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Ernest Johnson



F: what are you majoring in--biology or chemistry?

S: Well, I'm not sure yet--I'm in zoology now. You don't have to have
a BS in it to get in the other school--so I might just get the min.
requirements at this school. But it will be in zoology if I do get
a degree.

F: You have been here since 1967? Why did you come here?
A
S: That is a good question-- I decided on the spur of the moment. I grad.
from a predominately white high school--Ocala Hisgk High School in
Ocala, with it being being close and pretty good in the science depth.
I decided to come on over.

F: Where else did you consider going?

S: I hadn't really considered too mush--at least I had always known that
I would have gone, but I didn't worry too much about where.
Lie this wasn't my only choice--I had sent in applications at FSU AND
f/~f t/-K/& M, and I was accepted at all of them, but since this was the
closest, I came here.

F: What did you think when you got the questionnaire?

S: we get questionnaires all the time, so I really didn't think too much
about it.

F: because there a lot of students who are sick and tired of filing them out
and I can understand that...so about how many questionnaires have you
gotten this yr.?

S: 5

F: More enh

S:' ot as lenghty-yours was easier to fill out--some of them ask for comments
and you don't feel like writing comments, yours you can check something,
it's easier--but i don't mind filling them out
R:

F: Sometimes there is a problem in that one of the responses that I put
down is not one that you feel like answering--did you encounter any
questions like that.

S: not really--but i remember some of the spots that you are talking about

F; have youspoken to any of the other students about the questionnaire

:Well, i have told a lot of others that i have received it. Like it
is a universal thin. among black students and they do plan on answering,
them.
v4










page 2


F: like i said, alot of students a sick and tired of answering them--and
although I sent doe to every black--at least people who say they
are blackpome just don't put it down;I don't know why really--


S; I didn't put it on mine put they finally put it down for me.

F: Why didn't you put it down?

: Well, I was kind of like arrogant, you know--like I wanted to say
why was it important--like I put human one time--it doesn't really
bother mebecause I am proud of being blackbut I just wanted to hang th e
computer up


F: That's why I asked you--some people don't do it like for serious reason s
others just to fool around.

S: WEll, i was doing it just to make them wonder. Like they sent me a little
thing that said pleas fill out race and the last one I got they had
it right--they put Negro; I put black; they put Negro again.

F: before you came here, you hadn't given it much thgt. that it was just
a spur of the moment thing--but what about since you have been here
in general--what are your impressions

S: Well, if I had to do it over again i wouldn't come to Fla..l definely would
not/ THe UF is a g d college--but for a black student it is not
really ahe best--the social life is nil; it is r tjelly a godd univ
for a black--it is just a univ.; the values that thefivi has are white val ues
and if you just adapt forget that you are blackqbnd just think that
you are a student itiitreallj good for you.......but you don't have
any outlets, no way to respond, no power Really I would like to
give the univ back to the adm--if I weren't a senior this far in the game.
Like i know that I will probably grad. lut I would leave in my senior
yr., I defineaItely would.

S: It's not overt things--it's usually covert--like you run into an
instructor who has institioalized racism, he smiles will you but
you know tha he doesn't give a damn about you, a lot of the personnel
on campus, being a student, you don't have any ila have any way of
forming any wholesome relationships --you just feel like you are here
Like for instance I have a back friend that --but it is not conductive
to black students here--not at all. Like i've done pretty good here--
like right now I am a residetn advisor at a dorm. ...I work mostly
with white people. I"m ever in Murphee--l'm over 2 sects. I fd. more
purpose since I have been a resident adv., because now I get a chance
to talk to people with different attitudes and I feel a part of it
because you know three is soemthing to do

F: I want to ask you a question-- I one of my questionnaires back with
an address in Murphee-from a girl--is Murphee co-ed?


S: No













F: She receives her mail in Murphee.

S: I doubt that

F: One of things that I am doing--a lot of the things that yousaid a re
pretty common--I know that a lot of them are overt but can you
think of anything that is obvious that can be changed

S: Like this yr. they started a lot of black studies, this is a start
but I think like--like it is going to taake a lot of time and money
like it took us the longes time to get a BSU office in the Union
Have a blace to setup your office and keep your books. There still
needs to be a lot of improvements and we are going to need money to
xpxa~xi;.do it. take for instance black week, this would have
hepled a lot because we would have been able to have black students
and celebrities, and as long as the adm. acts this way and as long
as the black studetns here keep calling the school raxist, we aren't going
to get any thing done. Like the adm. needs to show more concern
we need more--get--because we don't have any black profs. and that
is rediculuous and black adm. stuff like that Those are the first
-s% i that are going to have to be pade--like I would fedl more of
the establishment knowing that we had quite a few more black instructors
I get tired of going to white insturctors for everything. Like I have
black lit. class this quarter, I have a white guy trying to teach it,
we might spend a whole period talking about an adj. and I feel that
black people are far far adv of sentence structure--we are interested
inthe message--he a~e oisf the message wepeft imp.

F: Will you say that agian.

S: Like if you read Soul on Ice, a white person would be worried about
'a incident' white the black people would be interested in getting
the message and they would not be so concerned with where the guy was
born or things like that but in what Ie was saying or doing 6or the
black cause, the white people sit around and talk about something
insignficent at least to black people. To be in an integrated
class like that, the teacher has a problem I admit because he ha
people inthere who are striving for 1 tow different objectives--
like black people want to get one thing out of the course and white
people want to bet another it hangs BJ them up, but I really think'
that black people would do a lot better with black studies because
he wouldn't have tocb I two things--because he is teaching back mat.
and that is his thing--a white teacher has to walk down the middle of
oof the road but a blakc teacher if he is a revolutionary he could
teach what he sees.. I really don't thnik that the Univ is making any
active effort to get any blakc teachers here. becasue right now ever
think is by word of mouth and they need to stop going around trying
get black Ph.D.'s from Harvard because we have a lot of white instructors
here who don't' have ph.D"S from Harvard. Why do they have to be Ph.d's
anytime you talk to an adm. hesay that you just canta iny qualified
instru but the UF financiallyTafl6rd to get these black phd^.becasue
other colleges can pay them more. Wjy can't they get black grad.
students with a BS to teach these C courss-e..









p..4


S: Because I went thru the Univ. college and I had some pretty rinky-dinky
grad teachers. Bethum-Cookman kCollege, F A& M we could bring
C in the students by the 1000's, like i have a friend who
grad. from F A& M who is a library asst. at the lib. why can't she
monitor one of these c'courses, A black student has to have a Master's
degree or better.to be an assistant

F: You have to have a Master's to be an instructors'

S: But I'm saying grad stud. --like they don't send out recruiters to brinff
them here to teach those courses. It is obvious nothing is being done
we don't have any. Like a lot of people who grad form A & M don't
have work.

F: What are they doing?

S: They are teaching the high schools or they are working out of their
fields because they can't get work...

F: They should encourage them to come here and got to grad school and teach

S: Well, that all depens ofi the univ, i have some friends in grad school in
agric. they made them take some pre-grad courses before they would admit
ghem and so i'm really not qualified to say about that but they
didn't feel that they needed them. You know make them-rake wej e ,O
courses --the agric. dept. is t(he only dept. that has a sign; no. of
black grad. students

f; I think that the adm, would say that they would like that b ut that
thefblack studeZa don't make GRE'tS high enough or something like that.


S: I am against quite a few of the standarized tests because it is not -J
real good indication of intelligence It might be able to pre-
dict how good you would do at a white univ. like 12th grade
placement tests aren't a good indication of intell., but it is a good
indication of how you would do at a white univ.

F: A good indication of how you would do in a society.....

S: Definately not--ye- can grad. from white univ. but put him in a ghetto
and hkxRa might starve to death or get his brains shot out because he f
doesn't know how to talk to a brother. You are trying to make black
people somethinglthey aren't by making them adhere to these standards..
you know that a lot of them are obviously slanted because I have taken
a lot of these tests--the 12th gr. place., for ex.. you were to try
to put yourself in a regular white am post. you would really do good
--like your math that is unoverial but like Eng. 9/10 phe words you
see you would never use in talking to another black person

F: I don't think that most white people would use them in talking to
white people

S: Those testsarent really good indicate ors of how well you can do in socig j











S; I am definitely against those kind of tests when it comes to measuring /
black intell.


F: So You are saying that a lot of the black BS holders who don't do 0
well on the GRES would do well a s hi grad. students.


S: right right, i thinkjthat a lot of the blacks who don't do well on the
12th grd place. tests would do well as studetns at this univ.

F:. One of the arguments against that is that these black studetns
don't need any more failing experiences than they have had and people
say that they would do well--statitically shown.


