at
the University of Florida
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA
INTERVIEWEE: DENNIS KEITH "DUTCH" STANLEY
INTERVIEWER: BOB JOHNSON
DATE: July 25, 197
J: This is an oral history interview, July 25, 1974. We are in the Florida Gymnasium on the
campus of the University of Florida. This morning I am going to speak with Professor
Dennis Keith Stanley -- better known as "Dutch" Stanley -- Dean Emeritus of the College
of Physical Education and Health here in the University of Florida.
Dean Stanley, you were born when and where, sir?
S: I was born on April 14, Easter Sunday; my birthday came on Easter that time, in Alesbury,
J: Where is that in England?
S: It is about sixty miles out of London, east or west of London, depending upon how you orient
yourself when you are there. And, I might say simply that I do not want to go back.
J: You have never been back?
S: Yes, I went back last summer, and took my wife, June. We took the train and located the little
house. It was a row house. I gave the taxi-driver the address; he took me right out to
Number Thirty Stocklake, and so I found it and I took some pictures of it. As I went to
get back into the taxi, I discovered that I had not taken the cap off the camera. It would
have been a great thing if I had traveled three thousand miles and taken that kind of a
picture. But I got back out of the taxi and took pictures of it, and I am very glad I did.
We came, that is to say, we immigrated, a family of seven, to Canada. My father was
public health officer. We went to Winnipeg, Manitoba where we spent, oh, I suppose,
maybe a couple of years, and then moved to Fort William, Ontario, which is now called
Thunder Bay on the northern shore of Lake Superior. I spent a great deal of my boyhood
We moved to Umatilla, Florida, when I was about twelve, got there on Halloween which
was a bad time for traveling anywhere you go. I lived in Umatilla and went to grade
school in Umatilla for several years and then we moved to Tampa.
J: What were your impression of Florida? I know you came over from England to Canada, then
all of a sudden you are in a southern state. Do you recall how you felt about it? It was
rather a small town, I know.
S: Well, you I agree. Coming from that kind of cold country to Florida did not agree with my
physiology because I was sick for a week, had to get acclimated.
I believe I was in the eighth grade, or the fourth form as we called it in Canada. You
know a few things stand out in your memory. One of the things was that it took me the
better part of the year and three or four lickings before I found out that Canada did not
really win the War of 1812!
I enjoyed southern people. The outstanding thing about southern people that impressed
me was that when you happened to be around about suppertime they would invite you to
supper, or invite you to eat at anytime. This was unheard of at home, because at home, in
Canada, you like to get prepared and have something special. But this interested me and
always has -- the hospitality of the southern people. To one coming for afar, I think it is
the first thing you notice, the informality of being friendly, and this has been great.
J: Did your father remain [in] the same profession when he came to Florida?
S: Yes, he did, he worked in Tampa. The he worked in Palatka, but that comes later.
While we were in Tampa, when I was seventeen, my mother died.
I went to high school in Tampa, and I worked at the Tampa Tribune almost the entire
time I was in high school. I worked in the mailing department, where you work all night
wrapping newspapers, and go to school in the daytime. So few people know that
newspapers largely have to rely upon a bunch of little kids for the distribution. Not so
much now, but it used to be. So you go to the mailroom, and you see a lot of little kids
getting mail out.
Well, I did that, and went to old Hillsborough High School, which was at that time the
only high school in the city. Then in the summertimes, I began to work for a surveyor,
because I thought I wanted to be a civil engineer. I worked for an engineer by the name
of Henry Freeman, who was an alumnus, a fine gentleman.
I had been engaged in athletics, and I made the all-state team, and Henry Freeman asked
me if I would like to go to Florida. I said, "Well, I would like to go anywhere." In those
days they were not recruiting like they do now; maybe an alumnus or a fraternity man
would say something and lend you a little money. So Henry Freeman gave me a few
bucks and put me on a train, and I came to Gainesville on the train. The roads were not
so good then, 1924. I suppose I was met at the train and bunked somewhere, but I cannot
Interestingly enough, while I was on the train, a person from one of the outside schools
invited me to go with him, because this was where he was going and he had been
apparently sent down to pick me up. This was all strange to me, because I had never
been to the University of Florida. Few high school boys in those days visited universities
because the gap was not only geographical but philosophical. You just did not go.
J: How did your family think about this? Was your father very strong about you becoming an
S: My father never saw a football game till he snuck out there one day and saw it. I was the
youngest of seven, and so my parents were quite old, comparatively speaking, during my
childhood. My father did not know anything about it; he slipped out one day and saw it
and then he was not much interested in it. He was sort of the old, completely
unreconstructed Englishman, getting along in the phase of life.
[He] never became an American -- there is a story -- he did not get naturalized until later,
and I will put that in sequence of a kind.
Now, I think I have arrived at the university. Have you any questions from this point?
J: I can think of a lot of things. What was Tampa like in those days? This engineering firm,
what did Freeman do? Was it reads, canals?
S: Mr. Henry Freeman, a civil engineer, had organized his company. As I recall, the first job we
had was making a topographical survey of the area immediately south of the old Bellaire
Hotel near Clearwater, and that was a wilderness. We worked for the Florida Landscape
Engineering Company at St. Petersburg; I was on the surveying crew that summer, and
that is where I knew Henry Freeman.
J: So it was a very underdeveloped area down there.
S: It was underdeveloped. As a matter of fact, we ran what you would call a bench mark, that is
an elevation, from the middle of Clearwater out to where we were. It was about four
miles and about three of it was underdeveloped -- you had to whack your way through
palmettos with bushhooks and machetes, and look out for rattlesnakes and so on.
