Title: Interview with Charles Arnold Matthews (March 26, 1993)
Full Citation
Permanent Link: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00005877/00001
 Material Information
Title: Interview with Charles Arnold Matthews (March 26, 1993)
Physical Description: Book
Language: English
Publication Date: March 26, 1993
Subject: Fisher School of Accounting
University of Florida
Spatial Coverage: 12001
Funding: This text has been transcribed from an audio or video oral history. Digitization was funded by a gift from Caleb J. and Michele B. Grimes.
 Record Information
Bibliographic ID: UF00005877
Volume ID: VID00001
Source Institution: Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, Department of History, University of Florida
Holding Location: This interview is part of the 'Fisher School of Accounting' collection of interviews held by the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program of the Department of History at the University of Florida
Rights Management: All rights reserved by the source institution and holding location.
Resource Identifier: FSA 2

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Interviewee: Charles Matthews

Interviewer: Samuel Proctor

March 26, 1993

C. Arnold Matthews was born in Brunswick County, Virginia and attended
public schools there. He received the B.S. degree from Washington and Lee
University and the M.A. and Ph.D. degrees in Economics from the University of

During World War II, he served in the Supply Corps, U.S. Navy. He was
recalled to active duty during the Korean conflict and taught at the Naval

He was a member of the faculty, West Virginia University, 1939-40. From
1945 to 1948 he was an economic analyst with the U.S. Treasury Department,
Washington, D. C. In 1948 he joined the faculty of the College of Business
Administration, University of Florida as assistant professor of finance. He
has served as associate professor, professor, and chairman of the Department
of Finance, Insurance and Real Estate. In 1976 he was appointed to the
position of associate dean, College of Business Administration and held that
post until he retired in March, 1982.

He has served on a number of college and university committees, as
faculty advisor to finance majors, to the student Finance Association, and to
Beta Gamma Sigma (Business Honorary). He has authored a number of
publications in the field of money and international finance. Florida Blue
Key presented him its Distinguished Faculty Award in 1981.

He is a member of the American Economic Association, the American
Finance Association, the Financial Management Association, the Jacksonville
Financial Analyst Society, the Southern Economic Association and the Southern
Finance Association, serving as president in 1965-66 and as a member of the
Executive Committee from 1964-1967.

In 1972 he was appointed to the Citizen's Advisory Commission on
Banking, State of Florida. With Professor W. A. McCollough he prepared a
report: "Florida Banking: A Review and Projection To 1980", which served as
the basis for the Commission's recommendation concerning branch banking. He
has also served as consultant to the Florida Bankers Association on the
establishment of the Florida School of Banking and was Educational Director
of the School from 1969-1979. The Florida Bankers Association presented him
with its Distinguished Service Award in 1977.

P: [This is Sam Proctor, and] I am with Professor Charles Arnold Matthews of the
College of Business. This will be part of the project that we are doing on the Fisher
School of Accounting here at the University [of Florida]. Today is Friday, March 26,
1993, and we are in my office in the Florida Museum of Natural History. Arnold,
when were you born?

M: May 6,1916.

P: Where?

M: In the little rural town of Charlie Hope, in Brunswick County, Virginia. Charlie Hope
consisted of four or five families.

P: Is there a story behind the name of that town?

M: Charlie hoped it would become a big city.

P: It hoped to become a big city. So that is what happened to it. Is there a real Charlie
there, or was it named for you, Charles Arnold?

M: No. I was not named for the town, either.

P: [laughter] I thought you were born in Lawrenceville.

M: That is the closest town of any size.

P: So that is where you went for mail and whatever.

M: No. Originally we got our mail from Charlie Hope on a rural route.

P: What part of Virginia is that in?

M: The section known as Southside.

P: What is it near?

M: It is on the southern border of Virginia between Richmond and Raleigh.

P: You are, of course, a native Virginian. What about the family, Arnold?

M: The furthest we can trace the Matthews family is three generations back of me, with
Charles Matthews, who was my great-grandfather.


P: He came from where?

M: We do not know.

P: Presumably from the British Isles?

M: Well, the family originated in the British Isles, but when and who the first was to
come to America we do not know.

P: Do you know about when the first [of the Matthews came to America]?

M: No.

P: So you do not know about any ancestors participating in the Civil War.

M: The Civil War, yes. The Revolutionary War, I do not think so.

P: Who in the Civil War? Your grandfather?

M: No, neither my grandfather nor my great-grandfather, but there were some cousins
on my mother's side of the family that participated in the Civil War. They went by
the names of Epperson and Peoples.

P: What was your father's name?

M: My father's name was James Edward Matthews, Sr.

P: And your mother's name?

M: Patty Sue Epperson.

P: Is that also an old Virginia family?

M: To the best of my knowledge.

P: So you grew up in Charlie Hope.

M: Yes.

P: What business was your father in?

M: Farming.


P: So you lived out in the rural areas?

M: Yes.

P: What did you all grow?

M: Tobacco, which was a major money crop, a few cattle, hay, corn. [My father was]
just a general farmer.

P: Where did you go to school before you went to college?

M: I went to grammar school in Charlie Hope, first through seventh grade, and then [I
went to] high school in Lawrenceville for four grades.

P: How did you get to Lawrenceville?

M: School bus.

P: Was this a one-room elementary schoolhouse in Charlie Hope?

M: No. We had seven grades, as I recall. The first year I went there, there was a high
school section, also. In the first grade we were picked up by a horse-drawn wagon
that took us to school. [When I was] in second grade, my older brother was
responsible for driving the one-horse wagon with a canvas top like the schooners
that went to the West Coast, except it was only one horse instead of two or four.
Then I think around the third or fourth grade we began to ride a motorized school
bus to school.

P: Arnold, as you remember back on your childhood and growing-up years, was that a
happy time for you?

M: Yes.

P: You worked on the farm.

M: I did.

P: Doing everything that a farmboy is supposed to do?

M: From milking the cows before breakfast to again after I got home from school.

P: Was this a large family? You mentioned a brother.


M: I have two brothers and a sister.

P: Were you the youngest?

M: No, I was the second oldest.

P: So you had some responsibility, then, for the kids younger than you.

M: Yes, I guess you could say that.

P: You went to Washington and Lee for your undergraduate work?

M: Yes.

P: Why Washington and Lee?

M: Sam, the only thing I can tell you is that is where I wanted to go. Why I wanted to
do that I am not sure.

P: Now, you get there about when? In the 1930s?

M: In 1933.

P: You get your B.S. degree in 1937. What were your major areas there?

P: I am not sure we really had majors. If I had one, it would have been finance.

P: That has been, of course, your major of study ever since.

M: Yes.

P: Were you [a] fraternity [man]?

M: No.

P: Did you work on campus?

M: Yes.

P: Would you be considered a poor boy?

M: I think at Washington and Lee I would have been considered a poor boy. In
Lawrenceville I was not considered a poor boy.


P: Now, this period we are talking about is the Depression era. How did it impact your

M: I am not sure, Sam, that it had a great deal of effect on my family. We always had
plenty to eat, clothing to wear, [and] adequate housing.

P: When you got to the carrpus, of course, the NYA was already in operation as a
national program. Did you work for the NYA, or did you work while you were a

M: Yes, I worked for the NYA. I am not sure it was already in effect when I went to
school, but it was in effect shortly after that, and I, of course, looking for every little
penny I could find, made application to participate in the program.

P: What did you do as a student?

M: I ran messages and errands for the dean's office.

P: How good a student were you, Arnold?

M: I was a B student.

P: What made you decide to go to graduate school?

M: It seemed at the time to offer the best prospects for the kinds of things I was
interested in.

P: And they were what?

M: I do not know that I ever sat down to analyze them very carefully. [I was looking for]
opportunities for teaching, for government work, for business.

P: You were able to get that M.A. in one year, in 1938. That is pretty quick.

M: Well, I was a full-time student, and I guess I just put most of my efforts into my

P: Why the University of Virginia?

M: I did not make a decision to go on to graduate school until well into the summer
after I graduated from college, and it was one of the few places that had
scholarships available. I was offered one of these and accepted.


P: Were you getting encouragement from your family to go on to study, or did your dad
want you to come back home and go to work?

