Title: Gwendolyn Francis
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Interview with Gwendolyn Francis. Gwendolyn had indicated initially that was willing

to participate. 7sA -



F: What is your classifictaion?

G: I am 2UC.

F: What is your major.

G: Accounting.

F: Where are you from?

G: St. Petersburg.

F: Did you come here directly from St. Petersburg?

G: RIght

F: From Gibbs?

G: Yes

F: Had you thought of going anywhere else?

G: Yes, I sure did. I wanted to go to Emory and I got accepted but the only way that

I could go I would have to go to summer school.

F: The proceeding summer?

G:Yes. and I would have to pay my own tuition.

F: Just the summer?

G: Right, but I could not afford that. So, this was my second choice so I came here.

F: Did you communicate to them that problem?

G: Yes, I told them and they said that they could only help from the fall quarter

and in the summer I would have to do it on my own.

F: Why did they want you to come for that summer?

G: My SAT scores were not as high as they would like them. THey wanted something like

500-500 and I had 400 on the verbal and they wanted me to come to make up the

difference so that I would be equal with the rest of the incoming Freshman.

F: How have you been doing since you have been here?

G: Pretty good.









F: Are you getting financial aid here?

G: Yes

F: What kind?

G: A loan, grant and schlorship.

F: A loan, a grant and a scholarship?

G: Right

F: What are the different ones?

G: I have the National Defense Loan, and an EOG grant, and a Matties Heatcoat scholarship,

and a Board of Regents scholarship.

F: That is four.

G: Yes, it took all of that because I am kind of poor.

F: YOu must be loaded. How much is all of that?

G: No, not really. This year the Board of Regents was $100.00 a quarter. THe Mattie

Heathcoat was $50.00 a quarter.

F: What is that? Is that from St. Petersburg?

G: Yes, it is for people from St. Petersburg. The grant was $100.00 and the loan was

$150.00 a quarter.

F: So, was does that come to?

G: Abour $400.00 a quarter or something like that.

F: Can you get along on that?

G: I work.

F: You work also. WHere at?

G: I am working as a clerk over in the computer building with Dr. Peterson.

F: Why did you want to go to Emory?

G: I do not know. I just did. Well, really now, I wanted to get into Atlanta.

F: At any University?

G: I just wanted to get somewhere into Atlanta but my mother did not want me to go to

Clark or Spellman. I liked Emory from the catalogue and what I had read and when

I went to visit the campus I really liked it pluse the fact that I wanted to get

2









into Atlanta.

F: Why did you want to get into ATlanta?

G: Because I had a friend up there.

F: A friend, I see, and you other did not want you to.

G: No, she did not want me to go to Clark or Spellman.

F: Why not?

G: She did not feel she thought that I would get a better education at Emory or Florida

then I would at Clark plus the fact that they are more expensive.

F: Right. Was it that she did not want you to go to a black school?

G: No, it was not that. What she was really thinking about was the cost. It is a

lot more there. I think that Clark is going up to about $3500 a year and it is

not that much here. SHe wanted me to go to an all black school though. She thought

that I would make it better there but I did not.

F: How have you done academically?

G: Pretty good, I have a 2.5 overall and that is not bad.

F:. When will you be going into Upper DIvision?

G: I do not know. Because see, I need Physical Science and I am taking 121 over the

summer but they are not offering 122 in the Fall which means that I can not take

it until the Winter. I can not get into Upper Division until I take 122. I will

have to wait until Winter quarter to apply.

F: That is just a nominal thing that does not really matter.

G: I will start taking Upper Division courses in September.

F: Had you heard much about the University of Florida before you came?

G: No, I only knew two people that were here before I came.

F: They were students here?

G: RIght.

F: Had you visited here before you came?

G: Yes. I came for the basketball tournament one year.

F: When GIbbs played here?









G: Right.

FL What did you think of it?

G: I liked the campus. I did not know anything about the courses or anything like that

because I did not know anybody except these two people.

F: What was your impression of the school before you came?