We worked from five o'clock in the morning till two o'clock in the afternoon to escape
the heat back int he woods. So it was quite warm out.
J: Was Tampa trying to promote a tourist industry in those days, or was it just trying to develop?
S: Well, this is interesting because the first tourists were known as "Tin Can Tourists". They
were people who came down with little vans and little reconverted automobiles. There
was a place, I believe called Palmetto Park ... I am not quite sure where the group of
"Tin Can Tourists" came. I saw them in the background just a little bit. But, nothing
Yes, they did not try, as I recall, to develop tourism. Tourism sort of developed itself --
they came and then they told their neighbors and then they came.
But Tampa, in those days, was dominated by the cigar-making industry. This was the
town of Tampa, Ybor City. And shipping, of course. Apart from that, there was not too
much. I do not know the population, and I have forgotten the circulation of the old
Tampa Tribune, but I used to thing it was a bigger area because we were wrapping papers
J: You came up to Gainesville in 1923, did you say?
S: I graduated from Hillsborough High School and came in 1924.
J: Rather small town, of course.
S: Well, there were probably 1,800 to 2,000 students at the university, as I recall. I think maybe
Gainesville would have had, oh, 6,000. All down Main Street was a little, narrow, red-
brick cobbled street. Thirteenth Street did not have an overpass, went down in the
hollow and came back up. Most of the roads in Florida, in those days, were about nine-
foot brick roads, all single lane. Most everywhere you wanted to go was single lanes.
J: You do not recall where you stayed when you first came here?
S: I left out a chapter. Back up. From Umatilla I moved to Ocala, and I was in the eighth grade
This is interesting because I went out for the football team, never having seen a football.
I only weighed 105 pounds, and I went out for football. Colin English, late state
superintendent of education, was my first coach. He then was on the faculty at Ocala
High School. The determination of how I got started playing was: they counted out two
teams and there was one position left and I was left, and he said, "You play end." And so
I played end.
J: Did ever since.
S: Yes. In the first game of football I ever played, I did not know the rules. I just knew you
blocked and tackled and caught the ball. And we did play Hillsborough High School,
who then were a whacking big team.
I made several great friendships off that team, one of whom was Guy Colado, who died a
few years ago, and was at one time president of the State Association for Physical
J: Was he in Orlando, at Orlando High?
S: Winter Park. He was an elementary school teacher and then an elementary school supervising
He was Spanish, but he was one of the fairer Spaniards, not the dark-type Spaniards. He
and I got to be good friends. We had a few common interests there; this big robust guy
was interested in, and loved little children.
This is an interesting thing; I see it happen so much. quite often we do find some big,
strong tough football players who love children and who will go in their off time into
elementary school. A perfect example of this is Guy Dennis. Guy will go down, when
he comes back from football, and get a part-time job in elementary school. He looks like
the Pied Piper leading these children.
Then from Ocala, I moved to Tampa and got on this big team who had beaten the
daylights out of us the year before. There I weighed 145 pounds. And when I came to
the University, I weighed about 150.
J: that was a big jump in weight, from 105.
S: Yes, and then when I played my freshman year, I weighed 165; then I went to 178 to 180,
which is as much as I ever weighed.
J: That was a pretty good weight in those days, though. Men were not as large in those days as
they are now.
S: I would not say,k not as many big ones. There were some big people, but not as big as they
are now. For pro football, I think they need to be tremendously big. For college football,
they do not.
J: Are you talking about in those days or the present time, as far as size?
S: For college football, I would rather have a 200 to 210 pound tackle than a 240 pound tackle,
either way, offensive or defense. Now maybe I am wrong; I played three years "all" of
the game. But one of the greatest football teams I ever helped coach was the Rose Bowl
Team of 1945, and our line ran about 200 to 210. When 1928 came around, the line was
round about 200 to 205. I was the lightest man on the team.
That was a little date I wanted to put in, but now we are back at the University.
J: How many buildings were there?
S: I remember Peabody, because that is where I had most of my classes, and then Reid Hall
which was the old original engineering building which was immediately behind.
Anderson Hall used to be called Language Hall; I had classes there.
J: Were you taking engineering courses, or was there a general curricula?
S: I was taking some general education. I took some math, geometry, and trigonometry, and
then I got into calculus, and I found that I was trying to remember math instead of
I always liked to write things and when I was with the Tampa Tribune I participated in ..
We used to have a national high school basketball tournament. Our team was state
champion and I was captain of the basketball team. So I went to Chicago and I wrote up
the tournament for the Tampa Tribune; I was the correspondent. And the I turned to
journalism. I still like to write, and it interested me very much, but all the time,
underlying it, I found that I like sports and I wanted to be a coach.
I finally decided that was what I wanted to be. Then Dr. E.R. Salt, who is retire from my
faculty now, Dr. E.C. Davis, who returned from Penn State and moved to Southern Cal,
and one or two more people influenced me very much to go into physical education as
well as coaching.
J: These were physical education persons?
S: The were physical educators, yes.
The other two people who had profound influence on me were the former coach and dean
and judge, Tom Sebring, Harold Sebring and Coach Charlie Bachman -- of course,
Wallace Wade, too. Those three people gave me a great deal of background knowledge,
and philosophy that I carry.
J: What was Coach Bachman like?