M: He left it entirely up to me. He put no pressure on me to come home and go to
work. The only "go to work" he could offer would be farming, and obviously that
was not what I had prepared myself for.

P: Were you the only member of the family to go to college?

M: No, [although] I was the first of my immediate family. My younger brother went to
college. He followed me to Washington and Lee and went through law school at
Washington and Lee.

P: But your older brother did not elect to go to college.

M: No, he did not. But my sister, who was the youngest in the family, also went to

P: Were your parents college graduates?

M: No.

P: Were you, then, the first of your [immediate] family to matriculate?

M: Yes.

P: That was a big undertaking in the 1930s for most American families.

M: It was. I had a first cousin or two who had gone to college, but not in my immediate

P: What was your program of study at Virginia when you were working on the M.A.?
Once again, was this in finance?

M: No, this was mostly in general economics.

P: Did you have to write a master's thesis?

M: Yes.

P: What was it?


M: An analysis of the "fee" system as a source of revenue for Virginia counties.

P: All right. I was going to ask you whether that was later published. Did that become
the basis for a book?

M: No. It had to do with governmental finance at the local level in Virginia.

P: After you received the M.A. in 1938, you went immediately into the Ph.D. program
at Virginia?

M: Yes.

P: Are there any factors that motivated that?

M: It seemed to be the desirable thing to do if I was going to take advantage of the
opportunities that advanced study offered.

P: Were you already beginning to think in your own mind that you wanted to end up as
a professor, a teacher?

M: I think so. This is pretty much what I had decided.

P: How gregarious a guy were you in those early years? Were you a social animal?
Were you involved in athletics?

M: I went out for football the first year I was at Washington and Lee, but I did not really
participate in a lot of athletics. I would say I was a fairly social person, but this was
not the objective.

P: But you did not lead a monastic life.

M: No. I went to the dances.

P: And participated in the social activities on the campus?

M: Yes.

P: How far was the University of Virginia from home?

M: About 100 or 125 miles.

P: So I guess in those days you were not able to commute back and forth easily.


M: [I went home for the] Christmas holidays, spring holidays, [and] summer.

P: Did you have a car?

M: No.

P: Most college students did not have cars in those years.

M: That is right.

P: And you had to either thumb your way or go by bus.

M: That is right. I did both.

P: So did I. [laughter] When you got out of college in 1941, Arnold, the war has
started, has it not?

M: Yes.

P: You got out in June, and Pearl Harbor is in December.

M: Right.

P: But the war had been on in Europe for a couple of years. Did that seem an
imminent threat to you?

M: Frankly, it was a threat before I got out of college. The first draft act was passed, if I
remember correctly, in 1939.

P: 1940.

M: OK. I was in school at the University of Virginia on a leave of absence from West
Virginia University, where I had taught one year. When the draft numbers were
assigned I was seventeen, eighteen, nineteen--a relatively low draft number. [That
factor,] plus the fact [that] I was from a rural county and unmarried, meant that I had
a high vulnerability for being drafted into the army. After considerable--or maybe
not so considerable--thought, I decided that being drafted would not fit into my plans
for myself.

Being in school, I was deferred until the end of the school year, so this gave me an
opportunity to look around for other openings rather than being drafted. I recall
interviewing with all of the branches of the service that came to campus recruiting
for officer material, and particularly with the marine corps for what they called


"squadron leaders." The recruiter with whom I was talking asked, "How old are
you?" and as I recall, I would have been twenty-four my next birthday. He said to
me, "The cutoff age for this program is twenty-four, and since you will be twenty-
four before you would begin your training, you will be too old to be eligible." This
was quite a blow, of course, to my ego, but I continued my search.

The navy opened up a supply corps program to college students, and I made
application. I had not received any action on my application when I received my
doctor's degree in June of 1941. The draft board sent notice for me to report for my
physical examination upon completion of the school year. I contacted the Norfolk
navy base, the admiral in charge of the supply corps recruiting program, and they
requested deferment for induction of my draft board. In June I received my
commission in the supply corps in the navy as an ensign.

P: This is June of 1941.

M: Yes. Later that summer I was ordered to report for active duty for training for. I
forget whether it was sixty or ninety days. But to make a long story short, before the
active duty for training was completed, I had orders to report to the navy supply
corps school at Harvard for further training. Eventually, in October of 1945, I was
discharged from the navy.

P: Arnold, I want to go back for just a moment, even before your military career begins,
and ask you about this stint when you were teaching at West Virginia University.
Obviously you had that job before you received your Ph.D.

M: Yes.

P: How did that happen?

M: Well, they needed someone, and this looked like an opportunity to get a little
experience [and] to earn a magnificent salary of, as I recall, $2,100 for nine months.
It turned out that it was, and at the end of a year, they encouraged me to go back
and finish my degree. [They] were willing to place me on a leave of absence after
one year of service. So all the time I was in the navy I was on leave of absence
from West Virginia University.

P: Where is it located?

M: Morgantown.

P: And it is still in operation today?


M: Yes.

P: Is it still a big operation?

M: Well, I am not sure how big an operation it is.

P: But I mean it is a thriving school.

M: Oh, yes.

P: Football?

M: Yes.

P: And it had a strong program in what you were interested in teaching? What did you
teach? Let me ask it that way.

M: I taught general economics, and I actually taught a course in statistics.

P: How far away were you from Charlottesville? I was wondering to what degree you
were able to continue your Ph.D. program there.

M: The Ph.D. program in Charlottesville made very little progress during the year I was
teaching at West Virginia.

P: I see. So what you did, in fact, was almost like taking a year of leave of absence
from the Ph.D. program.

M: That is right.

P: And then at the end of that year of teaching you went back to Charlottesville and
completed the program.

M: Yes.

P: But you still were able to hold onto that leave of absence, as you say, throughout
the war.

M: Yes. I think that was a provision of the law that most positions had to be held while
you were on active service.

P: So you could have come back, had you so desired, to that teaching position in


M: Yes. I never resigned that position until September or October of 1945, when I had
to make a decision whether to go back to West Virginia or accept some other type
of employment.

P: How long were you at Harvard in the training program?

M: I forget whether that was for four, five, or six months--something of that sort.

P: And then you went where?

M: I was assigned to active duty as the dispersing officer to a heavy cruiser, the USS

P: In the Pacific or the Atlantic?

M: In the Atlantic. We were patrolling the North Atlantic--the area around Iceland and
Nova Scotia--against German U-boats and aircraft.

P: As a dispersing officer, what were your responsibilities?

M: Basically to maintain the payrolls and pay the bills of the ship, and other such duties
as might be assigned.

P: Did you continue throughout the war [as] dispersing officer on this ship?

M: No. This was a tour of duty for about a year. Then I was detached and sent back
to the States and assigned to a ship being built and later to be commissioned in
New York. They changed program emphasis, and that type of ship was put on low
priority, so I was reassigned to an ACORN which was assembling in Port Hueneme,

P: Where is that near?

M: It is north of L.A. and San Diego and south of San Francisco.

P: Someplace in that area. What did you do there?

M: I was supply officer of an ACORN. The ACORNs were units designed to manage
airstrips in the Pacific.

P: How long were you at Port Hueneme?


M: Only a couple of months.

P: And then?

M: We were put aboard a cargo ship and sent off down to the South Pacific, ending up
at the Russell Islands.

P: You obviously did a lot of leisure traveling during the war, first in the Atlantic and
now in the Pacific.

M: If you call it leisurely, Sam. We made one trip into Murmansk. [Ours was] one of
the few U.S. capital ships, I think, to go in at all, and certainly one of the few to go in
and come out.

P: Were you involved in any military action?

M: Well, yes, in a sense. Going into Murmansk and out was military action, although
there was no firing of guns. Later on we were involved in the landings in North

P: Were you still a single man at that time?

M: Oh, yes.

P: So what was your next military episode?

M: We were under orders to be transferred from the Russell Islands, where we were
"staging," to Biak, which is just off of New Guinea, where we would operate an air
strip. But in the process of moving from Russell to Biak I fell aboard ship one day
and fractured the pelvis bone in my hip. I ended up in the hospital and was sent
back to the States, so I saw very little action directly connected to the war in the

P: Did the war end when you were still in the States?