S: TheVe is an argument to tht like if you had black profs. counsellors to 5
talk to theee4sstudents blike you cant just put a black dtuedent in
a predominately y whtie school nd expect him to do well. Socialization
means a lot--like if you don't have a date, and you hav e to study 19
wks, out of the quarter, you aren't going to do well.. but give them
black counselors and friends, and I guarantee you that theyxaxen*ixgai
would make Ist ratestudents


F: you can forget about that

S; YOu cant just put him an a nice dorm room and put his books around him
and give him a scholarship and expect ih'iro do well. He might have
a bad sit. at home. My sit. at home hQ up tight and my academical
works suffers at times, I'm worried ab8ut the home front a lot, and
if you don't have somebody to talk to you don't do as well acad. you
have a black counselor to show the importance of making good grades
you fel a minioriy otherwise you aren't going to do as well even if they
do let you in. T is is extremely important --blacks not being able
to stay at white univ.

F: You said something black students aren't doing any good by just
calling the univ. racist.

S: Tehy aren't helping the univ to keept black studetns--like we have
Roy Mitchell recruiting black studetns and they are more or less
saying that you come we will give you so much money o they picture
the univ as being progressive and when ever something comesup they
blame the univ--and say thatit is racist. Because I know that a quite
a few studetns haveasked me --they say that they have heard this and
that--i wouldn't go--I have told them the true facts--that if they don'
want tot stay up all might and study and the don't want to face white
persons don't come here. If i had it to do all amhex over agian i
wouldn't come. Get more money-- more black instructors--if there
were more black instructors I would try to take some of te courses.













S: I have had some rinky-dinky course and I don't think that my ed. here
has really enlightmd me thatmuch.

F: How are you doing


S; MY upper div. av. is about 2.8, and my lower div. av. was about 2.5

F; the reaosn that I asked was that I have had studetns that
say they are doing ok and I asked them waht is ok and they sz
about a 1.4, I didn't think that was you though.

S: I'v e had trouble with some courses and I've done good in others..
q I've gotten a few D's...but acadmeically I don't find the univ of
fla. that bad. it's not that hard. if you're willing to study
like i 've gooten d's when i don't think that i should have gotten
them....like i took a sociology course here and it was the worse
course that i have taken here because-you are in socioloy, right

F; Sociology of ed.

S: soc, is not conducive to black studetns--like he taught a lot of
stat like why someone would goin this frat. is really wasn't int-
he skipped the 3 p. on black families by frazer --I think that
Dr. Larson is really a crummy teacher you know.. and he was just
crummy i really tried and Te just wasn't conductive and at all and
I couldn't talk to him at All

F: WHat courses have you enjoyed

S: humanties course math courses ....Axax i haven't got as much out
of the Afro=am. courses as i think that i could have.. axa they
are all white instructiors... like i am in a course ASC 450 --a seni r
seminar--you do research in anything that you are interested in
they split the course Dr. Conroy took all the white students and
Sam took all the black studetns aAd we are getting a lot more

out of it ixxixxKsxa

F: I've talked to Sam and it is really odd that the univ has to reach out
and count him as one of the instru.

S: they were goining out and trying to hire almost anybotu then.








p .. 7


F: People think that the adm, are stupid and they aren't

S; Right they just don't have thjer hearts in the right places.. YOu say
eomethingk real bad about the univ, and O"comnell will make a ppeak
saying that things aren't bad run around the problem., all the
black studetns have aproblem--militant or not--and the adm, is not
doing any good saying they aren't--like Roy Mitchell had a hard time
getting enough money to run his office and for a long time he
didn'thave automony over his own office and this type things and
like next yr. they plan on brigning in quite a few black studetns
on a triiA basis.......i'm not totally pessimtic
you can't just sit bake and say that thainga are being done--they'll
get better--if studetns weren't raising hell about it nothing( would
bw done and HEW weren't raising hell about it noting would be done
The univ steps as far as it has to step it doesn t volunteer any-
thing

F; Do you think that in the long rum the studetns--whita nd black do things
that are determinental to their causes?

S: I agree with that--I think that black s alienate people with their
lang. I have been to causes wi;h which were good butthat they
leaders were osticizing people with their lang. --i know that i do --
we get so hot about what we are talking abt t.

F: I you are ever think in the long term--siJ se --saying what will get
you what you want--people say that you are a tom--giving in.
Now I don't think that is fair sometimes, there is a diff.
bet. being intell. and a tom.

S: That is the black intellectual's problem--being toonntelligent about it.

F: Sometimes it is a cop-out.

S: Sometimes I feel that black intelligent people who don't wear
Arfo's and dasheche(?) are doing more for the Negro cause that
the others. You can be educated and doing a lot for the cause bbd bK belled a tom
because the masses of blacks aren't educated and they might think your methti
are not as effective as theirs, but a lot of the time your methods ae
more effective.
So blac k poeple are'nt that stable among themselves when you come down to it.
I've been called a tom but deep down I think that I am doing good
so that it doesn't bother me. Saying that "I am more militiant'than
you doesn't do an ood.

F: I read in ffg* 17 magazine that one would rather have a procedsed
exterior and be black inside than the opposite--this is paraphrasing--
and be Afro on the outside and processed on the inside.

S: they have got a cool term for that--(muttered)

F: DID they make that up t ~? -- -- 74-












S: I don't think that it local--I read it in Malchom X().

F: I've Aread a lot of black literature and I've never seen it.

S: When I read Malchom it wasn't any big thinU, it just said something
about being orieole(?), I think that i had been blowngl up..and that
why it is new to a lot of people. I think that it is a pretty good
term.


F: sometimes a phrase like that says a whole lot quickly and Ythat
whythey are I facts rather than going thru this whole rigamole.

S" See like a term like that you could talk to bn uneducated person and
hee could identity with it about people copping out and you can
relate to them in real concrete terms it is a lot more effective.

F: You mentioned dating--I have trouble with that from my studetns--white
of black/--they have troubles at home or tkhe because some girl is
not particualary attractive and she has been down for 7 wks. because
college life is a lot more 1 than classes--everyone knows that. There
is a tendency to forget zbout that with black students. T"ey go
by grade point av. in high school and senior placement scored and say
thay you should do pretty well and they forget about so many other I
things......What about dating here.

SL Well dating here --you really couldn't call it dating, I mean you have
problems among black males and felmales, most of the black univ. students
date people off campus, They don't have dood interrelationships
between blzcks on campus--I mean that they don't date that Imuch
Where usually a girl with will go with a gup off=campus--

F: local people?

S: yes, local people --and a guy will go with a girl off-campus--eitherr
jr. coll. or in some instances high school. TeyVe is a lot
of interracial dating but no interracial couples. BtXxxaxlaakk--
like people going together but there is a lot of interracial
dating, like movies, dinner, this sort of thin. But a black
perosn really has to go from the univ. to find social happiness.
Like I haven't ever been to a dance on campus and there are a lot
of black grps. playing. I don't go to too many movies on campus--
i really don't use too many facilities on campus. I go with a roommate
to bowl a feew games--but most of the timd even to talk to somebody
I go --to be around people my age, even to get a haircut--I go to
black people..

F: Why is that?


S: I don't feel that they too good a job.


F: It is hard to tell what is a cop-out ....












S: LIKe blakcs are real personal abt. their hair and I wouldn't want
a white person to cut my hair.because I have black barbers to do
not such a good job--because it is a part of personalityif a guy
cuts too much or if he doesn't cut it like I want it--like
I am funny about different black barbers cutting my hair --like I
don't' go to different guys, like I get one and I expalin how I
want it and if he does it good I go to him time after time...that
is the general concensus--like they have a certain person whom they
want and they don't go to anybody especially when it comes to a
part of you--like if a guy cuts too much off you really feel bad be=
cause it is a part of you. and I wouldn't ned if a white barber
were qualified to cut my hair...I 'm funny abt. that...i would feel
more safe about a black barber


F; Lets say you went to a white barber and he did a real good job.

S: I don't think that I would like him--I'm just like that

F: I feel that way too--if somebody cuts my hair and it takes months to
grow back--Some people dig shoes and you hair is like ....
But you siid something--for the most part black girls don't date
black guys on this campus, friends kind of think, why is that

S: T here are many auggestions--no real answers-- Historically you
found the black female always the one who was moee educated than
the black males, and I can't help but feel that since the black
male is getting more educated there is completion bewteen the black
male and female and she thinks that if she can get to the UF she
has proben that she is just a smart or smarter than you are, think like
black girls on campus set their standards too high and they are
a little too critical of black guys on campus and this type thiimg
whereas if she dates a guy offcampus who isn't as intelligent as
she is--mainly because that they aren't in the same situation. YM
They aren't competing every day for grades, you kno w grade -point
average.. So like it is a long story --it's not that the guy on
campus aren't cool am or anything They see them everyday go
to class with them everyday, it is more a competition like thin g.