S: Bach, he is just a great guy. He is the He was a perfectionist. He was a person
knew a good athlete when he saw him; he had a real good mind, a good football mind,
and football. He was a well-informed man. When I succeeded him, he went to
coach at Michigan State, which was known then as a cow college, and he developed the
first Michigan State football team that ever beat Michigan. They retired him a number of
years later with great honor.
He now lives down in South Florida, at one of the beaches there, Pompano. He not too
long ago wrote a new book which he calls the Z Formation. It is quite a book. Now, that
is some person.
J: Who else, here now, really influenced you, we could talk about a little bit?
S: Another person that I remember vividly was Brady Cowell, who was my freshman coach.
Brady Cowell was freshman football coach for years, at one time, varsity basketball
coach. He moved on to Stetson, I believe, as basketball coach and the athletic director.
Brady later came back and got his master's degree in my college. And he was a great
Following him, I had Tom Sebring, who folks know as Judge Sebring. He became one of
the judges in the Nuremberg trial. He was in the legislature here, then became dean of
the Stetson Law School. He died while he was still dean of the law school. Tom was a
great friend of mine.
Some of the people here in Gainesville who have influenced me in a very good way are
Senator Bill Shands, who was a dear friend, and his daughter, Elizabeth, who was a dear
friend of my wife. Pat Keeter, who recently died, was also a good friend. I remember
buying my first Ford. It cost $700 and I paid for it like you pay for groceries,
And then "Uncle" Sam Dell, father of Attorney S.T. Dell, was a great friend of
mine, as was Mr. Will Pepper, who was the original owner of the Gainesville Sun. Those
men used to sit down on the Village Square on the benches; and any time you wanted any
advice, you go to see Uncle Sam, you drop by to see Will Pepper, and whoever you
wanted to see. They used to dish out good advice, and they were very good to me. I
have had a lot of good friends.
J: What about Colonel Yon, did you ever have any contact with him?
S: Everett, of course, was one of my very dear friends. Everett came along later, was here as
director of athletics and P.M.S. & T. Captain Yon, he was a captain.
J: I see, an army officer.
S: And he was the director of athletics. You see, the army was really very influential in getting
football started here. Everett was athletic director, and some of the people would help
out coaching some. As a matter of fact, General Van Fleet, when he was here, was head
football coach, and he was a great one. Everett, the athletic director, gave athletes a little
money to live on. They did not have any organized contributing group. People just gave
a little money, or you would have a job.
Brombaugh Crabtree and I used to sweep out the Florida Gym, that is the old guy, which
is now the Music Department. The old wooden building was called the new gym for
many years. We lived in the corner of it, and we swept it out and tried to keep it clean,
and had one room. We did not have any bathing facilities. We had a daily bath after
football practice in the varsity room, and we shaved and all that down there in a public
toilet and cold water. We thought we were all pretty good football players, but that is the
best that we had and we were glad to get it.
Among faculty, I would say that Dean Walter Matherly was one of the outstanding
teachers I have had in my life --fine man, real smart person. Dr. Jim Norman was a great
one; Dr. Farr, the vice-president... Dr. Tigert was a pretty able man, also.
J: How did Dr. Tigert feel about the football team?
S: Dr. Tigert was a devotee of football. He was a great athlete himself. He was an all-southeast
and all-southern conference football player, and I think he was the souther conference
tennis champion. And then, of course, he went to Oxford. He is the man who created the
grant-in-aid; thought it up, revised it, took it to the southeastern conference, and had it
approved. He is the father of the grant-in-aid.
He was a good friend of mine. I remember my last year when I decided I would give it
up because pressure was coming. He and Mrs. Tigert came out to my house one Sunday
afternoon. We discussed the situation and he said, "Now look, I am not going to let them
get rid of you. I can lick this thing, and I will do it if you want me to."
I said, "Do not do it, it will hurt everybody, it will not get me any money. My staff does
not have much chance. You look after my staff."
He said, "I will." Then he said, "I will stop it."
I said, "No, it is best for everybody concerned to accept my resignation," and "I
appreciated it very much."
J: What was this in connection with?
S: My leaving my schedule.
So, I say, I went then into journalism. We had, first, only three journalism classes.
Feature Story Writing was one; I cannot remember the others, but our teacher was O.K.
Armstrong, who was quite a fellow. He later went to the Midwest and became a
legislator out there, but he was our first and only journalism teacher. So journalism was
not new in this end -- this was 1927.
Then, of course, I went into the College of Education, and I went to Penn
State later, where I took master's in physical education.
J: Physical education. Let us talk about that 1928 team just for a minute. That was probably the
team while you were there? 1928 season?
S: Well, yes up to that point. Of course, I think it was the best team that we had at that point.
J: This was Coach Bachman?
S: Yes. Well, as a matter of fact, three of the second-string backfielders -- the next year made
all-southern. So, it was a pretty good football team. A weakness of the team was that
they had two outstanding backfielders, but they only had one quality line. From that
point things fell out of place, so but there was no reason why we should not
have gone on to win. Our only mistake that ... Usually these people, or
newspaper people would say But there comes a time when you just get
beaten. You were offered the game half a dozen times, and if you do not want it, then
Tennessee took advantage. Tennessee was undefeated, also, so we took a one-point
beating. But it was a tremendous team, and it was a team It was that simple.
People talk about players psyching themselves up in all sorts of ways. This team was not
psyched up. I do not believe a good athlete needs to psyche himself up. I think a good
athlete will go out and give the best he has got every time; sometimes his best is not as
good as the last time or the next time or the time before. But this foolishness about being
psyched up, to a good athlete, is wrong.