M: Yes, but I went from one assignment to another in the States.

P: You were discharged from the service in 1945. Is that right?

M: Yes.

P: And then from 1945 to 1948 you worked, as I have it here, as an economic analyst
in the U.S. Treasury Department?


M: Yes.

P: You were in the office of the technical staff.

M: Right.

P: What was all of that about?

M: All of that was about analyzing economic conditions that existed [and] the probable
impact of various decisions, government policies, and so forth on those economic

P: What rank were you when you were discharged from the military?

M: I was lieutenant commander.

P: Did this civilian job that you took entail a cut in pay?

M: No.

P: Good money?

M: Well, at the time it was not bad. Compared to the present, it was very poor.

P: Was this a Washington, DC, assignment?

M: Yes.

P: Once again, you are still a bachelor?

M: Yes.

P: So you had to find a place for a bachelor to live.

M: Yes.

P: What was life like in Washington immediately after the war?

M: I would say it was very good.

P: Where were you living, and where were you working?


M: I was living in DC. I had rooms in a private home, and I was working at the
Treasury Department building, adjacent to the White House.

P: So you were right kind of in the heart of all of the things that were going on.

M: Physically, yes.

P: Mr. Truman was the new president.

M: Right.

P: And, of course, all was right with the world. We had just won the war.

M: Yes, I think we could say that.

P: And I guess there was a great deal of enthusiasm everywhere in the United States,
and maybe a lot of it in Washington, DC. So you are there for almost three years,
from 1945 to 1948.

M: Yes.

P: Then comes the decision to come to the University of Florida. How did all of that

M: I guess there were several major factors. One was [that] I enjoyed my year of
teaching at West Virginia, and this was something I eventually wanted to go back to.
The second was that while I had a group of very good close friends in DC, the traffic
conditions were becoming at that time, to me, almost unbearable. I guess the
deciding factor was going back to Washington from the beach, whether we went to
the beach at Norfolk or the beaches in Delaware or Maryland. Traveling to and
from the beaches took as much time--if not more time--than we spent on the beach
on a weekend. This was not the quality of life that I envisioned for myself.

P: Were you a beach person so that that was a big factor?

M: Well, I use "beach" to indicate the relative time for whatever. If I was going to the
mountains and not to the beach, it was the same problem.

P: So you were not dissatisfied with your work, but rather with the living conditions in
Washington at the time.

M: I think that was the major factor, although I would say that I wondered at times
whether my work was really significant or not.


P: Could you have stayed on at the Treasury Department?

M: Yes.

P: Tell me about the coming to the University of Florida. How did all of that [happen]?
You make up your mind that you want to lead an academic life.

M: I talked to my major professor at Virginia, and he was constantly getting requests for
names of people who were available for teaching positions. He wanted to help me
in any way he could to return to this type of position. I think I told him that if he had
some notices of vacancies east of the Mississippi and south of the Potomac that I
would be glad to consider them. One that turned up was at the University of

I submitted my application and received a reply from Dean [Walter] Matherly
[College of Business], who had family ties in Kentucky and who was going to be on
a trip to Kentucky visiting relatives. He wanted me to meet him while he was on that
trip. We met, and the position he had originally wanted to consider me for he had
filled. (It was director of the Bureau of Economic and Business Research, and he
had made an offer to George Hurff to fill that position.) He said when we parted in
Kentucky that he would like to have me on his faculty, but at the moment he did not
have an opening. But if he had an opening he would contact me. I thought that
was the nicest let-down I had ever had as a job refusal.

P: Was anybody else looking for you at the moment?

M: No, I did not have any other applications out at the moment.

P: The college enrollments were exploding then with the GI Bill of Rights.

M: That is right, and it was only a matter of weeks, I think, before he made contact with
me again and had a position that he wanted to offer me. Whereas our earlier
contact was in the summer--I forget whether it was July or August--this was now

P: September 1948.

M: Yes, and I was actually doing two weeks of training in the navy's supply system,
and I had my Treasury Department job to which I had to give some notice before
quitting. The University of Florida was already in session.

P: In those years we started in September.


M: Right. All of these things had to be put into a tight time schedule if I was going to
resign from the Treasury, get finished with this two weeks of training in the navy,
and report to the University of Florida. We attempted it and did it. So I ended up
two weeks late for class. I think I had a rather successful first year of teaching at

P: What did Matherly offer you in the way of salary and rank?

M: He offered me assistant professor, and I forget exactly what salary he offered me,
but it seems to me it was like around $6,000 or so a year.

P: What were your responsibilities to be? What were you going to teach?

M: I was going to teach money and banking [and] corporate finance.

P: Were all these new programs at the University of Florida? Were you getting
involved in the planning for new things?

M: Not immediately at that time. I think the emphasis then was recruiting people to
cover existing courses and expanding the existing program, not necessarily
developing new programs.

P: Arnold, did you ever teach in the University College?

M: No.

P: You did not ever teach the basic American Institutions course?

M: No.

P: There were people from various colleges on campus [who did].

M: That is right, and several of my colleagues in the College of Business did teach
those American Institutions courses.

P: [Rollin S.] Atwood, I think, was one. No, Atwood was in geography. But there were

M: I think Clem Donovan taught, and I am not sure but that John McFerrin taught some
of those courses.

P: I do not know whether he did or not. How did you get to Gainesville?


M: I drove a car.

P: Is there a change in your status by 1948, when you come to Gainesville?

M: No.

P: So you are still coming as a single person.

M: I am still coming as a single person.

P: So it is not a we; it is an yet.

M: It is an I, so far as that is concerned.

P: All right. You come to Gainesville. Where did you live?

M: Initially I checked into the Whitehouse Hotel, but I found a room and bath in a
private home that belonged to Gerald and Lydia Stout, and I lived there for several
weeks. Then I found an apartment in the Garden Apartments on NE 9th Street, I
believe, and I lived there for the school year. Another faculty member and I located
a house nearer to the campus on SW 5th Avenue, and we lived there a year. At the
end of that time, I was being married in September, and we bought a home that had
been built by a forestry professor.

P: [Charles G.] Geltz.

M: No. A bigger one: H. S. Newins.

P: I do not remember. Where was it located?

M: On what was Columbia Street at the time. It later became NW 7th Avenue.

P: Near 17th.

M: Near 17th Street. Right.

P: Who did you share the house with the year that you had the rented house?

M: Part of the year with [Robert] Scott Hagerman [assistant research engineer,
Engineering and Industrial Experiment Station], and the other part of the year with
the history professor, Ashby Hammond.


P: Our mutual friend Ashby.

M: Right.

P: Where were your classes? Matherly Hall was not yet constructed, or was it?

M: No. My classes were in Building I, and later some were in Building G, and I think
some were in Peabody [Hall].

P: And Building I and Building G were among the temporary buildings that had been
brought in from military installations, and the campus was peppered with these
"temporaries," which lasted a long time.

M: Right. My office was in another temporary, which was Building D.

P: Is that the one that was adjacent to Anderson Hall?

M: No, this is the one that was where the School of Architecture partly is now and
where they had the cattle pens.

P: Was that Grove Hall?

M: Yes, I think that was Grove Hall.

P: I had an office there, too, for a short while, and I remember Ralph Turlington and
Jim Richardson shared an office in that building.

M: Yes.

P: And they turned it into or it had been a women's dormitory. I think it had been a
women's dormitory before they gave it to us.

M: I think that is probably right. I do not think they turned it back into a dormitory after.

P: The sinkhole was right out in front of it.

M: Right.

P: And the cattle barns were in the back.

M: Right.

P: The dairy barns, I think we called them at the time. [laughter]


M: They were really breeding barns, were they not?

P: That is right. They later turned those over to the Florida Players, and they
converted them into rehearsal halls for their dramatic productions on campus.

How many hours did you teach in those early pioneer days?

M: I think I taught as many as fifteen.

P: And I think there were classes on Saturday, if you will recall.

M: There were, at seven o'clock in the morning.

P: Right, and earlier than that, perhaps, in the summer. We all had nine-month

M: I do not think we really had firm departments in the college at that time, with the
exception of accounting and, I think, real estate.

P: Did you deal directly with Walter Matherly, the dean?