G: Before I came? Well, from what I had read. I was really kind of surprised because

when I got here I found more black people then I thought I would see. I was left

with the impression that, you know, that there were only about 15 or 20. I was

surprised.

F: You really felt that there wer only about 15 or 20 on campus and you decided to

come anyway. How many students did you think were here all together?

G: About 15 to 16 thousand.

F: What kind of things had you heard about this school before you came?

G: I heard that it was a good school and I knew that it was the best state school

in Florida. I knew that it was larger then F.S.U. and A.& M. so naturally, I

figured that it would be better.

F: Why had you not considered going to F.S.U?

G: For the same reason, I did not even apply to F.S.U. because I figured that Florida

was larger and I figured that the educationwould be of a better calibre.

F: What was the main reason that you came here?

G: Because the/offered me the most money after Emory.

F: What had Emory offered you?

G: I had a loan and a grant, a scholarship. It was enough to take me through my

Freshman year without student employment. I am not sure of the exact amount.

F: It was not as much as they offered you here?

G: No, they offered me more there then they did here.

F: Yes, but it is more expensive there. Some of these schools offer big scholarships

but the tuition is $2000 a year.

G: Yes, you use it up.









F: How have things been for you since you have got here?

G: Pretty good. THe first quarter was the worse.

F: Why?

G: Because I wanted to go home.

F: You mean the first quarter of last year?

G: Yes, because I only knew about four people other then the people on you floor.

I only knew about four other people. I knew them but I mean close friends. Only

about four other black people. When %was home, I was use to being with the crowd

and in with everything. Here it seems like you are on the outside looking it when

everybody gets all excited on Saturday night about a date which we never get.

F: We will talk about that. I do not know waht to believe about that stuff. What

made you stick it out?

G: It got better. I was considering transferring to F.S.U. but it would have been

after my Freshman year.

F: Why F.S.U./

G: F.S.U. is in the same town as A.& M. and all of my friends were at A. $ M. I considered

that after the end of the year but things got better and I liked it.

F: Have things changed much?

G: Yes, they have.

F: Like what?

G: Parties and stuff to go to but the people sam more together then they were last

year. I guess that is because there are more of them.

F: Do you mean more together in their heads or socially?

G: Both, I guess it is because there are more of them.

F: Do you have adequate social things to do?

G: No.

F: What do you do?

G: If someone is not giving a party then we are lost. THat is why everybody every

week-end always calls and says that they are having a party at someone's. If









somebody is not giving a party then it is really kind of lost. I mean, you could go

to the Village Gate and things but I do not like to go and sit up on a white floor.

It bores me and there really is not anything to do if someone does not give a party.

F: What would you like to be doing?

G: I do not know.

F: What would you be doing in a place that had the things that you wanted to do?

G: Well, I do not know. I guess that I would be doing about the same thing. If

I was at A.&M., I would be going to the fraternity and sorority parties and go

out bowling and things like that with people.

F: Can not you do those things here?

G: You can not go to the fraternity and sorority parties.

F: Do you want to?

G: No, not here. We do get together and you know, go out bowling at night

and play softball on Saturdays and things like that. THe Friday and Saturday

nights are what is really bad, unless you go with Kathy to the movies on Friddy-

night.

F: Do you and Kathy go to the movies together a lot?

G: Oh yes, there is no other choice.

F: You do not date very often?

G: No, there is nobody here to date.

F: I do not understand that there are almost twice as many black guys as there are

black girls.

G: There are jsut friends, you know.

F: Explain that to me.

G: That is kind of hard. I mean like, there is nobody that I would even consider

getting serious about. You knfw, you just look at everybody as somebody that you

go out with and play with and have a lot of fun.

F: Why does that atomsphere exist rather then another?

G: I really do not know. It just started off like that. Everybody just got










together and had a good time and that was it. I do not know why.

F: How about dating guys off campus?

G: I do not even know that many off campus.

F: It seems like that has been a trend with more people dating people off campus.

G: It has. I can see that.