J: That is an interesting point, because that is all you hear about nowadays -- about getting up.
S: Getting up -- a man gets up all right. We were in whatever the grade our particular
physiology dictated, up for the game. Some way or other it does not matter -- some days
you cannot do anything right, and some days you cannot do anything wrong. And so, this
is what men are made of. It is to get on the old thing, the courage of the commonplace --
most people can get up once in a while -- the guy that will stay up.
J: You graduated in 1929 and you went up to Pennsylvania State. This is one year later.
S: During the time I was head coach.
J: You are ...
S: I went to Penn State to get a master's degree.
J: All right, in other words, when you graduated, you went over to Daytona Beach.
S: Yes, I did.
J: To Mainland, and then Andrew Jackson High School in Jacksonville. What brought you back
here to Gainesville? Did someone say, "Come back, we need you?"
S: No, I was...
S: Bachman had asked me to come. He had put Dale Van Sickle, who was the all-American
in 1928, on his staff. Dale then decided to go into the movies.
J: Was this the stuntman?
S: Yes. Dale was a Gainesville boy. So Bachman asked me to come here, which I did.
J: What was wrong with the Gators during the thirties and forties? Although you had a pretty
S: We had good teams. Most anybody would want to change it, but they were good football
teams. The when I came along, we fell off 00 we did not have material, we did not have
any money, we did not do much recruiting. But still we had a pretty good win season.
In three years, we won fourteen, lost thirteen and tied one. These days, that is called a
But there are some great friends I had, and I would not give that up for anything. We
were a young alumni coaching staff. Would you like to know how I got the job?
J: Oh yes.
S: Well, this is interesting. The Board of Control -- the Board of Regents was then called the
Board of Control -- decided that they wanted to rank you. Well, anyhow, the Board had
fired Bachman and his whole staff
J: Why was this, if I could ask?
S: Well, after the 1928, 1929, 1930, and 1931, Bach had a couple of bad years, so they decided
they were going to fire him, which they did. Fired the whole lot of them. I had just
gotten here, see I had only been there two years. So I supposed that I was fired too. But
one day I was over visiting Mr. Claude Lee. Mr. Lee was the manager of the Florida
Theatre, and was a big-shot of the town in those days. He was manager of the
Florida Theatre, and he also had some other responsibilities He had the news
from the Gainesville Sun in his hand. This was the afternoon paper then, also.
He says, "Well, do you want to know who the new coach is?"
I said, "Well, yes, I would be interested."
He said, "Well, it is you."
I said, "How is that?"
He said, "Well, you got appointed." So then I was notified that I was appointed the new
head coach. I was not asked -- I was told. And me and a young wife with a new baby, I
And then I was told that we were going to have an all alumni coaching staff; so we did. I
took Rainey Cawthon, and Ben Clemmons, and Carlos Proctor, and "Goof' Bowyer, and
that was our coaching staff. So we had a bunch of rookies -- all of us.
J: This was not only football; basketball, track and everything, was it not? An alumni coaching
S: Of course. I also coached track for two years, and then while I was here, I also coached
tennis, freshman baseball, and was director of intramurals. I worked for the WPA in the
summertime to supplement my salary, and did lots of things.
So that is how I got appointed, [and] that is how I got fired. I did not get fired, because I
resigned, but it was announced that I withdrew. It was a big story, because we were
playing North Carolina State in Tampa in 1935, The score was nothing to
nothing at the half. We played at the fairgrounds; so I went to another part of the field
and had my boys around in a circle getting ready to go through a half-time talk
Someone walked over and shoved a newspaper in my hand, and this
particular paper had a red sports sheet -- specials then had been announced "Stanley to be
replaced." That is how I found out, and my half-time speech consisted of handing the
paper to the football captain and walking off. And they scored fourteen points and beat
North Carolina State fourteen to nothing. And that is how I learned I was fired.
J: You learned you were hired from a newspaper and fired from a newspaper?
S: Well, it is an interesting thing anyway with one of my very good friends, Ed Ray, who was a
sports editor. He was simply reporting. Years after we were joking in somebody's
kitchen, and I told Ed.
He said, "I did not do it. I did not do it."
And I said, "Yes, you did."
The next day he thought of it and he said, "You are right, I did."
J: What was the point of this, if I could ask you, about leaving in 1939? Was it that the team
record ... ?
S: I would have to say that I committed the unpardonable sin, or we did, of winning too many
games the first year. We won, and then we dropped off, so that we were not having a
good third year. So then, always, what happens is look for the goat -- whether he is a
baseball manager, or a football coach. So, this is when I told Dr. Tigert that I would
resign It is the same all over the world. But you were in that business,
nobody twisted your arm, and you take the job. You win or you lose, and that is the way
you business people earn a way out. I think that, I do not
J: Were there contracts in those days?
S: I had a one year contract. See, when you ask an assistant coach who was just out of college
two years to take over the head coaching job, he does not work by a contract.
I was only twenty-six years old and I was head coach. So, we thought that it was a pretty
good job. I think it took about ten years and about two million dollars to beat it, because
after that came Bob Woodruff and Bob and it took about five years to rebuild,
which he did. So we did not do too badly and I am glad.
J: Yes, it is a record, I think, to be proud of.
S: Well, I have got some friends to be proud of
J: What took you up to Duke now? Did you have any connections at Duke when you got there?
S: No, I did not. The way I got up to Duke was when I stayed on as Josh Cody's assistant. When
they brought Josh in, he wanted me to stay, and I did. I had charge of physical education;
I stayed on as the end coach.