M: Yes, but it seems to me that to some extent he had delegated certain
responsibilities to others. John McFerrin was either my mentor or I tended to go
through him.

P: I was his student assistant.

M: You were?

P: I was the one who typed "Caldwell and Company" that went off to the publisher. He
had an office in what is now Flint Hall, down at the west end of it on the second

M: When I came he was in Peabody.

P: They moved him out of there the next year. No, because that was earlier than that;
I worked for him earlier than that. He was still in Flint Hall then. Now, tell me about
your getting married. Then I want to get back to your academic world.

M: What is it you would like to know?

P: I would like to know who you married and when.


M: I married Mary Lippitt, who was an instructor in physical education.

P: When did you marry?

M: In September of 1950.

P: And two children came from this marriage.

M: Right.

P: Their names?

M: Mary Katherine and Charles Arnold, Jr.

P: Tell me about Mary Katherine. Just give some bio information.

M: Her name is now Hoffmann, and she lives in Richmond and is a CPA. She has two
boys--Michael, seven, and Brian, four.

P: And Charles?

M: Charles is an aviator; he flies for the Thomas H. Lee Company out of Boston. He is
their chief pilot. They have seven or eight pilots and, I think, two airplanes.

P: And he is married?

M: He is married and has a stepdaughter and is expecting another addition to the
family. [A son, William Charles, was born June 3, 1993.]

P: All right. Let us go back to your academic career now. Kind of describe, as you
remember it, the status of the college and the faculty when you came. Large?

M: I guess the college, compared to the present and to the rest of the University, would
have been considered to have been small in relation to the total, but growing
rapidly. The faculty, we thought, was pretty good. The departmental structure was
rather loose. I am not sure what I could say about it.

P: Was this a college that already had a graduate program?

M: Yes.


P: Now, of course, many of the senior faculty dated back into the 1930s, did they not?

M: Right.

P: People like [Montgomery D.] "Moby Dick" Anderson. Truman [Bigham] taught

P: Economics?

M: John Eldridge. [David M.] Beights had just left in accounting, so the senior position
in accounting was open. A man by the name of [James E.] Chace was heading real
estate. John McFerrin was a relatively young senior member of the faculty. He had
been here before the war and had returned. I guess he was considered the senior
man in finance.

P: James Richardson was on the faculty. Of course, he was after the war.

M: He was after the war. I am not sure whether Jim's title was instructor or if he was
simply a graduate student when I first came here.

P: Now, tell me again what you taught when you first came.

M: I taught money and banking and corporate finance.

P: Now, you began to move up pretty quickly. You came here as an assistant
professor of finance in 1948, and you occupied that position for two years, and then
you became an associate professor in 1950.

M: Yes.

P: That was for three years, to 1953.

M: I guess that is right.

P: During that period there was an interval when they called you back into service.

M: Yes.

P: For the Korean conflict. Was that pretty traumatic?

M: Well, it was. For one thing, it was unexpected. For another thing, I was just
beginning to feel pretty well established in my profession. For another thing, we
were expecting Kathy to be born.


P: So this was a bolt out of the blue, then.

M: It was. I received a call from the personnel office of the navy indicating that I was
being recalled to active duty. They were not able to give me the required length of
notice by routine correspondence as to the date when they expected me to report,
so they were making the notice by telephone call. When I got the first call, there
was indication that I was going to be assigned to teach at the Naval Supply Corps
School at Bayonne, New Jersey. But the commanding officer of the Naval Supply
Corps School said that he only wanted instructors who were returning from sea duty
on his staff, and I was not acceptable, so I received a notice of change of duty. I
was to report to the commandant of the U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, to teach,
as opposed to the Supply Corps School in New Jersey. This was really a Godsend,
since the New Jersey location was one of the least preferred in the entire navy.

P: But the naval academy was a nice operation.

M: Oh, it was a plum.

P: Were you able to take the family?

M: Yes.

P: You must have stayed in the reserves, then, Arnold, when you were discharged,
and that is the reason they were calling you back in 1951.

M: Right. I did.

P: How long did that stint last?

M: Two years.

P: So you came back to the University of Florida in 1953, then.

M: Yes.

P: And you come back and almost immediately are promoted to professor of finance.

M: Yes.

P: So you move up pretty quickly, then; from 1948 to 1953 you go through all of the


M: Yes.

P: You must have been considered one of their stars.

M: I do not know.

P: Well, the record proves it. Now, the college is expanding?

M: Yes. It is becoming departmentalized. We have a Department of Economics, a
Department of Finance, a Department of Real Estate, and a Department of

P: And you become chairman of the Department of Finance and Insurance in 1958.
That is the information that I have here. You are a professor of finance through
1957. Is that correct?

M: Yes. So far as I know, those dates are accurate.

P: OK. They are from your vita.

M: We had grown considerably in faculty and students. Dean Matherly died, I think, in

P: And he was succeeded by whom?

M: Don Hart. Don started a review of faculty and organization in the college, and out of
that came a report recommending the creation of the Department of Marketing, the
Department of Management, and the Department of Finance and Insurance. I
guess John McFerrin was the first chairman of the Department of Finance and

P: And then you succeeded him?

M: No. Vic Sweeney succeeded him. John was appointed by Hart as director of
graduate studies, and a man by the name of Vic Sweeney, who taught insurance,
was made chairman of the department. Other faculty, of course, were assigned to
other departments, and they had their chairmen.

P: Is this when James Butterworth came aboard as chairman of marketing?

M: Yes.

P: Who was chairman of management [and business law]?


M: I am not sure I can tell you that.

P: Well, we can go back into the early catalogs. That is an easy one to get. So 1957-
1958 the college, under the leadership of Don Hart, goes through a major
reorganization and expansion?

M: Yes.

P: That has been the story of the College of Business since the end of World War II--
continuing expansion in terms of additional courses, new programs, and expanding
student enrollment.

M: Right.

P: Obviously you became pressed for space.

M: Right.

P: And a new building, then, was constructed?

M: Yes. The building was constructed while Matherly was still dean. I think it was
completed and he had actually moved into the dean's office, but he died not long
after the [official dedication].

P: And that is when the decision was made to name it for Walter Matherly.

M: Right.

P: And you then moved your offices into that building?

M: Yes.

P: Now, you taught, and you also now become the chairman of the department.

M: Well, not immediately.

P: In 1958 you become the chair.

M: Yes.

P: Did you welcome taking on the administrative responsibilities?


M: Well, I guess I was pleased to be offered the position. I am not sure that I made
any effort to obtain the position. As a matter of fact, I was not even in residence
when the decision was made to name me chairman of the department.

P: Who were the other members of the faculty of your department at the time?

M: The senior member of the department would have been John McFerrin.

P: Wasn't he moving off the scene about now?

M: He was still a very influential member of the faculty and also a member of the
department. There was John Dietz, [professor of finance] who was retired from the
investment banking business, and had joined the faculty several years before and
taught the advanced courses in investment.

P: John Eldridge, of course ..

M: He was [in] economics.

P: He was one of the really colorful people on the campus.

M: Yes.

P: [He was] a wonderful guy. He and I were good friends, and I remember he was
kind of the curmudgeon of the campus.

M: That is right.

P: [He was] writing letters to the Alligator and lambasting the construction of Tigert
Hall, which he called The Kremlin. [laughter]

M: We had Jim Richardson on the faculty.

P: [Ralph] Turlington did not teach in your department?

M: Turlington was gone.

P: He was already gone into the insurance business.

M: Right. I am not sure [if this was] at the time that Ralph taught and left, but the
finance insurance department had become well organized, [even though] it did not
exist in name. We had, prior to the break-up of the departments under Hart, an
organization that consisted of the Department of Economics, the Department of


Business Organization and Operations, the Department of Real Estate, and the
Department of Accounting. So this whole B.O. & 0. department, or the "BOO"
department, was spread into three individual departments. John McFerrin was the
chairman of the B.O. & O. department and then the finance department. He was
succeeded by Vic Sweeney, who was a professor of insurance, as chairman of the
finance and insurance department.

P: What about accounting, now? Who was chair of that?

M: Lanham was chairman of accounting.

P: Was his name James Lanham?