F: Why?

G: Well, I guess, for one thing the guys off campus they do not see us as much

as the guys on campus. You know, when you see them that much you just automa-

tically get on a friend to friend basis type of realtionship. WHere as the ones

off campus, I guess, they just come when they want to see you.

F: Is it more interesting to go with someone that you do not know as much?

G: Yes, a lot more interesting. Because a lot of the guys on campus, I mean,

you are so close with and you know so much about them and how they do other

girls then you do not want to get involved because you know that you will get

the same treatment. THat is it, you are so close to everybody and you know

everybody 's business and everybody knows your business just about. You really

do not want to get all hung-up because you figure that you will get the same

kind of treatment.

F: Are black guys dating girls off campus?

G: Yes, the majority of them are.

F: The majority of black guys are dating black girls off campus.

G: Right.

F: You think for the same reason.

6: Right

F: .What about dating white girls, black guys dating whtie girls?

G: There are a few but not many. Well, they will date them. THe majority of them

would like to date them but they do not want the word to get around that they

are. There is a small percentage that do date them and they do not care who

7









knows. They just do not care.

F: How do the black girls feel about this?

G: Well, I tell you, a/the beginning of this quarter, at the beginning of the school

year, we had a great big mess with all of the black people about that. Everybody

was getting upset with this one particular guy. He would never even be seen

wi any bJf-k people at all. He just likes to date white girls. THen he would

get in public and say that he preferred a white girl to a black girl any day.

This started a big mess in the Black Student Union. We came up with the

decision that it was his business who he dated.

F: Why would that become a big organizational thing?

G: He owuld be out on the plaza talking with a whole bunch of white people and

he would just degrade the black girl.

F: What kind of things would he say?

G: He would rather go out withhe white girl any day because they could do more

for him, you know, just basically degrading the black girl, like they are too

possesive and they want to own you. It would be all right if he would have

been talking to black people but he would get into a whole bunch of white

people and say this. Then it got to be a big thing in the organization because

they felt that he was really doing the black people nn campus an injustice.

It got to be a big mess. So, we came to the conclusion that he could date who

he wanted to date because it was his business as long as he does nmt bring us

down in public.

F: I heard that at the beginning of the year that. it was intimated that black

girls could not date white guys because there would be trouble and then black

girls started noticing that black guys were dating white girls. Did that happen?

G: Yes.

F: What actually happened?

G: Well, this is funny because it all started around me. I was dating this guy

who was member of Delta Chi Fraternity. He was a cuteK one. I had been dating

8











this guy and we were real good friends. We threw a party one night our

house.

F: You and he?

G: No, me and Kathy and Roz we gave a party and everybody was there and he came.

I invited him and the people got upset because he was the only white person there.

F: They wanted more whites to be there?

G: No, they did not want him to be there. He did not mind because he had been to

parties with us before. It was basically the new kids that were getting upset

because the old ones knew him and he had been to parties with us before. He

felt comfortable around black people. So, I did not hesitate about inviting

him. THey got upset, you know, the new core the freshmen. THey got upset

because he was there.

F: They did not want to have any connections with whites?

G: Yes, they did not want any. He stood out even more because he was the only

white. If there had been about five or six it would have been better. THe

bad part about it was that he was enjoying himself, you know, he felt at home.

Then they got upset about that, plus the fact at the beginning of the year you

have all of these new guys who want to get fresh and you tell them to run on

I do not want to be bothered with you and then they see you going out with a

white guy and they get upset that you would rather go out with him then me.

I had known him a lot longer and I did not want to be bothered with them.'

That is what really started it all.

F: So, what happened?

G: So, we decided that you could date who you wanted to date.

F: I mean what did the black guys say?

G: Well, they got real mad and they threw him out and told him to go home.

F: What did they say to him?

G: They tried to set it up like the party was almost over. We were sitting in the










living room talking and they were cleaning up. They pretended to start this

fight. It was not really a fight.

F: With each other?