He hired a man named Louie Hardage, who recently died, who was a great back in the
old days, and he helped backfield coach. Louie was a friend of Wallace Wade's. Louie
told me that Wallace Wade was looking for an end coach.
I said, "Well, O.K."
He said, "Would you like an interview?"
I aid, "Well, I am not getting anywhere here, now." Josh said I could stay as long as I
wanted to. I said, "Yes."
So Wallace Wade sent me a telegram and asked me to come for an interview, which I
did. And I found that he did not do this to people. That was in the days of Duke having
Before I got there, they had a Rose Bowl team, and we had a Rose Bowl team and Sugar
Bowl while I was there. We won, I think, seven out of eight conference championships,
and that is a great team.
I admired and liked Wallace Wade because he was a great man. And he was.
J: So you were the end coach at Duke for seven years .. .?
S: No, well...
J: ... two years.
S: I coached the ends and what we used to call the flankbacks, offensively, and the
blockingbacks; and then I coached, at the same time, the defensive halfbacks. Then I was
also on the track coaching staff. That is what you had in those days; so you doubled up,
you coached several positions.
J: Did you play Florida in those years, a few times?
S: No, we never did play Florida.
When we went to the Rose Bowl, the two best teams in America went -- the best team on
the coast, and the best team from the rest of America. It was an old college
and so we got
J: So, you stayed there till 1946. Did you have anything during the war, or did you remain
S: I tried to get in the navy during the war, and I found I could not. Now, I made a mistake. I
almost got into the navy, I went to Raleigh -- that is when I had two children -- and I
decided that I had to go. My sister had gone as a nurse in World War I, two brothers
went into the army, and one was already in the navy. An English family is in the sort of
tradition -- when the war comes, you know, everybody goes to serve. I wanted to go.
So I went over to Raleigh, the recruiting headquarters, I noticed a bunch of young fellows
around, but it did not strike me much; I was forty, thirty-nine. This old grizzled Chief
Petty Officer said, "Mister, you do not want in here. This is the navy you are trying to
I said, "Well, let me out." I wanted in the officers training group. So I then went over to
Charlotte, and I found out that I did not see well, but I got glasses. I actually got a
commission, a senior lieutenancy, and was waiting to report when I got a letter from a
man, Lt. J.G. James Stewart, saying that I was not eligible, that a mistake had been made,
that I had not been naturalized seven years, which was a requisite.
My father, to go back to the story, had never been naturalized. One time my wife said
that you better get yourself naturalized, your dad is not going to do it. So I did, I went
out and got naturalized, [but] it had not been quite seven years. So I could not get in as
an officer. But a little while later I got a draft call; now they wanted to draft me. Well, I
was too old.
I said to myself, "I got a commission, but I was not good enough. But I was good enough
to get drafted. No, I will stay here and work where they just train other people. If I can
have my commission to which I am entitled, I will."
That was not quite fair, so I did not go, but I thought I did the next best thing. I was
ready to go. I was all keyed up. I was sort of ashamed, you know, in my family, because
J: Stayed at Duke till about 1946, I guess?
S: Seven years, and when I got back ...
One of my dearest friends was the late Sam Butz. Sam Butz was my friend when I was
an athlete and he was a sports editor with the Times Union; and he was for years, and he
later became managing editor. He was married to Ellen Pepper, the daughter of Mr. Will
Pepper, who was the owner of the Gainesvillle Sun for a while. Then he had cancer, and
I was up in Jax, I was on vacation, I think a Christmas vacation, and I used to go up with
Sam in the evenings, until he got off. Then we would go and have a few beers and talk,
and we would both go home. One evening, Henson Markham came up -- Henson was a
member of the Board of Control -- and he said, "Dutch, we are in bad shape here, as you
know, we have not won many games. We do not have anything. We are always
disorganized. Do you have any kind of a ... could you help us out?"
So I said, "Well, I think I can, Henson." So for two days, I sat down and wrote up a plan
of an organization for a division of intercollegiate athletics and physical education. I still
have the original prospectus.
So I went on back to think about it. I was called back and asked if I would accept the job
as head of a division, and if I were to write it up, and if I was in the meantime to go over
to Louisville to the National Coaches Meeting and hire them a head coach; which I did.
J: That is quite an order.
S: Wade did not know anything about it, because he was at the coaches meeting. I had to call in
and tell him I was going to quit and if it was all right. He said, "Fine. You go on. You
So I went over there and met Dr. Tigert, and we hired Bear Wolf. Well, there was a lot to
it. But as a result, I came down here, wrote a prospectus, got a steering committee of
deans of whom Dean Matherly was one, got that solved, and Dr. E.C. Davis, who was my
head professor at Penn State. We sat together and wrote up a prospectus for a division of
physical education. The last day with the last issue, Dean Matherly looked up
and he said "This ought to be a college." So I created the college -- first in America,
now there are thirty colleges and universities. This is the pioneer College of Physical
Education, Health, and Recreation.
J: Right. That is quite a feather in your cap.
S: Well, a lot of people do not know that, and this is what I contributed to education and to the
University. I became its first dean. Interestingly enough, I became head football coach
at $3,000 a year, and I became dean of the college at $6,000. Then I began to hire people
and we created this college, building it up into what you see now. And we fight for
everything we got like everybody else does.
