|
FB 34A
Subject: James R. Ford
Interviewer: "Button Project"
Place: Tallahassee
7/25/75
SJ
I: We get our a n5 from the Oral History Project, at the University
of Florida, and what they'll do is, they'll type up a transcript
of this interview, and they'll send it to you, and if you wish
to make this part of the Oral History Project, you can edit the
transcript, sign a release form, and send it back, and then they'll
put it on the shelves for future use, but that's only with your
written approval, that they'll do that.
F: Okay.
I: Okay, the first section of questions are trying to determine how
well the yoting rights haened in 1965, /hat's how^ blacks take
part inApolitics. What was the first year that you registered to
vote?
F: I really don't remember, but I have registered to vote long, long
Act, at s ^
I; Would, did you register to vote when you were first eligible, or...
F: Basically, the opportunity to register to vote in Leoi County
V CA fCaltU ti
4hd neverAbeen oyx issue so I can't, in responding to that aspects
W4 i4t I
of the voting rights act,Ai4E! probably) is Jg momentum 4? other
places, and the attention being called to it, through the media,
and through many other things, certainly, and of course voter
registration drives that have been put on here by the Tallahassee
Voter's League, has helped tremendously in getting more blacks
FB 34A
registered to vote. CertainlyA I would assume that there was
a certain degree of timidity on the part of blacks in the earliest
part of it, because, first of all, it was a new experience, it
hadn't been proven to them that they had any successes, or that it
made a heck of a lot of difference in elections, so, many of them,
cre raviL in
and we still have some blacks now, whoAetren-t very intelligent
on my part, still communities and not
get elected to exercise the right to do so, though it's.....
I: So, you were never personally turned et-+?
F: No, I, I'm not knowledgeable that that has occurred.
I: The, you mentioned what the Tallahassee League of Voters, of the
registration Qae-, was there any other registrationWA that took place?
F: Not by the supervisor of elections. They just, stayed at city hall. or
at the courthouse, but no one ever contributed anyone rom i )e 'CIeSri ,
I: When did this registration drive take place, how many months agod-d
F: Most of i-~a I would assume,Atakent+ place, there's been more
active involvement in the past five or six years.
I; And they've been fairly successful?
Fcurl/ \h\/^~sv -'iAes4e
F: They've been ve- successful. 4 what has happened i l.- books;
registration books have been taken out into the various communities
so that they're more convenient to the people, and they didn't have
to come down to City Hall, or to the Leon County Courthouse. We
a V14 kl'cL
feel that eaee you vote, once you register, you are a registrants
for either the city or the county, and _oQ a registration.
I: Are there any things that have prevented blacks from registering
to vote in this district, either now4 or in the past?
F: I'm not certain, but I know that there are none now, I could not
FB 34A
respond to the past accurately. I would assume perhaps that the
biggest thing in the past may have been fear of what would occur,
but then, I know of no overt act that prohibited it. There may
Gadsdey
have been fears because they workedjust like in Geaton County.
There really isn't anything that I know that, just overtly)prevents
blacks from registering over there, but the fear of losing their
or v'Ieous
jobs
of thing rather than what happens at the City Hall, County Courthouse.
I: Some of these things4appear r1e l''oS yo Vu, T' Sue. Did you
look over that list and check the appropriate columns as far as
i f preve.Kn-h'k -P 4-0
what you think are important,-a4-aa-mablacks5egister_ votef, and
what you percieve, what people in this area perceive as being
important, and could you comment on each one?
F: Well, the first one, I think, is very important, that's economic
dependence on whites. Fear of physical violence from whites, I
don't think is important, I believe it carries a zero. Complicated
registration forms, I don't think that that is one .either.
Poor registration hours, I don't think is important, you can register
any hour of the day. It's normal business and I think that maybe,
I'm not a good example of it, but I think that there's just some
things that, if they mean anything to you, you're supposed to put
something in the kitty,Ahours are from eight to five, or whatever
they are, and other citizens will be here, I don't think the black
citizens should be given any preferential treatment. So, I would
have to e-og n also respond to that. Registration is not held
often enough; registration is a continuous process Aany day that
you go in there, so that's not a, you can register any day, except
FB 34A
the days it's closed prior to the election, obviously. So, in-
Leon
difference of blacks to voting in -Le County, we don't have any
problems, so I would have to) ere a.oin consider it not
important. Now that's the way I view all those questions. The
first one I think isf,,important.
I: How about, are there any problems here of re-registration
procedures, some places, if you haven't voted in a two year time
period, they drop you from the roll. Has that been a problem, as
far as registration?
F: No, as far as I can determine, ,o, but the registration rolls are
purged periodically, and they should be because in our city, in
order to have any semblance of validity to the voter registration
rolls, we are governmentally and educationallyAcity totally, and
we have a lot of people who come in, a lot of people who leave.
So names, addresses of people on the rolls, that should be purged
periodically, and an individual who doesn't exercise his vote in
one or two year's period, in my opinion, doesn't want to vote.
I mean, there's no point in pussyfooting around with an issue,
either you want to be a citizen or you don't.
I: Has there been any problem with the drawing of district lines,
F: Initially, way back from looking at some lines, and I've since
learned that that really wasn't the motive, the motive was another
motive, but it did, it did in effect, do the same thing, .n
individual was protecting, was protecting for tax purposes something,
and had zero to do with voting. See, because some of the land
was owned by some influential landlords and some various other
things, and it, when we really got down to the nitty-gritty part
FB 34A 5
of it, they weren't i, .. out as much as they were qe frqnUcr'i
someeconomic aspect of it.
I: I'd like to ask you some questions about your election campaigns.
F: Sure.
Uk vj"e 1 I
I: Z4Sa-r-e you able to campaign freely? Threatened n any way4your
campaign?
F: Never.
I: Were you handicapped by a lack of money, campaign money, in either
of your elections? C e o i J t 1vi .
\et e rcieo ii '14ii;
F: Not really. The first one, prelim-in ry respon ,Athe first time
or
I felt so, because I had no idea of what, what it should be, ertd
vJe f
what it should not be. We found, I found that,Alooking at it
by virtue of the fact that I won with little funds we've
indicated that more funds, perhaps, wouldn't have done much
better, you know. I can't equate it in that respect, but, when
I won the primary, going into the run-off, we were broke, and (Ce c k<)
obviously now is the time when we needed the funds more than we
needed them in the primary. So, from my campaign treasurer., and ~e people
-ho hi rj r
-he worked real hard with me, we just worked hard physically.
But it was at stark determination, I think then, and the_ not
depending on the media to tell the story as much as getting out
aefrr physically, everywhere, I think that's the difference, frankly,
and I think it was a good thing. I think on the other hand, had
I had more money, I could have lost the election by depending on
television or some other media-to do some things that I would not
have k-n.. .rha.T thpy wr dring, by virtue of the fact that I couldn't
afford to do them any other way. And these were alternatives.