F: Whick way do you think that the competition is going=-do you think
the girls feel threatened b because the guys are getting educated.
or do you think the guys--like white people--like to date a girl that
acts sort of studpi so that they can feel sp superior.
Do you think that the black guys feel threatened by the gaysi girls?

S: I don't' think so--because the girls have always been more educated/
I think that in the reverse the girls really feel threatened.

F: Because of the change

S: Because black families have been headed by women for a long time
And see--the black male has always been in a bad bad position--
like he has always been less educated but he was expected to be the
man, head of the household. Now that the black is trying to
assume his prpper role he Hs running into a Bot of problems with
the black female. And we ever needed the black female==we need them









p 10


S: we need them now especially for moral support. Because their is a lot
of psychology concerned with the blac k male and society--he really
catches hell you know We need the black female more than ever now
that opportunities arre getting better to give us a lot of moral
support.l don't think that blakc women have realized that, people as
a whole are just beginning to make it. THey are thing to make it--
they aren't thinking about the social order--like men are supposed
tobe head of the household a man is L ppposed to be the head of
his family this type of thingg. The black female ;is trying to
make it just as hard or harder as the black male they forgotten about
a lot of moral support like the man will have to eventually assume
a bulk of the responsibility of the race in the future. I Think
that a lot of the black women forget this--like they are trying to
get real educated so --blakc women who are going own to get a Master's
etc-- and they aern't thinking that zhey aren't really happy-- they
aren't trying to help their men to get ahead--and they are going to have
trouble finding a husband it is going to run black people into
a lot of hang=ups,especailly the blac k girls. Like right now the
women liberation thing, like a lot of blac k women are caught up
in that--I think that is one of the worst things in the world.
How can think of woman liberation when we don't even have race liberation

F: YOu don't think that one can do both.

S: I don't' think that a woman can faxhatkxximixjX xpatxxazexmelaxa put
that before race....

F: YOure saying that possibly both but not according to priorities.

S; I really don't think that she can do both right now. She always been
liberated in the black setting. She has always been the main force
in the family, and most of the time the only breadwinner, I don't
think that she can start talk about being liberated...black people
really need to start aith the basics Woman Liberation is forcing
to the black woman she should be trying to think in terms of race--
especailly the men of her race and help them assume the proper ;role
in society.

F: You xa mentioned that their is a fair amt. of inter-racial dating--
you talk about a lack of cohensiveness among blakc girls and guys
on this campus--does that cause any problems?

S: WELL, black guys had a lot of trouble not really trouble but a lot
of commetns formthed black girls about dating white girls but it
goes back to the thing one guy had a meeting-- he got up and said
you might not have heard this commetn--if kh strawberry jam is
easier to get than blackberry jam, then he was going to get straw-
berry jam. I think that summarizes it pretty good. Blakc girls
you ask them f r. date and they have a million things to do and a
lot of white pepethey have heard the myth and like you get hung up
around this place afer axwakit awhile, the black guy doesn't care
whether he is being exploited or not/ So like black girls don't under-
stand or they don't want to understand, but it happens, I think
that it is more black boy and white girls than black girls and white
guys.










p 11


F; I have heard that --moxa talking to black girls students-- that they
have been threatened by blakc guys if they are caught with a white
guy they will really be in trouble

S. I disagree with that==l personally wouldn't do anythinkg--but I have
noticed that a lot of black guy are like that. It goes back
historically--like thw white man could be with the wh black girls
but the blakc man couldn't be with the white woamn. SO why
not pu ours in the home and we could go out and have some fun. I don't
agreewholeheartly with it but that is rational behind it. T ey aren't
proving that much--just becasue a black man couldn't exploit'a white
woamn that is not getting you any power-- it is not ;ge tting you
pol6ticall power or anything like that because a little thrill that
you get isn't going to make you fedl any better .. I am not
wholeheartedly for itbecause I don't think that black beop;e have
time t9 exploit anybody they really need to build a solid
foundation,

F: I haerd a laege amt. of resentment that the black girls aren't getting
treated squarely


S: I can see that--but I am a black male on campus and I know the channel
that you have to go thru to take out a lot of these black girls and
it goes back to the same thing that I told youj they think that
they are better than you are and yoy can't just do the things that
atypical guy would do--you have to be super. I used to
sympathize with them more but I had a girl off campus and it didn't
matter but now I can really see the side fo the black guys. It is
a lot easier to date a white girla and they don't follow up a lot
of the trivizl things that a black girls does IT is a more related
thing she is being with you --she has passed a Bot of the trivial
things that you would have to go thru with a black girls.

F: Has there ever been any trouble over.........

S: NOt to my knowledge.....I think there was some trouble before I got
here in '67 but now it is accepted. Usually you have to avoid
it--because you have a lot ow white girls trying to get to you.
White guys really get up tight when you tell them that--they really do.
IF you went with every white girl that smiled at you or called you
you wouldn't have time to do anything else. You might want to talk
to another black studknt--Lucus Bond-- he is doing a term paper on
interracial dating here. He feels strong about that.
I think that he was more about that I was becuase because I don't'
rely on getting a date on campus. MOst of black guys and girls are in
onthe weekends mainly because thy don't have dates.








p 12



S; It tells and I don't think t at white colleges take that into Icon-
sideration, because there are back guys and girls doesn't Ra ax
necessarily mHan xak% mena that they are going to get tAghs together
9 time s out of 90 they wouldn't


F: LET's say that you call a girla dn she gives you the whole rap about
about having too much to do and then she goes out with somebody in
the commontty say a guy who is not a smart as you, say a guy
who dropped out in the 9th grade 6and is driving a truck, it
seems that would be even more off a put=down,


S: it is.....you are incompetiition withthe guys in the commonunity even
if they are drop-outs--if they have a car now that is something that
they have over a guy on campus-- no. 1 there are no i;ti1xa%
aK;; entertainment on campus and a girl will differently not 5
go out with you if you are just going to walk over to the Union
and she has a another g uy who can take her to a soul nightclub.
5 or 6 miles away so ymx he wouldn't have to be as cool or not even
as smart, to put you down.
She doesn't want to walk down to the Union and this is the extent
of where you can take hers THere are very few black studetns on
campus who have cars. That might have a lot to do with the communitity
dating-the black girls and guys have access to a car and the happenings
like my girl offcampus can tell me what is happening or where she
is going this weekend. Like the girl on campus all she
can tell you is the movie or bowling or shoot pool, amixsexitxkimx


F: What kind of places do black students ddte off campus

S: You can go to real funky places--Village Gate, Pop's, there are
rea;;u mp wjp;esp,e I;aces tp gp

F: Do you find hostility in the comm.

S: Used to be but not ooow I think that the comm. is slowly fidning
out that we are very much for them. There wer only a handful and
they wouldn't associate in the comm.. as much. Right now the
blakc studetns have a lot of friends and wb formed some real good tie s
withthe black studetns atlkante Fe. The black students before
I came here they had trouble even going down on 5th Ave.
You might run into problems if you bothered a guy's girl.

F: THat would happen anywhere else. What about on campus are there things
that black studetns would llke to do that just don't exist?
S: I would but a black place where you could have a pot of black entertain-
ment--I know the Union dances-but what about every third wk, a band
Like if I heard that the Fabulous Soul were coming, I would go.
So why not every 3rd wk have a black band at the Rat.I'm not
saying bend over backwards to have soemthing black every wk, but
have a regular schedule It would make you feel a part of things.
We have trouble even getting black people here for frolics and
bhat sort of thin}. Like I waited all last yr. and this yr. for
them to really have something good.


C.1









p 13


S; WHat about partying with white people?

S: MOst-- a lot of the cases the whites out no. the blacks-- usually our
parties --some of white people are reculant about coming--we have
quite a few paeties..

FP Where do you have them.


S:M On campus we have them in the dorms--and that is Ynot Yconductive
to --so of a black studetns lives off=campus and wants to gibe
a party--and the funny thing is that after this quarter is almost
over, participant of black studerns on campus has improved .
There is no entertainment, nothing to do, everybody goes around ad
asks where is the party this weekend, where is everybody goinb.
L.ke blacks go out of town quite a bit onthed weekends for
entertainment. They go to black colleges where they can bet
good grps--like the Temptations. UAKMi a bunch of us get together
and go

F; What if a white grp on this campus invited all the whix black to
a party

S: Most blac ks would go--have I have been to a lot of parties at
white houses. Not frat.--I wouldn't go unless I know that about
50-60 blacks were going because I just wouldn't have any fun.