G: Yes, they faked it. All of a sudden everyone got on the couch scuffling and

they just happened to fall on him. THen he got angry and he started and then

it all started and he just said well I will go home. THat is what they wanted

him to do from the first.

F: Was anything said?

E: No, they did not say a word. I knew that they had planned it because I saw them

in the bedroom talking and I knew that they were up to something.

F: How did you feel about it?

G": I felt real pissed at them. They called him and apologized later and they

apologized to me. I was very mad.

F: They straightened you mind out about that.

GY They got their minds straightened out.

F: Do most black girls resent black guys dating white girls?

G: No

F: THey do not care.

G: No, as long as you do not do it, you know, what he did, go out and degrade the

black girls.

F: Do many black girls date white guys?

G: No, not many.

F: Why is that?

G: Because the white guys do not ask the black girls out.

F: Would they go?

G: I do not know. Some of them would and then again some of them would not.

THe majority of them I do not think that they would.

F: Why?

Ot










G: They fear what the people on campus would say about them if they did.

F: How can you put up with that? Obviously, the black guys date white girls.

G: Right, but I mean you know, it is just like a double standard. The girls

can not do what the guys do. That is the way that it is and which is very

unfair to the girls.

F: Do you think that aside from the fear of what people would say that black

girls would really like to date white guys?

G: They would if the guys asked them, you know, they probably would.

F: Do a lot of the black girls feel that they do not have anythinkin common

with the black guys?

G: No, I mean you have to get to know a person.

F:r The basic difference it seems at A & M I have spoken to the fraternities and

sororities and they seem to be very strong there and they seem to be the

central part of the social life. Do you think that they ought to have black

fraternities and sororities here?

G: Should they have any?

F: Yes.

G: Well, right now they can not afford to. When you get into fraternities and

sororities, you get real exclusive. Then if you have a black fraternity that

is not going to let some black guys in then this is just going to cause a rift

between the black students and they can not afford that right now. They should

wait until there are more people here and then you could have mere then one

fraternity so no one would have to feel left out.

F: Do you feel that it would sort of be a breech of the unity?

G: Right, it would. Because naturally they are not going to want everybody in.

The people on the outside are not going to appreciate it.

F: What kinds of things would you like to exist here socially that do not?

G: WEll, I guess that some people would say that they would like more black night-

clubs, that could be one. Also, I do not know.

11











F: Why do they not have more black parties?

G: Most of the people are in the dormitories and there are only a few off campus.

Even after a while, parties t d to be like a night-club they get boring

because you are doing the same thing. You need something different.

F: Like what? I find that people more and more say that if I were at A & M or

if I was back in Tampa. What is it that you want?

G: Well now, you would have more sports activies to go to and be part of because

like the football game when you go now even though you are a Gator is does not

affect you that much.

F: There are going to be several outstanding black players.

G: Now they look forward to going because they know that Pete ag Jack will be

out there.

F: Jack?

G: Willie Jackson.

F: Oh, is that his nickname PetiJack?

G: Yes. You want to go out there and everybody even wanted to go to all of the

scritages and next year it will be better. Everybody goes to the track meets

because Ron is out there. Maybe if they had more blacks on the basketball

team then that would fulfill a part of it but now you do not really care one

way or the other.

F: Let me break this down into a couple of ways. Actually this is the first

encounter in a predominately white situation because you went all through

school and high-school in a black school. Were you apprehensive at all about

coming here?

G: A little

F: What kinds of things did you think were going to happen to you before you came?

G: Well, what I thought would happen to me did when I first got here. My first

roommate looked in and found that I was black and left, you know, things like










that I figured would happen.

F: What do you mean she left? Describe what happened.

G: Well, she was there. She had just gotten there about ten minutes before I got

there and they were still bringing her stuff in. We came up and found the room

number and went in.

F: Who is we?