It meant, see, we campaigned here in December and January, it's
FB 34A 6
/ou'VC 3 of
the coldest time of the year, and when you .e a to go out and
physically walk the street and meet everybody election, and
everybody, all the employees going into the House, and
t sanitation workers,Ayou've got to be out there seven, six-
thirty, seven o'clock, and you've got to try to meet two or three
of those things, it makes a difference, but it makes a difference
to'the individual too if they see you out there in the cold, they
say at least he's concerned, you know, so it's different kinds of
I: I keep interupting, every time you take......
F: No, go right ahead, I can adjust to that.
I: Okay, why did you decide to run for office?
F: That's a long story. I had, I had... I never had any political
ambitions, once upon a time, I thought about 4e mnis'v but I
never had any use nor any ambitions to get into politics. I was
invited to Father Brooks church, that's St. Michael, my old A e( d5
church over here -Tre 'lov) A&M UNiversity, and at that time
there was a group of FSU students, and a couple of interested
whites who were forming a coalition between the blacks and whites
as related to putting two of the present, two of the commissioners,
at that time on the commission, to get rid of them. And I was
invited to the meeting, and I had been approached by an individual
who later became, not an op0onc^, but a person who was in the
opposition to be on some philosophical issues today. Anyway, this
&J- !- ou,90t
lady had invited me to come, CoIjU she 5 rtJA to come. Not to be a
candidate, not anything, but they were trying to get people in there
to listen to the cause. At that particular time, I carried with
me the person who ended up being my campaign manager, because he
FB 34A
is very influential deacon in one of the churches across town, and
a very good friend, and a coworker with me in the school system.
He was an administrators and so was I, on the school administration
for twenty-three years. SoW-no, I've been in education twenty-three
years, .eein-n administrator ten of those years. I want to correct
that, because I taught vocational and o(ecr courses. We
went to the meeting and I'm sure you know Reverend Goodqnor you've
who',
heard of Reverend Gooden, Reverend Goodois an individual here,Abeen
very vocal in the militant side of equal rights, and soA F that
aUu- ort or
particular time, Reverend Goodeltook the A and liberty of saying
that he represented in the, in assessing the strengths, .e pointed
out to the whites, when they were talking about the candidates) that
the blacks already had their candidate, and they were all ready to
go. And nobody would name who their candidates were, and nobody
would do anything, purely at the meeting, as I sat there, but it
was until that occurred that I didn't respond. I sat through the
whole thing and they were pointing out, and the whites themselves
were, we need to be together, because we have got a month now to
do this thing, and you know, they'll go over to south city, ye--l44
just take care of that south city. We're going to have to go over
there in a month and re-educate these people to do this and tb do
that, and if you all will commit to one of our candidates,Awe're
going to see if we can't get these two candidates elected. Well4
now, I sat4 and I listened to that whole bunch of strategy, qualifying
time hasn't even, it's just begun, and I didn't want to put a pin
in their balloons, but I, at that particular time, when I made the
ofP
statements that I made to them, I had zero intention -i- becoming
involved politically, one way orAnother, they drove me into it,
_E_
FB 34A
and I'll tell you why, how it happened. They really triggered it.
I got up, and said, "I'm James R. Ford, I reside at 2029 Nort4A Yerid;(n
Road, and as most of you can see by looking at me, I'm black. No
one, no place, anytime since I've lived in this city has ever asked
my opinion of who represented me, nor do anyone represent me that
I don't choose to. So I cannot understand how the good Reverend,
at this particular time, can attest to the fact that a candidate
that represents black has been chosen. I'm not knowledgable of
that. But I do, I would like to bring to your information,Afor
your information, several factors that I listenedA as an outsider
and disinterested party, to your, to the techniques that you're
talking about. Now I said, let's recap one or two things. I've
lived in Tallahassee, I'm a native Tallahasseef. .And my great-
great-grandfather used to be Coh5sble in Lee County. So I do
Swore5 ifl oC *40
know a little bit about the Tolkw4aw and me-ays a3 thiscounty. Now,
you have openly said at this meeting tonight the following: that
the blacks don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting any
votes out of south city or should they go over there. That's,
those are your statements, not mine. How in the heck do you think
in four weeks you're going to change what's been embedded for
generations, if you can't go over there to solicit their votes now,
how do you propose that they're going to vote when they go to the
polls? So any blacks kfe-t fall for that's. e-stupid. Number twoj
you have also assumed that the two black, that the black and the
white candidate, Act 4cr' noarat o 1i0oy ,-a put together is
the only people who is going to be in the race to split up all the
votes over there that you're talking about. You don't have the
slightest idea right now whether somebody -s, other than you,
FB 34A
sitting in this meeting who plans to run for this,Ajob. And I s5a l-
lD you -t you +hlinl adboA
would suggestAvery seriously -4hatyet-ou b k what you're embarking
on. becausee the plans, as I see them are doomed to fail." So
obviously, youae"Couli heaur A 12V)A at this point. Because I
,abWov +Fe b +How-t
don't think it dcamed otvjhctfTthis little group here now is not the
only people who are going to qualify. And we might have five blacks
in there, not me, and if he's got one there, I might not choose
that individual, ou see. So now, you've got it split up.*
That was the first meeting, they scheduled another one, I still had
made no commitments. one way or another, but when I got ready to
leave, everybody wanted to know, was I a candidate. And my wife
dld tuCtut 4e e hled',Vij.
had got an invitations and she was there too, A And Hermanveas back
had never, now this had started his wheels to turn. What am
SaaS a c4d4q7dfd/<
pulling off, so when we got ready to leave, everybody asked meAag~a-
or if I were a candidate, I said, "P/ssibly." And I really did it t'o
heckle. I did it for the hell of it. And I had zero intention,
one way or another, I hadn't even given it any concern, but as I
walked from the church to the car to come back across town, my wife
stopped me and asked me,what was I inferring? and Herman asked me,
what's goingon, wh~y didn't you tell me you were going, you were
a candidate? Well now, I hadn't given it any thought of becoming
a candidate, one way orAg(other, so I said toA1bs, I said, "If I
-were a big enough' damn fool to run, would you be my campaign manager?"
He said, "If you're a big enough damn fool to run,.yes." He said,
"I'll tell you what, why don't we go down to the bus station and have
a sandwich, I'm hungry." ItA-s eleven o'clock at night, and let's
just talk about the possibilities, you know, kick it around. I said,
yeah o my wife saidA going on home ouet going r i.
yeah. so my wife said, "P*P going on home, Ia going in r"
FB 34A 10
So I said, "You take the carA I'll catch a rideAhome9 So that's,4 e's
really how it started. No, no plans, no nothing, we went down
there and we talked about all the good people we thought we could
yv knovJ, 445i
push in-to run. I still hadn't made any committmentsA was all
(ctlLckleJ "6f evemrboc c t
in jest. In fact, it stayed three days in jest.A Xo in the meantime,
I went back to the:-no,,in the meantime, I decided that I would
run, I didn't know that there were no qualifications* or no
qualifying FPeC and all this, and I didi'L Li;k o+hr" public F('5,
that ten percent of the salary was what the qualifying fee was, so
the SQIdct,5 commission was three thousand dollars, I went to the
credit union, and withdrew my three hundred dollars, and I went down
Collec, mie apvd
to city hall ntd qualifieh.. I qualified, the manq/ p- asked me for
three hundred dollars, I never gave it to him.A I kept standing
there like an ignoramus waiting for him to ask for it. But he
didn't4 and I didn't, so they gave me a copy of the codes and
everything, they were very, very nice, I think. There was nothing
40f +he- 3 JccIK
that I could request,Ainformation or data, that they didn't.-gr
42LUrnlkh.
a f"... In fact, I had-est experienced no real negative problems
~ r f g1-
in my, as it relates to anything, for the political Bp. Except,
and this was on a bribe basis, that when we qualified, when everybody
jot qualified in it, and. -rg we went back to the meeting, there was
and elderly man named marcy, who decided that I should pull out
because I didn't have a chance of winning, and he had a chance of
winning, and we could get rid of these two SOB's on the commission.