M: I think so.

P: I think it was. And then he was succeeded by Willard Stone?

M: Yes.

P: That obviously had to be an expanding department, with the growth of the state and
the pressures to graduate more people in accounting.

M: It was a growing department. I think the reason that Lanham left, or one of the
reasons, was that he was not designated as dean when Matherly died. There was
something of a struggle between [Roland B.] Eutsler, who had been Matherly's
associate dean, Lanham, and McFerrin for the deanship, for the dean's position.
Lanham and McFerrin sort of closed it off for each other, I guess.

P: So Hart was brought in as kind of a compromise, then?

M: Yes. As I understand the chain of events, he was brought in as sort of the last
viable alternative. Reitz was president, or had become president.

P: J. Hillis Miller died in November of 1953, and John Allen was the acting president
until Reitz came aboard in 1955.

M: Right. For a period of time there we had been operating with an acting president,
an acting dean, and I am not sure what other "acting" [personnel] in the hierarchy of

P: Did you say that McFerrin was the acting dean?

M: No. Eutsler was the acting dean.


P: Is Eutsler still living?

M: No.

P: So all three of these men are gone now. Is Lanham [still alive]?

M: I am not sure about Lanham.

P: I do not know where he went when he left here.

M: I am not sure that I could tell you where he went. But the story goes that Reitz
asked George Baughman (who was in the business office of the University at the
time and was going around visiting all the universities for the accrediting agencies) if
he had run across some young, aspiring, energetic deans that he could recommend
for the College of Business. George said he had just been to the University of

P: That is where Hart was?

M: Yes. George had said yes, that he had run across this young man that he thought
would be just the person that Reitz would like. So they brought him in for
interviews, and he was offered the job.

P: I wondered how Hart got here. You are telling me a story I had not heard before.

M: You had not heard that story?

P: I had not heard about George Baughman's involvement in Hart's becoming the
dean of the College of Business. I knew George Baughman was involved in lots of
things. [laughter]

M: I think if you want to verify that you can try Clem Donovan.

P: George Baughman is also available. He lives here in Gainesville now.

M: He may deny that he had anything to do with it.

P: I know. [laughter] Well, I am going to just go on the basis of what you are saying
and accept it as historical accuracy.

So the question I was raising was about growth and development. Particularly I
wanted to know about accounting, because we are going to start building up to the


school itself. To what degree did you relate in terms of your own finance and
insurance programs to that department?

M: We had, I would say, a very cordial relationship. I did not feel we had any problems
with respect to turf. Our areas were pretty well defined. There was some
overlapping between some accounting courses and some finance courses, but
[they were] not serious, not to the extent that we had battles in faculty meetings on
curriculum design and construction over them.

P: Now, when a student came here to study accounting, the student also had to take
courses in your department?

M: Oh, yes. All students receiving degrees from the college had to have, I think, at
least two finance courses. One would be what we called Money and Banking. That
was a subject of debate as to whether it was economics or finance. At one time we
cross-listed it as either, so that you could take the same course as finance and as
economics; it would be the same instructor and the same textbook, so you could fill
that requirement either through economics or finance.

P: I know the college had a graduate program. Did you have a graduate program in
finance and insurance?

M: Only as it was a part of the college graduate program.

P: One of the things I did not ask you earlier that I want to get on the record [is about
your dissertation]. This goes way back. Do you remember your dissertation title?
What did you do your dissertation on way back when?

M: I did it on state taxation of oleomargarine, an analysis of taxation for nonfiscal

P: That certainly does not sound like a very sexy title to me, [nor] an exciting project.

M: Well, at the time, Sam, oleomargarine was not very well accepted.

P: And now that they have figured out it helps your cholesterol, it is much more

M: Well, it became much more respectable when the laws prohibiting the addition of
color to oleo ..

P: Oh, I remember that white glob that used to sit on the plate.


M: .. were repealed, and the sales increased tremendously.

P: It began to look like butter.

M: Right.

P: You had that little powder you mixed in with it and colored it up.

M: That is right. I think the oleo lobby used my data that I compiled to get a lot of these
state laws repealed.

P: When you became part of the academic world here in Gainesville, at the University
of Florida in the 1950s and in your college, was there much push or much urgency
for faculty to do research?

M: Yes.

P: The publish and perish concept?

M: Yes, but I think it was not enforced like it has become in recent years.

P: Now, was this true of Matherly, or did that come in with Don Hart? Matherly was
not himself a great research scholar.

M: No, and I think under Matherly there was more lip service than actual fact insofar as
the type of research that was required. I am not sure how much output had to be
demonstrated in order for the requirement to be fulfilled.

P: What was your involvement as a research scholar?

M: I am afraid not as much as it should have been.

P: But you began writing and publishing in the 1950s?

M: Yes, although I am not sure that what I wrote and published would be considered
original research as much as reinterpretation.

P: But you were doing the requisite amount in terms of your colleagues at the time.

M: Yes.


P: And your programs, then, once again the departments, are all expanding in terms of
students. Where were the students coming from in the 1950s and 1960s here at
the University in the College of Business?

M: Of course, they were primarily from within the state, and within the state I would say
[they were from] the large, rapidly growing residential areas of the lower east coast.

P: The Miami area.

M: Yes, and Jacksonville and probably the Tampa-St. Petersburg area.

P: Were you already beginning to turn out some stars, people who were moving up the
corporate ranks or wherever?

M: I think a few.

P: Now, they become much more numerous later on.

M: Yes.

P: What was the reputation of the college and your particular departments back in
those earlier years?

M: Well, I think the college had a pretty good reputation around the state, but it was
due to a considerable extent to Dean Matherly's interest in promotion--I guess you
would say politics--and activity in such things as the state chamber of commerce. I
have often thought that Dean Matherly did an excellent job of selling himself and to
some extent having this apply to the college, but there was nothing lasting to keep
the college going when he was not out waving the flag.

P: He was always hoping to become a college president, too.

M: Yes. At one time, I understand, there was considerable discussion of him as a
viable candidate for governor.

P: There was. It never really got off base at all, but there was discussion of that, and
he did not discourage that at all.

M: I am sure that is true.

P: He would have liked that to have happened.

M: But he was probably seriously in the running for the presidency of FSU at one time.


P: Well, he had a charismatic personality, and he spoke well, and he certainly looked
the part of a college president, if there is such an image. But he did promote that, of
course, very well.

Now, when Hart comes in he is much more of an academic scholar, is he not?

M: Yes, but Hart never really published much in the way of original research. He did
write a textbook in basic management.

P: When did the College of Business begin to compare favorably with schools like
Chapel Hill and Duke and Virginia and so on?

M: I would say not until well into Lanzillotti's tenure as dean.

P: So this was still pretty much, to use a trite phrase, a provincial school--into the early
1970s, anyway.

M: Yes.

P: It ranked well within the state, but not very well comparatively speaking with other
major universities in the South and had little national status.

M: Well, if by "other major universities in the South" you mean Virginia, Chapel Hill,
Duke, [and] Vanderbilt, I think that is true.

P: But how about with the University of Alabama or the University of Georgia?

M: Well, I think Florida ranked well with Alabama and with Georgia, and certainly with
the Mississippi schools, the Louisiana schools, and the Kentucky schools.

P: Was your college and your department getting a pretty fair slice of the financial pie
that came to the University from the legislature?

M: I would say we did fairly well under Matherly. We did not fare so well under Hart.

P: Why not?

M: I do not think Don was a very aggressive promoter of the College of Business. I
think we did much better under Lanzillotti.

P: Now, Hart is succeeded by Lanzillotti?


M: Yes.

P: So what you had in the postwar period, then, was Matherly, Hart, Lanzillotti, Merten,
and now [John] Kraft.

M: Right.

P: So there have been five deans in that period, really, of almost fifty years.

M: Yes.

P: Actually longer than that, because Matherly was the first dean. So you have had
five deans over the period of the history of the college.

M: Yes. I guess the college was organized in the late 1920s.

P: Yes. I want to jump ahead here and ask you [something else]. I notice that there
has been, I guess, some sort of a reorganization, because in 1972 real estate has
been added to your department. What brought that about?

M: That was brought about by decree. [laughter]

P: I mean, was there any special reason? I thought that was a separate department
under Al Ring.