F: I wouldn't go to a party where I didn't know anyone regardless of
white or black because I wouldn't have anyone to talk to.
Do you think that if all back studetns were XXXXX invited

S: Theye would go

F; I think that certain white people would like to have something f
like that but they worry that blac ks will react 'oh, what ar yc4
doing, doing us a favor?'

S: It's been said but that is just a warning by black people not to do that
It's not saying that we are not appreCiative--it's just that we
don't want tokens. but like when a Negro gets a position he may
say that it is hokenistic but that doesn't mea that he isn't glad
that thisjposition isn't open. You can call Roy Mitchell
tokenisic but I am glad that we do have one, because one is better than
none but I don't get satisfied --we want more






PAGE: ONE SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: ---Questionaire, well what did you think about it in general ?

J: Uh, I think some of the...some of the questions that were on it...really...

uh...couldn't uh...weren't uh...written so that I could make a real good

e---evaluation.

F: You mean because, in other words, I'd ask you to like them---list them or

something like that---

J: Yes, I have, like, like when I said, when you asked me, "Did I plan to

continue on at the University of Florida?" I said that, uh, I wasn't sure,

because, I mean I couldn't...neither one of those questions, uh, were...

F: Yeah, I think I see what you're...in other words, like, because I ask for

specific answers, none of the answers really fit exactly what you wanted

to do. O.K. fine. That's one reason I want to have this interview, so you

can say things that weren't on the questionnaire. You know, because it's

true, in other words, you'd have to have a hundred responses for each

question, Say, "Do you feel this, this, this, or---" you know, you know,

obviously, in a questionnaire that would be impossible. So...what kind of

things would you have added to the questionnaire, that you wanted to talk

about, in other words, what kind of questions would you have liked to seen

that you could respond to ?

J: Hhh---

F: Hmm ?

J: Uh, I don't know.

F: What about the questions that were there, what kind of things would you liked

to have said that because of the limitations of the questionnaire ?


J: Now what are you trying---can I ask you a question ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Sure, please.

J: What are you trying to do with the question, now what do you want---

F: Well I think, first of all, that a lot of people have been talking a lot

about...say problems of black students on this campus, you know, and the

administration is able to say that, "Well really we don't know." You

know ? Well a lot of people say that, well Larry Jordan says it, or

Mitch Dasher says it, but how do we know that that is the way most people

feel, you know, and I think that's gone too far.

J: What did you...what did you say agaon ?

F: Well, in other words, it's too easy for, let's say the administration,

or the authorities, one or the other, are able to say the only---rather

than, let's say, certain people speaking for all the black people on this

campus, they say we only hear from some of them, so how do we know the way

most black people really feel, and it's too easy for them to discard a few

people, so what I'm trying to do is get the way most black people feel, to

see, in other words, it's not so easy to say if most black people feel they're

being treated unfairly...that's different than three or four people, you

know, always the same names, saying...like they can say those people are

always complaining, but if 140 black students say they've had problems in

this class, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire. Do you see ? So

it's a different...I want to reach most of the people, all of the people

I can to try to find out what people feel, rather than just a couple of

people, and in all groups it will always be...there're certain leaders,

but I want to get to everybody, you know, see what the problems are. Why

did you come here Jimmie...University of Florida ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: Uh, well I graduated from uh, an integrated school, so...

F: Did you ? Where did you go ?

J: Dr. Fletcher...Senior...

F: Oh Dr. Fletcher in Jacksonville. Yes, I'm originally from Jacksonville

also.

J: So I figured I'd keep on going. -I mean, since...uh...we have the opportunity

to try to go ahead to some of the better schools, I just decided, you know,

to keep going instead of...Like, some of the students that uh...graduated,

some of the Negro students that graduated with me, went to all of them like

Florida A.&M....

F: Um huh.

J: And uh...I just couldn't see myself retreating all the way back. I mean,

I was going to an all Negro school, and then I transferred to Fletcher, so...

F: Did you get along better at Fletcher ? Do you think you got a better

education at Fletcher ?

J: I enjoyed it, yes.

F: Um huh.

J: I think I...I think the teachers were pretty good.

F: What percentage of black students are at Fletcher now ?

J: Uh...I don't know right now, but they're a...they're a minority, pretty---

F: Yeah. When did you graduate ?

J: '68'.

F: So, what are you, a sophomore or a junior now ?

J: Junior.

F: Junior. I see. Well, is the University of Florida what you pretty much

expected it to be ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHEN1KMAN






J: I don't know. I didn't really think about what it would be like when I

came, I mean, what the racial situation would be.

F: Um huh. But in general, in other words, see this isn't something where

you have to check with everything, like, you can tell me whatever you want

to say, in other words, I don't know, what you expected it to be, I mean,

you know, you said you wanted to come because you thought you could get a

better education. And have you been pretty satisfied with what's been

happening here, for the most part. Not only black/white, I'm talking

about education in general. What's your major ?

J: Uh, I'm in Journalism right now, but I don't think I'm going to stay in it.

F: Why is that ?

J: It's kind of, uh, I'm just not the type of person to do all the little

things that you have to do to report, and all that kind of stuff.

F: Yeah. That's what I hear, more people in Journalism say that uh, you know,

there's a whole bunch of Mickey Mouse kinds of things---

J: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

F: ---out of paper, and writing short little things. What do you think you'll

go into ?

J: Uh, I'm not sure, but I might go into Education. I'm not sure.

F: Um huh. Do you want to teach do you think ?

J: Uh, maybe. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what I want to do yet. Well...well...

I think the school is pretty good. I'like'it. I find it all right I guess,

other than the racial situation.

F: Do...what do you think about the racial situation, I mean...

J: Uh...

F: Go ahead.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: The Negros on this campus are, uh, kind of like invisible people or

something, you know, you know, uh, you're just there. I mean, we've been

accepted to the school, but not socially I don't think. But I'm just

talking in general, but not, uh, all the people, there're different people,

like you have people that seem to be uh, better towards Negros, you have people

that seem to be uh, people that...uh...you're just not there, you know, they,

they don't have any kind of emotion...

F: Um huh.

J: ...about the situation, and I think you just, you know, you just, you just

not there. They don't even...they don't want to have anything to do with

the situation at all, and then there are people who will speak to you, people

who are nice enough to speak to you. And then, there're people that uh...that

will go out of their way to be friendly to you, and...although they're a

minority. You---

F: Now, I know certain black people that resent that, and you know, in other

words, I think certain white people want to make sure that the black people

feel that they're accepted, and then certain black people say, "Well don't do

that to me just because I'm black." you know ? Have you heard that before ?

You know, where some white people will go out of their way, and some black

people will sort of resent that. Say, "Well don't be friendly to me just

because I'm black," You know ? "Be:friendly to me because I'm a person."

Do you know people that sort of feel that way ? That the white people are

friendlier...friendly for some, you know, wrong reasons, or something like

that. They're after something, or what do some people say,"They're salving

their conscience." you know, making themselves feel better.

J: Yeah.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: What kind of thing, you know what I'm talking about...

J: Yes, I do.

F: Which probably is true to a degree, u fortunately, but it creates the dilemma

of, "Well what should you do?", if you, if these people want to be friendly,

then a lot of people say, "But", you know, "Don't do that either." Sort of

causes the problem, a lot of people don't know what to do.

J: Um huh.

F: What about, can you think of some specific things, where you think people

have been unfriendly to you ?

J: Unfriendly ? Of course. I don't knoq, let me think... How do you mean ?

do you mean saying something to me ?

F: Well, in other words, you can answer that however you want, you know, and

I think it was good you categorized it, You say, "Some people don't do

anything, and some people act negatively, and some just don't even see you."

J: Well, people, heh, uh, I mean, you may .ook towards them sometime, you may

turn your head, and make some kind of face...

F: Um huh.

J: Or something like that.

F: Um huh. Where does that happen ?

J: Umh, around campus, and some different places.all over.

F: Um huh. Have people actually.done negative things to you ?

J: Uh...I haven't concentrated on that stuff too much, so I can't... You mean...

how do you mean negative ?

F: Well, when you said---have people actually---rather than just ignoring

you, have people actually said crummy things to you, or teachers, whatever ?

J: The teachers ? Never, well not teachers. There was one teacher snatched

a sheet of paper out of my hand as I waiswalking out of class...

6






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






F: Why is that ?

J: I don't know.

F: Nevr asked ?

J: Huh ?

F: Never asked ?

J: I started to say something, but I decided not to.

F: You walked out of class with a piece of paper ?

J: Yes. I was handing my paper in.

F: Why ?