That was the objective to be done. Well, my second meeting down
there with them, I decided to tell them full point blank, I said,
FB 34A
"Obviously I cannot count on anyone in this coalition to support
my campaign, but I have announced that I am going to rune and I_
have no intentions of compromising, nor do I have any intentions
of withdrawing. So if you all want to run your two candidates,
there you are, it's open season." So he did run, /nd I think
he got something like two hundred votes. I beat my opponent in
the primary, but I did not have a of votes. So now,
I've got to go and try to pick up all those other votes. Because
you have to have a of votes to win. And I think we had
something like six or eight people in'the primary that I was in.
But, needless to say, I won it, and I won it by a good margin, he pleIC
e re e -mo ,nd I've-tried to do my best to show my appreciation
by being concerned about their welfare.
I: Which political organization, ,which party do you belong to?
F: Democrat. But we are non-partisan.
I: Did, so you didn't recieve....
F: And we are at large.
50
I: And you didn't recieve,Ayou don't recieve any assistance from....
F: Hri kw.
I;Or.Wivbae were the two or three, most important issues on which you
campaigned?
F: I really didn't campaign Jfn issues. I campaigned on the fact that
I had better ideas and could do it better. That was all.
I: And your second campaign?
F: Second campaign, I didn't have to run. But I was on the polls until
three minutes of, the registration qualifyingA rather. Three
minutes before qualifying date, same person who talked me into
going to church had another candidate there to run against me because
she was opposed to anybody running o-n e- ~ which is fine,
FB 34A
philosophically, it makes no difference. But, eight o'clock the
the next morning, for some strange reason, he withdrew, so I was
I: What were the, what do feel are the main issues facing blacks in
the community?
F: Right now? Housing, job opportunities, employment, you know.
j-o5 beca5-s6
I guess we just sing that same song and danceAabout anything, -+i-
that's what it is, I mean, if you -they got a good job, and they
got a good house, there isn't aIy4- g else I can think about ~'4s
commian 1big thing, you know.
tfo c&+tevlrfih
I: On this next section, I'm going to ask you questions about, Wme
Some of the factors t -esa on1d0diov thatAblacks that win office,
you're elected
.and es-~c &s k at large, you say. What percentage of blacks
of voting age4 in your history, or at the, at large history, are
registered to vote?
F: I would assume perhaps seventy percent.
I: Is that comparable to the white eligible population that's registered?
F: That would be difficult for me to say, but perhaps not.
I: Would it be higher or lower?
F: Perhaps lower.
I: About what percentage of blacks who are registered to vote, do you
estimate, actually voted when you ran?
F: Forty or fifty percent. yoe
I: In both elections? Do you feel you got any white votesiA/rom
white voters??
F: Do I feelA the majority of my votes in office is, have been white.
I would say that sixty five or seventy percent of my votes have
been white.
1
FB 34A'
I:~ lt I ^ v f l f)Y
I: InAthat first election -ihat you had, how many white opp onfAblack
F p:onem dSid you ohg yI mem r?
F: I didn't have a black oopnV in my group, he was in another group.
-4k erc
And I think -t was six, six of us in it, I think, 4g% I would have to
really look at that. Kind of vague to me now, but there were at
least that many.
I: And what percentage of the vote did you get, do you remember? In
the primary, and then in general?
F: In the primary, I think in the primary, it was something like
forty-two percent, or something. Between thirty and forty-two
percent, something like that. But see, it was,....
I: You were the largest vote getter then?
F: Yes.
I: In the run-off election.
F: In the run-off election, I won.
I: By, what was your.....
F: I think it was differentiac ajnd os5I;st it was something like
eighteen or nineteen hundred votes.
I: P&rc&n-[j \AliSuh
F: Well, you mean of: total/lpotential votes.?
I: No, the percentage that you got in the general election.
F: In the general? Oh, I think it was fifty-three or"ni -
I: In this next section, we're going to ask you questions to try to
FlornJ kh v been able +o
determine how well black O 'cid0(' 1 (VI uppJer.- 4-,--a-hy of eany-
benefit4X those people they represent. In what ways do you think
that you helped blacks in your district by holding office?
F: Well, let me address myself to that question typically. One, two
FB 34A
three. I never campaigned, nor do I subscribe to the premise of
helping any specific group. That's not the, that's not the duty of
a public official, I wouldn't give a rap who he is. And I think
be,
any public official who subscribes to that premise,Ahe, black or
white, is a disgrace to the office. So, that is a very personal
opinion, and I think that I would like to feel that when I elect
anybody, that he is concerned about the total welfare of the people
that he serves. Now, I want to address that question from that
position. That, obviously, there were some situations that should
have been rectified, that should have been corrected, that should
have been brought to the attention of the city commission and -*r
council, and something positive and m ASJ done about it. Those
situations, many of those situations have been rectified, like
sewer, like street lights, like sidewalks, like paved streets, like
running water, like parks and recreation, and like being on boards,
advisory boards, and examining those as they relate to the city, and
anW eVTllide&iv
hospital boards ,many of the decision making or the eif- rung
bodies of the city. And there is another way of making a contribution.
There is a certain degree of things that prevent things from
happening to a group of people by virtue that you are there. That
they aren't going to happen, that could happen if you were not
knowledable of the plans for them to occur. So that would probably
be indirect.
I: Can you give some examples of some of those indirect things?
F: Well, if we were contemplating, I'll give you an example of one
that I killed. There was a ten percent tax, if you want to call it,
or whatever, to be on, ~- --- cLOS h boarf, all kinds of
oil, presently, you know. ASout two or three years ago,Ahell if
B 34A 15
if you're going to do that to kerosene, and various other things,
those affect more definitely blacks, who heat with it. You know,
they don't have electric heat, they don't have things, and they
dobe
presently the laws ,not cover some of these kinds of fuels.
a c T0r. 0kCv ^jhel were -'ViCkrj abo'
So obviously, that couldAthe same thingAte done, .adAf^L~sb
Srv 4, h s 1'9 a k)n 4- 1 j7 stuck in {c axC YnoiJo.