Bear Wolf did not win any games for three years. That was the golden era boys that they
meet every year, you know. They won three years, they won one. We had to
let Bear go, then I had to look for another coach; and they employed Directors of the
Athletic Association, of which I was a member, and asked me to go find a coach.
Well, felt short; I found Woodruff, and he wanted athletics out of the college.
So they took athletics out of the college, and told me to go ahead and develop a graduate
program which I did. Then it got kind of involved, and Stanley had to go find another
J: How did you and Woodruff get along?
S: We got along fine. Bob was a man, who I did not know he was going to do what he did.
J: What was the purpose of this taking the athletics out?
S: Taking it out. This was just Bob's idea, Bob's individual idea. He did not tell me what he was
going to do. I wa sup in Tallahassee waiting for ten hours while the Board discussed the
situation. They came out and told me what they had done, but he did not want it. That
was his privilege, and I developed the college, but that was lost
started a graduate program, which is O.K.
Then after Woodruff got in hot water, the Board said, "Well, Stanley, go look for
somebody else, would you?" I was on the Board, so I did. I had Dave Nelson, who had
been very successful at Delaware, and Ara Parsegian, who was then of Northwestern,
here -- visited my home, went back to New York. Ara Parsegian wanted the job; he
accepted the job if I could deliver it.
I had to wait on Dr. Reitz, who was then in Detroit --this was the coaches meeting -- he
wanted Nelson, who wold have been a good one too. So I could not move. Ara came to
my room twice that night, Dr. Constans was also there. Ara said, "Now, I have got to
know something. I am at Northwestern and Stu Holcomb is my athletic director. I
cannot run out on him. I have got to tell him so that he can hire a coach."
And I just ... he said, "Well, I will wait a little longer." Came back late, said, "Dutch, I
have got to leave. I cannot . can you tell me?"
I said, "No." Five minutes later Reitz called me up and released me -- too late, so I did
not have a coach. And wanted the job.
Ray Graves was interested. I had known of Ray; he was head line coach of Tech, and he
was a good one. So I got Ray over, this was all, you know, at night, and twelve o'clock,
and pretty late, so I said, "Ray, you want this job?"
He said, "Oh, I sure do."
I said, "O.K. Get out of town and go on down to Gainesville." I called Jack Daniels,
who is still on the Board of Regents, I said, "Jack, I have got a good man, I think."
And he said, "You think he is a good one?"
I said, "I do."
He said, "O.K. Send him down." And that is how Ray Graves got the job, and he has
done a good job.
J: He was the Georgia Tech line coach ...
J: ... before he came?
S: Can you imagine having the opportunity to get people who have turned out so good -- both of
them? We had a chance for two great ones but actually people do not know that.
When I was looking for somebody for Bear Wolfs place, before I hired Bear, I wanted to
hire Jess Neely, who was coach at Vanderbilt, and then went down to Rice -- one of the
deans of coaches in America. I called Jess. He said, well he did not think he wanted to
leave; he had not been there too long, and it would not look good. And so I negotiated
and negotiated, could not get him. Neely wanted to come to Florida. So one Sunday we
had the Board and we met here and Ray ... they gave him the job. When we got home,
Neely had called, and he said, "I believe I will take your job."
I said, "I missed you."
One of the interesting things that Bear Wolf. Bear was a good friend. He did not have
the material, he did not have the staff. Anyhow, he was in a long meeting, he was tired,
and he did not have the job. They were asking a lot of questions. They said, "Well, what
is your religion?"
He said, "I am a Catholic, but my wife is a Christian!" Well, that broke the meeting up.
These are things that really happened.
Another anecdote in my career ... Things were going pretty bad the last year, and so
there were rumblings. We were to play Auburn, and Auburn was great. The week
before, they were to play Georgia, and the winner was going to be the champ, ostensibly.
I went to Columbus, Georgia, to scout them. I said, "Well, I will give the team a week
off and I will let the assistant coaches work because I am going up and scout these guys."
So I went up and it was full -- jam packed. I talked to Herman Stegman, who was then
athletic director at Georgia. I said, "Herman, can I get a seat?"
"No, you cannot." He said, "No seats! But I will tell you what I will do. I will give you
a sideline pass. Just go on up and sit down someplace, and maybe somebody will let you
sit with them, or scrunch over or something."
So I went up and sat on the fifty-yard line on top of the field till the place filled up. And
here came two girls and two young men. I had been going with a girl in Eufala, Alabama
several years before, and whose seat do you think I had?"
J: Do not tell me.
S: Yes, I had she and her husband's seats!
I scouted Auburn, and they beat Georgia. The next week we played them here, and beat
them 14-6. That is when I put on the first passer rush I ever knew about, they call now
the blitz, the monster men. We beat them 14-7.
Jimmy Hughes was the star of the team. Jimmy Hughes was one of the best athletes there
ever was. He owns a sporting goods store here now. He made all-southern -- nobody
knows it -- he made all-southern basketball. He was a great basketball player and a great
Then I got a letter from the governor of the state: "All Florida is proud today." I still
have it. I found out that the week before there had been a committee formed, of which he
was conscious, to get rid of Dutch. Is it not ironic the way things happen?
J: Yes, one game makes a difference. What about Coach Graves? Now you came here, when
was it? How was the department set up then? Was it still separate?
S: When Ray came, yes, we had separated when Woodruff wanted us to. But I still had the
infirmary -- I never intended to keep the infirmary. When they got a College of
Medicine, I kept trying to get them to take it, and they did not want to take it. Finally I
wrote President Reitz a long letter and told him, "Let us have a meeting with Dr. Sam
Martin." So we got Sam over; he agreed to take it on. So then we concentrated on
Physical Education, and Health and Recreation.