J: I mean, I've known people to uh, to jerk things slightly out of your hand,

but not the way he jerked it out of my hand.

F: Um huh.

J: As hard as he could...like that ?

F: Do you think that had anything to do with your being black ?

J: Yeah.

F: Better, I mean, what give you, in other words, some, a lot of students

around here, black and white, have professors that act lousy to them, you

know, professors are mean, or this and that. So, I mean, you may be 100%/

right, but what I'm saying is, did other things happen that would make

you feel that ? Just that one incident ?

J: I didn't do anything, I was just in class. I remember once, I asked a

ques...I mean I was trying to answer a question...

F: Um huh.

J: ...a question, uh, he just, you know, kind of...after I tried to answer

the question, he just kind of bowed his, boe---bowe---bowed his head, and

uh, asked the next student, some other student a question, and, I mean, he

didn't even take time to...take time to try uh, discuss what I said ,..

7





SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: ...or let me know whether what I said was correct or not.

F: Um huh.

J: And...

F: Can you think of any other incidents, where you had that kind of relationship

with teachers ? You've been here two years right ?

J: Not at Florida, I transferred.

F: From where ?

J: Junior college...Santa Fe.

F: Oh, you went to Santa Fe first ?

J: Yeah.

F: Oh, I see. How did you like it there ?

J: It was relatively all right. I...well...it's the same situation, you know,

most of the people just uh, I mean, actually have nothing to do with you.

F: Umh...

J: I mean, there're some people who were friendly, and some people you just don't

like naturally.

F: Where do you live?

J: Uh, 117 N.W. 15th St.

F: Oh, you live off campus

J: Yeah.

F: What is that in Sggg---cooperative living place over there ?

J: Yeah.

F: Yeah, I used to live down the street over there, that's why I know about it.

What about, see we were talking about teachers, what about students ?

J: I'm try---

F: As far as the way they've acted to you.

J: You've got all kinds.

8






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN



F: What ?

J: You've got all kinds...just like I says.

F: Um huh. Do you uh...do you socialize with white students, pretty much ?

J: Yes, if they socialize with me, I mean if they're, I mean anybody that

treats me all right I treat them all right.

F: Um huh. What kind of things do you do with white students ? What kind of

things do you do ?

J: Anything, uh play sports with them, play football, like with the guys that

stay where I stay at. Uh, lately I haven't been do---we haven't been doing

too much together. I generally go out there punt it. One on this side of

the...I don't know, what's the name of this building over here, uh...

F: Matherly ?

J: Yeah, Matherly. We go out there and play touch football...

F: Yeah.

J: And...uh...over there, we've played chess together, and uh...all kinds of

things, I guess.

F: Do people have parties over there ?

J: Uh, sometimes they have parties.

F: Do you date much here ?

J: Not a whole lot.

F: Why is that ?

J: Well, I don't have a car for one thing, mostly---

F: Yeah, that gets in the way doesn't it ?

J: Yes, and most of the colored girls stay...out...and out...and outside the

town.

F: Um huh,

J: And it's kind of hard, to...uh...get around.

F: You're talking about the black girls that are students here, or black stu---

9






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: ---black girls in the community ?

J: The ones that are students here, and at Santa Fe. They're about the only

ones I know.

F: Have you ever dated white girls ? .... Do many of your friends date white

girls ?

J: I don't...I don't know that many people, I mean, I know...there's three,

there's three other uh, Negro...uh, boys that live where I live at, and...

F: Um huh.

J: Uh, we don't, I mean, I just, we speak, and I don't uh, we don't really

get together too much, I mean, I kind of feel that, you know, I don't know,

there's all kind of barriers, you know...

F: Like what ?

J: ...between people. I don't know, I'm just, I don't know........I don't know,

some people just...are different socially, I mean, they seem to prefer

different people, certain people...

F: Um huh.

J: I mean, it's not me, 'cause I associate with any, just about anybody that

will associate with me.

F: I think I know what you mean, but let's go into that a little bit. What

do you mean, people prefer to be with different people ?

J: I kind of feel that...that I'm just not one of the, that group, their

group, you know. I don't think that I fit in just right, 'cause I'm kind

of a different person...you know.

F: Are you a member of the Black Student Union ?

J: Not yet, I just came over here.

F: Umh...this your first quarter here ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: Yeah.

F: Oh, I didn't know that. Are you planning on being a member ?

J: Yeah, I was planning on going...I guess I plan on going to the meeting, uh,

Thursday night.

F: Um huh. You---there you'll probably have an opportunity to meet, you know,

get in more black students, you know, than living over there. What about

the administration, have you had much contact with the administrators over

here ?

J: Umh...only on, I don't have-----most of them are all right. They treat

you pretty good.

F: Yeah, there don't---I just had a couple of questions that I wanted to

remember to ask you. That's why I just wanted to look at the...but for the

most part...you've gotten along pretty well with the people in the

administration ?

J: That's right.

F: What about, uh, how are you doing in school...academically ?

J: Uh, I think I'm doing all right.

F: Did you do well at Santa Fe ?

J: Yeah. I didn't make straight 'As', or...

F: Well, very few people make straight 'As', so you...Have you been having

trouble here ?

J: Well, my reading habits, I mean my studying habits aren't as good as they

should be...over here.

F: Again, I'm not sure most people's are. I have a bunch of students who

just don't seem to be studying a whole lot. What kind of things would you

do to improve your study habits ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: Hmm...the only thing I can think of, is just make up my mind, and start

studying.

F: What do you do with most of your time ?

J: Umh...there's not a whole lot I can do...around here.

F: Well, what would you like to be doing ?

J: I listen to music. Hum ?

F: What kind of music do you like ?

J: All kinds ---all kinds, except I generally listen to 'Soul', and, you know,

I listen to Dionne Warwick, and...

F: Um huh.

J: ...and, uh, thinks like that.

F: This is where you live...usually ? When you said that there are not a

whole lot of things you could do around here, well, what would you like to

be doing, that you don't feel you can, because you're here ? Did you

understand ---?

J: Well, I'd like to get to know more girls, take them, you know, be able to

take girls out, more girls out...

F: Um huh.

J: And...I'd like to have some places to go.

F: Like where ? A lot of students complain there's just not a whole lot to

do in this town, you know. Where did you live, in Jacksonville Beach ?

J: Atlantic Beach---

F: Uh huh, but that's not a very big place. What did you do there ?

J: Not much.

F: You know, I mean, there's probably as much, maybe more to do here than

there is in Atlantic Beach.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: Yeah. Heh. Well most of the places are, you know, I mean, most of the

social events are white...

F: Here ? Well do you feel that you can't go to those ?

J: No, it's not that you can't go, it's that, uh, I mean you won't be, you

won't really be accepted. I mean, the people around there aren't hostile

towards you or anything, but it's just...you can't really get into it.

You can't be a part of it really.

F: What kind of things would you like to go, that if you did feel accepted

you'd go to ?

J: I'd like to be invited to some of the parties around here.

F: Would you ? If you were invited to, let's say a fraternity house for a

party, would you go ?

J: Yes.

F: Yeah. Do you think most black students would go ? I know that's hard

for you to say, it's just an opinion, you know.

J: Yeah. If they thought they were going to be accepted, I think they would,

I mean, you know, just as, just another person, instead of as...well even

if they was accepted as a Negro, I guess...

F: Um huh.

J: ...I mean...But most of them probably wouldn't want to go, because they

would feel that, at first, that they were, you know---

F: Yeah, but why would they be invited if they weren't going to be accepted ?

J: Well see, one person can invite you, and the rest of the people---

F: I see.

J: ---like I was invited to something, uh, some kindo6f, you know, by one of

the students, and uh, I didn't, I didn't...the reason I didn't go wasn't






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: because...uh...well it was somewhat because...uh...I mean I figured, you know,

everybody didn't know that I was going to be coming, you know, only this guy

probably.

F: Um huh. What kind of thing was it ?

J: It was some kind of religious meeting, some kind of religious meeting, but

it was at a fraternity house, or something like that.

F: Um huh. But what about if, let's say, a fraternity, for instance, let's say

invited all the black students on this campus to a party, do you think most

people would like to go ? In other words so it wouldn't be an individual,

there where the fraternity as a whole invited people over,..

J: Um huh.

F: ...you would go, and you think most of the people would go ?

J: Yes. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. Not if the fraternity

invited them.

F: Um huh. What kind of things do you think the university...could sponsor

certain kinds of things...that would, you know, allow people to come

together like that ?

J: I don't know how they would do it...because uh...if they just sponsored

something it would automatically all be white. The students would just

come, and---

F: Um huh. Well wh---

J: If they, they would have to figure out some way, kind of way to let the

uh...Afro students know that uh...that they, you know, could come and be a

part of it.