*~s5, Set4w)r tp[ Oi Av ,because basically, the people who
are hurt by that are basically going to be blacks who couldn't
afford to do it, the sewer wasn't there those years when the
city did everything for free. All you had to do was live in the
+h-re and "hC
city, the line went down 4~a, taps were made, you just paid
twenty five dollars. Now, we run the sewer in the black neighborhoods,
o uh, uh rA "idv-r90 c-eJ Pi'fh
you're supposed to put.a two hundred fifty dollars forA--al- m -
A-eorn Iteufls ano
ollar sA charge, plus a hundred and twenty .five dollars -fppi, fee,4you
can see who's being, how it is. 14@et people yet paid
city taxes, +-ay everything else, to pay for the others that are
there, so obviously, that's OUV issue lAcI ii's bech an^, and
of course, I'm goingA~s that i$SSLe In fact, I had stalled it
for four and a half years,so...
I: What, if anything, has prevented you from doing a better jobl)
1cnlttmj
/specially in regard toAblacks?
F: Lack of communication, and I want to put some of the burden back
where it belongs, lack of communication of black leadership.
Bringing up positive approaches of sed sorlb. solving a problem.
Making one aware of a problem in a positive manner rather than in
a negative, demanding, and dcrgt manner, which there's such
a thing as tuning somebody out, and some of them have succeeded in
tuning me out on some issues. Lack of recognizing that you've got
to put something in if you want something back. For an instance,
FB 34A
the reason we have some streets in black communities not being
ounce'
paved, they want to move a damn Sou&e one inch for property for
the sidewalk and the street to be widened, and it's substandard.
Do you follow what I'm saying? Or you get four people on it who
don't want to do nothing, and won't. So, the street doesn't get
paved. Two blocksof it you got paved, up to two blocks, and you
end up here with a dead street. Now, you don't expect to watch
downtown, to go down there and they're all going to say, we're
going to condemn it and spend taxpayer's money to pave two blocks
of 4 black neighborhood that they don't have any, the peoplenhardly
going to go down there and vote for them in the first place, you
know, I mean, you've got to look at your situationApositive and
realistically. One thing that we can't look at every issue that
affects a group or f affects people based on it's racial, what
happens racially in it, you've got to look at it, there are many,
many other factors that lead to decisions that are made, that no
one ever thought about, whether it had, whether it hurt a handful
of blacks, or whether it hurt a handful of whites, for that matter.
/4ihe point probably, Awe-re the problem has come up whether itfwa?
politically practical, whether it's economically the thing you had
to do, many decisions that we make now, that we know that we don't
have any choices. They are economic decisions that are brought about
because of the environmental thingsAwe have to do, and many other
things that the only damn place that you can dig this ditch might
.happen to have to go through a black neighborhood. The hills, and
everything goes there, that's the property they end up buying, now
where the hell are you going to run it? You say it's a racial issue;
IT j, /t'Is a issue. It says nowt that, look, you've got a problem,
FB 34A
you've got to solve it, these people are affected. How do you
S ctyd C K'u I
want to compensate -he1 tA iWhat are you going to do, it's
going to be misunderstood. And gets to be things that that issue
had nothing to do with it. The same issue would have been true
if it had been whites living there, but the probability of whites
having been living there in the first place^ because they have
enough money to make sure and they have enough knowledgeAto buy
a A UYL piece of property and build on it. They're subject to
flooding, or they're subject to any areaAwhose best use might end
up being for a drain. So, you get back into an. economic
I: So, to b~ai it up, has criticism or lack of support from the
black community i Vcde/ed \0V I i i' and your holding office,
?
F: Ask that question again.
I: Okay. Has criticism or lack of support from the black community
hindered you in holding office? ,
F: No, no. I can appreciate havingAa greater degree of input from
the community than I get, and here again, it's, every issue has
two sides, I have an obligation to keep them better informed than
perhaps I do, because the newspaper and the media, first of all,
cannot and then afterwards, do not cater to much of the positive
things that, and not justAcommision do, but most governmental bodies,
they tend to play up very heavily. the things that youA become
controversial in nature. Because they say on newspapers, and we
recognize that, no criticism of them, but I guess you've got, you've
got to keep it, just like the kid who makes A's in school is never
going to get in the newspaper. aste the guy who can run, and
I'm not criticizing that, I think it's good. He might not could
FB 34A
make two X's on a piece of paper, but he can run down a field and
score for the team, he's going to make the press. 4-trhin-k jt's
good. I thing that both parts need to be there, but you have to
recognize the fact that they are all contributing factors to
improve the general lifestyle. Second thing, the second part of
,I-
it, unless a politician, or a commissioner has got some staffed
personnel to do some of it, he simply can't do it. It's really
an impossible job, because somebody has to put it together and
disseminate it. And at the local level, there's no such agency,
and yet at the local level, that is the point where the John Q.
Vleorness
Public experiences the greatest impact of his)ofhisA to government.
If Washington do something, it's the commission who catches hell
about it. 44ih the prices that he's going to put on fuel oil, the
commission's going to catch hell about -~i-t enl bi(( it's
the commission going to catch hell about the environmental irregulations,
it's going to be the commission who's going to catch hell about
everything that comes down ti? lack of money, the lack of funding.
You name it, and it's going to be on our backs. Why can't you
fund this, why can't you do what you did last year? And all.of
this must be done, and give a five percent across the board and
escalation on every item that you buy from Gem clips, to supplies,
and equipment, and generators for the power system, power plant.
And we never know, right now the worst thing in the world, we're
probably the poorest oriented business, and if business had to
operate like we are operating now, they'd probably go bankrupt, and
if a bank were to do itA they'd be closed. But every time we
sign a contract on a bid, we sq rmeaftE. and sew just this city,
every city in the state is signing open-end contracts to vendors
FB 34A
because they are subject to escalation clauses at the time
delivered, but which we do not know what to encumber. And we
do not know, nor does the auditor, can he tell you specifically
what the hell you have. You, you follow what I'm saying? So
it's a, at best, it is a very, very time consuming kind of thing
now, and ever after. There was a time when it was a very simple
thing to do, when the towns were smaller, when:,there were fewer
regulations, -. nobody was thinking about the environment, nobody
was thinking about all the other things, it was very easy to set
up and make some decisions, all you had to do was tell the police
chief, if anybody comes and breaks a law, put them in jail. Pave
a few streets, and one or two other things, and you were a good
man. That ain't the game any more. The game is trying to figure
how you can get your share of the monies that are allocated to match
all the other things you've got to do. And in order to do that,
you've got to spend ninety percent of your time qualifying and
getting consultants to give you the information that you already
know better than the consultants do. But, what it <. But you've
got to pay him because the government in Washington, and L HUD,
and everybody else ain't going to take your word, they've got to
get the word from R.W. Beck and(Co that you've got to pay half
of the grant9 /o tell you. SoA sometimes I look at the whole
mess, and I see, I understand why John Q. Public, the taxpayer,
gets mad asAhell, because I do.
I: This is similar to that other...
(BREAK IN TAPE)
(END OF SIDE ONE)
FB 34A 20
(SIDE TWO)
VA/ha. J rnCccilj
F: ...have not experience the myriad of problems,Aas it related to
these two factors, as the key, would perhaps, as many other cities.
We, until Commonwealth folded up, we didn't have a high degree of
unemployment, and a lot of the problems that are there, that now
that would be basic problems, were in some degree, not really
important issues, you know, not the major ones. Are you running
that?
I: Yeah, we've got it oing.