G: Me and my mother and my grandmother and my brother. We went in and she said

well I am Patty Street and I am your roommate. I said I am Gwendolyn. I turned

to say something to my mother and she looked at her brother and he said I do

not know how you got her. Right after that her mother and father left and they

went down stairs. She and her brother stayed. I finished bringing my stuff

in and then I left to go to the Union to get the registration and all of that.

When I came back all of her stuff was gone, I saw my RA and she said that

Patty said that she was real sorry but her mother would not want her to stay

with a black girl so she would have to move.

F: She never moved in?

G: No

F: I thought that the rules said that you had to be in there a week.

G: No, she left the first day.

F: She never lived with you?

G: NO

F: Where do you live?

G: Then, I was in Weaver.

F: There is a rule that you have to stay with your assigned roommate a week.

G: She did not stay at all. I had the room to myself for almost two weeks.

F: Then who moved in?

G: A girl from West Palm Beach.

F: A black girl?

G: No, a white girl.


j










F: Did you get along?

G: Yes, she was real nice and we got along just fine.

F: Anything else?

G: I figured that if you are the only black person with a lot of white people

that there will be a lot of stares. THat really amuses me. THings like that

happen on the bus. If everything is full and a white person comes on they

will not sit down next to you.

F: Did that happen?

G: Yes, that happened to me. An old man from the way to Tampa, he stood up all

the way from Tampa to Gainesville.

F: Can you think of a case on campus?

G: It is kind of subtle on campus. You can catch it every now and then if you are

really looking for it.

F: Do you look for it?

G: Yes, you do.

F: Why do you look for it?

G: Because you know that it is coming eventually. Like in my Humanities class

we read the book Black Rage and we got to talking about it after we read the

book. The teacher asked4if you thought that it would eventually get to the

place that white and black would intermarry and it would not be any big thing?

A few of the people said no, that would be the worse thing that could possibly

happen. One girl said and she looked like sin anyway.

F: What does that mean that she looked like sin?

G: She was not very good looking she looked pretty bad by white standards. She

said that it has just been instilled in me that they should have what they need

and all but I just could not marry one. I told her that one of them would not

wnat to marry her anyway.

F: You said that in class?

G: Yes.










F: What was the reaction at that point?

G: They laughed.

F: Did she?

G: No. Ever since then every time, that I look at her I think that deep down in

her heart she is probably a racist more then likely. From the way that she

is talking, I was not exactly-looking for it but after she said it, you know,

it got me to thinking and every time I see her that is exac tly what I think

of her. She had on a Delta Chi sweatshirt too and that is insulting to Delta

Chi.

F: What kind of subtle things happen to you?

G: Well, it still happens when you get on the bus. Everybody will always walk

passed you until all of the seats are filled. THey like to do this. So, when

Roz and I get on the bus we sit across from each other and let the bus fill up

and sometimes they will stand up rather then sit next to you. It will kind

of tickle you too.

F: Guys or girls?

G: Both, mostly girls, guys will on a n average do not seem to be quite as bad.

F: Better with white guys.

G: Yes, I guess so.

F: Do you have any idea why that may be?

G: They just seem to be more open, you know, and do not have so many hang-ups

as the girls.

F: Can you think-of anything else?

G: I do not know. THere are a lot of little things that I can not really think

of. I can not think of any.

F: Does it bother you?

G: No, it tickles me.

F: What about relationship with your professors?

G: They are good just like anybody else except I have one teacher that likes black

15









people and I got her because I knew that she liked black people and I could

stand somebody that likes me. You know, she likes black students and on the

average she will if your work is nto really A or B work she will give you a

B because you are black and that is just why I got her.

F: You do not mind that?

G: No

F: You do not feel that that is somewhat patronizing?

G: Well, it is in a way but I am not going to complain about my grade.

F: Do other black students know about her?

G: No, not really. There are only two people that have had her. Roz had her and

she told me.

F: Are you keeping her a secret?

G: No, but if it gets too obvious and too many people take her then no one is

going to benefit.

F: What course is it.

B: Humanities

F: You really think that she gives you grades that you do not deserve?