But we had a good concept. We did the things that needed to be done to bridge the gap
as so many do. We laid lots of foundations around here.
J: Sounds like it. I notice that you were on a lot of university committees. Any particular one
that comes to mind that you are particularly proud of?
S: Of course, I am proud of my twenty-three years on the Athletic Committee.
J: Let us talk about that a little bit, this athletic committee.
S: The athletic committee, really the Athletic Association Inc. -- the regular name the Division of
Intercollegiate Athletics -- was governed by the Board of Directors. They are appointed
by the president and are a separate corporation chartered under the law of the state of
Florida; they handle the financing. The committee on intercollegiate athletics is
composed of the faculty. But there are enough faculty on the total Board so that the
entire Board wears two hats. The Board of Directors and the faculty athletics committee
settles academic matters, eligibility, and so on. And they convene and reconvene the
meeting, Board of Directors that handle the personal matters and so on of the
athletic association. And so, I am proud of that.
We wrote them a statement, and we talked about a course, and they asked me if I would
manage it; I said I would, and I ramrodded the purchase of it, together with Jim
Richardson and several others. I took over the managership of it eleven years ago last
week Saturday. I was not even paid for it, but that was not the idea. I was still teaching
and "deaning" and so I just had so much to do. I just said, "Well, why do not
you get it over and get Burfer Bishop," which they did, "and then put some money into it
now, and you have got it." They did some extensive improvements and Graves has been
doing a great job of it. And so I am very proud of that accomplishment.
I created the college, and we got the golf course. Over ten years we made enough profit,
something like $17,000 per year -- we paid all the bills and salaries. That is when we
was strapped for money. That is when, in order to buy a typewriter, you had to go over
to the business office and get permission.
J: I have heard Kline Graham was quite a wheeler-dealer type. Did you ...
S: Well, he was not a wheeler-dealer. George Baughman was a wheeler-dealer. Kline Graham
was a pioneer who would get lots of .. Most of us had to watch our dollars and we had
to fight for whatever we got and what we would get, we would have to use it properly.
And then George Baughman came along. George was pretty good.
J: Well, that is quite a record you have had -- one to be proud of. What do you think of college
football today. Is it really getting out of hand, you think?
S: Yes, I think it is getting extremely out of hand. I do not think it is satisfying the objectives as
an integral part of education at all. As a matter of fact, I just got through writing an
article which I have called "Student Athlete or Athlete Student." In other words, the
NCAA [National Collegiate Athletic Association] and the Conference were running
around talking about student athletes, and saying that when they go recruiting we want
his education first and his athletics second. That is not true. I investigated. The boys do
not believe it, the parents do not believe it, the coaches who say it do not believe it. Now
what is wrong with saying "athlete student?"
I have written this piece, but I have not published it yet, but I have finished this last
paragraph and I just want you to hear it. Because I think it is controversial. I may make
somebody mad, but I do not believe so. I think I would say this to a boy's parents. "You
are invited to our institution mainly because you are an outstanding athletic prospect, and
you will remain as long as you maintain the confidence and status required of a normal
student in higher education. You will be known as an athlete-student, a designation of
which to be proud, because it indicates that you carry a double load." To one who has
been coach and athlete and who has a great love and affection for many boys, the above
statement would place the athlete at these times in a proper, respected, and admired
position where he belongs.
And that is what I think of our athletics. I think they are some great people in athletics.
If it had not been for athletics I would not be here. And they are part of the backbone of
the country. Anyone who has been through a good athletic program has found out that
sometime, someway, in tough situations, some of it rubs off. Not to say others do not,
either. There is as much courage off the football field as there is on. Believe me, I have
seen it. But certainly you get it of a kind. You get it on the field.
I has been my life, if it had not been when I could talk about it, and what I say I think is
right. Be proud. Honor your profession. Honor what you do. If you do not just do not
That is a piece, I am going to send that somewhere and I do not know when. the reason I
am hesitating about sending it is I do not know whether everyone knows what I am
saying. I do not know whether it would do any good, whether it would just make folks
mad. It is a philosophical piece.
J: Yes. So what about university athletics, particularly football, or course, nowadays? I guess
you could even include pro football.
S: Well, our problem is this: I think football is still great. We associate with a lot of football
playing, athletes at this college. I think they are great kids; I think they are under a great
deal of pressure. I think that the game of football is grown to be a monster.
We have at this present time about six colleges and universities in this state, with three or
four pro football teams. We have but a matter of maybe 350 high school teams. We have
one dollar, one entertainment dollar that has to be split. And all the budgets are going up,
I think. I can say unreservably that our athletic budget will be double that which it was
last year. The boys are spending money like it is going out of style. The high schools
have been suffering. You take the Jacksonville high schools; there are fourteen high
schools. And pro football [played] all summer and college football in the winter. The
high school athletic associations, who do not get money from the state, are going to have
a hard time. And so I say that something has got to give.
I am pretty sure that the college coaches would like to stop this mad race. But they do
not want to be the first one off the bus. So it has to be that everybody stop at once, thus
forcing people into reexamining things. Of course, there is the financial part. Now the
girls' program, demanding more money, is going to force things. It should have come
about philosophically, than be forced by economics, because the girls are going to get
their money. And each procedure is going up past the point where folks want to go.