+o respofn
F: Okay. So -he-re poins to your questions here...thank you. I
would have to say, to number one, not, office has no real authority,
and I would have to get a clarification from you, because, we are
a policy-makingbody in the city of Tallahassee, we have a manage
ToVYI, o-p
of commission of formal government, and the charter expressely
prohibits the commission from becoming involved directly into the
affairs as relates to giving orders to4employeel of the city. That
is expressely prohibited. So in that respect, you probably could
say that there is a lack of authority. But there is not a lack
of authority from the standpoint that you do tell the manager or
the auditor in whatever you want done, and of course, we
haven't had any problems with them not trying to comply with the
instructions given them. So, it would be a matter of interpretation,
of a matter of how you want to equate what authority means.
I: Some people feel encumbered by the straight la1 s placed on them
by the state pmF 5 sAK 4h a, + .
2 oro0-1y
F: As it relates to helping blacks per seA in that regard, I would, I
don't see any regulations there that do, I see-the kinds of things
that I see that come up that prohibits us from doing some things,
FB 34A
of
or the kinds z things, the laws that the state from time to time
pass. Which affects -eiy or the federal government, which affects
cities without taking into account how the city is doing financially,
live up to this obligation to .implement this thing. Okay,A say
we're going to give, let's assume that they're going to do all this
|ikE crTA
for the, for the 4A unds. But that's not a good example,
because you don't imgine-that totally. in fis. rgcard 5fer havy any ki-.
But forms that you've got to get that you've got to have a match.
That's fine to give me ( but if I don't have the quarter, I
the
can't very well get the 5, and when I put up -tks quarter to
get your )over here, I have taken that quarter from something
else that that quarter should have been doing for somebody else
that was already earmarked doiJ But because I'm going to get
( from you, I'm not going to do the other thing now, I'm going
to postpone itp and hope through some act of Providence that I
can do it otherwise. And that's what cities have been jockeying
and doing to the point for the federal dollar and for the state
dollar, to the point that they have allowed themselves to get into
a dependency bag, I guess I could call it, where you aren't in a
position now to do the things ybu needed to, that you were doing
on your own, because you have committed the three to five years
You'c V i C"
and most things that i --*.kb bout now .re not short-term
commitmdentsA So you've got the money tied up, and if your budgets
are like Tallahassee's, we operate on an anticipated budget because
we have not collected the money from the utility bills, and if
aI anC d nrrCd -to
we have a good summer, good hot,ANe use the air conditioning/ And
all this,AP good. But then the energy of re so-called, quote,
energy conservation thing that I preached heavily against, and the
FB 34A
conservation, and a lot of people would like to hang me for it,
but I've never.-an organization the size of the city of Tallahassee,
depends upon it's utility system to supply streets, recreation,
salaries, and everything else, cannot go outside and tell the
people to not use the one thing that produces the revenue and at
the same time have escalation and pay high salaries toA* employees,
and keep the economy of the community going. It's a damn impossible
thing, and anybody who thinks that that can be done is wrong. I
preached it to them, when it started at Christmas, and Christmas
before (IS we talked about "Don't burn the lights, don't
do this, and do it." What good has it done andi.we really proved
that we have an energy shortage? No. Two days after the whole
o0 effe- Cf- J /..-
thing went outA you could buy all the fuel you wanted,gas stations
1h w-rere A )
could get all the gas at the price that you wanted,4you can buy if
all now# if you can afford to pay t~iese high prices. So it was a
C"
matter of a, as far as I i=t1d see at that time, it has cost the
city, in that people now have been conditioned to do something, to
cut back, to conserve, beyond the point that they need to do simply.
because they were going to do this anyway because they don't have
the money to buy at the escalated price. So what did it do? It
drove the actual prices of a commodity higher, and it's going to
drive it higher this summer. Because we're going to have to raise
the rates to cover up the lack.of use. Are you following what I'm
saying?AF:So, who benefited? Who was the loser? Everybody. It
doesn't make sense. 4? I would admit perhaps, in some areas,
that this may have been a legitimate thing. But to us, the net
result had not been a positive one. And it's going to be a spell
before we dig out from under the effects of it.
FB 34A
I:
F:
I:
F:
I:
F:
hoi h U
On these others...
Oh, the other questions there, I'm sorry, I guess I talk too long
on some things. Outvoted by white officials. Well, now, that's
an interesting one, because that's not any, not really been true.
I have been the person, basically, who perhaps has been the deciding
factor on votes, and I have not, on things that have affected blacks,
and per se, they, my colleagues have not been negative, so I cannot
say that that has been anissue. Unfair with administrative duties.
What do you have reference to there?
I assume the question refers to....
Elected gLY/or?
Right tha yo- .....
Well, that would not be applicable to us, I don't think. Lack of
cooperation from whites. I've had excellent cooperation, so I
can't, that would be of no consequence. Lack of cooperation from
blacks. Basically, they have been cooperative. Cooperative as it
relates to, if I request from them, and go out and make a request
or
that I want some names for appointments that you would like, a. d
various other things/ they would do it,-and of course, when I go
out and solicit something, they are cooperative, but I'mAn my
first statements, I was talking about the personal pride and
ingenuity of a group of people to a prize, or to irod or to write
at .the CoII OrY or to keep me informed on what it is that they feel,or
or what they want. I don't always have that, that information.
Lack of cooperation from state officials. We're right here where
the capital is, and I have to admit that any information or anything
that we really want, we can getAwith no problem. The only lack of
here 11
cooperation might be if you were over 4 jobi4t for some, for
I(
FB 34A
the league of citiesW /rnd they- -.ABut, here again, I don't know NwheChr
7 you can consider that cooperation, they're trying to do their
jobf just like we are. So, if I'm interpreting cooperation as
meaning a sincere desire to respond to something, a difference of
opinion in cooperation, is two different things, I mean, I might
not agree with you, I might not agree with anything you stand for*
here this evening with this, but I'm cooperating to give it. So
you see. So I'm trying to figure what the definition is implying.
I: And how about black cooperation with federal officials?
flO, eoe ov4-J-[IVc sloer 4 am
F: We don't)Ahave too much problem w+ti- that. They're s4-w-as hell.
And1w\e going to consider delaying as.non-cooperation, then I'd
say ye4~, But if we, but not knowing why, and this is important too.
The blacks could say, well, say some various other things about why
I haven't done something in X number of times,, Pait of time.
You see, the first thing to learn in any situation is when to do
what. Any good kid knows when to ask his mother or his father
something he wants to do when he knows the answer's going to be
yes, and when he knows the answer's going to be no. That's a mark
of intelligence, and the same mark of intelligence needs to
prevail in any administrative positions; arrd know when to make a
request for funds, and when not to make a request for funds. That's
if you want the funds. You see. And I always have this fear ft-er,
that you never want an agency or anything to ever have to say no.
And maybe I've got a hang-up about it. They would -ask why Y)~0\
I've got a hundred percent batting average in five years. But the
point is, you've got to use the opportune moment to do some things.