F: If you were...let's say, you know, they set up a program 'Queen for a Day'

or something, if you could be like, you know, have all the power in here






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: ...for a day, however long it would take you, what kind of things would you

organize, you know, because there are problems you know, I mean, you're say-

ing that, "well if the university did something, the white students would

come automatically." Well, how would you arrange it...if you had, you know,

the power to do it ?

J: Hmm...o.k. They coud...they could uh...Well, you mean some kind of social

thing ?

F: Yeah, o.k.

J: Like a party or something ?

F: Um huh.

J: They can invite...if they invited both the Negro, uh, like singing groups

or something...

F: Um huh.

J: Invited white singing groups too...mixed up, and then Negro students would

have...would come, and the white students would come.

F: Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I think there's a uh, if you go in, let's

say a restraunt that's predominantly black, and there's a juke box in there,

the music is, you know usually pretty different...But do you like, dig,

like, other kinds of groups besides, let's say, 'Soul' and stuff too ?

J: Yes.

F: What other groups do you like ?

J: I like the uh... 'Classics Four', 'The Young Rascals', and well lots of more,

like uh, like, I mean I'm just not...and then thought, like my brother---

F: Oh, you have a brother at school here ?

J: Not at here, at Santa Fe.

F: Um huh.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: I mean, really since uh, like 'The Fifth Demension', it's kind of hard to

tell. They aren't really 'Soul', but just uh, like I like now. They

aren't, you know, really singing 'Soul', you know, but...

F: Um huh. They're black.

J: Yes, I know. And...

F: Then you would know, yeah, I think you're right, that you wouldn't know,

just listening to what they're, they're not singing 'Typical Soul Music'.

All right.

J: I'm kind of...I like a little of everything...in music.

F: Um huh. Yeah, that's what...oh, you're no through yet.

J: I don't know, sometime I like to listen to, particularly, I like to listen

to that Dionne Warwick, and stuff like that, you know.

F: Um huh. No, I think she's great. She's one of my favorites. I mean,

she's really good.

J: ---I---I listen to her, so you get tired of anything...

F: Yeah. right. So o.k., you'd have a party, and you'd have let's say, black

group sing, and then let's say a white group. What else could you do, to

sort of make it easier for black people and white people to feel more

comfortable ?

J: Hmm...how do you mean ?

F: Well, I, I think that, you know, you said that uh, "Even if they had a

function, a social function, that, you know, black students might not

feel that they were accepted," you know, now let's say, we're playing this

game, that you're, like, deciding everything, so what kind of things could

we do to make a situation where black students would feel more accepted. I

think it was a good idea to have, let's say, black music and white music,






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SIIENKMAN





F: ...you know, and...combination. What other kinds of things, you know, to

bring people together ?

J: I don't know...there's hardly anything, I don't think there's anything

you---thht can, that you can do, to bring them together...actually...

F: Um huh.

J: There's certain, there's certain, like if you have a group like that, there're

going to be certain people that are just going to get together, you know,

and---

F: Yeah.

J: ---have fun, and there's going to be certain people that just not, you know,

just like---you know, like they're going to...like certain white people are

going to stick together---

F: Yeah, but that's true at any party, you know, there're cliques, and people

do congregate---

J: Yeah, some of this stuff...uh, is uh, like...things aren't perfect within

the Negro race., you know.

F: Sure.

J: Like...some of these things just aren't going to...some people are just going

to be, you know...but...uh, but it's for different reasons, uh like---

F: But what...I think thtt, that's a really good incite, when you say, uh,

let's say, not all black students get along together, well what...and you

say there are reasons for that. What kind of reasons do you see separating

black students from each other on this campus ?

J: Uh...well, I'm not sure, but my, my idea is on it...like...it could be that

some people are just...I don't know, some people just don't like, just

plain 61' don't like---

F: Black students ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: ---don't like other people. I mean, you know, people just doxi't...uh...

certain people just don't appeal to them...

F: Um huh.

J: And, like that.

F: Black or white, they just like their own per---

J: That's right. There're white people that don't like other ]people, and---

F: Sure.

J: They just don't appeal to them, and they just won't...

F: Um huh.

J: And then, then there can be social barriers to some people, I mean, you

know, they may think that they're, you know, have a little- bit more going

than you or something like that there, and they don't want to be bothered

with you, something like that...

F: Can you think of anything specifically that would sort of'...sieparate black

students on this campus from each other ?

J: Just like I said, just now, that's about one of the best,..

F: Um huh.

J: You know---

F: Well what about---

J: Just sort of a social, uh, you know, everybody is trying to rea ch some

kind of goal or something, you know, it generally...if you just don't, I

don't know, some people just don't fit in with other people...

F: Yeah, that's always true I think. What about politically, you think certain

students are more radical than others, and certain black students put down

certain students for not being militant enough or something like that ?

You ever come in contact with anything like that ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: Kind of....uh...kind of, yeah.

F: Um huh.

J: I don't think...well, I guess they would. They probably would.

F: How do you see yourself, politically, you know, on a continuum, do you

think you're very satisfied with the way things are, or do you think you're

militant, or radical, how would you sort of position yourself ?

J: I think I'm interchangeable.

F: Pardon me ?

J: I'm interchangeable. It all depends on the situation.

F: Um huh.

J: I can be militant, towards certain people, I mean---

F: What kind of things---

J: ---if I don't like the attitude I will...uh...I will feel militant towards

them, but they---if I think they're all right...I know that there are some

white people that, you know, who are just...try to...uh...they're just

friendly, you know, because you're Negro, and that kind of thing. I kind

of look into that stuff to a degree. I know there're some people who...I

can tell that when people are sincere...most of the times, pretty, pretty

good. And...

F: Um huh.

J: I look into that kind of stuff, and I try to be objective about things.

I try to...uh...judge people according to, you know, the way they al---really

treat me, and so forth. I feel militant, and all that kind of stuff, but

I don't, I don't condemn everybody.

F: Do you think there are people that do...sort of condemn everybody that way,

let's say, because they're white ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN


J: Umm...I'm sure, I'm sure there probably are some people...

F: Why do you think they do that ?

J: I'm not sure. I...well...I'm kind of sure...

F: Look---but---those are really...it's just opinions, I mean...that's...I want

to find out what you feel about that, and what your idea is for what these

other people feel. Go ahead.

J: Umm...Well, I guess th--they feel that all white people are just innately

bad. They just feel like...I mean, it's kind of hard when you come into

contact with certain people, like I have the same trouble myself. Sometimes

I retreat, I retreat like that, because, I mean, you can...one person is

like this here, you know, and then you meet another person, that's the

extreme of that...

F: Um huh.

J: One person is good, and the other one is just the opposite. I don't know,

you just..I don't know, it's easier for you to uh, to believe that, you know,

everybody is the opposite of that, than to, it's kind of hard to uh,..

F: Well when you got the questionaire...what did you think ?

J: I thought it was just something, something that just, uh, just another

something that really...maybe wouldn't do too. wmuh goad.

F: Um huh. Why did you fill'it out ?

J: Because I'm interested in...uh...because I'm...I think about things a lot

of times.

F: Um huh.

J: Uh...I think about social things a lot of times, and I'm interested in...

I was interested in the questions, and I wanted to answer them, you know.

F: Do you think that there will be people who won't fill them out ?

J: That wouldn't ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Yeah.

J: Yeah, I figure, I at least figure there are a few people that wouldn't, that

wouldn't immediately fill it out. They would just leave it to be around or

something...

F: Why is that ?

J: Because they probably felt kind of the way I felt. I mean, like, you know,

it really isn't going to do any good. It's not going to change the---change

people. As long as you...I mean, it's...it's really a big problem, like

all...I don't know, it's really going to---it'll really take something...to

change all these people's attitudes.

F: How do you think we can ?

J: Uh...the best way would probably be to start in high school. Start teaching

the chil---the kids different. Like they've got Black History, they're put-

ting Black History in college, maybe they should...what they should do is

integrate the Black History program in high school I think.

F: Um huh.

J: Instead of having, you know, showing Negros, uh, American History, and what

all the white people did they should....

RR-II-NN-GG

F: Excuse me. O.K. go ahead.

J: They should try to totally integrate the, uh, this is what I think you

know, they should totally try to integrate the uh, the Black History, uh,

Programs, so that, I mean, not just put, uh, something like George Washington

Carver once in awhile, or something about Eli Whitney every once in awhile...

F: Um huh.