G: YEs, and I have a speech teacher that does that too. Right now, he is kind of

afraid because he had a black guy last quarter who was really super militant

and he gave him a real hard time of it. He called him a racism and he told him

that he was never going to let any more black people come into his class. He

just got the man all upset. Now, he trying not to upset me and get me to

thinking the same way that this guy thinks and you know, it kind of helps you

over the hump a little when you really do not deserve it. You might deserve a

B minus and he gives you a B plus and things like this.

F: Who is this person that you are talking about?

G: Ernest Johnson.

F: I have heard that but I did not know if that was the same one or not.

G: Yes, that is him. He does not want to get me to thinking the same way that

16









Ernest does.

F: Do you?

G: No, I do not think the same way that Ernest does. I think that he is all right.

Ernest was basically down on him because he was a Presbyterian minister and

he is saying that the church has done more to him as a black person then any

other organization. HE was really getting down on him because he was a

minister. He is an all right guy to me. He might just be doing it so that

I wilnot think hard of him but he seems all right to me.

F: When I asked you about your relationship with professors the only thing that

you have talked about are the ones that are actually prejudiced in a positive

way. How about most of them?

G: Most of them are neutral. They treat you like any other student.

F: So, you think that in general being black is actually a help?

G: Yes, right now it is.

F: Are there any negative kinds of incidents?

G: I have never had any. I am sure there/re though.

F: How do students react |o you in class?

G: Well, everybody wants to be your friend because you are the only black person

in the class and they do not want you to feel left out. So, everybody

flocks to you to be your friend and that is what basically happens.

F: They flock to you?

G: If you go in and you are the first person there everybody has to come up and

speak to you which they do not do to the other kids but now when they see you

on the street they will not speak. It is different in class.

F: Why is that?

G: I do not know.

F: I mean it is in public as far as in front of other people.

G: The girls in the dormitory wer4like that. THey would speak as long as they

were on the floor but as soon as they would get out into the street with their

17










friends then no one would know you and they would look right pass you. I

make them speak to me.

F: How do yo do that?

G:' I asked them how are you doing and then they say h, hi Gwen. She is walking

past and she is accidently going to look the other way and go by you and not

speak to you. I like to make people squirm.

F: Have you had any contact with the administrators?

G: No

F: Just Roy?

G: Yes

F: Do you get along well with him?

G: No, I do not.

F: Why is that?

G: Roy has changed since he has been here. HE is like all of the other administrators

in an ivory tower and he can not communicate with us or he does not try.

F: Why do you think that?

G: Because when he first got here, everything was for the people. Everything that

he wanted to do was for the people. He use to always tell us and that was when

he was on the fourth floor and just had this little nook, always would tell us

that my office is your office and if you ever want to talk to me just come down

and talk. Now, he does not want you in his office unless there is some pressing

business. Operation Outreach had their temporary quarters there and he put

them out. He has just changed. HE acts like he can not communicate with the

black students in his little ivory tower. What he is really thinking about

now is getting more black people in but in the meantime the black people that

are here everybody is turning against.

F: Do you feel that the way that you feel about him is pretty typical?

G: Yes, I do.

F: You think that it is changing?

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G: Yes

F: Do you think that he use to be in greater favor?

G: Yes, then he is now.

F: Are you active in Black Student Union?

G: No, semi-active.

F: What is that?

G: I do not run and volunteer to do everything but if they ask me t+o something

then I do it.

F: Do you go to all the meetings?

G: Yes unless I have to study. I said that I am never going to do anything

but talk.

F: Why is that?

G: Well, if I know that they have some pressing business or something that is

very improtant then I will go. If I know that they are going to sit around

and BS which they do do a lot of times and everybody argues and nobody gets

anything done then I do not want to go because I get sick of arguing back

and forth between people without really accomplishing anything.

F: What major projects do they have now?

G: I do not know whatever happened to Black Week or whether it is going to be or

not. IT was the last big thing in Operation Outreach and getting the guys out

of jail.

F: Has it been for a while that there are no projects now?