They might be ever so good, but if you're going to fail in the
FB 34A
attempt toAn., it, it's a waste of your time and everybody else's
time. And you've got to assess the possibilities, and when you
Y105
throw all that data together and you come up with "sI ", then it
-1S,
better damn well .be 9aokr Because if it comes up a second time,
it's going to fail. There is something that, to look at that, to
look at out basic commission, we don't tend, if we have rejected
something, the probability of bringing it back is not going to
make it's chances of passage any better, because there's always
going to be a commissione.who's ahold of us,A 4", we handled that
last year.A I don't plan to do anything differently, and if he
Color
gets an opportunity to say that first, he's going to ee-~g the
whole spectrum of the commission, it's going to be hard to get him
on a positive note. But see, if you've got a new, fresh approach
to the situation, they've not been exposed to too many things, and
we have a record of not turning down a n in And it's probably
one of our bad points, I'd say, because some things we should have
not done. But people have come to us, social'agents and everything
with good causes. And we've done them. To give you an example of ome)T'll
(U- CKcWIIC cf Lincolhi Nei^UoihooJ Ceht-er
JijC you4something, you take the L-ake-of Napl1ehood Center that is now,Awas
ilk skool LiVC7oln SBoo I oW
the old black h i "1- riL- -sti-l-i overAWall Street, I don't
v&4iher yot,'re -amf11a1v WAJI+h
knowA/ilE ~re' t that center or not. It's been renovated now,
and it's very nice, and it's beautiful, and it serves a beautiful
purpose, But you know, that's 1000 plus the federal funds we got,
city funds. When it started off, the city was supposed to only have
invested in it, only have served as the grantor, I reckon. For
Steel I
the grant. And it was Reverend-S~-tle and Father Brooks, OS P~0 nn ----
the Brooks Center that they were going to, the school board was
FB 34A
going to let them use it, and give it to them, ,_federal
funds, and all we had to do, wasi they had to have an agency through
which these funds could be dispersed, and the city was chosen, and
we accepted that. But that's not the bag we got in. -The the
school board turned and said it couldn't do it,AiJ had {-Faio1:land
and the school board couldn't get rid of land, so they swapped the
land out the city. So what we did, is swap the equivalent land
Leon
in front of Iyan High School for that land, which was, in a sense COuld
vJie"Ie
s. be considered wrong. After getting into that bag, j- spent about.oh,
e kit or ive Vnti iooa .
800,n nn r 00,000 dollars into the center in addition to federal
funds, one way or another.A fainting, where it left off, wasn't
"- Well h &HL, you're ronnrc. i p- "t,-.
,l'..amr paintA and so, we said don't hv go i ei. then the
landscaping, you've got to do that, and then the engineer,Alhey
left half of his stuff out,.4 'had not been done, and the money
av 4
has been ,Awe've gotten ourselves in a crack now that
o- A y0out
we've spent all this moneyA jrs\we got to go through with it. Plus
the cost of the property. I don't need to tell you what five acres
of property alon q Tennessee Street between the Capital City Bank
and the bottom of the hill is worth n today's market. But those
are situations where,AI do point- out that the commission has been
For in s t-fc, c e orne d |0ercci-t
considerate of most4facets, a.t las -it's funded l00OA The
0da On neighborhood recreation centers which at this particular
an
time, could have been a real politically ;unpopular position to
take, and an austere thing,Awe spent $600,000%q a4A 'vJ +Took s that
g into it, 0o we decided to go all the way, pool, =d kit and
kaboodle. There was a b. 'i';, and he wanted to cut it, and we decided
that, no, we weren't going to cut it, we made promises and we're
going to do it.
FB 34A
And that's totally black.
I:Uno you feel that white officials treat you differently than they
do other officials that they deal with? Do you feel like they
treat you as merely a spokesman for black causes, and y-e~r-e not....
F: I don't run into that because my, becauseAmy dealings* and the
positions that I have taken on the committee, on the commission,
have not placed me in the militant or the partial category. None
of the votes, nor anythingAI have done on the commission can be
attributed to have racial tones, they haveA they have "i as a basis
that I'm concerned about what's good for the city of Tallahassee,
and what has to be done to maintain that. The things that I think
the government's basic responsibility is to maintain a healthful,
clean environment, and one that, with a high degree of tranquility,
at least where the law enforcement, health and safety, is preserved.
-C^h
Now all, many of these other things I do not feel is 0 responsibility
of the city government. There's se in me perhaps that I get
i4o
involVed in,4some social service aspects, I do not feel is directly
my responsibility. I feel that we have an obligation to facilitate,
or to aid and assist, but they are not our, not my dife-t to do
these responsibilities.
I: What services have you provided for blacks in your district that
they did not have before you took office?
F:- That probably, needs further clarification. When you say services
they did not have, are you talking about, we have to relate this
Wt e s ere, avC
to the masses, or es have to relate this toAcertain areas, like I
talked about initially, sewers, street lights, sidewalks, some other
things of this nature. NowA like the neighborhood center, the barn,
recreation center that's coming off the board now,
oard now,A things that
FB 34A
they did not have. But to relate them directly, to attribute them
percent-
100%Ato my being on the commission might not be exactly fair, I'm
only one vote on the commission, like everything else, and this is
something that, in most, in many of the questions\ it would come up
and any, with any black elected official, you've got to realize that
you're talking about either one or two votes, and it is never, unless
it's an unusual city, where that is the of votes. So you,
to take credit for the improvements solely to a community, or to
aj area, may not necessarily be true, because you've got to givej4
you've got to also take into account that, or at least feel that
of
the people that you're working for have a high degree,4sense of
moralityoda/ sense of his duties and responsibilities and obligations
to those people that he made campaign promises to. Therefore, for
me to assume that I moved things forwardA made all these improvements
for you, is not true. Any more than it's true that the mayor did
them. So, I would perhaps find it difficult to say anything other
than the fact that these things came about during the time that
I served, and I made sure that the other commissioners, I explained
it in such a manner the other commissioners could better understand
what the needs were.
I; Yeai that's mainly what we're after in this type of situation. Things
that may not have come to the attention of the commissioners...
F: Right, now, this, you see, the white commissioners are not going to
go out and try to dig up and find out what the situation is, for can
instance, I got a letter from the city manager today that was telling
me the status of the street that was supposed to have been, that
should be paved, nd the status of some homes out, they're very
nice homes, where the commonwealth went bankrupt and some of the
FB 34A
people just left4j, there and let the weeds grow up around !t, but
the people who bought houses in between these lots, and those lots
weren't being cut. Well, it just so happened that a, one lady who
knows me very well, is black, and this is an integrated neighborhood,
I mean, but, it wasn't done for blacks, it was done in-fact, I had
them go out in all the neighborhoods and look around and seethe
w5as -4qe \ie
houses that wena left that way, and see if i aw cut. And of
course, the bills would have to be sentAto the commonwealth, or
of
whoever the builderAthe developer is for it. We can't have people
living here, two house here, they've got nice lawns, and the
rattlesnakes, and moccasins are infecting the rest of the -e-s-er a r+-s or
Uninhabited places/ A ids wandering around no matter whose
neighborhood if5 i1.A/t's just hazardous. So, I would take credit
for, since I've beenthere, to better articulate what the needs
are to the other members of the commission. And of course, based
on their own sense of morality, they have always been always seen
things the way I saw them. So, I can't say that I have run into
that, I haven't had the typical kind of redneck situation that
NJ 0koi n
prevails in some areas. For an:.instance, I was helping wk with,
in fact, that's where we met, i nHIShiWhAomA Quincy that, the
president of that organization wanted me to find somebody in
District 9 over here, a black to serve on the Board of Directors.