J: But really totally integrate the, uh, Black History Program so that the

Negro students will have something to identify with, and white students will

21






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






J: have something to identify with, and also the white students will be able

to respect Negros, uh, for what they've done, uh, in this country, and they

might...as the Negros have been able to respect the whites for what they've

done.

F: What about in all of your grades ? You said...

J: Yes, also, I mean, any...well, I don't know exactly how they teach it, and...

F: Um huh.

J: ...I, I can't say how they could do it.

F: Before you went to Duncan Fletcher, where did you go ?

J: I went to, uh, Douglas Anderson.

F: Where is that in Jacksonville ?

J: It's in South Jacksonville.

F: About where ? Oh, is that over by Phillips Highway ?

J: Yeah. Yeah, it's on the other side of Phillips Highway. Uh, on the East,

East of Phillips Highway.

F: Right, but not too much East, it's just...

J: Not too much East.

F: Is that what they made the junior college.

J: Yes.

F: You went from Atlantic Beach to Douglas Anderson ?

J: Yes.

F: By bus. That's very interesting, as a---now all of a sudden they don't

want to bus people.

J: Huh ?

F: Now all of a sudden people can't be bussed. How far is that about ?

J: About...20 miles I guess.

F: Each way ?

22






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: Yeah, from the beach.

F: How long would it---did it take you ?

J: Hmm...at least an hour.

F: Each way ?

J: I---well not---I don't know whether it would take an hour. Probably take,

I don't know, 45 minutes or something---an hour, something like that.

F: Um huh. Can you think of any other changes that could be brought about to

...I think those are both excellent ideas about the history thing. How did

you get along at Fletcher, as a black student ?

J: I don't know, I met some nice people, pretty nice people, not that many, not

a whole lot of people. I just met a few nice people.

F: Um huh.

J: Real nice people.

F: Did you feel you were treated better there than you are here ?

J: At the university ?

F: Um huh. Yo---

J: Uh, yes. I enjoyed it there.

F: Why ? What kind of differences were there ?

J: I don't know, but in high school it was...I guess in college the people

are, I don't know, they're really way out, way out; but the people in high

school are just, I guess they feel closer together or something.

F: What do you mean, "Way out" ? I'm not familiar with what you're...

J: They're in the clouds, I mean, th---people walk with their...their, you

know, their head in the air, looking down at the ground, something like

that. They're not there---

F: You think the high school people communicate better, are closer together ?

All right, I see.

23






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN


J: I got to know some people therethat I'd like to see again...that type of

thing.

F: Um huh.

J: I felt...more of a part of the school.

F: At Fletcher ? D---wer---yo---uh...did you participate in a lot of

extra-carriculars at school ?

J: No I was just there for this year, and I was working also...

F: Um huh.

J: Trying to...at night I was working as a busboy, and I just didn't take

time to...

F: Yeah. Would you like to be involved in some kind of extra-carriculars

here, or do you feel you have the time ?

J: Hmmm...yeah, I started to, uh, join the track team, try to join the track

team...

F: Um huh.

J: 'Cus---because one of the guys who stays where I stay, uh, he's in the

triple jump, but he's one---

F: What's his name ?

J: Grover Howard. And there's another one, uh, his last name is Bolique.

F: Um huh. Did you run track at Fletcher ?

J: No, I didn't do too much. My coach tried to get me to play football,

an---but, uh, see, like the school was so far...I couldn't come to

practice, where I wanted to play, but I couldn't come to practice, I mean,

it would have been too much trouble. My brother tried to get me to get on,

and he told me that the guy would, you know, uh, fix it up, you know, I

guess...pay my whole fair or something...

F: Um huh.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






J: ...you know, to come to practice, but I...I don't know, I just didn't want

to be bothered I guess.

F: What's your best event in track ? What event do you run ?

J: Uh...me ?

F: Um huh.

J: Nothing, but I was thinking about, uh, distance.

F: Have you ever done it before ?

J: No, but I---

F: You just sort of feel that you'd be good at it ?

J: Yes.

F: Um huh.

J: You know, I've, I've, you know, done some running, and I figured I can

hold out pretty good.

F: Well what happened ?

J: I don't know...after while I just, I just thought...let me think a minute...

some reason, I just...

F: Well, that's not a very...ha, ha, that's not a fun thing to do, like seven

miles a day, or whatever. I mean, it's a lot of hard work. But anything

else ?

J: Anything else that I'd like to be doing...or something ?

F: Yeah, o.k.

J: I can't think of any organization on this cam---I don't even know that much

about it.

F: Yeah, but as you said, this is your first quarter, so your probably going

to find out more things.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






J: But anyway, I wouldn't ju---I probably wouldn't join even if I could, even

if I could get on things.

F: Why ?

J: Because some of the people just aren't, just aren't going to accept you,

as a---

F: Join---you mean---you're talking about the track team, or are you talking

about things in general ?

J: Anything. I would have joined the track team, but, I don't know, I just S

kind of...it's just a lot of running...

F: Um huh.

J: ...and stuff like that, so I just shried away from that, but like...I mean,

I'll tell you, if I think, if I was, if I wanted to join some'bf. the

organizations around campus, I thirk, I think that if I had the qualifications,

and...if uh...if I had the money, if I needed money,and everything, if I had,

I think I could join most of the organizations. Well, some of them, I

probably couldn't go into a fraternity row...if I tried...

F: Um huh.

J: I mean I don't know, but I would try...if I wanted to, but I just wouldn't,

I wouldn't do it because...I wouldn't try becauseIjfigure that...even if

I did, and I figure that they probably would let me in, some of the fraternities

might let me in, but what they're going to---the reason they're going to let

me in is because of the Civil Rights Bill. They're going to say that, you

know, "I mean we've got to let him in." And I think that's what a lot of

the white students are saying around here, they got to let us in, but that

doesn't mean that they've got to treat us like another...like they treat

there other, like they treat the rest of the white people.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: I think, you know, some fraternities might be a little different from

others, there are some fraternities that have black brothers in them now.

Did you know that ?

J: No.

F: Yeah, there are...that, that I think, you know, get along very well.

And I, I...

J: Well, there's some people would because...

F: Yeah, but that's true...there're some white kids that feel like most people

in the fraternities don't like them.

J: Yeah, but it's, it's a different thing though...

F: Oh yeah.

J: Like it's a different reason, I mean, they might dislike another person, a

another white person for personal reasons...

F: Um huh.

J: They only dislike me because I'm black. That's the only difference.

F: Have you come into contact with anybody else that got this questionnaire ?

J: I haven't...I didn't ask anybody, no.

F: Um huh.

J: Have you received very many back ?

F: Quite a few. Yeah. I would like to receive all, you know, so I mean I've

really enjoyed talking to you because this is the kind of thing that we

find out. See, because we don't know...about people like you. We know,

well certain people are all the time making speeches, and writing letters,

and...but most black students, like most white students, just don't do

very much, you know, except study, and so we want to get, you know, other

people's ideas about what's happening.

27






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: Anything else that you feel you...you want to talk about ?

J: I think that the biggest, one of our biggest problems here is attitudes,

white attitudes. I think about the biggest problem that we've got to do

is change, is try to change the attitudes, because as long as they have the,

as long as...they keep the attitude they've got, I mean most of the students,

not all of them, I'm just talking in general...

F: Um huh.

J: With these attitudes things just aren't going to be right, because people

just aren't going to like you, and there's always going to be discontent.

As long as people...well, uh...that's one of the big problems. I think

the best, one of the best...one of the best ways we can change the white

attitude is by changing...in high school, some kind of way, trying to you

know. Instead of, like, if they haven't followed...if they haven't

changed the black...I mean the history programs in high school yet, I

don't know anything about it, but I haven't been checking on it, but if

they haven't changed, I don't...I think that's one of the most important

places to start. Instead of turning out all of these people, still turn-

ing out all of these people every year...

F: Umh.

J; That only...I mean that don't know anything about it, you know, Black

History and everything.

F: Are you taking any special Black Courses while you're here ?

J: No, I'm just taking Journalism Courses, and uh, uh, one, uh, Library

Science Course.

F: How many hours are you taking ?

J: Twelve this quarter.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






F: Are you working ?

J: No, I'm, I'm, I was working at the university. They're supposed to start

me working next quarter.

F: What are you going to be doing ?

J: I don't know.

F: Who got you the job ?

J: Well, it's just going to be uh...some kind of student assistantship.

F: Um huh. But I mean, where did you apply for the job ?

J: Uh, Financial Aid Office, I guess.

F: Have you had any contact with the uh, Minority Affairs Office ?

J: No.
F: I see. Well, how, how do you get through school...as far as finances...

mostly your parents ?

J: Well, I've been working part-time, at Santa Fe Junior College, the whole

time, practically the whole time I was there.