G: Nothing really big, Black Week was about the only thing and I do not know what

has happened to that. THere is nothing really going.

F: Whom do you consider to be the major leaders?

G: Of the BSU?

F: Of black students in general.

G: Well, I think about the best leader that we have would have to be Mitch Dashin.










F: Do you think that he has the respect of most of the people?

G: Yes

F: Anybody else?

G: Well, I guess that a few people would consider Roz and me but I do not.

F: Why is that?

G: I live with her and I know her. She is spacey. I think that some people do

look on her as one of the leaders.

F: Is she pretty active?

G: Yes

F: What is she actively doing?

G: Nothing now but when things are going she is our Minister of Communication

and she would get the message to people about the meetings and send out the

announcements. The clerical work really and keeps it going pretty good and

keeps the books up. So, she is pretty active, pretty spacey too.

F: Can you think of anybody else that might be considered a leader?

G: I think that some people would consider Steve Baker a leader but I do not.

F: Why?

G: To me it is nothing but a front and he wants to put on the front that he

is real militant and he is big and bad and black and it is nothing but a

front. If somebody walked up behind him and said boo he would be long

gone.

F: Why do you say that?

G: It is just the impression that he gives. When they had a meeting of the

MInistry of Defense and he was sitting there and he said that we should get

Army boots.

F: This is Steve?

G: Ho, Fred said it first and Steve agreed. Fred Redding. We should get Army

boots and fatigues so that when they see us coming they can be scared. I

mean, you know, so what when they see you coming some of them would still
20










stand there and beat you half to death. WHen Mitch spoke at the rally out there,

the three of them had to go up there and stand with Mitch. Steve still has

not told me today what the purpose of that was.

F: Did you ask him?

G: I asked him what they were suppose to be doing by standing up there. He

said h, Gwen go on and I said ait a minute what are you doing. THey were

just standing there. It tickledrme because I do not know what they were

suppose to be proving like they are big and black or what. They want to be

militant and have everybody say that they look like Rap Brown but they are not.

F: Why do you think that they want to be that way?

g; I guess that they think that is the way that they will get attention. It is

the thing today. It is vogue to be black, big and militant and hate everybody.

F: What if you are not big then what do you do?

G: Just not be big. I think that they look up to Mitch. Mitch has the respect

of a lot of people but he does not go around doing the kind of things that

they do. If one of them had been up there talking, he would not have stood

up there with his arms folded trying to look bad. HE would have stood back

there with us and listened. THey kind of look up to him and I think that

they want to be like him but they are going about it in the wrong way.

F: Mitch does hold a lot of respect from a lot of people black and white.

He allows that. If he did not want them there thy would not of doneit.

G: See, this is it, he goes along with it.

F: THe leaders are responsible for what happens.

G: He will not care if tey say anything then he will go along with it.

F: Nevertheless there are a lot of people that resent a lot of things that

Mitch Dashin does. THey think that he is phony and does not act super-

black all of thh time.

G: He has a hot mouth and he can really hurt you with his mouth.

F: In fact, some of these students that I talk to talk about the fact that so many









super militants are the very ones that they feel are the hyporcrits.

G: Yes

F: The people that are great black patriots making speeches that in private----

G: They are just the opposite.

F: Do you have any insights into that?

G: I do not know why they do it but it has definitley been known to happen.

They use to say talk black and sleep white that use to be the thing.

F: Do you think that there ought to be more black students here?

G: Yes.

F: Why are there not?

G: Because they do not make the grades on the Placement to come and some of them

that do do not want to come. THey are better off in small black schools.

You prefer to go to an all black school.

F; If you had it to do over again would you go somewhere else?

G: I would go to Emory if they would accept me and if they did not then I would

come back here. It has its advantages because at a black school it is

hard to be black. Do you know what I mean? You are surrounded by everyone

that is black and it does not make you really stand out, you know.

F: You are not as conscious as having to feel certain ways.

G: Right, I think that I would come back.

F: Would you encourage other students to come here?