And he also informed me at the same time that half the whites on
there said that they would resign if they got a black on it. Well,
I told him, "Now, you know, that's unfortunate. I admire your
a-ti-he- +0kc )
courage for coming over here asking me to find you, butAsame t=m~a
you are asking me to ask a friend to go over and serve where he knows
before he gets there that nobody wants him." But, I helped himA I
FB 34A
hd- 3iev gave him some names and everythingA I hope that they can become
educated. I have yet to look at a city that elected black officials
to it, in most cases, where the black official was not more sensitive
to the needs of the whole community, including whites, and in
most cases, less biased. They tend to be the less biased members
on the commission. Inherently, because there are some reasons for
that, obviously, some of them is that they understand the needs
of people a hell of a lot better because they've been the recipients
of some of the kinds of things the government has done, so they
have a better knowledge, a first hand knowledge of first of all,
what needs rectifying, second of all, hbw it can be subtly done.
I: In these specific areas, could you kip or rate how effective
yOU aVe bey particularly in, as they would affect blacks?
F: Now, we went to, the police, we had the man from the International
Association of Chiefs of Police to come downA do a study, and
implement a whole program, so our program of promotion, and program
all +4s I'S
ofAother stuff* now,Aone of these,_high level kinds of operations.A -;V
some of them likedA some of them disliked, obviously,Ayou're going
to have that any time you change some things, but promotion polic/ Utj Variott
nowb xre.
other thingsA done on a highly competitive and professional plane, and
as nothing to with race as it relates in it now. And, the chie-f
can't put in any of his pets es favorites -Ew some things anymore.
You know, all these kinds of things, that's been rectified. Streets
and roads, housing, as I mentioned earlier, housing is a problem.
We do have a Tallahassee Housing AuthorityAwe operate,Awfas it is
inadequate in that there are many, many people that we can't do our
Se hery e 4o P people
code enforcing, because we don't have any way putlfcin people
FB 34A
when we ralSe out, raise the houses. You know, you can't just go
down and take the bulldozers and push them out and say now, "Where
you going to go?" when you haven't provided anything else. Welfare,
we're not really involved in that. Employment, we haven't laid,
CLII^I+ Vo
the city so far hasn't laid off anybody, but it j@a in any position
hobody
to hire anybjro.d either. But Tallahassee, because of the kind of
economy it has, it's rate of employment, unemployment would be less
than many places. However, we do have unemployment, a higher degree
than we had because the building trades are no longer what they
i-l-
used to be, you know. They used to be, in Tallahassee,Awas building
everywhere. In fact, they-w-ee building with so much there, shat
you couldn't buy cement)if you wanted some, you couldn't buy it.
Lumber) /obody wanted to sell you anything, now they do. It's
g e o eny A a boa r of
gotten to the point now.t) t ven-+h citizens can buyAwood, and
you can get at some nails if you want. But roofing material,ol-
plywood,o'concrete, they just weren't interested in selling it to
you. (chutckle) e)R movJ, it caI J ob+\or do.
I: Parks and recreation, have there been any positive changes that you
can think'wO6- In any of these areas, is there anything that you
can point that perhaps you had an influence on?
F: Yel) i/n our recreation department, in all these areas that we have
been in, we have no, we have a total open-door policy. In all
ieaquce -tCcwt,
sense, in all parks, in all everything, and in all the "i
]e i" Keeoi t here
dnd everything else, we don't have any problemietere A o^er there
you CeCU
they.play. AndAjust take a tour in any of the parks, and you'll
see what s mean. Swimming pools is the same way, the only problem
is, we don't have many swimming pools) \JC onlv rot '-rbut we'll have
four next year. Water, sewage, and garbage, that's routine.
FB 34A
1ealoin 0TnhAd Iospital, we run Tallahassee more or less with no problem
there. Education, we really, depending on what you're saying,
whether you're talking about public information, which would be the
there you'd come, ifd
same, because, if we, ifAanything we are going to doAweLd come
in the utility bill, or it would be in a legal notice or something
like that, so we're not really in education to that &- Fire
ei eellUeq. we've o0of wie've
protection is en~.- I thinkAtfea perhaps 4sE got one of the
finest fire departments in the country, so... In fact, we go, we
go up in Georgia, and we go everywhere.
I: The local fire department?
F: Uh huh. They send for us. In fact, we were down there in oalkecr
County yesterday. Yesterday evening. One-of their sawmills and
things caught on fire down there, and the whole fire, the whole
fire protection they had was our fire department. We respond to
Panama City, we respond in Perry.
I: Kind of a long way.
F: Well, we've got a chief who is very dedicated, and we've got, IAthink 4hat
there' four cities in the country wi'ts got the same rating we've
got. So we're, we try not to get CYoWed but if we'd had
be, our
like we done, we would hkms lost 4r- rating, because there is no
6LL1 to a [Id
way we can dt.m-another two more fire stationsAthe equipment. But
right now for the area that we cover with what we've got, we're in
excellent shape. In fact, it's perhaps the fastest responding
agency we've got. If I were to pick up this phone now, there would
be a fire truck here in less than three minutes, and I would bet you.
Just aboutAin the city in five minutes from the time of the call,
there would be, the vehicle would be there. That's how well they
respond. Now, they are a group that we have never had one single
FB 34A
criticismjof by anybody at any time. It's the only agency we've
( itic Ie )
got in the city that we can say that about.A That may be bad, but
SA1A of
it's the truth. There's always complaints about the police ./ course
that's normal, I guess, in that area. So, that pretty well covers
Ii fC,(.. You asked me to rate how effective I think I have been in
this. I think)very effective in all these agencies, education,
you know, we haven't done anything in that area as such, but, all
these other areas, basically, have been something that I have been
very active l involved in.
I: Have you gotten federal funds for this, have you been inLke&ein- 1t iL
sa M federal funds?
F: Yes, the Tom Smith Water Treatment Facility, the newest addition
of some several million dollars. I was mayor at the timeA course
I had to deal with HUD in Atlanta for weeks and weeks, and in
Jacksonville, as it relates to funding for it, and the funding for
the LincolJNeighborhood Center, I was mayor too, at the time. All
the groundwork for that facility was during that period of time,
and the initial funding for the new generating plant, and' the final
funding, final construction for the new police headquarters, -o)
there are a lot of things that were involved in here that you can't
just directly take credit for, and as I said before, I think, and
(OCi~ii.'.-n- 5 a5nd A4heir
I tend to look at their___ accomplishment in the city of
TallahasseeAbased on a genuine interest on the part of the commission,
commissioners, to do what they think, in their opinion, is best
for the city of Tallahassee, and so far, we have had good commissions,
basically. We've had some that thought quite differently from me,
and I recognize this as a right, and that we weren't elected to be
rubber stamps to each other. We were elected to express opinions,
FB 34A
ideas, and the desires of the people that we served. And that
does not mean special interest,.it means, it means a sensitivity
to the needs of the public.