M: It was. Al Ring and Lanzillotti had some personality problems, I guess.

P: [They are] two volatile characters. [laughter]

M: That is a way to state it, Sam.

P: I know both of them. [laughter]

M: The dean let it be known to Al that the real estate department had too few faculty
and too few students to make it a viable, separate department and that he was
going to merge it into the Department of Finance and Insurance. I am not sure with
whom he conferred, but somewhere along the way, he mentioned it to John
McFerrin. John was then associate dean; well, whether he had that title or not, he
was serving as Lanzillotti's chief adviser. John wanted to know whether he had
checked it with the chairman of the Department of Finance and Insurance.

P: One Arnold Matthews.


M: Right. Lanzillotti said no. John said, "Well, don't you think we ought to let him in on
it before you [go ahead with this]?" But somewhere along the way he discussed it,
and I indicated that I was willing to add this to my other chores. In the process of
this merger taking place, Al retired. I think, if rumors are at all accurate, after
considerable effort to move the real estate program into the College of Agriculture
or even to a separate school..

P: Which he might endow. [laughter]

M: Well, he might. I am not sure whether he made any actual overtures to South
Florida or not--I do not know--but he retired before the merger took place. So he
was never really a member of the Department of Finance and Insurance.

P: Alfred Ring is another one of the colorful characters in the history of the University
of Florida.

M: He is.

P: He still plays tennis, you know, every single day.

M: Yes.

P: [He is] well up into his eighties, and I guess [he] enjoys life. [laughter]

M: I guess.

P: You got along well with Al?

M: With Al Ring? I thought I always got along well with Al. We have not seen each
other much since the merger took place.

P: Well, he is very visible. If you want to see him, he rides his bike over to the post
office every day. [laughter] I had never heard about this business of Ring wanting it
to become part of the College of Agriculture. I had always heard the longstanding
argument that regarding whether economics belongs in the College of Business, or
whether it should be shifted to the College of Arts and Sciences.

M: And on that basis, I guess there still are members of the Department of Economics
who are members of the faculty of the College of Arts and Sciences.

P: Woodruff.

M: Is he the only one now?


P: He is the only one I know of. William Woodruff [graduate research professor of
economic history], who shifted, you remember, back and forth.

M: Now, do they still give an economics major in arts and sciences?

P: I think so, yes. I believe that is true, but I do not really know.

M: I think that is true.

P: Now, you become a dean yourself in 1976. You make the first mistake by
becoming a chairman, and then you are seduced further to become an associate
dean in 1976. Who wooed you into that? McFerrin?

M: No. The dean appointed a faculty committee to make recommendations for an
associate dean. I forget who the members of the committee were except for Gene
Brigham [graduate research professor]. There were two others, but [I cannot
remember who they were].

P: Brigham was from here?

M: Yes. Brigham came here, I guess, in the early 1970s as a graduate research

P: Now, you earlier had a Bigham, but he is retired by now? Tom Bigham? He was
just a professor.

M: Truman Bigham. He died back in the 1950s or 1960s.

P: I remembered [they were two different people]. I was not getting them mixed up.

M: He was the one I was trying to think of as a senior professor when I first came here.

P: OK.

M: As a matter of fact, I think he directed the graduate program at the time that I first
came on the faculty.

P: Now, when you take over as associate dean in 1976, you also become the director
of graduate studies?

M: Yes.


P: So there is a joint responsibility.

M: Yes.

P: You give up the chairmanship of the department.

M: Yes.

P: Who succeeds you there?

M: Arnold Heggestad, I think.

P: What were your responsibilities as associate dean?

M: Doing whatever the dean told me to do.

P: Well, you were more than just a gofer.

M: Sometimes I wonder, Sam.

P: [laughter] Did you have any specific responsibilities?

M: I was responsible for the budget for the college, for seeing that the departments
followed the procedures, and general oversight of the graduate curriculum.

P: Was Lanzillotti the kind of person that delegated?

M: Yes, but he also closely supervised.

P: He wanted to know what was going on.

M: And he often determined what was going on.

P: How successful would you say you were as an administrator, Arnold?

M: I do not think I was very good.

P: You did not like it?

M: Not particularly.

P: But you got along well with people. You had the kind of personality that enabled
people to trust you and rely on you.


M: I think I got along because I was not too assertive. I tried to treat everyone equally
and tried to keep out of internal squabbles as much as possible.

P: Who were your closest colleagues, your real friends?

M: Well, I guess, Sam, that over the years the closest colleagues would have been the
people in the department, but in later years John McFerrin Well, John McFerrin
really from the time I first came here [was a close friend]. I think I have to give him
credit for a lot of the success that I had, if I have had success. I have always
considered Clem Donovan to be a friend and to some extent an ally.

P: You retired in 1982?

M: Yes.

P: Was it because of illness, or were you just tired and burned out?

M: It was not because of illness. When I became associate dean, the University had a
policy that administrators retired from administration at sixty-five. I think that is right.

P: That is right. And faculty at seventy.

M: In 1981 1 became sixty-five, so I tendered my resignation. As the date for retirement
approached, the dean's committee had not made its recommendation, and he was
worrying me one day as to when I quit who was going to take over my duties. I
said, "Bob, if you would like, I can serve for another year, provided the sixty-five age
limit is not going to be a factor." He said, "All right. I will see what I can work out
with Bob Bryan." The decision was made for me to carry on as associate dean.

P: For one more year.

M: For one more year. In the process the committee made a recommendation that
John Kraft be associate dean.

P: Was John Kraft already on the faculty?

M: Yes.

P: I asked you if John Kraft was already on the faculty because you said that the
faculty had voted to have him brought in as associate dean.

M: That was the recommendation of the search committee.


P: Did that interfere, then, with that one year that Lanzillotti was working with you?

M: In a sense. There were two major projects in process in the college. One was the
construction of the general business building, and the other was its evaluation by
the Southern Association of Colleges and Universities. I had been active in both of
these projects, so the decision was made that I would continue on for the evaluation
of the visiting committee and also for the move from other buildings into the new
building. Hence, when these projects were finished, I retired, I think in April of 1982,
instead of going on through until June.

P: Were you drawn into the increasing activity of fund-raising in the 1960s and 1970s?
Was that ever a role that you played in the college?

M: Not especially, no.

P: Lanzillotti really played the major role there, did he not?

M: Yes. About the only involvement I ever got into with that was setting up meetings
with some of the alumni around the state, helping to organize the meeting, and
getting invitations sent out and a list of people who might be potential donors.

P: One of the areas I wanted to ask you about had to do with this Florida School of
Banking. I guess that was under the auspices of the Florida Bankers Association?

M: Yes.

P: What was it, and what role did you play?

M: Well, a lot of the state banking associations had established a school of banking to
upgrade their employees with some basic economic and finance courses and also
in some of the major areas of occupation within the banking industry. A delegation
from the Florida Bankers Association came to me as chairman of the finance
department one year and wanted to know if we would be interested in helping the
association set up a state school like those in Tennessee, Georgia (it seems like
Georgia had one), and several of the other states. I told them we would be
interested in helping them do this. They let it be known that some members of our
faculty would not be acceptable for their purpose, but they indicated they would like
for me to do this, which the dean thought was very appropriate. I guess this was
Hart at the time. It might have been Lanzillotti. I think it was Hart who was here
when we set up the school.

P: I am curious as to why they felt that certain members were not qualified.


M: Did I say "qualified" or did I say "acceptable"?

P: "Acceptable" is what you said.

M: Well, I am not sure I can answer that question for you.

P: [laughter] All right. We will just drop that question, then.

M: I spent about a year working with the committee of bankers, the chairman of which
was Rod Porter, who at that time was with Atlantic Bank over in Jacksonville. We
came up with a curriculum--a course of study--extending over three summers, one
week each summer, with homework to be done between school sessions and
papers turned in on this homework. It became very popular with the banks at the
beginning; we started off with an enrollment limited to sixty each summer, but it was
soon clear we had to extend this. We went to 120, and I think eventually they got
as many as 200 to 250 enrolled. Since the interstate mergers and the large chain
systems, it has lost some of its popularity, but it is still running.