G: No, I do not.

F: Why is that? How are we going to get more black students here if you tell

them not to come?

G: I do not know. Roy always gets on to me about that.

F: I do not know who is right but somebody has got to be wrong. THere is faulty

logic involved. Every black student automatically says that there ought to

be more black students here. IF you ask them if they would tell them to come

then they say no. WHat is it going to be?









G: I do not know. THey should come but I mean, you know, I would rather for things

to be better before they came and not have to be subjected to all of this.

For things to be more ideal before they came but I guess that they can not get

more ideal until they come.

F: Why do you think that it is more important to have black students here?

G: Well, because there just are not enough. Like they say, my mama and my

daddy pay taxes and the black people are helping to pay for it so then some of

them ought to be here to get an education. They should not all have to go to

A & M because they get a better education here.

F: Do you think that they ought to have different standards to come here?

G: Yes

F: Why?

G: They should take into consideration the fact that all of this time that more

then likely the high-schools were all black and basically inferior to the

other ones and they can not preform the same way on the placements and they

should take that under consideration.

F: It is true certainly that people from black schools do not have an equal

change because of the inferior schools that we have had. Nevertheless, that

senior placement test is extremely predictive. In other words, if you do well

on it then you will probably do well in school and if you did not do well then

you likely will not do well in school.

G: I do not think so.

F: Well, it is true. Would it do any good to let blacks in and then have them to

flunk out?

G: No, not really. It would make it worse.

F: Yes, I think so too. What are your suggestions?

G: Maybe you should take something under consideration other then the tests.

F: What?

G: I can not say high-school grades because they are kind of easy to get. I can

23









not say preformance on the SAT because it is basically the same thing as the

senior placement. Everything should not depent on the senior placement.

THere should be something else to consider. I guess that it would have to be

a counselor's recommendation from the high-school.

F: Were you a good student in high-school?

G: Yes, pretty good.

F: WHat would you consider being a good student?

G: Well, you were considered a good student if you graduated in the upper ten

per cent of your class.

F: You did that?

G: Yes, I graduated number one.

F: From Gibbs, you were the Valdectorian from GIbbs?

G: Yes

F: I had no idea. What did you make on the senior placement-test?

G: 350 something.

F: Did people make higher then you on the senior placement tests?

G: Yes.

F: What was your average?

G: About a 3.8 or something like that.

F: Out of a class of how many?

G: About 250 maybe not that many, about 250.

F: Do you think that there ought to be more black teachers?

G: Here? Yes, I think that the black students would be more important.

F: A lot of people feel that it is very important to have black teachers. Why

do you think that they feel that way?

G: I guess that the black teachers would be able to influence the students outlooks.

When you run into a student, you know, whose parents have put this rasict

attitude into their heads, the teacher might stand a better chance of setting

them right. I still think that the students are more important.








F: WHat about administrators?

G: That is even more important because they have the power.

F: What kinds of things would you like to see the administrators do?

G: WEll, they could fight for more black students.

F: Take the time counteracting what you are doing.

G: Something like what Roy has done now with some of the black students that

would not have automatically been accepted here to come in the summer on a

trial basis and make it then and then let them go on and get more financial

aid for them.

F: Cna you think of any other changes that you would like to see here?

G: Not other then more black students. THings need to be changed?

F: Like what?

G: KX A lot of things like when they build a Student Activities Center they should

not name it the Stephen O'Connell Center they should name it the H. Rap Brown

Center. You know, recognition of the black people.

F: Whom are the buildings named after here?

G: most of them after the people who have taught here.

F: Right

G: It is not fair.

F: What is not fair.

G: BEcause nobody but white people have taught here.

F: Well, are the buildings at A & M named after white people?

G: No

F: I do not think that is a function of discrimination. Of course, the separate

things was a rasice thing initially and that is why you had separate schools

because blacks could not go to the white universities. THe policy is to name

the buildings after people on the campus that is different then if they are

naming them after leaders, political leaders.

G: That is true.




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