I: Have you been able to bring in any industry or retail stores?
F: I'm also a member of the Tallahassee Representative, and serve on
the board of the Tallahassee Area Chamber ofCommerce. The Chamber
of Commerce is involved in trying to get industry into Tallahassee
as well as doctors, and of course, we go on a blitz to recruit
doctors every year through the Chamber. Wi go on another blitz,
for instance, it was in Atlanta, I believe, or New Orleans this
year. We spend two or three days in some major city talking about
how great Tallahassee is. In other words, know your city, know
your capital, V d0o i~i1state. So, like Miami, Tampa,ASt. Petersburg,y
oawJ the larger "places where people might not really know what we're all
about, and this isApromotional campaign, not to get people to live
here, but just to, for people to know more about Tallahassee.
Brainpower, we thought one time we were going to get Sony, but
of 5sMe o t-egr--
MontgomeryA I think it was Montgomery, Alabama, gave them electrical
covvn o-+vit-'a
rates, they were preferential, and of course by'bond etvnecare- we
_ud' kditO,"v, 4cv -:"
couldn't do it) /e couldn't compete. aOus the fact, I
think they gave them property and tax reductions A they weasa'-Lt'o0-
to 00,d I011) 77 nican)
Qig -to charge them for4bAheg _~ / ve couldn't do that. So,
and besides, Tallahassee is a kind of peaceful, tranquil city that's
steeped in tradition that 4ee t want, in a large measure, certain
kinds of industry, and many people would not like to have any at
all. So, putting this all together, you have an unusual situation.
I: Have you been able to see that blacks are hired fairly in most
FB 34A
j- (ocal yoverrmeot? Nave you haJ irFlueyrmcc.
F: That is a questionable thing. I could not positively say that there
is none. I could say that every precaution has been made including
hiring. An equal opportunity person that gets $16,000 is black)
/o make sure that that is Je's presently hired,
---e -9 1WJ -
plus we have personnel directors,andA4whole personnel systemAhas
been instituted, whcih I was instrumental in doing, ~hat's what I
probably could take .a lot more credit for. But,.. ..
I; What was that one? (o
F: Personnel department. The city d-i1dnt hae- ono when dalt w sion,
jlot)Aa QdeapruYe4t, it was i-tnhto=e4 that ce the motions of
S): iwHtIEnploym.
hiring, you know, all those things. The records, files, all As>
1e e e 4ore things .
I: And now they have one that operates on a professional basis? Has
federal revenue sharing helped your district? Helped ?
F: Certainly. Oh, yes, that's why we're going to be able to vefb6 blwa
-/ 0Yo re-
bonds2 southh enter /hy we're going to pave so -4awt streets,
/hy we're going to try to improve some substandard housing, and
why we're going to be able to get rid of some of the blighted ones
that nobody's living in. Get the Mro\/e. to pay for code enforcement
to get somebody to have that, y. knoioJ.
I: Have there been any black protests, sit-ins, boycotts, drives in
your city in the last few years?
F: Oh, yes. The last ten years. Sure.
I: What were the issues?
F: In the last ten years....
I: Spet4'i black protests.
F: Well, they weren't against the city.
FB 34A
I: What were the issues?
There
F: Well, I'll have to try to think what the issues were. a were
4-ey're c8irv l 4e
issues and time of legislature. There were issues
against the Sheriff's Department, the last one, I think, was because,
was the trial for the five Quincy fellows who allegedly killed a
rocerie oUj- herc
deputy in Luke's, at Luke's wrcs -st' somewhere, and there have
been that kind of thing, there have not been issues that,they would
protest against City Hall pe~r se persDo I(( or anyf-ki vt like tI l.
I: And have these, what were the effects of these demonstrations, and
so forth? Did they effect you?
F: I don't think they've uk h ete oe Iai1i 4~is5 5 purely conjecture.
Possibly, but it would be difficult to measure it. I think they
had some positive effects, in some regards, and I think they had
some very definite negative ones 6tef some others. It would all
depend on the point of view of the individuals effected would use.
The amount of pressure to achieve the 'Ven goal is what could
make it a positive thing, but too much pressure in an area, or too
often, can negate it's effectiveness, and that's why I'm) fha fis v~hy V'r
responding to what you're saying, there was a point in time, where
every week or so there were threats of protests, either the
not
school board5-;btA hiring somebody or a policy or bussing, or, I'm
just using tSfs as examples) 0r unfair treatment, they felt that
somebody was getting in the courts. In that regard, if all those
things came about, or every week or so that you had one of these
kinds of things, their effectiveness is minimized. Unless you have
to use any kind of persuasion that deals with one's sense of
morality, the less it's attacked' heess frequently it t attacked,
the more positive the reaction to it's going to be. You know, if
FB 34A
0.lld i fiey care-
somebody came over hereAhabitually. aggravated me,A for instance,
we had two people who used to come the commission all the time ,ac
would have great ideas, soAwe'd see them walk in the door, adeeVJ ,
say, "There she is again." And she may have had the damn best
idea in the world, but nobody listened to her. They sat there,
but they didn't listen. Never get the illusion that somebody's
listening ti because they're looking at you. So, that's the
point4when you asked me the effectiveness of it, I jueSt/oecd
There.s
part of it. Bas a high degree of it turned me off. It turned
-4ey werc.
a lot of other people off. You know,Ain the streets, it was e.Inq
traffic, the point had been made, it was on television, it was
on all of the newspapers, what were you going to gain? The point
is, the whole point is that it is the freedom to express dissent
publicly.
rLd
I: Jimbt like to ask you a couple of questions about assessment of
black politics in Florida in general. What's your opinion of the
governor?
F: My opinion of the governor? He's about the nicest governor we ever
had.... : T'vI relt'on i-" his pokii'oni i o~fice. F-O.K. He's about the nicest
governor that we have ever had. He hasn't disrupted nothing, he
hasn't changed basically# nothing, he hasn't done basically nothing.
So nobody can say nothing really bad about the man, he don't drink,
he don't smoke, and his children are adopted. So, i4,^ he's a
highly religious OLnd flor, individual, and I have a lot of respect
for the governor, but he hasn't shown me such a high degree of
positive leadership. I know he did a lot in the corporate income
41s& the corporate tax situation, but what happened to it, the taxes
end4f up coming back to the consumer, like I knew it was going to
FB 34A
happen. He taxed the corporation, they simply ran the price on
who use 4t+
to the people-4s* e product.
athde bl backs?
I: How about in regards to a or policy towards R-D se?
F: The governor? Well, now, I don't know whether you can give Yirma ukho(
Io .tl more credli't ,Yur
ar d ', -cnny you can give qovyg credit. It's difficult to
assess that kind of leadership, and then when you look at the
total thing, you've got to look at which blacks,, /hat caliber of
black. Did they echo the basic philosophy of blacks in the state,
or the district or the area that they came from? What are their
duties and responsibilities? And db those duties and responsibilities...
(END OF TAPE) ENA oF 'r OGYVieFV
|
RSS