P: You were the director of it for ten years?

M: Educational director.

P: So you formulated the curriculum?

M: Right. The bankers themselves did the administrative work. They did all of the
typing and all of the printing.

P: Where were the faculty drawn from? This campus was one place.

M: This campus, some other academic programs--I think we have pretty much always
had one representative from the faculty of FSU--and from the banking industry itself,
where there are more technical banking subjects.

P: What did students get? A certificate?

M: Yes.

P: Was this applicable for college degrees?

M: No.


P: So these were people who were doing technical work [or] becoming what in the
bank? Tellers?

M: These were senior--I do not want to say clerical, but supervisory, I guess--personnel
and junior officers in the bank--loan officers, investment banking officers.

P: Second-level directors and managers?

M: Yes.

P: Arnold, I want to get into the area now of accounting, which I understand was not
yours immediately, but obviously you were involved in it, and particularly after you
became the associate dean. Why do you think that they moved in the direction of
setting up a separate school of accounting? They did not set up separate schools
for the other areas of activity in the college. I am asking about the thinking behind

M: Sam, I am not sure I can answer to your satisfaction. It would be mostly surmise, I
guess. But I think they had reached a point where there was demand by the
accounting firms for graduates who had a stronger base in accounting than the four-
year graduates they were getting. The movement towards the so-called
freestanding school for accounting and the expansion of the accounting education
program from four years to five years [as a] degree requirement sort of proceeded
hand in hand. This also would then tend to bring them into conflict with the
American Association of Collegiate Schools of Business in pressure for a broader
curriculum requirement as opposed to a more concentrated, accounting-oriented
curricular requirement, which the School of Accounting would seem to
accommodate. Do you follow?

P: I follow along. I was going to ask you, is one of the reasons for the pressure
brought by these firms because accounting now, by the 1960s, has become much
more technical, so that they felt that they could not get what they needed under the
more-traditional programs, that they needed more time or courses, more special

M: I am not sure, Sam, I would use the term technical.

P: Advanced?

M: Complicated. Technical sort of implies this is something you would process, and I
think it is a little more than that. The regulatory agencies had become such a factor
to be considered in accounting procedures that it had loaned itself to, I guess, more


studies, but whether it is deeper or broader I am not sure. Probably a little bit of

P: Did you discern hostility or opposition within the faculty for accounting to become a
freestanding operation?

M: I do not know if I discerned hostility. I think there was, at least at the beginning, a..

P: Jealousy?

M: No, not jealousy, but a concern that they were out to take more and more
accounting courses and less and less of economic and other discipline courses.

P: Now, as a freestanding school, the faculty in the School of Accounting would not be
accountable to the College of Business. Is that a fair statement?

M: I think that is a fair objective.

P: That they would have their own independent budget and could make their own
decisions over curriculum.

M: Yes. But I am not sure how the relationship between the School of Accounting and
the College of Business here was worked out to what extent they had complete
autonomy within their curriculum.

P: Well, when the School of Accounting becomes a fact, obviously a lot of
compromises must have been worked out, because the School of Accounting never
became a freestanding operation at the University of Florida.

M: Well, I think, if my memory is correct, that under the Constitution of the University of
Florida, the School of Accounting could not award degrees, could it?

P: No, it could not. I guess the Board of Regents could have changed that.

M: No one seems to have been willing to take it to the Board of Regents to have it
changed, and I think the reason for that was that there were other areas on campus
that were watching rather carefully or closely to see if accounting did achieve these
objectives, because they wanted to do the same.

P: So to curtail that kind of explosive action throughout the University they held
accounting to a situation within the college.


M: Yes. I think that was one of the major factors. At the same time they were trying to
accommodate the accounting profession within the University and the accounting
profession without the University to enable them to raise the funds they needed to
expand the program as they wanted to expand it.

P: Before you became associate dean, what role did you play, if any, in establishing
the School of Accounting?

M: None.

P: Was your advice sought?

M: Well, I remember talking to members of the faculty and to John Simmons and other
members of the accounting department, but I do not know that I would say they
were seeking my advice on how to proceed or whether to proceed.

P: Were you used by the college as a peacemaker?

M: I do not think so.

P: Was there a need for that kind of thing?

M: I was going to say I do not know as there was a need for a peacemaker. It
proceeded rather slowly in a sense over a rather long period of time.

P: As you look back on it, was Lanzillotti a positive or a negative factor in its

M: If you are looking at the finished product, I think that Lanzillotti was a positive factor
in its development. Now, whether or not Lanzillotti was positive in the sense that he
took the initiative to instigate this, I do not know.

P: He may not have been very enthusiastic about losing control of accounting if it were
to become a freestanding operation.

M: But I do not think, given the structure that they finally worked out, where the dean of
the College of Business is also dean of the School of Accounting, that he lost much
personal control.

P: I think that was threatened, though, for a while.

M: I am sure that it may have been, but I do not think it tended to nearly become a


P: Were you on the search committees for any of the faculty or administrators that
were brought into the school?

M: No.

P: What about after you became associate dean? Was the school in any way under
your jurisdiction or supervision?

M: No. There was a continuing struggle--I guess that would be the right term to
describe it--between Lanzillotti and John Simmons and later [Hadley] Schaefer, the
director of the school who succeeded John Simmons.

P: Is he still around?

M: So far as I know. I may have the names a little bit mixed up.

P: I do not know. It is not ringing a bell with me at all.

M: It would not be any trouble to find out.

P: That is easily found out.

M: One thing that Lanzillotti tried to do was have the accounting budget funneled
through the office of the associate dean.

P: That would have been you.

M: Yes. Simmons and his successor resisted this, so I did not usually see what they
had recommended or copies of their budget. I do not know how that has been
resolved in more recent years.

P: I gather that the relationship between Simmons and Lanzillotti was not always the
smoothest, or else Simmons would not have given up the directorship and moved
into this position with the [endowed] chair.

M: I think that is probably right. The budget was one of those things. I do not think
appointments to the faculty of the School of Accounting and recommendations for
promotion and salary adjustments go through the associate dean, as they do in the
other departments.

P: Did you always have good, warm relationships with Lanzillotti?


M: I never had a run-in with Lanzillotti.

P: Yes, but that is not really what I am asking. I am asking if it was a warm, close
working relationship.

M: I am not sure I know how to interpret the term warm. We worked together rather
closely, and obviously there is a personal relationship there, but I do not think
Lanzillotti is a person you get real close to. Maybe I am not, either. But I would say
we had a cordial working relationship.

P: No problems, then?

M: No.

P: I know he has been kind of a controversial personality on the campus--not
controversial in a negative way, but maybe colorful, volatile, however you want to
call it. [laughter]

M: That is right.

P: I can see how that might upset some people. And I know he is fixed in his ways.

M: I know there was a lot of discussion among some of the people in the college,
particularly department chairmen, during Don Hart's tenure that what we needed
was a forceful dean who would go over to Tigert Hall and pound the table and get
results. But he did not [do that], whereas Lanzillotti did, and I think regardless of
how you view him as an individual you would have to agree that he achieved

P: Yes, certainly in terms of salary and other money benefits for the college.

M: Not only for the college. I think Lanzillotti deserves a lot of credit for some of the
general increase in fund-raising for the University.

P: Oh, sure. Do you think that this was a wise decision to set up a School of
Accounting, as you look back on it now?

M: Well, to the extent that it has helped raise funds, yes, although [that was] for the
most part, basically for the school itself. This has to have had some rub-off for
funds coming into the college and into the rest of the University. It has probably
given other administrators incentives to undertake some of the things they may not
have undertaken otherwise.


P: You do not want to judge, however, the success of the school just on the basis of its
ability to raise funds, do you?

M: Well, to the extent that this helps increase personnel and programs, I think it has a
positive effect.

P: Do you think we are turning out a better-qualified student as a result of the kind of
curriculum that the school has, as compared with the Department of Accounting?

M: Yes, to the extent that the curriculum of the School of Accounting has not been
permitted to become too narrow. It has remained broad-based in terms of other
disciplines as well as accounting. I think there have been some improvements. I
have very little basis on which to judge the finished product, Sam.