And the lure of pro football, high school football, any other entertainment -- I think is
going to bring about a recession. I think the girls' program is good. I think the main
problem is too many of them, they want a complete turnabout, and they want it now, and
that is ridiculous. That just does not make sense. They are entitled to some money to
develop. As it goes they get their fair share of... What their fair share is, is not going to
be determined before that time.
J: Philosophically speaking, what do you think is needed here at Florida as far as athletics go?
Anything that strikes you as missing?
S: Well, it is difficult to be philosophical about... I think athletics here and athletics in other
places is sort of like the expression, "You mount up and ride off in all directions." I think
the emphasis now in American life, even in society, is how many, not how much --
quantity, not quality.
And I think, you would think of a sport and let us have it. You know, that sort of thing. I
think that is over-exploration, which is turning into over-exploitation. I think we need to
recap and go back and talk about the values and say, "What are we here for anyhow?"
Certainly our objectives have changed through the years, but it is our point now to look
Will Durant said, "A person who will not observe history has a good chance of repeating
it." It is true. So to go back and gather and gain from history ... You know the greatest
book in the world in history, and that is the Bible, and that is pure history. So we ought
to read our own history and gain from it. I think it will come. I think we are going to
have greatness thrust upon us by economics That is not philosophy. It is an
idea, but it does not give any answers. But if we get the idea, we can find answers.
Sort of a closing statement: I want to say that this has been my life, I guess, more than
anything. President O'Connell said that I had contributed to more fields and areas than
any other man that he knows of. There is an old saying, "I would rather by lucky than
smart." You know, you are at the right place at the right time -- and I was here. I was a
person who just seemed to be the one that they kept referring to; "Old Dutch did this" and
"Old Dutch did that", "Old Dutch though it wa great." And I could have stayed at Duke
and gone to another career, but I thought that I wanted to come home, and I did. I lost
my mother when I was a youngster, had no family, and I lived with the YMCA in Tampa
by myself. This was home to me. It gave me a chance to be somebody, and I have tried
to do everything I could. The emphasis in my life has been on -- and this sounds corny,
but it is not -- being a member of the team.
I am breaking loose a little now, a little too late, I think. I think I probably should have
made some contributions a little louder; at the time it might have been helpful. I might
not have been here by saying it. I think sometimes people do not go about doing things
in the way best calculated to make things happen. But if I can leave something here, I
think I have in this conference. And I developed the golf course. I am proud.
J: Yes. This is really to Florida's benefit in 1946 when you came back. That, it itself, was a
great accomplishment. College of Physical Education, Health and Recreation.
S: I should have said I am proud as hell. Proud and grateful.
J: Yes. Well, I think you could consider yourself a prime mover by all means.
S: And I did mention the Gator Bowl, and I am very proud of that. I was appointed twenty-three
years ago on the Gator Bowl, as a member of the Special Events Committee of the
NCAA. I have seen it grow and grow from little or nothing. And these great men in
Jacksonville, and the way they really put it on. It has been a great, great thing.
The sad part about it is here, you know, my dear friends drop off, they die. I tried to quit
a couple of years ago, but they would not let me. They said, stay on.
J: Who does Florida play this year at the Gator Bowl?
J: Any predictions on Florida football this year?
S: I feel that Doug Dickey is a very methodical person when he sets out with his ideas and that is
the way it is going to be. Doug is one of our graduates of this college; I have known him
a long time. He is a man who gets an idea, and a strong-willed man of strong
convictions. And in that respect he was similar to Coach Wallace Wade And
this is the way it is going to be, and he is going to play the percentages the way he sees it.
He is going to get results one way with several kinds of coaches. In other words, he is
going to go with what he has got, in himself. And I feel that he is going to get results if
he stays here long enough.
Wallace Wade once made the remark: "You know, Dutch, I am not very diplomatic. I
do not get along very good with the newspaper people because I do not try to talk long
enough. If I started losing they are going to get me." But he says, "I am not going to lose
much." But he did. I think Dickey's going to do his thing the way he has, if he has to
lose because of the particular type of renown he has, he is in trouble I think
he is eventually going to make it.
J: I have talked to a lot of students and others about Florida football, and they wonder, with all
these high schools around the state that are really Class AA that really have some
outstanding athletes, why Florida does not recruit more name players?
S: They recruited ninety-some percent of the players, this year, from Florida. It used to be we
could not get our own boys. They went off to other places; much more attractive to go to
other places. You know, which came first, the chicken or the egg. You have to be good
to get boys, and you have to get boys to be good, so you can get boys.
One more thing, I see my comment on Florida here. I think there is too much
competition among coaches, individual coaches. I really do. I do not know what to do
about it. But I think there are several coaches here who are exploiting their particular
sports to the hilt. And I do not know what you can do about it except what is being done
-- they are simply having to cut budgets. We are always going to have this.
The reason you have it is: one of the unfortunate things is that football has always
carried the sports; it still does. Basketball is now making some money, but my God, they
are spending a lot of money. Buster Bishop operates so that you can have a good team
and a good reputation without spending a tremendous amount of money. You have got
as many people as those.
J: Yes. The NCAA champs, what was it last year? Golf?
S: Well, last year. They missed it this year. The year before that, and last year, and were second
this year. They will be up again because Buster is a good manager, a good handler of
boys. He knows a good golfer when he sees one, and kids want to come to Florida. He
does not have to look for golfers, they come and then he decides if he wants to get them
started. He is a good recruiter. He talks a lot with parents that are very impressed with
Buster. Buster was on my staff. As a matter of fact, I first hired Buster.
So it has been a great, a great development.