F: What did you do for them ?

J: Well, I worked in the Materials Production Department.

F: Oh really ?

J: And I Xeroxed stuff, and ran the Mirrograph-machine---mimiograph...

F: Um huh.

J: The uh...uh, I wish I could think of it...well all of those machines...

F: Yeah, I understand.

J: And then...and I just quit that job as I was coming over here...at the

beginning of the quarter.

F: But for...how are you studies coming, really, are you spending enough time ?

Nobody ever spends quite enough time I don't think.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






J: I think I'm spending enough time doing it.

F: Do the ques...

J: I mean...

F: Go ahead.

J: I'm not in any real danger I don't think, so...

F: Have you had any exams yet ?

J: Um huh.

F: How've you been doing ?

J: Well I passed one in one class, and the next one I didn't do so good on,

and I think I could have passed it, but I didn't uh, I missed an essay.

I don't know, uh, I wrote something on the wrong thing or something...

F: Um huh.

J: ...in one class, and uh,I'm doing all right in one of my courses, my writing

course, and I could have had a 'B' average, but uh...she gave this hand,

this thing with the course outline, I mean the assignments and stuff, and

I hadn't looked at it, and uh, I passed my assignments in late, and she

gave me a 'B-' on one assignment, and a 'B' on---A 'B+' on one, and then

she subtracted 20 points, and that brought it down to 'C' point---I mean

a 'C' average. I made, I had another paper, and I made uh, an 80, I had,

first we wrote the paper, and she made all of us write it over again, and

after I wrote it over, I mean first I made a 56 on it, a 50-something, 56,

she made us all write it over, and I got...

F: Everybody in the class ?

J: Yeah.

F: Why is that ?






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






J: Uh, because we didn't write it, I mean this is a, well...the paper, I

guess it was...most of them were to wordy or something like that, and

she made us write it over.

F: Um huh. Are you planning on taking any special Black Courses ?

J: Huh ?

F: Were you planning on taking any special Black Courses ? They're having

this special Black Litterature Course, special Black History Course, and so

forth; have you spoken to anyone about those ?

J: Not really.

F: Would you be interested in taking something like that ? Then you don't

really know exactly what you want to do yet, as far as, you know, your

occupation. Not for sure. Are you planning on stay---

J: I was...

F: Go ahead.

J: I was thinking about Journalism, Advertising.

F: Um huh.

F: Do you think you'll continue on here ?

J: Uh, yeah, I guess so.

F: Are you going to be here this summer ?

J: I might, If I can get a job I'll work, but if I don't get a job I'll go to

school.

F: You mean in Jacksonville ?

J: Uh, I wanted to get a job maybe in Washington or somewhere.

F: Oh, out of town. Oh, I see. Well...I'm really glad you came back---forget

that...

J: I think one of the biggest problems, is we need more Negro students---because

like, it's, like I can walk all over this campus, and I might not see ten

31






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






J: ...Negros, and this is wha---I think this is part of the reason why a lot

of white students act the way they do, because, I mean, they don't even

see that many of us, and when they do see one, I mean, you're just like a

Martian or something, you, somebody strange, I mean they look at you

funny, and all that kind of stuff, but if there were more Negros here, there

would be more...Negros for whites, different, you know, for whites to come

in contact with, and things would just change.

F: But it's hard for white people to get used to being with black people,

because if you spread black people...there just aren't enough.

J: I know it. There's not, there's no, that's one of the biggest problems here.

F: Um huh.

J: Because now, I think that...if there was enough Negros here things would

change a lot.

F: Now how would you suggest getting more Negros here ?

J: Umh...well I was thinking about it, doing it, with trying to star---started

to do it, try to do something myself. Uh, and I decided to uh, I was going

to, maybe write some letters to som---go to some of the high schools, get

some names...

F: Um huh.

J: ...and write some letters, and really talk to them. Instead of talking to

them in a real business manner...really tell them what the situation is, and,

you know, uh, and uh, try to get some more students to come. Like that, go

to high schools.

F: You know, the Minority Affairs Office is working on that, and maybe you can

get connected with them, because they are---do go out and visit schools, and

talk to black students, try to encourage them to come.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





F: So, now that might be a good idea for you, to get connected with them, and

travel with them. Although you can do it individually, I'm sure. What

about...why do you think black students don't come here for the most part ?

J: Because...because they figure that; number one, there isn't going to be an

...well number one I think would probably be, they figure that they're

going to be...they're not going to be accepted, number one, next, that uh,

there's no social life...

F: Um huh.

J: ...and, there's not much anyway, and they figure that...they figures a Negro

student, a Negro student he doesn't have things to do, you know, and they're

used to having things to do, and they don't have to worry about, you know,

how people treat them, although all the Negros, like if I went to Florida

A.&M. all the Negros there aren't going to fall all over you, and treat you

nice, like that, I mean, but uh, but uh, you, but uh, there are going to be

people th---you know, that you can associate with, and you know, have fun

on a weekend...

F: Um huh.

J: And uh, uh...let me see, I forgot something I wanted to say...I forgot

what I was going to say...something sort of important...well...

F: You were talking about why students don't come here...and you mentioned that

some felt they couldn't go down, and some felt that the social life was

just lacking so much here...

J: And...yes. Uh, th---the reason that, I mean, they aren't going there

because they think everybody is going to fall all over them, but they're

going there because...uh, they know that if...like if I walked by a person

at Florida A.&M., and that person didn't speak to me, it's not because the

person...uh...dislikes me because...if I was Negro.

33






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






F: Yeah. Excuse me just for a second...o.k. somebody got the phone. So it

would be because a partial thing rather than...

J: It would be a personal thing rather than a racial thing.

F: Um huh.

J: Everybody's not going to treat you nice there, I mean, it would be better,

but I don't think...

R-III-NN-G

F: Excuse me. Hello ? Uh, no he's not here...he should be in later on this

afternoon...no, gee, I'm sorry, I, I sure can't tell you that. I don't really

know his schedule this afternoon...Yes, uh huh, would you like to leave...

um huh...

J: I'm the only Negro student most of my life...

F: Huh ?

J: I'm the only, that is, you know, I---know that the people would go there

just because it, because it, uh, thought that people, thaththere would be

that much difference, other than...that you've got a better social life.

F: Um huh.

J: And...let me think a minute.

F: Chances are you'll probably stay on here then ?

J: Yes. And uh...let me see what else I wanted to say. Yes, I have a friend

who's going to Florida A.&M., and when I was th---I seen him, once, when I,

uh, I went home once, and I seen him, and I mentioned that I was going to

the University of Florida, and he...he didn't say too much about it, you

know, he just, you know, I told him I was going to transfer from Santa Fe,

and I was going to the university...

F: Um huh.






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN





J: He didn't think too much of it, he didn't even...say anything to me.

F: Yeah. Do you think that students at A.&M. sort of resent black students

that come here ?

J: Some of them probably do.

F: Why ?

J: Because hh...I don't know if they resent them...well, in a way...they

would probably infer; that you know, that you're trying to..let's see...

that you think that maybe that black schools, that black schools aren't

good enough, and...

F: Um huh.

J: ...that you're trying to get in, get in with the white people, you know.

F: Um huh.

J: Something like that.

F: Well, what's your answer to that ?

J: Uh...I think that I'm trying to...you know I'm not trying to...I'm just

trying to uh, I mean, like the white schools are better equipped and so

forth, and they would---they...most of them are better, I mean physically.

F: Um huh.

J: And uh, uh, what we're trying to do is uh, you know, get it so the Negros

can go to any school that they' want to go to, instead of having to go to

Florida A.&M.

F: Exactly.

J: And uh, that's why I come her---I came to the University of Florida.

F: Um huh.

J: 'Cause I mean, I mean, I mean the trend of, this trend of Negros going to

all black schools is changing...






SUBJECT: JIMMIE JACKSON

INTERVIEWER: FREDRICK SHENKMAN






F: Um huh.

J: And I just...I mean, why, why go to a all black school, when uh, you know,

that's, that's not going to last too long I don't think. I'm not sure.

F: Any last comments you want to make ? That's a good...I'll let you go.


COMMENT BY SHENKMAN:


Student felt that after having been at an all white

high school, to go to an all black university would be re-

treating. Some of his friends that have gone to A.&M.

resent his coming to the University of Florida, but he

feels that it's not a question of trying to be white, but

rather a question of trying to take advantage of better

facilities, better faculty, better educational opportunity,

at the university. Reitterated several times that to now,

at this point, to go to an all black school, would

definitely be some kind of regression, and feels the

trend definitely is toward integrated schools, and

blacks going to school with whites, and this is going

to be the trend in the future.


END OF INTERVIEW




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