P: Arnold, I have been, as you know, a member of the College of Arts and Sciences
teaching in the history department, and one of the things that we have always
thought over the years--no formal discussion on the thing--that the students that go
through the College Business do not come out as humanists. They have been so
loaded down with courses in economics and finance and insurance and whatever
that they do not know what the rest of the world is like and they, as a result, really
do not adjust themselves. How do you feel about something like that?

M: Well, I think the accusation is probably true, that students who graduate from
business administration in general do not have the humanitarian courses or the
sociological courses that give them the base they really should have for leadership
in the business world. But short of extending the time required for degrees, I am not
sure how you are going to accomplish [anything more along the humanitarian line].

P: Were these matters that were discussed by the faculty at the time that you were

M: From time to time--as major curriculum revisions occur, [which is] about every ten

P: I know I did an interview with the first dean of the College of Medicine [George T.
Harrell; see UFHC11, University of Florida Oral History Archives], and he said that
when he came here in the 1950s, he was insistent that the medical students take
regular courses in history, in English, a language, and so on, although that has
pretty much disappeared from their curriculum, too. I wonder if there was the same
sort of enthusiasm or emphasis or drive as far as your college was concerned.

M: To increase the humanities?


P: Well, to enable the students to have enough electives so that they could take a
course in U.S. history, a course in English literature, a drama course, a music
course, or whatever.

M: It has been an objective that has been voiced from the time I first entered college, I
guess, Sam, particularly with relationship to colleges of business and, I assume,
agriculture and others.

P: And engineering.

M: And engineering. But while we provide for certain free electives, all too frequently
the student takes those electives in the discipline he is concentrating in and not in
the disciplines that they were set up to provide for.

P: One of the purposes of the General College, later the University College, when it
was set up in the 1930s was to provide that kind of basic education. A number of
the colleges on the campus right from the very beginning (engineering, for instance,
was one, and agriculture to a degree also; I do not know about business) were
opposed to that because they said, "You are taking away the first two years, and
the student, instead of taking English, really needs to be taking accounting."

M: I am sure that faculty in the College of Business were on both sides; some would
have supported the University College concept because of its broadening influence,
and others would have wanted more time for areas within the college. Whether we
have gained much or notl do not know.

P: Well, the University College went out of existence at the end of the 1970s. [Charles
F.] Sidman is brought in as the new dean of the College of Liberal Arts and
Sciences. You are an associate dean in the College of Business at the time. Was
this a matter of concern to you, to your colleagues, to other administrators in your

M: If it was a concern, Sam, I do not remember discussing it very much with anyone.

P: It was not a matter, then, where the faculty talked about it at a faculty meeting.

M: No. One of the trends that was of some concern--and I am not sure whether it has
continued since I retired--was the extent to which over the years the faculty seemed
to become less and less concerned with the overall University curriculum.

P: In other words, "This is our area, our turf, and we want to protect it"?


M: Well, I am not sure how much of that is involved. "Let someone else worry about
the curriculum requirements. I will do my thing and do my research. That's the way
it is."

P: Now, the college obviously ranks up not only regionally but nationally now, does it

M: Yes.

P: Can you say that with enthusiasm?

M: Well, I think I can say it with enthusiasm. I think to some extent in doing this we
have decreased the accessibility of the college for a large number of average
students, and the success of the graduates, of course, depends on the quality of the
input you have, the curriculum instruction [and] inspiration they get while they are
here, and then the availability of positions once they graduate. In struggling to have
faculty recognition outside of the college that is necessary in order to gain the
evaluations of excellence in program, in the top twenty-five or the top fifteen or
whatever, means concentrating [more] on publication and less on teaching. I am
not sure just how successful this is going to be for the college in the long run.

P: Arnold, when did the MBA program become part of the college curriculum?

M: Sam, I could not really answer that.

P: Was that during your watch, during the time that you were still on the faculty?

M: Oh, yes. The MBA program goes way back.

P: Oh does it?

M: Yes. I was trying to think whether it was before I came or if it was after I got here.
Somehow it is not real clear in my mind just when the MBA program started.

P: I did not realize it had that much age. I thought it was something that came about in
the 1970s. But [it came into existence] much earlier than that, is what you are

M: Yes. There were points at which it was changed considerably, but I am not sure
just when these times were.

P: What else should I ask you, Arnold, about the college and about the University?


M: I think you have covered my body of knowledge, and maybe I have said some
things I did not have very much knowledge of.

P: You said everything that I wanted to hear. Let me just add a couple of personal
things that I would like to get for the tape. You lost your first wife, and you
remarried again. To whom and when?

M: Rita Garris, on January 27, 1962.

P: Arnold, what have you done since you have retired?

M: Well, the first year or two after I retired, Sam, I worked with [W.] Andrew
McCollough on writing a history of banking in Florida for a ten-year period--1970-
1980, 1971-1981, something like that--for the Florida Bankers Association [History
of Banking in Florida, 1976-1982 (1984)].

P: By the way, are their offices still in Orlando?

M: Yes. They are in the process of moving to Tallahassee, which I hate to see,
because it places them right on the doorstep of FSU.

P: Maybe something could happen to prevent that. [laughter] So for a couple of years
you worked with McCollough.

M: Yes.

P: Did that get done?

M: That got done.

P: Is it a published volume?

M: It is a published volume.

P: Is it part of a series on the history of banking in Florida?

M: Yes. So far as I know, it is the last in the series that has been written.

P: Does it go back into the nineteenth century?

M: No. I think the original one may have.


P: [James E.] Judd Dovell, you know, did an early history of banking in the 1950s
[History of Banking in Florida, 1928-1954 (1955)].

M: Yes. Judd and Jim Richardson got started on these things. Judd never could get
Jim to write, I think, and he took it over for a while alone. Then someone down at
[the University of] Central Florida did one 1964-1965.

P: And you brought yours, the one you did with McCollough, up to 1980?

M: 1982.

P: Was this a major research writing job?

M: I thought it was, but it was not very creative. I am not sure really how much
interesting history is involved, because you have to do an awful lot to get the
personalities involved. I am not sure you have available all the materials you need
for such things as the Southeast effort to absorb Florida National back in the--I
think--1970s. Then there were other internal struggles similar to those. It becomes
largely a relating of changes in the banking size, composition, mergers, officers, etc.
As a result, I really do not think we have achieved a great deal in writing our

P: What did you do after you finished this project with McCollough?

M: I have not really done anything much. I had a heart attack and a quadruple bypass
in 1984. Since then I have had a hernia repair and a ruptured appendix removed.
For the last three years I have been struggling with Parkinson's [disease].

P: You sound like a walking disaster. [laughter] I mean, why would a man thirty-eight
years old get involved in all of these incidental kinds of things?

M: Well, the doctor told me when I went to the emergency room with an ache in my
right side, "You cannot have appendicitis. You are too old."

P: [laughter] You proved him wrong, Arnold.

M: Well, he sent me home, Sam. I went back the next day, and he sent me home
again. Then I went back towards the end of that week, and the doctor who sent me
home the first time was off in North Carolina looking at colleges for his daughter,
and they called in a new doctor. He said, "You have appendicitis," and proceeded
to operate. He took out my appendix plus about six inches of my large intestine.

P: And he was right, then.


M: He was right.

P: The first one was wrong.

M: Right.

P: What do you do with your time now? Are you a television watcher, a reader?

M: Well, I try to read, but I have been going through eye-adjustment problems. As
soon as they get my glasses fixed to where I can read out of them, they are no
longer compatible with my changing eyesight. At the moment I am supposed to be
on the list for a new doctor that is leaving Shands and setting up practice in
Gainesville to tighten up my eyelids. Notice I have a droop?

P: I had not noticed it, no.

M: Well, he says it will not help much, but it will help some.

P: You have not had much chance to travel, then, as a result of all of these disasters
for the last ten years.

M: Yes, and now my wife does not want to travel with me.

P: Oh, I do not blame her at all. Why should she travel with a broken-down guy? She
can get somebody livelier than you. [laughter]

M: That is not the problem. The problem is she is afraid of what will happen, which is
another way of saying the same thing.

P: Oh, well. I just thought she did not want to be seen with an old guy. [laughter]

M: Well, every once in a while we do run into someone who thinks we are father and


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